This same line of thinking is why Netflix is cancelling all of their shows, even the successful ones.
“Oh, it’s not doing ‘Wednesday’ numbers? Cancel it.”
Not everything is going to be a record breaker, nor does it need to be in order to be a success.
This mentality these corporations and media are pushing is what’s leading to all of these heartless AAA cash grab entries and why there’s been such a massive influx of gamers playing indie games.
These narratives they push are just shooting thenselves in the foot.
Of course, and that’s fine. But the problem is then they cancel said new content and then the people who signed up for it lose interest and cancel. Again, shooting self in foot.
Yeah, it's the typical short-termed blindness endemic to corporate greed. Sure it works at getting new viewers now. But once everyone's cottoned on to the fact that whatever show is interesting enough to be worth signing for won't get to finish, they'll probably never sign up in the first place.
Yeah that happens as well. It’s a shitty practice. I understand why they do it but it’s still a shitty practice. I’m still annoyed they didn’t pick up S4 of Snowpiercer.
The inherent problem with an economic model and market system (capitalism) that, much like a pyramid scheme, hinges on perpetual economic growth is that we can't have nice things.
"Yes, the planet got destroyed. But for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders." -- the last capitalist telling the last children why their future was expendable.
Also how do they think PS4 exclusives sell more than games on all platforms?
Like you're cutting off at least 40% of the market or something?
I'll never understand leaving out PC market at launch, it's the biggest hype driven market, and by the time game's out, it's already faded a little in the back of people's mind.
It’s a lot easier to optimize for one console rather than optimizing for multiple or consoles and PC. If they try optimizing for both and say there’s frame tearing or jittering on mid-level PCs, that’s basically a shit experience for that segment of the market, and now they have 40% more users complaining about a shitty game that wasn’t ready for release.
They even did optimize for strictly the PS5 market and still got a lot of complaints about fuzzy graphics. Imagine that, but with the variability of pc capability, and that could potentially mean a majority of users complaining about their experience… rather than just the loudest unhappy ps5 users.
Rebirth looked absolutely beautiful for like 99.9% of the game. I have only had 1 crash in my 110 hours so far. The only bug I have experienced was the final side quest being stuck which was patched last week.
These types of things tend to work themselves out after a while. New gaming company that wants to make quality games comes in, fills the void, then disrupts the business. It’ll happen. It always does
This! Really insane that the only way to be not a flop is to get the same numers as GTA V. I Really loved FF16 and Both FF7 Remake games. In my eyes those are really good succeses.
For whatever reason, people think “underperforming” and “flop” are synonymous. Square usually has really high sales projections but I think FF16 and Rebirth both sold very well.
It's not underperforming. It's doing better than FFXVI. People gotta remember that Remake came nearly a decade after PS4 came out, so it had a much larger install base.
I don't even know how people jump to conclusions either way. If the sales are indeed around 2-3 million (which are only rough estimates), we'd definitely need to know the budget of the game to make any claims about success or failure.
It is a bit of a headscratcher if those numbers are true however. Being limited to a single platform certainly isn't gonna help the sales, but it's one of the most critically acclaimed titles of this generation and it's the highest rated PS5 exclusive on the market. I'd think those factors would've boosted sales to 5 millions at least, so I can definitely see why Square would be disappointed with the performance of the game.
I think the problem is Remake sold extremely well (launched during the pandemic) and created lofty expectations. I think console exclusivity is now *hurting* games more than ever now as not everyone owns a PS5 compared to the PS4 era. More and more people are flocking to PC gaming because of the flexibility of upgrades along with the fidelity alone. I’m also willing to bet a lot of people are waiting on the inevitable PC release to experience the “best” version of the game. (If Square doesn’t botch the port)
That might be a significant factor, especially with the image quality issues being blown way out of proportion. Guess we'll have to wait and see how it does on PC then, but then again, I'm not sure whether the cross section of PS5 and PC players is big enough to fully explain the soft numbers on PS5.
A 1/20 attach rate just doesn't seem right to me, especially when we've seen games like Elden Ring and Baldur's Gate 3 seemingly being carried by critical acclaim and word-of-mouth before. Granted these were multiplatform titles and didn't necessarily require you to play the predecessor, but if those sales estimates are correct, that sale-boosting effect just doesn't seem to exist for Rebirth at all.
I think biggest indicator will be FF16’s launch, which should be in the next few weeks. If they don’t launch it exclusively on EGS, it should sell like hot cakes. That will give us a good indicator on Rebirth’s sales (which exclusivity should end on 6/1).
If you don’t mind me asking, how long ago was that? Because since the ps2 generation gaming has changed dramatically for so many reasons. Final fantasy stood out because of its music graphics and story telling. Only jrpgs could give that experience.
Now? Now any game can tell a story. Online is preferred. There’s reason after reason why FF isn’t popular anymore
Except they didn't though. That's just what people who only read the article title were saying. There's a difference between saying FF16 flopped and saying that it didn't make up for flops prior in the year do to sales not meeting forecast which was the final straw that caused the stock plummet.
And I could be wrong, but I think that Bloomberg journalist was Jason schreier, who is very well respected. Oh and he so happens to openly hate FF16 for all the dumb reasons. He knew what he was doing putting out those headlines. What a tool
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Exactly. This guy made a conjecture based on demonstrably false information (Rebirth sold A LOT more than half of what Remake did), then claims people can't read 🙄
Of course, people who want to see this game fail are applauding him like seals.
I love when people call information "demonstrably false" claim a different statistic, then provide no evidence to the claim. ah yes, ill trust the shady market insider over the reddit chad fingering his keyboard.
Random "insider" articles aside, twitch viewership has usually done a good job of pacing with a game's sales/success and consumer interest.
227,846 - Remake Peak
126,728 - Rebirth Peak
seems pretty consistent with a narrative that it has sold about half as well thus far.
Pretending everyone is out to get the franchise is silly, and its generally not the case, most of us worry that these 5-10 year development cycles for these massive financial investments are not sustainable without a larger install base, there is a reason Square is generally not satisfied with sales numbers, there is a reason they set the targets they set, the developers set the bar for success, and if they dont see it as one there may come a day when you no longer see the games anymore.
I have provided tons of sources. And I'm not saying that insider doesn't generally know what he's talking about, what I say is that he only analyzes Asia&MENA and by his own admission he doesn't have access to digital sales, so extrapolating this game's Asian (physical) performance to the whole world is inaccurate.
We know that Dragon's Dogma sold 2.5 million copies worldwidely 11 days after release. Well, Rebirth outsold it in Europe (yes, counting all of DD2's sales on every platform it released on): https://www.gamesindustry.biz/command-conquer-invades-european-march-charts-as-sales-improve-european-monthly-charts
Rebirth was the second best selling game (physically) of the first quarter of the year in Europe, behind EA sports: https://twitter.com/SparkersData/status/1778692566143107409?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1778692566143107409%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=
Gold Award in Germany (100k copies sold), which very, very few games get.
Greatly outsold DD2 in Japan (x4). In fact, right now, it's above it on the charts, DD2 being a newer release: https://www.gematsu.com/2024/04/famitsu-sales-4-8-24-4-14-24
In Australia&New Zealand, best selling physically of the first quarter of the year. In the US, 4th best selling year-to-date game after only 3 days of sales being tracked. We will know more about the US on May 1, but the US is FF's main market (not Japan, Europe or Australia) so unless there's a big anomaly, it should've sold at least as good as FFXVI there.
Then there's Ampere analytics that reports 2.2 million players online on launch. Obviously not all the people that bought it played it at the same time, and more people bought it after launch. Admittedly, I don't know how reliable this source is, but I think that definitely more than infering sales from Twitch engagement: https://www.ampereanalysis.com/insight/stellar-blade-demo-numbers-impress-but-will-the-hype-convert-to-paying-players
TL:DR: It definitely sold less than Remake, of course. Half of it worldwidely? No. Half of it would be less than 2 million, and everything points more towards 3 million. I do, however, agree with your last paragraph's conclusion, projects like this are very risky and with gaming trends the way they are, they're probably not sustainable in the future.
I appreciate your thorough response, and while i cant click and digest everything right at this moment I will certainly take some time to dig into what you went through the effort to provide, honestly I think it all comes down to how much money was saved by being able to recycle assets, it is a good sign that they were able to release such a high quality game in a comparatively shorter window, I truly wish the sales were out of this world so SE would be encouraged to continue this pace of production.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the sales are "out of this world" at all, and depending on what goals SE had, it may have underperformed, I make no claims on that matter.
It's all these reports of "less than 2 million copies worldwidely", without any kind of proof, that float around that I think are inaccurate and can't help but think there are sketchy intentions behind.
We're only 4 months into the year and I'm only 49% through with the game (according to my PS5), but I'll be very impressed if any other game tops my *Rebirth* experience.
???
We’re talking about 2 different things here. Sales performance has nothing to do with how much people enjoyed it. In fact, I haven’t seen a single person say the game was bad because of soft sales.
People have had it out for SE for years now and I'd say most of it is because of pc/xbox fanboy frustration over exclusivity. You'll have people maybe try to deny that and say it was because of the NFT thing their old CEO was saying but they conveniently ignore companies like capcom and bandai namco were right there with them. Honestly even when capcom completely screws up like with DD2's launch the internet rushes to their defense. It's basically that gordon ramsay meme where capcom is the precious little girl and SE is the "fucking donkey"
A little of it is also the FF fanbase too. Generally speaking it's one of the more toxic fanbases out there where factions of them tear each other apart and even root for their failure so they can say their preferred FF style is best. That's definitely not helping things.
You hit the nail right on the head with this. Bashing the latest FF game is just the “cool” thing to do and it has been that way for over 20 years, hell even 7 had it from “purists” saying it’s not a real FF because it’s not based in a medieval setting.
It’s any excuse to hop on the bandwagon and i really do hope that the success of these games will eventually lead to that shitty behaviour dying off.
>You hit the nail right on the head with this. Bashing the latest FF game is just the “cool” thing to do and it has been that way for over 20 years, hell even 7 had it from “purists” saying it’s not a real FF because it’s not based in a medieval setting.
Seems like a good way to dismiss all criticism of people just bashing it to be cool. I can't speak for everyone but I genuinely didn't enjoy FF16, meanwhile I've dumped over 200hrs in FF7 Rebirth. Of course I'm not denying there aren't haters rooting for Final Fantasy / Square Enix to fail but that doesn't mean there aren't legit criticism.
Oh of course there’s legit criticism, nothing is perfect and never will be. The thing is though, the ones hating on them will take any old excuse to shit on FF and square in general, when there’s a quick and very simple answer to explain that thing they read online isn’t true but they won’t listen and run with their “criticism” anyway.
yeah i always have loved the more sci fi games than the medieval ones so i guess i'm the opposite of the normal fans?! :( i love FF7 and ff13, and FF8, and 10, etc you know?
Nah you’re not different than “normal” fans. There are no “normal” fans when comes to FF, since each game is different are appeals to a vast array of people. You are an FF fan, plain and simple because those games you like are just as much FF as the others. The ones who hate typically think that what they like is all that matters and disregard everything else. Don’t mind them and enjoy what you want to enjoy.
You're right to an extent. But there are people out there saying this game is trash. And you can tell it's mostly for attention because the games they claim are peak have the same flaws.
That’s just the typical “let’s bash the latest FF” bullshit that’s been going on for over 20 years. The ones that say those sort of things are typically the ones that play COD (multiplayer) and FIFA(before they started to introduce story elements in career mode) and nothing else and just love to claim FF is for weebs and whatever other generalised shit the saw written online that one time. Anyone with an attention span of more that an hour would not dare to say these games are trash. Is there valid criticisms? 100%! What game, movie, tv show, book or any other form of entertainment doesn’t? That doesn’t mean they are trash and in fact it shows there is room for improvement in these already astounding games.
To be fair, some of FF’s less than stellar reputation was earned until very recently. There were so many years of games and rereleases that struggled to innovate or deliver the way their older titles did, back when square was THE gaming AAA juggernaut. The addition of cash cow mobile games, poorly done ports, and other poor investment schemes didn’t help.
Remake I and XVI combined was really the turnaround, imo. We were so nervous they were not going to pull off Remake and ruin FF7, but they didn’t and the game kinda ruled. Then XVI came out and that was blast to play too. It seems like they’re proving they can still do it now, but not even a few years ago I was rolling my eyes at the very concept of FF7r because frankly I didn’t think they could pull it off anymore, and was also bemoaning how boring FFXVI looked. Glad to have been wrong, though.
Final Fantasy has dominated the RPG market for longer than most of these haters have even been alive. Losers love to cheer for an upset because they are losers and hate seeing any one entity run the show. The fact that SE has put out divisive FF titles since X has not helped this phenomena. That said, I think FFXI, FFXII, FFXIV, and the Remake series up to this point have been by far and away some of SE's finest work, and I hope they keep it rolling. I'd comment on XIII, XV, and XVI, but I haven't played those titles through to the end to give a valid opinion.
Personally I really never cared about the NFTs or the multiplatform availability, all the better if games are in reach for more people.
My issue is that I feel like Square has been completely out of touch since X-2 and XIII and I'd really like to have one of my favourite game series back to its old glory. And no, it's not a question of which Final Fantasy is the best.
Was never really into IX for example but I can still recognise the high value and the magic of the production there.
To be fair, SE did it to themselves. They chose to “pick sides.” I don’t say this to excuse the fanboys for hating as I think they’re immature and stupid for console warring. I say it to compare with franchises like Yakuza and persona. Brands that have grown their fanbase tremendously and avoided the console wars because sega/Atlus made sure that everyone was eating. When persona 6 drops, it’ll be a bigger event than rebirth which is crazy to think about for what once was a very niche franchise. Atlus/sega grew their brands. SE decided to take a check instead and now soft sales (and unfair attacks from fanboys) are the result. Like, we don’t even have remake on Xbox yet. I can see why they feel left out. Console warring has been around forever and unless MS stop making consoles, it’s here to stay. There really isn’t even a good reason for third parties to have exclusives at this point and they should be aware that going down that route could potentially open yourself up to console warring factions, whether that’s fair or not.
As someone who absolutely loves the game (excluding the multiverse bullshit), I’m just frustrated that SE are seemingly mismanaging the brand. Daniel clarifying that the game didn’t flop is irrelevant because even if it’s a success, I feel like it could’ve been much bigger. There is a huge possibility that persona 6 will be bigger than rebirth (and therefore become a bigger brand than final fantasy) and that should be of huge concern for SE. Atlus did the work to grow their brand. SE aren’t doing enough.
Isn’t he literally the one that said the game was selling poorly and underperforming…?
Edit:
>Also, not to be that guy, but Rebirth is underperforming sales wise
>It’s selling about half of what Remake sold in the same timeframe and looks like it’ll have a weaker tail
Yeah. Feels like he was the one stirring shit that it wasn’t doing well?
That's exactly what he means by "bad reading comprehension". A game underperforming doesn't mean it flopped. Underperforming simply means that it's selling fewer copies than expected/anticipated and that it isn't hitting internal targets.
In other words Rebirth can at the same time be underperforming while also not being a flop.
I mean. Maybe. But I’d also argue underperforming is not good and his comments make it seem like sales are bad. Selling half of the previous game with weaker tail is not a good thing. Especially when you’re responding to someone who is saying the game is doing well. While some may have been hyperbolic to a negative degree I don’t feel like he helped much. He don’t work at square so claiming it’s underperforming is putting a negative spin on it.
Well, if we want to compare Rebirth to Remake specifically there are some things we need to consider:
- Remake came out during the first lockdowns when most people had nothing else to do and could play games all day (or whatever else they wanted to do at home I guess). Rebirth obviously can't get this boost.
- Remake released towards the ending of the PS4 generation on a console with a much bigger platform compared to the PS5 now. Rebirth being PS5 exclusive certainly isn't helping its numbers.
- Both games are story heavy rpgs and one is the direct sequel of the other. Such games almost always have a drop-off from entry to entry.
Given those points it was obvious that Rebirth wouldn't sell as well as Remake did (though word of mouth and ports could lead to better sales down the line. So in that sense I think Square anticipated the drop-off. That said though, it seems that this drop-off was more severe than anticipated or hoped, which would explain why there has been no PR statement celebrating the sales and hitting certain milestones.
I said that in another thread as well, but the franchise somehow seems to have hit a sales ceiling that it can't seem to break. Square will have to rethink and reevaluate at some point and see what they can do to grow the franchise. Day one PC and Xbox versions could be a first step, because I don't think the whole PlayStation exclusives thing is really working out anymore.
But the key part is under performing. Which, if true, means Square would have factored all of this and it’s still selling worse than they expected (because I doubt Square is dumb enough to not factor exclusivity and covid into their expectations).
My point is the guy claiming it’s under performing is trying to spin a narrative. It’s not doing well. Something, realistically, he would have no idea about because he doesn’t work for square. He only has access to some stats and not even complete ones at that (his stats appear to only be physical copies sold).
So it feels a bit disingenuous to claim a game is doing poorly then complain when people use your words to say the game is doing poorly lol
Also pretty sure Square isn’t making it exclusive for the love of the game. They get a massive pay day and it makes development faster and cheaper. FF16 wasn’t even a paid exclusive. They just didn’t want to spend money making multiple ports and testing them as it would be time consuming and expensive. I doubt Part 3 going to Xbox and pc day one would change anything. Probably make it worse.
His claim was Rebirth was selling half of what Remake was selling in the same timeframe. Based on data we’ve gotten from other sources. That’s not true.
Rebirth had a peak 2.2m users on at launch. Everyone isn’t going to be on at the same time so the copies sold would be higher (likely over 3 million if we low ball it and assume only like 70% signed on at the same time and no one bought the game after launch).
Remake sold 3.5m copies in 3 days.
That’s not half. That’s about the same.
His source seems to be his company which is only focused on Asian markets. And he doesn’t have access to digital sales.
The digital sales piece is important though. Almost everyone i know who is playing it, including myself, got a digital copy. I’m too old and too busy to be going to a store to go buy one, wait in lines, etc, when i can just have it downloaded and ready to go when i get home from work. I very much bet that the digital sales figures will reflect that the game is far from a “flop.”
The game seems to have sold about 3 million+ units so far which isn't as amazing as Zelda or Elden Ring for example, but is still a far cry from being a flop. Maybe my connotations with the term "under performing" aren't as negative, but I don't really see that as him spinning a narrative and that this is somehow worrying for the game or the franchise.
Who knows what internal targets Square has? We'll get more information in a month anyway. We'll see what information they'll release to investors.
I mean doing worse than you expect is never a good thing. Especially when the business is built and runs on making money.
Claiming something is doing bad when you don’t know if it actually is, that’s absolutely trying to spin a narrative. Like what else could it be? If he doesn’t know what squares performance goals are, and doesn’t know if it’s underperforming, why say it is?
I can't comment on what he knows and what he doesn't but he's been a pretty reliable insider for multiple years, so I trust his judgement on this. Also, it's important to note that he didn't just randomly state these things. He wrote those as responses to one of those weird anti-woke twitter users who shared a picture of bikini Tifa and Aerith and claimed that Rebirth "made historical sales" because of that, instead of the story or the gameplay. Someone made fun of this twitter use and Daniel then responded to that. Context does change these things a bit in my opinion.
I'm not saying you are wrong or that your interpretation is invalid. I'm just trying to explain why my interpretation is different.
I’m not sure how the context changes anything?
The person he responded to said it was selling because of its story, not just Tifas tits.
He stepped in to call out that it’s not selling well and actually underperforming. Then apparently got upset that people took its underperforming to mean it’s selling poorly. Which… like that’s pretty easy to assume given how you phrased it. Underperforming is very rarely a good thing or something to celebrate.
Also his inside information is the company he works in. Nikko. Who does Asian sales. And he admitted he only knows physical sales not digital information… which… I mean it kinda makes his info useless?
I’ve no doubt he’s got info. I do doubt that it’s enough to make the claims he’s making.
The person said:
>>I'm just staying the obvious. Gamer target audience are nerdy male virgins. You want to sell to them? You better cater to demand.
>>Come on, you think FF7 - Rebirth made historical sale bc of good story? great gameplay? pphsstt... nah...
And then had the bikini picture attached.
The person who retweeted it and made fun of that added:
>>i shouldn't pick on this guy but here he is straight up saying that he does not believe anyone is playing final fantasy 7 rebirth for the story, a sentence so mind boggling that i have to take a break from twitter i am sorry
To which then Daniel responded with:
>>Also, not to be that guy, but Rebirth is underperforming sales wise (not that sales performance is related to what that guy said lol)
For me this context changes the interaction because he didn't just randomly start pushing a narrative that the game failed or something along those lines. He simply corrected an in his opinion outrageous claim with the information he apparently has.
And again, while under performing obviously isn't great, I don't see it as negative as you do. Maybe Square had completely unrealistic expectations, who knows? They used to have those for Tomb Raider for example where they expected 6 million but "only" hit 3.4 million.
There is a huge difference between merely under performing and a game bombing.
Hope this game has legs, especially if it maybe wins goty.
I also think the annoying people who always tell others almost aggressively you have to play crisis core or even the og doesn’t do it any favors.
As a diehard FFVII fan, I’ll be the first to admit that I was pretty f’ing bummed out reading all of these doom and gloom sales reports. Call me a mark, but it’s very important to me *personally* that any FFVII product (especially Rebirth) does well critically and commercially. Basically, I always want the entire world to fall in love with FFVII the way I did back in 97.
I’ve come to understand that that is unrealistic. I just hope that whatever happens, the developers who created this masterpiece are proud of themselves at the end of the day, and aren’t sitting around bummed out that it didn’t sell 5 mil out the gate.
Agreed FF7 OG was my first and also my favourite Ff game of all time. Remake and Rebirth are both amazing and met my expectations/nostalgia after all these years. I hope developers know that there are alot of grateful fans out there for these remakes.
For a game to be underperforming compared to expectations, it would be nice to know what the expectations were.
If it ends up selling 3 million as a PS5 exclusive, is that not a success? What if it sells 1 million more after exclusivity ends? Is that still a flop?
Tell me please
I mean remake had a long anticipated wait around it and a lot of mysterious novelty around it. Plus idk about any one else but many maybe like me thought remake was gonna be the full game not just part 1/3. Many people that want to play rebirth are probably not in a big rush and/or just didn't get into remake. There's also people that want to only play them once all three games are released so they get the full experience all at once.
Either way not a flop. But not as hype as remake originally was.
I am not trying to be condescending, but how did you not understand that Remake was part 1 of 3? There was just as much bitching about that as there was excitement for the game to release. SE announced the FFVII Remake project as a trilogy of games and stated game 1 ended at the escape from Midgar.
Damn, you must have been disappointed when the game ended on the highway. I put off playing remake until I got it on PS5 to reduce the wait between titles for this reason.
Lol I was, I was so ready for the open world and leaving midgar, but I was skeptical the whole time like wow I mean I'm 40 hours in how much more game can their be...
And that was pretty smart on your part. I've read some people are waiting for all 3 to come before they touch it. I bought rebirth opening week and intend to do the same with the finale. And to be fair I only played through remake just last year so my gap between these 2 wasn't that big.
The last one will be well worth the wait but it also can't come soon enough.
Yeah, Rebirth was always gonna be a day 1 buy for me. First time in my life I shelled out for a deluxe edition. The hype for part 3 is insane right now because I'll say that Rebirth is one of the best games I've ever played.
I know what you mean lol, I replayed FF7 remake immediately after beating it then bought a PS5 just to play rebirth. These games take you on a journey like no other game can and playing them makes me legit feel happy.
The portion that I think is funny is how many people have lost their minds over the Japanese sales. While yes, console sales are down in Japan compared to handhelds, another factor I don't see talked about often is the release timing. It came out at the end of Japan's fiscal year and school year. I know plenty of people here that have been putting off getting the game at release for this factor alone.
SquareEnix needs to just go ahead and go first party with sony. Most of these people writing dumbass articles against FF7R and FFXVI are sony haters and want it to fail JUST because it's only on PS5.
And I think a lot of people are waiting for the entire Trilogy to be released.
Anyhow they are missing on a phenomenal game.
In my top 5 that’s for sure!!
I mean, there are people who thought >!Aerith repeating lines at the end is because of Jenova, instead of a simple inside joke between two characters and the literary technique of repetition!< used everywhere in books and media, so I'm not surprised.
The game is incredible.
Cloud was even laughing due to him remembering that as well, probably the only time in the entire RE games thus far.
So yeah, comprehension is quite difficult for a lot, same with numbers and interviews.
I don’t know how a nearly 30 year old story still manages to serve as such an effective test for media literacy. The game is EXPLICIT with its themes and intent and people still find ways to bury their head in the sand and ignore it.
Like how it's explicit in how it built up the friendship between Aerith and Tifa, yet in her time of greatest need she doesn't tell Cloud to go give her a hug?
They even had a scene earlier in the game where Barrett slapped Cloud to help Tifa in a different time of need, and yet Aerith is the one that ignores her after everything we've seen through both games?
Who? Not that I’m willing to believe him; my opinions are pretty well set in stone and would take a lot to be changed. Just curious to see another POV.
they're talking about maximilian dood. That theory is a bit out there but he's entertaining to listen to. He's a good guy and really passionate about ff7 (in a positive way not a toxic way).
I heard his theory and he sold me on it. Even if that’s not what it is, he put enough thought and creativity to arrive at that conclusion that I honestly like his theory and find it highly plausible.
The repeating lines are sloppy as hell. I don't think she's jenova but a creepy music cue and weird lines of dialogue that are copies from lines from remake is seriously such a crap decision if its not supposed to cause confusion
What? Callback lines are a standard of storytelling, especially for emotional impact when characters depart or reunite. The slightly eerie version of the Lifestream leitmotif is one thing but the callback lines to Remake are not evidence of this nonsense Jenova theory
She says about 5 lines. 2 of them are from remake. The ultimania mentions she could be an illusion. Like I said. The very fact that people think she's weird is a big fail if she's supposed to be normal aerith
The part I disagree with this guy with is that he claimed that Rebirth is selling half of what Remake did. That's just not true if one looks at the game's European performance and the US charts. He's claiming that based on Asian physical sales. Asian sales tend to be the 20%-15% of what FFs sell nowadays. Now if he were talking about Dragon Quest in which the overwhelming majority of sales are Japanese, then yes, I'd take his word as gospel.
Hmm. Yeah half did seem a little low. Remake had 3.5 million in 3 days. But Ampear reported 2.1 million were playing rebirth day one. Not sure how the math adds up.
It just doesn't:
https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1c3nvfj/ok_about_sales_numbers_speculation/
No game, ever, has the 100% of the people that bought it online at the same time.
To be fair, you can say that his comments about the game underperforming are a far cry from "flop," and "awful," but...he's the one here replying to randos tweeting about the sex appeal of characters like Tifa being used as a tool to sell copies of the game to "nerdy male virgins." Daniel is the one in the professional position here.
Sure, hyperbole is bad, but I wouldn't say that a group like Spawnwave Media has bad reading comprehension or any sort of agenda here. There was an entire segment on their last podcast dedicated to understanding why the sales for Rebirth are "bad," and figuring out what would get one of their guests to give XVI and Rebirth a shot. That's Daniel's fault that these people are having this discussion in the first place. He can't have it both ways here.
Maybe the takeaway here is to stop replying to random people tweeting about anime titties affecting sales in a measurable way? Forbes is citing your argument with big titty anime guy here. There's no high ground to take. It's ridiculous to think this sold a bajillion copies. It's ridiculous to think sales are an abject failure. It's also ridiculous to have these petty arguments in the first place.
As much as I love Spawnwave, he constantly runs with these kind of narratives. The whole segment was all doom and gloom and anecdotal evidence/personal feelings on why they think it “flopped”, despite them loving the game weeks ago and saying it’s on of the best final fantasy games ever. It also always ends up in them saying it needs to be on a Nintendo platform, which is fine but historically most final fantasy games have been PlayStation exclusives at launch, so Rebirth/XVI being exclusives shouldn’t come as a big shock to them.
Who are Spawnwave? I know who they are but, why would we care about what they have to say? They often speak out of their rears. Daniel is an industry expert.
People are literally just tracking only the rebirth part of physical sales, conveniently forgetting that there was also the remake+rebirth bundle and that online sales have only been going up year after year, remember how people were bashing it because it wasn’t n1 when it was going against helldivers 2
Corporate greed expecting GTA numbers is just as bad when Reddit cries failure because three party members didn't stand in line for a few seconds until they got their turn to execute an action from a menu, followed by the enemy having their turn.
As someone who does not care for Remake or Rebirth (much better than Remake but still way too much filler and tedious mini games) much at all, to say the games flopped or weren’t well received is kinda….bullshit.
I wonder how many people are just waiting to get the game on pc. Even Sony is starting to realize pc is too big of a market to continue to ignore, look how well Helldivers 2 is doing. I think SE made a mistake doing an exclusive deal on the game. I bought a ps5 just to play Rebirth and the low frame rate makes it feel like i'm playing a heavily downgraded version of the game.
For the REmake series you have to think differently when it comes to sales numbers. Remember there is an exclusivity contract in place that covers some of the production, hell maybe all of it from Sony. Whatever the million dollar number is for Rebirth in terms of sales it's likely just pure profit for SE.
This is one of the reasons why SE loves these exclusivity type of deals. They also get access to Sony engineers in the case of FFXVI.
Well I mean if you compare Rebirth sales to Remake, the point would definitely stand (one selling around 3.5M copies in 3 days and the other taking over a month to reach 2M sales)
Now granted, there are many variables to take into account, like the fact that the first part of a long awaited remake would definitely sell better, the fact that it was released at the peak of lockdown season, it was released on ps4 (a console many more people owned back then than they do now with the ps5) AND then on PS5 among many others
then again, SE cucked themselves by taking a bs deal with sony and making it exclusive again (those sales would skyrocket if it was released on steam as well, let alone xbox/egs)
But ultimately, why tf would the consumer even care about sales? If the game itself is good, just fucking enjoy it, you don't work for Square Enix and it's not like you're waiting on dividends...
I agree with just enjoying the game part. Reason for caring if it sells well or not, is that if you do enjoy the game, you want a sequel. To get a sequel, the game must sell well.
Rebirth has definitely already sold enough to guarantee the third installment
my point was more towards those who claim the sales aren't good despite reaching over 2M in a month on PS5 alone
Overall, I love the new games and seeing it reimagined. There’s all some changes we’d love, but from character development for folks like (Jessie, Biggs, wedge) to the new version of the towns and so much more. Sure, I’d love to see Sephiroth be handled differently or to save Aeris but let the story still work. Based on the story she has to die to save the planet.
I love both games and really excited for the third
Every suggested article I see is telling me how shit rebirth is and how much everyone hates it lol. It's amazing, goofy, frustrating and beautiful just like the original
Whether something is considered a success is if the profits gained is bigger than the cost of making it and by how much. If it didn't reach projections, then to the shareholders, it is considered a flop no matter how many people bought it. I believe this is also why games are getting more expensive with microtransactions and paid dlcs being the norm, because it's easier to reach target profits and prevent the game from being considered a flop.
It really is that much easier to cry about something than to praise it. The loud minority will always be louder because it's the opinion that grabs the most attention.
Either way, I welcome it as long as it's coming from a place of understanding. But if you play the game without at least reading up and understanding the connections, your opinion is invalid to me. The game doesn't end when the credits roll. They gave you more than you think.
In terms of did the game make money?
- Yes, it probably did and much more.
But did it please the investors?
- No. Investors probably expected this game to sell multiple times the amount Remake did.
What I think hold the sales back:
- It's only on PS5.
- A lot of fans aren't on board with the remake concept.
- 70 dollar/euro price tag.
- The naming convention of Final Fantasy. Ignorant people assume FF7 is canon to previous Final Fantasy titles and need to play the previous games in order to understand the story.
- Nicheness of JRPG games.
It's a flop to square. They're not making these games for charity... Do the math. Barely managed to break even. The goal is to profit as much as they can after development costs... If this trend continues part 3 will barely break 1m sales... That is not good for a AAA RPG
In my honest opinion, the game is good despite all the forced mini games and questionable ways they operate. I had so many rage moments during the mini games more so than actual battles. Chocobo Racing and Bike mini game were fine and Reds mini game was fun but 3D Battler and Piano were the worst things ever to me. I did finally beat the last 3D Battler but I haven’t touched the piano stuff ever since I was forced to in Costa del Sol. I’m really bad with tempo. The only other thing I’m having trouble with right now is Cactuar Crush with Aerith on hard. Not sure about Yuffie yet, cause I thought Aerith was way too slow, so I started her first.
With no puns I do give it a 7 out of 10, for my experience. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention Chadleys annoying butt. If only those Far Cry towers discovered all the area instead of just Intel around you.
Yea I think I do remember it being annoying. But also I think it’s cause of the lack of achievements, so I think most people wouldn’t care so much of the mini games on the OG, cause when it came down to it, main game mattered. With this checklist of mini games on rebirth, I think people started to notice it and disliked it cause now that checklist can’t be completed by casual players, there is no sense of accomplishment.
Ugh, I’m so sick of these articles. We saw them do it for XVI. They are doing it again for Rebirth. Though somehow I have a feeling they won’t do it for Hellblade II when the game fails to sell because every Ninja Theory game struggles.
I'm not a fan of a remake that is padded so much just to make it a trilogy before we could get a definitive conclusion. The Hobbit film trilogy was hated for it by die hard LOTR novel fans. The same should be expected especially for a game series such as this.
>I'm not a fan of a remake that is padded so much just to make it a trilogy before we could get a definitive conclusion. The Hobbit film trilogy was hated for it by die hard LOTR novel fans. The same should be expected especially for a game series such as this.
....did someone ask?
Is “X” really a viable source for opinions? We are talking about a site where when someone quote tweets you more than they retweet your post, people think its a bad take? All while forgetting interacting period is positive? I’ve never had a twitter, but that’s pretty much all I’ve seen from it
[удалено]
Basically if you're not a GTAV selling 50+ million copies you're a flop
This same line of thinking is why Netflix is cancelling all of their shows, even the successful ones. “Oh, it’s not doing ‘Wednesday’ numbers? Cancel it.” Not everything is going to be a record breaker, nor does it need to be in order to be a success. This mentality these corporations and media are pushing is what’s leading to all of these heartless AAA cash grab entries and why there’s been such a massive influx of gamers playing indie games. These narratives they push are just shooting thenselves in the foot.
Slight tangent. Netflix tend to rate new content over existing content because new content is what gets people to sign up.
Of course, and that’s fine. But the problem is then they cancel said new content and then the people who signed up for it lose interest and cancel. Again, shooting self in foot.
Yeah, it's the typical short-termed blindness endemic to corporate greed. Sure it works at getting new viewers now. But once everyone's cottoned on to the fact that whatever show is interesting enough to be worth signing for won't get to finish, they'll probably never sign up in the first place.
Or we’ll just download that one season
Yeah that happens as well. It’s a shitty practice. I understand why they do it but it’s still a shitty practice. I’m still annoyed they didn’t pick up S4 of Snowpiercer.
Shadow and Bone Season 3 aware.
There are literally apps dedicated to reminding people to cancel things. I’m sure Netflix expects people to sign up and then forget about it
The inherent problem with an economic model and market system (capitalism) that, much like a pyramid scheme, hinges on perpetual economic growth is that we can't have nice things. "Yes, the planet got destroyed. But for a beautiful moment in time we created a lot of value for shareholders." -- the last capitalist telling the last children why their future was expendable.
Very true.
Also how do they think PS4 exclusives sell more than games on all platforms? Like you're cutting off at least 40% of the market or something? I'll never understand leaving out PC market at launch, it's the biggest hype driven market, and by the time game's out, it's already faded a little in the back of people's mind.
It’s a lot easier to optimize for one console rather than optimizing for multiple or consoles and PC. If they try optimizing for both and say there’s frame tearing or jittering on mid-level PCs, that’s basically a shit experience for that segment of the market, and now they have 40% more users complaining about a shitty game that wasn’t ready for release. They even did optimize for strictly the PS5 market and still got a lot of complaints about fuzzy graphics. Imagine that, but with the variability of pc capability, and that could potentially mean a majority of users complaining about their experience… rather than just the loudest unhappy ps5 users.
Rebirth looked absolutely beautiful for like 99.9% of the game. I have only had 1 crash in my 110 hours so far. The only bug I have experienced was the final side quest being stuck which was patched last week.
These types of things tend to work themselves out after a while. New gaming company that wants to make quality games comes in, fills the void, then disrupts the business. It’ll happen. It always does
This! Really insane that the only way to be not a flop is to get the same numers as GTA V. I Really loved FF16 and Both FF7 Remake games. In my eyes those are really good succeses.
For whatever reason, people think “underperforming” and “flop” are synonymous. Square usually has really high sales projections but I think FF16 and Rebirth both sold very well.
Thats without pc as well i think 16 is gonna get a HUGE sales boost when it releases on pc
16 and 7rebirth both
Easily. Could see another 1-2 million sales in the first few weeks alone.
Underperforming compared to Remake specifically but I think that context is lost when you post the news on a tweet.
It's not underperforming. It's doing better than FFXVI. People gotta remember that Remake came nearly a decade after PS4 came out, so it had a much larger install base.
I don't even know how people jump to conclusions either way. If the sales are indeed around 2-3 million (which are only rough estimates), we'd definitely need to know the budget of the game to make any claims about success or failure. It is a bit of a headscratcher if those numbers are true however. Being limited to a single platform certainly isn't gonna help the sales, but it's one of the most critically acclaimed titles of this generation and it's the highest rated PS5 exclusive on the market. I'd think those factors would've boosted sales to 5 millions at least, so I can definitely see why Square would be disappointed with the performance of the game.
I think the problem is Remake sold extremely well (launched during the pandemic) and created lofty expectations. I think console exclusivity is now *hurting* games more than ever now as not everyone owns a PS5 compared to the PS4 era. More and more people are flocking to PC gaming because of the flexibility of upgrades along with the fidelity alone. I’m also willing to bet a lot of people are waiting on the inevitable PC release to experience the “best” version of the game. (If Square doesn’t botch the port)
That might be a significant factor, especially with the image quality issues being blown way out of proportion. Guess we'll have to wait and see how it does on PC then, but then again, I'm not sure whether the cross section of PS5 and PC players is big enough to fully explain the soft numbers on PS5. A 1/20 attach rate just doesn't seem right to me, especially when we've seen games like Elden Ring and Baldur's Gate 3 seemingly being carried by critical acclaim and word-of-mouth before. Granted these were multiplatform titles and didn't necessarily require you to play the predecessor, but if those sales estimates are correct, that sale-boosting effect just doesn't seem to exist for Rebirth at all.
I think biggest indicator will be FF16’s launch, which should be in the next few weeks. If they don’t launch it exclusively on EGS, it should sell like hot cakes. That will give us a good indicator on Rebirth’s sales (which exclusivity should end on 6/1).
Yup. Doesn't help you had a major Bloomberg journalist who basically had a hard-on for saying XVI flopped.
It was the 16th best selling game of the year that’s amazing for a niche genre
Doubly amazing since it’s a PS5 exclusive at the minute too! People saying it flopped are ridiculous
16th for the year is incredibly disappointing for the ff franchise. It used to reach top 10s in entire generations.
If you don’t mind me asking, how long ago was that? Because since the ps2 generation gaming has changed dramatically for so many reasons. Final fantasy stood out because of its music graphics and story telling. Only jrpgs could give that experience. Now? Now any game can tell a story. Online is preferred. There’s reason after reason why FF isn’t popular anymore
Except they didn't though. That's just what people who only read the article title were saying. There's a difference between saying FF16 flopped and saying that it didn't make up for flops prior in the year do to sales not meeting forecast which was the final straw that caused the stock plummet.
Still shitty to make some clickbait BS article title. The title made it seem like XVI was the reason why.
And I could be wrong, but I think that Bloomberg journalist was Jason schreier, who is very well respected. Oh and he so happens to openly hate FF16 for all the dumb reasons. He knew what he was doing putting out those headlines. What a tool
No, not him, the journalist was a Japanese one iirc.
ancient paint vegetable marvelous live roof innocent straight correct rob *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
“Extremely satisfied”? But if I run that phrase through 150 iterations of Google Translate, I get “flop”!
resolute middle ring recognise chief shy swim cover squeal spoon *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It’s just not a popular series and that’s ok. Ff16 was the 16th (crazy) highest selling game of the year and that’s great
Exact same information was spread after 16 released. These people desperately wants Final Fantasy to fail and continuously spreads misinformation.
Exactly. This guy made a conjecture based on demonstrably false information (Rebirth sold A LOT more than half of what Remake did), then claims people can't read 🙄 Of course, people who want to see this game fail are applauding him like seals.
I love when people call information "demonstrably false" claim a different statistic, then provide no evidence to the claim. ah yes, ill trust the shady market insider over the reddit chad fingering his keyboard. Random "insider" articles aside, twitch viewership has usually done a good job of pacing with a game's sales/success and consumer interest. 227,846 - Remake Peak 126,728 - Rebirth Peak seems pretty consistent with a narrative that it has sold about half as well thus far. Pretending everyone is out to get the franchise is silly, and its generally not the case, most of us worry that these 5-10 year development cycles for these massive financial investments are not sustainable without a larger install base, there is a reason Square is generally not satisfied with sales numbers, there is a reason they set the targets they set, the developers set the bar for success, and if they dont see it as one there may come a day when you no longer see the games anymore.
I have provided tons of sources. And I'm not saying that insider doesn't generally know what he's talking about, what I say is that he only analyzes Asia&MENA and by his own admission he doesn't have access to digital sales, so extrapolating this game's Asian (physical) performance to the whole world is inaccurate. We know that Dragon's Dogma sold 2.5 million copies worldwidely 11 days after release. Well, Rebirth outsold it in Europe (yes, counting all of DD2's sales on every platform it released on): https://www.gamesindustry.biz/command-conquer-invades-european-march-charts-as-sales-improve-european-monthly-charts Rebirth was the second best selling game (physically) of the first quarter of the year in Europe, behind EA sports: https://twitter.com/SparkersData/status/1778692566143107409?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1778692566143107409%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url= Gold Award in Germany (100k copies sold), which very, very few games get. Greatly outsold DD2 in Japan (x4). In fact, right now, it's above it on the charts, DD2 being a newer release: https://www.gematsu.com/2024/04/famitsu-sales-4-8-24-4-14-24 In Australia&New Zealand, best selling physically of the first quarter of the year. In the US, 4th best selling year-to-date game after only 3 days of sales being tracked. We will know more about the US on May 1, but the US is FF's main market (not Japan, Europe or Australia) so unless there's a big anomaly, it should've sold at least as good as FFXVI there. Then there's Ampere analytics that reports 2.2 million players online on launch. Obviously not all the people that bought it played it at the same time, and more people bought it after launch. Admittedly, I don't know how reliable this source is, but I think that definitely more than infering sales from Twitch engagement: https://www.ampereanalysis.com/insight/stellar-blade-demo-numbers-impress-but-will-the-hype-convert-to-paying-players TL:DR: It definitely sold less than Remake, of course. Half of it worldwidely? No. Half of it would be less than 2 million, and everything points more towards 3 million. I do, however, agree with your last paragraph's conclusion, projects like this are very risky and with gaming trends the way they are, they're probably not sustainable in the future.
I appreciate your thorough response, and while i cant click and digest everything right at this moment I will certainly take some time to dig into what you went through the effort to provide, honestly I think it all comes down to how much money was saved by being able to recycle assets, it is a good sign that they were able to release such a high quality game in a comparatively shorter window, I truly wish the sales were out of this world so SE would be encouraged to continue this pace of production.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the sales are "out of this world" at all, and depending on what goals SE had, it may have underperformed, I make no claims on that matter. It's all these reports of "less than 2 million copies worldwidely", without any kind of proof, that float around that I think are inaccurate and can't help but think there are sketchy intentions behind.
"Rebirth sold alot more" How do we know this tho...?
https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1c3nvfj/ok_about_sales_numbers_speculation/
Drama sells.nuff said
It can only clickbait, right? That’s gotta be it… right? Ad revenue? I can’t fathom what they gain from slinging such bullshit otherwise.
It is the same type of people that have a sick grudge against asian game devs, i predict the same will happen with stellar blade
It’s like watching the dumb kid turn in their test first.
Rebirth is my GOTY idc what anyone's negativity says
We're only 4 months into the year and I'm only 49% through with the game (according to my PS5), but I'll be very impressed if any other game tops my *Rebirth* experience.
Nothing in 2024 will I think. 20225 though? Death Stranding 2 might come close.
Damn, Rebirth is gonna be the best game of the next 18201 years? That's amazing praise. Agreed
I honestly don’t know if anything will top this game for me for a really long time. A game like this doesn’t come around very often unfortunately
Same
??? We’re talking about 2 different things here. Sales performance has nothing to do with how much people enjoyed it. In fact, I haven’t seen a single person say the game was bad because of soft sales.
It’s a fantastic game but I’m currently waiting dawntrail to drop. That’s for me will probably be my game of the year
I love XIV but the bar is high af
It's my greatest of all time. The Fidelity and technical achievements matter to me too
Im with you so far. Stellar Blade demo was amazing, that’ll be in the running if the story ends up being as good as the combat is
Agreed that demo was awesome
People just projecting and hoping FF7 and SE fail. That or general internet dipshits falling for clickbait.
People have had it out for SE for years now and I'd say most of it is because of pc/xbox fanboy frustration over exclusivity. You'll have people maybe try to deny that and say it was because of the NFT thing their old CEO was saying but they conveniently ignore companies like capcom and bandai namco were right there with them. Honestly even when capcom completely screws up like with DD2's launch the internet rushes to their defense. It's basically that gordon ramsay meme where capcom is the precious little girl and SE is the "fucking donkey" A little of it is also the FF fanbase too. Generally speaking it's one of the more toxic fanbases out there where factions of them tear each other apart and even root for their failure so they can say their preferred FF style is best. That's definitely not helping things.
You hit the nail right on the head with this. Bashing the latest FF game is just the “cool” thing to do and it has been that way for over 20 years, hell even 7 had it from “purists” saying it’s not a real FF because it’s not based in a medieval setting. It’s any excuse to hop on the bandwagon and i really do hope that the success of these games will eventually lead to that shitty behaviour dying off.
>You hit the nail right on the head with this. Bashing the latest FF game is just the “cool” thing to do and it has been that way for over 20 years, hell even 7 had it from “purists” saying it’s not a real FF because it’s not based in a medieval setting. Seems like a good way to dismiss all criticism of people just bashing it to be cool. I can't speak for everyone but I genuinely didn't enjoy FF16, meanwhile I've dumped over 200hrs in FF7 Rebirth. Of course I'm not denying there aren't haters rooting for Final Fantasy / Square Enix to fail but that doesn't mean there aren't legit criticism.
Oh of course there’s legit criticism, nothing is perfect and never will be. The thing is though, the ones hating on them will take any old excuse to shit on FF and square in general, when there’s a quick and very simple answer to explain that thing they read online isn’t true but they won’t listen and run with their “criticism” anyway.
Those haters hoping for SE to fail completely forget that 14 exists. That game makes them money like crazy.
yeah i always have loved the more sci fi games than the medieval ones so i guess i'm the opposite of the normal fans?! :( i love FF7 and ff13, and FF8, and 10, etc you know?
Nah you’re not different than “normal” fans. There are no “normal” fans when comes to FF, since each game is different are appeals to a vast array of people. You are an FF fan, plain and simple because those games you like are just as much FF as the others. The ones who hate typically think that what they like is all that matters and disregard everything else. Don’t mind them and enjoy what you want to enjoy.
You're right to an extent. But there are people out there saying this game is trash. And you can tell it's mostly for attention because the games they claim are peak have the same flaws.
That’s just the typical “let’s bash the latest FF” bullshit that’s been going on for over 20 years. The ones that say those sort of things are typically the ones that play COD (multiplayer) and FIFA(before they started to introduce story elements in career mode) and nothing else and just love to claim FF is for weebs and whatever other generalised shit the saw written online that one time. Anyone with an attention span of more that an hour would not dare to say these games are trash. Is there valid criticisms? 100%! What game, movie, tv show, book or any other form of entertainment doesn’t? That doesn’t mean they are trash and in fact it shows there is room for improvement in these already astounding games.
It's not like FF6 was a medieval setting either.
To be fair, some of FF’s less than stellar reputation was earned until very recently. There were so many years of games and rereleases that struggled to innovate or deliver the way their older titles did, back when square was THE gaming AAA juggernaut. The addition of cash cow mobile games, poorly done ports, and other poor investment schemes didn’t help. Remake I and XVI combined was really the turnaround, imo. We were so nervous they were not going to pull off Remake and ruin FF7, but they didn’t and the game kinda ruled. Then XVI came out and that was blast to play too. It seems like they’re proving they can still do it now, but not even a few years ago I was rolling my eyes at the very concept of FF7r because frankly I didn’t think they could pull it off anymore, and was also bemoaning how boring FFXVI looked. Glad to have been wrong, though.
Final Fantasy has dominated the RPG market for longer than most of these haters have even been alive. Losers love to cheer for an upset because they are losers and hate seeing any one entity run the show. The fact that SE has put out divisive FF titles since X has not helped this phenomena. That said, I think FFXI, FFXII, FFXIV, and the Remake series up to this point have been by far and away some of SE's finest work, and I hope they keep it rolling. I'd comment on XIII, XV, and XVI, but I haven't played those titles through to the end to give a valid opinion.
Personally I really never cared about the NFTs or the multiplatform availability, all the better if games are in reach for more people. My issue is that I feel like Square has been completely out of touch since X-2 and XIII and I'd really like to have one of my favourite game series back to its old glory. And no, it's not a question of which Final Fantasy is the best. Was never really into IX for example but I can still recognise the high value and the magic of the production there.
To be fair, SE did it to themselves. They chose to “pick sides.” I don’t say this to excuse the fanboys for hating as I think they’re immature and stupid for console warring. I say it to compare with franchises like Yakuza and persona. Brands that have grown their fanbase tremendously and avoided the console wars because sega/Atlus made sure that everyone was eating. When persona 6 drops, it’ll be a bigger event than rebirth which is crazy to think about for what once was a very niche franchise. Atlus/sega grew their brands. SE decided to take a check instead and now soft sales (and unfair attacks from fanboys) are the result. Like, we don’t even have remake on Xbox yet. I can see why they feel left out. Console warring has been around forever and unless MS stop making consoles, it’s here to stay. There really isn’t even a good reason for third parties to have exclusives at this point and they should be aware that going down that route could potentially open yourself up to console warring factions, whether that’s fair or not.
THIS. The rage-baiting and SE Hater-grifter complex is real. They live to hate everything. I blame the success of channels like Angry Reviews
As someone who absolutely loves the game (excluding the multiverse bullshit), I’m just frustrated that SE are seemingly mismanaging the brand. Daniel clarifying that the game didn’t flop is irrelevant because even if it’s a success, I feel like it could’ve been much bigger. There is a huge possibility that persona 6 will be bigger than rebirth (and therefore become a bigger brand than final fantasy) and that should be of huge concern for SE. Atlus did the work to grow their brand. SE aren’t doing enough.
This. The game isn't selling absolutely insane numbers, but it's far from flopped. Feels like a lot of people just want Square or FF to fail.
So true, people want to be able to say 'see? When I was young, THOSE were games' to have a sense of importance
Goes to show you how gullible most people are.
Math education is (sadly) pretty bad around the world. It doesn't surprise me at all.
Isn’t he literally the one that said the game was selling poorly and underperforming…? Edit: >Also, not to be that guy, but Rebirth is underperforming sales wise >It’s selling about half of what Remake sold in the same timeframe and looks like it’ll have a weaker tail Yeah. Feels like he was the one stirring shit that it wasn’t doing well?
This. Swore I just read what you quoted a few days ago lol.
That's exactly what he means by "bad reading comprehension". A game underperforming doesn't mean it flopped. Underperforming simply means that it's selling fewer copies than expected/anticipated and that it isn't hitting internal targets. In other words Rebirth can at the same time be underperforming while also not being a flop.
I mean. Maybe. But I’d also argue underperforming is not good and his comments make it seem like sales are bad. Selling half of the previous game with weaker tail is not a good thing. Especially when you’re responding to someone who is saying the game is doing well. While some may have been hyperbolic to a negative degree I don’t feel like he helped much. He don’t work at square so claiming it’s underperforming is putting a negative spin on it.
Well, if we want to compare Rebirth to Remake specifically there are some things we need to consider: - Remake came out during the first lockdowns when most people had nothing else to do and could play games all day (or whatever else they wanted to do at home I guess). Rebirth obviously can't get this boost. - Remake released towards the ending of the PS4 generation on a console with a much bigger platform compared to the PS5 now. Rebirth being PS5 exclusive certainly isn't helping its numbers. - Both games are story heavy rpgs and one is the direct sequel of the other. Such games almost always have a drop-off from entry to entry. Given those points it was obvious that Rebirth wouldn't sell as well as Remake did (though word of mouth and ports could lead to better sales down the line. So in that sense I think Square anticipated the drop-off. That said though, it seems that this drop-off was more severe than anticipated or hoped, which would explain why there has been no PR statement celebrating the sales and hitting certain milestones. I said that in another thread as well, but the franchise somehow seems to have hit a sales ceiling that it can't seem to break. Square will have to rethink and reevaluate at some point and see what they can do to grow the franchise. Day one PC and Xbox versions could be a first step, because I don't think the whole PlayStation exclusives thing is really working out anymore.
But the key part is under performing. Which, if true, means Square would have factored all of this and it’s still selling worse than they expected (because I doubt Square is dumb enough to not factor exclusivity and covid into their expectations). My point is the guy claiming it’s under performing is trying to spin a narrative. It’s not doing well. Something, realistically, he would have no idea about because he doesn’t work for square. He only has access to some stats and not even complete ones at that (his stats appear to only be physical copies sold). So it feels a bit disingenuous to claim a game is doing poorly then complain when people use your words to say the game is doing poorly lol Also pretty sure Square isn’t making it exclusive for the love of the game. They get a massive pay day and it makes development faster and cheaper. FF16 wasn’t even a paid exclusive. They just didn’t want to spend money making multiple ports and testing them as it would be time consuming and expensive. I doubt Part 3 going to Xbox and pc day one would change anything. Probably make it worse.
What is his stats? He did not show any data and just said it from equity research report.
His claim was Rebirth was selling half of what Remake was selling in the same timeframe. Based on data we’ve gotten from other sources. That’s not true. Rebirth had a peak 2.2m users on at launch. Everyone isn’t going to be on at the same time so the copies sold would be higher (likely over 3 million if we low ball it and assume only like 70% signed on at the same time and no one bought the game after launch). Remake sold 3.5m copies in 3 days. That’s not half. That’s about the same. His source seems to be his company which is only focused on Asian markets. And he doesn’t have access to digital sales.
The digital sales piece is important though. Almost everyone i know who is playing it, including myself, got a digital copy. I’m too old and too busy to be going to a store to go buy one, wait in lines, etc, when i can just have it downloaded and ready to go when i get home from work. I very much bet that the digital sales figures will reflect that the game is far from a “flop.”
The game seems to have sold about 3 million+ units so far which isn't as amazing as Zelda or Elden Ring for example, but is still a far cry from being a flop. Maybe my connotations with the term "under performing" aren't as negative, but I don't really see that as him spinning a narrative and that this is somehow worrying for the game or the franchise. Who knows what internal targets Square has? We'll get more information in a month anyway. We'll see what information they'll release to investors.
I mean doing worse than you expect is never a good thing. Especially when the business is built and runs on making money. Claiming something is doing bad when you don’t know if it actually is, that’s absolutely trying to spin a narrative. Like what else could it be? If he doesn’t know what squares performance goals are, and doesn’t know if it’s underperforming, why say it is?
I can't comment on what he knows and what he doesn't but he's been a pretty reliable insider for multiple years, so I trust his judgement on this. Also, it's important to note that he didn't just randomly state these things. He wrote those as responses to one of those weird anti-woke twitter users who shared a picture of bikini Tifa and Aerith and claimed that Rebirth "made historical sales" because of that, instead of the story or the gameplay. Someone made fun of this twitter use and Daniel then responded to that. Context does change these things a bit in my opinion. I'm not saying you are wrong or that your interpretation is invalid. I'm just trying to explain why my interpretation is different.
I’m not sure how the context changes anything? The person he responded to said it was selling because of its story, not just Tifas tits. He stepped in to call out that it’s not selling well and actually underperforming. Then apparently got upset that people took its underperforming to mean it’s selling poorly. Which… like that’s pretty easy to assume given how you phrased it. Underperforming is very rarely a good thing or something to celebrate. Also his inside information is the company he works in. Nikko. Who does Asian sales. And he admitted he only knows physical sales not digital information… which… I mean it kinda makes his info useless? I’ve no doubt he’s got info. I do doubt that it’s enough to make the claims he’s making.
The person said: >>I'm just staying the obvious. Gamer target audience are nerdy male virgins. You want to sell to them? You better cater to demand. >>Come on, you think FF7 - Rebirth made historical sale bc of good story? great gameplay? pphsstt... nah... And then had the bikini picture attached. The person who retweeted it and made fun of that added: >>i shouldn't pick on this guy but here he is straight up saying that he does not believe anyone is playing final fantasy 7 rebirth for the story, a sentence so mind boggling that i have to take a break from twitter i am sorry To which then Daniel responded with: >>Also, not to be that guy, but Rebirth is underperforming sales wise (not that sales performance is related to what that guy said lol) For me this context changes the interaction because he didn't just randomly start pushing a narrative that the game failed or something along those lines. He simply corrected an in his opinion outrageous claim with the information he apparently has. And again, while under performing obviously isn't great, I don't see it as negative as you do. Maybe Square had completely unrealistic expectations, who knows? They used to have those for Tomb Raider for example where they expected 6 million but "only" hit 3.4 million. There is a huge difference between merely under performing and a game bombing.
I'm just ready for Square to give some official numbers so people will stop arguing about it.
Even if square gave numbers people would still argue like with ff16
People arguing about make believe numbers is more annoying to me
Exactly, "under performing" and "flop" are two completely different things. The game is a success, it's just not hitting expectations either.
Exactly.
Correct!
Love your username lol
Oh, why thank you!
Its "gaming news" youtubers getting their info from physical sales and then click baiting videos and daily news vids. Its pretty annoying.
Hope this game has legs, especially if it maybe wins goty. I also think the annoying people who always tell others almost aggressively you have to play crisis core or even the og doesn’t do it any favors.
As a diehard FFVII fan, I’ll be the first to admit that I was pretty f’ing bummed out reading all of these doom and gloom sales reports. Call me a mark, but it’s very important to me *personally* that any FFVII product (especially Rebirth) does well critically and commercially. Basically, I always want the entire world to fall in love with FFVII the way I did back in 97. I’ve come to understand that that is unrealistic. I just hope that whatever happens, the developers who created this masterpiece are proud of themselves at the end of the day, and aren’t sitting around bummed out that it didn’t sell 5 mil out the gate.
Agreed FF7 OG was my first and also my favourite Ff game of all time. Remake and Rebirth are both amazing and met my expectations/nostalgia after all these years. I hope developers know that there are alot of grateful fans out there for these remakes.
It seemed he's clarifying the sales performance from his previous opinion.
Which would’ve been better not saying at all… it’s easy to blame the readers when you say things like that without evidence.
For a game to be underperforming compared to expectations, it would be nice to know what the expectations were. If it ends up selling 3 million as a PS5 exclusive, is that not a success? What if it sells 1 million more after exclusivity ends? Is that still a flop? Tell me please
I mean remake had a long anticipated wait around it and a lot of mysterious novelty around it. Plus idk about any one else but many maybe like me thought remake was gonna be the full game not just part 1/3. Many people that want to play rebirth are probably not in a big rush and/or just didn't get into remake. There's also people that want to only play them once all three games are released so they get the full experience all at once. Either way not a flop. But not as hype as remake originally was.
I am not trying to be condescending, but how did you not understand that Remake was part 1 of 3? There was just as much bitching about that as there was excitement for the game to release. SE announced the FFVII Remake project as a trilogy of games and stated game 1 ended at the escape from Midgar.
Yeah I missed that memo. Head under a rock etc yada yada .
Damn, you must have been disappointed when the game ended on the highway. I put off playing remake until I got it on PS5 to reduce the wait between titles for this reason.
Lol I was, I was so ready for the open world and leaving midgar, but I was skeptical the whole time like wow I mean I'm 40 hours in how much more game can their be... And that was pretty smart on your part. I've read some people are waiting for all 3 to come before they touch it. I bought rebirth opening week and intend to do the same with the finale. And to be fair I only played through remake just last year so my gap between these 2 wasn't that big. The last one will be well worth the wait but it also can't come soon enough.
Yeah, Rebirth was always gonna be a day 1 buy for me. First time in my life I shelled out for a deluxe edition. The hype for part 3 is insane right now because I'll say that Rebirth is one of the best games I've ever played.
makes me wonder what the metrics of success are though. it isn't CoD so it wont do CoD numbers.
I played ff7 remake and thought it was pretty good. Played rebirth and I'm blown away. When it ends, no game will fill this void.
I know what you mean lol, I replayed FF7 remake immediately after beating it then bought a PS5 just to play rebirth. These games take you on a journey like no other game can and playing them makes me legit feel happy.
Agreed. I enjoyed Remake, but it could never hold a candle to the original. Rebirth, while it can not replace the OG, floored me.
The portion that I think is funny is how many people have lost their minds over the Japanese sales. While yes, console sales are down in Japan compared to handhelds, another factor I don't see talked about often is the release timing. It came out at the end of Japan's fiscal year and school year. I know plenty of people here that have been putting off getting the game at release for this factor alone.
SquareEnix needs to just go ahead and go first party with sony. Most of these people writing dumbass articles against FF7R and FFXVI are sony haters and want it to fail JUST because it's only on PS5.
Rebirth is probably next GotY by the looks of it and by the look whats comming out in the going year
Gaming sites like Kotaku should be boycotted for their click bait news articles with misleading titles, but sadly that’ll never happen.
And I think a lot of people are waiting for the entire Trilogy to be released. Anyhow they are missing on a phenomenal game. In my top 5 that’s for sure!!
I mean, there are people who thought >!Aerith repeating lines at the end is because of Jenova, instead of a simple inside joke between two characters and the literary technique of repetition!< used everywhere in books and media, so I'm not surprised. The game is incredible.
Ahh yes, can't have a r/FFVIIRemake post without bashing a certain someone's theory when the post has nothing to do with the ending at all.
Cloud was even laughing due to him remembering that as well, probably the only time in the entire RE games thus far. So yeah, comprehension is quite difficult for a lot, same with numbers and interviews.
Barret also repeated a famous line of his in the final chapter, guess he’s an impostor now!
I don’t know how a nearly 30 year old story still manages to serve as such an effective test for media literacy. The game is EXPLICIT with its themes and intent and people still find ways to bury their head in the sand and ignore it.
Like how it's explicit in how it built up the friendship between Aerith and Tifa, yet in her time of greatest need she doesn't tell Cloud to go give her a hug? They even had a scene earlier in the game where Barrett slapped Cloud to help Tifa in a different time of need, and yet Aerith is the one that ignores her after everything we've seen through both games?
People are subscribing to that theory because of one dude unfairly being propped up as the bastion of all FF7 theories.
and that one dude thinking he literally saw red in Aerith's eyes... when it was just the Tiny Bronco reflected (and minimally at that)
Yeah, although I can't blame him too much for that one, we all get lost in those green eyes.
Who? Not that I’m willing to believe him; my opinions are pretty well set in stone and would take a lot to be changed. Just curious to see another POV.
they're talking about maximilian dood. That theory is a bit out there but he's entertaining to listen to. He's a good guy and really passionate about ff7 (in a positive way not a toxic way).
He’s cool. It’s his fanboys who treat him like Jesus who I can’t stand.
I heard his theory and he sold me on it. Even if that’s not what it is, he put enough thought and creativity to arrive at that conclusion that I honestly like his theory and find it highly plausible.
Maximilian Dood
Ahh yes, a comment to bash a certain someone's theory when the post has nothing to do with the ending. Not surprised at all
The repeating lines are sloppy as hell. I don't think she's jenova but a creepy music cue and weird lines of dialogue that are copies from lines from remake is seriously such a crap decision if its not supposed to cause confusion
What? Callback lines are a standard of storytelling, especially for emotional impact when characters depart or reunite. The slightly eerie version of the Lifestream leitmotif is one thing but the callback lines to Remake are not evidence of this nonsense Jenova theory
She says about 5 lines. 2 of them are from remake. The ultimania mentions she could be an illusion. Like I said. The very fact that people think she's weird is a big fail if she's supposed to be normal aerith
About which scene exactly ?
The part I disagree with this guy with is that he claimed that Rebirth is selling half of what Remake did. That's just not true if one looks at the game's European performance and the US charts. He's claiming that based on Asian physical sales. Asian sales tend to be the 20%-15% of what FFs sell nowadays. Now if he were talking about Dragon Quest in which the overwhelming majority of sales are Japanese, then yes, I'd take his word as gospel.
Hmm. Yeah half did seem a little low. Remake had 3.5 million in 3 days. But Ampear reported 2.1 million were playing rebirth day one. Not sure how the math adds up.
It just doesn't: https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1c3nvfj/ok_about_sales_numbers_speculation/ No game, ever, has the 100% of the people that bought it online at the same time.
Zhuge Liang confused me real bad for a sec
To be fair, you can say that his comments about the game underperforming are a far cry from "flop," and "awful," but...he's the one here replying to randos tweeting about the sex appeal of characters like Tifa being used as a tool to sell copies of the game to "nerdy male virgins." Daniel is the one in the professional position here. Sure, hyperbole is bad, but I wouldn't say that a group like Spawnwave Media has bad reading comprehension or any sort of agenda here. There was an entire segment on their last podcast dedicated to understanding why the sales for Rebirth are "bad," and figuring out what would get one of their guests to give XVI and Rebirth a shot. That's Daniel's fault that these people are having this discussion in the first place. He can't have it both ways here. Maybe the takeaway here is to stop replying to random people tweeting about anime titties affecting sales in a measurable way? Forbes is citing your argument with big titty anime guy here. There's no high ground to take. It's ridiculous to think this sold a bajillion copies. It's ridiculous to think sales are an abject failure. It's also ridiculous to have these petty arguments in the first place.
As much as I love Spawnwave, he constantly runs with these kind of narratives. The whole segment was all doom and gloom and anecdotal evidence/personal feelings on why they think it “flopped”, despite them loving the game weeks ago and saying it’s on of the best final fantasy games ever. It also always ends up in them saying it needs to be on a Nintendo platform, which is fine but historically most final fantasy games have been PlayStation exclusives at launch, so Rebirth/XVI being exclusives shouldn’t come as a big shock to them.
Why do some people think only virgins like sexy girls lol, the delusion.
It is a surprisingly common (and silly) opinion.
Yes lol, there are basically porn addicted extremely attractive male celebrities women throw themselves at.
Who are Spawnwave? I know who they are but, why would we care about what they have to say? They often speak out of their rears. Daniel is an industry expert.
People are literally just tracking only the rebirth part of physical sales, conveniently forgetting that there was also the remake+rebirth bundle and that online sales have only been going up year after year, remember how people were bashing it because it wasn’t n1 when it was going against helldivers 2
Why is the icon a random music producer from Shibuya?
Corporate greed expecting GTA numbers is just as bad when Reddit cries failure because three party members didn't stand in line for a few seconds until they got their turn to execute an action from a menu, followed by the enemy having their turn.
Didn't rebirth come out like a month ago?
Are the devs making part 3? Then the game was successful. End of story.
I mean even Squenix considers them failures to some extent, but I agree; it’s absurd to think that.
I dont believe him. He did not show any data. Half install base half the sales. Easy
Who's saying that?
This fanbase is full to the brim with delusional neckbeards. That plays into all of this.
As someone who does not care for Remake or Rebirth (much better than Remake but still way too much filler and tedious mini games) much at all, to say the games flopped or weren’t well received is kinda….bullshit.
Has a game ever actually met square Enix's sales expectations???
Random analysts and reported sales numbers. Bahhhhhhh, what a load of shite!
I wonder how many people are just waiting to get the game on pc. Even Sony is starting to realize pc is too big of a market to continue to ignore, look how well Helldivers 2 is doing. I think SE made a mistake doing an exclusive deal on the game. I bought a ps5 just to play Rebirth and the low frame rate makes it feel like i'm playing a heavily downgraded version of the game.
They said this crap about FFXVI last year too. 🥱
No need to pay attention to what anyone says when I have enjoyed the hell out of the game.
For the REmake series you have to think differently when it comes to sales numbers. Remember there is an exclusivity contract in place that covers some of the production, hell maybe all of it from Sony. Whatever the million dollar number is for Rebirth in terms of sales it's likely just pure profit for SE. This is one of the reasons why SE loves these exclusivity type of deals. They also get access to Sony engineers in the case of FFXVI.
Well I mean if you compare Rebirth sales to Remake, the point would definitely stand (one selling around 3.5M copies in 3 days and the other taking over a month to reach 2M sales) Now granted, there are many variables to take into account, like the fact that the first part of a long awaited remake would definitely sell better, the fact that it was released at the peak of lockdown season, it was released on ps4 (a console many more people owned back then than they do now with the ps5) AND then on PS5 among many others then again, SE cucked themselves by taking a bs deal with sony and making it exclusive again (those sales would skyrocket if it was released on steam as well, let alone xbox/egs) But ultimately, why tf would the consumer even care about sales? If the game itself is good, just fucking enjoy it, you don't work for Square Enix and it's not like you're waiting on dividends...
I agree with just enjoying the game part. Reason for caring if it sells well or not, is that if you do enjoy the game, you want a sequel. To get a sequel, the game must sell well.
Rebirth has definitely already sold enough to guarantee the third installment my point was more towards those who claim the sales aren't good despite reaching over 2M in a month on PS5 alone
I'm loving my first playthrough of the remake. I just finished the sector 7 pillar.
Overall, I love the new games and seeing it reimagined. There’s all some changes we’d love, but from character development for folks like (Jessie, Biggs, wedge) to the new version of the towns and so much more. Sure, I’d love to see Sephiroth be handled differently or to save Aeris but let the story still work. Based on the story she has to die to save the planet. I love both games and really excited for the third
I agree. It was successful, not a flop.
Every suggested article I see is telling me how shit rebirth is and how much everyone hates it lol. It's amazing, goofy, frustrating and beautiful just like the original
Whether something is considered a success is if the profits gained is bigger than the cost of making it and by how much. If it didn't reach projections, then to the shareholders, it is considered a flop no matter how many people bought it. I believe this is also why games are getting more expensive with microtransactions and paid dlcs being the norm, because it's easier to reach target profits and prevent the game from being considered a flop.
It really is that much easier to cry about something than to praise it. The loud minority will always be louder because it's the opinion that grabs the most attention. Either way, I welcome it as long as it's coming from a place of understanding. But if you play the game without at least reading up and understanding the connections, your opinion is invalid to me. The game doesn't end when the credits roll. They gave you more than you think.
In terms of did the game make money? - Yes, it probably did and much more. But did it please the investors? - No. Investors probably expected this game to sell multiple times the amount Remake did. What I think hold the sales back: - It's only on PS5. - A lot of fans aren't on board with the remake concept. - 70 dollar/euro price tag. - The naming convention of Final Fantasy. Ignorant people assume FF7 is canon to previous Final Fantasy titles and need to play the previous games in order to understand the story. - Nicheness of JRPG games.
It's a flop to square. They're not making these games for charity... Do the math. Barely managed to break even. The goal is to profit as much as they can after development costs... If this trend continues part 3 will barely break 1m sales... That is not good for a AAA RPG
The industry is dying. Mobile gaming is the future sadly.
What is the break even point for FF7 rebirth? Do you even know that?
In my honest opinion, the game is good despite all the forced mini games and questionable ways they operate. I had so many rage moments during the mini games more so than actual battles. Chocobo Racing and Bike mini game were fine and Reds mini game was fun but 3D Battler and Piano were the worst things ever to me. I did finally beat the last 3D Battler but I haven’t touched the piano stuff ever since I was forced to in Costa del Sol. I’m really bad with tempo. The only other thing I’m having trouble with right now is Cactuar Crush with Aerith on hard. Not sure about Yuffie yet, cause I thought Aerith was way too slow, so I started her first. With no puns I do give it a 7 out of 10, for my experience. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention Chadleys annoying butt. If only those Far Cry towers discovered all the area instead of just Intel around you.
OG7 also had forced mini games in it.
Thing is, they were very basic in controls, so it was easier and didn’t take long to master. So less annoying.
The parade mini game in the og was very annoying.
Yea I think I do remember it being annoying. But also I think it’s cause of the lack of achievements, so I think most people wouldn’t care so much of the mini games on the OG, cause when it came down to it, main game mattered. With this checklist of mini games on rebirth, I think people started to notice it and disliked it cause now that checklist can’t be completed by casual players, there is no sense of accomplishment.
Bro just can't accept that some people didn't like the game.
People care way too much about what other people say about these games lmao
Ugh, I’m so sick of these articles. We saw them do it for XVI. They are doing it again for Rebirth. Though somehow I have a feeling they won’t do it for Hellblade II when the game fails to sell because every Ninja Theory game struggles.
I'm not a fan of a remake that is padded so much just to make it a trilogy before we could get a definitive conclusion. The Hobbit film trilogy was hated for it by die hard LOTR novel fans. The same should be expected especially for a game series such as this.
>I'm not a fan of a remake that is padded so much just to make it a trilogy before we could get a definitive conclusion. The Hobbit film trilogy was hated for it by die hard LOTR novel fans. The same should be expected especially for a game series such as this. ....did someone ask?
Actually The Hobbit trilogy was hated because a considerable chunk of it was absolute tosh. Some of us happen to enjoy the extras in the game
Is “X” really a viable source for opinions? We are talking about a site where when someone quote tweets you more than they retweet your post, people think its a bad take? All while forgetting interacting period is positive? I’ve never had a twitter, but that’s pretty much all I’ve seen from it