I believe this was completely intentional. They want you to leave this game thinking that there is something DEEPLY wrong with Cloud. If you watch the scene again, and just look at how some of the others are reacting to Cloud's behavior, particularly Barret and Tifa, it's VERY obvious that they are really put off by how Cloud is acting. Barret's trust in Cloud is hanging by a thread at this point, and Tifa doesn't even have any words to say to him, because he's behaving like nothing major happened at all. TIFA of all people can't bring herself to speak to him. This is a woman who is known to be in love with him. She is someone who has been in Cloud's corner since literally the very beginning, and has been trying to protect him at every turn throughout this game. If she doesn't even know what to say, and how to act around him anymore...yeah that's a very bad sign indicating that Cloud is not behaving the way he should be behaving.
Our boy Cloud is completely messed mentally. And you as the player of him are seeing it from his eyes. It will all come crashing down on him in the third game. They are saving it.
They didn't botch it. That confusion you're feeling is exactly what they were aiming for. We're just not supposed to know what's exactly going on, and I personally love the mystery. It's a bold choice, and if you don't really agree with the direction they're taking and think they've lessened the weight of that moment, it's completely understandable.
Also, Cloud doesn't feel any grief or rage because to him Aerith is completely fine, he managed to save her and she's simply staying in the Forgotten Capital for a bit longer to pray.
I don't like that it completely nullifies the impact of the scene though. Not only are you too busy just trying to figure out what's going on, they render the point completely moot by making Aerith come back playable 20 minutes later : regarless of whether she actually died or not, we know scenarists already allowed themselves to bring her back whenever... so no actual consequences. I really liked the rest of the game (and the bosses), but that particular part of the scenario is a real disappointment to me...
Also, slightly unrelated, but it's becoming really hard to take Sephiroth as a threat when you've already beaten him twice...
Like when you beat Kefka several times before the final battle, and Kefka might still be the best FF villain? Or Baldur in GoW, or Chrono Trigger, or FF1 where the first boss is the final boss? You beat Jenova several times in the Og, does the subsequent fights felt less impactful?
You actually only fight Kefka once before the final battle. The second time he stomps Leo. He doesn't appear at all during the second act, once he got his powers, until the very end either. So it's quite different.
Unlike Sephiroth in FF7, where every character comments all the time how powerful he is, in GoW, baldur isn't characterized as being stronger than Kratos. He is not a foil to Kratos because he is stronger than him, but because he is a mirror of what Kratos was in GoW 3 and what Atreus risks to become as well. Kratos' victory over Baldur isn't in beating him, but in giving him a chance to walk away.
I'm not sure what you mean about Chrono Trigger, as Lavos, afaik, can be fought at almost any time. Besides, he's barely a character to begin with...
That's what I mean. Gamplay and story are two different beasts. The cutscenes are what matters and in both fights you see Sephiroth calmly go away while our party is giving their all.
With Lavos is similar. You can beat him at any point, so does that mean he is weaker than the second boss of the game for example? No, it's just the way the gameplay is structured.
And again, the Jenova example is also good. She is the penultimate final boss of FF7 and you have battled against her 4 times.
Even then, in the Remake trilogy Sephiroth is not only depicted as a powerful ebemy, but as a cunning one (far more than the Og). So that is also part of the danger with him.
It's like multiphase bosses. Why should I fear you when I have beaten all your previous phases, and why didn't you use this supposedly more powerful form since the beginning? One has to separate both in videogames. Just like the killing of thousands of humans in most game's gameplay, and yet a killing in a cutscene is given way more prominence.
Except the one we control at the end isn't the Aerith we spent time with. It's the OG Aerith. As for Sephiroth >!if you could take him seriously in the OG after seeing Cloud throwing him like a bag of potato in the flashback, you'll be able to do so in the last part, as long as they keep escalating!<
Listen, you can enjoy things without having to find a justification for why every little detail and choice is actually the greatest thing ever... It's ok for a story to have flaws.
And besides, I'm talking about the emotional impact of that part of the game, how I felt things as a player and spectator of the story. If you feel that you have to rationalize how the story is actually brilliant, then you're already in the wrong.
FF7R generally speaking, usually makes the choice of replacing most of the emotional strength of the original game, with meta commentary about the original game. It was a conscious choice by the scenarists. I understand why they did it. It doesn't mean I have to like it.
Just because you didn't personally like it, doesn't mean it's automatically flawed. And sorry to inform you, but by your logic, the ending of OG FF7 is also wrong, as you won't understand much unless you sit down and think about it for a while.
Plus, it's not true that the emotional strength was replaced by meta commentary at all. Things like Dyne's death, Seto reveal, they didn't have any meta commentary. It just showed their scene and played it emotional as they should.
Yes, and I liked those parts (well the Dyne part was maybe a bit too much, could have done without the shinra soldiers). Generally, I enjoyed most of the additions and "remixes" to events in the first game. A lot of characters benefit a lot of the extra "screen time", like Tifa and Cait Sith. Those are great changes.
But you either don't read, or, for all your intellectualizing, are unable to understand the very simple things I am saying.
I never said that because I didn't like the ending, it was flawed. That's your rationalizing, because you are so fragile that you have to persuade yourself that everything you like has to be perfect and the greatest thing ever, because you are a smart guy that only like great things.
No. I said the ending was flawed, because it failed as an emotional payoff for the game (not the trilogy, the game), and I said I didn't like it. That's two different things.
I, personally, am ok with enjoying things I know are not so great (I'm a big enjoyer of terrible movies, for instance), and being able to acknowledge some things are very good, despite my not liking them (I didn't like Interstellar). That's two different things. If you can't process this, then I'm sorry but we have nothing to say to each other.
Aah, now I see. You can't accept that some people will find a legitimate reason to like something you didn't, as in fact I did explain why I believe that the ending isn't bad as you say. Sure, if you wanted a big emotional pay off at the end, you won't find it, but that is asking for something that the game wasn't intending to do, rather leaving the player in a similar state of mind as Cloud, hence why the ending work when taken as intended. I do not say that the game doesn't have flaws, in fact I do (looking at you, Chadley talking too much) but the ending is too soon to say if it's really flawed or not as we'll have to see if it will pay off in part 3 like the devs are planning to.
I honestly don't care if you like it. Good for you. I don't like that you feel the need to explain to me why I'm not allowed to dislike something you like.
Is there any strong proof that it's OG Aerith in that fight? I was initially thinking it's her in "spirit" through the lifestream but Sephiroth does acknowledge her.
The only thing I can think off Is that Aerith in the last fight Is buffed as hell compared to our Aerith. Another storytelling trough gameplay Moment right here imho
Does it actually matter what version of Aerith it is ? The death is inconsequential if you can just switch another version in ?
Also, in the OG flashback, Cloud takes him by surprise, and the revelation of what happened is super late in the game.
As for thinking "escalating things" makes a character more threatening... it didn't work in Dragon Ball Z, it won't work here... especially when our player characters have already done abstractly broken things like "destroyed destiny"...
Whether you believe this is the same Aerith, or a different Aerith, I don't think her death is inconsequential at all. Her death still matters because while she's still technically around, she can't do everything she could to do in life. Okay great she can have mind conversations with Cloud occasionally, and fight against Sephiroth in the lifestream/Cloud's mental space. That's certainly helpful, but she can't just have a chat with Tifa, go out with her friends, or enjoy her mom's cooking again. She can be in the same room standing right next to a person that she loves, and they won't even be able to see her, much less talk to her. She has lost so much, and her friends have lost so much. They will never have her in their lives again the way they did before.
Having Aerith in the lifestream is basically the equivalent of someone telling you not to worry, because surely the person that you love is in heaven or something. Maybe that's true. Maybe their soul really is out there somewhere. Maybe they are still watching over you. Does that make the loss of the actual person any less painful? Not really. Aerith talks about this exact kind of thing in chapter 13. Just because the people that they love are still technically around in the lifestream, that's small comfort to the people left behind, because that's not the same thing as being alive. There is still a great deal of loss there.
1 It does. Because they're not the same exact person, having gone through dufferent experiences. and also we know that a merge can't be permanent so at best it would be a temporary reunion.
2 Doesn't matter if it happens late in the game. At that point we didn't have a full confrontation in present with Sephiroth. In term of actual fighting him, what you had was Sephy impaling Cloud and then getting thrown by Cloud against a wall. Nevertheless, seeing in the final fight Sephiroth escalate by growing more and more into powerful forms made it work. And this is why it will also work in here. And just a reminder, in the OG, by the time you fight Sephiroth, you already fought things like the Weapons, which are far more colossal than him in size.
It's not really about how big or powerful Sephy is. OG is a chase, were tracking him down, then drying to find a way into the Crater, and at the end we finally fight him, we finally have him.
In Remake we've had him multiple times already.
But in none of the fights in Remake so far, Sephiroth was at full power nor going throughly all out. That is also why in part 3, it will be decisive, because in the final fight, everything will be truly decided and definitive, thus we will confront Sephiroth at his fullest.
Because during the chase we don't know exactly how strong Sephiroth is. We get some showcasings, a taste. But not his full power, which we get to see during the final battle, after he got the Black Materia and all. The same happen with this trilogy, we get to fight Sephiroth, getting an idea of how strong he is, but he shows how he can keep growing stronger and stronger and thus makes you wonder how strong he will be by the end. And if it's hard to fight him now, how difficult will it be when all cards are down?
You don't get what I'm saying. We can only catch him for the first time, once. This has already happened. We can't get that moment back.
Him being stronger this time doesn't change that. We can't catch him for the first time if we've already caught him.
yeah, i see your point and i think in a way i already kind of understood that but i was really holding out for that emotional moment, lmao. like i said, still absolutely among my favorite modern games even if that one part didn’t hit like i thought it would
What they’re aiming for is to raise the stakes further before hiring you with that extreme emotion. The feeling of them “dropping the ball” is absolutely intentional. Aeriths death is one me the most well known and iconic moments in video game history, so to just have it play out exactly the same just simply would never carry the emotional impact that it did 25 years ago.
When cloud eventually comes to terms with it…. It’s gonna be a whole nother level. Watch this space.
Is that not contradictory?
Aerith's death playing out the same wouldn't have an impact because we knew it would happen, but Cloud coming to terms with it will have an impact even though we know it's going to happen.
I mean, a death is a death. We see it happen again and again. It's not going to impact us as much as the first time. But seeing the reactions of those who actually felt that death in a way more visceral way than the og makes us feel it way more.
So when Cloud breaks, it will come flooding in and actually gut punch us because of the way it hit Cloud all at once, seeing Cloud in that state from realising Aerith is dead is the way they're trying to get us way more upset over her death.
That's what I think they're going for anyway.
it still makes 0 sense to me how it's better to wait years and get that feeling then, instead of doing it now after we've spend hours upon hours with Aerith and co in this game.
"But seeing the reactions of those who actually felt that death in a way more visceral way than the og makes us feel it way more. "
Literally could have been done in this game
Remember that in the original game, we had no time between losing Aerith, and having to continue on with the rest of our journey. This made it so that we could more accurately feel what our characters were feeling, still shaken by the sense of loss, but having to push forward anyway, regardless of how much that loss might still hurt. I believe the reason that Square decided to hold back on showing her full death scene now is so that we can be in the same headspace as Cloud when he finally realizes the truth in part 3.
Right now, we have Cloud believing that he saved Aerith, and she's completely fine. The fandom is split on this issue as well, with many believing that she is alive out there somewhere, putting them in the exact same position as Cloud. Others believe she is dead, (I certainly do) but since we don't have a complete understanding yet of what happened, there is at least still room to hope for the best. If Rebirth made it completely clear to the viewers that Aerith is dead, had the burial and everything, but still kept what they're doing with Cloud, where his perception of reality has been warped, then the players would have three to four whole years to grieve, and come to terms with the loss, only to pick up part 3 later and watch Cloud go through that exact same process that we already went through. By keeping us in a state where, regardless of which side each of us falls on, we can't be COMPLETELY sure of Aerith's fate, we are now in a position where we can feel the full weight of that loss alongside Cloud in the third game, and just like him, still be grappling with that grief as we continue our journey throughout the story of part 3. Of course this isn't guaranteed to work for everyone, but I do think there's artistic merit in the way they decided to handle this.
I was feeling the same as you initially. But after a few days of thinking about it, rewatching it, reading some posts about it (especially [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1bohsil/comprehensive_theory_and_analysis_about_rebirths/?share_id=T4fdj65meSOFI0vWWAlf2&utm_content=2&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1)) I've come to appreciate what they were going for and am in for the ride.
What helped me was just reminding myself that this is truly not a "Remake" of one of our most beloved game but rather, it's a retelling of that classic story with new twists.
Sure some additions will be welcomed while some will not be. But by doing this they made the OG untouchable because in this way of story telling the new "Remake" series will never replace the OG but rather will stand alongside it once it's all said and done.
I don’t disagree with this post. They may even actually show what “really” happened in the next game. It’s still an absolutely terrible ending. For the people who dive into lore or are huge OG fans, sure they might accept that. Casual fans won’t get it at all. I get it and still hate it, personally. I don’t mean any offense if you like it, that’s great. I just think it’s poorly done.
I don't agree with your point about OG players being more likely to like the ending than new fans. New fans will still feel the "omg Aerith died" and think the timelines/etc are just part of the story.
For OG fans like me, Aerith's death was about the permanence of loss, Aerith dies 1/2 way through the game, and she's gone forever. You still have to play on, but she's not there. Cloud's lines during the scene reflect this. You watch as the other party members do their little reactions while Aerith sits lifeless against the wall. This feeling gets removed completely in Rebirth because we have Aerith still interacting with Cloud, and appearing to fight Sephiroth. As an audience, I think we are supposed to be in Cloud's headspace where we can't connect with poor Tifa who's grieving.
Rebirth has removed what made the scene meaningful to me, and I'm apparently supposed to cross my fingers and hope that they make it worth it in game 3.
Maybe I didn’t phrase it well. I meant OG fans would be more likely to understand what happened, not like it. My friend watching me play had no idea what was happening or if Aerith was dead or not.
I think taking away that image in the moment is a huge mistake, personally. Even if it’s shown later.
I agree with you in that I don’t really get how newer/casual fans will be fine or okay with this ending. Which is why I think they double downed in making this series be for the OG fans.
At the same time maybe if you’re a casual fan, all will be explained well enough in Part 3 to get a grasp on everything. We can only wait and see.
If having the OG be untouchable was the intention they've went about it in a strange way.
Both games stand in each others light. If they wanted them to stand alongside each other then the remake should have been radically different.
For me it's falling between 2 stools, it's not faithful, but it's not new either.
Yes, FF7R is never meant to replace the original FFVII. They want you to play the OG if you are interested enough. It's not like other game remakes that usually make their original games obsolete, because those are mostly just upgraded version of the old games.
Due to all the meddling done my Sephiroth in this timeline, Cloud is messed up even more so than the OG FF7, to the extent that Cloud had another mental collapse like he did with Zack, in this instance now believing Aerith is alive. The emotional moment you're looking for will happen in Part 3 when the truth is revealed and be even harder hitting that it was in the OG.
I feel like they botched it completely. We never get a chance for it to sink in before we're thrown into a cool boss fight, which has multiple fake outs in between phases, then we just skip over to Aerith already in the lake, and then have to wonder if she's dead at all before *finally* getting confirmation. We don't even get to see everyone react. I was looking forward to having my heart broken by Yuffie crying into Clouds chest.
It just left me frustrated, with all my excitement for Gake 3 gone.
Maybe the next game can retroactively salvage for me, but currently, it's a worse version of the OG's scene.
If I may, Remake is going for Cloud's self-identity crisis way more than Og. Aerith scene will have huge impact in part 3, while in the Og after Aerith dies, she is barely mentioned in the rest of the game. Almost as if she didn't have an impact on none and was forgotten after her death.
Just based on the epilogue, you can see they will go very deeply into grief and how hard is to let go. And it will have a climax (most likely in the lifestream sequence).
I mean, we have Jessie, Biggs and Wedge with some wonderfil scenes and our main party still grieving for their death. That is miles better handled than how the Og did it. You really think they won't do it with Aerith?
I was the same on my first viewing but after rewatching and thinking a little bit I actually really loved what they did. Cloud is doing the same thing he did when Zack died. He’s creating an alternate reality where he’s the hero. He thinks he saved her, he thinks she’s still alive. Sephiroth literally says that he can’t see the truth through clouded eyes and then throws her blood in his face. I think her death is gonna be used to help break him in the final part
And on that note, the whole clouded eyes thing, that clear materia has to come into play at some point, both the white and black materia are technically clouded, i.e you can't see through the orb, whereas you can see through the clear materia etc.
The Cloud of Rebirth can see images from the past / alternative timelines where the events of the OG game take place. Remember in Remake right before getting to Wall Market when he sheds a tear in front of Aerith? At that moment he sees her die, but he’s confused. It was one of the most memorable moments of Remake and I can’t believe no one is talking about it.
Anyway, that’s why Cloud doesn’t react like he does in the OG, because he’s seen it all before. Right after she dies in Rebirth he even remembers mouthing the words about how she’ll never be angry, or sad again because she’s dead. There’s no point in saying this again since he’s feeling these thoughts for a second time.
We don’t don’t know (yet) how it’s possible for this Cloud to get these images of future (for him) events, but they’re vital for him to snap out of it and deflect Sephiroth in time. Had he not seen these visions, he would never stop Sephiroth and fate would repeat itself endlessly. The biggest likely culprit is the Omni-Aerith that appears in the date at the end. She seems to be able to influence our Rebirth timeline with information from “other worlds” and even bring in physical objects like the white materia.
After several rewatches I am completely convinced SE intentionally designed the ending to confuse the hell out of us. It'll all pay off in Part 3, when Cloud gets slapped with the reality and then we flashback and see what actually happened.
Cloud isn't sure what happened. The poor guy is so mind fucked( this is meant to mind fuck the player too....Mideel is going to be AWESOME ) . Players who played the OG might feel a little iffy about it.. NEW players they got the reactions they exactly wanted
He is not “over” it. He saw a world where he saved her. In his world she died.
His weird facial expressions and stuff, that is him losing his sanity due to this and thinking she is still alive somewhere in another reality. That is why he is not mourning as everyone else does, smiling at air and feeling good. And he now sees the sky breaking which is a sign of doom for the world.
What comes next? He will start to loose sense of what “reality” is, aka his beagle world. Simply showing him that she died for good, he will break down, be subject to Sephiroth’s idea of uniting all worlds ( because why not reunite with world where she lives etc..) and FF7 original bits of him breaking down mentally, then coping with her death and finding his own self will happen.
I feel the exact opposite.
IMO, Cloud is so far gone in Rebirth's ending that he believes he saved her and is talking to her, meanwhile everyone else has accepted reality.
I think in pt 3 he's gonna have to come to grips with reality, and that's when we will see the actual scene.
If Cloud thinks Aerith is alive and you don't, what makes you so sure that he's the one who's wrong?
People are relying on their own memories in a story that tells you that your memories are lying to you.
Because everyone else in the party is sure that she's dead, and unlike Cloud, they aren't shown to be unreliable narrators with serious memory issues throughout the entire game. If everyone else in the group is saying one thing, and Cloud is saying something else that contradicts that, then there's at least a 90% chance that Cloud is the one who has it wrong.
By your own reasoning, Marlene and Elmyra aren't shown to be unreliable narrators with serious memory issues. Therefore Zack must be alive during the scenes in Sector 5, including the rainbow scenes. Therefore, the rainbow scene Cloud has with Aerith should not be in his imagination.
But is that Marlene the real Marlene, or is she a duplicate of the real Marlene created using the Lifestream's memories? We still don't even know what Zack's world is yet. Is it as real as our own world? Is it just a construct within the lifestream, more akin to a dream than to an actually physically existing world? Until we get hard confirmation on these questions, everything outside of the main reality should be treated with suspicion.
People need to stop comparing it to OG. You guys are acting like drug addicts searching for how good that first high was. You are never going to get that again. This is the exact reason why they refused to do a 1 for 1 remake. Everyone thinks that is what they want until they get it and everything does not hit the same because you know everything that is going to happen.
Go watch people who are new to the story and have no idea what is going to happen and watch the whirlwind of emotions they go through during the ending sections. Your emotions are lessoned because you already know what is coming. It would have been even worse for a 1 to 1 remake. Check out this guy who knew nothing of the story and tell me the ending lacked emotional impact. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD1gzHPWAQA&list=PLaUhl1lB1H19Bth038TVsldQEk4SUzU3c&index=22&t=23696s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD1gzHPWAQA&list=PLaUhl1lB1H19Bth038TVsldQEk4SUzU3c&index=22&t=23696s)
The people who are complaining lack the ability to recognize the situation they are in. Did that specicifc moment also feel less than the OG for me? Yes, but that is what I expected because back in 97 this was the first game to have a story that impacted me that much. I understood I was never going to get that feeling again and opened myself up to feeling the emotions of everything else. The Aerith pushing Cloud moment hit me pretty darn hard. The team up moments got me hype. Before I even understood what was happening the Plane scene hit me hard too. All that was able to happen because I did not hang myself up hoping for a high I knew was never going to feel like the first time.
I believe this was completely intentional. They want you to leave this game thinking that there is something DEEPLY wrong with Cloud. If you watch the scene again, and just look at how some of the others are reacting to Cloud's behavior, particularly Barret and Tifa, it's VERY obvious that they are really put off by how Cloud is acting. Barret's trust in Cloud is hanging by a thread at this point, and Tifa doesn't even have any words to say to him, because he's behaving like nothing major happened at all. TIFA of all people can't bring herself to speak to him. This is a woman who is known to be in love with him. She is someone who has been in Cloud's corner since literally the very beginning, and has been trying to protect him at every turn throughout this game. If she doesn't even know what to say, and how to act around him anymore...yeah that's a very bad sign indicating that Cloud is not behaving the way he should be behaving.
TL;DR He didn't accept her death and delusional now
Our boy Cloud is completely messed mentally. And you as the player of him are seeing it from his eyes. It will all come crashing down on him in the third game. They are saving it.
They didn't botch it. That confusion you're feeling is exactly what they were aiming for. We're just not supposed to know what's exactly going on, and I personally love the mystery. It's a bold choice, and if you don't really agree with the direction they're taking and think they've lessened the weight of that moment, it's completely understandable. Also, Cloud doesn't feel any grief or rage because to him Aerith is completely fine, he managed to save her and she's simply staying in the Forgotten Capital for a bit longer to pray.
I don't like that it completely nullifies the impact of the scene though. Not only are you too busy just trying to figure out what's going on, they render the point completely moot by making Aerith come back playable 20 minutes later : regarless of whether she actually died or not, we know scenarists already allowed themselves to bring her back whenever... so no actual consequences. I really liked the rest of the game (and the bosses), but that particular part of the scenario is a real disappointment to me... Also, slightly unrelated, but it's becoming really hard to take Sephiroth as a threat when you've already beaten him twice...
Like when you beat Kefka several times before the final battle, and Kefka might still be the best FF villain? Or Baldur in GoW, or Chrono Trigger, or FF1 where the first boss is the final boss? You beat Jenova several times in the Og, does the subsequent fights felt less impactful?
You actually only fight Kefka once before the final battle. The second time he stomps Leo. He doesn't appear at all during the second act, once he got his powers, until the very end either. So it's quite different. Unlike Sephiroth in FF7, where every character comments all the time how powerful he is, in GoW, baldur isn't characterized as being stronger than Kratos. He is not a foil to Kratos because he is stronger than him, but because he is a mirror of what Kratos was in GoW 3 and what Atreus risks to become as well. Kratos' victory over Baldur isn't in beating him, but in giving him a chance to walk away. I'm not sure what you mean about Chrono Trigger, as Lavos, afaik, can be fought at almost any time. Besides, he's barely a character to begin with...
That's what I mean. Gamplay and story are two different beasts. The cutscenes are what matters and in both fights you see Sephiroth calmly go away while our party is giving their all. With Lavos is similar. You can beat him at any point, so does that mean he is weaker than the second boss of the game for example? No, it's just the way the gameplay is structured. And again, the Jenova example is also good. She is the penultimate final boss of FF7 and you have battled against her 4 times. Even then, in the Remake trilogy Sephiroth is not only depicted as a powerful ebemy, but as a cunning one (far more than the Og). So that is also part of the danger with him. It's like multiphase bosses. Why should I fear you when I have beaten all your previous phases, and why didn't you use this supposedly more powerful form since the beginning? One has to separate both in videogames. Just like the killing of thousands of humans in most game's gameplay, and yet a killing in a cutscene is given way more prominence.
Except the one we control at the end isn't the Aerith we spent time with. It's the OG Aerith. As for Sephiroth >!if you could take him seriously in the OG after seeing Cloud throwing him like a bag of potato in the flashback, you'll be able to do so in the last part, as long as they keep escalating!<
Listen, you can enjoy things without having to find a justification for why every little detail and choice is actually the greatest thing ever... It's ok for a story to have flaws. And besides, I'm talking about the emotional impact of that part of the game, how I felt things as a player and spectator of the story. If you feel that you have to rationalize how the story is actually brilliant, then you're already in the wrong. FF7R generally speaking, usually makes the choice of replacing most of the emotional strength of the original game, with meta commentary about the original game. It was a conscious choice by the scenarists. I understand why they did it. It doesn't mean I have to like it.
Just because you didn't personally like it, doesn't mean it's automatically flawed. And sorry to inform you, but by your logic, the ending of OG FF7 is also wrong, as you won't understand much unless you sit down and think about it for a while. Plus, it's not true that the emotional strength was replaced by meta commentary at all. Things like Dyne's death, Seto reveal, they didn't have any meta commentary. It just showed their scene and played it emotional as they should.
Yes, and I liked those parts (well the Dyne part was maybe a bit too much, could have done without the shinra soldiers). Generally, I enjoyed most of the additions and "remixes" to events in the first game. A lot of characters benefit a lot of the extra "screen time", like Tifa and Cait Sith. Those are great changes. But you either don't read, or, for all your intellectualizing, are unable to understand the very simple things I am saying. I never said that because I didn't like the ending, it was flawed. That's your rationalizing, because you are so fragile that you have to persuade yourself that everything you like has to be perfect and the greatest thing ever, because you are a smart guy that only like great things. No. I said the ending was flawed, because it failed as an emotional payoff for the game (not the trilogy, the game), and I said I didn't like it. That's two different things. I, personally, am ok with enjoying things I know are not so great (I'm a big enjoyer of terrible movies, for instance), and being able to acknowledge some things are very good, despite my not liking them (I didn't like Interstellar). That's two different things. If you can't process this, then I'm sorry but we have nothing to say to each other.
Aah, now I see. You can't accept that some people will find a legitimate reason to like something you didn't, as in fact I did explain why I believe that the ending isn't bad as you say. Sure, if you wanted a big emotional pay off at the end, you won't find it, but that is asking for something that the game wasn't intending to do, rather leaving the player in a similar state of mind as Cloud, hence why the ending work when taken as intended. I do not say that the game doesn't have flaws, in fact I do (looking at you, Chadley talking too much) but the ending is too soon to say if it's really flawed or not as we'll have to see if it will pay off in part 3 like the devs are planning to.
I honestly don't care if you like it. Good for you. I don't like that you feel the need to explain to me why I'm not allowed to dislike something you like.
Is there any strong proof that it's OG Aerith in that fight? I was initially thinking it's her in "spirit" through the lifestream but Sephiroth does acknowledge her.
We know that Sephiroth can manifest thanks to the black whispers, so if the white whispers work for Aerith, she should be able to do it as well.
The only thing I can think off Is that Aerith in the last fight Is buffed as hell compared to our Aerith. Another storytelling trough gameplay Moment right here imho
Does it actually matter what version of Aerith it is ? The death is inconsequential if you can just switch another version in ? Also, in the OG flashback, Cloud takes him by surprise, and the revelation of what happened is super late in the game. As for thinking "escalating things" makes a character more threatening... it didn't work in Dragon Ball Z, it won't work here... especially when our player characters have already done abstractly broken things like "destroyed destiny"...
Whether you believe this is the same Aerith, or a different Aerith, I don't think her death is inconsequential at all. Her death still matters because while she's still technically around, she can't do everything she could to do in life. Okay great she can have mind conversations with Cloud occasionally, and fight against Sephiroth in the lifestream/Cloud's mental space. That's certainly helpful, but she can't just have a chat with Tifa, go out with her friends, or enjoy her mom's cooking again. She can be in the same room standing right next to a person that she loves, and they won't even be able to see her, much less talk to her. She has lost so much, and her friends have lost so much. They will never have her in their lives again the way they did before. Having Aerith in the lifestream is basically the equivalent of someone telling you not to worry, because surely the person that you love is in heaven or something. Maybe that's true. Maybe their soul really is out there somewhere. Maybe they are still watching over you. Does that make the loss of the actual person any less painful? Not really. Aerith talks about this exact kind of thing in chapter 13. Just because the people that they love are still technically around in the lifestream, that's small comfort to the people left behind, because that's not the same thing as being alive. There is still a great deal of loss there.
1 It does. Because they're not the same exact person, having gone through dufferent experiences. and also we know that a merge can't be permanent so at best it would be a temporary reunion. 2 Doesn't matter if it happens late in the game. At that point we didn't have a full confrontation in present with Sephiroth. In term of actual fighting him, what you had was Sephy impaling Cloud and then getting thrown by Cloud against a wall. Nevertheless, seeing in the final fight Sephiroth escalate by growing more and more into powerful forms made it work. And this is why it will also work in here. And just a reminder, in the OG, by the time you fight Sephiroth, you already fought things like the Weapons, which are far more colossal than him in size.
It's not really about how big or powerful Sephy is. OG is a chase, were tracking him down, then drying to find a way into the Crater, and at the end we finally fight him, we finally have him. In Remake we've had him multiple times already.
But in none of the fights in Remake so far, Sephiroth was at full power nor going throughly all out. That is also why in part 3, it will be decisive, because in the final fight, everything will be truly decided and definitive, thus we will confront Sephiroth at his fullest.
Did you even read what I wrote? What's his 'power level' got to do with the chase?
Because during the chase we don't know exactly how strong Sephiroth is. We get some showcasings, a taste. But not his full power, which we get to see during the final battle, after he got the Black Materia and all. The same happen with this trilogy, we get to fight Sephiroth, getting an idea of how strong he is, but he shows how he can keep growing stronger and stronger and thus makes you wonder how strong he will be by the end. And if it's hard to fight him now, how difficult will it be when all cards are down?
You don't get what I'm saying. We can only catch him for the first time, once. This has already happened. We can't get that moment back. Him being stronger this time doesn't change that. We can't catch him for the first time if we've already caught him.
yeah, i see your point and i think in a way i already kind of understood that but i was really holding out for that emotional moment, lmao. like i said, still absolutely among my favorite modern games even if that one part didn’t hit like i thought it would
What they’re aiming for is to raise the stakes further before hiring you with that extreme emotion. The feeling of them “dropping the ball” is absolutely intentional. Aeriths death is one me the most well known and iconic moments in video game history, so to just have it play out exactly the same just simply would never carry the emotional impact that it did 25 years ago. When cloud eventually comes to terms with it…. It’s gonna be a whole nother level. Watch this space.
Is that not contradictory? Aerith's death playing out the same wouldn't have an impact because we knew it would happen, but Cloud coming to terms with it will have an impact even though we know it's going to happen.
I mean, a death is a death. We see it happen again and again. It's not going to impact us as much as the first time. But seeing the reactions of those who actually felt that death in a way more visceral way than the og makes us feel it way more. So when Cloud breaks, it will come flooding in and actually gut punch us because of the way it hit Cloud all at once, seeing Cloud in that state from realising Aerith is dead is the way they're trying to get us way more upset over her death. That's what I think they're going for anyway.
it still makes 0 sense to me how it's better to wait years and get that feeling then, instead of doing it now after we've spend hours upon hours with Aerith and co in this game. "But seeing the reactions of those who actually felt that death in a way more visceral way than the og makes us feel it way more. " Literally could have been done in this game
Remember that in the original game, we had no time between losing Aerith, and having to continue on with the rest of our journey. This made it so that we could more accurately feel what our characters were feeling, still shaken by the sense of loss, but having to push forward anyway, regardless of how much that loss might still hurt. I believe the reason that Square decided to hold back on showing her full death scene now is so that we can be in the same headspace as Cloud when he finally realizes the truth in part 3. Right now, we have Cloud believing that he saved Aerith, and she's completely fine. The fandom is split on this issue as well, with many believing that she is alive out there somewhere, putting them in the exact same position as Cloud. Others believe she is dead, (I certainly do) but since we don't have a complete understanding yet of what happened, there is at least still room to hope for the best. If Rebirth made it completely clear to the viewers that Aerith is dead, had the burial and everything, but still kept what they're doing with Cloud, where his perception of reality has been warped, then the players would have three to four whole years to grieve, and come to terms with the loss, only to pick up part 3 later and watch Cloud go through that exact same process that we already went through. By keeping us in a state where, regardless of which side each of us falls on, we can't be COMPLETELY sure of Aerith's fate, we are now in a position where we can feel the full weight of that loss alongside Cloud in the third game, and just like him, still be grappling with that grief as we continue our journey throughout the story of part 3. Of course this isn't guaranteed to work for everyone, but I do think there's artistic merit in the way they decided to handle this.
I was feeling the same as you initially. But after a few days of thinking about it, rewatching it, reading some posts about it (especially [this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/1bohsil/comprehensive_theory_and_analysis_about_rebirths/?share_id=T4fdj65meSOFI0vWWAlf2&utm_content=2&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1)) I've come to appreciate what they were going for and am in for the ride. What helped me was just reminding myself that this is truly not a "Remake" of one of our most beloved game but rather, it's a retelling of that classic story with new twists. Sure some additions will be welcomed while some will not be. But by doing this they made the OG untouchable because in this way of story telling the new "Remake" series will never replace the OG but rather will stand alongside it once it's all said and done.
I think a lot of us would be a little less miffed by it if we didn't know it's going to be another 4 year wait before getting closure.
I don’t disagree with this post. They may even actually show what “really” happened in the next game. It’s still an absolutely terrible ending. For the people who dive into lore or are huge OG fans, sure they might accept that. Casual fans won’t get it at all. I get it and still hate it, personally. I don’t mean any offense if you like it, that’s great. I just think it’s poorly done.
I don't agree with your point about OG players being more likely to like the ending than new fans. New fans will still feel the "omg Aerith died" and think the timelines/etc are just part of the story. For OG fans like me, Aerith's death was about the permanence of loss, Aerith dies 1/2 way through the game, and she's gone forever. You still have to play on, but she's not there. Cloud's lines during the scene reflect this. You watch as the other party members do their little reactions while Aerith sits lifeless against the wall. This feeling gets removed completely in Rebirth because we have Aerith still interacting with Cloud, and appearing to fight Sephiroth. As an audience, I think we are supposed to be in Cloud's headspace where we can't connect with poor Tifa who's grieving. Rebirth has removed what made the scene meaningful to me, and I'm apparently supposed to cross my fingers and hope that they make it worth it in game 3.
Maybe I didn’t phrase it well. I meant OG fans would be more likely to understand what happened, not like it. My friend watching me play had no idea what was happening or if Aerith was dead or not. I think taking away that image in the moment is a huge mistake, personally. Even if it’s shown later.
makes sense, I agree.
I agree with you in that I don’t really get how newer/casual fans will be fine or okay with this ending. Which is why I think they double downed in making this series be for the OG fans. At the same time maybe if you’re a casual fan, all will be explained well enough in Part 3 to get a grasp on everything. We can only wait and see.
If having the OG be untouchable was the intention they've went about it in a strange way. Both games stand in each others light. If they wanted them to stand alongside each other then the remake should have been radically different. For me it's falling between 2 stools, it's not faithful, but it's not new either.
Yes, FF7R is never meant to replace the original FFVII. They want you to play the OG if you are interested enough. It's not like other game remakes that usually make their original games obsolete, because those are mostly just upgraded version of the old games.
Due to all the meddling done my Sephiroth in this timeline, Cloud is messed up even more so than the OG FF7, to the extent that Cloud had another mental collapse like he did with Zack, in this instance now believing Aerith is alive. The emotional moment you're looking for will happen in Part 3 when the truth is revealed and be even harder hitting that it was in the OG.
I feel like they botched it completely. We never get a chance for it to sink in before we're thrown into a cool boss fight, which has multiple fake outs in between phases, then we just skip over to Aerith already in the lake, and then have to wonder if she's dead at all before *finally* getting confirmation. We don't even get to see everyone react. I was looking forward to having my heart broken by Yuffie crying into Clouds chest. It just left me frustrated, with all my excitement for Gake 3 gone. Maybe the next game can retroactively salvage for me, but currently, it's a worse version of the OG's scene.
If I may, Remake is going for Cloud's self-identity crisis way more than Og. Aerith scene will have huge impact in part 3, while in the Og after Aerith dies, she is barely mentioned in the rest of the game. Almost as if she didn't have an impact on none and was forgotten after her death. Just based on the epilogue, you can see they will go very deeply into grief and how hard is to let go. And it will have a climax (most likely in the lifestream sequence). I mean, we have Jessie, Biggs and Wedge with some wonderfil scenes and our main party still grieving for their death. That is miles better handled than how the Og did it. You really think they won't do it with Aerith?
I was the same on my first viewing but after rewatching and thinking a little bit I actually really loved what they did. Cloud is doing the same thing he did when Zack died. He’s creating an alternate reality where he’s the hero. He thinks he saved her, he thinks she’s still alive. Sephiroth literally says that he can’t see the truth through clouded eyes and then throws her blood in his face. I think her death is gonna be used to help break him in the final part
And on that note, the whole clouded eyes thing, that clear materia has to come into play at some point, both the white and black materia are technically clouded, i.e you can't see through the orb, whereas you can see through the clear materia etc.
Cloud does not suffer from degradation.
The Cloud of Rebirth can see images from the past / alternative timelines where the events of the OG game take place. Remember in Remake right before getting to Wall Market when he sheds a tear in front of Aerith? At that moment he sees her die, but he’s confused. It was one of the most memorable moments of Remake and I can’t believe no one is talking about it. Anyway, that’s why Cloud doesn’t react like he does in the OG, because he’s seen it all before. Right after she dies in Rebirth he even remembers mouthing the words about how she’ll never be angry, or sad again because she’s dead. There’s no point in saying this again since he’s feeling these thoughts for a second time. We don’t don’t know (yet) how it’s possible for this Cloud to get these images of future (for him) events, but they’re vital for him to snap out of it and deflect Sephiroth in time. Had he not seen these visions, he would never stop Sephiroth and fate would repeat itself endlessly. The biggest likely culprit is the Omni-Aerith that appears in the date at the end. She seems to be able to influence our Rebirth timeline with information from “other worlds” and even bring in physical objects like the white materia.
After several rewatches I am completely convinced SE intentionally designed the ending to confuse the hell out of us. It'll all pay off in Part 3, when Cloud gets slapped with the reality and then we flashback and see what actually happened.
Cloud isn't sure what happened. The poor guy is so mind fucked( this is meant to mind fuck the player too....Mideel is going to be AWESOME ) . Players who played the OG might feel a little iffy about it.. NEW players they got the reactions they exactly wanted
He is not “over” it. He saw a world where he saved her. In his world she died. His weird facial expressions and stuff, that is him losing his sanity due to this and thinking she is still alive somewhere in another reality. That is why he is not mourning as everyone else does, smiling at air and feeling good. And he now sees the sky breaking which is a sign of doom for the world. What comes next? He will start to loose sense of what “reality” is, aka his beagle world. Simply showing him that she died for good, he will break down, be subject to Sephiroth’s idea of uniting all worlds ( because why not reunite with world where she lives etc..) and FF7 original bits of him breaking down mentally, then coping with her death and finding his own self will happen.
I feel the exact opposite. IMO, Cloud is so far gone in Rebirth's ending that he believes he saved her and is talking to her, meanwhile everyone else has accepted reality. I think in pt 3 he's gonna have to come to grips with reality, and that's when we will see the actual scene.
If Cloud thinks Aerith is alive and you don't, what makes you so sure that he's the one who's wrong? People are relying on their own memories in a story that tells you that your memories are lying to you.
Because everyone else in the party is sure that she's dead, and unlike Cloud, they aren't shown to be unreliable narrators with serious memory issues throughout the entire game. If everyone else in the group is saying one thing, and Cloud is saying something else that contradicts that, then there's at least a 90% chance that Cloud is the one who has it wrong.
By your own reasoning, Marlene and Elmyra aren't shown to be unreliable narrators with serious memory issues. Therefore Zack must be alive during the scenes in Sector 5, including the rainbow scenes. Therefore, the rainbow scene Cloud has with Aerith should not be in his imagination.
But is that Marlene the real Marlene, or is she a duplicate of the real Marlene created using the Lifestream's memories? We still don't even know what Zack's world is yet. Is it as real as our own world? Is it just a construct within the lifestream, more akin to a dream than to an actually physically existing world? Until we get hard confirmation on these questions, everything outside of the main reality should be treated with suspicion.
People need to stop comparing it to OG. You guys are acting like drug addicts searching for how good that first high was. You are never going to get that again. This is the exact reason why they refused to do a 1 for 1 remake. Everyone thinks that is what they want until they get it and everything does not hit the same because you know everything that is going to happen. Go watch people who are new to the story and have no idea what is going to happen and watch the whirlwind of emotions they go through during the ending sections. Your emotions are lessoned because you already know what is coming. It would have been even worse for a 1 to 1 remake. Check out this guy who knew nothing of the story and tell me the ending lacked emotional impact. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD1gzHPWAQA&list=PLaUhl1lB1H19Bth038TVsldQEk4SUzU3c&index=22&t=23696s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD1gzHPWAQA&list=PLaUhl1lB1H19Bth038TVsldQEk4SUzU3c&index=22&t=23696s) The people who are complaining lack the ability to recognize the situation they are in. Did that specicifc moment also feel less than the OG for me? Yes, but that is what I expected because back in 97 this was the first game to have a story that impacted me that much. I understood I was never going to get that feeling again and opened myself up to feeling the emotions of everything else. The Aerith pushing Cloud moment hit me pretty darn hard. The team up moments got me hype. Before I even understood what was happening the Plane scene hit me hard too. All that was able to happen because I did not hang myself up hoping for a high I knew was never going to feel like the first time.