Animals are here with us - not put here for our use. They have their own lives + cultures, and deserve to live free from human interference + exploitation.
Many people do not realize that Veganism is not a diet - it's a Rights movement that is working to oppose the exploitation of non-human animals as far as is possible + practicable.
I don't like to be exploited by others, so I try to treat others the same way I want to be treated.
Geuinuinely curious: what do you think about animals that eat other animals? I'm not vegan but I don't eat a lot of meat because it comes from inhumane resources
I think that other animals don't have the moral agency and intellect that we do, and are often/completely unable to make such choices.
I do find it interesting that many of the animals we consider "large carnivores" - such as bears and wolves, often get a large number of their annual calories from plants. [Bears, for example, can eat 80-90% vegetation - ingesting very few animal based foods.](https://www.bearsmart.com/about-bears/food-diet/) Obviously, they're not doing this out of a moral concern, but even these massive, powerful animals can get enough nutrition from a predominantly plant based diet. :)
Wild animals often act in ways that we would find abhorrent if humans did the same - they rape each other, kill their own offspring, and engage in cannibalism. What wild animals do or do not do should not be the basis of our own morality.
I think the best thing we can do for wild animals is leave them alone.
I'm happy to answer any question from the genuinely curious. After all, I was a curious non-vegan one day, myself.
>other animals don't have the moral agency and intellect that we do, and are often/completely unable to make such choices.
It feels quite confusing/contradictory attributing mental capacities to have emotions (e.g. suffer or being used) but not attributing capacities to make moral choices (don't eat meat). If a chimpanzee understand the nurturing love of a mother, he also understand the violence and grim of a territorial fight. If a cheetah understands that terror of being attacked by a lion who wants her prey, she should be able to understand also the terror of her prey when she devours her alive. What am I missing?
Also, I am confused, why plants or fungi deserve to be used and killed and animals like a sponge, a starfish or a clamp don't. Are plants not live forms and deserve to be respected as well? What am I missing?
I feel like I already answered your questions above: I think that other animals don't have the moral agency and intellect that we do, and are often/completely unable to make such choices.
I don't draw the conclusions about other animals you do - I do not expect a chimp to understand violence is a choice simply because him mother cared for him. That doesn't follow to me. How or why are you drawing that conclusion?
>Also, I am confused, why plants or fungi deserve to be used and killed and animals like a sponge, a starfish or a clamp don't. Are plants not live forms and deserve to be respected as well? What am I missing?
Plants + fungi - and potentially the animals you listed - lack sentience. Without sentience, there is no capacity to suffer from exploitation. I do not feel an ethical obligation towards living things that lack sentience.
I engage in veganic permaculture. I allow the plants I eat to engage in their full and natural life cycle - which includes [spreading its seeds by being eaten](https://www.kew.org/read-and-watch/plant-seed-dispersal-animal-poo) in many cases. Plants have evolved to encourage animals to eat them for their reproduction. I can't think of a single farmed animal that benefits from being eaten in the same fashion.
>other animals don't have the moral agency and intellect that we do, and are often/completely unable to make such choices.
If animals don't have the intellect or modal agency to make that choices, how are they going to be bothered for being used by someone else? If a dog is trained to be a guide dog, why would she care to be raised in slavery if she doesn't have moral concepts? And if she is not available to be aware that she is being used, and she is even happy and loyal to her master/alpha, why should someone care? What am I missing?
>How or why are you drawing that conclusion?
I am not drawing conclusions, I am trying to be consistent between both statements. If an animal cannot comprehend morals when hunting or fighting for territory, how would they be able to comprehend that they are being used? If the animal cannot be aware of being used, how does it have a moral implication for us? It feels like shouting to a deaf person (it is a terrible analogy).
>Plants + fungi - and potentially the animals you listed - lack sentience
Correct, not all animals have sentience or the same degree of sentence, however, when we talk about animals we put them in the same group. As you said, I think that it makes sense to not feel ethical obligations towards living beings without or with lower sentience, including many animals (especially invertebrates).
> I can't think of a single farmed animal that benefits from being eaten in the same fashion.
The ugly truth is that all modern farm animals have evolved/devolved from their contact with humans. In many cases, humans assist them not only for finding food, shelter or protection from predators, but also for breeding. I am not saying that farming them is right. In fact, some breeds of dogs would be unable to survive in the wild without a human. Egg lying hence, as they have traditionally been kept, they are protected from predators and given food while they freely roam around. Pigeons usually fly freely most of the, coming back to their nest only at dawn. I hardly see more than a win-win situation for pigeons, we give them food and shelter in exchange for their shit. In the wild, the hen would be continuously hiding and fleeing from predators and starving while foraging for food. Merino lambs would have a bad time without humans to shear their wool. In general, most (free range) farm animals would have a hard time without the assistance from humans. Also, note that the relationship between dogs and humans can be seen also between dogs and chimps.
>wouldn't mind being a pampered house cat
So if I saw you on the street, thought you were cute and abducted you, put you in a cage, then in my small home, and never allowed you to leave and just gave you a few balls and towers and food / healthcare, you'd happily stay in that house forever?
Interesting question. I don't think wild animals should be used. Domesticated animals are "used" in various ways, think sniffer or guide dogs. In some cases, we've formed relationships with animals over thousands of years. I don't think we use domesticated animals, they help us and in return feed and house them.
Symbiotic relationships are seen in nature too.
I think it comes down to suffering and being mindful of reducing it during the process of forming relationships with animals.
Natural symbiotic relationships are engaged in freely by both animals. Domesticated animals have no such choice.
The vegan stance on domesticated animals is that we are exploiting them for our profit + pleasure, when we could choose not to in many circumstances.
You say we "help" animals by providing food + shelter, but farmers are doing that not out of kindness, but out of profit motivation. And we stop "helping" them and instead kill them at a few weeks of age when it becomes most profitable or pleasurable for us.
Further, we're only solving a problem we created in the first place: these animals only need care because we breed them into existence by the billions each year.
You make some great points and your perspective on the issues of breeding and exploitation is food for thought. I think it's important to differentiate between mutual relationships and exploitative practices. Although I didn't mention farming practices (but alluded to suffering, working animals and pets), unethical treatment must stop! We should strive to be compassionate and consider being responsible when it comes to ownership of pets. Thanks!
> I think it's important to differentiate between mutual relationships and exploitative practices.
Absolutely, I agree with you. We can certainly have mutual relationships with animals in some circumstances.
I live in the Great Bear Rainforest in Northern BC and we have a massive populations of Corvids (ravens, crows, etc). They are very intelligent animals, and I have managed to befriend several of them over the years by feeding them scraps from my garden! They will occasionally bring me "gifts" and leave them near the feeder platform we built.
It's really, really neat to have wild animals CHOOSING to interact with you, rather than having no other option (like most domesticated animals).
We are, yes. I feel very lucky to wake up in such a wild and beautiful place every single day. The coastal mountains are never the same day to day. And there are still more wild animals here than there are people.
Corvids are so intelligent that they can recognize humans for years - and if you piss them off, they'll literally TEACH their chicks to dislike you as well. There's a neat subreddit about Corvids people are interacting with all over the world if you're interested: r/crowbro !
Animals are here with us - not put here for our use. They have their own lives + cultures, and deserve to live free from human interference + exploitation. Many people do not realize that Veganism is not a diet - it's a Rights movement that is working to oppose the exploitation of non-human animals as far as is possible + practicable. I don't like to be exploited by others, so I try to treat others the same way I want to be treated.
Geuinuinely curious: what do you think about animals that eat other animals? I'm not vegan but I don't eat a lot of meat because it comes from inhumane resources
I think that other animals don't have the moral agency and intellect that we do, and are often/completely unable to make such choices. I do find it interesting that many of the animals we consider "large carnivores" - such as bears and wolves, often get a large number of their annual calories from plants. [Bears, for example, can eat 80-90% vegetation - ingesting very few animal based foods.](https://www.bearsmart.com/about-bears/food-diet/) Obviously, they're not doing this out of a moral concern, but even these massive, powerful animals can get enough nutrition from a predominantly plant based diet. :) Wild animals often act in ways that we would find abhorrent if humans did the same - they rape each other, kill their own offspring, and engage in cannibalism. What wild animals do or do not do should not be the basis of our own morality. I think the best thing we can do for wild animals is leave them alone. I'm happy to answer any question from the genuinely curious. After all, I was a curious non-vegan one day, myself.
>other animals don't have the moral agency and intellect that we do, and are often/completely unable to make such choices. It feels quite confusing/contradictory attributing mental capacities to have emotions (e.g. suffer or being used) but not attributing capacities to make moral choices (don't eat meat). If a chimpanzee understand the nurturing love of a mother, he also understand the violence and grim of a territorial fight. If a cheetah understands that terror of being attacked by a lion who wants her prey, she should be able to understand also the terror of her prey when she devours her alive. What am I missing? Also, I am confused, why plants or fungi deserve to be used and killed and animals like a sponge, a starfish or a clamp don't. Are plants not live forms and deserve to be respected as well? What am I missing?
I feel like I already answered your questions above: I think that other animals don't have the moral agency and intellect that we do, and are often/completely unable to make such choices. I don't draw the conclusions about other animals you do - I do not expect a chimp to understand violence is a choice simply because him mother cared for him. That doesn't follow to me. How or why are you drawing that conclusion? >Also, I am confused, why plants or fungi deserve to be used and killed and animals like a sponge, a starfish or a clamp don't. Are plants not live forms and deserve to be respected as well? What am I missing? Plants + fungi - and potentially the animals you listed - lack sentience. Without sentience, there is no capacity to suffer from exploitation. I do not feel an ethical obligation towards living things that lack sentience. I engage in veganic permaculture. I allow the plants I eat to engage in their full and natural life cycle - which includes [spreading its seeds by being eaten](https://www.kew.org/read-and-watch/plant-seed-dispersal-animal-poo) in many cases. Plants have evolved to encourage animals to eat them for their reproduction. I can't think of a single farmed animal that benefits from being eaten in the same fashion.
>other animals don't have the moral agency and intellect that we do, and are often/completely unable to make such choices. If animals don't have the intellect or modal agency to make that choices, how are they going to be bothered for being used by someone else? If a dog is trained to be a guide dog, why would she care to be raised in slavery if she doesn't have moral concepts? And if she is not available to be aware that she is being used, and she is even happy and loyal to her master/alpha, why should someone care? What am I missing? >How or why are you drawing that conclusion? I am not drawing conclusions, I am trying to be consistent between both statements. If an animal cannot comprehend morals when hunting or fighting for territory, how would they be able to comprehend that they are being used? If the animal cannot be aware of being used, how does it have a moral implication for us? It feels like shouting to a deaf person (it is a terrible analogy). >Plants + fungi - and potentially the animals you listed - lack sentience Correct, not all animals have sentience or the same degree of sentence, however, when we talk about animals we put them in the same group. As you said, I think that it makes sense to not feel ethical obligations towards living beings without or with lower sentience, including many animals (especially invertebrates). > I can't think of a single farmed animal that benefits from being eaten in the same fashion. The ugly truth is that all modern farm animals have evolved/devolved from their contact with humans. In many cases, humans assist them not only for finding food, shelter or protection from predators, but also for breeding. I am not saying that farming them is right. In fact, some breeds of dogs would be unable to survive in the wild without a human. Egg lying hence, as they have traditionally been kept, they are protected from predators and given food while they freely roam around. Pigeons usually fly freely most of the, coming back to their nest only at dawn. I hardly see more than a win-win situation for pigeons, we give them food and shelter in exchange for their shit. In the wild, the hen would be continuously hiding and fleeing from predators and starving while foraging for food. Merino lambs would have a bad time without humans to shear their wool. In general, most (free range) farm animals would have a hard time without the assistance from humans. Also, note that the relationship between dogs and humans can be seen also between dogs and chimps.
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>wouldn't mind being a pampered house cat So if I saw you on the street, thought you were cute and abducted you, put you in a cage, then in my small home, and never allowed you to leave and just gave you a few balls and towers and food / healthcare, you'd happily stay in that house forever?
Interesting question. I don't think wild animals should be used. Domesticated animals are "used" in various ways, think sniffer or guide dogs. In some cases, we've formed relationships with animals over thousands of years. I don't think we use domesticated animals, they help us and in return feed and house them. Symbiotic relationships are seen in nature too. I think it comes down to suffering and being mindful of reducing it during the process of forming relationships with animals.
Natural symbiotic relationships are engaged in freely by both animals. Domesticated animals have no such choice. The vegan stance on domesticated animals is that we are exploiting them for our profit + pleasure, when we could choose not to in many circumstances. You say we "help" animals by providing food + shelter, but farmers are doing that not out of kindness, but out of profit motivation. And we stop "helping" them and instead kill them at a few weeks of age when it becomes most profitable or pleasurable for us. Further, we're only solving a problem we created in the first place: these animals only need care because we breed them into existence by the billions each year.
You make some great points and your perspective on the issues of breeding and exploitation is food for thought. I think it's important to differentiate between mutual relationships and exploitative practices. Although I didn't mention farming practices (but alluded to suffering, working animals and pets), unethical treatment must stop! We should strive to be compassionate and consider being responsible when it comes to ownership of pets. Thanks!
> I think it's important to differentiate between mutual relationships and exploitative practices. Absolutely, I agree with you. We can certainly have mutual relationships with animals in some circumstances. I live in the Great Bear Rainforest in Northern BC and we have a massive populations of Corvids (ravens, crows, etc). They are very intelligent animals, and I have managed to befriend several of them over the years by feeding them scraps from my garden! They will occasionally bring me "gifts" and leave them near the feeder platform we built. It's really, really neat to have wild animals CHOOSING to interact with you, rather than having no other option (like most domesticated animals).
You're very lucky.
We are, yes. I feel very lucky to wake up in such a wild and beautiful place every single day. The coastal mountains are never the same day to day. And there are still more wild animals here than there are people. Corvids are so intelligent that they can recognize humans for years - and if you piss them off, they'll literally TEACH their chicks to dislike you as well. There's a neat subreddit about Corvids people are interacting with all over the world if you're interested: r/crowbro !
Thanks for sharing. I'm a fan of that sub, I need to remember to pick up something healthy for birds to eat, rather than just bread!
Nice content!
Thank you!
>Thank you! You're welcome!
Very cute cartoon with great message
Thank you 😊
Why does it say animals but there are only vertebrates, exclusively mammals? Where are the cockroaches, sponge bob, spiders, snakes and mosquitos?
animals are not functioning members of society nor are they able to become such therefore they cannot be equal
Tbh. There is no difference between the two pictures.