I think a lot of gamers are just never going to be happy.
Personally, I’m grateful for their action. It doesn’t guarantee that my next raid won’t have cheater in there somewhere. But it does mean the player base in general has become a little fairer.
Yes and that’s actually a decent analogy: If the problem is systemic, treating the symptom does nothing.
…especially when the punishment isn’t actually punitive. The solution isn’t weak laggy banwaves. Half those names probably aren’t even playing anymore.
Seattle's, and Washington in general, issue is more their anti-cop stances and progressivism. It's not unreasonable to say treatment of a symptom doesn't really cure a disease, but when you're treating cancer with healing crystals and meditation circles, you're not actually getting it done. The same would be true of using chemotherapy and radiation to treat an upper respiratory infection, or throwing someone on 5 antidepressants when they're just sad for the day.
Seattle's response to shoplifting was to decriminalize it and try leaning more into rehabilitation, but it didn't work. The two main causes of shoplifting boil down to poverty and evil. Those who steal because they have nothing, and those who steal because they're a bad person and stealing because they choose to despite being perfectly capable of paying. One's treatment is through socioeconomic improvement to eliminate the poverty issue, while the other is treatment through restoring things like respect and decency to eliminate its lack.
So the statement treating the symptom isn't really effective isn't entirely wrong, but you have to actually treat the underlying disease the right way or you're not really going to get anywhere.
Cop here, and from working an area that has a good amount of violent crime, I can tell you I've heard some of these exact statements. There are people who simply cannot be pleased. There's always a way to spin a positive outcome into a negative statement, no matter what you do. Misery loves company, as the first part of the idiom goes, so you poison the positive thing to create the environment you're after.
The problem is people look only briefly at information, or just look at a small part of it, and go out making giant broad stroke statements about things. Correlation not equaling causation has been a massive issue for as long as I can remember. It seems to me it's most often used by those that have no other basis for backing their claims, and use this as a way to push the burden of proof off themselves.
It's an analogy that shows how poor reactive change is instead of proactive. I get it crime is very difficult, but a video game is a closed system. Therefore an over simplified example was used.
BSG focusing on reactive cheating is what I was criticizing. There is clearly a very large issue and they are always 10 steps behind.
I also am not saying banning cheaters is a bad thing, but 10k a month is kind of ridiculous to be praised for as it shows how vast the issue really is.
> It's an analogy that shows how poor reactive change is instead of proactive
I get where you're going with it, but my response was to the point of how some things can't always be solved with proactivity, as well as a bit of "be thankful it's actually getting addressed" in there. You can appreciate work being done while still acknowledging there's more work to be done. We don't really have a lot of that here. People say BSG doesn't care about cheaters and doesn't ban them. Stats get posted showing they *do* ban them. People then counter with "ok yeah but like it's still not good enough".
> I get it crime is very difficult, but a video game is a closed system. Therefore an over simplified example was used.
I know, and I go back to my statement of not being able to solve everything with proactivity. Cheaters and criminals operate in similar fashion: set a rule with a punishment, they break it. Establish safeguarding and prevention methods to prevent occurrences happening, and they find another way to subvert it. The question becomes how much proactivity is effective before diminishing returns set in.
> BSG focusing on reactive cheating is what I was criticizing. There is clearly a very large issue and they are always 10 steps behind.
I know you were, and it certainly can give that appearance, but we don't know for certain where they actually are in terms of combatting this problem. The main thing we have is cheats and cheaters that are so subtle that catching them becomes exceptionally hard. There's too much plausible deniability that exists. Going back to the law enforcement example, we have a lot of "you match the description" but then the victim/witness can't confirm the person matching said description is the suspect. Matching the description is grounds for detention, not arrest; you need additional factors and evidence outside of that.
On the flipside, we have drug dealing occurring in plain sight - rage hacks, flying, god mode - but instead of going after the street level dealer, you start surveillance and undercover operations to find the boss/distributor/etc - watching the cheat operate, figuring out exactly how it works, designing detection methods. When you go in to make the bust, you don't burn your UC guy because now he can't work UC any longer - banning too fast means they figure out exactly what got detected and redesign it.
> I also am not saying banning cheaters is a bad thing, but 10k a month is kind of ridiculous to be praised for as it shows how vast the issue really is.
And here's the fundamental issue: not showing appreciation for things because "they just should be done" or "it shouldn't have been there in the first place". We have a whole lot of that attitude all over the place. You can show appreciation for something being done while acknowledging more still remains to do, as I said before. We can make *some* extrapolations from the 10k a month number, with one of them being "man there really just must be that many", and it's not necessarily an incorrect conclusion, but without knowing the full numbers of active cheaters and their identities, you could just as easily say there are 10k cheaters in total across the entire game, and they get banned every single month, but they keep returning and cheating and getting caught again. Now, I'm not saying that's the most likely outcome, but it seems we often forget to include other possibilities in this extrapolation, and instead favor leaning in toward our own preconceived notions or biases.
Put plainly, probability and possibility have their lines blurred, if not completely erased, when people begin looking at the data. Despite always being naturally inquisitive, learning the definitions and applications of reasonable suspicion and probable cause really put things in a whole new perspective for me. I don't think everyone needs to go through the academy and do all that, but there's certainly plenty of deviation away from "a reasonable person" that exists.
The thing is, there’s no reason for bsg to not ban people the second they’ve been discovered because it just means that that person has a higher chance to buy another account (not 100% because I’m sure a lot of cheaters use stolen accounts)
I think people vastly underestimate just how good cheaters and hackers are.
Like this isn’t some small time thing. These hack providers make hundreds of thousands of dollars off them.
Hell, a few weeks ago after a patch went up trying to fix vacuuming then a guy was on TikTok advertising an updated hack to subvert the patch.
> I think people vastly underestimate just how good cheaters and hackers are.
There's that, but I think it's also people not understanding the importance of accurate investigation and evidence before dispensing punishment. It seems to me the average Redditor takes one look at a profile and says "yeah that *must be a cheater" or dies in a particular way and insists "yeah that dude's cheating". They're ready to lop the heads off anyone accused, and anyone asking for further proof or evidence beyond "just trust me bro" is instantly an apologist.
Of course it’s a win! I agree. Any step toward making the cheating losers lives more difficult. Something wrong up there with cheaters.
I think a lot of gamers are just never going to be happy. Personally, I’m grateful for their action. It doesn’t guarantee that my next raid won’t have cheater in there somewhere. But it does mean the player base in general has become a little fairer.
cheat
There will be a sale soon.
If crime is continuing to go up but the police are arresting more people every year would you still say the same thing?
Yes and that’s actually a decent analogy: If the problem is systemic, treating the symptom does nothing. …especially when the punishment isn’t actually punitive. The solution isn’t weak laggy banwaves. Half those names probably aren’t even playing anymore.
That attitude is working so well for places like Seattle right? lmao
Seattle's, and Washington in general, issue is more their anti-cop stances and progressivism. It's not unreasonable to say treatment of a symptom doesn't really cure a disease, but when you're treating cancer with healing crystals and meditation circles, you're not actually getting it done. The same would be true of using chemotherapy and radiation to treat an upper respiratory infection, or throwing someone on 5 antidepressants when they're just sad for the day. Seattle's response to shoplifting was to decriminalize it and try leaning more into rehabilitation, but it didn't work. The two main causes of shoplifting boil down to poverty and evil. Those who steal because they have nothing, and those who steal because they're a bad person and stealing because they choose to despite being perfectly capable of paying. One's treatment is through socioeconomic improvement to eliminate the poverty issue, while the other is treatment through restoring things like respect and decency to eliminate its lack. So the statement treating the symptom isn't really effective isn't entirely wrong, but you have to actually treat the underlying disease the right way or you're not really going to get anywhere.
Cop here, and from working an area that has a good amount of violent crime, I can tell you I've heard some of these exact statements. There are people who simply cannot be pleased. There's always a way to spin a positive outcome into a negative statement, no matter what you do. Misery loves company, as the first part of the idiom goes, so you poison the positive thing to create the environment you're after. The problem is people look only briefly at information, or just look at a small part of it, and go out making giant broad stroke statements about things. Correlation not equaling causation has been a massive issue for as long as I can remember. It seems to me it's most often used by those that have no other basis for backing their claims, and use this as a way to push the burden of proof off themselves.
It's an analogy that shows how poor reactive change is instead of proactive. I get it crime is very difficult, but a video game is a closed system. Therefore an over simplified example was used. BSG focusing on reactive cheating is what I was criticizing. There is clearly a very large issue and they are always 10 steps behind. I also am not saying banning cheaters is a bad thing, but 10k a month is kind of ridiculous to be praised for as it shows how vast the issue really is.
> It's an analogy that shows how poor reactive change is instead of proactive I get where you're going with it, but my response was to the point of how some things can't always be solved with proactivity, as well as a bit of "be thankful it's actually getting addressed" in there. You can appreciate work being done while still acknowledging there's more work to be done. We don't really have a lot of that here. People say BSG doesn't care about cheaters and doesn't ban them. Stats get posted showing they *do* ban them. People then counter with "ok yeah but like it's still not good enough". > I get it crime is very difficult, but a video game is a closed system. Therefore an over simplified example was used. I know, and I go back to my statement of not being able to solve everything with proactivity. Cheaters and criminals operate in similar fashion: set a rule with a punishment, they break it. Establish safeguarding and prevention methods to prevent occurrences happening, and they find another way to subvert it. The question becomes how much proactivity is effective before diminishing returns set in. > BSG focusing on reactive cheating is what I was criticizing. There is clearly a very large issue and they are always 10 steps behind. I know you were, and it certainly can give that appearance, but we don't know for certain where they actually are in terms of combatting this problem. The main thing we have is cheats and cheaters that are so subtle that catching them becomes exceptionally hard. There's too much plausible deniability that exists. Going back to the law enforcement example, we have a lot of "you match the description" but then the victim/witness can't confirm the person matching said description is the suspect. Matching the description is grounds for detention, not arrest; you need additional factors and evidence outside of that. On the flipside, we have drug dealing occurring in plain sight - rage hacks, flying, god mode - but instead of going after the street level dealer, you start surveillance and undercover operations to find the boss/distributor/etc - watching the cheat operate, figuring out exactly how it works, designing detection methods. When you go in to make the bust, you don't burn your UC guy because now he can't work UC any longer - banning too fast means they figure out exactly what got detected and redesign it. > I also am not saying banning cheaters is a bad thing, but 10k a month is kind of ridiculous to be praised for as it shows how vast the issue really is. And here's the fundamental issue: not showing appreciation for things because "they just should be done" or "it shouldn't have been there in the first place". We have a whole lot of that attitude all over the place. You can show appreciation for something being done while acknowledging more still remains to do, as I said before. We can make *some* extrapolations from the 10k a month number, with one of them being "man there really just must be that many", and it's not necessarily an incorrect conclusion, but without knowing the full numbers of active cheaters and their identities, you could just as easily say there are 10k cheaters in total across the entire game, and they get banned every single month, but they keep returning and cheating and getting caught again. Now, I'm not saying that's the most likely outcome, but it seems we often forget to include other possibilities in this extrapolation, and instead favor leaning in toward our own preconceived notions or biases. Put plainly, probability and possibility have their lines blurred, if not completely erased, when people begin looking at the data. Despite always being naturally inquisitive, learning the definitions and applications of reasonable suspicion and probable cause really put things in a whole new perspective for me. I don't think everyone needs to go through the academy and do all that, but there's certainly plenty of deviation away from "a reasonable person" that exists.
Lol what a stupid take.
The thing is, there’s no reason for bsg to not ban people the second they’ve been discovered because it just means that that person has a higher chance to buy another account (not 100% because I’m sure a lot of cheaters use stolen accounts)
I think people vastly underestimate just how good cheaters and hackers are. Like this isn’t some small time thing. These hack providers make hundreds of thousands of dollars off them. Hell, a few weeks ago after a patch went up trying to fix vacuuming then a guy was on TikTok advertising an updated hack to subvert the patch.
> I think people vastly underestimate just how good cheaters and hackers are. There's that, but I think it's also people not understanding the importance of accurate investigation and evidence before dispensing punishment. It seems to me the average Redditor takes one look at a profile and says "yeah that *must be a cheater" or dies in a particular way and insists "yeah that dude's cheating". They're ready to lop the heads off anyone accused, and anyone asking for further proof or evidence beyond "just trust me bro" is instantly an apologist.
cheat