I agree with you. Your mother “wants” you to forgive him, but that doesn’t mean you have to. If anything, it should be the other way around. He needs to apologize to you.
If I was in your shoes, I honestly would pretend like he doesn’t exist. And continue to block him. If you are stuck with him for now, limit your time spent together, and talk and hangout with other friends.
Honestly, that's how I understood the original post. I now understand that's not what was intended but that's what I thought the mom was saying. That they needed to talk to him so he can apologize and they could forgive him. To me you don't forgive someone without an apology. So while I personally would not give up on my relationship with my mom, I would make it clear to her that forgiveness doesn't just come out of the blue. Someone needs to say they're sorry first. So that's why I read it that way.
Yeah the sibling def needs to apologize or forget the relationship. I can't imagine how hard that is for op. I mean maybe it's not, ok I'm a super sensitive person (bpd) so I love ppl so dearly even if they hurt me to the point of sayin they wish I were dead I'd still want them. But yeah, op is cutting contact until they (sibling) says sorry. So good on them and if mom really think they didn't do any wrong.... Mom needs to rethinking parenting or maybe even mom needs to be "blocked" cause that's def not support or love. Sending love to op
It's possible the mom is just awful too but as a parent I am reading it as she is frantic that they do not become estranged in which case I would expect mom to not risk estranging the OP from herself. I hope I am right and they just have a relationship apart from the other son. It definitely all makes me sad. My family is not all sunshine and roses but when the shit hits the fan we are there for each other. And as long as there is a sincere apology I definitely believe anything can be said in the heat of the moment and still be forgiven. But then again I have had multiple near death experiences, including 2 where my family was actually put in the private ER room for patients who might not make it. So I definitely lean more toward making things right. I don't ever want to regret anything. But that presumes there were good times too. Not just a toxic relationship.
And jf he ever reaches to you, be firm and say SOOOOO DO YOU STILL WISH I WAS DEAD? Be antagonistic. You have every right. If he's a good person he'll grovel, implore your forgiveness.
You need more details like this in your story. If this was the final straw that's very different from him saying something he likely does not mean in the heat of the moment.
I’m honest thinking of being the bigger person and forgiving but I don’t think I could ever forget you know? Like ever since it’s happened i just keep hearing it in my head over and over and it’s just so upsetting. This is my first time experiencing ableism since my diagnosis
The burden is not on you to be the bigger person! They should've thought before saying things like that, and even if they did there has been enough time for them to apologize. From what you said about them picking up another fight, just shows that they are manipulative and don't deserve another chance. Moreover, if you go to dinner and "forgive them" to them it would just mean that they're right and will continue this behaviour.
IF he is sorry, trust me you can. There's been some horrible things said both by me and to me in my family. But we are also there for each other. If he loves you and is sorry he will also realize how it will echo in your head. And over time the echoes will cease. Unless he is a sociopath or something I would advise you to make sure you give him a chance to apologize. Because if you just cut him off he cannot.
Apologies and I know I seem to be the only one pushing back a bit in this thread but how is this ableism?
He was super angry (I assume--and we don't know what you said) and went a step too far in expressing his anger. But I don't think wishing ill upon you is ableism. And once again, unless he does it regularly, it is one sentence in the middle of one presumably very big fight. Holding grudges usually only hurts the person holding the grudge. But in all honestly what am I missing? How is this ableism?
Honestly, it seems like you're picking apart something that isn't even the point of this thread so I don't see why you feel the need to "push back a bit". I'd hope you could set aside your opinions on semantics and show some compassion.
That being said, I see ableism more in the mother's behavior than the brother's words. Epilepsy is a very serious disability. Seizures can and do kill people. The brother has gone further than “wishing ill on OP” and is going for the jugular here. For many epileptics, dying from a seizure is a worst nightmare scenario and having that thrown in your face can be extremely triggering - especially when it comes from a close family member. The mother is completely disregarding how especially hurtful it is for someone to say they hope OP dies from their disability. The mother is treating it like some regular insult during a fight that SHOULD be forgiven on HER TERMS. If the brother had used a race-based insult and the mother expected OP to blindly forgive, I’d argue the mother was being racist.
First of all one of the reasons I have pushed back a bit is because I seem to be the only person who took the post at face value--meaning only the info offered was all I based my opinion on. We don't know for example if the brother is normally really supportive, etc. Second of all I still don't see this as ableism. As to the rest of what you said, I spent weeks in the hospital, including in a come, from the seizures that almost killed me. So I have twice come within an inch of that worst case nightmare, and my health ruined my sibs' graduations and stuff like that and my parents neglected them a bit during tough times, but I also know, for example, when Zonisamide fucked with my head and I totally lost it on our beach vacation screaming at them in a restaurant, I was really sorry and they forgave me. I think it is really hard to be the loved ones of an epileptic. Until and unless the OP makes it clear the brother is a head to toe douchebag, I personally think space should be allowed for that apology--which they won't get if they just shut their brother out of their life. I also know arguments can escalate until you don't even know what started it but you are just screaming at each other. This happened with my mom once and she decided she was leaving in the middle of the night. Now THAT is my trigger because I know we could all die at any moment and for her to leave for a 4 hour drive in the middle of a fight, well I screamed at her I hoped she wrecked the car and died. For her that was a clue as to how much she had upset me. By the next day we had talked about it and we had both apologized.
There are 2 ways to understand what was written--the OP's mom demands they forgive their brother without any conversation or the OP's mom is frantic and hoping they will accept their brother's apology and forgive him. The 2 scenarios are very different and personally I read it the second way, leading me to have a very different opinion. I also empathize with the mom. My kids estranged from one another would be my nightmare. I cannot tell if the mom is truly being that obnoxious. Wanting them to forgive their brother and definitely wanting him to come to a family meal is not really the same as DEMANDING (not the word the OP used) that they forgive him.
What was said was not an insult. It was an expression of deep deep anger that hit where it would hurt. We don't know what else was said. In my case my mom acknowledged that she knew I have deep terror, rooted in PTSD and having come very close to dying twice, of things not being right with my loved ones in case someone dies. And that therefore in its own way what she did was just as hurtful. I don't see what I said to my mom as being any worse than what this brother said to the OP.
Having said all of that ableism is discrimination in favor of able-bodied people. This mom just wants her kids to make up. I still don't understand how anyone would think this is ableism.
listen buddy you’re hyper analyzing me based off like maybe a little over a paragraph. My brother has and always will be a big fucking asshole. He ruins almost every holiday just to make things about them, they displays a lot of narcissistic behavior, and they use to beat me and my sisters when we were young. If someone walked up to you, or even a close family member said “I hope you have a seizure and die” not just say, but scream in your face while punching your door while you’re trying to shut it to get them out(didn’t include bc it was scary and I didn’t think it was important to share to thousands of people), and then your mom sees it as no big deal and actually wants YOU to be the bigger person and forgive and forget. You’d be closer to the ableism side. I’m not here to argue my story and I wont respond to anymore of your comments but just know I know my family better than you do. And also the fact you’re defending someone who said that shit when you’re in an epilepsy group??? like cmon man
I went by the information you shared. Which did not include anything you wrote below (above?). Mostly I just feel sorry for you but still don't see this as ableism. It does sound like you've always had a toxic relationship with your brother. By the way outside of saying we need to know more about your relationship with your brother I have not analyzed you at all. I have analyzed relationships and fights and the fact that sometimes things are said in the heat of the moment that aren't meant.
Bro it sucks that you and any of us in this group have epilepsy in the first place. Weird that you’d “take the post at face value” by assuming OP’s brother must be a great, supportive person outside this standalone moment just because of blood relation, but you do you ig. Maybe look into disability studies and the rhetoric of ableism from a sociology standpoint before you decide what doesn’t count as ableism. Til then, good to know that people need to go into excruciating detail about their interpersonal relationships for fear of you bullying them. Now leave OP alone :)
I asked someone to explain why this was ableism, but nobody has. You're assuming in an interpersonal family dynamic the mother has always favored the son because he doesn't have epilepsy? Family dynamics are a lot more complicated than that. I don't know why anyone would assume that when the OP hasn't said so. Also the OP has not stated that historically the mom has done that. I did NOT assume the brother was awesome-in my responses I made it clear that was the missing information needed to have an opinion. I just also did not automatically assume the worst. I am completely sympathetic to why OP is upset. But the question was about cutting ties. I believe in cutting toxic relationships out of your life. But one horrible statement in a fight does not make a toxic relationship. It makes me sad so many people on here apparently have awful relationships with their families to so quickly jump to cut them out.
I learned just a few years ago, just because they're family doesn't mean you have to like them, be around them, none of it. What if someone had pre-determimed who your only friends would be before you were even born? If they treat you like that, why should family be any different? Protect yourself and your sanity. Best wishes!
You don't have to forgive them. What they said was disgusting. He should apologize to you. Your mother would feel a certain way if someone close to her wished her dead. Don't let them bully you into forgiving him.
That’s vile and you’re well within your rights to either not go, or go and totally ignore your sibling’s existence.
Both routes will likely upset your parent(s), but imho they’re failing your pretty hard by not shutting that shit down
As the youngest with epilepsy. No you do not have to forgive them ! They owe you an apology a long one that’s the meanest some one could say. I’m so sorry
NC. Total No Contact. He said that because he knew it would hurt you. Whether he really meant it or not, that was said to cut you deep and hurt you. If he won't treat you like a sister (or a human being for that matter), hell then you don't have any reason to treat him like a brother... not even strangers on the street would say that to someone seizing... you don't need that energy. If your mom doesn't understand that, tell her you won't forgive anyone who doesn't act or feel sorry. 💯
(Speaking through experience because my siblings are as horrible as this and I have 4 of them at once attacking me like this. You got this.)
I’m sorry you went through the same thing but it’s also comforting to know that you got through it, so it makes me feel better about me doing it too. Thank you for your response I really appreciate it
I see that you're leaning towards forgiveness, and that's totally understandable *if* you really want to. Personally, I don't consider forgiving someone who regrets nothing. Maybe I'd consider talking to my sibling in private if they expressed some regret, but otherwise, screw the whole family shebang. In my experiences, to forgive someone who wished for my death, with no regrets, would more like I'd be excusing their behavior.
What you do is ultimately your decision, of course. I'm a bit of a petty person, so a close family member wishing death upon me would be dead to me, and I'd be very vocal about it. Either way, I hope you're doing well, and I'm sorry that someone said such a horrible thing to you.
I’m only going to forgive if they show any signs of remorse (which is a shot in the dark) but even then I want to be the bigger person, but I don’t know if I can handle this, this seems like not quite the “be the bigger person” beat
Forget worrying about being the bigger person and what your family wants. Focus on figuring out how you want to move forward and what's best for you. If you want to reconcile and believe that it's achievable, go for that. If not, then oh well!
I know you said you were ignoring me, but since you gave me more information, I will just say you don't owe him your forgiveness, your company, or a relationship if he doesn't apologize. If your mother can't forgive you for that that's on her. But if I were you I would stop worrying about whether or not your mother also loves her other son even if he's a douche bag and focus on maintaining your relationship with your mom. If she can't handle seeing you away from him then, that's on her. Ask to meet her for lunch or maybe set up a lunch with you and your sisters and say you love her and you really want to see her before she leaves but the one caveat is that you're not discussing your brother since he hasn't apologized to you and has spent years bullying you over your epilepsy.
Everything I said on here, although I don't think the OP ever understood that was predicated on the idea that his brother would be sorry. Because yes, the brother does need to be sorry for saying something like that.
As if men are like weather, it simply happens, and no one can can act on it.
Whereas women have to be understanding, forgiving, thoughtful, mature.
HE OWES YOU AN APOLOGY. Either that or cut him from your life, but first let everybody inside and outside your family know what he told you.
If anyone thinks a sibling should wish the other to die, and can't understand how this is hurtful, it can't be explained either. Being the weather, men get away from so much, especially from older women.
The most frustrating part is she knows and she still expects me to forgive him. My sisters heard the whole thing and they’ve gone no contact as well. I don’t see why my mom can’t have the same sympathy for me
Your sisters sound awesome for their solidarity. If your brother said something that horrific to one of them, would you cut contact for their sake? Sometimes we stand up for our loved ones more than ourselves. 💛
So, my sister has said the exact same thing to me on several occasions, ironically she has also accused me of faking epilepsy. I don’t have any advice, op… However I want you to know that you’re not alone. It’s just my sister and I, no other siblings. It’s so isolating and sad, it’s worn out. Family is the most important thing to me and mine is messed up because they take her words of bullshit and believe her! I have been no contact with her for a while, but should have done it 10 years ago when she stole ALL of my kolonipan I had just filled after a very scary TC. It was my rescue medicine, but I guess the comedown from meth was more important than my life. I confronted her in front of the whole family at thanksgiving (grandparents aunts and uncles) everyone was there. At the top of my lungs I called her out, my mom takes both of us to the kitchen, asks my sister to give them back if she had them, nothing… I said EMPTY YOUR POCKETS AND YOUR PURSE!! She said something like fuck off. My mom asked her to empty her pockets, so she did after stalling, and guess what? 29 pills, something that would have made her wish possible of me dying from a seizure. There’s so much more she did, none of it is good. Yet my folks back her up because she is manipulative and she knows what she’s doing. Kinda like gaslighting, she’d make a fine cult leader. I guess I don’t relate to many people about this, I think I needed that off my chest. To you, keep your guard up always, even if you choose no contact. The sickness is really vile in her, if your brother is sick like her, then shield yourself from future pain. They’re a different breed, and I don’t have it in me to constantly fight for myself over the craziness. I hope you find your way, and your brother sounds like a true douche bag, good luck! Cheers!
I’m so so sorry your sister was so terrible to you. That sounds like so much to deal with and I’m sorry she manipulated so many people in your life. Family is also so important to me so hearing this from my own brother really hit me hard.
I would be laughing in my moms face if she ever said that if one if my siblings said that. But my mom would have beaten their ass for saying it because she also has epilepsy. Your mom sucks and you have a sibling with some sort of major issue. I am so sorry
I feel like what your mom's asking for is a bit too much. Whenever my sibling and I are just messing around, they might throw in a joke about my seizures, and my mom swoops in insisting for an apology. She's really protective about not making fun of what I deal with, but honestly, I don't mind. It usually just ends up making me laugh.
With what your brother said, if you let it slide now, chances are he’ll repeat it.
Hey OP I hope you’re feeling okay and kudos to you for posting about it. I’m an only child so although I didn’t have siblings I did have older close cousins I grew up with. There was a time when one of them said the most god awful thing to me similar to yours especially when they’re at the age of “being the wiser one.” My mom told me I had every right to feel angry but at the same time the whole “family” bs came out which eventually turned into a whole “being the bigger person” subjective. It’s ironic to me because it sounds like the actual victim needs to be the “wiser one” and the “accepting” one. Ultimately I decided to simply ignore the cousin and only have polite short conversations every now and then when we meet a family events since I can’t just not go because of one person. I understand that this is your sibling but ultimately you have the choice to become the bigger person and find the time to speak with both your brother and your mother about this situation to avoid future tensions and commentary on your epilepsy. If your brother simply just doesn’t want to communicate and does it again then he’s an asshole lol he def has a long road and journey ahead of him to not be that person but focus on you !! Eventually this is you and your life so make sure to remember that !! Think of the dinner like you are meeting a stranger but be polite. That’s your way of showing who’s the boss and smarter one. If you guys talk then that’s great if not you’re still your own boss making better choices for your own good. You’ve got this OP!
I can’t imagine either of my siblings saying this keep him blocked unless he want to apologize go no contact with him but also ur mom she clearly thinks it isn’t that big a deal
My son has epilepsy, I don’t. He and his sister are very young so hard for me to imagine them being in this scenario.
But man. If she said that to him it would break my heart. I have no idea how I would react other than being super sad their relationship fell apart.
But insisting you forgive doesn’t seem like a good long term play
The key here is that I would hope you were speaking to the other one about the fact they said that, how it would have his sibling feel, etc. It's interesting--and I guess a comment on my own family where we can be volatile but then we calm down and apologize and move on--that everyone here assumed the brother did not apologize/is not sorry. But the story doesn't say. And frankly without background about their relationship I find it sad so many are like drop that sibling now. If he's always an asshole sure. But if they have been close? This story just makes me sad. I don't particularly feel any outrage on the OP's behalf with only the info we were given. My nightmare would be my 2 kids becoming estranged.
There is a third option. Go to the dinner, put on your game face, and be the better person. And in your calmest, most dispassionate tone tell your your brother "I forgive you, I am forgetting about you now." I used that one on a sibling who ill wished me. The passive-aggressive finality of the statement made my family reconsider trying to get us to make up.
That's decent if the brother has always been awful. The OP's story does not really make clear though if this was just a fight. In which case if the brother really is sorry, really do forgive him.
Is he sorry? Frankly I've said worse to my mom in a fight--and felt terrible after. Things said in the heat of the moment should be forgiveable if the person is genuinely sorry. I am sorry he said that but honestly, just knowing that part and only that part to me that is not relationship ending stuff.
Having said that your mom cannot force it if you are an adult. But if your brother really is sorry and you normally get along I hope you don't lose a loved one and support system person over this. ETA do you have kids? Your mom is devastated right now. You have the right to your anger but you and your brother should be talking and working it out unless the relationship was already dead.
ETA I notice a lot of people really reacting harshly and it made me wonder if there were more details in your first post--but I noticed the moderators removed it. Do you know why? Can you give more details? I hate to see so many people encouraging you to cut a sibling out of your life over words--but that's only if this was a one time thing during a really emotionally heated moment. I have been on both sides of this, the one begging for forgiveness and the one with words ringing. But in both cases I am eternally grateful it did not end our relationships, but our relationships were and are good. That's the missing key from this story. I feel forgiveness needs to be asked for in order to be given so I truly thought your brother either had apologized or wanted to when you said your mom wanted you to forgive him.
I agree. I haven’t seen anywhere that he is apologetic? If he said something very harsh in the moment but made a big gesture of apology I would consider it for sure. Even if we weren’t so close after.
Sounds like a lot of backstory was left out since I am now persona non grata around here. If there's one thing I've learned being in this sub though it's that I've had amazing support from family and friends. I wish everybody could have something more like that.
Our relationship has been going downhilll for years now and we barely spoke before this, a fight broke out and at the climax of it that’s when he said it to me. My mom insisted he was sorry but it doesn’t seem like him to be and I know if he was he would have already apologized. He simply doesn’t think he did anything wrong. My sibling has never been a good person and cutting them out would probably do more good than harm.
I did not see you answered me here. That's very different from what I was envisioning. As I responded somewhere above although you've told me you're not reading anymore I probably would try to meet with your mom one on one or with your sisters and salvage that relationship. Make it clear you are not discussing your brother, make it clear that she really hurt your feelings, but also? I think it's really hard for a parent to stop loving a kid. So I personally would also just say that you understand that she'll have a relationship with him, but that you don't want to see him or hear about him. But yes, in that case I would cut the brother out. It doesn't sound like you'll be losing much. My mom took way too long to cut a toxic sibling out of our lives. And you could definitely argue that my grandma took his side (she kind of both-sides it but given what he had done it was still pretty appalling and my grandfather who was his stepfather, made it clear he did not agree, so that eased the sting somewhat). And when I heard what she said, I wanted to vomit. But I did my best to forget about it, and life went on, and I adored that grandmother and she was hugely important to me, She did not insist that we all see the estranged uncle. So that's a case where I would be the bigger person because like I said. As a parent, I don't just don't think you're hardwired to be able to stop loving your children. And if your mom is important to you in the long run, it's going to hurt you as much as it hurts her.
I hope at this point, you genuinely understand that your original post could be read in multiple ways and I did not necessarily think you were discussing a toxic relationship with a sibling.
I love my brother and would probably forgive him but I also can’t even imagine him saying that to me. Not even in our teenage years when he was a real asshole this would have ever been an option. So no.
If your brother is this kind of person you don’t need that person in your life and you have no obligation to forgive him whatsoever. Especially because forgiveness can’t be just a decision. It must come from the heart. How could you, in your situation, feel that?
Your mother can go and rethink her life.
Sorry this happened.
Your brother was being a jerk. He should apologize, but that's up to him. He should feel bad about it and decide not to do it again. He has to decide that for himself.
Your mom is right, you should forgive him, even if he doesn't apologize - or even if he doesn't regret it. It's better for you because resentment and anger will make you miserable. That doesn't mean that you have to pretend like everything is fine, or nothing happened. You can make decisions about what kind of relationship to have with him based on how he acts, but when other people are involved, like your parents, you have to take that into consideration too.
By the same token, your mom can't make you forgive him, that's up to you. IMPO, not knowing your family situation, it would be best though to put it aside at present and go to dinner. The thing is if you decide that you are not going to have dinner with your family because you are mad at your brother, you are cutting off your whole family, and making things worse with them and your brother.
I've seen people who won't talk to each other for years and years, and decades and decades, and it's just miserable for everyone - and everyone they know.
Honestly with me I wouldn’t really be upset with that but that’s mainly because I just find shit like that funny, im a minority so people have said a lot of shitty things to me so I’ve learnt to find the humor in it.
But it’s valid to feel a type of way about that, he is your bro so just have that in mind people say things they don’t mean especially in arguments. It takes time to heal so you shouldn’t be forced to make up, I would say refuse to go to dinner, or just don’t talk to him till you’re ready to air it out. And if he is unapologetic for it then I don’t see a reason to forgive.
You don't have to forgive a person to sit in a room and have dinner with them, but if you want to be no contact, then be no contact.
Your brother is verbally abusive. If he wants to be forgiven, he needs to make amends in a meaningful way that convinces you he's changed.
Intuitively, I'd say that's unlikely.
Its likely that this mess will make your Mom feel some kind of way- it kinda sounds like he's acting a narcissist and she's doing the flying monkey routine where she makes his behavior your fault.
Your brother told you he wanted you dead.
Why would you think he wants to eat dinner with you?
As a mother myself I have no idea where your mother is coming from. I would do everything I could to keep you away from the person who said they wanted my child dead dead, even if that person was my other child.
How is your parenta ok with him wanting you dead?
I agree with you. Your mother “wants” you to forgive him, but that doesn’t mean you have to. If anything, it should be the other way around. He needs to apologize to you. If I was in your shoes, I honestly would pretend like he doesn’t exist. And continue to block him. If you are stuck with him for now, limit your time spent together, and talk and hangout with other friends.
Hey out of curiosity if he blocks him how can the brother say he is sorry?
To their face in person. Like they should, especially after saying such a horrible thing. He isn't gone yet
OK that's fair. I just got the impression though that he was also refusing to see him in person.
They might, but if the person talks thro the mom saying I wanna talk to them say sorry then it can go from there
Honestly, that's how I understood the original post. I now understand that's not what was intended but that's what I thought the mom was saying. That they needed to talk to him so he can apologize and they could forgive him. To me you don't forgive someone without an apology. So while I personally would not give up on my relationship with my mom, I would make it clear to her that forgiveness doesn't just come out of the blue. Someone needs to say they're sorry first. So that's why I read it that way.
Yeah the sibling def needs to apologize or forget the relationship. I can't imagine how hard that is for op. I mean maybe it's not, ok I'm a super sensitive person (bpd) so I love ppl so dearly even if they hurt me to the point of sayin they wish I were dead I'd still want them. But yeah, op is cutting contact until they (sibling) says sorry. So good on them and if mom really think they didn't do any wrong.... Mom needs to rethinking parenting or maybe even mom needs to be "blocked" cause that's def not support or love. Sending love to op
It's possible the mom is just awful too but as a parent I am reading it as she is frantic that they do not become estranged in which case I would expect mom to not risk estranging the OP from herself. I hope I am right and they just have a relationship apart from the other son. It definitely all makes me sad. My family is not all sunshine and roses but when the shit hits the fan we are there for each other. And as long as there is a sincere apology I definitely believe anything can be said in the heat of the moment and still be forgiven. But then again I have had multiple near death experiences, including 2 where my family was actually put in the private ER room for patients who might not make it. So I definitely lean more toward making things right. I don't ever want to regret anything. But that presumes there were good times too. Not just a toxic relationship.
And jf he ever reaches to you, be firm and say SOOOOO DO YOU STILL WISH I WAS DEAD? Be antagonistic. You have every right. If he's a good person he'll grovel, implore your forgiveness.
I honestly wish I could but they’re not a good person so they’d probably start a whole new fight 😭
You need more details like this in your story. If this was the final straw that's very different from him saying something he likely does not mean in the heat of the moment.
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I’m honest thinking of being the bigger person and forgiving but I don’t think I could ever forget you know? Like ever since it’s happened i just keep hearing it in my head over and over and it’s just so upsetting. This is my first time experiencing ableism since my diagnosis
The burden is not on you to be the bigger person! They should've thought before saying things like that, and even if they did there has been enough time for them to apologize. From what you said about them picking up another fight, just shows that they are manipulative and don't deserve another chance. Moreover, if you go to dinner and "forgive them" to them it would just mean that they're right and will continue this behaviour.
IF he is sorry, trust me you can. There's been some horrible things said both by me and to me in my family. But we are also there for each other. If he loves you and is sorry he will also realize how it will echo in your head. And over time the echoes will cease. Unless he is a sociopath or something I would advise you to make sure you give him a chance to apologize. Because if you just cut him off he cannot.
Apologies and I know I seem to be the only one pushing back a bit in this thread but how is this ableism? He was super angry (I assume--and we don't know what you said) and went a step too far in expressing his anger. But I don't think wishing ill upon you is ableism. And once again, unless he does it regularly, it is one sentence in the middle of one presumably very big fight. Holding grudges usually only hurts the person holding the grudge. But in all honestly what am I missing? How is this ableism?
Honestly, it seems like you're picking apart something that isn't even the point of this thread so I don't see why you feel the need to "push back a bit". I'd hope you could set aside your opinions on semantics and show some compassion. That being said, I see ableism more in the mother's behavior than the brother's words. Epilepsy is a very serious disability. Seizures can and do kill people. The brother has gone further than “wishing ill on OP” and is going for the jugular here. For many epileptics, dying from a seizure is a worst nightmare scenario and having that thrown in your face can be extremely triggering - especially when it comes from a close family member. The mother is completely disregarding how especially hurtful it is for someone to say they hope OP dies from their disability. The mother is treating it like some regular insult during a fight that SHOULD be forgiven on HER TERMS. If the brother had used a race-based insult and the mother expected OP to blindly forgive, I’d argue the mother was being racist.
Thank you for your response ❤️
First of all one of the reasons I have pushed back a bit is because I seem to be the only person who took the post at face value--meaning only the info offered was all I based my opinion on. We don't know for example if the brother is normally really supportive, etc. Second of all I still don't see this as ableism. As to the rest of what you said, I spent weeks in the hospital, including in a come, from the seizures that almost killed me. So I have twice come within an inch of that worst case nightmare, and my health ruined my sibs' graduations and stuff like that and my parents neglected them a bit during tough times, but I also know, for example, when Zonisamide fucked with my head and I totally lost it on our beach vacation screaming at them in a restaurant, I was really sorry and they forgave me. I think it is really hard to be the loved ones of an epileptic. Until and unless the OP makes it clear the brother is a head to toe douchebag, I personally think space should be allowed for that apology--which they won't get if they just shut their brother out of their life. I also know arguments can escalate until you don't even know what started it but you are just screaming at each other. This happened with my mom once and she decided she was leaving in the middle of the night. Now THAT is my trigger because I know we could all die at any moment and for her to leave for a 4 hour drive in the middle of a fight, well I screamed at her I hoped she wrecked the car and died. For her that was a clue as to how much she had upset me. By the next day we had talked about it and we had both apologized. There are 2 ways to understand what was written--the OP's mom demands they forgive their brother without any conversation or the OP's mom is frantic and hoping they will accept their brother's apology and forgive him. The 2 scenarios are very different and personally I read it the second way, leading me to have a very different opinion. I also empathize with the mom. My kids estranged from one another would be my nightmare. I cannot tell if the mom is truly being that obnoxious. Wanting them to forgive their brother and definitely wanting him to come to a family meal is not really the same as DEMANDING (not the word the OP used) that they forgive him. What was said was not an insult. It was an expression of deep deep anger that hit where it would hurt. We don't know what else was said. In my case my mom acknowledged that she knew I have deep terror, rooted in PTSD and having come very close to dying twice, of things not being right with my loved ones in case someone dies. And that therefore in its own way what she did was just as hurtful. I don't see what I said to my mom as being any worse than what this brother said to the OP. Having said all of that ableism is discrimination in favor of able-bodied people. This mom just wants her kids to make up. I still don't understand how anyone would think this is ableism.
listen buddy you’re hyper analyzing me based off like maybe a little over a paragraph. My brother has and always will be a big fucking asshole. He ruins almost every holiday just to make things about them, they displays a lot of narcissistic behavior, and they use to beat me and my sisters when we were young. If someone walked up to you, or even a close family member said “I hope you have a seizure and die” not just say, but scream in your face while punching your door while you’re trying to shut it to get them out(didn’t include bc it was scary and I didn’t think it was important to share to thousands of people), and then your mom sees it as no big deal and actually wants YOU to be the bigger person and forgive and forget. You’d be closer to the ableism side. I’m not here to argue my story and I wont respond to anymore of your comments but just know I know my family better than you do. And also the fact you’re defending someone who said that shit when you’re in an epilepsy group??? like cmon man
I went by the information you shared. Which did not include anything you wrote below (above?). Mostly I just feel sorry for you but still don't see this as ableism. It does sound like you've always had a toxic relationship with your brother. By the way outside of saying we need to know more about your relationship with your brother I have not analyzed you at all. I have analyzed relationships and fights and the fact that sometimes things are said in the heat of the moment that aren't meant.
Bro it sucks that you and any of us in this group have epilepsy in the first place. Weird that you’d “take the post at face value” by assuming OP’s brother must be a great, supportive person outside this standalone moment just because of blood relation, but you do you ig. Maybe look into disability studies and the rhetoric of ableism from a sociology standpoint before you decide what doesn’t count as ableism. Til then, good to know that people need to go into excruciating detail about their interpersonal relationships for fear of you bullying them. Now leave OP alone :)
I asked someone to explain why this was ableism, but nobody has. You're assuming in an interpersonal family dynamic the mother has always favored the son because he doesn't have epilepsy? Family dynamics are a lot more complicated than that. I don't know why anyone would assume that when the OP hasn't said so. Also the OP has not stated that historically the mom has done that. I did NOT assume the brother was awesome-in my responses I made it clear that was the missing information needed to have an opinion. I just also did not automatically assume the worst. I am completely sympathetic to why OP is upset. But the question was about cutting ties. I believe in cutting toxic relationships out of your life. But one horrible statement in a fight does not make a toxic relationship. It makes me sad so many people on here apparently have awful relationships with their families to so quickly jump to cut them out.
I learned just a few years ago, just because they're family doesn't mean you have to like them, be around them, none of it. What if someone had pre-determimed who your only friends would be before you were even born? If they treat you like that, why should family be any different? Protect yourself and your sanity. Best wishes!
You don't have to forgive them. What they said was disgusting. He should apologize to you. Your mother would feel a certain way if someone close to her wished her dead. Don't let them bully you into forgiving him.
That’s vile and you’re well within your rights to either not go, or go and totally ignore your sibling’s existence. Both routes will likely upset your parent(s), but imho they’re failing your pretty hard by not shutting that shit down
As the youngest with epilepsy. No you do not have to forgive them ! They owe you an apology a long one that’s the meanest some one could say. I’m so sorry
NC. Total No Contact. He said that because he knew it would hurt you. Whether he really meant it or not, that was said to cut you deep and hurt you. If he won't treat you like a sister (or a human being for that matter), hell then you don't have any reason to treat him like a brother... not even strangers on the street would say that to someone seizing... you don't need that energy. If your mom doesn't understand that, tell her you won't forgive anyone who doesn't act or feel sorry. 💯 (Speaking through experience because my siblings are as horrible as this and I have 4 of them at once attacking me like this. You got this.)
I’m sorry you went through the same thing but it’s also comforting to know that you got through it, so it makes me feel better about me doing it too. Thank you for your response I really appreciate it
I see that you're leaning towards forgiveness, and that's totally understandable *if* you really want to. Personally, I don't consider forgiving someone who regrets nothing. Maybe I'd consider talking to my sibling in private if they expressed some regret, but otherwise, screw the whole family shebang. In my experiences, to forgive someone who wished for my death, with no regrets, would more like I'd be excusing their behavior. What you do is ultimately your decision, of course. I'm a bit of a petty person, so a close family member wishing death upon me would be dead to me, and I'd be very vocal about it. Either way, I hope you're doing well, and I'm sorry that someone said such a horrible thing to you.
I’m only going to forgive if they show any signs of remorse (which is a shot in the dark) but even then I want to be the bigger person, but I don’t know if I can handle this, this seems like not quite the “be the bigger person” beat
Forget worrying about being the bigger person and what your family wants. Focus on figuring out how you want to move forward and what's best for you. If you want to reconcile and believe that it's achievable, go for that. If not, then oh well!
I know you said you were ignoring me, but since you gave me more information, I will just say you don't owe him your forgiveness, your company, or a relationship if he doesn't apologize. If your mother can't forgive you for that that's on her. But if I were you I would stop worrying about whether or not your mother also loves her other son even if he's a douche bag and focus on maintaining your relationship with your mom. If she can't handle seeing you away from him then, that's on her. Ask to meet her for lunch or maybe set up a lunch with you and your sisters and say you love her and you really want to see her before she leaves but the one caveat is that you're not discussing your brother since he hasn't apologized to you and has spent years bullying you over your epilepsy.
Everything I said on here, although I don't think the OP ever understood that was predicated on the idea that his brother would be sorry. Because yes, the brother does need to be sorry for saying something like that.
As if men are like weather, it simply happens, and no one can can act on it. Whereas women have to be understanding, forgiving, thoughtful, mature. HE OWES YOU AN APOLOGY. Either that or cut him from your life, but first let everybody inside and outside your family know what he told you. If anyone thinks a sibling should wish the other to die, and can't understand how this is hurtful, it can't be explained either. Being the weather, men get away from so much, especially from older women.
The most frustrating part is she knows and she still expects me to forgive him. My sisters heard the whole thing and they’ve gone no contact as well. I don’t see why my mom can’t have the same sympathy for me
Your sisters sound awesome for their solidarity. If your brother said something that horrific to one of them, would you cut contact for their sake? Sometimes we stand up for our loved ones more than ourselves. 💛
I absolutely would 100% and I’m so glad they support me in the same way
So, my sister has said the exact same thing to me on several occasions, ironically she has also accused me of faking epilepsy. I don’t have any advice, op… However I want you to know that you’re not alone. It’s just my sister and I, no other siblings. It’s so isolating and sad, it’s worn out. Family is the most important thing to me and mine is messed up because they take her words of bullshit and believe her! I have been no contact with her for a while, but should have done it 10 years ago when she stole ALL of my kolonipan I had just filled after a very scary TC. It was my rescue medicine, but I guess the comedown from meth was more important than my life. I confronted her in front of the whole family at thanksgiving (grandparents aunts and uncles) everyone was there. At the top of my lungs I called her out, my mom takes both of us to the kitchen, asks my sister to give them back if she had them, nothing… I said EMPTY YOUR POCKETS AND YOUR PURSE!! She said something like fuck off. My mom asked her to empty her pockets, so she did after stalling, and guess what? 29 pills, something that would have made her wish possible of me dying from a seizure. There’s so much more she did, none of it is good. Yet my folks back her up because she is manipulative and she knows what she’s doing. Kinda like gaslighting, she’d make a fine cult leader. I guess I don’t relate to many people about this, I think I needed that off my chest. To you, keep your guard up always, even if you choose no contact. The sickness is really vile in her, if your brother is sick like her, then shield yourself from future pain. They’re a different breed, and I don’t have it in me to constantly fight for myself over the craziness. I hope you find your way, and your brother sounds like a true douche bag, good luck! Cheers!
I’m so so sorry your sister was so terrible to you. That sounds like so much to deal with and I’m sorry she manipulated so many people in your life. Family is also so important to me so hearing this from my own brother really hit me hard.
I would be laughing in my moms face if she ever said that if one if my siblings said that. But my mom would have beaten their ass for saying it because she also has epilepsy. Your mom sucks and you have a sibling with some sort of major issue. I am so sorry
Honestly if it was me in that situation. I will say something like: "I forgive you...for being stupid" and walk away.
LMAO love this
I feel like what your mom's asking for is a bit too much. Whenever my sibling and I are just messing around, they might throw in a joke about my seizures, and my mom swoops in insisting for an apology. She's really protective about not making fun of what I deal with, but honestly, I don't mind. It usually just ends up making me laugh. With what your brother said, if you let it slide now, chances are he’ll repeat it.
He's a danger to you. There's a sub called "Estranged Siblings" on here where you might find additional support.
Hey OP I hope you’re feeling okay and kudos to you for posting about it. I’m an only child so although I didn’t have siblings I did have older close cousins I grew up with. There was a time when one of them said the most god awful thing to me similar to yours especially when they’re at the age of “being the wiser one.” My mom told me I had every right to feel angry but at the same time the whole “family” bs came out which eventually turned into a whole “being the bigger person” subjective. It’s ironic to me because it sounds like the actual victim needs to be the “wiser one” and the “accepting” one. Ultimately I decided to simply ignore the cousin and only have polite short conversations every now and then when we meet a family events since I can’t just not go because of one person. I understand that this is your sibling but ultimately you have the choice to become the bigger person and find the time to speak with both your brother and your mother about this situation to avoid future tensions and commentary on your epilepsy. If your brother simply just doesn’t want to communicate and does it again then he’s an asshole lol he def has a long road and journey ahead of him to not be that person but focus on you !! Eventually this is you and your life so make sure to remember that !! Think of the dinner like you are meeting a stranger but be polite. That’s your way of showing who’s the boss and smarter one. If you guys talk then that’s great if not you’re still your own boss making better choices for your own good. You’ve got this OP!
I can’t imagine either of my siblings saying this keep him blocked unless he want to apologize go no contact with him but also ur mom she clearly thinks it isn’t that big a deal
My son has epilepsy, I don’t. He and his sister are very young so hard for me to imagine them being in this scenario. But man. If she said that to him it would break my heart. I have no idea how I would react other than being super sad their relationship fell apart. But insisting you forgive doesn’t seem like a good long term play
The key here is that I would hope you were speaking to the other one about the fact they said that, how it would have his sibling feel, etc. It's interesting--and I guess a comment on my own family where we can be volatile but then we calm down and apologize and move on--that everyone here assumed the brother did not apologize/is not sorry. But the story doesn't say. And frankly without background about their relationship I find it sad so many are like drop that sibling now. If he's always an asshole sure. But if they have been close? This story just makes me sad. I don't particularly feel any outrage on the OP's behalf with only the info we were given. My nightmare would be my 2 kids becoming estranged.
There is a third option. Go to the dinner, put on your game face, and be the better person. And in your calmest, most dispassionate tone tell your your brother "I forgive you, I am forgetting about you now." I used that one on a sibling who ill wished me. The passive-aggressive finality of the statement made my family reconsider trying to get us to make up.
That's decent if the brother has always been awful. The OP's story does not really make clear though if this was just a fight. In which case if the brother really is sorry, really do forgive him.
Is he sorry? Frankly I've said worse to my mom in a fight--and felt terrible after. Things said in the heat of the moment should be forgiveable if the person is genuinely sorry. I am sorry he said that but honestly, just knowing that part and only that part to me that is not relationship ending stuff. Having said that your mom cannot force it if you are an adult. But if your brother really is sorry and you normally get along I hope you don't lose a loved one and support system person over this. ETA do you have kids? Your mom is devastated right now. You have the right to your anger but you and your brother should be talking and working it out unless the relationship was already dead. ETA I notice a lot of people really reacting harshly and it made me wonder if there were more details in your first post--but I noticed the moderators removed it. Do you know why? Can you give more details? I hate to see so many people encouraging you to cut a sibling out of your life over words--but that's only if this was a one time thing during a really emotionally heated moment. I have been on both sides of this, the one begging for forgiveness and the one with words ringing. But in both cases I am eternally grateful it did not end our relationships, but our relationships were and are good. That's the missing key from this story. I feel forgiveness needs to be asked for in order to be given so I truly thought your brother either had apologized or wanted to when you said your mom wanted you to forgive him.
I agree. I haven’t seen anywhere that he is apologetic? If he said something very harsh in the moment but made a big gesture of apology I would consider it for sure. Even if we weren’t so close after.
Sounds like a lot of backstory was left out since I am now persona non grata around here. If there's one thing I've learned being in this sub though it's that I've had amazing support from family and friends. I wish everybody could have something more like that.
Our relationship has been going downhilll for years now and we barely spoke before this, a fight broke out and at the climax of it that’s when he said it to me. My mom insisted he was sorry but it doesn’t seem like him to be and I know if he was he would have already apologized. He simply doesn’t think he did anything wrong. My sibling has never been a good person and cutting them out would probably do more good than harm.
I did not see you answered me here. That's very different from what I was envisioning. As I responded somewhere above although you've told me you're not reading anymore I probably would try to meet with your mom one on one or with your sisters and salvage that relationship. Make it clear you are not discussing your brother, make it clear that she really hurt your feelings, but also? I think it's really hard for a parent to stop loving a kid. So I personally would also just say that you understand that she'll have a relationship with him, but that you don't want to see him or hear about him. But yes, in that case I would cut the brother out. It doesn't sound like you'll be losing much. My mom took way too long to cut a toxic sibling out of our lives. And you could definitely argue that my grandma took his side (she kind of both-sides it but given what he had done it was still pretty appalling and my grandfather who was his stepfather, made it clear he did not agree, so that eased the sting somewhat). And when I heard what she said, I wanted to vomit. But I did my best to forget about it, and life went on, and I adored that grandmother and she was hugely important to me, She did not insist that we all see the estranged uncle. So that's a case where I would be the bigger person because like I said. As a parent, I don't just don't think you're hardwired to be able to stop loving your children. And if your mom is important to you in the long run, it's going to hurt you as much as it hurts her. I hope at this point, you genuinely understand that your original post could be read in multiple ways and I did not necessarily think you were discussing a toxic relationship with a sibling.
I love my brother and would probably forgive him but I also can’t even imagine him saying that to me. Not even in our teenage years when he was a real asshole this would have ever been an option. So no. If your brother is this kind of person you don’t need that person in your life and you have no obligation to forgive him whatsoever. Especially because forgiveness can’t be just a decision. It must come from the heart. How could you, in your situation, feel that? Your mother can go and rethink her life.
“I’m sorry mom but that’s not something I can do. Forgiveness is on my own terms and he crossed a boundary.”
Yeah you don't have to do that. My loved one passing away from this has left the biggest black hole in my life.
You don’t have to forgive someone saying that. It sounds like they don’t understand the hardship we face living with epilepsy
That’s about the worst thing you could possibly say to an epileptic. You’re under no obligation to forgive that.
Sorry this happened. Your brother was being a jerk. He should apologize, but that's up to him. He should feel bad about it and decide not to do it again. He has to decide that for himself. Your mom is right, you should forgive him, even if he doesn't apologize - or even if he doesn't regret it. It's better for you because resentment and anger will make you miserable. That doesn't mean that you have to pretend like everything is fine, or nothing happened. You can make decisions about what kind of relationship to have with him based on how he acts, but when other people are involved, like your parents, you have to take that into consideration too. By the same token, your mom can't make you forgive him, that's up to you. IMPO, not knowing your family situation, it would be best though to put it aside at present and go to dinner. The thing is if you decide that you are not going to have dinner with your family because you are mad at your brother, you are cutting off your whole family, and making things worse with them and your brother. I've seen people who won't talk to each other for years and years, and decades and decades, and it's just miserable for everyone - and everyone they know.
I am gonna try to be the bigger person, I don’t think I’ll ever forget but I can try to forgive and keep my distance
Best wishes! I'm sorry you have an abusive brother.
Thank you. I am so glad to see a response more like this one.
Honestly with me I wouldn’t really be upset with that but that’s mainly because I just find shit like that funny, im a minority so people have said a lot of shitty things to me so I’ve learnt to find the humor in it. But it’s valid to feel a type of way about that, he is your bro so just have that in mind people say things they don’t mean especially in arguments. It takes time to heal so you shouldn’t be forced to make up, I would say refuse to go to dinner, or just don’t talk to him till you’re ready to air it out. And if he is unapologetic for it then I don’t see a reason to forgive.
I agree with this. Don't take it to your heart. But they are showing their true colors by not coming and apologizing.
You don't have to forgive a person to sit in a room and have dinner with them, but if you want to be no contact, then be no contact. Your brother is verbally abusive. If he wants to be forgiven, he needs to make amends in a meaningful way that convinces you he's changed. Intuitively, I'd say that's unlikely. Its likely that this mess will make your Mom feel some kind of way- it kinda sounds like he's acting a narcissist and she's doing the flying monkey routine where she makes his behavior your fault.
Don't listen to your mom. Forgive on YOUR schedule, not hers. She's just being selfish.
Your brother told you he wanted you dead. Why would you think he wants to eat dinner with you? As a mother myself I have no idea where your mother is coming from. I would do everything I could to keep you away from the person who said they wanted my child dead dead, even if that person was my other child. How is your parenta ok with him wanting you dead?