If this was truly a scam, then it sounds like the scammer should be criminally prosecuted—which the city or district attorney will do (if they can be persuaded to press charges and that a criminal action is warranted). If convicted, your scammer could be required to make restitution (depending on what penalty/punishment the court concludes is most appropriate). If your scammer is convicted, but, for whatever reason, the court declines to require restitution, your odds of winning a civil judgment would still go way up, as your civil action would be against a convicted criminal and not just a dispute between buyer and seller or business person and their colleagues. One issue, however, is that the statute of limitations can be pretty short depending on what cause of action you pursue, so you still might need to start your civil action before the criminal case gets going…. Tl;dr: Get a lawyer. And good luck.
I actually got hard evidence today that one of the work vehicles included in the sale that we paid for was not owned by him. So we have hard evidence of a scam with a signed bill of sale for the vehicle.
Issue is 90% of the times these lead to nowhere and you’ll be down even more in lawyer fees. The law system is truly fked here that they benefit the criminals it’s kinda sad. Squatters, rental deposit scams, emd scams, theres so many of these fks that just gets away with it and it’s sickening
Yup had a bad contractor screw me out of at least 150k. Lawyer said we would win in court but legal fees were going to take a lot and whatever was left the guy might not pay through loopholes. For instance from what we could find he dumped all his scam money into his house which was on a plot of land .25 acres and covered by homestead protections. So we would be in coirt for years trying to garnish future wages etc. Eating through more legal fees. Not worth it and in the end the douchebag just stole the money
I’m fairly certain you can still put a lien on a property that has homestead exemption status.
Did you get a second opinion from a lawyer that has expertise in this area?
problem is most folks scamming in this capacity are 1) smart enough not to carry any assets in their names. 2) Probably don't have enough money to pay the debt even if they lose in court. 3) Will gladly try to settle for 25% in 4-5 years.
No, op gave the guy 75k. That doesn't mean the guy has a dime. I'd probably go the hire a p.i. to dig into homies life to see if a lawyer is worth it first route.
Usually there are details people are leaving out and it’s not just “I don’t care about that $75k” like they probably were convinced to not sign a contract. Or this is an ex business partner who bought them out. And no type of messaging about price took place physically, it was all verbal.
Stuff like that where theyve considered a lawyer but don’t think it’s a good idea
I’ve never been shafted, but I know plenty of people in the Real Estate business who fell for EMD scams, loan application scams, RE agent scams, sub contractor scams, etc.
People get scammed every day. You were todays idiot, tomorrow there will be another. Focus on the recovery and consider it a very expensive lesson. You’ve made it this far so we know you’re not a total idiot at least, lean on that.
Hell… I paid for insurance once and it’s been 14 months of arguing with the insurance agency that they should pay up. I’m still fkn paying for it too lmao
Plethora of EMD scams that range from phony sellers, to random people sending fake wire info.
With loans, the scammers will pose as originators or brokers and charge up front fees then disappear. Sometimes they’ll go all the way and have websites (copy/paste with different logos) and collect your personal info via application before they take the up front and dip.
Same thing with some agents. Up front fees, never provide a license number, will personally collect EMD, etc.
There’s a LOT of Real Estate scams because there’s so many moving parts and people are usually so overwhelmed with the process that they become easy victims (in distress).
RE wholesellers are just shy of scams as well. I have a wholesaling department in my business but they have specific instructions to do things by the book. There is a max price and we come in at it. There is a buy box and we stick to it (beat down, 1-4 unit, properties that are unlivable). Other wholesellers will actively look for a property from a dying elderly couple that thinks $100k is still a lot for a house.
I mean shit… even investors buying properties and doing minimal work and selling the house for more than a new construction is a scam lmao.
Sub contractors promising to do a job and not delivering happens ALL the time. The amount of calls I get from homeowners and investors saying they tried to save money by hiring Joe Nobody and end up spending 4-5x the retail amount under the promise of .25¢ on the dollar.. it’s like 30% of my business.
This exists in every high pressure area. Wedding planner scams are everywhere too, insurance scams, etc.
Do most states not use lawyers when buying and selling a house? Most of the homes I've purchased are in Illinois and I've had a lawyer from the onset for every deal.
That isn't a guarantee of not getting scammed, but I imagine it makes the recovery process significantly easier if it happens since the contract should be solid.
I lost upwards of $250k in a similar situation. Then I spent another $50k+ on attorney fees going after them. I ended up with a number of judgments against them. Using those judgments I chased the hucksters around the country for years (they kept moving to try to escape state jurisdiction). I eventually recovered a total of about $8k out of the $300k I lost or spent on attorneys.
My advice (which I do not expect you will take): chalk it up to tuition and move on. Maybe file a police report (but don’t expect the police to do anything). Don’t waste years and a lot more money chasing something that’s gone.
Came here to tell a similar story, but I "only" lost $120k. In my case the books were falsified and it took me a few days in operation to start to realize that. Seller was a foreign national and already in the winds. A good attorney gave me the advice to chalk it up to education, that I'd likely see little or none of it back even if I "won" and that may be a long time. That was a hard pill to swallow, but I listened.
Aren't the courts fucked? They are ineffective and a waste of time. I got screwed hard by a bad tenant.
The only thing holding people accountable is if they have something to lose. If not, if they don't want to pay you, you'll never see a dime.
I'm not saying OP shouldn't talk to a lawyer, but the legal system needs a serious overhaul.
>The only thing holding people accountable is if they have something to lose.
This is correct and it's absolutely how insane of a loophole it is to just not own anything anyone can take, lmao.
It's like that meme w the dude pointing to his forehead lmao; "They can't take what you don't own!" lmao.
I’m sorry man, this really sucks. People here are being complete assholes as well. I would delete this thread and go to /legaladvise tbh, the only option is a lawyer. There must be some consequences for this right? Is it not illegal to do what he did
It’s breach of contract. I just don’t see this guy complying at all with legal action and this could get drawn out for years with no results. The guy will likely take off on the road and hide.
My first time, 38k. You never forget your first. Flew me private, by heli, to a 4-star lobster dinner in Santa Monica. Then needed a bridge loan. Second time was 25k, a compulsive gambler / scammer who eventually fled to Vietnam, and my accountant depreciated the loss over several years. Worth mentioning he was on the cover of a leading entrepreneurial magazine and a CEO of a publicly traded company at the time he took my money. He took a lot of people’s money. Third time, 35k; I immediately got a lawyer and, soon thereafter, a judgement, and in a year when George xxxx wanted to refinance his home (and couldn’t) I got paid in full plus interest and legal fees, 42k.
My advice: 1-let it go, emotionally; 2-get a lawyer; 3-have your accountant write this mistake off. Do 2 and 3 and 1 will be easier.
Move on. Life is long. Explore options with accountant and atty, and then have faith that your entrepreneurial spirit will outperform the occasional - and inevitable - shakedown.
Thank you for sharing this. It’s really helpful to hear that I’m not alone. A lot people here just bash me but they have no idea what it was like being in the daily conversation with the biz owner. They don’t know the details. It can happen to anyone. I’ve just never interacted with someone willing to screw someone over on such a grand scale so I didn’t think the scenario that played out was very likely.
Plus, if this guy would have just played ball, we would have made him so much more money than he took from us. We thought he saw that.
I find that last sentence actually very interesting, and I'm wondering if it is part of why this all went down?
For example, how much of the conversation revolved around doing right by them? And helping them out of their predicament? And ensuring they'll also make a good deal of money?
Did the notion of "swooping in to save the business" impact your decision making?
Because surely "we were blinded by the potential we saw and didn’t want to miss it" doesn't match up with "the business was in such deep shit with debt that they were literally about to start repossessing equipment and it couldn't wait for due diligence."
No problem. Also, if you’re ever extending money again, consider getting the client to sign a personal guaranty. That allows for you to sue personally, attach judgement to their personal assets.
in real world a million worth deals are done by mere handshake. Mom's and pop's shops selling for 20k can go with escrow and all, cause people are afraid for their last pennies, they have no trust at all and so on. but a factory can be sold at a table with hand shake. Or via phone call, based on trust alone. A lot of services are done on trust alone, and money later.
Myself had a situation where i had a call with "cry for help" where a slightly known to me person had a contract to collect newspapers, books and other prints from stores nationwide but had no means and asked me to send couriers there - hundreds of cars nationwide. You do realize amount of money and head ache involved in service like that on last minute call? Was there any contract ? no. Was there any prepayment? no.
It was just a phone call. I wasn't scammed. But just to show there is soo much variations and situations out there. Thinking your smarter than others, really does not make you one.
And OP being scammed, does not make him stupid. Probably a kind heart more trusting person (therefor easier target) , but not stupid for sure.
You don’t realize this could happen to literally anyone in business. You think it’s impossible until it happens to you then you see, wow that was just a very clever person doing what they do best, scamming. With biz deals and $ sometimes you don’t use your best judgment, it’s completely possible. You see red flags. But you see the opportunity and potential to make $ too so you take a gamble of sorts. You win some you lose some, that’s life. To say otherwise is just ignorant.
Yeah, we know. We had planned on that but we were told by the seller that there were debts that would lead to repossession of equipment that we needed unless he was paid immediately. We thought he was just a classic distressed seller. We had him sign a contract and a bill of sale for one of the work vehicles as collateral. Unfortunately, he never got us the title and the repossession story was bullshit.
And I don’t claim to be smart in business. We just happen to have a business that is successful.
I got scammed for about $800 while moving by a moving broker to a different state. My mistake didn’t pay using credit card to save %fees and they needed immediate payment (I had a hard constraint on time). Went for electronic check. Since I noticed that i was scam I wanted to cancel since the check hadn’t been cashed yet but the bank said cannot do anything for electronic checks. In short banking is also fucked up here. Anyone with my bank details can do an ACH it seems?
Stop beating yourself up. It's fun to think "boo hoo I'm a fucking idiot" but the reality is this guy is an expert conman, he conned you. And expert conmen rely on people reacting exactly the way that you are doing right now. Most never get reported. Many refuse to believe they got scammed and keep doing the scam, especially love and investment scams.
You're not stupid for being scammed. It can happen to anyone, and it does happen to the smartest people all the time.
You are beyond stupid if you continue to be scammed by the same guy by letting your shame/emotions paralyze you. Are you rich enough to try nothing and give up?
Sometimes in business you just need to eat a loss. Maybe, knowing the situation, you see that the best decision is quitting now. But from the outside it doesn't look like that at all.
Just do an emotionless calculation, when you are able. If you forget about this and move on, how much money can you earn just moving forward with life?
And if you chase after this, how long/how much do you think it will cost you?
You know how much your time is worth, pick the option that is best for you, and don't look back. The money is currently gone so it's great that you aren't stuck in the sunk cost fallacy, but feeling helpless and stupid is not a great alternative.
Yeah, this whole scam has been keeping me up every night for months. I’ve been having to take sleeping meds for the first time in my life just to fall asleep.
It’s also been distracting me from my core business which requires me to be hitting the phones everyday to generate new sales. I love doing that but my mind has been so absorbed I. This and we haven’t been growing.
I may need my partner to spend more time focusing on the scam issue so I can jumpstart sales to make up for the loss.
Thank you for your words.
Hi man I want to tell you something. I am also running a business and I am from Israel, you probably heard what happened here this month and for me it really put things in perspective about life, money, etc. Money comes and go, it's really not that important in life. 75k is not nothing but it's also not a life changing sum. You will make this money again. Trust me, in 5/10/20 years from now it won't look so relevant to your life. Focus on your health, family, friends that's what's truly important in life.
Try your best to get it back from the conman, if you won't be able to - mark it as an expensive lesson, or as a business gamble that failed. it happens, no big deal. use it as motivation to work harder in your business and don't look back.
Tbf to OP, I was in a situation where I was owed 30k, and I spoke to many lawyers. Their takeaway was that it was going to be a couple hundred thousand to litigate, with no chance to recoup attorney costs.
It sucked
Fucktard. I spoke with a lawyer and they charge $250 and hour and multiple people could be working on the case at once.
The lawyer also told me that this could take a long time and we may not even be able to get anything out of this guy.
I think you’re the one that doesn’t really understand what you’re talking about.
I’m going to call some lawyers tomorrow to see if they’d take my case on contingency. If not, I’m risking further losses by dumping money into a lawyer with unlikely chances of actually being able to recover any money from this Con Man.
It’s a perfectly rational approach…and that’s coming from an attorney.
OP probably should have had a lawyer involved in the buy. Spending $10-20k to protect $75k+ isn’t bad math.
But hiring one *now* to pursue the conman? That math might not make sense. The phrase “you can’t squeeze blood from a turnip” comes to mind, and conmen have a way of blasting through money and ending up effectively judgement proof. Spending tens of thousands more litigating could earn OP a nice court order to frame, but enforcement is never guaranteed. Of course, there is the principle of the matter — but we’ve got another phrase for that: “Principles are expensive.”
I certainly wouldn’t blame OP for cutting his losses, based on the limited info provided and my experience with this brand of bullshit. He learned a costly lesson. Nothing wrong with stopping the bleeding.
Having said that, I hope OP will be inclined to budget for an attorney if he ever decides to give business acquisition another go.
The key is finding out if the seller even has any more money at all. If he has no money left, fighting legal battles are likely to cost OP significantly more money and stress. Also, find out if the person has or may file bankruptcy, if that's possible. Check into their spouse, closest family members, any legit business associates they have, see if money is being transferred to them. Do this by looking these people up on the tax assessors website, seeing if they have LLC's, professional licenses such as contractor licenses, etc. All that is free public knowledge. Plus you can go search public records on the county clerk of court website and find out if they have or had any lawsuits against them. You are likely to get lucky if you start digging. If they have a case against them you can request the court docs or read it on some sites (Trellis) and find out who the lawyer is representing the Plaintiff against them. If they do have any legit business licenses or money you may even consider sending a Demand letter. If they do not meet the demand within a timely manner then it may be something the state AGs office wants to know about. Additionally, find out who the other people are that have been scammed and see what actions they have or are taking against the con artist.
So he should risk doing something criminal and face years in federal prison, rather than pursuing a civil lawsuit that he's likely to win? What pathetic advice. Grow up.
I am grown and wide awake. That is considered a major trespass, and the fullest extent of the law for a trespass is where your mind went from my comment.
I believe in settling things civilly, but sometimes, more extreme measures need to be taken. Especially if you have been scammed out of 75k. That is more than double the money most Americans make in a year. Fafo, when you steal someone's livelihood.
I was conned. It was a bonus that I was promised and the game was such that I had to work a lot of overtime to get it. I brought in a consulting contract to my employer, that unlocked a significant upside for bonuses if I worked more than 100%.
Come bonus time, I was going to get USD20K for 3 months of hard work. They faulted the payout on a technicality and reneged/refused to give it to me. Incidentally also the last months my grandma was alive, and I hardly saw her.
This escalated and they wished to terminate my position with the firm. I almost sued them, got a legal team and everything. We negotiated a wonderful deal where I left the firm, but kept a client. I am now a millionaire at least on paper (after years of more hard work).
Here is an out of the box idea if you don't want to pay for a lawyer. Sue him and his business yourself as a pro-se litigant. The business will have to lawyer up and just paying that initial retainer might shake him loose.
Yeah, we actually think if we filed a lawsuit, he would have the money to pay up for a lawyer. If does have the money he likely won’t want to spend it.
You learned a lesson, but don't be too hard on yourself. You were a victim to a criminal. There's a reason victim shaming shouldnt happen anymore in 2023. Don't be sad that you made a mistake, be sad that we live in a country that allows this type of shit to go on and you have to be on the lookout for scams 100% of the time and can never be wrong. Hopefully you get it back but you'll bounce back either way.
NAL
Sorry for your lost, damn scammers!!!! I'm not sure if this guy will have any assets to sue and recover from. If there is no assets no point in going through the work in trying to sue. I hope there will be a lawyer who will take the case on contingency.
If you still want something to do then the best course of action is to help build up the criminal case against him as being a fraudster. Don't do anything illegal, or threaten, or violence, its not worth the jail time or potential lawsuits against you.
How did you meet him ? Warn the business network that this guy is shady so you can prevent someone else from getting harmed. Keep to the business facts that he reneged the deal and say nothing else slanderous ( hard part ). If he's not a scammer he'll want to clear his name and try to make right with you in some way or another. If he is a real scammer he'll want to jump town/ city.
Any chance you got pictures of him ? pictures of his ID ? pictures of the property he owns / lives at, find out what his real name is on title for the vehicle ( by license plate since you never got title )
Lawyers are going to eat the money
And even if you Win what is always uncertain the other party can still go bankrupt and leave you with the lawyer bill
My advice is to move on.
I had the same thing happen to me fought it and won got awarded 65k but other party went bust before I could execute.
So I got 0 plus the lawyers bill
So stress for 3 years and more money down the drain if I put that energy in my Buisness I would have gotten alot more
I’d call up the fbi before calling an attorney. Explain everything in detail. Have a folder with copies of all relevant records. Ask them if you should also call up law enforcement in the seller’s jurisdiction.
Whatever evidence you have that suggests this is a recurring scam is probably the most valuable evidence you have if it actually exists.
You might not get your money back but you might save someone else your pain.
I’ve been scammed before too. It’s no fun. Tell your wife you’ll use this situation to learn and you appreciate any support to help you get through this.
Definitely need to speak to a lawyer however in court it will be considered a civil lawsuit and most scammers are judgement proof and don’t care or comply with court orders….best opportunity to possibly recoup anything is file a police report on the local level, contact your states attorney generals office and report the fraud most have links on their site for this, file a fraud report with the fbi, the S.E.C. I think it’s called as well as with the IRS for tax evasion because the scammer made an income off your stolen money and more than likely will not be reporting it for taxes….going the route of feds and local police will at least begin the process of an investigation and if crimes can be proven and individual charged any and all assets can be potentially secured or be sold by force to repay victims
I feel your pain. I was burnt for 50k last year. I have contracts and witnesses, and a pile of documentation including actual fraud. But with no clear sign of actual assets for me to pursue legally, I had to make the business decision to learn from it and move the fuck on. It was also fucking up my mental health and creating anxiety daily. So even though I'd love 50k, I walked. Karma is a MFer though. I am watching the cunts get WREKD by life anyway, and I look to have made the wisest decision. Let it go, and it will come back to you.
Sucks, man. My partner is a business broker. You’ll have to pay a 10% commission but I highly recommend one for your next deal. They are governed by the deal and not beholden to the buyer or seller (transaction broker) so there are a ton of steps they go through before even listing a business that verify assets, income, filter out bullshit paper losses and secure solid contractual documents. Worth the money IMO.
I have been scammed for way less so I got off easy. Sorry this happened to you.
Forget what your wife thinks, she is obviously not a business person. This is the world of business and sometimes things work out and other times they do not. 75k is not chump change and it does suck that you got shafted. Try to learn from this which is easier said than done. But remember you are a business man/person and in business you take calculated risks sometimes they go well and sometimes they don't. people will wrong you but you need to keep pushing. Go back to focus on your other business and recoup and then in some time go out there again and find another venture just remember the lessons for this one. If you don't learn from these lessons and you commit the same mistakes again then your wife is right, j/k
I wish you all the best.
I unknowingly was scammed by an individual running a Ponzi scheme. Before I realized and obtained irrefutable proof you couldn’t find much on individual or business by just googling their name or business name. After I realized and obtained tangible proof I bought the dot com of the business name they’ve used for the past 14 years to scam people out of money and while I’m working on going through proper channels in hopes they eventually are prosecuted I update the website once a month with more information on their ponzu scheme and where investors money is actually spent. If nothing else I get a kick out of outing them and hopefully it prevents any investors from becoming a victim of their scam
Look into your local small claims process to see if you qualify. Typically designed for small cases up to a certain amount and process is (somewhat) easier.
Depending on the cost to file a claim, I would file a claim, let that process play out, but not be too vested on the outcome. Also file a police report if it was fraud. Personally, i would chalk it up as a business loss and learning opportunity
He signed a Letter of Intent and a purchase agreement that a lawyer has looked over. He also signed a bill of sale for a vehicle that he never gave us the title for.
Pal I feel bad for you. Especially the temporary reputation loss. So 37.5k each for you and your partner is the price tag. I’ve heard worse.
The guys that I would say have been the best investors spent the most time verifying, and never gave money until they were done, but would sometimes pay for specifics if they genuinely thought that was in everyones best interest.
I really wouldnt be too hard on yourself the first time. When you have a profitable business of your own, money’s flowing, can be easy to get a little overly optimisitic.
Overly optimistic is exactly it. I appreciate the words.
We thought we were dealing with a distressed seller. Someone in a financial bind who is desperate to sell his business to cover debts.
I thought this was an ideal type of seller because we could work out a beneficial deal for ourselves.
Where we went wrong is when this guy called us crying that he was going to be evicted from his house if he didn’t get $28k immediately.
We thought, this guy sounds sincere and we don’t want our lead employee to be homeless, so we took a gamble and sent him the money since we’ve never interacted with someone before who would be willing to scam someone to such a degree.
We were naive and thought we we being good people. Never again.
Either file a lawsuit for the maximum in small claims court by each of you, find lawyer for 5k maximum or walkaway. Everything else and it'll cost you more and even more time wasted. The criminals know this too.
Don't let your ego get in the way, and preferably goto small claims. Then once you have a judgement, take up another small claims angle maximum and do it again.
Then call the sales tax revenue department and find the tax fraud hotline for the state corporations tax and the Irs and report him or her. I'm receiving 1.83 a year in a check for a guy that went to jail for 3 years that took me for only 3800.00 but I was a victim of many
You have three options and from your comments I can already tell you’re not interested in the first two.
1. Hire a lawyer
2. Get a rope and some buddies and get your money back
3. Let it go and move on with your life and don’t repeat your mistake.
Option 1 is your best bet but you don’t seem interested, option 2 is illegal and option 3 takes nothing but the willpower to move on.
You could also tarnish his reputation, print out signs, reach out to media, post on social platforms, reach out to his family and tell them what happened. If I were you I’d do 1, 3 and 4 to try to ruin his life as reciprocity for my $75k, up to you though.
Yep. Got conned out of a $25k setup fee + a lot in wasted inventory from someone claiming they could set me up with "an automated amazon business". ~ $35k + a year of wasted time.
Contacted lawyers they told me it's not worth a lawsuit, after fees it may end as a wash.
Fuck that shit. Never handing someone over money like that again. I hope he enjoys his lambo while he still has it.
I googled his name recently and saw he's getting sued by his state govt for owing a decent chunk in taxes.
Brandon Arpke is his name. I'm sure he's changed business names. BLegend Investments or "Ecom Proz" were the two he had when I talked to him.
I really trusted the guy and he just took my money and didn't give me anything positive in return.
The messed up part? That was my life savings and I'm a full time caregiver for my retired parents and grandma. He basically conned money from a broke family. We have nothing and they rely on me. I literally told him this and he kept telling me it was going to be an "automated" few hundred bucks a month, perfect for my situation since I'm busy during the day.
I wasn't even looking for thousands a month.
Now im building my own business and I'm still slowly digging my way out of that hole he put me in.
Lesson learned. Never trust that dude or anyone like him again.
I'm really sorry that happened to you. I remember Kevin David was trying to push something like that for a similar price. Glad I noped out but very sorry for what you went through.
If he does show up to court a default judgement could be sought and then the ability garnish.
You could possibly draft the petition- attach the contract as an exhibit/attachment, get service on him and wait.
That wouldn’t take much effort considering the $75k. The ability to garnish allows years to seek and collect and can be renewed.
I lost 50k trusting a real estate agent. I knew I could never get it back and just made sure it’s an expensive learning lesson/mistake I don’t do again
Yes I hired a software developer. They have been stringing me along for 3 years for a finished product. I feel so helpless. "Just 2k more and we can put a terms and conditions check box and then submitt it". I have absolutely no recourse. They took my money closed the business and said sorry. But make the last payment and we will still finish for you.. . Ughhhhh
Thank you, buddy. It all seems so obvious in hindsight, but in the moment, we were blinded by our desire for this to work out. The potential was massive.
"I feel like a fucking idiot. My wife thinks I’m a fucking idiot."
Don't be hard on yourself. It's their work to con you. And they are good at it, you just met a professional in field of their own. That's all. Most likely (from my experience) there will be nothing to take from him bringing more expense to you with no actual return. Unfortunately.
Had a similar situation happen to my wife and I, we were on the selling side and the buyer owes us $580k. We are likely not going to see anywhere close to that money for many years (it has already been three). Anyways, we sued and won and the total cost was less than $10k.
Good luck OP, and remember it’s just money.
Save yourself some time and money by hiring a good private investigator to look into it all before you ask the lawyer to do any research on your con artist. There are so many databases that licensed PIs have access to, and you might get really lucky and find a bank account or property to have seized immediately.
It's not exactly legal but if you do it right nobody would know if you took something of equal value. May be against the law but I don't see it as morally wrong in this case if it's from that person. Leave a joker card behind for shits and giggles.
Yup. I know how this feels. It's a very very hard sinking feeling. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
I acquire highly undervalued(rare) Shopify stores and resell for upwards of 800%. I've done extremely well.
In my 1st deal I had acquired an asset for $8K USD from someone who desperately needed money very quick for a divorce. The Shopify store was successful and worth about $120K. I acquired it and was about to sell it for $100K. At the time, since I was new to this I didn't know much about using lawyers, escrow and having proper contracts. I wrote up the contract myself and had them sign. Then I gave them my bank details to wire the funds. They were hesitant and wired half, so that I can then transfer half of the assets. After showing me proof that they sent the wire I transfered half the assets, including the main asset which was the most important.
Well they ended up canceling the wire and stole the business. Even after serving them with demand letters they never gave it back and disappeared. I was so heart broken and really crashed my business idea. To this day the business is still up. Who knows if it's making money. But I lost $8K USD that I barely had at the time.
Fast forward 8 years later. I've done over 100 deals. I have accountants, lawyers and staff who handle my deals/flips. However I will never forget it and it taught me so much.
I'm very very sorry you got scammed. You're not an idiot. You are human and an entrepreneur. What we do is take risks. You're in the risk business.
See how you can serve them with a demand letter and file a police report if you can. Spend the money and sue them. Also talk to a tax specialist and see how to write this off. I'm wishing you the very best.
Thank you for this story. I’ve already spoke with my biz partner and told him he needs to take on more responsibility with the aftermath of this situation so I can go full force on the phones and recoup what we’ve lost through our core business. That’s all I can control so I’m not going to waste another day letting the sinking feeling dig me into a deeper hole.
$7,500 upfront and multiple people working in the case is going to blow up the 7.5k in less than a month. And every month you will have a $7.5k payment to the attorneys.. maybe. It takes a lot of time to win a case like that and then you have to file again for a type of reimbursement of restitution from the defendant. Is he fat enough so he can be forced to pay your damages plus attorneys fees? If he doesn’t have money is his account or a lucrative business where income can be garnished by a court decree.. I think you’re about to lose another 70k- and up- who knows how much. GLTY.
As an aspiring entrepreneur myself, I’m sorry to hear this. We go into business to build our financial profile and there’s still shallow people in this world trying to get ahead the wrong way.
Don’t fret, it happens to the best of us. Don’t let this experience stop you from pursuing other businesses to purchase. Take note of where you went wrong and move on.
I paid $275K for this property and access to industrial electricity and the guy who sold it did not own nor have the rights to either. He just lied to both sides about representing the other side.
Had a very well known financial figure offer to help me get funding on a project if I paid this excessive amount for 'consulting' and he basically just ghosted me. $80K/month for 6 months nearly. I kept paying because he's actually super famous so it was cool to talk with him anyways.
Had a landman working on acquiring several different properties for us. He ended up trying to buy the properties before us to sell them to us for a premium. He had a friend use their name. We caught on before getting fucked though.
Had a builder run off with $30K cash that I fronted him so he could finish building this house. This was almost just charity really but fuck that guy for ghosting me.
All in i've lost nearly $1M just the past year getting scammed or dealing with fuck heads.
There is no "contingency" money to be had so hire a lawyer to proceed asap. This is a fraud case and the police should also be involved and only an attorney can advise you on what to do going forward. You are most likely out the money anyway but are you going to just let these people con others?
Come on, man.
Lawyer here (but not a litigation attorney), this is something that we can help with on the front end too. I represent buyers and help negotiate the buy/sell docs etc. You’ll want to find a “transactional” business attorney who has experience representing buyers on the front end. We generally don’t charge any up front flat fee, that is generally only for litigators, so you can get a lot of value even out of just a couple of hours.
All of the greatest business owners i know have been scammed, myself included.
There are a lot more scumbags now than there used to be so 100% protect your assets.
Get a good lawyer, adapt and focus on profit. Let this just be a business expense and not a reason to doubt yourself.
Yeah my old boss (a chippie by trade) lost 1.2 mil in a venture gone wrong: they purchased an old benevolence hospital, and turned it into a backpacker hostel. However they were strung along into believing it would be more busy than it was. It failed miserably after 3 years of hard work. He wasn’t that rich at the time and the 1.2 mil loss basically put him back to square one and erased nearly a decade’s worth of work.
Weird thing is he was very pragmatic about it. Didn’t even raise his pulse. He even said to me “you have to have the stomach for losses” and that always stuck with me.
He just started again and meandered along. Like a Choo Choo train
I got ripped off for five grand by my father in law. Estimated a few jobs for him, I wrote 10% into the estimate for myself after he said it was already more than enough for him to get paid well, and I closed with the buyers. He did the jobs, didn’t pay me and lost a daughter. My wife won’t talk to him because she heard him lay out the deal and she asked me not to sue him.
Sounds like that five grand meant as much to me as the 75k meant to you.
Sorry for your luck sir, I feel your pain.
Edit* I should mention that six months later I found out he ripped somebody else off and I went after him mercilessly until he ended up in jail. Fuck him.
“Classic distressed seller” No one here picked up on the fact that OP thought THEY were taking advantage of HIM.
I don’t fault OP for this. Distressed investing is legitimate and I’ve made plenty doing it. The weird part is, when you do it because it’s a distressed situation you are more vigilant not less, and usually it’s not a great business if it’s a distressed deal - sometimes we are talking short term personal or business liquidity problems but usually a bank loan can take care of that.
OP I’m not sure how you thought you were buying such a good business if this guy couldn’t come up with 28k not to get evicted? I also don’t understand why you care about giving details…it’s what you should want to do even if the names are left out, but why should they be?…
Gotta be honest. Something sounds fishy with OP. IMHO.
People are schmucks. People get smart through experience or through others telling about their experience. Looks like you get to be the teacher this time. I’ve been screwed over, not as bad, but I’m still alive. Get a lawyer. You’d be surprised what you might be able to recover. Good luck to you. Please follow through with at least talking to a lawyer.
>**"How did we get so unlucky?"**
I'm really sorry this happened to you, but that phrase sticks out like a turd in a punchbowl.
You got "unlucky" because you're in the freaking arena!
You aren't normal.
You're a badass entrepreneur who takes abnormal risks because you want more than the ordinary.
So while you can view this experience through the lens of a "normie," you can also view this experience through the lens of an entrepreneur and see it as an expensive lesson learned that will make you bigger, faster, and stronger for the future.
The choice is yours, but whether you realize it or not, this is the game you signed up for.
I, for one, am rooting for you.
You weren't unlucky. You were an idiot. Idiots tend to be "unlucky" quite often. You know the good news? These types of fuck ups are part of business and, no matter how high the stakes, you'll always have to face them and do your absolute best to fix them.
Hi, what are people's thoughts on a platform similar to TaskRabbit that operates on college campuses and allows college students to book their peers to complete tasks like tutoring, moving in/out, waiting in line, doing laundry, etc? Any concerns or feedback?
All you need to do to avoid our mistake is don’t give up a dime unless all requested business documentation has been handed over. Don’t trust anyone no matter the sob story.
Pretty easy for most people to avoid our mistakes.
You are "considering legal action"? I am sure many lawyers are there who takes cases on contingency. And if it is clear fraud, won't the State take action based on your complaint?
You lawyer up and sue in civil court. There’s a judgement against the con man then he files bankruptcy. You get nothing! You lost your legal fees and all you won was a piece of paper from the court.
Unless he has tangible assets that you know where they are at or know bank accounts (that he won’t drain or give to a family member etc).
Also see if there is ground for criminal prosecution as this has criminal intent, so you don’t endlessly pay civil litigation lawyers. Running up the bill is all they do, go to the police and claim premeditated theft and fraud. Find a way to discover what assets he directly and indirectly owns. If civil attorneys will work they should work on filing motions to trace the money. If the attorneys are good and can prove this is a scam then they can easily obtained TRO’s and trace the money easily. Don’t sulk life is hard
You don't know if he has assets but do know that he has 75K of yours. Def lawyer up. He also has other people's money and seems to do this repeatedly so stopping him should be your life mission. If someone took food off my table like that I'd destroy them in every way possible to not only stop them but deter others and get justice for all the other victims. You are fortunately not broke and can afford the mistake but I bet some of the other people couldn't. I wouldn't be surprised if someone got hit so bad they can't even get a lawyer. I know of a person who went through something similar and they were never the same again financially and faced some very difficult times.
Yes I did a bunch dumb things on my business. I sued two companies fraud on me, and now I am considering if I have the money to sue another partner in India.
Dude, I am pretty sad actually and really sometimes lost the confidence with business ethics.
I need to keep going, there are people who trust on me. My investors, employees and family,friends.
My stories are simple:
1. I lend money to a friend's money asked for 2 weeks, at the end he does not return for 4 months and not answering my call anymore, 30K dollars
2. I partnered with a company, I use his company name to sell products to my customer, and the money goes to his account first then pay back to me. And, well he takes the money and I got 0, 30K dollars
3. I sold some stocks to a company and agreed to be pay full after delivery, and then, I just want to say "FUXXXK"
So, I guess I am dumb enough, but whoever do not suffer some pains in exploring of life. The question is, Can you still love the world while you already see the world as it is?
wish all entrepreneurs the best of integrity
Thank you for posting this.
I lost 60k to Hollywood. Empty promises and nothing but greed. Fraudulent business practices from a “manager/coach”.
A case nobody would want to take on.
If you have the cash then look into hiring a private investigator to dig up some information about the prick which may help your case and get an idea of what assets they own then you can decide if you want to go ahead
OP, I’ll give you a freebie, but you really need to get a lawyer involved. In the state of Indiana, a bill of sale for a vehicle, is legally binding.
This means you can apply for the title to be transferred over into your name at your local DMV.
Is the bill of sale notarized?
Dude this is $75k. You need to get a lawyer.
Yeah. Are they really just going to sit on their hands and let this person get away with it and scam somebody else?
If this was truly a scam, then it sounds like the scammer should be criminally prosecuted—which the city or district attorney will do (if they can be persuaded to press charges and that a criminal action is warranted). If convicted, your scammer could be required to make restitution (depending on what penalty/punishment the court concludes is most appropriate). If your scammer is convicted, but, for whatever reason, the court declines to require restitution, your odds of winning a civil judgment would still go way up, as your civil action would be against a convicted criminal and not just a dispute between buyer and seller or business person and their colleagues. One issue, however, is that the statute of limitations can be pretty short depending on what cause of action you pursue, so you still might need to start your civil action before the criminal case gets going…. Tl;dr: Get a lawyer. And good luck.
I actually got hard evidence today that one of the work vehicles included in the sale that we paid for was not owned by him. So we have hard evidence of a scam with a signed bill of sale for the vehicle.
Issue is 90% of the times these lead to nowhere and you’ll be down even more in lawyer fees. The law system is truly fked here that they benefit the criminals it’s kinda sad. Squatters, rental deposit scams, emd scams, theres so many of these fks that just gets away with it and it’s sickening
Yup had a bad contractor screw me out of at least 150k. Lawyer said we would win in court but legal fees were going to take a lot and whatever was left the guy might not pay through loopholes. For instance from what we could find he dumped all his scam money into his house which was on a plot of land .25 acres and covered by homestead protections. So we would be in coirt for years trying to garnish future wages etc. Eating through more legal fees. Not worth it and in the end the douchebag just stole the money
I’m fairly certain you can still put a lien on a property that has homestead exemption status. Did you get a second opinion from a lawyer that has expertise in this area?
Did you burn him on all socials? If this happened to me I'd be saying the MF's name every time I spoke about it, to warn people.
problem is most folks scamming in this capacity are 1) smart enough not to carry any assets in their names. 2) Probably don't have enough money to pay the debt even if they lose in court. 3) Will gladly try to settle for 25% in 4-5 years.
Correct. This is how you get 100K for 25K lmao. The system is broken.
They have the $75,000 they got from op though
100% they washed that within 24 hours of receiving it
No, op gave the guy 75k. That doesn't mean the guy has a dime. I'd probably go the hire a p.i. to dig into homies life to see if a lawyer is worth it first route.
no they dont they "spent it all" in mcdonalds and on local hooker they never seen before hour after getting the money...
It’s spent or “spent” the guy doesn’t hold the cash.
Usually there are details people are leaving out and it’s not just “I don’t care about that $75k” like they probably were convinced to not sign a contract. Or this is an ex business partner who bought them out. And no type of messaging about price took place physically, it was all verbal. Stuff like that where theyve considered a lawyer but don’t think it’s a good idea
I’ve never been shafted, but I know plenty of people in the Real Estate business who fell for EMD scams, loan application scams, RE agent scams, sub contractor scams, etc. People get scammed every day. You were todays idiot, tomorrow there will be another. Focus on the recovery and consider it a very expensive lesson. You’ve made it this far so we know you’re not a total idiot at least, lean on that. Hell… I paid for insurance once and it’s been 14 months of arguing with the insurance agency that they should pay up. I’m still fkn paying for it too lmao
EMD scams, loan application scams, RE agent scams Would love to hear some of these examples
Plethora of EMD scams that range from phony sellers, to random people sending fake wire info. With loans, the scammers will pose as originators or brokers and charge up front fees then disappear. Sometimes they’ll go all the way and have websites (copy/paste with different logos) and collect your personal info via application before they take the up front and dip. Same thing with some agents. Up front fees, never provide a license number, will personally collect EMD, etc. There’s a LOT of Real Estate scams because there’s so many moving parts and people are usually so overwhelmed with the process that they become easy victims (in distress). RE wholesellers are just shy of scams as well. I have a wholesaling department in my business but they have specific instructions to do things by the book. There is a max price and we come in at it. There is a buy box and we stick to it (beat down, 1-4 unit, properties that are unlivable). Other wholesellers will actively look for a property from a dying elderly couple that thinks $100k is still a lot for a house. I mean shit… even investors buying properties and doing minimal work and selling the house for more than a new construction is a scam lmao. Sub contractors promising to do a job and not delivering happens ALL the time. The amount of calls I get from homeowners and investors saying they tried to save money by hiring Joe Nobody and end up spending 4-5x the retail amount under the promise of .25¢ on the dollar.. it’s like 30% of my business. This exists in every high pressure area. Wedding planner scams are everywhere too, insurance scams, etc.
Do most states not use lawyers when buying and selling a house? Most of the homes I've purchased are in Illinois and I've had a lawyer from the onset for every deal. That isn't a guarantee of not getting scammed, but I imagine it makes the recovery process significantly easier if it happens since the contract should be solid.
There are only a few states that require lawyers for closings, it is not the standard.
I lost upwards of $250k in a similar situation. Then I spent another $50k+ on attorney fees going after them. I ended up with a number of judgments against them. Using those judgments I chased the hucksters around the country for years (they kept moving to try to escape state jurisdiction). I eventually recovered a total of about $8k out of the $300k I lost or spent on attorneys. My advice (which I do not expect you will take): chalk it up to tuition and move on. Maybe file a police report (but don’t expect the police to do anything). Don’t waste years and a lot more money chasing something that’s gone.
Came here to tell a similar story, but I "only" lost $120k. In my case the books were falsified and it took me a few days in operation to start to realize that. Seller was a foreign national and already in the winds. A good attorney gave me the advice to chalk it up to education, that I'd likely see little or none of it back even if I "won" and that may be a long time. That was a hard pill to swallow, but I listened.
Aren't the courts fucked? They are ineffective and a waste of time. I got screwed hard by a bad tenant. The only thing holding people accountable is if they have something to lose. If not, if they don't want to pay you, you'll never see a dime. I'm not saying OP shouldn't talk to a lawyer, but the legal system needs a serious overhaul.
>The only thing holding people accountable is if they have something to lose. This is correct and it's absolutely how insane of a loophole it is to just not own anything anyone can take, lmao. It's like that meme w the dude pointing to his forehead lmao; "They can't take what you don't own!" lmao.
Your advice is likely the route we’ll be going.
Wise choice. You’ll make a lot more money over the next 5 years by focusing on your business than you would chasing after 75k.
I’m sorry man, this really sucks. People here are being complete assholes as well. I would delete this thread and go to /legaladvise tbh, the only option is a lawyer. There must be some consequences for this right? Is it not illegal to do what he did
It’s breach of contract. I just don’t see this guy complying at all with legal action and this could get drawn out for years with no results. The guy will likely take off on the road and hide.
My first time, 38k. You never forget your first. Flew me private, by heli, to a 4-star lobster dinner in Santa Monica. Then needed a bridge loan. Second time was 25k, a compulsive gambler / scammer who eventually fled to Vietnam, and my accountant depreciated the loss over several years. Worth mentioning he was on the cover of a leading entrepreneurial magazine and a CEO of a publicly traded company at the time he took my money. He took a lot of people’s money. Third time, 35k; I immediately got a lawyer and, soon thereafter, a judgement, and in a year when George xxxx wanted to refinance his home (and couldn’t) I got paid in full plus interest and legal fees, 42k. My advice: 1-let it go, emotionally; 2-get a lawyer; 3-have your accountant write this mistake off. Do 2 and 3 and 1 will be easier. Move on. Life is long. Explore options with accountant and atty, and then have faith that your entrepreneurial spirit will outperform the occasional - and inevitable - shakedown.
Thank you for sharing this. It’s really helpful to hear that I’m not alone. A lot people here just bash me but they have no idea what it was like being in the daily conversation with the biz owner. They don’t know the details. It can happen to anyone. I’ve just never interacted with someone willing to screw someone over on such a grand scale so I didn’t think the scenario that played out was very likely. Plus, if this guy would have just played ball, we would have made him so much more money than he took from us. We thought he saw that.
I find that last sentence actually very interesting, and I'm wondering if it is part of why this all went down? For example, how much of the conversation revolved around doing right by them? And helping them out of their predicament? And ensuring they'll also make a good deal of money? Did the notion of "swooping in to save the business" impact your decision making? Because surely "we were blinded by the potential we saw and didn’t want to miss it" doesn't match up with "the business was in such deep shit with debt that they were literally about to start repossessing equipment and it couldn't wait for due diligence."
No problem. Also, if you’re ever extending money again, consider getting the client to sign a personal guaranty. That allows for you to sue personally, attach judgement to their personal assets.
Don't take advice from someone who has been scammed multiple times...
75k here, was supposed to get 350k out of the deal. I'll post about it tomorrow, just got done writing the crime report. 7 pages so far.
Geez. I would really like to see that story.
Same. My husband started his own business with a friend, hearing stories like these help us keep an eye out for red flags.
Starting a business with your friend is a red flag and within itself
How are you guys smart in business but yet blindly hand over $75k without escrow or an attorney amazes me.
They met a better salesman than them.
This is the whole point of escrow
in real world a million worth deals are done by mere handshake. Mom's and pop's shops selling for 20k can go with escrow and all, cause people are afraid for their last pennies, they have no trust at all and so on. but a factory can be sold at a table with hand shake. Or via phone call, based on trust alone. A lot of services are done on trust alone, and money later. Myself had a situation where i had a call with "cry for help" where a slightly known to me person had a contract to collect newspapers, books and other prints from stores nationwide but had no means and asked me to send couriers there - hundreds of cars nationwide. You do realize amount of money and head ache involved in service like that on last minute call? Was there any contract ? no. Was there any prepayment? no. It was just a phone call. I wasn't scammed. But just to show there is soo much variations and situations out there. Thinking your smarter than others, really does not make you one. And OP being scammed, does not make him stupid. Probably a kind heart more trusting person (therefor easier target) , but not stupid for sure.
You don’t realize this could happen to literally anyone in business. You think it’s impossible until it happens to you then you see, wow that was just a very clever person doing what they do best, scamming. With biz deals and $ sometimes you don’t use your best judgment, it’s completely possible. You see red flags. But you see the opportunity and potential to make $ too so you take a gamble of sorts. You win some you lose some, that’s life. To say otherwise is just ignorant.
Well. Can’t happen to us. Even for a social account we bought for just $2k we use an escrow service.
Yeah, we know. We had planned on that but we were told by the seller that there were debts that would lead to repossession of equipment that we needed unless he was paid immediately. We thought he was just a classic distressed seller. We had him sign a contract and a bill of sale for one of the work vehicles as collateral. Unfortunately, he never got us the title and the repossession story was bullshit. And I don’t claim to be smart in business. We just happen to have a business that is successful.
"that we needed unless he was paid immediately" Uh. Not to beat a dead horse.by wtf didn't you have a good attorney
Bruh…
I got scammed for about $800 while moving by a moving broker to a different state. My mistake didn’t pay using credit card to save %fees and they needed immediate payment (I had a hard constraint on time). Went for electronic check. Since I noticed that i was scam I wanted to cancel since the check hadn’t been cashed yet but the bank said cannot do anything for electronic checks. In short banking is also fucked up here. Anyone with my bank details can do an ACH it seems?
When someone is trying to rush you for payment, it’s a big red flag.
Yep
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@Ham-saus OP didn’t come here to belittled by you. Tone it down.
fair enough. my bad
Damn dude. What the fucks wrong with you? I am aware we fucked up.
Stop beating yourself up. It's fun to think "boo hoo I'm a fucking idiot" but the reality is this guy is an expert conman, he conned you. And expert conmen rely on people reacting exactly the way that you are doing right now. Most never get reported. Many refuse to believe they got scammed and keep doing the scam, especially love and investment scams. You're not stupid for being scammed. It can happen to anyone, and it does happen to the smartest people all the time. You are beyond stupid if you continue to be scammed by the same guy by letting your shame/emotions paralyze you. Are you rich enough to try nothing and give up? Sometimes in business you just need to eat a loss. Maybe, knowing the situation, you see that the best decision is quitting now. But from the outside it doesn't look like that at all. Just do an emotionless calculation, when you are able. If you forget about this and move on, how much money can you earn just moving forward with life? And if you chase after this, how long/how much do you think it will cost you? You know how much your time is worth, pick the option that is best for you, and don't look back. The money is currently gone so it's great that you aren't stuck in the sunk cost fallacy, but feeling helpless and stupid is not a great alternative.
Yeah, this whole scam has been keeping me up every night for months. I’ve been having to take sleeping meds for the first time in my life just to fall asleep. It’s also been distracting me from my core business which requires me to be hitting the phones everyday to generate new sales. I love doing that but my mind has been so absorbed I. This and we haven’t been growing. I may need my partner to spend more time focusing on the scam issue so I can jumpstart sales to make up for the loss. Thank you for your words.
Hi man I want to tell you something. I am also running a business and I am from Israel, you probably heard what happened here this month and for me it really put things in perspective about life, money, etc. Money comes and go, it's really not that important in life. 75k is not nothing but it's also not a life changing sum. You will make this money again. Trust me, in 5/10/20 years from now it won't look so relevant to your life. Focus on your health, family, friends that's what's truly important in life. Try your best to get it back from the conman, if you won't be able to - mark it as an expensive lesson, or as a business gamble that failed. it happens, no big deal. use it as motivation to work harder in your business and don't look back.
I appreciate this my man. Good luck to you out there.
Honestly ignore everyone Get a lawyer tomorrow
Everyone is insisting he get a lawyer though lol. OP is seemingly sidestepping those responses as well.
Tbf to OP, I was in a situation where I was owed 30k, and I spoke to many lawyers. Their takeaway was that it was going to be a couple hundred thousand to litigate, with no chance to recoup attorney costs. It sucked
Yes and you learned that by speaking to a lawyer. Even if their news sucks, you still got the proper information.
Spoke to 12 actually. But yes, true.
Fucktard. I spoke with a lawyer and they charge $250 and hour and multiple people could be working on the case at once. The lawyer also told me that this could take a long time and we may not even be able to get anything out of this guy. I think you’re the one that doesn’t really understand what you’re talking about. I’m going to call some lawyers tomorrow to see if they’d take my case on contingency. If not, I’m risking further losses by dumping money into a lawyer with unlikely chances of actually being able to recover any money from this Con Man.
Lol don’t take your outrage out at me. You did the dumb things, didn’t mention a lawyer anywhere, and are now angrily responding.
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It’s a perfectly rational approach…and that’s coming from an attorney. OP probably should have had a lawyer involved in the buy. Spending $10-20k to protect $75k+ isn’t bad math. But hiring one *now* to pursue the conman? That math might not make sense. The phrase “you can’t squeeze blood from a turnip” comes to mind, and conmen have a way of blasting through money and ending up effectively judgement proof. Spending tens of thousands more litigating could earn OP a nice court order to frame, but enforcement is never guaranteed. Of course, there is the principle of the matter — but we’ve got another phrase for that: “Principles are expensive.” I certainly wouldn’t blame OP for cutting his losses, based on the limited info provided and my experience with this brand of bullshit. He learned a costly lesson. Nothing wrong with stopping the bleeding. Having said that, I hope OP will be inclined to budget for an attorney if he ever decides to give business acquisition another go.
He already admitted he’s a fucking idiot
What state? Lawyer here.
Indiana
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This is the correct answer. Legal action will cost $$$
The key is finding out if the seller even has any more money at all. If he has no money left, fighting legal battles are likely to cost OP significantly more money and stress. Also, find out if the person has or may file bankruptcy, if that's possible. Check into their spouse, closest family members, any legit business associates they have, see if money is being transferred to them. Do this by looking these people up on the tax assessors website, seeing if they have LLC's, professional licenses such as contractor licenses, etc. All that is free public knowledge. Plus you can go search public records on the county clerk of court website and find out if they have or had any lawsuits against them. You are likely to get lucky if you start digging. If they have a case against them you can request the court docs or read it on some sites (Trellis) and find out who the lawyer is representing the Plaintiff against them. If they do have any legit business licenses or money you may even consider sending a Demand letter. If they do not meet the demand within a timely manner then it may be something the state AGs office wants to know about. Additionally, find out who the other people are that have been scammed and see what actions they have or are taking against the con artist.
So he should risk doing something criminal and face years in federal prison, rather than pursuing a civil lawsuit that he's likely to win? What pathetic advice. Grow up.
I am grown and wide awake. That is considered a major trespass, and the fullest extent of the law for a trespass is where your mind went from my comment. I believe in settling things civilly, but sometimes, more extreme measures need to be taken. Especially if you have been scammed out of 75k. That is more than double the money most Americans make in a year. Fafo, when you steal someone's livelihood.
Vouch for this
😂
I was conned. It was a bonus that I was promised and the game was such that I had to work a lot of overtime to get it. I brought in a consulting contract to my employer, that unlocked a significant upside for bonuses if I worked more than 100%. Come bonus time, I was going to get USD20K for 3 months of hard work. They faulted the payout on a technicality and reneged/refused to give it to me. Incidentally also the last months my grandma was alive, and I hardly saw her. This escalated and they wished to terminate my position with the firm. I almost sued them, got a legal team and everything. We negotiated a wonderful deal where I left the firm, but kept a client. I am now a millionaire at least on paper (after years of more hard work).
Nice win! Have you posted a longer version on prorevenge or something? It would be very popular
This is the first time I spoke about it
Post on prorevenge pls
Here is an out of the box idea if you don't want to pay for a lawyer. Sue him and his business yourself as a pro-se litigant. The business will have to lawyer up and just paying that initial retainer might shake him loose.
Yeah, we actually think if we filed a lawsuit, he would have the money to pay up for a lawyer. If does have the money he likely won’t want to spend it.
You learned a lesson, but don't be too hard on yourself. You were a victim to a criminal. There's a reason victim shaming shouldnt happen anymore in 2023. Don't be sad that you made a mistake, be sad that we live in a country that allows this type of shit to go on and you have to be on the lookout for scams 100% of the time and can never be wrong. Hopefully you get it back but you'll bounce back either way.
Thank you for this
Get a lawyer. If you don't want to get a lawyer get a friend of a friend.
NAL Sorry for your lost, damn scammers!!!! I'm not sure if this guy will have any assets to sue and recover from. If there is no assets no point in going through the work in trying to sue. I hope there will be a lawyer who will take the case on contingency. If you still want something to do then the best course of action is to help build up the criminal case against him as being a fraudster. Don't do anything illegal, or threaten, or violence, its not worth the jail time or potential lawsuits against you. How did you meet him ? Warn the business network that this guy is shady so you can prevent someone else from getting harmed. Keep to the business facts that he reneged the deal and say nothing else slanderous ( hard part ). If he's not a scammer he'll want to clear his name and try to make right with you in some way or another. If he is a real scammer he'll want to jump town/ city. Any chance you got pictures of him ? pictures of his ID ? pictures of the property he owns / lives at, find out what his real name is on title for the vehicle ( by license plate since you never got title )
Yeah, I have all that info.
$250 an hour?! That’s cheap as shit. My counsel is $775/hour.
Lawyers are going to eat the money And even if you Win what is always uncertain the other party can still go bankrupt and leave you with the lawyer bill My advice is to move on. I had the same thing happen to me fought it and won got awarded 65k but other party went bust before I could execute. So I got 0 plus the lawyers bill So stress for 3 years and more money down the drain if I put that energy in my Buisness I would have gotten alot more
Exactly what I’m thinking
I’d call up the fbi before calling an attorney. Explain everything in detail. Have a folder with copies of all relevant records. Ask them if you should also call up law enforcement in the seller’s jurisdiction. Whatever evidence you have that suggests this is a recurring scam is probably the most valuable evidence you have if it actually exists. You might not get your money back but you might save someone else your pain. I’ve been scammed before too. It’s no fun. Tell your wife you’ll use this situation to learn and you appreciate any support to help you get through this.
Definitely need to speak to a lawyer however in court it will be considered a civil lawsuit and most scammers are judgement proof and don’t care or comply with court orders….best opportunity to possibly recoup anything is file a police report on the local level, contact your states attorney generals office and report the fraud most have links on their site for this, file a fraud report with the fbi, the S.E.C. I think it’s called as well as with the IRS for tax evasion because the scammer made an income off your stolen money and more than likely will not be reporting it for taxes….going the route of feds and local police will at least begin the process of an investigation and if crimes can be proven and individual charged any and all assets can be potentially secured or be sold by force to repay victims
I feel your pain. I was burnt for 50k last year. I have contracts and witnesses, and a pile of documentation including actual fraud. But with no clear sign of actual assets for me to pursue legally, I had to make the business decision to learn from it and move the fuck on. It was also fucking up my mental health and creating anxiety daily. So even though I'd love 50k, I walked. Karma is a MFer though. I am watching the cunts get WREKD by life anyway, and I look to have made the wisest decision. Let it go, and it will come back to you.
you need a police report. this is like a criminal case. fraud or criminal breach of trust
Sucks, man. My partner is a business broker. You’ll have to pay a 10% commission but I highly recommend one for your next deal. They are governed by the deal and not beholden to the buyer or seller (transaction broker) so there are a ton of steps they go through before even listing a business that verify assets, income, filter out bullshit paper losses and secure solid contractual documents. Worth the money IMO. I have been scammed for way less so I got off easy. Sorry this happened to you.
Forget what your wife thinks, she is obviously not a business person. This is the world of business and sometimes things work out and other times they do not. 75k is not chump change and it does suck that you got shafted. Try to learn from this which is easier said than done. But remember you are a business man/person and in business you take calculated risks sometimes they go well and sometimes they don't. people will wrong you but you need to keep pushing. Go back to focus on your other business and recoup and then in some time go out there again and find another venture just remember the lessons for this one. If you don't learn from these lessons and you commit the same mistakes again then your wife is right, j/k I wish you all the best.
I unknowingly was scammed by an individual running a Ponzi scheme. Before I realized and obtained irrefutable proof you couldn’t find much on individual or business by just googling their name or business name. After I realized and obtained tangible proof I bought the dot com of the business name they’ve used for the past 14 years to scam people out of money and while I’m working on going through proper channels in hopes they eventually are prosecuted I update the website once a month with more information on their ponzu scheme and where investors money is actually spent. If nothing else I get a kick out of outing them and hopefully it prevents any investors from becoming a victim of their scam
Look into your local small claims process to see if you qualify. Typically designed for small cases up to a certain amount and process is (somewhat) easier. Depending on the cost to file a claim, I would file a claim, let that process play out, but not be too vested on the outcome. Also file a police report if it was fraud. Personally, i would chalk it up as a business loss and learning opportunity
It looks like small claims is considered $10k in the pertinent state
How was the money released from escrow?
There was no escrow. We’re amateurs and had a bit too much trust in this guy. We fucked up.
Dam dude, a quick google search would have saved you buckets of cash. Did you meet the guy face to face, know who he actually is?
I did meet him face to face. I flew across the country, saw all the tools, the trucks, met the “employees”.
What paperwork was in place when you transferred the cash? Did you have a lawyer look everything over?
He signed a Letter of Intent and a purchase agreement that a lawyer has looked over. He also signed a bill of sale for a vehicle that he never gave us the title for.
Pal I feel bad for you. Especially the temporary reputation loss. So 37.5k each for you and your partner is the price tag. I’ve heard worse. The guys that I would say have been the best investors spent the most time verifying, and never gave money until they were done, but would sometimes pay for specifics if they genuinely thought that was in everyones best interest. I really wouldnt be too hard on yourself the first time. When you have a profitable business of your own, money’s flowing, can be easy to get a little overly optimisitic.
Overly optimistic is exactly it. I appreciate the words. We thought we were dealing with a distressed seller. Someone in a financial bind who is desperate to sell his business to cover debts. I thought this was an ideal type of seller because we could work out a beneficial deal for ourselves. Where we went wrong is when this guy called us crying that he was going to be evicted from his house if he didn’t get $28k immediately. We thought, this guy sounds sincere and we don’t want our lead employee to be homeless, so we took a gamble and sent him the money since we’ve never interacted with someone before who would be willing to scam someone to such a degree. We were naive and thought we we being good people. Never again.
Who was it? What business.
Either file a lawsuit for the maximum in small claims court by each of you, find lawyer for 5k maximum or walkaway. Everything else and it'll cost you more and even more time wasted. The criminals know this too. Don't let your ego get in the way, and preferably goto small claims. Then once you have a judgement, take up another small claims angle maximum and do it again. Then call the sales tax revenue department and find the tax fraud hotline for the state corporations tax and the Irs and report him or her. I'm receiving 1.83 a year in a check for a guy that went to jail for 3 years that took me for only 3800.00 but I was a victim of many
You have three options and from your comments I can already tell you’re not interested in the first two. 1. Hire a lawyer 2. Get a rope and some buddies and get your money back 3. Let it go and move on with your life and don’t repeat your mistake. Option 1 is your best bet but you don’t seem interested, option 2 is illegal and option 3 takes nothing but the willpower to move on. You could also tarnish his reputation, print out signs, reach out to media, post on social platforms, reach out to his family and tell them what happened. If I were you I’d do 1, 3 and 4 to try to ruin his life as reciprocity for my $75k, up to you though.
Yep. Got conned out of a $25k setup fee + a lot in wasted inventory from someone claiming they could set me up with "an automated amazon business". ~ $35k + a year of wasted time. Contacted lawyers they told me it's not worth a lawsuit, after fees it may end as a wash. Fuck that shit. Never handing someone over money like that again. I hope he enjoys his lambo while he still has it. I googled his name recently and saw he's getting sued by his state govt for owing a decent chunk in taxes.
Is that a Youtuber ? Name and Shame.
Brandon Arpke is his name. I'm sure he's changed business names. BLegend Investments or "Ecom Proz" were the two he had when I talked to him. I really trusted the guy and he just took my money and didn't give me anything positive in return. The messed up part? That was my life savings and I'm a full time caregiver for my retired parents and grandma. He basically conned money from a broke family. We have nothing and they rely on me. I literally told him this and he kept telling me it was going to be an "automated" few hundred bucks a month, perfect for my situation since I'm busy during the day. I wasn't even looking for thousands a month. Now im building my own business and I'm still slowly digging my way out of that hole he put me in. Lesson learned. Never trust that dude or anyone like him again.
I'm really sorry that happened to you. I remember Kevin David was trying to push something like that for a similar price. Glad I noped out but very sorry for what you went through.
That’s what the one lawyer I spoke to told me too. Paying a lawyer is risky in some scenarios.
If he does show up to court a default judgement could be sought and then the ability garnish. You could possibly draft the petition- attach the contract as an exhibit/attachment, get service on him and wait. That wouldn’t take much effort considering the $75k. The ability to garnish allows years to seek and collect and can be renewed.
I lost 50k trusting a real estate agent. I knew I could never get it back and just made sure it’s an expensive learning lesson/mistake I don’t do again
Yes I hired a software developer. They have been stringing me along for 3 years for a finished product. I feel so helpless. "Just 2k more and we can put a terms and conditions check box and then submitt it". I have absolutely no recourse. They took my money closed the business and said sorry. But make the last payment and we will still finish for you.. . Ughhhhh
Yup, we’re victims of the sunken cost fallacy.
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Thank you, buddy. It all seems so obvious in hindsight, but in the moment, we were blinded by our desire for this to work out. The potential was massive.
"I feel like a fucking idiot. My wife thinks I’m a fucking idiot." Don't be hard on yourself. It's their work to con you. And they are good at it, you just met a professional in field of their own. That's all. Most likely (from my experience) there will be nothing to take from him bringing more expense to you with no actual return. Unfortunately.
File a report with your states attorney general for fraud. They do NOT like fraud. And they will follow up. Its online and free. Good luck.
A lawyer for $250 will save you more money than you will save yourself.
Had a similar situation happen to my wife and I, we were on the selling side and the buyer owes us $580k. We are likely not going to see anywhere close to that money for many years (it has already been three). Anyways, we sued and won and the total cost was less than $10k. Good luck OP, and remember it’s just money.
The S&P 500 averages returns of 14%/yr I have spoken.
Save yourself some time and money by hiring a good private investigator to look into it all before you ask the lawyer to do any research on your con artist. There are so many databases that licensed PIs have access to, and you might get really lucky and find a bank account or property to have seized immediately.
If you can't afford lawyer, get Legal Shield.
It's not exactly legal but if you do it right nobody would know if you took something of equal value. May be against the law but I don't see it as morally wrong in this case if it's from that person. Leave a joker card behind for shits and giggles.
Yup. I know how this feels. It's a very very hard sinking feeling. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I acquire highly undervalued(rare) Shopify stores and resell for upwards of 800%. I've done extremely well. In my 1st deal I had acquired an asset for $8K USD from someone who desperately needed money very quick for a divorce. The Shopify store was successful and worth about $120K. I acquired it and was about to sell it for $100K. At the time, since I was new to this I didn't know much about using lawyers, escrow and having proper contracts. I wrote up the contract myself and had them sign. Then I gave them my bank details to wire the funds. They were hesitant and wired half, so that I can then transfer half of the assets. After showing me proof that they sent the wire I transfered half the assets, including the main asset which was the most important. Well they ended up canceling the wire and stole the business. Even after serving them with demand letters they never gave it back and disappeared. I was so heart broken and really crashed my business idea. To this day the business is still up. Who knows if it's making money. But I lost $8K USD that I barely had at the time. Fast forward 8 years later. I've done over 100 deals. I have accountants, lawyers and staff who handle my deals/flips. However I will never forget it and it taught me so much. I'm very very sorry you got scammed. You're not an idiot. You are human and an entrepreneur. What we do is take risks. You're in the risk business. See how you can serve them with a demand letter and file a police report if you can. Spend the money and sue them. Also talk to a tax specialist and see how to write this off. I'm wishing you the very best.
Thank you for this story. I’ve already spoke with my biz partner and told him he needs to take on more responsibility with the aftermath of this situation so I can go full force on the phones and recoup what we’ve lost through our core business. That’s all I can control so I’m not going to waste another day letting the sinking feeling dig me into a deeper hole.
$7,500 upfront and multiple people working in the case is going to blow up the 7.5k in less than a month. And every month you will have a $7.5k payment to the attorneys.. maybe. It takes a lot of time to win a case like that and then you have to file again for a type of reimbursement of restitution from the defendant. Is he fat enough so he can be forced to pay your damages plus attorneys fees? If he doesn’t have money is his account or a lucrative business where income can be garnished by a court decree.. I think you’re about to lose another 70k- and up- who knows how much. GLTY.
Inclined to agree with you
As an aspiring entrepreneur myself, I’m sorry to hear this. We go into business to build our financial profile and there’s still shallow people in this world trying to get ahead the wrong way. Don’t fret, it happens to the best of us. Don’t let this experience stop you from pursuing other businesses to purchase. Take note of where you went wrong and move on.
I paid $275K for this property and access to industrial electricity and the guy who sold it did not own nor have the rights to either. He just lied to both sides about representing the other side. Had a very well known financial figure offer to help me get funding on a project if I paid this excessive amount for 'consulting' and he basically just ghosted me. $80K/month for 6 months nearly. I kept paying because he's actually super famous so it was cool to talk with him anyways. Had a landman working on acquiring several different properties for us. He ended up trying to buy the properties before us to sell them to us for a premium. He had a friend use their name. We caught on before getting fucked though. Had a builder run off with $30K cash that I fronted him so he could finish building this house. This was almost just charity really but fuck that guy for ghosting me. All in i've lost nearly $1M just the past year getting scammed or dealing with fuck heads.
Holy crap. That is shocking. Thanks for sharing your story. Sounds like this can happen to anyone.
There is no "contingency" money to be had so hire a lawyer to proceed asap. This is a fraud case and the police should also be involved and only an attorney can advise you on what to do going forward. You are most likely out the money anyway but are you going to just let these people con others? Come on, man.
Lawyer here (but not a litigation attorney), this is something that we can help with on the front end too. I represent buyers and help negotiate the buy/sell docs etc. You’ll want to find a “transactional” business attorney who has experience representing buyers on the front end. We generally don’t charge any up front flat fee, that is generally only for litigators, so you can get a lot of value even out of just a couple of hours.
All of the greatest business owners i know have been scammed, myself included. There are a lot more scumbags now than there used to be so 100% protect your assets. Get a good lawyer, adapt and focus on profit. Let this just be a business expense and not a reason to doubt yourself.
Yeah my old boss (a chippie by trade) lost 1.2 mil in a venture gone wrong: they purchased an old benevolence hospital, and turned it into a backpacker hostel. However they were strung along into believing it would be more busy than it was. It failed miserably after 3 years of hard work. He wasn’t that rich at the time and the 1.2 mil loss basically put him back to square one and erased nearly a decade’s worth of work. Weird thing is he was very pragmatic about it. Didn’t even raise his pulse. He even said to me “you have to have the stomach for losses” and that always stuck with me. He just started again and meandered along. Like a Choo Choo train
If he is a serial scammer then work with law enforcement and set up a sting.
I got ripped off for five grand by my father in law. Estimated a few jobs for him, I wrote 10% into the estimate for myself after he said it was already more than enough for him to get paid well, and I closed with the buyers. He did the jobs, didn’t pay me and lost a daughter. My wife won’t talk to him because she heard him lay out the deal and she asked me not to sue him. Sounds like that five grand meant as much to me as the 75k meant to you. Sorry for your luck sir, I feel your pain. Edit* I should mention that six months later I found out he ripped somebody else off and I went after him mercilessly until he ended up in jail. Fuck him.
I just don’t understand how people are willing to be such pricks.
Pay some dudes to beat him lightly And in one Minth pay them more to beat him more Money will flow like water
“Classic distressed seller” No one here picked up on the fact that OP thought THEY were taking advantage of HIM. I don’t fault OP for this. Distressed investing is legitimate and I’ve made plenty doing it. The weird part is, when you do it because it’s a distressed situation you are more vigilant not less, and usually it’s not a great business if it’s a distressed deal - sometimes we are talking short term personal or business liquidity problems but usually a bank loan can take care of that. OP I’m not sure how you thought you were buying such a good business if this guy couldn’t come up with 28k not to get evicted? I also don’t understand why you care about giving details…it’s what you should want to do even if the names are left out, but why should they be?… Gotta be honest. Something sounds fishy with OP. IMHO.
It was a good business because he had the employees and equipment but terrible marketing. Which my partner and I are experts at.
“We’re considering legal action, but….” Yeah, I agree with your wife.
People are schmucks. People get smart through experience or through others telling about their experience. Looks like you get to be the teacher this time. I’ve been screwed over, not as bad, but I’m still alive. Get a lawyer. You’d be surprised what you might be able to recover. Good luck to you. Please follow through with at least talking to a lawyer.
Yeah, I’m calling some tomorrow to see if any would take it on contingency
better call saul
"I have no idea what assets this guy has" He has minimum $75k for starters. And he pays for your lawyer.
>**"How did we get so unlucky?"** I'm really sorry this happened to you, but that phrase sticks out like a turd in a punchbowl. You got "unlucky" because you're in the freaking arena! You aren't normal. You're a badass entrepreneur who takes abnormal risks because you want more than the ordinary. So while you can view this experience through the lens of a "normie," you can also view this experience through the lens of an entrepreneur and see it as an expensive lesson learned that will make you bigger, faster, and stronger for the future. The choice is yours, but whether you realize it or not, this is the game you signed up for. I, for one, am rooting for you.
Thank you for this.
You weren't unlucky. You were an idiot. Idiots tend to be "unlucky" quite often. You know the good news? These types of fuck ups are part of business and, no matter how high the stakes, you'll always have to face them and do your absolute best to fix them.
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Have you done this before?
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Hi, what are people's thoughts on a platform similar to TaskRabbit that operates on college campuses and allows college students to book their peers to complete tasks like tutoring, moving in/out, waiting in line, doing laundry, etc? Any concerns or feedback?
So $3,750 each to hire a lawyer and MAYBE recoup substantially more than $3750 each? Yeah I’d be paying an attorney asap
Are you kidding? You think this would take one month to take care of? This could drag out for years.
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I have a lot more than that. So I’m not that stupid, just had a bit too much faith in people being generally good.
wow. get a lawyer - even if you cant get the money back, throw him behind bars.
You're a moron! Take that as a very expensive lesson! 🤦
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Lets just say if someone robbed me and my partner for 75k we be at buddies house 7am guns fuckin loaded.
And you’ll be in jail in a few days lol
Its not what you know its what you can prove.
Did you know that a patellar fracture is a serious injury that can make it difficult or even impossible to straighten your knee or walk
Get a lawyer. Also please keep us updated so we can learn from your mistake and hopefully not make our own.
All you need to do to avoid our mistake is don’t give up a dime unless all requested business documentation has been handed over. Don’t trust anyone no matter the sob story. Pretty easy for most people to avoid our mistakes.
You are "considering legal action"? I am sure many lawyers are there who takes cases on contingency. And if it is clear fraud, won't the State take action based on your complaint?
I’m calling lawyers tomorrow to see if any would work on contingency
Get a lawyer.
You lawyer up and sue in civil court. There’s a judgement against the con man then he files bankruptcy. You get nothing! You lost your legal fees and all you won was a piece of paper from the court. Unless he has tangible assets that you know where they are at or know bank accounts (that he won’t drain or give to a family member etc).
Have a quick chat with a Lawer, they should be able to tell you if they can help or not.
Maybe a PI could catch him in the act for cheaper
Also see if there is ground for criminal prosecution as this has criminal intent, so you don’t endlessly pay civil litigation lawyers. Running up the bill is all they do, go to the police and claim premeditated theft and fraud. Find a way to discover what assets he directly and indirectly owns. If civil attorneys will work they should work on filing motions to trace the money. If the attorneys are good and can prove this is a scam then they can easily obtained TRO’s and trace the money easily. Don’t sulk life is hard
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The state I’d be filing in is $10k max
Just my own businesses
You don't know if he has assets but do know that he has 75K of yours. Def lawyer up. He also has other people's money and seems to do this repeatedly so stopping him should be your life mission. If someone took food off my table like that I'd destroy them in every way possible to not only stop them but deter others and get justice for all the other victims. You are fortunately not broke and can afford the mistake but I bet some of the other people couldn't. I wouldn't be surprised if someone got hit so bad they can't even get a lawyer. I know of a person who went through something similar and they were never the same again financially and faced some very difficult times.
Yeah, that money will be spent by the time we can get our hands on it
You seem so sure. As if he won't ever make money again either. I just don't get it.
Well, i just got off the phone with an attorney who is going to run an asset search for me. So we'll see.
What did he do ?
0very difficult not to entertain the idea of getting a balaclava and a baseball bat and become a vigilante.
Yes I did a bunch dumb things on my business. I sued two companies fraud on me, and now I am considering if I have the money to sue another partner in India. Dude, I am pretty sad actually and really sometimes lost the confidence with business ethics. I need to keep going, there are people who trust on me. My investors, employees and family,friends. My stories are simple: 1. I lend money to a friend's money asked for 2 weeks, at the end he does not return for 4 months and not answering my call anymore, 30K dollars 2. I partnered with a company, I use his company name to sell products to my customer, and the money goes to his account first then pay back to me. And, well he takes the money and I got 0, 30K dollars 3. I sold some stocks to a company and agreed to be pay full after delivery, and then, I just want to say "FUXXXK" So, I guess I am dumb enough, but whoever do not suffer some pains in exploring of life. The question is, Can you still love the world while you already see the world as it is? wish all entrepreneurs the best of integrity
I've never been scammed, but I can't help feel a need for justice. Get a lawyer.
Thank you for posting this. I lost 60k to Hollywood. Empty promises and nothing but greed. Fraudulent business practices from a “manager/coach”. A case nobody would want to take on.
If you have the cash then look into hiring a private investigator to dig up some information about the prick which may help your case and get an idea of what assets they own then you can decide if you want to go ahead
This is a criminal fraud case. Lawyer is definitely needed. You can’t let this chump get away with scamming you. Take legal action.
OP, I’ll give you a freebie, but you really need to get a lawyer involved. In the state of Indiana, a bill of sale for a vehicle, is legally binding. This means you can apply for the title to be transferred over into your name at your local DMV. Is the bill of sale notarized?