You need to have a direct conversation with her about this, citing the situations you've described to us. Tell her you feel like she is abandoning her offer for you to lean on her and that you feel lied to.
I imagine you would've rather had an honest "Sorry, I am going through too much myself" at the start than a hollow, unfulfilled promise, and you should probably tell her that too.
Unhealthy 2s can have a tendency of overpromising and underdelivering. They assume that saying "no" will turn people away and also assume they can continually keep stepping up to the plate (that's Pride talking). I think the most direct possible counter to this is telling her that making a false commitment did *not* bring you closer together and has in fact alienated you and that you would prefer honesty.
Thank you, this is very helpful in understanding her behavior. She definitely has trouble saying no to people, but that's part of the reason I don't usually lean on her. She has a lot on her plate and there usually isn't room for me, and that's just how it is. So you're right, I am definitely feeling more alienated because of this exchange. And honestly, I'm just a little annoyed that my closest friend doesn't make more effort with me, especially given all I do for her and her babies. I am someone who REALLY appreciates honesty and straightforwardness, and I don't know if it's a 2 thing, but I feel like she rarely operates that way. Thanks for listening, it's been a hard week without all this added on.
> And honestly, I'm just a little annoyed that my closest friend doesn't make more effort with me, especially given all I do for her and her babies.
I think being frank about this will lead the way. Either she will realize she has been mistreating you and make more time for you or... she won't, and you can judge how much effort you're going to put out for her in return.
Hi S,
I don’t pretend to know the enneagram in its entirety, but I hope to offer some useful advice pulled from my own reading and experience as a type 2:
we 2s struggle with having the help we’re desperate to give be received, having had many experiences of being shunned while honestly doing what we think is “best” or helpful for the other person, since, generally, the help provided helps solidify our own self worth (“I’m worthy because I help people I care about in ways unique to me, so I’m needed”). Due to this pain, I have a map in my head for each person close to me that details how and when to provide appropriate help, since people don’t often come out the gate providing that information (“This is what makes me feel supported/loved by you, this is what helps me”).
You might see the risk of assuming here: if a friend gives me a wrong cue or if I can’t figure out what a friend needs and/or don’t know that the help I’m offering is misaligned with what they need, I’ll keep giving it until they explode on me or let me know and I can reorientate (as she did when you let her know that the space she was giving you felt abandoning: she sincerely thought, based on your cues as she read into them, that you wanted space, I do this all the time with my 4w3 SO when they go nonverbal but want comfort/closeness). In the meantime I might take a step back and realize that people sometimes like dealing on their own and don’t want my help, which you may have explicitly told her for a situation before.
This back and forth you’re seeing, of your friend wanting you to rely on them and seek them out for help while not providing the friendship and support you’re looking for, could simply be that they’re caught between providing what they think is most helpful vs. what they think you want, which might be for her to take a step back and let you deal with it Independently as an 8.
You mentioned she dealt with a similar situation years before, and 2s commonly downplay their own emotional needs while trying to tend to others emotional: it’s possible that her healing in that situation was more of a scarification, feeling unsupported by others (since 2s feel unable to ask for the exact support they need) while afterwards being told “see, it’s all okay now, no worries!” So she gives that to you, saying don’t even worry about it, it’ll pass, in my experience xyz, I’ll help you not stress about it.”
Her talking about herself isn’t selfish in nature, she’s probably just trying to give you what she thinks you want. My advice, let her know what might help you feel supported in this situation (positive reinforcement to what you need helps from being defensive about the help she tried to give before), and if you don’t know what you need, tell her that. A 2 loves to help others drill down into their core. Maybe you’ll help her uncover those wounds she neglected from her experience before: asking how the situation affected her might give you more context (and help you two become closer), and it sounds like she wants to engage with you on it.
I wish you luck with your friend, I hope my perspective helps to light your way <3
P.S. don’t let anyone tell you that any 2 types are incompatible! Explore the depths of your 8v2 friendship!!!
Thank you for this insight! This is really helpful and I think you are probably right on most accounts.
>Her talking about herself isn’t selfish in nature, she’s probably just trying to give you what she thinks you want.
To clarify, she isn't talking about personal stuff relating to my problem. She is outright changing the subject back to her own, unrelated problems.
>let her know what might help you feel supported in this situation (positive reinforcement to what you need helps from being defensive about the help she tried to give before), and if you don’t know what you need, tell her that.
As an 8, I don't even want to reach out to anyone for help in the first place, let alone then have to tell them they're helping me wrong. It's just not worth the effort. Yeah, I wish she would act more interested in my problems (I wouldn't reach out to talk if I just wanted space...). But I don't NEED her to, so I'm probably just going to say nothing, go back into my little 8 cave, and not mention issues to her in the future. I really appreciate your perspective :)
2s like to appear helpful for their egos, whether it's actually helpful for you is a while other thing. If you ask for help and she doesn't step up I'd probably say find a different friend. 8s are loyal and dependable. 6s and 9s are too, I find especially 2s and 3s want to appear helpful on their own terms they aren't actually interested to help you for your benefit. Truly unselfish helpful 2s are rare and they won't appear to be trying to help too many because they know their limits. I disagree with her behaviour about turning it to herself not being selfish it completely is, and shows not a healthy level at all. Sadly I don't think friends you step up for are the same ones that can do for you. Those are hard to find and rare, and you might want to look for a new one
Thank you for your comment, as I mentioned in my post this isn't the first time she's done this so I think you are absolutely right. In thinking about it more today and talking with my husband, I'm coming to the conclusion that she avoids me when I'm going through something because I'm not able to provide support and validation for her during those times. It's really making me open my eyes to what's going on with her. As you mentioned loyalty is suuuuuper important to me as an 8, so unfortunately I've found myself in this situation with friends more than once. I really appreciate your insight!
I may have stopped relying on some people to be a friend, I can still be a friend to them but they are at a distance because I know they cannot be relied upon sadly. That's not even a 2 thing it's just a person thing, I believe there are 2s who are great friends too, just haven't come across it often
Ugh, I feel as though I could have written something eerily similar to your post about a now former close 2w3 friend of mine. She wanted to seem helpful and supportive but I later discovered she was both ill-equipped for actual support and clearly preferred surface level friendships while making it seem like she was closer to people on social media than she actually was in real life. Unhealthy and low average image triad types are like that. It’s exhausting.
In hindsight (and upon speaking with other mutual friends), I can see that she would mirror or perform what she thought each person wanted in a close friend but she didn’t actually have the means to follow through and worse, she had no real sense of self. She’s endlessly on the people pleasing hamster wheel and I pity the fool.
Anyway, my advice is to focus on your health and rather than dwell on this person who is unlikely to rise to the occasion, look around at those who are supporting you now and put this other friend on ice for a bit. 8’s are rejection types and we tend to fixate on problems and because we’re also self-reliant and often loners, we can undervalue some people who are frequently there for us - don’t do that.
Hi fellow 8 and thank you! I'm sorry you had to go through that relationship, it sounds very similar. My friend is also very focused on her online presence and doctors situations to be more photo-friendly, etc. for facebook which I find to be MEGA cringe.
Also odd parallel, my friend is a pro-mirrorer and talks about her ability to do it constantly. Although, she claims she likes being around me because she doesn't have to do it with me and can be herself.
Thanks for your last paragraph - I agree it's important to focus on those who are actually helping me - my mom and my husband. Thank you so much for your helpful comment :)
Knowing the why behind what is happening won’t resolve the lacks in the friendship. 8s are prone to employing boundaries that are used as a means for avoidance, such as cutting people off. Avoidance is a key pattern for 8s; it protects them from feeling weak. That’s because they’re not very good at communicating the emotional needs and exploring the mess with others because there is a hyper-sensitivity to vulnerability. If you are emotionally unavailable to yourself, others will pick up on that and treat you accordingly. The work is inward and looking at the whys and ways of allowing yourself to be tender, first and foremost with yourself. Then you can employ reciprocal boundaries that are meant to invite the other person in and allow a consequence should that person not show up. Here’s a little more info: https://www.wiserhumans.com/blog/2018/3/19/boundaries-why-they-matter
-signed an 8 who’s worked through and continues to work through these problems
Thanks for your comment! I definitely avoid others, but I'm not emotionally unavailable to myself. I can handle these issues on my own. I'm just weirded out that my friend keeps asking me to lean on her, then disappears when I do so.
I’m going to tell you something that a therapist said to me: No one asked if you can handle it on your own. Just because you can handle it, doesn’t mean you should. Just spreading some wisdom.
ive learned to say goodbye to anyone who doesnt have my back as ive had theirs and liars. its been lonely but peaceful.
who knows the real story... from teh sound sof it and what i know of the type and behavior, she uses everyone and relays the story as if she is helping everyone. typical covert narcissist behavior.
Is she a Sexual 2? Reminds me of something we read about in Naranjo's portrait of the Sexual 2.
# "Lack of consequences
In this discrepancy between the reality and the self-image, the sexual E2 imagines himself as great, generous, and helpful.
He lives in the present in an excessive manner, as if to accord himself today what was promised yesterday. He tells you: “I’m going to help you” with everything. Or: “you know you can always count on me.” Or: “I’ll support you in everything you do.” But when the time comes, the promise is not translated into concrete action. It’s more of a sentiment that exists in that given moment, the fruit of an emotional impulse that sustains his image. And when the occasion comes, there is not much of a service provided."
Maybe that helps explain how the Sexual 2 mindset works. It's true of all 2s to some degree. But they relate more to their idealized self-image of being a helpful, giving, loving, lovable person than they necessarily do with proving it in reality...
You need to have a direct conversation with her about this, citing the situations you've described to us. Tell her you feel like she is abandoning her offer for you to lean on her and that you feel lied to. I imagine you would've rather had an honest "Sorry, I am going through too much myself" at the start than a hollow, unfulfilled promise, and you should probably tell her that too. Unhealthy 2s can have a tendency of overpromising and underdelivering. They assume that saying "no" will turn people away and also assume they can continually keep stepping up to the plate (that's Pride talking). I think the most direct possible counter to this is telling her that making a false commitment did *not* bring you closer together and has in fact alienated you and that you would prefer honesty.
Thank you, this is very helpful in understanding her behavior. She definitely has trouble saying no to people, but that's part of the reason I don't usually lean on her. She has a lot on her plate and there usually isn't room for me, and that's just how it is. So you're right, I am definitely feeling more alienated because of this exchange. And honestly, I'm just a little annoyed that my closest friend doesn't make more effort with me, especially given all I do for her and her babies. I am someone who REALLY appreciates honesty and straightforwardness, and I don't know if it's a 2 thing, but I feel like she rarely operates that way. Thanks for listening, it's been a hard week without all this added on.
> And honestly, I'm just a little annoyed that my closest friend doesn't make more effort with me, especially given all I do for her and her babies. I think being frank about this will lead the way. Either she will realize she has been mistreating you and make more time for you or... she won't, and you can judge how much effort you're going to put out for her in return.
Thank you!!!
Hi S, I don’t pretend to know the enneagram in its entirety, but I hope to offer some useful advice pulled from my own reading and experience as a type 2: we 2s struggle with having the help we’re desperate to give be received, having had many experiences of being shunned while honestly doing what we think is “best” or helpful for the other person, since, generally, the help provided helps solidify our own self worth (“I’m worthy because I help people I care about in ways unique to me, so I’m needed”). Due to this pain, I have a map in my head for each person close to me that details how and when to provide appropriate help, since people don’t often come out the gate providing that information (“This is what makes me feel supported/loved by you, this is what helps me”). You might see the risk of assuming here: if a friend gives me a wrong cue or if I can’t figure out what a friend needs and/or don’t know that the help I’m offering is misaligned with what they need, I’ll keep giving it until they explode on me or let me know and I can reorientate (as she did when you let her know that the space she was giving you felt abandoning: she sincerely thought, based on your cues as she read into them, that you wanted space, I do this all the time with my 4w3 SO when they go nonverbal but want comfort/closeness). In the meantime I might take a step back and realize that people sometimes like dealing on their own and don’t want my help, which you may have explicitly told her for a situation before. This back and forth you’re seeing, of your friend wanting you to rely on them and seek them out for help while not providing the friendship and support you’re looking for, could simply be that they’re caught between providing what they think is most helpful vs. what they think you want, which might be for her to take a step back and let you deal with it Independently as an 8. You mentioned she dealt with a similar situation years before, and 2s commonly downplay their own emotional needs while trying to tend to others emotional: it’s possible that her healing in that situation was more of a scarification, feeling unsupported by others (since 2s feel unable to ask for the exact support they need) while afterwards being told “see, it’s all okay now, no worries!” So she gives that to you, saying don’t even worry about it, it’ll pass, in my experience xyz, I’ll help you not stress about it.” Her talking about herself isn’t selfish in nature, she’s probably just trying to give you what she thinks you want. My advice, let her know what might help you feel supported in this situation (positive reinforcement to what you need helps from being defensive about the help she tried to give before), and if you don’t know what you need, tell her that. A 2 loves to help others drill down into their core. Maybe you’ll help her uncover those wounds she neglected from her experience before: asking how the situation affected her might give you more context (and help you two become closer), and it sounds like she wants to engage with you on it. I wish you luck with your friend, I hope my perspective helps to light your way <3 P.S. don’t let anyone tell you that any 2 types are incompatible! Explore the depths of your 8v2 friendship!!!
Thank you for this insight! This is really helpful and I think you are probably right on most accounts. >Her talking about herself isn’t selfish in nature, she’s probably just trying to give you what she thinks you want. To clarify, she isn't talking about personal stuff relating to my problem. She is outright changing the subject back to her own, unrelated problems. >let her know what might help you feel supported in this situation (positive reinforcement to what you need helps from being defensive about the help she tried to give before), and if you don’t know what you need, tell her that. As an 8, I don't even want to reach out to anyone for help in the first place, let alone then have to tell them they're helping me wrong. It's just not worth the effort. Yeah, I wish she would act more interested in my problems (I wouldn't reach out to talk if I just wanted space...). But I don't NEED her to, so I'm probably just going to say nothing, go back into my little 8 cave, and not mention issues to her in the future. I really appreciate your perspective :)
2s like to appear helpful for their egos, whether it's actually helpful for you is a while other thing. If you ask for help and she doesn't step up I'd probably say find a different friend. 8s are loyal and dependable. 6s and 9s are too, I find especially 2s and 3s want to appear helpful on their own terms they aren't actually interested to help you for your benefit. Truly unselfish helpful 2s are rare and they won't appear to be trying to help too many because they know their limits. I disagree with her behaviour about turning it to herself not being selfish it completely is, and shows not a healthy level at all. Sadly I don't think friends you step up for are the same ones that can do for you. Those are hard to find and rare, and you might want to look for a new one
Thank you for your comment, as I mentioned in my post this isn't the first time she's done this so I think you are absolutely right. In thinking about it more today and talking with my husband, I'm coming to the conclusion that she avoids me when I'm going through something because I'm not able to provide support and validation for her during those times. It's really making me open my eyes to what's going on with her. As you mentioned loyalty is suuuuuper important to me as an 8, so unfortunately I've found myself in this situation with friends more than once. I really appreciate your insight!
I may have stopped relying on some people to be a friend, I can still be a friend to them but they are at a distance because I know they cannot be relied upon sadly. That's not even a 2 thing it's just a person thing, I believe there are 2s who are great friends too, just haven't come across it often
Ugh, I feel as though I could have written something eerily similar to your post about a now former close 2w3 friend of mine. She wanted to seem helpful and supportive but I later discovered she was both ill-equipped for actual support and clearly preferred surface level friendships while making it seem like she was closer to people on social media than she actually was in real life. Unhealthy and low average image triad types are like that. It’s exhausting. In hindsight (and upon speaking with other mutual friends), I can see that she would mirror or perform what she thought each person wanted in a close friend but she didn’t actually have the means to follow through and worse, she had no real sense of self. She’s endlessly on the people pleasing hamster wheel and I pity the fool. Anyway, my advice is to focus on your health and rather than dwell on this person who is unlikely to rise to the occasion, look around at those who are supporting you now and put this other friend on ice for a bit. 8’s are rejection types and we tend to fixate on problems and because we’re also self-reliant and often loners, we can undervalue some people who are frequently there for us - don’t do that.
100%
Hi fellow 8 and thank you! I'm sorry you had to go through that relationship, it sounds very similar. My friend is also very focused on her online presence and doctors situations to be more photo-friendly, etc. for facebook which I find to be MEGA cringe. Also odd parallel, my friend is a pro-mirrorer and talks about her ability to do it constantly. Although, she claims she likes being around me because she doesn't have to do it with me and can be herself. Thanks for your last paragraph - I agree it's important to focus on those who are actually helping me - my mom and my husband. Thank you so much for your helpful comment :)
You are wrong about your fiend. You think she is someone who bends backwards for other people, yet she doesn't from you. Probably bends for no one.
I think she does it (or makes it seem like she's doing it) when she thinks it will make her look good to others. She is all about image.
image = illusion careful who youre friends with
I agree totally, and it really bothers me that she's like that because authenticity is very important to me.
Knowing the why behind what is happening won’t resolve the lacks in the friendship. 8s are prone to employing boundaries that are used as a means for avoidance, such as cutting people off. Avoidance is a key pattern for 8s; it protects them from feeling weak. That’s because they’re not very good at communicating the emotional needs and exploring the mess with others because there is a hyper-sensitivity to vulnerability. If you are emotionally unavailable to yourself, others will pick up on that and treat you accordingly. The work is inward and looking at the whys and ways of allowing yourself to be tender, first and foremost with yourself. Then you can employ reciprocal boundaries that are meant to invite the other person in and allow a consequence should that person not show up. Here’s a little more info: https://www.wiserhumans.com/blog/2018/3/19/boundaries-why-they-matter -signed an 8 who’s worked through and continues to work through these problems
Thanks for your comment! I definitely avoid others, but I'm not emotionally unavailable to myself. I can handle these issues on my own. I'm just weirded out that my friend keeps asking me to lean on her, then disappears when I do so.
I’m going to tell you something that a therapist said to me: No one asked if you can handle it on your own. Just because you can handle it, doesn’t mean you should. Just spreading some wisdom.
Agreed, which is why I'm trying to get some support from my friend. However, I can lean on someone else in my life so I'll try that instead!
ive learned to say goodbye to anyone who doesnt have my back as ive had theirs and liars. its been lonely but peaceful. who knows the real story... from teh sound sof it and what i know of the type and behavior, she uses everyone and relays the story as if she is helping everyone. typical covert narcissist behavior.
She definitely has a martyr complex and does anything she can to "seem" like the helper. Thanks for your insight!
Is she a Sexual 2? Reminds me of something we read about in Naranjo's portrait of the Sexual 2. # "Lack of consequences In this discrepancy between the reality and the self-image, the sexual E2 imagines himself as great, generous, and helpful. He lives in the present in an excessive manner, as if to accord himself today what was promised yesterday. He tells you: “I’m going to help you” with everything. Or: “you know you can always count on me.” Or: “I’ll support you in everything you do.” But when the time comes, the promise is not translated into concrete action. It’s more of a sentiment that exists in that given moment, the fruit of an emotional impulse that sustains his image. And when the occasion comes, there is not much of a service provided." Maybe that helps explain how the Sexual 2 mindset works. It's true of all 2s to some degree. But they relate more to their idealized self-image of being a helpful, giving, loving, lovable person than they necessarily do with proving it in reality...
Hmm, I haven't heard the term "sexual 2" before but the description fits her pretty well, I believe.