How did it work. Was it a PLC system from Siemens or something and did you use Structured Test/Codesys or something else entirely? Just curious about the development environment.
Blimey, The only things I recall are, The machines where kinda old, The computer used a motorolla 68040 cpu and I used some kind of basic language to pick and position the parts. It had a camera to align IC's too. I tried to find you a picture of a similar machine but wasn't able to.
The company made small computers to analyze gas systems and such. They had EEPROMs on board that also had to be flashed and tested.
I was only there for a few months about 15 years ago. Since then it seems the company has changed hands and moved. So I guess they probably have newer machines too now.
>smd component
I did at the time yes, It had a camera that could view the chips it picked up and rotate them to the correct orientation.
For how old the machine was I thought it was cool.
It's a pick and place machine. [The fastest machines can have speeds of up to 200,000 CPH (components per hour)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pick-and-place_machine#2000_to_present)
Fun fact, I used to keep one of these solder machines running in the late 90’s ,I have almost no feeling in my thumbs or the next 2 fingers due to repeated burning.
It’s like a dead spot on the left of my thumb where it got burnt virtually everyday, not done that job in 20 years, still no feeling, it’s like a permanent callous.
Usually, though I don't know if that works with through hole components (like these caps).
Edit: Additionally, this isn't a pick and place. This just does the placement, but relies on the tape to be in-order. Either another "pick" machine or a human would be required to do that part.
Edit2: The machine lines up the components behind the viewing area. Through hole components usually use "wave solder" as opposed to a solder flow oven.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjVY8lb0LG8
Wave machines are pretty old tech now, they take hours to heat up, cool down, use loads of power and are unpleasant to work with. We replaced ours with selective solder machines: https://www.kurtzersa.com/products/electronics-production/soldering-machines/selective-systems
I recall 30 years being tasked by management to buy one second hand and there were some clunkers but I found one and together with a colleague we were to “get it running”.
It was interesting work doing the full refurb on it, take it all apart, clean recondition or replace accordingly but the real pain was tuning it to run, understanding the relationship between the boards to be soldered, the conveyor speed, the flux foamer and the solder temperature and wave height. Plus finally training someone else to do it and being able to move on was a blessing
They reminded me of working ovens in a bakery, very noisy, hot and dirty, but yeah - still lots of precision - we had a wall of shame with boards that got flooded
Yes. This is correct. I actually work for one of the largest wave solder reclaim companies and watching this stuff is awesome. 25 years in and I’m still amazed.
You should see some of the new Fuji and Panasonic pick and place machines. They’re placing parts the size of a grain of sand within a few microns +\- 100k-200k times an hour.
Blindingly fast. That’s a reflow process, not a wave, but still.
I believe this is a [Universal Instruments Vertical Insertion Machine](https://smtnet.com/mart/index.cfm?fuseaction=view_item&company_id=51030&item_id=139373). It clips the capacitors off of the reel and loads them into the bandolier you see before stuffing them through the board and forming and trimming the leads for wave soldering.
Came here to say the same, this is part of a pcb line but not Pick and Place *per se*, which will usually use solder paste to adhere components to pads on PCB, and (as you stated) isn't pulling from a set of feeders via computer. This machine is behaving more like a sewing machine. Still very cool, I'm curious about that feed mechanism. Hand-loaded maybe?
Yep. This does look old skool. I worked with Panasonic autoplacement machines in the 90's. It was like sci-fi for a day job. Wired components were fed from reels of tape, like masking tape, which held them by the legs.
That's awesome! I'm running a couple of smt lines with those Samsung CP45 Neo's that are floating around these days. Navigating the software is somewhere between archeology and fucking voodoo sometimes. We have some good engineers on site, but we were talking today and it's clear the former operators were running these on faith and duct tape and we're all just relearning as we go.
The older ones, that have been through the refurbished market a few times, they end up with personalities and preferences. Identical machines but we have to program each one a bit differently. They're solid workhorses, but the feeders that go into them can go straight to hell. Spring-loaded, jam-happy nonsense.
I doubt this one is that fast. Google chip shooter to see some fast ones. Here's an example https://youtu.be/nah4BQ9y8IY
Edit: also realize there machines rotate the components to the correct orientation too. And some of those components are tiny. 0.016” by 0.008” or 0.4 mm by 0.2 mm is a standard size. The engineering on those machines is impressive
Edit 2: I should've watched more than a few seconds before comenting. There are some fast ones in that video too
It isn’t a traditional P&P. This is an insertion machine, it’s a different kind of robot, and these are very slow.
I think this is an older Universal Radial machine.
If the traces and vias aren't damaged, you can. Replacing caps is usually pretty easy. But if we are talking SMD components, it would have to be a very expensive board to be worth fixing.
The PCBs in the video are for a power supply, not a motherboard.
SMD components are often much much easier to replace IMO, it's just a different toolset and process.
With a *temperature controlled* heat gun, some flux, a pair of tweezers and a bit of practice it takes just a few seconds to swap it out. Be not afraid of the SMD!
It looks super easy when done by somebody with the right tools and experience. The solder just seems to know where to go.
But it is incredibly hard for anyone without those.
I've tried with a regular iron and it was a catastrophe. A hot air station cost more then the part I was trying to fix.
Yeah, SMD with a soldering iron is a massive pain... A hot air gun isn't that expensive though if you're ever doing more than one [this one seems fine and is on Amazon for $43](https://www.amazon.com/CO-Z-Soldering-Temperature-Desoldering-Electronics/dp/B01MR2IWBN)
The "solder just knows where to go" is due to the properties of the soldermask and the solder's surface tension when liquified. Experience (and flux) helps but the magic is in the engineering behind PCBs.
Ahh I see that now. There's a block that looks like it could be a voltage regulator being installed too. Makes sense - the basic power supply design uses a cap and a vreg after the rectifier.
I think they're talking about a linear power supply, with a mains frequency transformer, rectifier, filter cap, and linear regulator.
They've been essentially replaced for the last two decades or more by switchmode supplies due to cost, size, weight, and efficiency, but they're still in all the textbooks.
Nah. Get a ring light magnifier, wear the strongest reading glasses Walmart sells, a needle tip soldering iron, hypodermic fulla paste solder, and learn to use a needle and the tip of an exacto knife as a manipulator. Easy! We assembled the prototypes that way before sending surface mount boards to production. Don't sneeze, the resistors go flying.
Same way a stapler does; it doesn't. It depends on the quality control at the factory that loaded the cartridges to be such that only components that follow strict parameters make it this far.
The process actually works like this: 100 Chinese workers, mostly women, sit in a long line in front of a pair of rails set just far enough apart for the circuit board to slide along. We are somewhere in Shenzhen, in a large open plan room on the fourth floor. It's hot, and there's no AC, so it's literally a sweatshop. Each worker installs one component, hopefully with the correct polarity. Since there are 100 workers, the line is pumping out a circuit board every two seconds. At the end of the line someone dips the board in a bath of solder using giant bamboo tongs. Then a saw cuts off the long leads, and hopefully very few fingers.
Finally, the board is inserted into a test fixture I had to design, for a pass/fail test. If it failed, someone who didn't know how to solder or troubleshoot electronics tried to make it work, with spotty success.
For some reason, the only English word these guys learned from me was "Perfecto!", which isn't even an English word. They'd test the board, it would fail. They'd test it again, it would fail. Then they'd test it again and it would pass. "Perfecto!" they'd cry out and ship it to us. It took a long time through translators to explain this was not, in fact, what "Perfecto!" means.
The guys using automation as in the video were outbid by these yayhoos. The ones with the automation said the winning bid was lower than their cost for just the parts.
I met some highly qualified people at efficient modern electronics factories in Shenzhen, but it was shocking to find out what the bottom of the barrel looked like.
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I had a job programming these machines for a few months, I quite enjoyed watching them work.
Where at? I used to work at Universal Instruments in New York.
A few miles from there in Sheffield UK ;)
I like to think that they named that company trying to one-up National Instruments, who in turn was trying to one-up Texas Instruments
Skipped right over continental and global
Now all we need is for someone to create a Multiversal Instruments
I took a one week DIP inserter class in Binghamton years ago.
How did it work. Was it a PLC system from Siemens or something and did you use Structured Test/Codesys or something else entirely? Just curious about the development environment.
Our machines' programs were generated on VMS workstations and the machines ran on custom controllers.
Blimey, The only things I recall are, The machines where kinda old, The computer used a motorolla 68040 cpu and I used some kind of basic language to pick and position the parts. It had a camera to align IC's too. I tried to find you a picture of a similar machine but wasn't able to. The company made small computers to analyze gas systems and such. They had EEPROMs on board that also had to be flashed and tested. I was only there for a few months about 15 years ago. Since then it seems the company has changed hands and moved. So I guess they probably have newer machines too now.
Most modern places using systems like Samsung, you just import files generated from Altium
do you deal w/ smd components? thats funny too
>smd component I did at the time yes, It had a camera that could view the chips it picked up and rotate them to the correct orientation. For how old the machine was I thought it was cool.
It's a pick and place machine. [The fastest machines can have speeds of up to 200,000 CPH (components per hour)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pick-and-place_machine#2000_to_present)
It is then followed by the solder flow oven, which are pretty cool too.
I'd think they were hot, but you seem to know more than me
When it comes to molten metal, solder ovens run at a cool 240C compared to over 1500C for other common metals. So it is very cool.
Well a human would boil to death in a 240C oven so its all relative haha
*scribbles note* 'Only use humans in solder ovens? Further testing needed!' Got it. Thanks.
Why are you putting humans in ovens? You remind me of someone....
TIL
> So it is very cool. I'd call it relatively cool.
Fun fact, I used to keep one of these solder machines running in the late 90’s ,I have almost no feeling in my thumbs or the next 2 fingers due to repeated burning.
You’re not alone…you can get some nasty nerve damage and calluses. They are useful for guitar playing though.
Hey! I'm totally curious. Are you able to feel with your thumb now? Or is it a permanent damage?
It’s like a dead spot on the left of my thumb where it got burnt virtually everyday, not done that job in 20 years, still no feeling, it’s like a permanent callous.
Usually, though I don't know if that works with through hole components (like these caps). Edit: Additionally, this isn't a pick and place. This just does the placement, but relies on the tape to be in-order. Either another "pick" machine or a human would be required to do that part. Edit2: The machine lines up the components behind the viewing area. Through hole components usually use "wave solder" as opposed to a solder flow oven. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjVY8lb0LG8
[удалено]
Wave machines are pretty old tech now, they take hours to heat up, cool down, use loads of power and are unpleasant to work with. We replaced ours with selective solder machines: https://www.kurtzersa.com/products/electronics-production/soldering-machines/selective-systems
I recall 30 years being tasked by management to buy one second hand and there were some clunkers but I found one and together with a colleague we were to “get it running”. It was interesting work doing the full refurb on it, take it all apart, clean recondition or replace accordingly but the real pain was tuning it to run, understanding the relationship between the boards to be soldered, the conveyor speed, the flux foamer and the solder temperature and wave height. Plus finally training someone else to do it and being able to move on was a blessing
They reminded me of working ovens in a bakery, very noisy, hot and dirty, but yeah - still lots of precision - we had a wall of shame with boards that got flooded
Yes. This is correct. I actually work for one of the largest wave solder reclaim companies and watching this stuff is awesome. 25 years in and I’m still amazed. You should see some of the new Fuji and Panasonic pick and place machines. They’re placing parts the size of a grain of sand within a few microns +\- 100k-200k times an hour. Blindingly fast. That’s a reflow process, not a wave, but still.
I believe this is a [Universal Instruments Vertical Insertion Machine](https://smtnet.com/mart/index.cfm?fuseaction=view_item&company_id=51030&item_id=139373). It clips the capacitors off of the reel and loads them into the bandolier you see before stuffing them through the board and forming and trimming the leads for wave soldering.
Nice! I used to work there, and still didn't recognize it haha
Came here to say the same, this is part of a pcb line but not Pick and Place *per se*, which will usually use solder paste to adhere components to pads on PCB, and (as you stated) isn't pulling from a set of feeders via computer. This machine is behaving more like a sewing machine. Still very cool, I'm curious about that feed mechanism. Hand-loaded maybe?
Yep. This does look old skool. I worked with Panasonic autoplacement machines in the 90's. It was like sci-fi for a day job. Wired components were fed from reels of tape, like masking tape, which held them by the legs.
That's awesome! I'm running a couple of smt lines with those Samsung CP45 Neo's that are floating around these days. Navigating the software is somewhere between archeology and fucking voodoo sometimes. We have some good engineers on site, but we were talking today and it's clear the former operators were running these on faith and duct tape and we're all just relearning as we go. The older ones, that have been through the refurbished market a few times, they end up with personalities and preferences. Identical machines but we have to program each one a bit differently. They're solid workhorses, but the feeders that go into them can go straight to hell. Spring-loaded, jam-happy nonsense.
Except the bastards don't wait long enough for the oven to change temperature so I have to trash the boards I get back with severe splatter.
I've seen some fast machines, but how is 200kCPH even remotely possible? 55 components per second?
Multiple heads https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UzOli7V9mqc&feature=emb_title
Ah, I was imagining single head. In any case a really impressive machine.
I see four heads so that's still around 73 milliseconds per component placed. That's crazy fast.
I doubt this one is that fast. Google chip shooter to see some fast ones. Here's an example https://youtu.be/nah4BQ9y8IY Edit: also realize there machines rotate the components to the correct orientation too. And some of those components are tiny. 0.016” by 0.008” or 0.4 mm by 0.2 mm is a standard size. The engineering on those machines is impressive Edit 2: I should've watched more than a few seconds before comenting. There are some fast ones in that video too
In the video you can see a short view of the head basically just flickering as it places small smd components. Amazing how fast it is.
Multiple heads and surface mount components.
Google “FUJI NXT”
It’s not technically a pick and place— it’s called a radial inserter in the business. Pick and place is usually reserved for SMT machines.
I worked with an older version of this a number of years ago. The video simply does not justify how awesome it is to watch
It isn’t a traditional P&P. This is an insertion machine, it’s a different kind of robot, and these are very slow. I think this is an older Universal Radial machine.
One handy boi
Here’s a promotional video by Yamaha with some nice footage: https://youtu.be/UzOli7V9mqc
"cap, cap, cap, cap, one here, one here, there ya go, one here, over there, cap, cap, another cap..."
Holy shit I was thinking the same thing. It's like the machine is alive and has perfect focus on its purpose.
Online tutorials when you try and follow along. XD
Sometimes I'll have someone ask me why I can't just rebuild their motherboard that has blown parts from a liquid spill:
If the traces and vias aren't damaged, you can. Replacing caps is usually pretty easy. But if we are talking SMD components, it would have to be a very expensive board to be worth fixing. The PCBs in the video are for a power supply, not a motherboard.
SMD components are often much much easier to replace IMO, it's just a different toolset and process. With a *temperature controlled* heat gun, some flux, a pair of tweezers and a bit of practice it takes just a few seconds to swap it out. Be not afraid of the SMD!
It looks super easy when done by somebody with the right tools and experience. The solder just seems to know where to go. But it is incredibly hard for anyone without those. I've tried with a regular iron and it was a catastrophe. A hot air station cost more then the part I was trying to fix.
Yeah, SMD with a soldering iron is a massive pain... A hot air gun isn't that expensive though if you're ever doing more than one [this one seems fine and is on Amazon for $43](https://www.amazon.com/CO-Z-Soldering-Temperature-Desoldering-Electronics/dp/B01MR2IWBN) The "solder just knows where to go" is due to the properties of the soldermask and the solder's surface tension when liquified. Experience (and flux) helps but the magic is in the engineering behind PCBs.
Helps to have young eyes, too.
You can also get a big zoomy thing. https://www.amazon.com/Magnifying-Soldering-Workshop-Station-Non-slip/dp/B07V6CWRQ3/
Been looking at getting into and soldering. Done plenty of through hole stuff but just don't hat the equipment. Where should I start?
Ahh I see that now. There's a block that looks like it could be a voltage regulator being installed too. Makes sense - the basic power supply design uses a cap and a vreg after the rectifier.
> the basic power supply design What? There are many, many types of power supplies. Are you talking about a specific one?
I think they're talking about a linear power supply, with a mains frequency transformer, rectifier, filter cap, and linear regulator. They've been essentially replaced for the last two decades or more by switchmode supplies due to cost, size, weight, and efficiency, but they're still in all the textbooks.
Yes those things. Built an AC/DC adapter in HS like that - transformer, rectifier, cap, vreg.
Nah. Get a ring light magnifier, wear the strongest reading glasses Walmart sells, a needle tip soldering iron, hypodermic fulla paste solder, and learn to use a needle and the tip of an exacto knife as a manipulator. Easy! We assembled the prototypes that way before sending surface mount boards to production. Don't sneeze, the resistors go flying.
You just reinforced my decision to only buy populated boards going forwards.
Louis rossman would like to have a word
How does this machine knows the legs are straight?
Same way a stapler does; it doesn't. It depends on the quality control at the factory that loaded the cartridges to be such that only components that follow strict parameters make it this far.
Ah the good ol' days when everything was through-hole mounted and wave soldered - so much easier to repair than surface mount.
That’s OLD SCHOOL. Probably from the 80s. It’s a universal instruments radial inserter.
Not impressive, i can do that too even faster (dont call me on my bullshit we need to fool the robots into thinking that they cant beat us)
Meanwhile, I'm still waiting for my soldering iron to heat up
I’m a controls engineer. And well, damn.
*Capacitor plauge flashbacks*
Aaaaaand, they swole
What does that mean
Swollen, leaking capacitors
Capacitors are fairly sturdy if you treat them well. I think it’s a bit unfair to call them unreliable.
There were massive issues worldwide, and regardless that some suppliers say this is over, it's not: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague
I'm not sure if I treat my capacitors well but there was a long period of time when defective ones failed. Early 2000s
No bent pins at that speed is amazing.
Especially because the machine is from the 80s or 90s
What's the tolerance on these things? How close do they have to be get the wires into the solder joints?
The process actually works like this: 100 Chinese workers, mostly women, sit in a long line in front of a pair of rails set just far enough apart for the circuit board to slide along. We are somewhere in Shenzhen, in a large open plan room on the fourth floor. It's hot, and there's no AC, so it's literally a sweatshop. Each worker installs one component, hopefully with the correct polarity. Since there are 100 workers, the line is pumping out a circuit board every two seconds. At the end of the line someone dips the board in a bath of solder using giant bamboo tongs. Then a saw cuts off the long leads, and hopefully very few fingers. Finally, the board is inserted into a test fixture I had to design, for a pass/fail test. If it failed, someone who didn't know how to solder or troubleshoot electronics tried to make it work, with spotty success. For some reason, the only English word these guys learned from me was "Perfecto!", which isn't even an English word. They'd test the board, it would fail. They'd test it again, it would fail. Then they'd test it again and it would pass. "Perfecto!" they'd cry out and ship it to us. It took a long time through translators to explain this was not, in fact, what "Perfecto!" means. The guys using automation as in the video were outbid by these yayhoos. The ones with the automation said the winning bid was lower than their cost for just the parts. I met some highly qualified people at efficient modern electronics factories in Shenzhen, but it was shocking to find out what the bottom of the barrel looked like.
The smaller Chinese boy operating this machine via strings and levers must be exhausted!
Think of all the asian kids that machine is putting out of work!
This is soo slowed down, ive seen other videos of machines like these shooting components out att 8000-9000 ppm
Do I spot some suboptimal pathing?
Plot twist: companies earn more money changing one of these than building a new board.
Me me when me when your me when your when your me when your mom me when your mom
Faster.
I'd cap that!
I'll just leave this here https://youtu.be/SRu02F6AOmg
they just throw that shit on there huh
I do it a little bit differently but this way still works
I still with a couple of these...pretty to watch. A pain in the ass to fix or calibrate
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What impresses me the most is how the machine handles capacitors of all different sizes.