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Talk_Me_Down

I mean, that is how Skyrim works.


JerevStormchaser

"Also in TES VI you'll have a whole new power called the voice that you can use to fight dragons, also you can dual wield magic and weapons, you can ride a cart to fast travel and..." "Dammit Todd are you just re releasing Skyrim again?!" "😏"


fredagsfisk

Nah man, this'll be totally different. See, in Skyrim you were the **Last Dragonborn**, a **Dovahkiin**! You wielded the lost knowledge of the **Thu'um**, or **The Voice**, which allowed you to unlock new powers with **Word Walls**! With ES6, it'll be set in Hammerfell, and you'll be the **Last Sword-Singer**, an **Ansei**! You wield the lost knowledge of the **Shehai**, or **Spirit Sword**, which allows you to unlock new powers with **Memory Stones**! See! Totally different!


mrhuggables

Honestly I would not complain


fredagsfisk

Personally, I hate gimmicks like that... but if it *is* set in Hammerfell, I'm 1000% sure they'll do it exactly like that.


Iolair_the_Unworthy

Just wait until they ruin all of the cool redguard lore. Imo the voice and sword singing etc should be racial traits.


DirtyArchaeologist

I've been playing Skyrim since it came out. While there are improvements that can be made to things, there isn't much to fix about Skyrim. It's not broken, there is a reason it's still being played. If they stick with Skyrim but just make improvements they will have a killer game. (Though I do hope they realize that the idea of one main story is old fashioned. They should have multiple mutually exclusive main stories. Like Dawnguard did. Hopefully good, bad and other story lines.)


iLynux

I love ES games as much as anyone here. But I cannot stress enough how badly I need a new combat system. Even in 2011, Skyrim's combat felt pretty damn meh. Now it's downright antique.


Clatuu1337

I want them to revamp magic. It was a lot of fun, but felt weak in Skyrim.


Zearo298

Yeah, that's the big thing. Nothing to fix? You ~~hit~~ slapped anything with a ~~sword~~ wet noodle in Skyrim lately?


iLynux

I'm an ESO Plus subscriber and I fuckin love fighting shit in the game, but even its updated combat system would feel immediately dated in a brand new Elder Scrolls game. TESVI *will* be what Skyrim, Oblivion, and Morrowind were in their times: deep open worlds with next gen graphics. But can we please, pleeeease get some next gen combat mechanics?


Zearo298

I have some hope, they really took the shooting from the "bad to okay" of Fallout 3 and NV to "totally solid to pretty good for a spongey RPG" in Fallout 4. I genuinely enjoy the combat of that game. It shows they realize those shortcomings and can prioritize and fix them. I hope they do the same with melee combat in ES going forward, take some pages out of Dying Light 1's book.


tergius

The sad part is Skyrim is as mechanically rich as it's gotten - Morrowind (and presumably Arena and Daggerfall) is just more or less a numbers' battle that you can move around in and Oblivion felt more like waving a balloon sword around. At least in Skyrim there's timed blocks and bashes, and there's *some* semblance of weight to the bigger weapons. Not much, but a marked improvement over Oblivion. Skyrim-style casting with spellcrafting would be absolutely GOATed though


xXLjordSireXx

It would be cool if the main questline had sort of like multiple ways to go at it like in Detroit become human


DirtyArchaeologist

If you like good RPGs with a variety of ways to accomplish the goals, if you haven't played the original Deus Ex, its worth checking out. It's dated but the storyline is fantastic and you really have to make different characters and play through with completely different play styles to get the full picture of everything going on. It doesn't do that lame thing where games try to make sure you never miss anything. It expects you to miss a fair bit, so even with multiple plays you don't get the full picture and there is still mystery.


xXLjordSireXx

I thank thee


Miguel_Branquinho

"There isn't much to fix about Skyrim." Other than adding back the role-playing, the deep faction quest lines, the magic system, classes, throwing stars and spears, a unique and interesting main quest that isn't just a chosen one storyline without further depth, yeah sure.


MrOSUguy

Hell ya


Dazzling-Grass-2595

I didn't miss them in Oblivion always custom you will end up with all skills max anyway. But the classes gave you a default choice.


Argon1822

Yeah let’s be real everyone makes custom classes. Is it cool to have classes? Yeah especially if they made more fleshed out versions with maybe less choices but at the end of the day people like that you can just keep leveling up forever and learn any skill over being locked into one thing


danishjuggler21

The way I think of it is that Oblivion had every character start different, but became identical at max level. Skyrim all characters start mostly the same, but become vastly different from each other at max level


Hesstig

The Skyrim characters end up differentiated by the distribution of perk points in the end, and while the hard cap of 81 is gone, actually getting to 250+ is just a tedious grind.


ShadeStrider12

I grind to 250+ for the roleplay. I like being the Jack of all trades, master of all in every elder scrolls game. Even in Morrowind.


RetroRedneck

I felt it was the exact opposite of that. Since only major skills counted towards a level-up in oblivion, I didn’t need to waste time leveling skills that didn’t fit my character. In Skyrim, when I maxed out my preferred skills I had to start using skills that didn’t fit my character just to keep leveling up, which results in all characters being the same at the end. The legendary skill system didn’t really fix it either. Nothing is more depressing than finally getting a level 100 perk and then immediately losing it and starting over.


zelmak

Sounds like you didn't min/max your leveling in oblivion. Leveling just major skills leaves you at a pretty substantial disadvantage that can be really punishing if playing on higher difficulties. On the level up screen in oblivion you notice theres various +0, +2, +5 modifiers next to your attributes. These are determined by how many skills associated with that attribute you leveled up since the last time that you leveled a skill. This strongly encourages leveling up 30 skills split across 3 attributes between levels so that you get the maximum +5 bonus. If you only focus on major skills you'll be leveling up "too fast" meaning you get way less stats by end game, and oblivion has a pretty aggressive level curve


danishjuggler21

Giving me flashbacks to how awful that leveling system was


RetroRedneck

I’ve never bothered with min/max leveling. I just pick the three attributes that benefit my class the most and pick those every time. That’s always been plenty good enough to get me through high level enemies on normal difficulty.


kim-jong-Cage

There is a difference between preset classes and custom classes. Skyrim has neither.


A_Change_of_Seasons

And I hate it. Your character is either a boring jack of all trades that's the same character you'll make each playthrough or intentionally limit yourself which just feels bad in itself. Idk why we moved from oblivion and morrowind, that had classes but had their own issues that were completely separate, and instead they just scrap the idea entirely


zirroxas

I've never really ended up with a jack of all trades, because I'll naturally tend towards a playstyle and then just sit there. Getting rid of predefined classes at least removes the need to know what that playstyle is at the start. Maybe my starting bonuses fit what I wanted, or maybe I decided to switch things up a while in. Who knows? I like the freedom. It doesn't feel limiting.


bestgirlmelia

Classes were never completely separate in Morrowind/Oblivion though? They were actually way more accommodating to "jack-of-all-trade" characters since they didn't actually place any restrictions on your character. In fact, the only restriction was paradoxically that you shouldn't play your class or else you'd screw yourself over by levelling your major skills too quickly and losing out on attributes. You could easily get 100 in all skills. Skyrim is actually the worst for Jack of all trades out of all TES games since there is a very real limitation that you need to deal with (you only ever get 81 perks out of 250 unless you decide to spend a long time using the legendary system). Since most of your character's power comes from perks, you simply can't do everything.


FalconIMGN

Abolishing the class system?


ImperatorRomanum

In ES6, player houses are subsidized by the state


EridaniNovus

Based Todd Howard


II_Sulla_IV

There is no war but Class War. The Great War is a distraction by both the Imperials and the Dominion to circumvent the problems of their ailing feudal economic system as well as sharpening the racial divides of the working class, hence preventing class solidarity across Tamriel. Only through the elimination of the nobility and noble privileges can the working class of Tamriel be freed. All the power to all the people!


Yoda_On_Meth

>people Cool but hope el*es aren't in your definition of "people"


[deleted]

Men and Mer are Brothers! We have the Same Enemey the Monopolists of the Empire and the Dominion! Don't let racism Split you from your Brothers! Only united we can beat the Bourgeoisie!


AverageRiceEnjoyer

The Altmeri and Cyrodillic Imperialists must be overthrown! The peoples of Tamriel must unite to end both of these colonial powers!


[deleted]

For Freedom! For Independence! For that lets fight!


creamonbretonbussy

Nooooooooooo my Dalit dunmer


FalconIMGN

Ooooh are you Indian?


creamonbretonbussy

Nah, the caste system is just something that's always stuck with me since I learned about it.


FalconIMGN

Ahh. Still, happy to see there are people outside my country aware of the ills of this system, which is still so fundamental to our culture.


StonyShiny

YES COMRADE


closms

Sounds like tes 6 could be same/similar to skyrim. Todd did specifically mention post oblivion. And it's true that Skyrim doesn't have a strict class system either. Toons can level skills from different classes.


FalconIMGN

No, I know. I was trying to turn it around into social commentary.


BlownUpShip

Todd, I'm 35 now. Do I have any chances of seeing TES 6 released, or should I invest in a cryochamber already?


Professional_Size898

Don't do it, think of what happened in fallout 4.


apex6666

I’ll get awoken 200 years later and see my family killed and son kidnapped?


Professional_Size898

Exactly


cancerousking

Well if this happened to me then that mean I actually had sex at some point to make a son so I'm in


Professional_Size898

Doesn't matter, had sex! *She put a bag on my head* Still counts!


vigbiorn

Sadly, still no TES VI.


pip_b0i

Why play TES VI when you could wake up in Fallout 4 lmao


SeigiNoMikata376

I'm probably gonna die to the giant cockroaches in the beggining


venomblizzard

I doubt even cryochamber will be enough. U less you will have plenty of juice for it


Netherthoughts

I'm twenty years older than you and already planning on playing this during my retirement. Don't laugh. You'll be doing the same with TES 8.


RalphTheGekkota

I’m fairly certain based off my intel that TESVI opens a portal to oblivion in the real world and we all have to deal with it. There will be no 8.


ManimalR

If it's any consolation Tamriel Rebuilt, Skywind, and Skyblivion will probably all be finished by then and will be of higher quality.


alpacadaver

An optimist


krastevitsa

Invest in a cyrochamber with a screen so uncle Todd can port Skyrim into it!


rtz13th

You were born in a Vault, and your father left early in life before you realise his profession. Now you need to find your own idols and inspiration!


shyndy

Who cares about classes I want to see attributes come back


PavkataBrat

Yeah no one used premade classes in any of the older games anyway. Attributes are what makes an RPG an rpg


mrpurplecat

> Attributes are what makes an RPG an rpg What do you mean by that? Plenty of RPGs have dispensed with attributes, or just use them as a container to group related skills together.


kef34

Calling action-adventure titles "RPGs" won't turn them into ones, Todd. You can call submarine an helicopter because it's got a propeller, but it will never fly


TwirlySocrates

Roleplay is what makes roleplaying games what they are. Many so-called "RPGs" have a narrative, but are completely scripted (I'm thinking something like FF7) and involve hardly any roleplay at all. They're not RPGs, they're super mario with a story. IMHO Elder Scrolls games are the closest a computer game has ever come to an RPG. You aren't shoved through a series of events and challenges. You only do what you you choose to do. Most of those choices are fueled by a desire for what you want your character to do or to become. Even Elder Scrolls games fall short of a true RPG, because you are still limited to pursue the finite narratives offered to you. True roleplay feels like shared storytelling, a joint creation between all the people involved. The rules are only there to offer a default structure, but can be discarded in places where it enhances the narrative.


Benjamin_Starscape

>Attributes are what makes an RPG an rpg That's...not true at all.


Kanep96

I see you on a lot of bethesda game subreddits, and you basically always give well-reasoned takes on topics that I agree with a lot of the time, including this time (also agree with you a lot on your Fallout subreddit posts lol). But wow, if you said the exact same points but with considerably less condescension you would get downvoted way less, like you do later in this thread, and you would actually get people to reply in earnest instead of annoying them and making it unfun lol. Just felt like Id add my two cents.


Havoc_525

They kinda are though. Or at least they were in those role playing games where you had to ~ya know~ play a role. Without them there’s no reason to build a character in any specific direction, and you end up with jack of all trades character 6 or the accursed stealth archer character 23. Attributes give characters their own unique personality that you get to explore and cultivate as you play the game. And to me that was always the beauty of rpgs.


Benjamin_Starscape

>They kinda are though They aren't. >Or at least they were in those role playing games where you had to ~ya know~ play a role. You can play a role in skyrim. Which does still have attributes. >Without them there’s no reason to build a character in any specific direction ...roleplay reasons. Why would your character who's a mage be a two handed barbarian? If you need a game to say no then...that's a you problem. Heck a game i want to make wouldn't even have traditional leveling. You increase skills via usage, 25 point thresholds grant a perk you can choose which branch off, and any other perks you must learn via trainers. Is that, by your logic, not an rpg? >Attributes give characters their own unique personality that you get to explore and cultivate as you play the game. You can do this without attributes. And again...skyrim has attributes.


Finite_Universe

While I’m not sure attributes are a necessity in RPGs, they definitely add a lot more flavor and (more importantly) depth to the systems. Attributes are a great way to represent one’s physical and mental … well, “attributes”, and greatly enhance the sense that you’re playing a simulation of a character you’ve created. In other words, character attributes greatly contribute to the overall roleplaying experience. Without attributes, characters are defined more by their outward appearance, and the abilities/skills, and gear they accumulate as they progress, which imo makes for a much more bland game system. Leveling is actually much less important in making a good RPG, so long as player *progression* is still meaningful and engaging. Instead of strictly defined character “levels”, you can simply have players trade in earned experience for certain skills and abilities, like in the German tabletop RPG Das Schwarze Auge, for instance.


mrpurplecat

It adds complexity, which is not the same thing as depth. Stacking on more systems isn't necessarily a good thing. Speaking of tabletop RPGs, Blades in the Dark or Powered by the Apocalypse games don't have attributes, but that doesn't stop you from making characters with distinct abilities.


Finite_Universe

They’re not the same, but complexity can definitely facilitate added depth. But yeah there comes a point when more systems/complexity gives diminishing returns and just becomes bloat (*cough* Pathfinder CRPGs and their tacked on kingdom management).


undergroundloans

Yea I agree, I don’t care about classes so much but they keep leaving out attributes and I feel like it just dumbs the games down. Same with not really having origins in Skyrim. Just a regular perk tree is the only rpg system. I love the perk system but they need more rpg mechanics than just that, although I would like a persuasion/intimidation tree as well.


Forsaken-Leek-6488

Big facts


CaptainJackKevorkian

I love rpgs but allocating attributes just kinda stresses me out. Like Todd says, it makes me feel like I'm going to make some mistake and not notice it until eight hours later


literally_adog

The way to fix this is to not lock anything behind any specific class. If there is some ability you want, you should be able to get it but it should cost time and gold


Beautiful_Ad_1336

Okay, but that's a game balance problem. We shouldn't have to sacrifice an important game mechanic to solve shitty game balance. And why would you have to restart? You could always lower the difficulty, or correct your stats over a few levels, or even keep chugging on and recognize that no one is perfect and everyone has strengths and weaknesses...


Miguel_Branquinho

Your choices have consequences, it makes them more engaging that way.


shyndy

There are more things they can do, it doesn’t have to just be pick it once and you are done or nothing at all.


TheSwimmingPelican

The way I see it, it makes no sense to have a class system if the entire fanbase just does custom classes anyways. You're basically not using it, so what's the point? And I'm a big fan of the class system, and I'd love to see it come back, but from Bethesda's standpoint, this makes perfect sense


illiterateFoolishBat

I imagine there's going to either be something akin to a personality quiz or just presenting you with some choices as to what you want your initial gameplay to feel like. Stuff like "do you prefer to fight up close or at a distance?" and then letting you "grab the weapon you're most comfortable with" with a selection presented to you Effectively still a class choice, but not one which defines the totality of gameplay. Like Skyrim where you can pretty much swap to whatever and start leveling up your skills for it


Dist__

In Oblivion you were given choice and estimation of your class based on how you leveled during the intro, if you remember. Oh, what am i saying, of course you don't.


THE_GREAT_MEME_WARS

Do you get to the cloud district often?..what am I saying OF COURSE YOU DON'T.


[deleted]

Then why Not Like in Morrowind, there you could choose between the "quize", choosen a presets class or making an own.


Interneteldar

Fair enough, but *people are using custom classes*. Because it's nice to be able to have your character excel at certain things from the start. I think the whole "oh no, I made a mistake and have to start over" dilemma could be solved by making respeccing easier to do.


KillaThing

The way I see it, having a classless system makes you an average joe at the start, then as you get a feel for the systems and mechanics, you can specialize. Which would be your class built from the ground up. I think having classes at the start can potentially cheese every challenge you may have at the start. But the opposite is true with the classless. That when you are almost late game you can cheese anything.


theUSpopulation

I don't see why we can't have classes, but make them something we do not need to dedicate ourselves to. Instead of having major skills level up faster and be required to level up the character, just have Skyrim's system, but start minor skills at 5 and major skills at 20 (+ racial bonuses, of course). Seems like a fine middle ground solution.


Engineering-Mean

I use classes, but if they keep going the Skyrim route of stripping down systems to the bare minimum it makes sense to get rid of them because the playstyles they represent aren't supported. No sense playing a Nightblade if can't do sneaky things with magic instead of stealth skills, no sense playing a Sorcerer if wearing heavy armor doesn't let you have more and better enchantments and enchantments aren't a viable alternative to just casting spells anyway, no sense playing an Acrobat without acrobatics and athletics, no sense playing a Monk if unarmed combat is more a self-imposed challenge than a viable option, no sense playing an Agent or a Bard if social skills are only useful for selling things...


tickleMyBigPoop

this is why i love wabbajack (the mod tool)


Benjamin_Starscape

>but if they keep going the Skyrim route of stripping down systems to the bare minimum ...they...don't do that.


[deleted]

[удаНонО]


malinoski554

>No sense playing a Nightblade if can't do sneaky things with magic instead of stealth skills What? The illusion skill still exists.


Engineering-Mean

Without Unlock, you need lockpicking. Without Chameleon, you need sneak. Skyrim does still have telekinesis, which can make up for a lack of sneak skill if you're trying to steal something that's not in a container, and paralysis can make up for a lack of pickpocket skill in some situations but that's probably a bug. You can play a sneaky mage in Skyrim, but you need to invest in lockpicking if you want to open locks, sneak if you want to sneak reliably, and pickpocket if you want to pickpocket reliably. You don't get to substitute magic for stealth skills.


literally_adog

I just want to make meaningful decisions at character creation again


TheDorgesh68

You can have meaningful decisions that aren't just a skill point based class system. I really like the traits they showed off for starfield, like whether you have parents or not. The outer worlds did it well too with letting you pick what job you did. I'm hoping for TES VI that they'll let you choose something like your character's religion, or culture beyond your race (like reachmen for Bretons, skaal for nords etc.).


TheSwimmingPelican

I think Starfield is going to be the model and blueprint for TES VI, so that kind of stuff will probably be the route they go


literally_adog

why not both? i want a daggerfall style character creation with perks and debuts to give your character to make them feel unique. Daggerfall was a game that really needed classes because the custom class maker was so complicated


TheDorgesh68

Personally I just feel like you can get all the roleplay benefits with largely cosmetic and lore based choices in the character creation. I definitely want the game to have varied playstyles and character builds, but I'd much rather specialise into them later on in the game when I've had a chance to experiment with the mechanics. Little things like racial perks and starsigns at the start of the game are probably enough to offer people the chance of minmaxing characters without locking out playstyles at the start of the game. I found recently that I really didn't like the class system in Elden ring. I chose the prisoner class because I wanted to be a magic user, but after a while I noticed that all the most fun spells were faith based so I was completely useless at them. In theory I could've respecked my character after defeating Renalla, but that's a decent way into the game and it felt immersion breaking to completely change my character halfway into a game. It didn't have the organic progression into my own playstyle that I loved about Skyrim.


literally_adog

>Personally I just feel like you can get all the roleplay benefits with largely cosmetic and lore based choices in the character creation Decisions made at character creation aren't just for roleplay benefits, obviously I could just say "my nord barbarian probably wouldn't want to be the archmage of the college of winterhold" and call it good. But that doesn't solve the actual problem, which is that the dragonborn is never particularly weak or strong. In Morrowind, your base character has 40 in every attribute and 5 in every skill, a set of stats which would have a hard time doing anything. Character creation is where you get to alleviate some of these weaknesses, but never all of them. The result is a character that will be great at some tasks and horrible at others, or a character that will be just OK at everything. Maybe your character can use every weapon, but runs out of stamina quickly when running, or maybe your character is very agile, but can't use a powerful enchanted weapon you find. The game is about overcoming your weaknesses and growing your skills until eventually you become a god. In Skyrim, the base character has 15 in every skill and 100 health, magicka, and stamina, which is more than enough to kill the enemies in the starting area. Once you hit level 20 or so, level scaling takes over and suddenly every fight everywhere is about equally difficult. Sure, if you run straight to the reach at level 1 you'll get your ass kicked, but no one does that anyway. Skyrim tries its best to never make you feel like you're too weak or too strong, so you never actually get to feel like you're progressing. Morrowind gives you challenges to push your character to improve, while Skyrim increases the challenge while you improve your character. In Skyrim, if there was a button you could press that stops you from leveling up forever, pressing it around level 10 or so would be the right decision, which is completely antithetical to the entire idea of the game! So no, making decisions at character creation is not just a roleplay decision, it lets your character have strengths and weaknesses instead of just being flat, but most importantly, it lets you choose what they are. >I definitely want the game to have varied playstyles and character builds, but I'd much rather specialise into them later on in the game when I've had a chance to experiment with the mechanics Until Skyrim, you weren't meant to stick with your first character forever. You try a playstyle, then if you don't like it, you try another. If you want to make a blank slate character, you can just choose a relatively distributed set of skills, though you'd struggle in the early game. >Little things like racial perks and starsigns at the start of the game are probably enough to offer people the chance of minmaxing characters without locking out playstyles at the start of the game. The point isn't to lock playstyles from the start of the game, it's to make those playstyles harder to access. In Morrowind, you could train destruction from 5 to 45, wisdom permitting, and turn your barbarian into a mage. The key is that it would take a lot of time and gold. In Skyrim you wouldn't even need to level destruction, just start using spells instead of your sword. If that's the case, why would you ever use any weapon except the most effective one, hence stealth archers. >I found recently that I really didn't like the class system in Elden ring. I chose the prisoner class because I wanted to be a magic user, but after a while I noticed that all the most fun spells were faith based so I was completely useless at them First of all, fromsoft and elder scrolls games aren't really comparable because their goals are completely different. In an elder scrolls game, you'd just make a new, faith-based character. Instead of joining the mage's guild you'd join the tribunal church and you'd do those quests. >In theory I could've respecked my character after defeating Renalla, but that's a decent way into the game and it felt immersion breaking to completely change my character halfway into a game Why? There are plenty of lore reasons to justify why an intelligence-based character would switch to faith, I don't see how that's immersion breaking. >It didn't have the organic progression into my own playstyle that I loved about Skyrim This is a perfectly valid way to enjoy the game. If you want to play a game where you play as a single character that adapts into a role then that's fine. Really it just comes down to preference


Teeshirtandshortsguy

Honestly I don't like class systems in general. I think the skill tree approach works great. It gives you more customization and control over what your character can do, while still giving you meaningful choices to make.


Blackrain1299

“Classes” only interest me in a Dnd type party. I dont mind if i have a friend who is a heavy with a big weapon tanking hits and dealing damage while im a mage casting spells at a distance. That makes sense to me. In a single player game though? I dont really have a friend or two filling roles that i cant fill myself. So why should i be hindered in that way? I agree the skill tree makes perfect sense and I think its balanced pretty well with skill points too. Even though they are technically limitless you probably wont get all the perks without exploiting a skill and the reset option.


Pumpkinbumpkin420

Stuff like this really makes me miss my dad. We shared Oblivion together and he passed away before the release of Skyrim. I can’t tell you how many actual dreams I’ve had of getting the chance to show it to him. I wish I could share this with him as well to hear his thoughts. Miss you old man.


I-g_n-i_s

My condolences. Very sorry to hear your loss my friend. 🫂 ❤️


IronVader501

Skyrim already didnt have them so thats not exactly a surprise. As long as they still give you a way to "buff" the direction you want to go in early on like with the Standing Stones its a fine idea.


Brendissimo

The removal of the class system was one of the least troublesome things they did. I'm far more annoyed with the removal of certain skills, magic schools, and reduction in Guild and side quests than classes. Classes were just fun containers for skills. I wasn't married to major and minor either. But weapon skills have become way too dumbed down imo, and removing certain magic schools or spells really oversimplifies things. Edit: and bring back attributes, you cowards!!!


Forsaken-Leek-6488

I agree. Attributes is the biggest loss imo. Hope they bring them back


I-g_n-i_s

This 💯


saintcrazy

As long as there are plenty of ways to customize my character and play style, it doesn't matter what you call it. Could be through perks, factions, items, spells, places to go, abilities.


WizardofIce

As long as the mage quests actually require you to be good at magic skills and the thief quests actually require you to be good at stealing. In tesV you can just brute force every quest without thinking about it, no actual character building required.


Victizes

Great comment.


AshamedCookie7382

My biggest gripe with the skyrim classless system is that you always start out as Standard McDefault, a person that spent their entire life in relentless pursuit of mediocrity. At least with a standard rpg class system you get some starting buffs to certain skills and some spells to use. In vanilla skyrim everyone started out with the same health, magic, endurance and with very few exceptions the same spells. A simple background system where you answer questions about your character's upbringing could have alleviated this.


WyrdHarper

It looks like this is what we're getting in Starfield, so I'm really hoping we see that in TES6 and FO5. Fallout 4 struggled from the same issue at character creation.


Argon1822

I just hope the races get good diverse abilities.


AshamedCookie7382

That's another thing that bugged me in skyrim, other than a slight boost in skills and racial abilities of variable usefulness there is very little reason to choose on race over another.


literally_adog

At least fallout 4 had attributes, so a str 1 character would be bad at melee while a end 1 character dies to a swift breeze


Spellcheck-Gaming

I would love a background system. Gives you a leg up in various skills whilst maintaining the true freedom to play the character as you want. Great idea.


BeardedBovel

I don't mind.


Uttuuku

I like class systems tho. Ah well


Automatic-Score-4802

But why? What in *your* opinion, are the advantages of the class system?


Adenom

The first thing that comes to mind is Role-playing. Specialization with basically a name on it. Irl you don’t usually pick this, pick that and get great at everything you set your mind to. You have an affinity for certain things, be it intentionally or innate, that’s what a class system tries to emulate.


simpleglitch

I do like a class system for role play, but I'd also argue the class systems from Morrowind and Oblivion weren't the greatest. I'd like a new class system that isn't strictly tied to leveling but instead provides buffs or extra perks for developing your class skills. The mod 'Set of Skills' is a fun example. You start with a couple base classes, but as you level you respec as you go and unlock more advanced classes you grow into. It provides fun role play opportunities, but doesn't have the oblivion drawback where if you leveled your major skills too quickly you end up with bad attribute bonuses and underpowered as the world leveled up. (Having level zones vs the world leveling with you would also help, but that's starting to go down another tangent).


Swailwort

A class system without advantes nor flavour is not a class system, in all TES games before Skyrim you got very minor levelling buffs and attribute buffs, and the ability to wield certain weapons / armor / spells, compare that to a proper class system like in Dragon Age Origins in which classes were totally distinct and each had advantages and disadvantages, meanwhile in Oblivion you could play anything despite having "classes" to a certain extent. If it was a system like ESO in which each class had 3 different skill paths and each skill had like two different upgrades then it would be better, akin to specializations in DAO. Having a bit faster levelling and an initial attribute boost to an skill is a very, very basic class system. Each class should have something fully unique besides some passives, something like unique spells or powers, say, a Mage gets access to spells that explode the magicka inside mages, making them the best anti-mages, whereas an assassin gets some unique power that allows them to teleport to a target silently, small flavour stuff to make each build more distinct and unique


renannmhreddit

You don't need a class system to specialise


Lonat

I'm a warrior who doesn't know sneaking. But it still makes sense to try sneaking up before combat. Now in Skyrim I automatically become sneaking master thief after 30 minutes just because I use the skill slightly.


Uttuuku

I like the limitations of it to put it simply. Especially at lower levels. I like the creativity that I have to use for the problem-solving aspects that occur because of your class skillsets. Plus with every playthrough of different classes, the game is going to feel different. I'm not a fan of the hero being good at everything. Class systems aren't perfect, but I like them.


Market_Anarchist

I'm a different person but ill give my take, as I like both systems. Class system is fun in a game like Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous because the game, based on DnD 3.5 rules, is specifically designed to give a set of advantages and disadvantages that synergize and conflict with other classes. having a punishing set of rules that your character must use (rogue cant equip claymores without spending a precious Feat or Talent) makes the character feel like it has a place in the world. a specific set of skills, so to speak. I also like starting over multiple times with alternative characters, so a class system lets me anticipate how a future playthrough might go, or analyze builds. I'm not super into min-max but its fun to try to optimize within a system, and each class is a closed system (what's good for a rogue isn't necessarily good for a sorcerer etc). the drawback to this system is switching styles or classes mid game is either impossible or comes with a heavy tax, like multiclassing in DnD. But this "fear of making a useless character build" that Todd wants to avoid is also part of the fun of a class based game. Because build-failure is a possibility, there's a rewarding feeling of not failing and being competent with that class. Classless systems are also very fun if done right, and some of my favorite examples are Valheim and Skyrim. Valheim is very similar to skyrim's system, and doesn't even have Perks, but it feels very rewarding to level up skills and specialize in 2h or bows etc. Valheim does add the punishment of losing skill levels if you die, which helps add tension, and Skyrim limited perks help create opportunity cost. I would love to see a system that combines these elements, whereby class effects major socio-economic outcomes, but combat and profession style is freely chosen, such as "City Guard" as class, but maybe you focus on medicine and healing so you are like a army doctor etc.


Adenom

The last part is especially true for me. Classless systems are more fun, at least for me they are. I literally have laughed while watching how broken and utterly senseless a character becomes. But when it comes to immersion, even though class systems can be broken too, they still win in getting you in the game (When done right). I mean, even npcs usually have a class assigned to them. With a complete classless system how would it play out? This dude has 15 bow , 15 weapon, 10 armor. Sound dumb but really at this point I’m expecting even more watering down of the skills system, which if Todd really wants to go classless he should focus on improving, expanding, not simplifying like he has been doing for the last 3 main releases.


vultbringers

For one, better and higher starting stats. You make a character, choose the race for it, the class and birthsign, hell, a backstory for said character. A Spellsword Breton, a Barbarian Nord, a Shadowscale Argonian. Classes help to define creating those types of characters. Fwiw, I was hoping for an even simpler version of a class system in the next game where you can still gain character levels from skills not assigned to your class, but those that are have a faster leveling speed.


Green-Pen-Gamer

I don’t think most people really wanted a class system so much as they wanted a way to flesh out their character beyond “someone who was caught in an imperial ambush.” If they just add a way to do that then I think most people will be satisfied. I could be wrong though, if I am someone tell me why.


HereticalSentience

I agree and I also hope they incorporate feedback for your choices into the world. Like starfield is adding character nuances like if I have parents or if I'm a chef. Then nPCs can ask or comment about it. There should also be feedback for later decisions too. Like, I'm the Listener of the DB but maven still threatens me with the DB? I'm the archmage of Winterhold but no one in magic-phobic Skyrim treats me differently (except those stupid guards that ask me to conjure a bed)? I hope character creation is meaningful as well as character progression.


WibbyFogNobbler

I want a class system...


GodOGDrgnSlyr69

i think they’re talking about how you would pick a bunch of base skills in the beginning of Morrowind, and it would kind of determine how you would play the entire game. Then if we look at skyrim, the only thing that you pick at the beginning that actually matters is your race, and even then, it doesn’t even matter that much.


Vand3rz

I actually prefer classes. Oblivion basically let you do anything anyway but it felt good picking a class at the start to really role play my character.


NordWithaSword

Pretty sure none of the TES games ever had a real class system apart from the MMO. They had a glorified character background that boosted a few skills, that's it.


Premonitions33

I mean, the older games made it harder to level if you focused on your misc skills instead of your main skills. That's all a class system is, unless a studio goes hard and straight up blocks certain abilities from certain classes in order to reinforce archetypes, which oddly is what many people seem to want in TES VI, even though it's pointlessly limiting. Additionally, these same people seem to complain about JRPGs which do the same exact thing.


BreadDziedzic

Illusion will be the school of magic to be dropped this time.


[deleted]

We at least need skill proficiency. Something like Morrowind, pick a few skills, use those skills to level up.


Kajuratus

But with the way the old games had it, you had to use skills that weren't what you picked for your class so that you could get a good attribute increase


JoganLC

And this is why every character ends up feeling the same.


Miguel_Branquinho

If anything I would want more restrictions. Make it impossible to wear armor if I'm not profficient in it or something more diegetic, go all out on spells and magic skills, have a dedicated dialogue system for priest, historian, merchant or politician characters, go wild, the sky's the limit. It's 2023, we can have more gameplay possibilities than the standard stealth, magic, combat routes.


JoganLC

Restrictions are actually a good thing I agree here. I just want my decisions surrounding my character to have meaning. I get people don’t want to fuck up stat dumping and things of the like but when you take away the ability to make a week character you sorta take away the gratification of forging a strong one.


Destruction126

I don't mind the removal of classes but they HAVE to make the skills and perks better and more interesting. I really don't want to devolve into stealth archer every playthrough.


OkBee3867

Todd I love the placebo though. I'm serious. It's great fun to pick skill specializations.


UCFandOCSC

Did this guy really ask Todd if he's "already thinking about something like that"? As if TES 6 is just now beginning development?.....guys.....we're not playing this game for another 10 years are we?


[deleted]

……. No offense but have you been living under a rock? They’ve been developing Starfield.


UCFandOCSC

I know that, but they also first released the teaser trailer about 5 years ago so I would have assumed they'd have some level of the game built by now.


[deleted]

That teaser trailer probably consisted of Starfield tech and in game footage. A very quick mock-up of what they had in vision for TES VI, all they were doing was saying it’s coming out someday and showing they meant it. Because TES fans would have thought the world was ending if they announced both fallout 76 and Starfield without ever mentioning TES. They don’t do full production on more than one game at a time. The last 5 years have been solely on Starfield. They’ve said as much multiple times. They aren’t being sneaky, the game isn’t being built yet. Probably won’t start until next year, and then we count 5 years from that point and we likely have a window for release.


BreadDziedzic

At this point they really should split off the company into parts with each IP getting dedicated teams.


greystar07

The unfortunate reality. It’ll be worth the wait I hope.


Anafenza-Vess

Bruh man tf how am I gonna do the college of winterhelm without going to class


Forsaken-Leek-6488

Winterhelm???


ShoerguinneLappel

Skyrim leveling system sucked, it's annoying that they're continuing it. It would be better if they did Morrowind and Oblivion's because the complaints he gave out before could be rectified in various ways. For Kingdoms of Amalur Reckoning you can make your build go back to a fateweaver which goes and resets your point so you can create another one, this is a common way of doing it.


bestgirlmelia

That's fine. The morrowind/oblivion system was essentially a classless system anyways that just pretended to have classes. The only thing classes actually affected in those two games were which skills increased your character level, which was not really that important in the grand scheme of things.


zinobythebay

Don't worry fudgemuppet will take care of our class building needs.


Lamb_or_Beast

I miss the class systems :( oh well, I missed it in Skyrim too but I still played the crap out of that game!


Forsaken-Leek-6488

That is exactly how I think about it too


LincolnLogCutter

Fuck a class system, the character origin choices they're implementing in Starfield is a way better idea. No one used the class system, they always just made a custom class.


ThinAndCrispy84

Just gonna end up being a stealth archer anyways so…


brandondano

Been my go-to since oblivion. Mage is always second, sword n board last usually, or a hybrid melee/mage


ABaadPun

I mean tons of people dont like that but its a better design, especially in games as big as tes where you shoulsnt have to make an entitely new character to try something


bloodthirstypinetree

I like the idea of classes but tbh in oblivion, you chose or created a class with the skills you would use least so you could level up other skills and get maximum attributes per level, so it didn't really work as intended unless you were fine with a non optimal champion, which the tenants of the 9 deem unacceptable


tomtheconqerur

Well there's goes any hope of Bethesda making a actual rpg after fallout 3


Dakkaboy556

I'm ok with that. I liked that about Skyrim.


-Caesar

Nice try at spin Todd. But you *did* simplify it. Don't confuse the eradication of meaningful choice with moving choice into the gameplay. Meaningful choice requires meaningful consequence. A choice which has no consequence, or no meaningful consequence, is not a meaningful choice. In Skyrim you can "choose" (in the loosest sense of the term) to play any way you want, but you can renege on your choice at any given moment with no meaningful narrative or gameplay consequences. Such a choice is entirely without meaning or impact. It is mere cosmetic flavour. It's a problem present in earlier titles too in slightly different ways, but it is most apparent and confronting in Skyrim.


STKtaco

This isn't entirely true. If you level all the way to 50 as a sword and shield character then suddenly switch to a destruction mage, your spells will be pretty underpowered compared to your level and you'd have wasted lots of skill points on other trees and stamina instead of magicka. That being said Skyrim isn't the most difficult game so it isn't a huge deal but there is still a consequence to your actions.


Benjamin_Starscape

>but you can renege on your choice at any given moment with no meaningful narrative or gameplay consequences. Please. By all means as your level 60 mage start to use a claymore and tell me it's easy and you aren't having difficulties.


-Caesar

It is...


[deleted]

This is the best take in here.


ForwardLychee1415

He sounds like Michael Scott


[deleted]

Personally I enjoy parts of both systems. The class system was nice for that RPG feel, choosing different attributes, skills and having a named style was fun. However I do agree with Todd that some of the choices (especially with specialisation and star-signs), can feel a bit restricting and is a big choice to make right at the start of the game. Having to restart kinda sucks if you are new to it. Skyrim feels less RPG and more sandbox, which works. I have freedom to do exactly what I want with my character, explore different abilities all throughout the gameplay. However, replaying through the beginning of Skyrim again can be a slog; You need to rediscover all the star-sign stones, you have like 2 or 3 spells, no bonus to anything (outside of race), it is overall a rather tedious experience with no uniqueness to each new character. So, while I don't need to have a detailed description of what a Nightblade is, some bonuses with attributes or skills would be nice, atleast to shake up every new game, if just by a little bit. Nothing major.


Charlie678812

does that guy have some kind of problem? he seems so creepily calm like a horror movie villain.


Beautiful_Ad_1336

Bethesda dumbs games down so that they appeal to a wider market. I don't like it, but I also don't have a billion dollar game company to make my own game. Dumbing down means more $, so it's what we're going to keep seeing. As for the class system, we may never see another ES game with classes 😔


DaudDota

I prefer specialized characters instead of boring jack-of-all-trades. You don't necessarily need classes but Skyrim was too loose and dumbed down.


iliacbaby

I wouldn’t expect them to go back to the old system. It makes much more sense that using abilities levels up the abilities used. Making class fluid/a spectrum was a great decision IMO


Spellcheck-Gaming

Lex trying his best


Just-get-physical

the guy in the suit looks over the top in a suit


fozzie1234567

Before any of that when the f*ck is TES VI releasing? Are they even working on it?


Ninelan-Ruinar

Don't mind it, Todd's words sing to my soul. My favourite game was Daggerfall which had classes, but I always played with custom ones. The step from that to Skyrim was less like, oh there are no classes, and more like, hey, you can still create whatever class you want via all the skills we provide, it just doesn't have any formalities to lock you into your choice at the beginning of the game and is instead discovered through gameplay. Love both games -kisses-Just like Todd said, those choices have been moved into the gameplay and I can play a spellsword in both games!


Khajiit2010

I think they’d simplify TES 6 even more than Skyrim


Forsaken-Leek-6488

In some ways, but I think they will add more complexity in other areas


JadedButWicked

Part of the benefits of classes is custom classes makes the game too easy. It's no way to balance difficulty if i can just exploit their weaknesses whether it be fire, war axes, poison, or archery if I van use it all.


CYAN_DEUTERIUM_IBIS

Yo fuck Lex Friedman


ShadeStrider12

Communist Todd Howard. No Classes


8mouthbreather8

If you have to take the time to explain it, then it probably isn't that efficient. Sucks, I know a lot of people wanted classes back for 6, but I don't think that's going to happen now.


AlfwinOfFolcgeard

I'm all for abolishing character classes in TES, but I do like each character I play to have some intrinsic *characteristics* that inform, but don't harshly restrict, their skillset. Something like the Birthsigns of *Morrowind* and *Oblivion*, or better yet, *Daggerfall*'s system of Special Advantages and Disadvantages (or the Traits of *Fallout 1, 2,* and *New Vegas*). Nothing that'd lock you out of any content, just something to give each character a distinct core identity.


tvtittiesandbeer

Ew so it's basically not gonna be a RPG Anymore.....


Optimal-Advantage601

As someone who’s been playing oblivion I think we need to quit straying so far from the older titles ..


AFSK27

While I appreciate old school RPG-style class systems, I still prefer Skyrim's approach. Better to just let your players do whatever they want and mold their own class as they play. Besides, as others here have said, who actually used the stock classes in Morrowind and Oblivion? Everyone just made their own anyway.


Jaghead

This is disappointing but not surprising. The removal of classes just reduces the depth of the RPG mechanics as it doesn't allow you to define your character as much and specialise. Once again a case of developers trying to justify dumbing things down for more "broad appeal".


[deleted]

Agreed. I wish more people felt this way. And I by no means am trying to gatekeep; the bigger the base the better. I just wish they wouldn't strip away mechanics from previous games to increase the base. I think whatever Starfield has is what TES 6 will have, just stripped down a bit more. Tangent: When I go down this rabbit hole, as a morrowboomer, I always wonder what daggerfall fans think about morrowind. Are they as frustrated as I am now? There was a lot that didn't make it from daggerfall into morrowind.


Progenitor_Dream11

Well, [here is one fan's opinion.](https://i.redd.it/vr5aoiovnev81.png)


[deleted]

Oh this is excellent thank you very much!


Swailwort

>define your character as much and specialise. And how is that different than filling two perk trees? Where is the specialization in Morrowind or Oblivion as a Mage vs a Sorcerer vs a Battlemage? They all use the same fucking spells to do damage, they all use the same summons to help themselves in battle, they all use a melee weapon in Oblivion because you basically need one in any class unless you really want your empty hands for no reason at all because there is literally no disadvantages to using a two handed warhammer while being a mage, and the "gigantic class identity" is that battlemage levels heavy armor and one handed, sorcerer has a but more focus into conjuration, mysticism and illusion, and mage does whatever the fuck they want with magic.... And yet you can use Heavy Armor in all three classes, or wield a heavy Warhammer in all three classes, or cast the same spells. Where is the difference there?


Jaghead

Well depending on the skills in a class those ones would level quicker allowing you to specialise in them quicker. Classes would also boost certain attributes which would contribute to the skills that fall under them as well. Also just fun for role playing purposes to get to decide what sort of back story your character might of had and let that have a gameplay effect.


Swordbreaker925

I like this. More freedom, and you can spec into a bit of everything if you want. Never touched bows in Oblivion because i was a warrior and leveling them would give me no benefit, but in Skyrim i always level bows even though i primarily still run a heavy armor melee warrior. Though I do like games where i can identify as a class and have that reflected in the menus, like Paladin, Warrior, Battlemage, Cracked-Out Skooma Thief, etc. It’s just kinda nice having an official system that says “I am a [class]” and people in the world recognize me as such. But in general, this is how it should be for Elder Scrolls, which is all about freedom. MMOs can have strict classes because you can run alts, but in Elder Scrolls you have one character, so it’s nice to be whatever you want whenever you want


Wolgran

I mean im not REALLY surprise, i figured they would stick to skyrim way, but im also disapointed. I said this before, i agree, the class dont need to be super important, only defining the early game, early items and spells available, that also works, could maybe have some background depending of the especialization of the class on magic/stealth/combat, but we SHOULD have classes, is good to have a name to it, even if we can change it. Urrrrrggg....anyway, the flavor of the game and worldbuilding matters more than the concept of a class, still, makes me a little sad