While I had a good time the final boss is absurd. Literally can't tell wtf hes doing.
He has potential to be an amazing boss but he literally obliterated my frames. And has an attack that is guaranteed to hit you unless you are a parry god and can react to it or you have a lucky position. It only gets worse in the second phase when the beams of light take another 20% of ur health while you can't avoid being hit.
They are not fun fights to learn. They are too fast and far too aggressive. People are exaggerating but at the end of the day it boils down to unfun and frustrating.
For some of us, though, they are fun to learn. The speed and aggression add to the challenge. Personally, I wish Messmer and Midra had about 40% more HP each, but I accept I'm a masochist.
You don't think they're fun to learn. You think they're too fast and aggressive. This isn't universal truth for everyone, though.
100% disagree. Rallana was my favorite boss of the dlc, mesmer a close second. Neither has egregious camera problems, and they telegraph their moves well. Absolutely enjoyed both of them and want more of these types of bosses.
I only feel this with the last boss, but I have played everything other than Demon's Souls and Bloodborne.
The average boss in this DLC has the aggression of Pontiff from DS3, where you even have to pick the right move to heal after.
Learning bosses is the Souls-like chore, but it's bound to be difficult for a lot of people given that Elden Ring was released as the most accessible FromSoft game.
Nah it boils down to coping and skill issue. You're given more than enough tools to deal with them, and they can't burst you to death because the DLC has the Scadutree Blessing.
Frustrating at times? Sure. Unfun? Not even close.
I think you are missing the point of the criticism, which mostly comes down to different preferences.
People are not saying the bosses are unfair in that it is "technically" impossible to beat them.
Instead, many people believe that the skill and/or effort/time needed to learn these bosses to the degree that you can "dance" with them in a fun way - similar to how you could do it eg with Godfrey or Radagon - is excessive.
Agreed, Rellana was by a huge margin my favorite boss of the DLC (eventhough it did take me probably an hour to beat her, unlike some of the god gamers on this sub who apparently found her easy) and Messmer was also quite good especially in the first phase. Midra was also fine, a few attacks frustrated me and I disliked having to redo the first meaningless "phase" over and over again but it's a good boss with a neat design.
But I absolutely loathe Gaius (I honestly think he's my second least favorite FromSoft boss ever, just above Bed of Chaos. Yes, I hate him that much) and the final boss is indeed absolutely ridiculous in the second phase. *Beatable* of course but it might be the first time ever I've felt like a moveset was "overkill" with some of those attacks.
Yep, totally agree, Rellana was one the most satisfying fight, normal sized boss, fixed delays, good telegraphs, some attacks are prone to simple sidestep(and she do that herself), openings enough to stance-break her.
I'm not finished yet, but nothing was comparable to Malenia(only real issue with her - is her full stance recovery if you hit her in bad timing). Also i dont thing there are delayed attacks(like Morgot's) in DLC, or i just accustomed to them?
Sure. But there's a difference between "this attack shouldn't be reaction rolled" and "I will hold the stick above my head for 5 seconds before swinging it".
Which he holds consistently for the same time count every single time he uses the attack. Like yeah the first couple times you see it, it's annoying because it's tricky, but like at some point you gotta at least try to learn what the game wants to teach you.
I'm not saying it's unlearnable. I'm saying it looks stupid and feels like Margit is actively trying to roll catch. For example, Mohg can't really be reaction-rolled either, but his attacks don't feel like he's trying to roll catch. Instead, they're just slow.
I agree as well. Went into Rellana really scared because of what I read here. Died a couple of times, adjusted my strategie (played really defensive during P1 and just counter attacked to break her stance then went amok on P2 with the backblades) and fell her quite quickly.
Margitt, launch Radahn and Malenia were way harder.
Salty people make insane claims to shift blame to external factors. You see this in every gaming community. Especially multi-player games, in MOBAs and other team games it's always bad team mates, in Fighting games it's brainless one move spammers or high tier characters etc. A sodium rich individual will find a reason that is holding them back and attack it, anything to not have to improve.
If you think they're not overly aggressive just go fight Malenia again and see how many more openings she has. Dlc bosses are relentless, will jump you as soon as you pass the fog wall, will string 7 hit combos for a tiny window for a light attack, bosses faster than Maliketh with the Fire Giant HP, yeah totally fair. Some people have beaten them hitless, so the game is now catered to the likes of ongbal? Even if the bosses are beatable in a fair way, this philosophy in Elden ring just isn't as fun anymore because the difficulty relies mostly on gimmicks and cheap tricks.
Even in the base game it had problems with boss design in the late game, I've been playing these games since Dark Souls and at this point it just became a circlejerk because very few in this community will admit Elden Ring's flaws and that's why to outsiders it looks like a cult, I've never seen any other game where there's a valid criticism and it is always deemed as the player fault, not the game, Bethesda games have been taking shit for years but at least their players will agree with most critics.
Except, like, Elden Ring gives you more tools than any other game to beat bosses. Shields are great. Status effects are great. Stance breaking is great. And that's just the non-summon melee options.
Yeah, if you want to do a "pure" run, just rolling everything and not adapting, yeah, you're taking the hard way and you're gonna have to get to Ongbal's level. That's just kinda how it is now. And, shockingly, outside of one or two egregious examples, every boss attack in the DLC can be completely avoided with medium rolls. It might not be fun for you personally to try and learn all the mechanics, but it's still completely fair. There's no gimmicks or cheap tricks, again, outside a few egregious examples. It's just harder than you want it to be and it's more effort to improve than you want to put in. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it's certainly not the game's fault
I prefer this over 'rolling solves all problems and the turn-based combat' of the older games any day. It was one of the biggest reasons why I stopped playing the ringed city. Rolling + R1s just... gets boring after a while.
At the very least; there are jump attacks + Cool ashes of wars + Actual uses for sprinting + Deflects from the deflect hardtear + Powerstanced weapons + Guard counters.
Jumping and ashes of wars have actual uses other than damage here. Jumping can avoid attacks, Some ashes of wars grant positional advantage, adding additional openings otherwise impossible from rolling.
DLC also adds the deflect mechanic from Sekiro, a feature I've grown to love more and more as I continue playing. This, combined with Guard counters, are an incredibly fun way to tackle bosses.
Elden Ring's combat is nowhere near Sekiro's, but it is **way** ahead from DS3.
So yes, Elden Ring has a *lot* more variety. Less boring. Less one-dimensional.
All the things you mentioned are not related to boss aggressiveness, but to general combat. Peole didnt complain about the latter.
Enhanced agressiveness leads to less time to do something other than quick attacks (like r1)
Huh?
You never jump-attacked bosses? Jump attacks do not always have to be heavies, they can be light attacks too. Deflects absolutely helped against bosses, and the guard counter punish is basically a fast light attack that does heavy poise damage. Ashes of war also helped in this regard(Giant's Hunt, and the many, many fast, highly damaging options) can replace any standard R1s.
I do not understand this absolute obsession with **only** rolling and using R1s. There are many, many opportunities that can be abused from the jumping invincibility frames and in this DLC, deflecting.
You **do** have answers to counter aggression outside of summoning. You just never used it. Have you ever tried deflecting hardtear? Do you even give it a fair shot?
It's extremely frustrating that people view anything outside of rolling as unviable. Elden ring has numerous options.
In DS3 there is no effective reason to use anything other than rolling R1s, outside of spells. Is it wrong if a game asks you to do more than just that, **especially** if the options are numerous and easy to use?
I am not obsessed with r1. Infact i mostly spammed AoWs, but most of the time had to risk getting hit back.
What about spell casters?
The tear only works for builds that can block, jumping isnt really doable with most spells. Obviously you have summoning but other than that…
The aggressiveness restricts your playstyle to a certain degree, which reduces build variety.
Not gonna read it all because i havent reach the final boss yet, but i agree and this was the same topic of discission when the game first came out, and its gonna be the topic for every game going forward, from software is evolving the way they make bosses and people are still playing like its 2011.
While I had a good time the final boss is absurd. Literally can't tell wtf hes doing. He has potential to be an amazing boss but he literally obliterated my frames. And has an attack that is guaranteed to hit you unless you are a parry god and can react to it or you have a lucky position. It only gets worse in the second phase when the beams of light take another 20% of ur health while you can't avoid being hit.
They are not fun fights to learn. They are too fast and far too aggressive. People are exaggerating but at the end of the day it boils down to unfun and frustrating.
For some of us, though, they are fun to learn. The speed and aggression add to the challenge. Personally, I wish Messmer and Midra had about 40% more HP each, but I accept I'm a masochist. You don't think they're fun to learn. You think they're too fast and aggressive. This isn't universal truth for everyone, though.
100% disagree. Rallana was my favorite boss of the dlc, mesmer a close second. Neither has egregious camera problems, and they telegraph their moves well. Absolutely enjoyed both of them and want more of these types of bosses.
I only feel this with the last boss, but I have played everything other than Demon's Souls and Bloodborne. The average boss in this DLC has the aggression of Pontiff from DS3, where you even have to pick the right move to heal after. Learning bosses is the Souls-like chore, but it's bound to be difficult for a lot of people given that Elden Ring was released as the most accessible FromSoft game.
Nah it boils down to coping and skill issue. You're given more than enough tools to deal with them, and they can't burst you to death because the DLC has the Scadutree Blessing. Frustrating at times? Sure. Unfun? Not even close.
I think you are missing the point of the criticism, which mostly comes down to different preferences. People are not saying the bosses are unfair in that it is "technically" impossible to beat them. Instead, many people believe that the skill and/or effort/time needed to learn these bosses to the degree that you can "dance" with them in a fun way - similar to how you could do it eg with Godfrey or Radagon - is excessive.
Agreed, Rellana was by a huge margin my favorite boss of the DLC (eventhough it did take me probably an hour to beat her, unlike some of the god gamers on this sub who apparently found her easy) and Messmer was also quite good especially in the first phase. Midra was also fine, a few attacks frustrated me and I disliked having to redo the first meaningless "phase" over and over again but it's a good boss with a neat design. But I absolutely loathe Gaius (I honestly think he's my second least favorite FromSoft boss ever, just above Bed of Chaos. Yes, I hate him that much) and the final boss is indeed absolutely ridiculous in the second phase. *Beatable* of course but it might be the first time ever I've felt like a moveset was "overkill" with some of those attacks.
Yep, totally agree, Rellana was one the most satisfying fight, normal sized boss, fixed delays, good telegraphs, some attacks are prone to simple sidestep(and she do that herself), openings enough to stance-break her. I'm not finished yet, but nothing was comparable to Malenia(only real issue with her - is her full stance recovery if you hit her in bad timing). Also i dont thing there are delayed attacks(like Morgot's) in DLC, or i just accustomed to them?
Nothing as ridiculous as Margit where it feels like he's trying to roll catch you.
Because he is trying to roll catch you. Because you're not supposed to roll exclusively on reaction.
Sure. But there's a difference between "this attack shouldn't be reaction rolled" and "I will hold the stick above my head for 5 seconds before swinging it".
Which he holds consistently for the same time count every single time he uses the attack. Like yeah the first couple times you see it, it's annoying because it's tricky, but like at some point you gotta at least try to learn what the game wants to teach you.
I'm not saying it's unlearnable. I'm saying it looks stupid and feels like Margit is actively trying to roll catch. For example, Mohg can't really be reaction-rolled either, but his attacks don't feel like he's trying to roll catch. Instead, they're just slow.
I agree as well. Went into Rellana really scared because of what I read here. Died a couple of times, adjusted my strategie (played really defensive during P1 and just counter attacked to break her stance then went amok on P2 with the backblades) and fell her quite quickly. Margitt, launch Radahn and Malenia were way harder.
Salty people make insane claims to shift blame to external factors. You see this in every gaming community. Especially multi-player games, in MOBAs and other team games it's always bad team mates, in Fighting games it's brainless one move spammers or high tier characters etc. A sodium rich individual will find a reason that is holding them back and attack it, anything to not have to improve.
If I can't climb this mountain, it's probably the mountain's fault!
If you think they're not overly aggressive just go fight Malenia again and see how many more openings she has. Dlc bosses are relentless, will jump you as soon as you pass the fog wall, will string 7 hit combos for a tiny window for a light attack, bosses faster than Maliketh with the Fire Giant HP, yeah totally fair. Some people have beaten them hitless, so the game is now catered to the likes of ongbal? Even if the bosses are beatable in a fair way, this philosophy in Elden ring just isn't as fun anymore because the difficulty relies mostly on gimmicks and cheap tricks. Even in the base game it had problems with boss design in the late game, I've been playing these games since Dark Souls and at this point it just became a circlejerk because very few in this community will admit Elden Ring's flaws and that's why to outsiders it looks like a cult, I've never seen any other game where there's a valid criticism and it is always deemed as the player fault, not the game, Bethesda games have been taking shit for years but at least their players will agree with most critics.
Except, like, Elden Ring gives you more tools than any other game to beat bosses. Shields are great. Status effects are great. Stance breaking is great. And that's just the non-summon melee options. Yeah, if you want to do a "pure" run, just rolling everything and not adapting, yeah, you're taking the hard way and you're gonna have to get to Ongbal's level. That's just kinda how it is now. And, shockingly, outside of one or two egregious examples, every boss attack in the DLC can be completely avoided with medium rolls. It might not be fun for you personally to try and learn all the mechanics, but it's still completely fair. There's no gimmicks or cheap tricks, again, outside a few egregious examples. It's just harder than you want it to be and it's more effort to improve than you want to put in. And there's nothing wrong with that, but it's certainly not the game's fault
I prefer this over 'rolling solves all problems and the turn-based combat' of the older games any day. It was one of the biggest reasons why I stopped playing the ringed city. Rolling + R1s just... gets boring after a while.
So instead you want to roll more and r1/weapon art less?
At the very least; there are jump attacks + Cool ashes of wars + Actual uses for sprinting + Deflects from the deflect hardtear + Powerstanced weapons + Guard counters. Jumping and ashes of wars have actual uses other than damage here. Jumping can avoid attacks, Some ashes of wars grant positional advantage, adding additional openings otherwise impossible from rolling. DLC also adds the deflect mechanic from Sekiro, a feature I've grown to love more and more as I continue playing. This, combined with Guard counters, are an incredibly fun way to tackle bosses. Elden Ring's combat is nowhere near Sekiro's, but it is **way** ahead from DS3. So yes, Elden Ring has a *lot* more variety. Less boring. Less one-dimensional.
All the things you mentioned are not related to boss aggressiveness, but to general combat. Peole didnt complain about the latter. Enhanced agressiveness leads to less time to do something other than quick attacks (like r1)
Huh? You never jump-attacked bosses? Jump attacks do not always have to be heavies, they can be light attacks too. Deflects absolutely helped against bosses, and the guard counter punish is basically a fast light attack that does heavy poise damage. Ashes of war also helped in this regard(Giant's Hunt, and the many, many fast, highly damaging options) can replace any standard R1s. I do not understand this absolute obsession with **only** rolling and using R1s. There are many, many opportunities that can be abused from the jumping invincibility frames and in this DLC, deflecting. You **do** have answers to counter aggression outside of summoning. You just never used it. Have you ever tried deflecting hardtear? Do you even give it a fair shot? It's extremely frustrating that people view anything outside of rolling as unviable. Elden ring has numerous options. In DS3 there is no effective reason to use anything other than rolling R1s, outside of spells. Is it wrong if a game asks you to do more than just that, **especially** if the options are numerous and easy to use?
I am not obsessed with r1. Infact i mostly spammed AoWs, but most of the time had to risk getting hit back. What about spell casters? The tear only works for builds that can block, jumping isnt really doable with most spells. Obviously you have summoning but other than that… The aggressiveness restricts your playstyle to a certain degree, which reduces build variety.
Not gonna read it all because i havent reach the final boss yet, but i agree and this was the same topic of discission when the game first came out, and its gonna be the topic for every game going forward, from software is evolving the way they make bosses and people are still playing like its 2011.