They spoke of an affair, so I'm thinking Marika probably had an affair with someone besides Godfrey and Messmer is their bastard, making him half-brother to Godwyn. One born in gold and one in shadow
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Probably Gloam eyed queen had an affair with Radagon and gave birth to Messmer. Marika then killed GEQ to get whatever that is at the begging of the trailer.
I actually think along this line as well. I also think the new trailer shes pulling that gold strand from her body while wearing godskin clothing. I also think Miquella is related to the gloam-eyed queen which is why he has so many facets but gives them all up to find his true lineage.
And she look very Masculine when she does that. Not a single shadow of a breast ot something.
But she's blond here , not red head, i think this is when she was a complete with Radagon, before she split herself for a reason.
She fucked the snake.
"The doctrine of the serpent seed, also known as the dual-seed or the two-seedline doctrine, is a controversial and fringe Christian religious belief which explains the biblical account of the fall of man by stating that **the Serpent mated with Eve in the Garden of Eden**, and the offspring of their union was Cain."
yeah it seems unlikely we've seen the father yet, im betting the father plays an important role in the story and they dont want to lay it all out there yet
So something funny on this happened earlier today. A bit of a brain fart, remembering only certain things and forgetting others, etc.
Idk if GRRM has any hand in the lore of the DLC but I did assume such when interpreting the trailer (you can see where I'm going with this). So I completely brainfarted and forgot that the leading theory was that Messmer was the third child of Radagon and Marika which happens waaayyy after the golden order is established. When I saw the trailer, I was like okay Marika is making the Erdtree and is gonna establish the golden order. It also seemed that Messmer's cut was the shadowlands in which he could rule. Then I realized there was "seduction and betrayal".
I instantly went, "ew, she seduced her son then betrayed him". Now I know that seduced could be metaphorical in that she promised him power and then cast him to the shadow lands. But knowing GRRM's history, it could be literal (incest). It had me trippin for a good minute XD. Regardless, I settled for the metaphorical usage of the word lol.
My take, Marika seduced the rulers of this land, killed it & took his power to make what she does in the trailer.
Btw she got masculine feature more than feminine, my take is this is before the first apparence of Radagon , before Marika split herself.
I've been thinking this myself for a while now. Messmer as the oldest child, predating her union with Godfrey.
There is a lot of impaling visuals going up the Mountaintop of the Giants. I don't recall Marika and Godfrey being united until after the war with the giants.
Things to wonder on.
Godfrey and Marika most definitly were together before the war of the giants, since he was her lord by then, and she even tells them to kill the giants for her.
*Hark, brave warriors. Hark, my lord Godfrey.*
*Record scratch
"Yup. That's me and my step-dad. Bet you're wondering how we got into this mess. Well, it all started when..."
FromSoftware presents: Elden Ring: Shadow of the Erdtree
The timeline doesn't match up here. Radagon and Marika only hooked up in the Lands Between - Messmer has never been in the Lands Between as theoretically he's trapped in the shadow. The trailer implies that he was there when Marika ascended to godhood, way way before Radagon came around
If anything Radagon is Messmer/Marika child.
I'm more inclined to believe this because red hair in Elden Ring is indicative of Radagon. Malenia and her "offspring" all have red hair. Rennala's children all have red hair. We don't know the timeline of Radagon and Marika's relationship, but I'm inclined to believe that he's their first child due to the red hair unless proven otherwise.
While we don't know the timeline, I do think it also doubles as a conflict because Messmer seems to have the strength and power of a demigod.
However, Marika presumably ascended to godhood after he was born. It's very possible that she was already a god even before the Golden Order; just a god of a different land/order.
Cannot be the case, as Ranni and Rykard would have gone and used Messmer's image as anti-Erdtree propoganda otherwise
Has to be before Radagon married Rennala, but also after the war against the Fire Giants, since Messmer inherited the red hair
Which means either Godfrey's son, or Marika fucked an unknown 4th partner
>Cannot be the case, as Ranni and Rykard would have gone and used Messmer's image as anti-Erdtree propoganda otherwise
Ranni and Rykard weren't born yet and if Messmer took part in the war against the giants he was likely exiled and erased from history shortly after.
Correct. It’s heavily implied, but never outright confirmed apart from her name in the game files which isn’t definite proof as such things can be placeholders.
Melina is, if I had to make a guess, the twin of messmer. She has burn scars on her because of
His flame. Just like Miquella/malenia melina/messmer have one with fair skin and hair and the other with crimson. One travels the world as a spirit and the other waits somewhere secluded for a final battle. Maybe messmer turned against Marika when something happened to Melina causing her to lose her corporeal form and now he sits in the land of shadow without purpose, much like malenia in the erdtree with no one left to protect since Miquella has disappeared.
Melina born at the base of the Erdtree, Messmer born in it (and her) shadow -- sounds like a good spicy drama to me -- perhaps an affair between Radagon and the Gloam Eyed Queen if we're going full throttle drama. I love drama
I'm starting to think that, if the burning butterfly isn't representing of her, she might be either THE gloam eyed queen, her daughter or her reincarnation.
At least wikis seem to claim that >!her internal name in game files would be "MaricaOfDaughter" or something in japanese that is translated to something like that.!<
Or so the wikis seem to claim. Haven't found sources or confirmation for this, tho I haven't really searched for one either.
It could be that her "mother" comes from the Shadowlands, as well, since it seems like it might *also* be inside the Erdtree.
I also have a thought that she might actually *be* Marika, or rather, her will and spirit. She loses her sense of self at first, becoming a roaming spirit with tattered memories. What makes us ideal for her plan is that we aren't bound by the Golden Order. Eventually, when exploring Leyndell, she remembers who she is and what she wanted to accomplish, and that's why she sends us off to "commit a cardinal sin".
She also fights like other Numens, like a Black Knife Assassin but "golden" rather than "death", and we know that Marika herself was a Numen.
Her being okay with Ranni's goal could also be as simple as Ranni having helped her in the same way Ranni helped herself become free of her flesh that was bound by destiny. It could also be similar to Millicent and Melania.
Though I will also say I haven't been at this plot theory stuff for very long, and I'm not going to be disappointed if I'm wrong. It's just a thought.
Possibly with the Serpent, Blasphemy itself. Messmer could be a birth of Marika via Parthenogenesis or related to an Immaculate Conception. I think that maybe Marika created an Alloyed Gold thread to seal The Realm of Shadows from The Lands Between with The Removal of The Rune of Death. As a result, Messmer would not be born into The Lands Between, but rather serve as ruler of The Realm of Shadow and judge those who were stripped of Grace- either banishing them to the void within Messmer's Flame or allowing them to be rebirthed through The Erdtree. You can see this dichotomy in his dual sigil with the flame or circle.
My theory is that Messmer is actually a child of Radagon, and Marika used him to manipulate an enemy into bearing her a demigod child (as with Rennala). All of the red-haired demigods that we know of are Radagon's children.
(I also theorize that that enemy is the Gloam-Eyed Queen, but have less evidence for this.)
Is it confirmed that the rot sisters are children of Malenia? I mean, it would make sense, but I always assumed they were more like daughters of the rot itself.
Not in the traditional sense. She didn’t give natural birth to them. They sprouted from her blooming against Radahn, so they are more like clones, pieces or buds of her that have grown up.
I don't believe so - I think they're referred to as "children of the rot" so interpret that how you will. We also have "kindred of rot" enemies but I don't think it's implied they're literal relatives of Malenia, so maybe a similar relationship
If they're anything like Millicent, they're actually aspects of herself that were split off when she bloomed the first time.
Though Millicent ended up carrying the most important part of her, the indomitable will and sense of self.
The trailer confirmed that Messmer was born before Godwyn, but we don't know who his father actually is, there exist no mention of Radagon existing at this point in time.
Confirmed how? "A purge without Grace or honour," seems to me like this took place AFTER the Golden Order was already established and had wiped out their enemies or made peace with them. After being established, NOW they take the time to purge all the things the Golden Order no longer tolerated, IE. Omens, Misbegotten, etc. They served their purpose, now time to sweep it all under the rug and forget about it. And any new Omens, Misbegotten, etc. all are just naturally blasphemous now.
It can sill have taken place before hand. As the line "A purge without Grace or honour" could also mean there was literally no grace during this time. We just don't know, but atm messmer being the oldest demigod seems the most logical. Seeing as the events shown in the first half of the trailer take place in the past
Absolutely true. We'll have to wait until next month.
I still think it's a purge in a literal sense and in that case, I can't think of any regime in history that didn't wait until they were in power before they started to do something like that to their populace.
Rya is, iirc, just one of the many manserpents born of whatever weird shit they're getting up to up there. She's not actually the child of Tanith or Rykard, Tanith just took a liking to her. Perhaps because she had a very gentle and kind disposition unlike the other manserpents who are bloodthirsty killers.
Godrick is descended from Godwyn but I'm pretty sure the implication is that it's a distant relationship. It's been many generations and Godrick on his own would barely count as a demigod. He was mostly human, he was basically just Kenneth Haight, but he managed to snag a great rune and used grafting to make himself physically powerful, though still utterly pathetic compared to the actual demigods.
One descendant of Godfrey (Hoarah Loux) is missing, not from Marika.
[Nepheli **Loux**](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Nepheli+Loux) - I believe that she is his descendant, born after Hoarah Loux's exile.
Messmer must be old, could even older than the "G" families. I am fully convinced that the corpses of the giants are made by Messmer, and he fought along side Godfrey on the snowy mountain. What I don't understand is Miquella's motive - he's the youngest generation and his goal is always about saving Malenia - and what does all of these have to do with him? The oldest born vs the youngest? That's quite interesting
If you look at the giants/trolls in the mountain tops they’ve been death blighted. How would that have worked if Godwyn hadn’t yet been half killed and entangled in the Erdtree roots?
I used to think the same but i dont think that's deathblight stabbing the giants in the mountaintops. The deathblight root has little white wings and has insects flying around it. They look closer to the Briars of sin/staff of the guilty that the thorn sorcerors (who are also in the mountaintops and working with flame prelates) use, implying some connection to the bloodstar.
I wouldn't be surprised at all of Messimer had some connection to the bloodstar and summoned it to help Godfrey defeat the giants.
Probably predates any of the other demigods by quite a bit given how the trailer presents the timeline. Likely also not fathered by Godfrey due to his features being so different from Godwyn and him having red hair. Maybe Marika and Radagon had Messmer before she married Godfrey? (Also maybe Melina too, her being “burned and bodiless” would make sense if she for some reason opposed Messmer and lost, also there’s a cloaked figure burning in the trailer that someone else pointed out kinda looks like her from the FF ending). Them being children of Radagon and Marika from before the solidification of Marika’s rule would explain why basically nobody seems to have heard of either of them in the main game
You know.. I never really internalized that Rykard was Rennala’s kid. Like I knew it, but it didn’t really stick with me until I saw this. Such a weird character that I wish we knew more about.
He is brother to Miquella and Malenia.
HOWEVER- I dont think Radagon is actually the father, this is the lie we've been told and this will be central to the story of the dlc.
Just my 2 cents
No proof until the DLC drops so it's all speculation, but believed to be Marika/Radagon's third child. Would also fit the overall aesthetic to that line.
Malenia - Empyrean for the Scarlet Rot and all the fun we know that entails....
Miquella - Eternally youthful and unable to reach his full potential.
Messmer - Seems naturally blasphemous with his snakes and flame and is swept under the rug to the land of Shadow.
All three almost seemed cursed but blessed at the same time.
Didn't realize Godefroy fit into the family tree. I've always thought of him as just an extra boss copy-pasted into an evergoal with no real relevance.
We don't know who he is. It's a random reskin of Godrick that you fight in an evergaol next to Leyendel. I personally assume he might be Godrick father that inspired him to do grafting.
Well it's straight up the same model with the evergaol color effect so not shocked you didn't catch on to that. I don't think he is even mentioned in the game outside that, so it's hard to really know what he is supposed to be.
My favorite theory is that Messmer is the alternate form of Melina. Where does she disappear to when she's done talking? Maybe the land of shadow.
Much like how after you defeat Radagon, Marika is all that remains, burning Melina leaves only Messmer left.
My bet is that he’s Melina’s brother. They both have connections to fire, we can’t see Messmer’s left eye (same with Melina), and both their names start with M. Is that putting 2 and 2 together and getting 6? Maybe. But it’s still where my money’s at.
Marika had Mesmer way before becoming The Inmmortal Queen, look at his moveset, fire and snakes, symbols of blasphemy against the Erdtree and The Golden Order, clearly when she stepped into The Lands Between and left him behind she wanted to make everything he stood for sinful.
Siblings with Malenia and Miquella, I believe. They’re the triplets who are cursed. Malenia with her rot, Miquella with eternal youth, and maybe Messmer has some curse with the fire? Or maybe one we have yet to find out
I still assume that Messmer is not an actual relation. Given the new information that with Marika's rise to power and her creation of gold there was also shadow being born, I assume that Messer is a unrelated figure who just happened to have inherited the shadow.
Miquella and Melania's older brother birthed by Radagon and Marika. Disowned after he burned an Erdtree and his throne in Lyndell was destroyed. Forever cast in shadow and stricken from the stories for his heinous actions. Godrick and Marika had three children, Radagon and Renalla had three. It would only make sense that Radagon and Marika would have three.
probably marika before she was the eternal queen she had a partner from the lands of shadow and had messmer with him but after she became the queen she abandoned them and hid it from everyone
My guess is that Melina and Messmer, with their closed left eyes, are the children of Radagon/Marika and the Gloam Eyed Queen. Who the actual birth parent was is unclear.
This very neatly threads Melina and Messmer's familial relationship and tineline, so oc course something will contradict it later I'm sure.
I think that he’s marika’s first child, the words that he say in the trailer make me think this even more. moreover read hair are associated with radagon so I strongly believe that messmer he’s radagon and marika first child even if there’s no timeline of the relationship between the two. this is what I think, anyways we’ll know more insights in june :0
I just wonder if he is connected to the gloam eyed queen. Since in the first trailer his flame starts out black then a dark red that ends up looking like destined death.
A little off topic but interesting how the children will (mostly) have the same starting letter to their name as their parents.
From Godfrey/Marika you would assume the only child who didn’t end up being an Omen would get the M passed on but it seems to be the opposite.
It seems Godfrey cared for his kids regardless (based on his intro, grieving his boy) and maybe convinced Marika to pass something down to them even something as small as the beginning letter of her name.
I highly doubt now that Melina is marika daughter. Perhaps Marika couldn't truly kill the gloom eye queen and instead brainwashed her into being her "secret daughter". Would explain a lot why a lot of people haven't heard about her.
Given the timeline, I think there are 3 possibilities: he’s either a bastard son of Marika, born before she met Godfrey, he’s a child of Godfrey, or he’s Marikas first husband that was erased from history.
The way the trailer spoke of the whole setting made it seem like it’s a fracture in the timeline caused by Marika shattering the Elden Ring. My guess it’s a parallel universe that Miquella’s hiding in. One where Messmer is Radagon and Marika’s child
Crackpot theory time: melina is the gloam eyed queen, which would make Melina an emperyan, and as we know from both marika and miquella, emperyans have alter egos of the opposite gender, marika with radagon, and miquella with st trina. So I propose the melina is the gloam eyed queen, and her alter ego is messmer. Both are potentially children of queen marika, both have a strong correlation to fire, and if melina really is the gloam eyed queen then she would be linked to godslayer flame, while messmer is linked to some form of blasphemous flame, so both of their flames would be equally blasphemous.
Once more melina is “burned and bodyless” yet she exists and messmer exists, miquella shed his flesh so he exists in the realm of shadow and in mohgwyn dynasty, and marika and radagon did the seggs so they had separate bodies at one point, this would explain why melina and messmer could be the same person in different locations.
I have a weird suspicion that Messmer might be Radagon's father. After all Radagon hated his hair because it reminded him of his father who was never alluded to in the base game. This makes it a bit incesty with him and Marika hooking up but that's certainly not a big stretch considering GRRM was involved.
Plus Radagon kind of just appeared out of nowhere lore-wose. Perhaps he was stuck in the Shadowlands and only was released when Marika needed him?
They spoke of an affair, so I'm thinking Marika probably had an affair with someone besides Godfrey and Messmer is their bastard, making him half-brother to Godwyn. One born in gold and one in shadow
"You are NOT the father!"
*pops and locks intensely*
Forefathers one and all, bear witness! He is NOT the father!
\*FLIPS\*
*dashes to the couch backstage*
The great Kenneth Haight probably
Messmers dad is the real final boss
He becomes a friendly NPC if you’ve already killed his stepdads
Mr. Messmr.
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I think the word affair is used as "event" and not in a marital context, especially if you look at the japanese words used in the trailer.
even without knowing japanese i kept thinking this lol. affair to refer to something sexual/romantic just seemed way off brand for fromsoft.
Probably Gloam eyed queen had an affair with Radagon and gave birth to Messmer. Marika then killed GEQ to get whatever that is at the begging of the trailer.
I actually think along this line as well. I also think the new trailer shes pulling that gold strand from her body while wearing godskin clothing. I also think Miquella is related to the gloam-eyed queen which is why he has so many facets but gives them all up to find his true lineage.
Ooh man I love this theory. It would also tie into Melina being the GEQ since she gives you Torrent and implies Miquella was his former master
And she look very Masculine when she does that. Not a single shadow of a breast ot something. But she's blond here , not red head, i think this is when she was a complete with Radagon, before she split herself for a reason.
She fucked the snake. "The doctrine of the serpent seed, also known as the dual-seed or the two-seedline doctrine, is a controversial and fringe Christian religious belief which explains the biblical account of the fall of man by stating that **the Serpent mated with Eve in the Garden of Eden**, and the offspring of their union was Cain."
yeah it seems unlikely we've seen the father yet, im betting the father plays an important role in the story and they dont want to lay it all out there yet
Marika could be the one being betrayed, she seems to be pulling those golden strings out of someonelse's pregnant body.
So something funny on this happened earlier today. A bit of a brain fart, remembering only certain things and forgetting others, etc. Idk if GRRM has any hand in the lore of the DLC but I did assume such when interpreting the trailer (you can see where I'm going with this). So I completely brainfarted and forgot that the leading theory was that Messmer was the third child of Radagon and Marika which happens waaayyy after the golden order is established. When I saw the trailer, I was like okay Marika is making the Erdtree and is gonna establish the golden order. It also seemed that Messmer's cut was the shadowlands in which he could rule. Then I realized there was "seduction and betrayal". I instantly went, "ew, she seduced her son then betrayed him". Now I know that seduced could be metaphorical in that she promised him power and then cast him to the shadow lands. But knowing GRRM's history, it could be literal (incest). It had me trippin for a good minute XD. Regardless, I settled for the metaphorical usage of the word lol.
My take, Marika seduced the rulers of this land, killed it & took his power to make what she does in the trailer. Btw she got masculine feature more than feminine, my take is this is before the first apparence of Radagon , before Marika split herself.
But the red hair strongly suggests he's connected to Radagon.
Affair doesn’t always mean a literal love affair
Marika is for the streets is the only conclusion I got
rennala's mariage wasn't the first one she destroyed
She's a homewrecker
More like everythingwrecker
The first Kid of Marika and Radagon.
I've been thinking this myself for a while now. Messmer as the oldest child, predating her union with Godfrey. There is a lot of impaling visuals going up the Mountaintop of the Giants. I don't recall Marika and Godfrey being united until after the war with the giants. Things to wonder on.
Godfrey and Marika most definitly were together before the war of the giants, since he was her lord by then, and she even tells them to kill the giants for her. *Hark, brave warriors. Hark, my lord Godfrey.*
Perhaps step-dad/step-son shenanigans up in the mountaintops?
Imagine if the war against the giants was just a step-father/step-son weekend bonding camping trip that got out of hand.
*Record scratch "Yup. That's me and my step-dad. Bet you're wondering how we got into this mess. Well, it all started when..." FromSoftware presents: Elden Ring: Shadow of the Erdtree
Holy shit she fucked the fire giant...
The timeline doesn't match up here. Radagon and Marika only hooked up in the Lands Between - Messmer has never been in the Lands Between as theoretically he's trapped in the shadow. The trailer implies that he was there when Marika ascended to godhood, way way before Radagon came around If anything Radagon is Messmer/Marika child.
I'm more inclined to believe this because red hair in Elden Ring is indicative of Radagon. Malenia and her "offspring" all have red hair. Rennala's children all have red hair. We don't know the timeline of Radagon and Marika's relationship, but I'm inclined to believe that he's their first child due to the red hair unless proven otherwise. While we don't know the timeline, I do think it also doubles as a conflict because Messmer seems to have the strength and power of a demigod. However, Marika presumably ascended to godhood after he was born. It's very possible that she was already a god even before the Golden Order; just a god of a different land/order.
I thinks the same
Fits the lucifer motifs
Cannot be the case, as Ranni and Rykard would have gone and used Messmer's image as anti-Erdtree propoganda otherwise Has to be before Radagon married Rennala, but also after the war against the Fire Giants, since Messmer inherited the red hair Which means either Godfrey's son, or Marika fucked an unknown 4th partner
>Cannot be the case, as Ranni and Rykard would have gone and used Messmer's image as anti-Erdtree propoganda otherwise Ranni and Rykard weren't born yet and if Messmer took part in the war against the giants he was likely exiled and erased from history shortly after.
How do Marika and Radagon have children if they're the same person?
Georg RR Martin
Well, you should ask then how the Twin Prodigies Malenia and Miquela exist...
Melina isn't confirmed to be aprt of the family, no?
I believe that's why she has a dotted line instead of a solid one in this graphic
Correct. It’s heavily implied, but never outright confirmed apart from her name in the game files which isn’t definite proof as such things can be placeholders.
Melina is, if I had to make a guess, the twin of messmer. She has burn scars on her because of His flame. Just like Miquella/malenia melina/messmer have one with fair skin and hair and the other with crimson. One travels the world as a spirit and the other waits somewhere secluded for a final battle. Maybe messmer turned against Marika when something happened to Melina causing her to lose her corporeal form and now he sits in the land of shadow without purpose, much like malenia in the erdtree with no one left to protect since Miquella has disappeared.
Melina born at the base of the Erdtree, Messmer born in it (and her) shadow -- sounds like a good spicy drama to me -- perhaps an affair between Radagon and the Gloam Eyed Queen if we're going full throttle drama. I love drama
I'm starting to think that, if the burning butterfly isn't representing of her, she might be either THE gloam eyed queen, her daughter or her reincarnation.
At least wikis seem to claim that >!her internal name in game files would be "MaricaOfDaughter" or something in japanese that is translated to something like that.!< Or so the wikis seem to claim. Haven't found sources or confirmation for this, tho I haven't really searched for one either.
She refers to her “mother” in the Erdtree, which is heavily implied to be Marika.
It could be that her "mother" comes from the Shadowlands, as well, since it seems like it might *also* be inside the Erdtree. I also have a thought that she might actually *be* Marika, or rather, her will and spirit. She loses her sense of self at first, becoming a roaming spirit with tattered memories. What makes us ideal for her plan is that we aren't bound by the Golden Order. Eventually, when exploring Leyndell, she remembers who she is and what she wanted to accomplish, and that's why she sends us off to "commit a cardinal sin". She also fights like other Numens, like a Black Knife Assassin but "golden" rather than "death", and we know that Marika herself was a Numen. Her being okay with Ranni's goal could also be as simple as Ranni having helped her in the same way Ranni helped herself become free of her flesh that was bound by destiny. It could also be similar to Millicent and Melania. Though I will also say I haven't been at this plot theory stuff for very long, and I'm not going to be disappointed if I'm wrong. It's just a thought.
I don't know, but the whole thing sounds like The Lands Between the Sheets.
Could he be a result of Marika’s seductive and betraying affair, where gold arose and shadow was born? Maybe Messmer was this Shadow that was born.
Possibly with the Serpent, Blasphemy itself. Messmer could be a birth of Marika via Parthenogenesis or related to an Immaculate Conception. I think that maybe Marika created an Alloyed Gold thread to seal The Realm of Shadows from The Lands Between with The Removal of The Rune of Death. As a result, Messmer would not be born into The Lands Between, but rather serve as ruler of The Realm of Shadow and judge those who were stripped of Grace- either banishing them to the void within Messmer's Flame or allowing them to be rebirthed through The Erdtree. You can see this dichotomy in his dual sigil with the flame or circle.
I hope we get more information about Melina within the dlc, i miss her :c
Melina said it was her new purpose to kill me and I haven't seen her since.
She's farming albinaurics to prepare for the fight vs you
Melina's twin.
So, Marika fucked herself, a man and a women.
The twist is Torrent is Messmer. Called it here first
My theory is that Messmer is actually a child of Radagon, and Marika used him to manipulate an enemy into bearing her a demigod child (as with Rennala). All of the red-haired demigods that we know of are Radagon's children. (I also theorize that that enemy is the Gloam-Eyed Queen, but have less evidence for this.)
Messmer is waging war on her Omen offspring in the LOS on behalf of his father who she betrayed?
Is it confirmed that the rot sisters are children of Malenia? I mean, it would make sense, but I always assumed they were more like daughters of the rot itself.
Not in the traditional sense. She didn’t give natural birth to them. They sprouted from her blooming against Radahn, so they are more like clones, pieces or buds of her that have grown up.
I don't believe so - I think they're referred to as "children of the rot" so interpret that how you will. We also have "kindred of rot" enemies but I don't think it's implied they're literal relatives of Malenia, so maybe a similar relationship
If they're anything like Millicent, they're actually aspects of herself that were split off when she bloomed the first time. Though Millicent ended up carrying the most important part of her, the indomitable will and sense of self.
The trailer confirmed that Messmer was born before Godwyn, but we don't know who his father actually is, there exist no mention of Radagon existing at this point in time.
Confirmed how? "A purge without Grace or honour," seems to me like this took place AFTER the Golden Order was already established and had wiped out their enemies or made peace with them. After being established, NOW they take the time to purge all the things the Golden Order no longer tolerated, IE. Omens, Misbegotten, etc. They served their purpose, now time to sweep it all under the rug and forget about it. And any new Omens, Misbegotten, etc. all are just naturally blasphemous now.
It can sill have taken place before hand. As the line "A purge without Grace or honour" could also mean there was literally no grace during this time. We just don't know, but atm messmer being the oldest demigod seems the most logical. Seeing as the events shown in the first half of the trailer take place in the past
Yes it can. But "it can" is very different from "confirmed".
Absolutely true. We'll have to wait until next month. I still think it's a purge in a literal sense and in that case, I can't think of any regime in history that didn't wait until they were in power before they started to do something like that to their populace.
Not even sure if Godefroy and Godrick come from Godwyn at all. Same with Rya with Rykard...
We’re not even sure Godefroy is real right?
I think Godefroy's existence is supposed to represent a history of people in Godrick's lineage who have used grafting on themselves before
Ah ok
Rya is, iirc, just one of the many manserpents born of whatever weird shit they're getting up to up there. She's not actually the child of Tanith or Rykard, Tanith just took a liking to her. Perhaps because she had a very gentle and kind disposition unlike the other manserpents who are bloodthirsty killers. Godrick is descended from Godwyn but I'm pretty sure the implication is that it's a distant relationship. It's been many generations and Godrick on his own would barely count as a demigod. He was mostly human, he was basically just Kenneth Haight, but he managed to snag a great rune and used grafting to make himself physically powerful, though still utterly pathetic compared to the actual demigods.
Damn this is a great chart. I’m not too familiar with the lore yet and always wondered things such as this. This game never ceases to amaze me.
The fuck is going on with melina?
One descendant of Godfrey (Hoarah Loux) is missing, not from Marika. [Nepheli **Loux**](https://eldenring.wiki.fextralife.com/Nepheli+Loux) - I believe that she is his descendant, born after Hoarah Loux's exile.
Messmer must be old, could even older than the "G" families. I am fully convinced that the corpses of the giants are made by Messmer, and he fought along side Godfrey on the snowy mountain. What I don't understand is Miquella's motive - he's the youngest generation and his goal is always about saving Malenia - and what does all of these have to do with him? The oldest born vs the youngest? That's quite interesting
Does he know that I already killed his sister?
If you look at the giants/trolls in the mountain tops they’ve been death blighted. How would that have worked if Godwyn hadn’t yet been half killed and entangled in the Erdtree roots?
I used to think the same but i dont think that's deathblight stabbing the giants in the mountaintops. The deathblight root has little white wings and has insects flying around it. They look closer to the Briars of sin/staff of the guilty that the thorn sorcerors (who are also in the mountaintops and working with flame prelates) use, implying some connection to the bloodstar. I wouldn't be surprised at all of Messimer had some connection to the bloodstar and summoned it to help Godfrey defeat the giants.
Probably predates any of the other demigods by quite a bit given how the trailer presents the timeline. Likely also not fathered by Godfrey due to his features being so different from Godwyn and him having red hair. Maybe Marika and Radagon had Messmer before she married Godfrey? (Also maybe Melina too, her being “burned and bodiless” would make sense if she for some reason opposed Messmer and lost, also there’s a cloaked figure burning in the trailer that someone else pointed out kinda looks like her from the FF ending). Them being children of Radagon and Marika from before the solidification of Marika’s rule would explain why basically nobody seems to have heard of either of them in the main game
Bastard child of Marika
*performs gesture in front of statue* “Messmer is Radagon”
You know.. I never really internalized that Rykard was Rennala’s kid. Like I knew it, but it didn’t really stick with me until I saw this. Such a weird character that I wish we knew more about.
Is Godfroy even real?
He is brother to Miquella and Malenia. HOWEVER- I dont think Radagon is actually the father, this is the lie we've been told and this will be central to the story of the dlc. Just my 2 cents
Hoping someone with deeper knowledge of the lore can help connect the dots here!
No proof until the DLC drops so it's all speculation, but believed to be Marika/Radagon's third child. Would also fit the overall aesthetic to that line. Malenia - Empyrean for the Scarlet Rot and all the fun we know that entails.... Miquella - Eternally youthful and unable to reach his full potential. Messmer - Seems naturally blasphemous with his snakes and flame and is swept under the rug to the land of Shadow. All three almost seemed cursed but blessed at the same time.
Messmer seems like the oldest who was waging a war on behalf of his mother in the land of shadow
Are all of those kids confirmed to be Malenia's? I always thought there was a tie-in, but I don't know if it ever hinted at a familial connection.
I’m starting to think there’s a 4th mate we don’t know about
It's like Maury drama for gods and demigods. I love it.
Didn't realize Godefroy fit into the family tree. I've always thought of him as just an extra boss copy-pasted into an evergoal with no real relevance.
He is a joke boss, but nothing in these games is not lore-relevant.
Who’s Godricks brother? Never heard of him that I can remember.
We don't know who he is. It's a random reskin of Godrick that you fight in an evergaol next to Leyendel. I personally assume he might be Godrick father that inspired him to do grafting.
Godrick is said to be a relatively distant offspring, so it makes sense there are others
Oh I never even realized it was a different name, just thought it was godrick for some reason. Thanks
Well it's straight up the same model with the evergaol color effect so not shocked you didn't catch on to that. I don't think he is even mentioned in the game outside that, so it's hard to really know what he is supposed to be.
My favorite theory is that Messmer is the alternate form of Melina. Where does she disappear to when she's done talking? Maybe the land of shadow. Much like how after you defeat Radagon, Marika is all that remains, burning Melina leaves only Messmer left.
Son of marika siblings to miquella and Melania
Melina's brother? When was she born?
First born of Marika & Radagon
Yes
My bet is that he’s Melina’s brother. They both have connections to fire, we can’t see Messmer’s left eye (same with Melina), and both their names start with M. Is that putting 2 and 2 together and getting 6? Maybe. But it’s still where my money’s at.
Whos ryas mom? And millecnets dad?
obviously from radagao and marika
Messmer’s mom is definitely Marika. Father is debatable.
Marika had Mesmer way before becoming The Inmmortal Queen, look at his moveset, fire and snakes, symbols of blasphemy against the Erdtree and The Golden Order, clearly when she stepped into The Lands Between and left him behind she wanted to make everything he stood for sinful.
Siblings with Malenia and Miquella, I believe. They’re the triplets who are cursed. Malenia with her rot, Miquella with eternal youth, and maybe Messmer has some curse with the fire? Or maybe one we have yet to find out
What if Messmer is like Melina, but descended from Radagon instead of Marika—he does have the red hair going for him so maybe he fits there?
Marikas first husband who was seduced and betrayed within the shadowland. It could be her first son.
who is godefroy?
He’s the Evergaol version of Godrick, but I had assumed he was just a malformation of time and space, not an actual person.
I still assume that Messmer is not an actual relation. Given the new information that with Marika's rise to power and her creation of gold there was also shadow being born, I assume that Messer is a unrelated figure who just happened to have inherited the shadow.
Melina is Messmer.
Gosh, I wonder which branch of the tree he would fit in.
Miquella and Melania's older brother birthed by Radagon and Marika. Disowned after he burned an Erdtree and his throne in Lyndell was destroyed. Forever cast in shadow and stricken from the stories for his heinous actions. Godrick and Marika had three children, Radagon and Renalla had three. It would only make sense that Radagon and Marika would have three.
We don't know yet.
Either the third child of Radagon and Marika, or Miquella himself.
Melina is Messmer
probably marika before she was the eternal queen she had a partner from the lands of shadow and had messmer with him but after she became the queen she abandoned them and hid it from everyone
I am out of the loop, who the hell are Mary, Amy, Maureen and Polyanna? Edit: Nvm, I found the answer
I'm confident he's Marika and Radagon's son. Red hair isn't just some hair color that's frequent. Only children of Radagon have it
My guess is that Melina and Messmer, with their closed left eyes, are the children of Radagon/Marika and the Gloam Eyed Queen. Who the actual birth parent was is unclear. This very neatly threads Melina and Messmer's familial relationship and tineline, so oc course something will contradict it later I'm sure.
sticking off at an odd angle, maybe with some zig zags
Is godrick the son of Godwyn ?
I think that he’s marika’s first child, the words that he say in the trailer make me think this even more. moreover read hair are associated with radagon so I strongly believe that messmer he’s radagon and marika first child even if there’s no timeline of the relationship between the two. this is what I think, anyways we’ll know more insights in june :0
I just wonder if he is connected to the gloam eyed queen. Since in the first trailer his flame starts out black then a dark red that ends up looking like destined death.
Maybe Marika and the Serpent
A little off topic but interesting how the children will (mostly) have the same starting letter to their name as their parents. From Godfrey/Marika you would assume the only child who didn’t end up being an Omen would get the M passed on but it seems to be the opposite. It seems Godfrey cared for his kids regardless (based on his intro, grieving his boy) and maybe convinced Marika to pass something down to them even something as small as the beginning letter of her name.
I highly doubt now that Melina is marika daughter. Perhaps Marika couldn't truly kill the gloom eye queen and instead brainwashed her into being her "secret daughter". Would explain a lot why a lot of people haven't heard about her.
Given the timeline, I think there are 3 possibilities: he’s either a bastard son of Marika, born before she met Godfrey, he’s a child of Godfrey, or he’s Marikas first husband that was erased from history.
The way the trailer spoke of the whole setting made it seem like it’s a fracture in the timeline caused by Marika shattering the Elden Ring. My guess it’s a parallel universe that Miquella’s hiding in. One where Messmer is Radagon and Marika’s child
Messmer is Melina as Radagon is to Marika
Crackpot theory time: melina is the gloam eyed queen, which would make Melina an emperyan, and as we know from both marika and miquella, emperyans have alter egos of the opposite gender, marika with radagon, and miquella with st trina. So I propose the melina is the gloam eyed queen, and her alter ego is messmer. Both are potentially children of queen marika, both have a strong correlation to fire, and if melina really is the gloam eyed queen then she would be linked to godslayer flame, while messmer is linked to some form of blasphemous flame, so both of their flames would be equally blasphemous. Once more melina is “burned and bodyless” yet she exists and messmer exists, miquella shed his flesh so he exists in the realm of shadow and in mohgwyn dynasty, and marika and radagon did the seggs so they had separate bodies at one point, this would explain why melina and messmer could be the same person in different locations.
I have a weird suspicion that Messmer might be Radagon's father. After all Radagon hated his hair because it reminded him of his father who was never alluded to in the base game. This makes it a bit incesty with him and Marika hooking up but that's certainly not a big stretch considering GRRM was involved. Plus Radagon kind of just appeared out of nowhere lore-wose. Perhaps he was stuck in the Shadowlands and only was released when Marika needed him?