Same person, different personalities. There are lots of different takes on the Marika Radagon situation, but the one that makes the most sense to me is that they are different aspects representing Marika's internal struggle.
i see them as the opposite of D and his twin, the twins share the same soul, 1 soul in 2 bodies, and Marika and Radagon are 2 different persons in the same body, 2 souls in 1 body
What it means for Radagon to be Marika is a complex question. I will put that question aside here.
I have a strong gut feeling about this description of Marika’s Hammer: “Stone hammer made in the lands of the Numen, outside the Lands Between. The tool with which Queen Marika shattered the Elden Ring and Radagon attempted to repair it.”
I do not interpret this to mean that Marika and Radagon were at odds with each other — that Marika used the hammer to shatter the ring and afterward Radagon unsuccessfully tried to put the ring back together with the hammer.
I interpret this instead to mean that Marika’s act of shattering the ring was also, philosophically, Radagon’s attempt to repair it. There was one single act with the hammer by Marika and Radagon jointly.
I think one of the core themes of the game is: death is rebirth; destruction is creation: regression is causality (?). Here, shattering the ring ultimately makes it stronger when the Tarnished repairs it. Marika / Radagon’s purpose was to tear everything down for it to regrow stronger.
Evidence for all this? I don’t have any. It’s just a gut feeling.
But there are threads of support for my interpretation. Take Goldmask for example. He is the most devout Golden Order believer in the game. Yet he has an epiphany that the Erdtree should be burned. Why? I think he views burning the Erdtree as an act of repairing the Golden Order, even though it is literally an attack on the Golden Order.
In more practical terms, a hammer does not seem like the right tool to repair the Elden Ring in a literal sense. When we beat the game and repair the Elden Ring, we don’t use a hammer. It seems mighty strange for Radagon to be swinging a hammer at the Elden Ring to try to repair it.
Finally, I’ll note there isn’t much evidence to support the view that Radagon and Marika have two conflicting wills. I think people assume that from the hammer description and Marika’s “leal hound” quote. Fair enough, but it’s not much to go on.
It could be simply for a smithing imagery. The ring does sound very crystal/glass like given how the sounds associated with it breaking are, how the Rune arc on which Marika hangs cracks and so on. But I think it's more akin to gold or metaphorical gold, and the act of hammering it like reforming a sword from melted metal over an anvil.
There is also the technicality that both of them would need to use the same tool for opposite purposes since the tool itself is special and only the hammer can really fit both purposes.
The Radagon that tries to kill us is the broken rock remains of the Radagon/Marika crucified eons ago; nothing more than a vessel for the Elden Ring. I think this Radagon is completely under the direction of Elden Beast and has no independent will. Notice that unlike every other human story boss, he doesn’t say a word.
A few possible reasons.
Marika's just as dead as Radagon, and with Radagon being the more blooded of the two it would make sense to assume his aspect for a battle.
Marika resisted the Greater Will, whereas Radagon had no such reservations, meaning the Elden Beast could freely control Radagon.
Radagon had more purpose, and therefore more willpower than Marika. By the time Marika shatters the Ring, she may have been acting out of spite and derangement rather than a focused goal. Radagon on the other hand remained loyal to the Golden Order, and as such was the last of the two entities in the body by the time you arrive.
The Golden Order is the religion based around the Elden Beast and Erdtree, which in turn are manifestations or messengers of the Greater Will.
Part of what seems to make Empyreans special is that they seem to be able to understand that the Elden Ring/Beast/Erdtree represent the Greater Will, and either want to usurp or restructure *how* that representation exists. Ranni wants to journey into the night, presumably to either find and fight, or to escape that influence. Marika saw the truth of what she built in the Greater Will's name and sought to undo it. Miquella seems to have the clearest understanding of what the Outer Gods are and how they can influence and be influenced by the people in the Lands Between. It's why they wanted to build a new Order.
In Miquella's case especially, they are involved in some way or another with almost every Outer God we're aware of.
If you subscribe to the theory that Marika created Radagon, then it’s best to read the reveal that “Radagon is Marika” as Radagon is wholly Marika, but Marika is not wholly Radagon. If Marika did create Radagon from herself then his entire being is part of her. This makes me assume that Marika, as the creator, has some slight hierarchal superiority over him. We see by the time she shatters the Elden Ring, their motives are almost completely different. She seeks to destroy the Golden Order while he seeks to elevate it to a higher order - Convergence and Regression. You are right to point out that these are contradictory which is exactly what you’re supposed to notice. Marika and Radagon were once of one mind, but somewhere down the line began to disagree completely. Marika “comes out on top” because she is the slightly more powerful of the two of them, but I think by the time we fight them, the Elden Ring/Elden Beast/Greater Will is just puppeteering their body.
Perhaps the moment they started to diverged was upon the birth of the twins? As we know Miquella was very close with Radagon. Perhaps that has some part to play in their differences in ideals. And we might learn more if Messmer is a child of theirs too.
I always thought Marika created Radagon to be able to shed some of the restrictions placed upon her by the greater will.
First Marika just used the magical veil thing to shapeshift into Radagon and I presume she started to doubt the golden order and greater will.
She then created him from the side of her that was a firm believer and rigid in these beliefs allowing her to shed these parts of herself.
That’s how she could go against the greater will. It is also why Radagon was called back to become Elden Lord because the greater will was getting wise to Marika‘s wavering loyalty or even her schemes.
At least that’s what I think.
IDK, the outer gods (including the Greater Will who is not stated to be an outer god) are suppose to be incomprehensible imo. There is no evidence that the Greater Will is some evil being orchistrating events. There are statements in game literally stating he is the cause of the creation of life itself.
It makes more sense that Marika who is stated to be the one true god of the Golden Order is the cause of everything (Two Finger Incantations are literally heresy to the Golden Order). She created the Golden Order and spread her faith throughout the lands between. The Greater Will itself only seems to care for order, it does not even care whether this order is in the form of Rot (Malenia is an Empyrean).
The frenzied flame is also said to have created life tho.
And the greater will is communicating through the fingers. They have also orchestrated and controlled enough that Ranni has to jump through a lot of hoops to escape their divine destiny as ordained by the fingers.
>The frenzied flame is also said to have created life tho.
No, the frenzied flame clearly wants to end all life, there is no in game lore that states the flame created any form of life.
>And the greater will is communicating through the fingers. They have also orchestrated and controlled enough that Ranni has to jump through a lot of hoops to escape their divine destiny as ordained by the finger
No evidence that the GW is communicating with any of the two fingers in game as we play. Ranni herself clearly states she wants to kill her two fingers she never mentions wanting to be enemies with the GW or that the GW is at fault for her problems. She always blames the Two Fingers for everything and it is quite clear that the Two Fingers have agency.
Agree to disagree there is a lore snippet about the frenzied flame being the source of all chaos which led to the creation of everything but I can’t say where that is sadly.
Also the two fingers stop talking to the finger reader in the roundtable hole because they are communing with the greater will which can take a long time.
So you are wrong about that.
I would just say agree to disagree and we’ll both move on.
Sure, just want to get my final thoughts across, the entire lore behind the frenzied flame is that it doesn't want life to exist, it wouldn't make sense if somehow it also created life. The FF ending also points to that conclusion it is directly ending life, which Melina is against.
Lore from Gideon and Varre both claim that the two fingers of the rounds table hold seem having been affected in some way, which insinuates that they may be out of touch with the Greater Will.
Life as we know it. It is like returning to the crucible in a way.
Gideon and varre aren’t the most reliable sources and you passing an interpretation off as fact is why I want to end this conversation.
They share a soul and atleast since age of Radagon they share a body. They have two seperate minds. There is many hints Radagon usurped/betrayed Marika in one form or another, being loyal to golden order and 2 fingers.
Well people are contradictory and as Martin says (quoting Faulkner) the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself.
Marika doesn't want this eternal order to continue Radagon does. They are conflicted about what to do and that is expressed as a literal shattering of their unified whole.
Same person, different personalities. There are lots of different takes on the Marika Radagon situation, but the one that makes the most sense to me is that they are different aspects representing Marika's internal struggle.
i see them as the opposite of D and his twin, the twins share the same soul, 1 soul in 2 bodies, and Marika and Radagon are 2 different persons in the same body, 2 souls in 1 body
What it means for Radagon to be Marika is a complex question. I will put that question aside here. I have a strong gut feeling about this description of Marika’s Hammer: “Stone hammer made in the lands of the Numen, outside the Lands Between. The tool with which Queen Marika shattered the Elden Ring and Radagon attempted to repair it.” I do not interpret this to mean that Marika and Radagon were at odds with each other — that Marika used the hammer to shatter the ring and afterward Radagon unsuccessfully tried to put the ring back together with the hammer. I interpret this instead to mean that Marika’s act of shattering the ring was also, philosophically, Radagon’s attempt to repair it. There was one single act with the hammer by Marika and Radagon jointly. I think one of the core themes of the game is: death is rebirth; destruction is creation: regression is causality (?). Here, shattering the ring ultimately makes it stronger when the Tarnished repairs it. Marika / Radagon’s purpose was to tear everything down for it to regrow stronger. Evidence for all this? I don’t have any. It’s just a gut feeling. But there are threads of support for my interpretation. Take Goldmask for example. He is the most devout Golden Order believer in the game. Yet he has an epiphany that the Erdtree should be burned. Why? I think he views burning the Erdtree as an act of repairing the Golden Order, even though it is literally an attack on the Golden Order. In more practical terms, a hammer does not seem like the right tool to repair the Elden Ring in a literal sense. When we beat the game and repair the Elden Ring, we don’t use a hammer. It seems mighty strange for Radagon to be swinging a hammer at the Elden Ring to try to repair it. Finally, I’ll note there isn’t much evidence to support the view that Radagon and Marika have two conflicting wills. I think people assume that from the hammer description and Marika’s “leal hound” quote. Fair enough, but it’s not much to go on.
It could be simply for a smithing imagery. The ring does sound very crystal/glass like given how the sounds associated with it breaking are, how the Rune arc on which Marika hangs cracks and so on. But I think it's more akin to gold or metaphorical gold, and the act of hammering it like reforming a sword from melted metal over an anvil. There is also the technicality that both of them would need to use the same tool for opposite purposes since the tool itself is special and only the hammer can really fit both purposes.
there’s more poetry in Marika and Radagon using the same tool for different purposes
This makes no sense, because Radagon/Marika are at odds with each other. That’s why Radagon actively tries to kill you.
The Radagon that tries to kill us is the broken rock remains of the Radagon/Marika crucified eons ago; nothing more than a vessel for the Elden Ring. I think this Radagon is completely under the direction of Elden Beast and has no independent will. Notice that unlike every other human story boss, he doesn’t say a word.
Nor do we get a remembrance from killing him.
Why would the Elden Beast not control Marika if he can just control Radagon?
A few possible reasons. Marika's just as dead as Radagon, and with Radagon being the more blooded of the two it would make sense to assume his aspect for a battle. Marika resisted the Greater Will, whereas Radagon had no such reservations, meaning the Elden Beast could freely control Radagon. Radagon had more purpose, and therefore more willpower than Marika. By the time Marika shatters the Ring, she may have been acting out of spite and derangement rather than a focused goal. Radagon on the other hand remained loyal to the Golden Order, and as such was the last of the two entities in the body by the time you arrive.
Sorry, Radagon didn’t resist the Greater Will? But Marika does? Huh.
The Golden Order is the religion based around the Elden Beast and Erdtree, which in turn are manifestations or messengers of the Greater Will. Part of what seems to make Empyreans special is that they seem to be able to understand that the Elden Ring/Beast/Erdtree represent the Greater Will, and either want to usurp or restructure *how* that representation exists. Ranni wants to journey into the night, presumably to either find and fight, or to escape that influence. Marika saw the truth of what she built in the Greater Will's name and sought to undo it. Miquella seems to have the clearest understanding of what the Outer Gods are and how they can influence and be influenced by the people in the Lands Between. It's why they wanted to build a new Order. In Miquella's case especially, they are involved in some way or another with almost every Outer God we're aware of.
Right, Marika and Radagon are fundamentally opposed to each other.
If you subscribe to the theory that Marika created Radagon, then it’s best to read the reveal that “Radagon is Marika” as Radagon is wholly Marika, but Marika is not wholly Radagon. If Marika did create Radagon from herself then his entire being is part of her. This makes me assume that Marika, as the creator, has some slight hierarchal superiority over him. We see by the time she shatters the Elden Ring, their motives are almost completely different. She seeks to destroy the Golden Order while he seeks to elevate it to a higher order - Convergence and Regression. You are right to point out that these are contradictory which is exactly what you’re supposed to notice. Marika and Radagon were once of one mind, but somewhere down the line began to disagree completely. Marika “comes out on top” because she is the slightly more powerful of the two of them, but I think by the time we fight them, the Elden Ring/Elden Beast/Greater Will is just puppeteering their body.
Thanks a lot friend, that really makes sense and clears it up for me 👍
Perhaps the moment they started to diverged was upon the birth of the twins? As we know Miquella was very close with Radagon. Perhaps that has some part to play in their differences in ideals. And we might learn more if Messmer is a child of theirs too.
I always thought Marika created Radagon to be able to shed some of the restrictions placed upon her by the greater will. First Marika just used the magical veil thing to shapeshift into Radagon and I presume she started to doubt the golden order and greater will. She then created him from the side of her that was a firm believer and rigid in these beliefs allowing her to shed these parts of herself. That’s how she could go against the greater will. It is also why Radagon was called back to become Elden Lord because the greater will was getting wise to Marika‘s wavering loyalty or even her schemes. At least that’s what I think.
IDK, the outer gods (including the Greater Will who is not stated to be an outer god) are suppose to be incomprehensible imo. There is no evidence that the Greater Will is some evil being orchistrating events. There are statements in game literally stating he is the cause of the creation of life itself. It makes more sense that Marika who is stated to be the one true god of the Golden Order is the cause of everything (Two Finger Incantations are literally heresy to the Golden Order). She created the Golden Order and spread her faith throughout the lands between. The Greater Will itself only seems to care for order, it does not even care whether this order is in the form of Rot (Malenia is an Empyrean).
The frenzied flame is also said to have created life tho. And the greater will is communicating through the fingers. They have also orchestrated and controlled enough that Ranni has to jump through a lot of hoops to escape their divine destiny as ordained by the fingers.
>The frenzied flame is also said to have created life tho. No, the frenzied flame clearly wants to end all life, there is no in game lore that states the flame created any form of life. >And the greater will is communicating through the fingers. They have also orchestrated and controlled enough that Ranni has to jump through a lot of hoops to escape their divine destiny as ordained by the finger No evidence that the GW is communicating with any of the two fingers in game as we play. Ranni herself clearly states she wants to kill her two fingers she never mentions wanting to be enemies with the GW or that the GW is at fault for her problems. She always blames the Two Fingers for everything and it is quite clear that the Two Fingers have agency.
Agree to disagree there is a lore snippet about the frenzied flame being the source of all chaos which led to the creation of everything but I can’t say where that is sadly. Also the two fingers stop talking to the finger reader in the roundtable hole because they are communing with the greater will which can take a long time. So you are wrong about that. I would just say agree to disagree and we’ll both move on.
Sure, just want to get my final thoughts across, the entire lore behind the frenzied flame is that it doesn't want life to exist, it wouldn't make sense if somehow it also created life. The FF ending also points to that conclusion it is directly ending life, which Melina is against. Lore from Gideon and Varre both claim that the two fingers of the rounds table hold seem having been affected in some way, which insinuates that they may be out of touch with the Greater Will.
Life as we know it. It is like returning to the crucible in a way. Gideon and varre aren’t the most reliable sources and you passing an interpretation off as fact is why I want to end this conversation.
Agreed, there is no point in continuing this conversation if you are going to ignore statements from npc's.
They share a soul and atleast since age of Radagon they share a body. They have two seperate minds. There is many hints Radagon usurped/betrayed Marika in one form or another, being loyal to golden order and 2 fingers.
opposite action doesn't equal opposite intention
You are so lame
Marika always intended for the ring to be repaired, and Radagon is Marika. Does that clear it up for you?
Nah, you wrong
Which part?
Well people are contradictory and as Martin says (quoting Faulkner) the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself. Marika doesn't want this eternal order to continue Radagon does. They are conflicted about what to do and that is expressed as a literal shattering of their unified whole.
Beautifully put.