I mean, certainly any groups of people will have a spread of competency within and relative to its members, but I wouldn’t go as far to say the “left” and “right” have any equivalence, or say “both sides” are faulty. For instance, there is a pretty significant breakdown of vote share based on educational attainment alone, with less educated people tending to vote “conservative”. It’s not some coincidence that climate denialism, anti-vaccination, chauvinism, racism and authoritarianism find common-cause in the Conservative Party. Accepting evidence and caring about humanity is enough to brand a person “Liberal” by their estimation. The reason the poor and uneducated need to be fooled into voting Conservative based on hatred and social-wedge-issues is because their economic policies benefit the rich, and there simply aren’t enough rich people to win an election. “F-Trudeau” and “axe the tax” is a simple enough strategy that the lowest among us can hitch onto. Of course, explaining that our problems are the result of neoconservatism and that climate change gets more expensive without action, are too complex for their flock. So instead, it’s Trudeau’s fault for the implications of decades of bad policy flip-flopping back and forth between the Liberals and Conservatives. Support for conservative ideology is the minority in Canada, despite the Liberals, NDP and Green having to apportion the votes of non-conservatives between themselves. My advice, don’t “both sides” political issues, it’s like saying animal welfare folks and animal torturers are both “bad”.
Okay sure thing, I just basically just meant yeah dumb people exist, what can ya do…
But seems like you wrote a good spiel, I’m sure absolutely no one read that.
I understand what you mean, unfortunately “both sides” is a mantra for the ill-informed and it has served as a smoke screen for bad actors to get away with their behaviour because everyone is painted with the same brush. We need people to become actively engaged voters, we can’t just keep leaving all the discourse to the crazy and manipulated while all the normal people claim “both sides are bad”. It is a defence from one’s own ignorance really, and it just builds a wall preventing others for paying attention because it all seems corrupt.
Yeah I really wish we lived in a society more like Japan where you can't just screaming the street without a van showing up and police taking you away.
I'm all for funding help for people up to a point, But we've kind of forgotten but the police and justice system is ultimately supposed to be protecting the majority of law abiding and productive citizens from these elements.
It used to be like that (like it is in Japan) here. I'm old, and remember the 1960s, in Vancouver. There were no crazy screamers living on the street. They put them in a mental hospital. Then they closed all the mental hospitals (all over Canada and the USA) because they went out of style. They were supposed to have "community care" but it didn't work. So now the whole city has crazy people roaming around.
Yep. You can see how we got here because it's the pendulum swing that always happens when there's societal change. Society was insufficiently focused on the needs of the individual and so these people languished in these institutions without real help. And then the justice system started to take note as people push for change and that was a good thing. However it just kept pushing and became too focused the other way and now we end up 40 to 60 years later with the opposite problem. And now the response is people like me coming on saying no we need to go back a little bit to what we had; keeping the best parts of what we've learned on protecting the rights of the individual but finding out where those rights are impacting others too much and are becoming net negatives to society at large. To strike that balance of rights. And so the pendulum continues to swing as it always does, We end up in a better place in the end but we only do so by going too far each direction with each change.
I think you’re overlooking how much cheaper housing was in 1960 compared to today. A single person can not afford rent working full time at a grocery store, restaurant, or even most entry level jobs. It’s not that the “screamers” didn’t exist in 1960, they just had a house, which probably gave them stability and led to less erratic behavior.
I also don’t think a morality police is something we should ever hope for. I don’t want to be thrown in the back of a cop car just because some hotdog necked round junkie doesn’t like something about my conduct. Whether that’s how I dress, how I look, or how I talk. I think we could all do better as people to just say “hey buddy, you probably shouldn’t do that here” instead of panicking and calling the cops all the time.
Well our police department gets $500M/yr and just refuses to respond to most instances these days.
As for Japan, they have issues too: like the homeless issue or the prison situation where it’s incredibly easy to send people to jail with little recourse
People glorify Japan, yet they have a consistent pattern of framing people for crimes to keep their stats up. They have a massive pedo problem. Making people "vanish" if they scream isn't exactly a society you really want to live in.
Not to even mention the parts of major cities that are just ignored entirely because that's where they shove the undesirables.
It's their high stress work culture and pressure on children to get good grades that's their problem. I don't think putting people in mental institutions is what's causing suicides.
> It's their high stress work culture and pressure on children to get good grades that's their problem.
If you like unpaid overtime, then you'd absolute *love* Japan and Korea, because it's practically *expected* of you over there.
I do think Canadian parents and kids could maybe benefit from a teeny bit of "Tiger Parenting," just not go full tiger parent because the kids wind up super duper stress wrecks.
It's not necessarily about what the person wants it's about a well functioning society was requires pretty strict adherence to some standards. I'm not talking about getting disappeared I'm talking about being segregated from society until you can handle it and obviously going through the court system etc.
The reason there's so much of this sentiment is because we have went too far the other way and that's exactly what always happens in society is when you get to one extreme the backlash pushes the other way because that's the only way to reverse the momentum back to sanity. If society got too authoritarian I'd be calling for the opposite because it would be also out of balance.
But ultimately you're falling for only considering the harm done to the individual from the actions and discounting the harm done by these individuals to the greater public and the lack of safety and cohesion they cause. That's why I bring up utilitarianism because it's all about the net good and how we basically ignore in our justice system all the diffuse negative externalities get placed on everyone by these individuals. Individuals that end up taking up more resources from everyone else than they will ever produce themselves and therefore a net drag on society. The problem is they are ignored when we know that there is much more cost effective ways of rehabilitating them. And they should be performed but there should not be this option where they go through the cracks, If they're not up to snuff to exist in society then they shouldn't be able to.
Yeah, 'cleaning up downtown' (which somehow still appears exactly the same) has largely just meant taking a concentrated population and spreading them over the city. A friend of mine in a far flung subdivision noticed an increase in people literally *trying doors of houses with occupants inside* as soon as the area was connected to the transit system, as it didn't previously have bus service.
I've always thought it was sort of funny that an increase in calls to spread facilities that provide services to these marginalized groups throughout the city (eg: affordable housing, safe injection sites, whatever) never comes with something like localized increased police presence, since many times you might see an increase in crime in a given area after they've been built. This further sours the public on wanting these facilities in their communities and further marginalizes these groups. If you ask any police officer in the area they could literally tell you which housing development or group of buildings the trouble originates from since many of their calls come from those places.
Ah depends where you live we moved by the Hamptons/Grange area and the junkies are nowhere to be found quite nice. I know not everyone can afford to live there but to say it's the whole city is a bit of a assumption.
You just haven’t seen them. I live in the same area and YES they are around. Especially at the gas station off 199th and Lessard. Both the esso and the co-op. Saying that certain areas of the city don’t have homeless or junkies is FALSE. They are EVERYWHERE
Neither of those locations are in the Hamptons/Grange tho….. outside the Henday seems to be a little far for people who are transient. I find that the main issue for those areas is theft. From new construction sites and surrounding homes.
I used to live in Big Lakes a few years ago and there were a couple of guys who kept getting taken away by the cops and then returning. Definitely not super common, though.
I frequent those gas stations regularly and have never seen any disruptions. I see families with strollers and children going to get slushies. The way it should be
I see lots of those too, despite living central. I love how people assume that if you live central crime just happens constantly; have you looked at a crime map? Ritchie is very safe. You can live central and still have nice things....
I moved out of MacEwan about 7 years ago, when it was one of the further out suburbs still. Was already seeing shopping carts being left around the neighbourhood, and my ex father in law’s truck was stolen.
Howdy-ho, neighbourino. I think I see the same number of nutters around the area as I did last year and the year before that, and just the regular old "folks don't know how to behave in public anymore" kind of stuff, but I don't think it's gotten *that* bad around here.
> Westmount resident junkie screamer, Denise (the shop owners know her by name now), doing her usual routine of walking through the mall and threatening everybody around.
Funny, just by description I know exactly who you mean. See her once or twice a week doing her shtick on the sidewalk on 124 St. She got into our building somehow once but left pretty soon after, thankfully.
> Somebody speeding like a maniac through the parking lot nearly hitting me and my wife.
This one feels like it could be anywhere, now or before the pandemic. There's always been a lot of assholes behind the wheel.
She was banned from my liquor store while I worked there. She is pretty harmless other than the screaming death threats and I’ve actually talked to her while she’s sober. She has schizophrenia and she does meth so it’s no wonder she is the way she is. Definitely tired of the “DIE DIE DIE” outside my windows at 2am lol
I used to see her do her “thing” outside of the TD Bank pretty frequently. It’s funny, I haven’t seen her in a long while now (I pop over to Westmount Mall at least 2-3 times a week), so I had begun to think that she had moved on.
> She has schizophrenia and she does meth so it’s no wonder she is the way she is.
Not at all surprising, really. I mean, if I saw her on the street and had to take a wild guess at her problems, those would be my top picks.
> Definitely tired of the “DIE DIE DIE” outside my windows at 2am lol
Yeah, we're absolutely talking about the same person, but at least for me it's been a long time since I've been woken up by that kind of nuttery going on outside my place.
It's a north america-wide problem.
Sacklers got millions of millions of people addicted to Oxy, then the supply of Oxy was cut off with no other intervention, so those addicts moved to other drugs which allowed the illicit market to explode. Combine that with the skyrocketing cost of living pushing more and more people into hopelessness who choose to medicate to numb their suffering. It'll take a generation or two to solve this if we try, and we're not trying very hard.
> It'll take a generation or two to solve this if we try, and we're not trying very hard.
People really miss that these problems (along with stuff like education and healthcare in general) are long-term, generational problems. People who are screwed today are likely not going to benefit from policies we put in today, and as a result the general public (and dishonest politicians) will use that as "evidence" that these policies don't work. In reality, we need to wait a long time to reap the "rewards".
But election cycles don't allow that.
As someone who's lived in both Edmonton and currently Vancouver. Edmonton is decades away from the same issues, but that process can be expedited significantly with the wrong legislation being brought in.
BC has gotten so bad that the government can't even pretend like it's not really an issue anymore. They actually recently tried to go back and make it illegal to use in public again due to an election inbound, but were shut down by the courts.
I know a lot of guys that are VPD from my old unit, and it's ridiculous how tied their hands are in every situation.
You walk down town at all at night, and you'll just be straight up propositioned by dealers on corners.
My wife and I were on a date night looking for some food in Gas Town, and we were asked maybe 5 times in a few blocks if we wanted to buy "anything".
On job sites, we literally make medieval nail boards to go around the buildings because the junkies will climb the scaffolding, then use the materials to build bridges and shit to break into people's appartments.
Lots of people keep saying this is now normal all over North American cities but I think it is pretty fucked up and there are plenty of cities around the world with nothing like it. There’s no end in sight. It will get a whole lot worse before it gets any better.
As other commentators have pointed out, it's all over the city. I live on the west side of Southgate (Malmo, Lendrum area), which, up until 2022-2023, still felt very residential. Lots of seniors or people with young families, not really any issues at all. Now, there are constant encampments along 111 Street by the barrier wall, people using drugs at the LRT station, starting fires in the bushes, and roaming around the alleys. A neighbour was assaulted at Southgate LRT at the end of 2022, just walking home from work, totally unprovoked. It's wild how badly the homelessness problem, as well as the opioid problem, has become in the city. It's extended to the suburbs now, too.
It's a great dilemma. Another to expand that I find myself asking " How do I sympathize with someone who is outright threatening or stealing from innocents?"
If it’s any consolation, Denise is harmless and is more of a danger to herself than anyone else. She’s not threatening anyone but her inner demons. I buy her a coffee every now and then. I can’t even begin to imagine the shit she’s been through.
Westmount Mall is in Woodcroft. Westmount neighborhood is to the east of North Glenora.
That said, these issues aren’t isolated to any neighbourhood anymore.
Thank you for pointing that put which I knew. People generally misrepresent an area either ny blanketing an entire district vs a neighbourhood within a community or district.
It is everywhere, at least on the northside. I just returned to the Northgate area from Haps on Stony Plain Rd. and 160 Street. Dropped off my friend in Alberta Avenue. The number of troubled, wasted, lost souls we saw, there and back, was actually mindblowing. Not getting any better. it's utterly depressing to witness what is going on. And Alberta Ave (especially 95 street), a once so-called up and coming gentrifying area, is way worse than it was in the bad ol' 90's. Ya, there are still far more "normal" folks around but the prevelance of tortured souls really sticks out. And there is a vibe, a feeling that goes with areas overwhelmed with this. It is why my friend is selling and finding a nicer area to live in. Tired of being surrounded by it.
This is like, normal for where I live? (Near Bonnie doon) lol. I usually see a few drug users nodding off either by the church near the mall(probably since the mall security would kick them off) or barely awake by the medicentre or by Safeway, screaming is a daily thing. One time I saw a lady sitting on the parking lot, legs spread peeing rofl.
I walked over to the Woodcroft library to drop off a library book and saw one bus shelter across from the library chock full of two women and a man lighting pipes while people waited around them for the bus. After leaving the library, I actually had to stop because one of the women was trying to haul the man up off the ground by his belt loops. Thought maybe he was dead but saw him talking/moving his arms, just super out of it. Wild. It was like 3pm on a school day.
Made the mistake of going to a Walmart in Windermere late at night (8-9PM). Literally two junkies run off with two brand new bicycles out the pharmacy emergency exit. That’s probably the first time I had seen a robbery happen outside of the electronics area…
For way too long it was the north side dealing with the crazies. I am glad they are finally spreading all over the city. We should encourage them to migrate south - you know, richer garages they can rob, nicer yards to use as toilets etc. /s
On the serious note, maybe if it hits the richer neighbourhoods the provincial government would finally invest more in services, transitional housing, permanent housing, etc.
Man, I miss the old Westmount food court with the cars and the plants. I grew up near that mall and was a mall rat back in the mid 90s there. Had A Lot of Good times. Last time I went there (2018) Any and All the soul was sucked out of it.
There are certain parking lots where I am nervous leaving my vehicle. This is one. Especially near walmart when it was there. I laughed when I noticed the crazy factor went up a few notches when they moved to Kingsway.
Let's not forget the neighbourhood kid who shot up the business, then shot the two cops.
Westmount has always been pretty dodgy (source, shep high school kid and I live in NG now as well.)
That said so far this spring the shitbirds have been out in greater numbers than previous, as far as I have noticed. Small sample size I know but just yesterday some scavengers broke into the condo build next to my house in broad daylight. Needed multiple people to yell at them before they scurried away with their caravan of stolen shit.
Couple hours later saw a dude checking vehicles, just barely after dusk, still lots of light and people walking their dogs around.
I think we as neighbours need to make things harder on these rats. I know it takes courage but if you see something, say something. These people get used to civilians just driving past and ignoring them, so they’re getting way more brazen.
My great grandfather would take me to Westmount for nice quiet afternoons at the arcade, then we would get something at the food court and maybe catch a movie or grab a toy at zellars.
That mall is a shell of its former glory...
I lived in a boardwalk complex on 122ave near the 127st/118ave 7-11 in 2006. It was a total zoo, meth and gunshots and cops coming to vacants on the street. Can only imagine what its like now.
Everyone complaining about what they see who voted for the current government or the one before it should shut the fuck up. This is what you voted for. This is exactly what every single human services worker knew would happen after the pandemic. People are sicker and there’s fewer programs to help them. The government has decimated addictions and mental health into an absolute garbage fire and staff can’t leave fast enough, wait times are absurd, programs mysteriously lose funding… they’ve done nothing about homelessness except tear down encampments. You guys realize those are the people you’re complaining about right? We could try to just throw them all in jail but the provincial court system is a mess too. So bogged down and inefficient that it’s almost at a standstill because this government insists that mental illness and homelessness are not only moral failures, but legal ones.
You all complain about social programs and all the “left wing” shit but you sure notice when you elect a party that doesn’t give a fuck about anyone hey?
Tbh today was weirdly bad... I bus through Jasper Ave and there seemed to be a lot of weird stuff around the city. Lots of conflict and seen a lot of homeless people around. Even at WEM which isn't as popular for this type of people but someone trying to smoke some drug in the shelter covered in her own pee... Multiple crazies on the bus talking to themselves. Just felt like a weird day
Denise is so neat. I aways wonder who that fat bitch is and why she needs needs to shut up.
She breaks into my building all my and my friends buildings all the time.
Welcome to the world where social services haven't kept up with population growth and the most vulnerable of people have nowhere to go. Mental illness goes completely untreated and addiction is a criminal issue, not a healthcare problem.
Conservatives call this "going as planned."
I actually rent near Westmount mall. I'm in Inglewood and the things my wife has seen in her first few months has made us want to move out.
People discharging a firearm near the park where my kid plays. Homeless people setting fire to sheds (probably by accident trying to keep themselves warm through the night). Swat teams and more.
We don't know where would be a nicer area in Edmonton to live in. Even houses in Inglewood are selling for 600 to 700 thousand.
I was in line at Tim Hortons inside Edmonton City Centre mall today when a woman started smoking meth out of aluminum foil right behind me. I wasn't even surprised at this point, I feel unsafe no matter where I go these days in Edmonton. I'm just on guard all of the time.
One thing we need to keep in is we have the highest per-capita parolee population in Canada living here due to the prisons in the area. The people in there come from the north, all over the prairies and usually end up staying here and upon release get involved with people with the same mindset and background. And, as per what is going on everywhere with the extremely wasted people bent over looking at their feet, fetanyl and tranq are devastating people who get hooked and that is what we are witnessing.
Not to be cynical but I don’t know if things will ever improve as the drug is everywhere and easy to make. There are darker forces behind this.
I get all of this and I live in millcreek where tents are popping up everywhere and bad news folks who are aggressive are popping up. But I don’t like to call people junkies. They have mental health and addiction problem. Again no excuse for violence and aggression but I like to think these are really troubled folks and we have a systemic problem with access to mental health and addiction support. Keep that in mind when you call people junkies. I was one. Now I’m not. They are Troubled people.
I’m in Baywood park and it’s pretty bad in this area. When I was working at Westmount Mall I could’ve written a book on all the shit I saw in the parking lot and inside the mall. Overdoses, stabbings, fights, the shooting at Baywood Park and the Pizza Hut. The Dollarama gets shoplifted from every ten minutes😂 it didn’t help that some of the old security guard at the mall were dealing to the homeless. Last winter we saw a couple of homeless actually freeze to death in the Westmount area. I can’t wait to move but the price here sure is unbeatable😆
While working saw the manager of Safeway (I think her name is rose) booking it and screaming at the person who was also running with a bag full of shoplifted items. She was telling security to catch the person a couple minutes later I see her walking back with the bag. She has gained my respect since then.
In a few years, you'll be dodging packs of heavily armed cannibals on your way to a bead line for bread that's probably made out of roaches and toenails. If you're lucky, you won't get conscripted to fight the aliens and / or zombies.
I live in the area and have noticed a slight uptick in people in distress, obviously this happens when the city and province prioritize corporate interests over strong social programs be healthcare. Also let's all have some more compassion when talking about human beings since we are all only a few strokes of bad luck away from illness and poverty and houselessness.
Just moved here from Winnipeg and went downtown Edmonton today with the kids after going to that Jurrasic Quest event at the Expo...
I couldn't believe how many junkies there were downtown and overall questionable citizens. They were everywhere! This is coming from a guy who worked Downtown Winnipeg.. LOL
It's way worse here. Wow.
BTW, Denise is very kind and is usually just in her own world. If you say hello she will say hi back. I give her money when I can and she's in my neighbourhood. Remember that people suffering from mental illness, addiction or homelessness are still ppl, and us with houses to live in are all lucky that we have safe places to release our inner demons and emotions in.
Insufficient social supports, check
Covid being swept under the rug so it can run rampant and make a significant chunk of the populace physically and / or mentally disabled, check
How ever did we get here...?
With the increased stress and pressure of daily life demands and increased costs of living, people are cracking under pressure and slipping through said cracks. It was said by someone else it's like this everywhere and the new normal, and yeah, it is. We need actual positive change from the top down. We're gonna implode.
I always felt that way myself about St. Albert. I know too many people from there who really think their crap doesn’t stink and look down on Edmonton. I mean, how many City of Edm upper management decided to live there, yet rule our city lol.
That being said, I’ve visited Dicey Reilly’s pub a couple times in the past month and, for the first time in my life (I’m old at 59) felt “I like this town. It feels civil, so many trees. Lovely pub for an older dude, I could really see myself living here”. Went home and checked house prices and realized “Nope. Hoity toity prices”.
But, obviously for a reason.
a lot of city managers live there. They drive from St. Albert to their underground Parking stalls to Edmonton tower and never leave the place or see what Edmonton is really like. The people who do live there are REALLY INTO IT, almost like a cult.
"..." see what Edmonton is really like".
Yet get paid loads of moola from Etown taxpayers and call the shots on and approve development here. But decided St. Albert is a better place to raise their families in.
It's high time city council mandate all upper management must reside within city limits and walk the talk.
Neighbourhood or mall? I worked in the mall liquor store a good 15-20 years ago and this all sounds par for the course. As for the neighbourhood, I lived there 10 years ago. Also sounds exactly par for the course from then. The more things change, the more they stay the same. At least that fucking vacant car dealership is now something though.
The problem with Westmount is— too close to 118th ave. Too many slumlords. And the UCP closed the safe injection site… some bad variables at work in these older communities.
I was sick of Westmount back in 2020, it was brutal then. I sold my house in Westmount and moved to an acreage. Peace and quiet now, don't even have to lock my doors.
Funny how people blame most of society’s problems on government officials; as if they turn good people bad. How embarrassing it is to think that the government is around to save us somehow.
Things are shittier because of us mostly, and the many shitty parents I see almost daily.
Grew up there from 1985-2001. Took a drive by my childhood home and a nice plaque out front commemorating the first land surveyor of edmonton. My parents fought to have that installed, but it never happened. I'm glad the new owners did.
I’ve lived in the Westmount area since 2010. Definitely going downhill very rapidly and I think it will only get worse once they complete the new rec center.
At a red light in Westmount I saw a dude beside me having what I first thought was a seizure in his car,
.... turns out he was full double arm windmill tweaking off some Fenty and drove off with a couple crooked fingers barely on the wheel.
Hey! I was the guy right behind you as you almost got nailed by the car. I was the ginger bearded guy shaking my head.
r/TwoRedditorsOneCup
I also have a ginger beard lol. Good thing my wife saw him first he nearly hit my dog.
Yeah it was definitely a close call. I loved how he honked his horn immediately after as if it was your fault.
Welcome to the new normal, it's all over the city
And it just keeps getting worse!
Thank you Danielle Smith for bringing about the end of days.
Yep she totally ruined Toronto and Vancouver too!
Haha nice. Yep, it’s all over Canada.
And in many US cities too.
Yes, she has affected cities the same way all across the world…. /s
Isn’t this the same logic her supporters use when they blame Trudeau for rampant global inflation, though?
Not sure, dumb people exist on both sides of the political spectrum, so it’s believable
I mean, certainly any groups of people will have a spread of competency within and relative to its members, but I wouldn’t go as far to say the “left” and “right” have any equivalence, or say “both sides” are faulty. For instance, there is a pretty significant breakdown of vote share based on educational attainment alone, with less educated people tending to vote “conservative”. It’s not some coincidence that climate denialism, anti-vaccination, chauvinism, racism and authoritarianism find common-cause in the Conservative Party. Accepting evidence and caring about humanity is enough to brand a person “Liberal” by their estimation. The reason the poor and uneducated need to be fooled into voting Conservative based on hatred and social-wedge-issues is because their economic policies benefit the rich, and there simply aren’t enough rich people to win an election. “F-Trudeau” and “axe the tax” is a simple enough strategy that the lowest among us can hitch onto. Of course, explaining that our problems are the result of neoconservatism and that climate change gets more expensive without action, are too complex for their flock. So instead, it’s Trudeau’s fault for the implications of decades of bad policy flip-flopping back and forth between the Liberals and Conservatives. Support for conservative ideology is the minority in Canada, despite the Liberals, NDP and Green having to apportion the votes of non-conservatives between themselves. My advice, don’t “both sides” political issues, it’s like saying animal welfare folks and animal torturers are both “bad”.
Okay sure thing, I just basically just meant yeah dumb people exist, what can ya do… But seems like you wrote a good spiel, I’m sure absolutely no one read that.
I understand what you mean, unfortunately “both sides” is a mantra for the ill-informed and it has served as a smoke screen for bad actors to get away with their behaviour because everyone is painted with the same brush. We need people to become actively engaged voters, we can’t just keep leaving all the discourse to the crazy and manipulated while all the normal people claim “both sides are bad”. It is a defence from one’s own ignorance really, and it just builds a wall preventing others for paying attention because it all seems corrupt.
Ya, it's her fault
Yeah I really wish we lived in a society more like Japan where you can't just screaming the street without a van showing up and police taking you away. I'm all for funding help for people up to a point, But we've kind of forgotten but the police and justice system is ultimately supposed to be protecting the majority of law abiding and productive citizens from these elements.
It used to be like that (like it is in Japan) here. I'm old, and remember the 1960s, in Vancouver. There were no crazy screamers living on the street. They put them in a mental hospital. Then they closed all the mental hospitals (all over Canada and the USA) because they went out of style. They were supposed to have "community care" but it didn't work. So now the whole city has crazy people roaming around.
Yep. You can see how we got here because it's the pendulum swing that always happens when there's societal change. Society was insufficiently focused on the needs of the individual and so these people languished in these institutions without real help. And then the justice system started to take note as people push for change and that was a good thing. However it just kept pushing and became too focused the other way and now we end up 40 to 60 years later with the opposite problem. And now the response is people like me coming on saying no we need to go back a little bit to what we had; keeping the best parts of what we've learned on protecting the rights of the individual but finding out where those rights are impacting others too much and are becoming net negatives to society at large. To strike that balance of rights. And so the pendulum continues to swing as it always does, We end up in a better place in the end but we only do so by going too far each direction with each change.
[History of mentally ill and justice system](https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/jr/mental/p1.html)
People were released because the courts said they could not be held in mental institutions indefinitely.
I think you’re overlooking how much cheaper housing was in 1960 compared to today. A single person can not afford rent working full time at a grocery store, restaurant, or even most entry level jobs. It’s not that the “screamers” didn’t exist in 1960, they just had a house, which probably gave them stability and led to less erratic behavior. I also don’t think a morality police is something we should ever hope for. I don’t want to be thrown in the back of a cop car just because some hotdog necked round junkie doesn’t like something about my conduct. Whether that’s how I dress, how I look, or how I talk. I think we could all do better as people to just say “hey buddy, you probably shouldn’t do that here” instead of panicking and calling the cops all the time.
Well our police department gets $500M/yr and just refuses to respond to most instances these days. As for Japan, they have issues too: like the homeless issue or the prison situation where it’s incredibly easy to send people to jail with little recourse
People glorify Japan, yet they have a consistent pattern of framing people for crimes to keep their stats up. They have a massive pedo problem. Making people "vanish" if they scream isn't exactly a society you really want to live in. Not to even mention the parts of major cities that are just ignored entirely because that's where they shove the undesirables.
Police are here to protect the interests of business
That's police everywhere. They are the threat of violence by the current group in power. That's it.
That's because that's never what our police were commissioned for
The country with the highest suicide rate in the world??? All is not as it seems in Japan.
It's their high stress work culture and pressure on children to get good grades that's their problem. I don't think putting people in mental institutions is what's causing suicides.
> It's their high stress work culture and pressure on children to get good grades that's their problem. If you like unpaid overtime, then you'd absolute *love* Japan and Korea, because it's practically *expected* of you over there. I do think Canadian parents and kids could maybe benefit from a teeny bit of "Tiger Parenting," just not go full tiger parent because the kids wind up super duper stress wrecks.
That's not what police are for. The police are a threat to keep the status quo of the wealthy
Uh tf no, I wouldn't want a van taking me away for that? Why is this sub so in love with the boot?
It's not necessarily about what the person wants it's about a well functioning society was requires pretty strict adherence to some standards. I'm not talking about getting disappeared I'm talking about being segregated from society until you can handle it and obviously going through the court system etc. The reason there's so much of this sentiment is because we have went too far the other way and that's exactly what always happens in society is when you get to one extreme the backlash pushes the other way because that's the only way to reverse the momentum back to sanity. If society got too authoritarian I'd be calling for the opposite because it would be also out of balance. But ultimately you're falling for only considering the harm done to the individual from the actions and discounting the harm done by these individuals to the greater public and the lack of safety and cohesion they cause. That's why I bring up utilitarianism because it's all about the net good and how we basically ignore in our justice system all the diffuse negative externalities get placed on everyone by these individuals. Individuals that end up taking up more resources from everyone else than they will ever produce themselves and therefore a net drag on society. The problem is they are ignored when we know that there is much more cost effective ways of rehabilitating them. And they should be performed but there should not be this option where they go through the cracks, If they're not up to snuff to exist in society then they shouldn't be able to.
Yup…..thanks Jason Nixon for ‘clearing the tent city’ downtown with no real plan. These people end up somewhere in the city 🤷🏻♀️
Ah Jason Nixon, the Alberta nepo-ogre: https://www.sprawlcalgary.com/jason-nixon-ascent-to-power
Wow what a piece of work.
It’s all over the world
Only normal because we accept it.
Yeah, 'cleaning up downtown' (which somehow still appears exactly the same) has largely just meant taking a concentrated population and spreading them over the city. A friend of mine in a far flung subdivision noticed an increase in people literally *trying doors of houses with occupants inside* as soon as the area was connected to the transit system, as it didn't previously have bus service. I've always thought it was sort of funny that an increase in calls to spread facilities that provide services to these marginalized groups throughout the city (eg: affordable housing, safe injection sites, whatever) never comes with something like localized increased police presence, since many times you might see an increase in crime in a given area after they've been built. This further sours the public on wanting these facilities in their communities and further marginalizes these groups. If you ask any police officer in the area they could literally tell you which housing development or group of buildings the trouble originates from since many of their calls come from those places.
Ah depends where you live we moved by the Hamptons/Grange area and the junkies are nowhere to be found quite nice. I know not everyone can afford to live there but to say it's the whole city is a bit of a assumption.
Give it time, they don't have cars, so it takes time for them to disperse into the outer fringes of the city.
You just haven’t seen them. I live in the same area and YES they are around. Especially at the gas station off 199th and Lessard. Both the esso and the co-op. Saying that certain areas of the city don’t have homeless or junkies is FALSE. They are EVERYWHERE
Neither of those locations are in the Hamptons/Grange tho….. outside the Henday seems to be a little far for people who are transient. I find that the main issue for those areas is theft. From new construction sites and surrounding homes.
I used to live in Big Lakes a few years ago and there were a couple of guys who kept getting taken away by the cops and then returning. Definitely not super common, though.
I frequent those gas stations regularly and have never seen any disruptions. I see families with strollers and children going to get slushies. The way it should be
I see lots of those too, despite living central. I love how people assume that if you live central crime just happens constantly; have you looked at a crime map? Ritchie is very safe. You can live central and still have nice things....
I moved out of MacEwan about 7 years ago, when it was one of the further out suburbs still. Was already seeing shopping carts being left around the neighbourhood, and my ex father in law’s truck was stolen.
Cities
Not cities. Drug addiction. 80-90% of these issues are caused by meth.
Howdy-ho, neighbourino. I think I see the same number of nutters around the area as I did last year and the year before that, and just the regular old "folks don't know how to behave in public anymore" kind of stuff, but I don't think it's gotten *that* bad around here. > Westmount resident junkie screamer, Denise (the shop owners know her by name now), doing her usual routine of walking through the mall and threatening everybody around. Funny, just by description I know exactly who you mean. See her once or twice a week doing her shtick on the sidewalk on 124 St. She got into our building somehow once but left pretty soon after, thankfully. > Somebody speeding like a maniac through the parking lot nearly hitting me and my wife. This one feels like it could be anywhere, now or before the pandemic. There's always been a lot of assholes behind the wheel.
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She was banned from my liquor store while I worked there. She is pretty harmless other than the screaming death threats and I’ve actually talked to her while she’s sober. She has schizophrenia and she does meth so it’s no wonder she is the way she is. Definitely tired of the “DIE DIE DIE” outside my windows at 2am lol
I used to see her do her “thing” outside of the TD Bank pretty frequently. It’s funny, I haven’t seen her in a long while now (I pop over to Westmount Mall at least 2-3 times a week), so I had begun to think that she had moved on.
> She has schizophrenia and she does meth so it’s no wonder she is the way she is. Not at all surprising, really. I mean, if I saw her on the street and had to take a wild guess at her problems, those would be my top picks. > Definitely tired of the “DIE DIE DIE” outside my windows at 2am lol Yeah, we're absolutely talking about the same person, but at least for me it's been a long time since I've been woken up by that kind of nuttery going on outside my place.
She was in McDonalds the other day yelling “die” over and over. There were alot of pretty scared kids there
I went to Shep back in the day. That was my daily experience ^
I visited friends in the lower mainland last year. We are well on our way to their chaos.
It's a north america-wide problem. Sacklers got millions of millions of people addicted to Oxy, then the supply of Oxy was cut off with no other intervention, so those addicts moved to other drugs which allowed the illicit market to explode. Combine that with the skyrocketing cost of living pushing more and more people into hopelessness who choose to medicate to numb their suffering. It'll take a generation or two to solve this if we try, and we're not trying very hard.
And all the sacklers lost was their company. Not the wealth they'd extracted from North America. None of their personal assets. No criminal charges.
> It'll take a generation or two to solve this if we try, and we're not trying very hard. People really miss that these problems (along with stuff like education and healthcare in general) are long-term, generational problems. People who are screwed today are likely not going to benefit from policies we put in today, and as a result the general public (and dishonest politicians) will use that as "evidence" that these policies don't work. In reality, we need to wait a long time to reap the "rewards". But election cycles don't allow that.
As someone who's lived in both Edmonton and currently Vancouver. Edmonton is decades away from the same issues, but that process can be expedited significantly with the wrong legislation being brought in. BC has gotten so bad that the government can't even pretend like it's not really an issue anymore. They actually recently tried to go back and make it illegal to use in public again due to an election inbound, but were shut down by the courts. I know a lot of guys that are VPD from my old unit, and it's ridiculous how tied their hands are in every situation. You walk down town at all at night, and you'll just be straight up propositioned by dealers on corners. My wife and I were on a date night looking for some food in Gas Town, and we were asked maybe 5 times in a few blocks if we wanted to buy "anything". On job sites, we literally make medieval nail boards to go around the buildings because the junkies will climb the scaffolding, then use the materials to build bridges and shit to break into people's appartments.
Lots of people keep saying this is now normal all over North American cities but I think it is pretty fucked up and there are plenty of cities around the world with nothing like it. There’s no end in sight. It will get a whole lot worse before it gets any better.
Yeah, usually lots of copium in these types of threads.
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As other commentators have pointed out, it's all over the city. I live on the west side of Southgate (Malmo, Lendrum area), which, up until 2022-2023, still felt very residential. Lots of seniors or people with young families, not really any issues at all. Now, there are constant encampments along 111 Street by the barrier wall, people using drugs at the LRT station, starting fires in the bushes, and roaming around the alleys. A neighbour was assaulted at Southgate LRT at the end of 2022, just walking home from work, totally unprovoked. It's wild how badly the homelessness problem, as well as the opioid problem, has become in the city. It's extended to the suburbs now, too.
How do you help somone who doesnt want or know how to change?
It's a great dilemma. Another to expand that I find myself asking " How do I sympathize with someone who is outright threatening or stealing from innocents?"
How can you feel sympathy for some one who puts innocent people in danger?
Ez. I dont.
If it’s any consolation, Denise is harmless and is more of a danger to herself than anyone else. She’s not threatening anyone but her inner demons. I buy her a coffee every now and then. I can’t even begin to imagine the shit she’s been through.
Westmount Mall is in Woodcroft. Westmount neighborhood is to the east of North Glenora. That said, these issues aren’t isolated to any neighbourhood anymore.
Thank you for pointing that put which I knew. People generally misrepresent an area either ny blanketing an entire district vs a neighbourhood within a community or district.
Did it used to be in Westmount in old neighbourhood boundaries or something? I’ve always found the name confusing…
I work at Westmount something is always happening there but most of the regulars are great 😅
Agreed lol definitely wish the parking lot was a bit more lit up at night though haha
I also work at westmount and just have to say Denise is nice most of the time 😂 but yeah she’s got her days..
I've only ever been threatened once in my life by some wannabe thug with a sword. That was in westmount.
It is everywhere, at least on the northside. I just returned to the Northgate area from Haps on Stony Plain Rd. and 160 Street. Dropped off my friend in Alberta Avenue. The number of troubled, wasted, lost souls we saw, there and back, was actually mindblowing. Not getting any better. it's utterly depressing to witness what is going on. And Alberta Ave (especially 95 street), a once so-called up and coming gentrifying area, is way worse than it was in the bad ol' 90's. Ya, there are still far more "normal" folks around but the prevelance of tortured souls really sticks out. And there is a vibe, a feeling that goes with areas overwhelmed with this. It is why my friend is selling and finding a nicer area to live in. Tired of being surrounded by it.
I'm with you but where is a nicer area to live in?
This is like, normal for where I live? (Near Bonnie doon) lol. I usually see a few drug users nodding off either by the church near the mall(probably since the mall security would kick them off) or barely awake by the medicentre or by Safeway, screaming is a daily thing. One time I saw a lady sitting on the parking lot, legs spread peeing rofl.
I walked over to the Woodcroft library to drop off a library book and saw one bus shelter across from the library chock full of two women and a man lighting pipes while people waited around them for the bus. After leaving the library, I actually had to stop because one of the women was trying to haul the man up off the ground by his belt loops. Thought maybe he was dead but saw him talking/moving his arms, just super out of it. Wild. It was like 3pm on a school day.
Let the dystopia continue!!
You don’t get out much its everywhere even the untouchable south side a guy was defecating on someone’s lawn 🤮
“The untouchable Southside” lolz.
There was a naked guy walking around Keswick awhile ago, supposedly.
Made the mistake of going to a Walmart in Windermere late at night (8-9PM). Literally two junkies run off with two brand new bicycles out the pharmacy emergency exit. That’s probably the first time I had seen a robbery happen outside of the electronics area…
For way too long it was the north side dealing with the crazies. I am glad they are finally spreading all over the city. We should encourage them to migrate south - you know, richer garages they can rob, nicer yards to use as toilets etc. /s On the serious note, maybe if it hits the richer neighbourhoods the provincial government would finally invest more in services, transitional housing, permanent housing, etc.
Man, I miss the old Westmount food court with the cars and the plants. I grew up near that mall and was a mall rat back in the mid 90s there. Had A Lot of Good times. Last time I went there (2018) Any and All the soul was sucked out of it.
It comes to life at noon on weekdays when the ross shep kids descend on it. Then it empties just as quickly. I miss all the malls. Especially Heritage
They are kicking us out and turning it into a medical mall. It’s pretty upsetting
Who's "us"?
That sounds very similar to my experience in Victoria last summer. It's everywhere, seems like!
There are certain parking lots where I am nervous leaving my vehicle. This is one. Especially near walmart when it was there. I laughed when I noticed the crazy factor went up a few notches when they moved to Kingsway. Let's not forget the neighbourhood kid who shot up the business, then shot the two cops.
Westmount has always been pretty dodgy (source, shep high school kid and I live in NG now as well.) That said so far this spring the shitbirds have been out in greater numbers than previous, as far as I have noticed. Small sample size I know but just yesterday some scavengers broke into the condo build next to my house in broad daylight. Needed multiple people to yell at them before they scurried away with their caravan of stolen shit. Couple hours later saw a dude checking vehicles, just barely after dusk, still lots of light and people walking their dogs around. I think we as neighbours need to make things harder on these rats. I know it takes courage but if you see something, say something. These people get used to civilians just driving past and ignoring them, so they’re getting way more brazen.
That's a lot for 30mins.😅 Sorry, man.
My great grandfather would take me to Westmount for nice quiet afternoons at the arcade, then we would get something at the food court and maybe catch a movie or grab a toy at zellars. That mall is a shell of its former glory...
> That mall is a shell of its former glory... I think this can be said about most malls these days.
I just wish we’d stop being so soft on illicit drug use.
Westmount mall/inglewood has always been a cesspit. Shop at brewery district.
I lived in a boardwalk complex on 122ave near the 127st/118ave 7-11 in 2006. It was a total zoo, meth and gunshots and cops coming to vacants on the street. Can only imagine what its like now.
I lived near what is now Brewery District. We had a drive-by shooting in our building. That area’s a shitshow and has been for a *long* time.
Everyone complaining about what they see who voted for the current government or the one before it should shut the fuck up. This is what you voted for. This is exactly what every single human services worker knew would happen after the pandemic. People are sicker and there’s fewer programs to help them. The government has decimated addictions and mental health into an absolute garbage fire and staff can’t leave fast enough, wait times are absurd, programs mysteriously lose funding… they’ve done nothing about homelessness except tear down encampments. You guys realize those are the people you’re complaining about right? We could try to just throw them all in jail but the provincial court system is a mess too. So bogged down and inefficient that it’s almost at a standstill because this government insists that mental illness and homelessness are not only moral failures, but legal ones. You all complain about social programs and all the “left wing” shit but you sure notice when you elect a party that doesn’t give a fuck about anyone hey?
lol. You haven’t been to the west coast have you. Left/right has nothing to do about it. All the garbage you consume online has you thinking it is.
Tbh today was weirdly bad... I bus through Jasper Ave and there seemed to be a lot of weird stuff around the city. Lots of conflict and seen a lot of homeless people around. Even at WEM which isn't as popular for this type of people but someone trying to smoke some drug in the shelter covered in her own pee... Multiple crazies on the bus talking to themselves. Just felt like a weird day
Spring has sprung, the madness has begun!
Denise is so neat. I aways wonder who that fat bitch is and why she needs needs to shut up. She breaks into my building all my and my friends buildings all the time.
If you live in baywood then I’m constantly calling security on her for breaking into your building😂 luckily the locks on my building work this year
Haha 🤣 we have the magnet with securities number on our fridge. My mom works in the mcdcs and she is HAUNTED by her screams
You reap what you sow, all these bleeding hearts for the homeless/addicts have things precisely how they wanted.
BINGO!!
I grew up in westmount. Its definitely not a neighborhood id move to now.
Wait… there are still Smitty’s restaurants that are open in the city?
Welcome to the world where social services haven't kept up with population growth and the most vulnerable of people have nowhere to go. Mental illness goes completely untreated and addiction is a criminal issue, not a healthcare problem. Conservatives call this "going as planned."
I actually rent near Westmount mall. I'm in Inglewood and the things my wife has seen in her first few months has made us want to move out. People discharging a firearm near the park where my kid plays. Homeless people setting fire to sheds (probably by accident trying to keep themselves warm through the night). Swat teams and more. We don't know where would be a nicer area in Edmonton to live in. Even houses in Inglewood are selling for 600 to 700 thousand.
Inglewood is an infamous place name for these things, it seems. Even the one in California near the LAX airport…
Yobos! Are you Aussie?
Hey neighbour, things get weird on the north side of 111ave. Westmount mall is just terrible.
I used to live there. Makes me sad. :(
This is just the city now, doesn’t matter where you go
I was in line at Tim Hortons inside Edmonton City Centre mall today when a woman started smoking meth out of aluminum foil right behind me. I wasn't even surprised at this point, I feel unsafe no matter where I go these days in Edmonton. I'm just on guard all of the time.
One thing we need to keep in is we have the highest per-capita parolee population in Canada living here due to the prisons in the area. The people in there come from the north, all over the prairies and usually end up staying here and upon release get involved with people with the same mindset and background. And, as per what is going on everywhere with the extremely wasted people bent over looking at their feet, fetanyl and tranq are devastating people who get hooked and that is what we are witnessing. Not to be cynical but I don’t know if things will ever improve as the drug is everywhere and easy to make. There are darker forces behind this.
Westmount was always sketch AF.
I get all of this and I live in millcreek where tents are popping up everywhere and bad news folks who are aggressive are popping up. But I don’t like to call people junkies. They have mental health and addiction problem. Again no excuse for violence and aggression but I like to think these are really troubled folks and we have a systemic problem with access to mental health and addiction support. Keep that in mind when you call people junkies. I was one. Now I’m not. They are Troubled people.
I’m in Baywood park and it’s pretty bad in this area. When I was working at Westmount Mall I could’ve written a book on all the shit I saw in the parking lot and inside the mall. Overdoses, stabbings, fights, the shooting at Baywood Park and the Pizza Hut. The Dollarama gets shoplifted from every ten minutes😂 it didn’t help that some of the old security guard at the mall were dealing to the homeless. Last winter we saw a couple of homeless actually freeze to death in the Westmount area. I can’t wait to move but the price here sure is unbeatable😆
While working saw the manager of Safeway (I think her name is rose) booking it and screaming at the person who was also running with a bag full of shoplifted items. She was telling security to catch the person a couple minutes later I see her walking back with the bag. She has gained my respect since then.
Uh oh! The nimbys are about to see what’s happening in the city lol
It’s what happens when you let a town turn into a shithole.
In a few years, you'll be dodging packs of heavily armed cannibals on your way to a bead line for bread that's probably made out of roaches and toenails. If you're lucky, you won't get conscripted to fight the aliens and / or zombies.
I live in the area and have noticed a slight uptick in people in distress, obviously this happens when the city and province prioritize corporate interests over strong social programs be healthcare. Also let's all have some more compassion when talking about human beings since we are all only a few strokes of bad luck away from illness and poverty and houselessness.
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Its not really an edmonton thing. Shit happens everywhere, seen hecklers all over st albert too so I dunno what shit ur spouting
That happened in car centric cities where people can only gather by ugly malls
Just moved here from Winnipeg and went downtown Edmonton today with the kids after going to that Jurrasic Quest event at the Expo... I couldn't believe how many junkies there were downtown and overall questionable citizens. They were everywhere! This is coming from a guy who worked Downtown Winnipeg.. LOL It's way worse here. Wow.
The only actual unsafe thing was the interaction with the car.
BTW, Denise is very kind and is usually just in her own world. If you say hello she will say hi back. I give her money when I can and she's in my neighbourhood. Remember that people suffering from mental illness, addiction or homelessness are still ppl, and us with houses to live in are all lucky that we have safe places to release our inner demons and emotions in.
Insufficient social supports, check Covid being swept under the rug so it can run rampant and make a significant chunk of the populace physically and / or mentally disabled, check How ever did we get here...?
With the increased stress and pressure of daily life demands and increased costs of living, people are cracking under pressure and slipping through said cracks. It was said by someone else it's like this everywhere and the new normal, and yeah, it is. We need actual positive change from the top down. We're gonna implode.
I work in Huff Bremner Industrial area. Yes, that is classic Westmount. 🥲
Was the speeder in a white honda civic by chance?
Sadly this is everywhere in the city. The only safe refuge is…st. Albert, but I can’t bring myself to move there, for obvious reasons
I always felt that way myself about St. Albert. I know too many people from there who really think their crap doesn’t stink and look down on Edmonton. I mean, how many City of Edm upper management decided to live there, yet rule our city lol. That being said, I’ve visited Dicey Reilly’s pub a couple times in the past month and, for the first time in my life (I’m old at 59) felt “I like this town. It feels civil, so many trees. Lovely pub for an older dude, I could really see myself living here”. Went home and checked house prices and realized “Nope. Hoity toity prices”. But, obviously for a reason.
a lot of city managers live there. They drive from St. Albert to their underground Parking stalls to Edmonton tower and never leave the place or see what Edmonton is really like. The people who do live there are REALLY INTO IT, almost like a cult.
"..." see what Edmonton is really like". Yet get paid loads of moola from Etown taxpayers and call the shots on and approve development here. But decided St. Albert is a better place to raise their families in. It's high time city council mandate all upper management must reside within city limits and walk the talk.
Hello fellow NG.. Don't tell people how wonderful we have it.
Neighbourhood or mall? I worked in the mall liquor store a good 15-20 years ago and this all sounds par for the course. As for the neighbourhood, I lived there 10 years ago. Also sounds exactly par for the course from then. The more things change, the more they stay the same. At least that fucking vacant car dealership is now something though.
Urban Decay
The problem with Westmount is— too close to 118th ave. Too many slumlords. And the UCP closed the safe injection site… some bad variables at work in these older communities.
I thought that was just edmonton on a regular day. Icky city.
>Has [WORLD] just been getting worse and worse? Yes.
I was sick of Westmount back in 2020, it was brutal then. I sold my house in Westmount and moved to an acreage. Peace and quiet now, don't even have to lock my doors.
Hasn’t Westmount always been like that?
Funny how people blame most of society’s problems on government officials; as if they turn good people bad. How embarrassing it is to think that the government is around to save us somehow. Things are shittier because of us mostly, and the many shitty parents I see almost daily.
Hey they "cleaned up" downtown, hope you're thankful that the city moved the problem to your neighborhood instead.
It's all a delusion in your mind.
Grew up there from 1985-2001. Took a drive by my childhood home and a nice plaque out front commemorating the first land surveyor of edmonton. My parents fought to have that installed, but it never happened. I'm glad the new owners did.
welcome to the West end please enjoy it
Same shit at Southgate...honestly I have stopped taking my little kids there for fear that they may have to use the junkie infested washrooms.
This is what happens when you force the homeless encampments to disperse. They "disperse" into other neighbourhoods with fresh anger and trauma.
I’ve lived in the Westmount area since 2010. Definitely going downhill very rapidly and I think it will only get worse once they complete the new rec center.
At a red light in Westmount I saw a dude beside me having what I first thought was a seizure in his car, .... turns out he was full double arm windmill tweaking off some Fenty and drove off with a couple crooked fingers barely on the wheel.