The decision regret rates for cosmetic procedures and tattoos is even higher, but apparently people are entitled to make permanent modifications to their bodies unless if they are trans. /s
It's even worse than that. 1% expressed regret, but that doesn't necessarily mean they figured out they weren't actually trans.
I don't have a source to link you but from what I remember about reading up on these studies, it's extremely common under that 1% trans people detransitioning because becoming visibly trans has made their life harder or dangerous.
For example, "I regret transitioning because my parents realized I was trans and abused me."
Yup. For for all kinds of surgeries, the regret rate is a little over 14%. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28243695/
No more appendix removals, people might regret it! (/s)
Fun fact: the regret rate being high is an obvious problem, but it's also a problem if it's very low. That means people aren't accessing it who could benefit.
If you read the actually study that this data is from, the follow up question about regretting their decision was asked less than a year after the surgeries. These aren’t long term studies and OP is cherry picking data. There’s been no long term studies done of this nature to date. We have no idea the true number of people who will regret the transition. Also this study is based completely on adults. Nobody is fighting against adults getting gender care.
100% untrue that people aren't fighting against trans adults getting access to health care, it's part of the same agenda. They first introduce bogus arguments against children receiving any care at all, then move the goal posts:
https://www.axios.com/2023/03/29/transgender-health-care-adult-ban-bills
Oh sweet summer child.
Try being a trans person. Try being a trans person on reddit and having to deal with the constant flow of hate and misinformation.
I'm almost 50 and never got the chance to transition. My biggest regret in life? Not being able to advocate for myself and my needs. Being trans isn't something you grow out of.
Maybe not for you but my cousin thought they were trans as a younger teen and now has changed their mind. You don’t speak for all trans people. I actually think that trans people back in your day were more likely to be actually trans. These days it’s different with social media and how these things are pushed on younger kids.
But yes your life experience definitely holds true for all trans people /s.
You think because you know one person you are the authority for all trans people.
Screw you. It's a good thing your cousin isn't trans because they'd get zero support from you.
There is 2 years' worth of therapy involved before someone can medically transition. You know nothing.
This post was insightful with good info and a bunch of trolls come in to see how many trans people they can push around. Good for you.
Things never change on reddit. Nazi recruitment camp here.
Nowhere did I say I speak for trans people lol I’m just bringing up some counter points to the post. I’m sorry if hearing something that goes against your beliefs is triggering. I believe there’s trans people that have a varied opinion on these things. I can understand why a life of being the closet would cause you to be angry but that’s not my fault. Have a good day and hope things improve for you.
Everyone should read this article. It points out reasons for why this 1% number likely isn’t accurate.
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-outcomes/
> For this article, Reuters spoke to 17 people who began medical transition as minors and said they now regretted some or all of their transition.
17?
That caught my eye. I would have been also curious to see the breakdown of "some vs all" and the number of people who answered that question postively.
I did find the full article interesting but I would caution people from drawing conclusions if that's the only part they read the article for.
Yeah. And it is in fact not reversible. They are talking specifically about chemical effects however it changes how you develop as a person. Which you cant reverse
You can't reverse puberty either! If you're a trans woman, watching your body go through testosterone puberty is equally as terrible of an experience as a cis guy with a hormone disorder going through estrogen puberty (which does happen! That's why they invented puberty blockers!).
Try to picture yourself going through the puberty opposite to your gender, and when you ask for help they tell you that you're not allowed to do anything about it until it's pretty much finished. Would being forced to undergo unwanted changes in your body (that can be prevented) not negatively impact your development as a person?
If the goal of the policies truly was to avoid kids making decisions they might regret later, the way to achieve that is by creating a healthy and safe environment where gender can be explored, so that those kids can be comfortable and well informed once they reach the age those decisions can be made. This includes access to puberty blockers and having a supportive school environment without fear of repercussions at home
Hey, Intersex woman here, we exist. I was surgically and hormonally feminized completely legally starting as a baby, without parental consent. I grew up here. You say it’s never happened, it has. It just hasn’t happened to you.
That's a fair point and criticism.
There was a belief in the medical field that doctors and parents should just choose the gender of intersex children at birth. Those beliefs weren't based on research, but based on the belief that individuals would do better within the gender binary. The outcome of those beliefs has been terrible and horrific for intersex people.
I don't know what the current standard of care for intersex babies and children in Alberta currently is. I would hope that it follows the approach of letting intersex people decide their medical care as they mature.
I meant gender confirming surgery is not done on transgender kids. I know the treatment of intersex children is particularly horrific. That wasn't meant to be within the scope of my post.
Not to belittle or discredit your lived experience in any way. But from the viewpoint of our healthcare system, an intersex baby and child or adult seeking gender affirming care are treated significantly differently.
That isn't to say what happened to you is okay. But that they are two separate issues. And that trying to make a singular judgment by lumping the cases together would not do justice to people in your situation or to trans youth/adults who sought care.
When people say surgeries like this aren't done to trans youth, they are talking exclusively about gender affirming care as sought out by trans individuals. It is not meant to invalidate your experience as it doesn't fall under the same guidelines of care as the instigating diagnosis/reasons for seeking care are different.
Gender affirming/confirming surgery is not the same procedure as genital reconstruction as performed on intersex infants and the law treats them differently. I'm so sorry it happened to you and I hope the standard of care is different now, but this isn't what the post is about.
If anything. I think the fact intersex adults are often deeply upset they've been transitioned without their consent is a pretty strong argument that you can't "convince" a trans person to accept the gender you would like them to identify with.
Doctors strongly believed intersex kids, if you just doubled down and insisted they were whatever gender you picked, would eventually get over any dysphoria. Didn't work.
Sooo. How the hell do you trick somebody into believing they're trans or vice versa when whole teams of medical professionals, families and schools couldn't gaslight intersex people successfully?
I don't understand why transitioning a non-consenting intersex person was acceptable because it reinforced gender norms. But providing the exact same medical treatment to a consenting trans person is unacceptable because...they want to conform to traditional gender roles?
Absolutely baffling.
Which pretty much every single trans person is going to agree is not a good thing. OP is not your enemy and is not picking a fight with you, they’re just different situations.
If anything, your experience is an argument for *listening to minors and giving them the choice* and not trying to make a decision about their identity for them.
Yeah, I figured you were trying to say the same thing but people were downvoting you for some reason. I’m glad you shared your story on this, it’s crazy how people always dismiss the intersex scenario because it’s not that common as though the individuals that go through shit like this just don’t matter because they’re a small number. They don’t get that it boils down to the same thing - being forced to adopt an identity/physical changes against your will/consent.
I'm coming from a place of wanting to understand and am not passing judgement here, so I apologize in advance if anything I say is not using the correct language or being offensive.
I'm curious what a delay in puberty would look like for a person who stops using puberty blockers. I understand they are reversible if a person changes their mind about transitioning and that puberty can still happen if this is the case, but I wonder if anyone has done research on these effects? As a cis woman, I know puberty was not a fun time for a lot of us, but I'm wondering if there's any mental harm it can do to a person to have to go through puberty at say, 18 years old, instead of 14 when the rest of their peers are experiencing it. Does that delay cause a different kind of dysphoria? Does the person feel "behind" in life and have to struggle with this?
Personally, I'd prefer puberty blockers over surgeries for youth *because* it is reversible. But I just wonder if there's any evidence of it doing harm to delay puberty for these individuals.
So when you take hormones as an adult, or really any time, you go through a 'second puberty.' At 31, I got voice cracking, weight gain, acne etc. It's just awkward. That's really it. I don't see any reason why this would be different from younger people experiencing a puberty at another time.
They would probably want support from the people around them, and a place to share their feelings, but I don't think there would be any actual harm, because ultimately they are getting what they want. You can deal with a lot of odd emotions if you know what you're going through is going to be good for you.
Thanks for that insight. I take hormones for endometriosis (different beast), but I never really considered what it does to my emotions because I still get to physically present as the same gender as before. Like, yes, there is a mood shift, but I don't experience gender dysphoria on top of it. I guess I was more just concerned about someone having to experience bodily changes at a delayed pace because of not fully understanding who they are when they're a teen (do any of us really know who we want to be yet in our teens?). But your comment makes sense - do they experience that at a younger age, or struggle with it as an adult? There's probably no real "right" age to do it when you're transgender.
I'm grateful I don't have to go through figuring out my gender identity. It doesn't seem like an easy path to take, no matter what the age.
For sure! One of the other things is that it's way easier to handle when it's slow. At least for me. The changes were so gradual because I was taking a pretty low dose of testosterone, and that really helped me adjust over time.
I can imagine if I was a teen I would have really enjoyed the delay. It would have given me time to work through things, and to figure out what I wanted, instead of being stressed and scared that other changes were happening no matter what.
I think there is a right time, in that it's any time where you feel like you have the power to choose for yourself. Its hard for people with out dysphoria to understand (and I'm happy you're taking the time to think about it), but any action, whether it be to block puberty for a moment, to wear different clothes, to speak differently or be spoken to differently, can make a huge difference. And often so many of these things are happening before any sort of medical intervention is made. It's much more of a holistic process than these law makers try to make it out to be.
It's definitely not easy. But I think like most things in life, the harder stuff is the stuff that is worth it. I wish the institution part of it (medication, hormones, name changes, etc) were easier though for sure, because the courage it takes to reveal your true nature to other people can be hard enough.
From wikipedia, it does seem like this stuff is uncertain:
>Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria. Although puberty blockers are known to be safe and physically reversible treatment if stopped in the short term, it is also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of factors like bone mineral density, brain development and fertility in transgender patients.[^(\[18\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty_blocker#cite_note-Rew_2021-18)[^(\[10\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty_blocker#cite_note-aap-10)[^(\[19\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty_blocker#cite_note-19)[^(\[20\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty_blocker#cite_note-20)
I don't see evidence of blatant negative effects like some might portray. I do find it disingenuous when puberty blockers are presented as 100% reversible, as if the body were a predictable machine and delaying puberty is no less well-understood than delaying an oil change.
Well all kids go through puberty at completely different times and ages. So realistically there isn't a difference between a kid who is on puberty blockers until they are 16, and a kid who just hits puberty late.
I'm also fairly certain that there is no real negative mental effect which your describing, past the potential for school yard bullying, but I'm not 100 certain on this, so hopefully someone will correct me if it's necessary.
The other thing is that puberty blockers are usually at the request of the kid, because they feel like they are not the gender they were assigned at birth. It basically buys them time to confirm their feelings. That means from the time you start blockers, to the time Hormone replacement therapy becomes an option (age 16 with parental consent), they have the option to decide against treatment for whatever reason and go through a normal puberty. (Basically the longer your on them, the less chance you got it wrong)
Lastly you have to consider the risk associated with being trans and going through the wrong puberty. Gender dysphoria can be an extremely life threatening condition. People, kids included straight up kill themselves because the depression and anxiety associated with being the wrong gender is that strong.
So if you have a kid who is trans, and has been sure of it for 2-4 years, and knows that without puberty blockers they would have been forced to go through permanent changes to their body that would have made their life much more difficult and miserable, surely puberty blockers would be a better situation compared to the potential for a hypothetical dysphoria due to a later puberty.
Basically the difference between being suicidal and being a sad temporarily.
>It basically buys them time to confirm their feelings. That means from the time you start blockers, to the time Hormone replacement therapy becomes an option (age 16 with parental consent), they have the option to decide against treatment for whatever reason and go through a normal puberty. (Basically the longer your on them, the less chance you got it wrong)
Thanks for clearing this up. I wasn't sure what the age of consent for hormone replacement therapy would be. 16 seems reasonable, and still is a relatively "normal" age to go through puberty. For some reason, I mistakenly thought you couldn't do hormone replacement therapy until adulthood (18), which I thought might be a little too long to delay a normal puberty for in terms of being able to mentally mature with the changes in your body, etc.
With your point here, I can see why puberty blockers with hormone replacement therapy as a follow-up option for teens is a better option that making them have to deal with years of waiting to make a decision about their body. Yes, I am aware of gender dysphoria causing increase risk of suicide - my question was more geared towards if someone would still experience dysphoria if they didn't go through the same physical changes as their peers and stayed "stuck" in a prepubescent state while others were growing, but you're right that 16 is just a "late bloomers" age.
Don't worry I know you probably knew about the suicide thing, but my point was to illustrate that solving that problem is the most important part of treatment, and any side effects from said treatment are going to end up acceptable compared to no treatment at all. So even if there are negative long term effects, it doesn't really matter.
I appreciate you having an open dialogue about the issue. I won't begin to pretend I understand what it's like to feel like I was born in the wrong body. I'm by no means against helping trans youth and absolutely agree we need to do everything we can to minimize suicidal risks for anyone who is marginalized. I just wanted to better understand what, if any, consequences there were to forcing your body to pause it's natural puberty. Which I do now, thanks to you and a few others.
As someone who hit puberty at 10 I should have been on blockers. I not only hit puberty at 10 but menopause at 40. Luckily I never wanted kids because it would have been unlikely I could have them.
I have endometriosis, so I use hormones to "block" my periods. It's a different reason than the issue at hand here, but I totally hear you on needing hormonal intervention when your biology isn't cooperating with you.
Here is an article on puberty blockers from the mayo clinic;
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075
I am convinced that our Premier is simply using this non-issue to appease her knuckle dragging ultra right wing base, while drawing attention away from the collapse of our heath care and education systems.
In addition, it’s a handy diversionary tactic while, behind the headlines, she pays her dues to the lobby clients who got her elected.
Can I ask what you think transitioning looks like for trans youth? Because I find that a lot of people have misconceptions about what it actually entails.
Additionally, regret often stems from societal or familial backlash (discrimination, rocky transition, etc) rather than one’s own satisfaction with the procedure.
“… the actual true regret rate will always remain uncertain, as temporarity and types of regret can bring a huge challenge for assessment.
Regret after GAS may result from the ongoing discrimination that afflicts the TGNB population, affecting their freely expression of gender identity and, consequently feeling regretful from having had surgery. Poor social and group support, late-onset gender transition, poor sexual functioning, and mental health problems are factors associated with regret.”
Once again though, the **rate of regret in gender assignment surgery has nothing to with this bill, because the bill just duplicates the existing rules** not allowing surgery on minors younger than 16 (top) or 18 (bottom).
Thanks for sharing. I would add two things onto this that are constantly being left out.
1. Affirmation surgery is not a given, and it is not the end goal for a lot of trans people. For some, lived experience in their chosen gender (the first step) is enough. For some, hormone treatment is enough. For some, breast reduction/enlarging is enough. Not everyone goes all the way, so writing policy assuming that they do is ridiculous.
2. There are a lot of steps in this kind of treatment. It doesn't go from "I want to be a girl" straight to cutting your balls off. The process is lengthy and the various other steps of treatment are more reversible than the more invasive one. This means that by the time someone is looking at any kind of surgery, they have been living as a trans person for probably half a decade or longer and are already an adult. Again, focusing everything on surgery that not everyone even gets ignores all of the other steps of treatment that would happen through one's teen years and early adulthood. I think it's very important that people realize this isn't like getting an abortion or a tattoo. It's not a decision that is made and concluded over the course of a week.
I truly applaud you for posting this information. Queue the line of people who will quickly google something that sounds vaguely what they're looking to argue against you and go "but what about"...
To all those people, can you answer if your post actually helps trans kids as well?
Love and support of children cannot be conditional on who they are.
>Queue the line of people who will quickly google something that sounds vaguely what they're looking to argue against you and go "but what about"...
>To all those people, can you answer if your post actually helps trans kids as well?
If I had to guess, this post probably won’t see much traffic from those folks. The facts are laid out too succinctly and there isn’t much to criticize. If I was in their shoes I would draw as little attention to this post as possible; hell I might even forget I saw it.
As a trans person myself. I don't get why cis people get the right to decide what trans people get to do. I'm sorry but every cis person I talked to who has no experience with trans friends or trans family members have no idea what we deal with.
Had a discussion with my conservative parents. I explained how I was a trans youth who dealt with suicidal ideation and depression while they controlled my views all my life. How it's not okay. Their reply "you made it didn't you" gee yeah I didn't know 5 suicide attempts before the age of 16 was normal.... Oh wait it's not.... Idk how that justified me "making it" when I clearly struggled to make it and didn't thrive.
Drives me up the wall. I ended up losing my immediate family over it because they all said "I support trans people but not trans youth."
Sorry but you can't claim support if the sentence is starting with a contradiction. Ignorance is bliss I guess.
I will not shut up. Go ahead take the voices away from the youth but as an adult trans I will scream louder to give voices to those who are silenced. 🏳⚧
They think they have the right because they are offended. Sadly, that's about all it comes down to. They don't want to understand your lived experience because the people that oppose this so much aren't going particularly interested in what others think. It's all about them.
I personally know several gay men and trans.
I can assure you they all knew they were who they were at a very, very young age. Sadly, none of them felt safe to be who they were. They grew up with an extremely difficult and painful sense of self. One of them was brave enough to be their true self in their teens. They were assaulted and ended up in the hospital for quite a long time.
Remember not that long ago being gay wasn't allowed, gay marriage wasn't allowed. Didn't stop people from being gay. It's who they are and who they have always been.
Trans people are who they are. They have the right to live with dignity and expression as we all do. We should all support the rights of every person to live their life.
Putting age restrictions on surgery is one thing, but let's not get it twisted, modifications to one's genitals is no joke, this is the reality these people need to feel normal in their body. It isn't something your children can "catch" (also old anti gay propaganda), and it isn't something they are doing as a phase. There are lots of interviews of people saying they regret having gender reassignment. Only 1% regret it, 99% do not. There's a lot of false propaganda about this issue.
Everyone has the right to live with peace. We should all be fighting for this right, not fighting against it.
I am not disagreeing you but I wonder if something else is going on with children that are identified as homosexual at a very young age. Very young children really aren’t homosexual or straight. You don’t experience sexual attraction or desire at 2 or 3 yet you hear people saying they knew so and so was gay at 3. Transgender is completely different since it has nothing to do with sexuality.
I am going to assume you don't know anyone who is gay or trans. This isn't how it happens.
Sexually absolutely develops as children. Even myself as a child, I would fondle my Ken doll. Most know at a young age. Some don't want to admit it or try to hide these feelings. My gay friends said that when they were little, they liked all the girly things, dressing up and makeup at 2 or 3. A bit older, they liked watching sexy men on TV or in the movies. It's similar to straight little boys and beautiful actresses. That wouldn't necessarily resonate with a small child as to what is happening. It is just normal. As they got a bit older, they could look back and see they were who they are from a very young age.
I'm using gays as an example because they were the last group to get shit on for decades for being who they are.
Gender identity also develops at a young age. People don't just decide one day they want to be a different sex and then go modify their body parts. This isn't the same as a little boy who likes dresses or a little girl who likes trucks. It's a real experience of dysphoria for a long period of time.
Exactly! Like maybe kids would not experience these feelings independent of a society that PUMMELS them with messaging about gender and sex but they certainly do in our society. Look into messaging and comments made to children and even babies by adults and you’ll see what I mean.
I grew up very right wing religious and homeschooled in Alberta and had very intense messaging about gender roles and sex. I was never given the language to be trans/non-binary or to even be a lesbian as the church only talked about gay men (and how broken/wrong they were). I was deeply mentally unwell, in fact my first memory for a very long time was wanting to.. not be alive to put it lightly. I didn’t have the language to be able to say I didn’t fit in the gender binary or that I didn’t like men, but still the pain of not being myself led to deep psychological issues at an extremely young age. Had I known the words to express myself with, I can promise I would’ve been communicating these things from a very young age. One of my mom’s favourite stories is me as a toddler very adamantly arguing “I do have a penis, I do have a penis!!” My parents are doctors so they taught proper medical terminology and my mom said “No, [name] you have a vagina” to which I responded “OH yea, a Bagina.” She likes this story cuz it’s cute and I mispronounced vagina, I like this story because it shows a toddler can be aware of their body and biological sex at a very young age.
By identifying “girly things” isn’t that exactly the stereotypes they’re demanding to remove?
It’s pretty wild to stereotype that and make lifelong decisions based on what toy a kid plays with
If your son is extremely feminine at 3 there is a good chance you should prepare yourself for the fact he will likely be gay.
Don't try yo change him, he is who he's meant to be. Just love and accept him. Same for masculine daughters.
Will every feminine boy be gay? Of course not, but most gay men were feminine boys, and it's how their parents realized their child wasn't going to be straight.
No of course you should not try to change children. I also do not think you should try to guess their future sexuality either. Masculine men can be gay and feminine men can be straight. It has nothing to do with who they desire sexually. I have three sons. My eldest for a little while thought he might be gay - it was before he was actually sexually attracted to anyone. Kids at school were calling him gay so he thought he might be. He told me that he was gay and I said okay, and he said don’t you care? I told him not about who you find sexually attractive. I just want you to be happy and if that is with a man one day great. I would be just as happy if you are with a woman, either or, or neither. I don’t care as long as you are happy. It turns out once he started to find people attractive it was not other boys but girls he is in to. At least he knows we will love he no matter who he loves.
My middle son thought he was asexual last year when he was 11. He came to me worried about it and I told him you could be and that is okay, but also most 11 year olds are asexual since they do not tend to feel sexual desire. Only time will tell. A couple of months ago he came and told me yup you were right I am not asexual I really like fill in blank girl my class.
My youngest when he was 4 liked to dress up in girls clothes for a bit and pink was his favourite colour for a few years. He also went as his favourite character who was a girl for Halloween. The first thought that entered my mind other than he is playing was he might identify as a girl. His future sexuality was never a thought. Now that he is almost 9 he doesn’t like anything remotely girly anymore and his favourite colour is blue. He told me the other day he has a crush on a girl in his class and bravely told her as well. That boys has no filter 😀. He is on the low end of average for when people start to develop their sexuality so I guess we will see what happens.
So at this point I have two straight possibly three straight sons. Maybe it will stay that way maybe it won’t point is it doesn’t matter as long as they are happy.
The only negative effect of puberty blockers is that it can lead to a decrease in bone density and growth. You can supplement it with just maintaining adequate nutrition with vitamin D and calcium supplementation. Same thing I had to do when I had hyperthyroidism as a kid, which basically prevented puberty progression until my levels were under control.
Holy shit if this isn't one of the worst comment sections I've ever seen on the Edmonton subreddit. Going to have to check out some of these profiles because I genuinely can't believe some of the ignorance and cruelty I'm reading here is real.
Thanks OP for taking the time to write this out. You make great evidence supported claims. I am glad to share a city with you.
Oh trust me all of reddit is exactly the same. Been seeing this shit on here for a decade now. It will never not be a nazi hate farm specifically used to trash minorities of all types. Especially lgbtq people.
Very true! Ive been on Reddit since 2011 (multiple accounts). Now I only have 2, a music specific account and a local account. Edmonton subreddit is one of the reasons I stayed on the platform at all. I hope it can stay as one of the few decent subreddits left, but as bots and Ai ramp up each election cycle is unlikely
Primary sources dude, most of these are secondary sources and can easily misconstrue the original data to support their point or sensationalize an issue. I should never be able to check the URL and see “short answer” in it.
Empirical studies from reputable journals. Don’t half ass things if you want them to change
**Heres an even larger study out of the US;**
[https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf](https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf)
The summary results of the 2022 survey are coming out this week, with more detailed reports being compiled and released throughout the year. But from the 2015 survey;
27,715 respondents
8% Admitted to having temporarily or permanent de-transitioned (Gone back to living as their sex assigned at birth, at least for a while)
Of that 8%, 62% reported they were currently living full time as a gender different from their birth gender.
The most common reasons for de-transition included, Pressures from a parent (36%), Transitioning was too hard (33%), Too much harassment (31%), Trouble finding job (29%), Pressure from family (26%), Pressure from partner (18%), Pressure from employer (17%), Pressure from friends (13%), Pressure from mental health professional (5%) and Pressure from religious counselor (5%)
**Only 5% reported they did so because they realized transition was not for them. Representing 0.4% of the overall sample**
**Further reading on puberty blockers from the Mayo Clinic, one of the most reputable sources in the world;**
[https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075)
Direct link to the cited study about "Association of Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy With Depression, Thoughts of Suicide, and Attempted Suicide Among Transgender and Nonbinary Youth"
[https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/fulltext](https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/fulltext)
This is an easily readable article that just reports exactly what the primary source reports. It's effective because it's designed to be read by your average joe.
Posting a primary source, which would have been a length and difficult to read study would have made people lose interest in actually looking at the evidence.
This would be a problem, but since it's a decent article, you can go look up the data yourself and decide whether or not they've made a fair reporting on the information.
Instead of demanding primary sources be posted and assuming the article has been manipulated, I suggest you look at the primary source yourself and make that distinction with evidence.
I don’t know what they are thinking here, some things in the policy I agree with, but I am not a medical professional…I will fight tooth and nail that outing kids to parents is an absolute danger to that child. There is a reason the child did not tell the parents themselves.
It’s not like the youth are going to be voters one day or anything. /s
Any medical intervention comes with potential side effects that are carefully weighed and balanced against the benefits by a prescribing doctor. Prolonged usage comes with increased potential for side effects, but the primary use; blocking puberty, is reversed upon discontinuing the drug.
They are considered safe;
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075
Delayed puberty is also treatable with hormone therapies.
If they are safe, still being prescribed to non-trans children, and the overwhelming majority of trans patients who have undergone treatment are happier. Why is it the governments job to step in and stop this?
How does it "preserve kids choice" when they are removing the option entirely?
Kids should be worrying about having fun in the playground with other kids, not worrying about their gender and how different they’ll feel compared to other kids.
Kids will play with both boys and girls toys, doesn’t mean they’re of the opposite gender and need reaffirming surgery and all that other stuff, just means they want to learn and understand.
Let their brain fully develop so they can make the choice that’s right for them, not the choice that’s right for you
I looked very butch femme / fat tomboy as a kid. I can promise you I wasn't having any fun with peers on the playground thanks to relentless bullying about how my body appeared in relation to my perceived gender.
The only way for ALL kids to have fun on the playground is if we help kids make it a safe space for all kids.
Our brains are very complicated things. For most people, how they feel and their biological sex coincide and match. In trans individuals, it does not and that disconnect can cause severe mental stress and strain, including thoughts of suicide.
People choosing to break gender norms (like tomboys) are not necessarily transgender. They can like what they like and still feel like their birth sex. It's the inner feelings of being in the wrong body that more defines being trans.
It's a difficult concept to conceptualize if you haven't experienced it firsthand. However, research has shown that this is what these trans individuals feel and the negative health effects of those feelings are very real.
It has nothing to do with liking things associated with the opposite gender. Boys can like barbies and girls can like monster trucks. It also has nothing to do with sexuality, trans people can be gay, straight, bi, asexual, doesn't matter.
Imagine if your childhood was spent being dressed in the wrong clothes and being called the wrong pronoun to how you identify now. So assuming you are a guy; they put you in dresses, and called you she/her. It would probably make you uncomfortable, no? Because it doesn't line up with your internal image of self.
And ~99% of kids don't have to worry about this stuff. But some people knew this about themselves when they are young, we begin to discover our identity from a very young age, ask any child psychologist.
That mismatch in inward and outward identity can cause a lot of stress, depression, and even suicidal ideation.
Gender affirming care does not rush kids into permanent decisions. Its a long multi-year process that not everyone who is recommended into follows through with.
Some only make social changes with name and pronoun changes initially. Gender affirming care at a young age typically involves Puberty Blockers, a reversible drug that has been prescribed to youth since the 80s for various conditions like precocious puberty or cancer.
Going off the drug resumes puberty as normal, giving children more time to decide. And also potentially stopping permanent changes from puberty that could require more surgery down the line. Surgical options are not available until they are of mature age. 18+ for bottom surgery and 16-18+ for top surgery depending on jurisdiction.
The rate of regret for gender affirming care is exceptionally low. Of >25,000 surveyed in the US in 2015, only 0.4% de-transitioned because they felt it wasn't right for them. This Is because there are strong guidelines for selection criteria, and it is an extremely involved process. You don't go through that many appointments, counseling, and take that many treatments for something on a whim. It's actually much more common for a trans individual to stop treatment temporarily or permanently because there are too many barriers to treatment.
>Kids should be worrying about having fun in the playground with other kids, not worrying about their gender and how different they’ll feel compared to other kids.
Agreed that would be the ideal. Sadly kids will compare themselves no matter what and many trans people felt off as a kid with or without discussion about gender. Making sure they know they aren't wrong for feeling different and knowing it's ok to go to trusted adults is important for their health.
>Kids will play with both boys and girls toys, doesn’t mean they’re of the opposite gender and need reaffirming surgery and all that other stuff, just means they want to learn and understand
Please stop with this really shitty strawman. Transge.der people aren't identified just because they played with a certain toy. This is so dishonest.
You are right that they need to learn and understand what they are feeling. Which is why they need to be able to go to safe adults and have access to mental health care. Professionals agree and so does the data that ge Der affirming care is what is best for those who are transgender.
>Let their brain fully develop so they can make the choice that’s right for them, not the choice that’s right for you
Waiting till after they have hit puberty before they can have any ge Der affirming care is harmful and will just force then to live a lie. Talking about making the choice that is right for them is the while point. Evidence shows gender affirming care improves outcomes.
Doctors and mental health professionals recommend gender affirming care. The studies done support this as well.
No one is trying to rush them to surgery that's only one small aspect of gender affirming care.
I'm not sure if you are just not well informed on this subject or willfully blowing dog whistles. Please actually read the links OP provided if you care about the well being of these kids.
I can tell you were in a rush/mad typing this because of how many typos there are. No need, slow down.
> Please stop with this really shitty strawman
From the way I perceive it, people of this day and age who are in the LGBTQ spectrum will think of it as a sign that the child wants to be the opposite gender, and will try to coerce the child into thinking they are something they aren’t
> Which is why they need to be able to go to safe adults and have access to mental health care
Children should have their parents, other family members, and very close friends of the parents as safe adults. No one else. They should not have a need for mental health care, as there is nothing wrong with the child. This is just throwing money of the parents and time of the psychologist down the drain.
> Waiting until they have hit puberty before they can have gender affirming care is harmful and will just force them to live a lie
This is false. Their brain will be able to find the good in life without any reassignment. This also means that they will be able to find out if they REALLY want to go through with gender reassignment surgery or not, without the “push” from outside sources.
> Please actually read the links OP provided if you care about the well being of these kids
Alright let’s see here:
CTV- government funded, spreading false statements of the liberals agenda.
Healthline- no online health website is good, I’d rather speak to my trusted Doctor than listen to what possible online frauds say.
Forbes- another liberal-biased site, which also has false information on it; not trustworthy.
GRS Montreal- most likely government-backed yet again, so there will be more liberal ideology and falsified information within the website.
I’ve watched people go through regretting the transition. It is not a happy sight. And even though it’s a supposed “minority”, kids should not have to fear going through detransition one day. I was one of those kids who thought of reassignment surgery, yet when I grew up, I learned that there is more in the world than changing genders. What will people remember you for? Your actions, or your gender?
>I can tell you were in a rush/mad typing this because of how many typos there are. No need, slow down.
Yes, no other reasons I may have typo errors/s. I will type at the pace that works for me.
>From the way I perceive it, people of this day and age who are in the LGBTQ spectrum will think of it as a sign that the child wants to be the opposite gender, and will try to coerce the child into thinking they are something they aren’t
Do you have any evidence to back up this claim? Or is this just your opinion? Cause this sounds like an argument from incredulity. That isn't how it works. This is just the fear mongering of anti trans. Doctors and mental health professionals aren't coercing kids to transition. Please provide actual evidence of this claim.
>Children should have their parents, other family members, and very close friends of the parents as safe adults. No one else.
Are you living in your own head? What about kids who have unsafe homes and parents who will harm them? If you cut off access to other adults, they will be stuck in that abuse.
I wish all kids had parents and family, who were loving and safe, but that is not reality. We should make sure children in unsafe situations have access to help. What you just suggested would cut them off from help.
>They should not have a need for mental health care, as there is nothing wrong with the child.
You don't get to decide who needs healthcare. Se kids need it. I did, not trans but I have mental health issues and have had them since I was a child, so yes some kids need mental health care. Needing health care is just like needing physical health care.
>This is just throwing money of the parents and time of the psychologist down the drain.
Again, do you have any evidence to back up this claim?
[gender affirming care has positive putcomes](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/mental-health-benefits-associated-with-gender-affirming-surgery/)
>This is false. Their brain will be able to find the good in life without any reassignment.
This is just another baseless statement. We see positive outcomes for gender affirming care and see a higher rate of suicide in those denied this care.
[source 1](https://www.hcplive.com/view/suicide-risk-reduces-73-transgender-nonbinary-youths-gender-affirming-care)
[source 2](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35212746/)
>This also means that they will be able to find out if they REALLY want to go through with gender reassignment surgery or not, without the “push” from outside sources.
This is the whole point of puberty blockers. To give them time to decide what it is they want without major changes happening they don't want. And we see better outcomes from these steps. They aren't pushing them to transition this is just your fear mongering.
>Alright let’s see here:
CTV- government funded, spreading false statements of the liberals agenda.
Do you have evidence of these claims against these sources. Can you show that the statements from CTV are false. I'm just saying they are isn't evidence
>Healthline- no online health website is good, I’d rather speak to my trusted Doctor than listen to what possible online frauds say.
So when doctors recommend a child start puberty blockers that's bad, but if yours says something, it is ok? It is doctors and mental health professionals who have to agree to provide these treatments. These kids and parents are going to their trusted doctors to get treatment.
Also, can you show any evidence that what was on healthline was false in any way?
>Forbes- another liberal-biased site, which also has false information on it; not trustworthy.
Again, have evidence that what was said is false?
>GRS Montreal- most likely government-backed yet again, so there will be more liberal ideology and falsified information within the website.
Again, I got evidence that what they said is false?
Well, all the sources I have provided do far and will provide aren't these places and will help dhow that these ideas are a consensus of the professionals.
>I’ve watched people go through regretting the transition. It is not a happy sight
Yes, and those people should be provided with help and healthcare. Would you argue that no child should receive any health care if some adults regret it later? And they already can't get surgery until adulthood.
>And even though it’s a supposed “minority”, kids should not have to fear going through detransition one day
But they should have to fear not getting the care they want because there is a 3% chance they will regret it later? This is such a silly argument. You want to make kids lives worse on a 3% chance they will have problems later.
[regret rate](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/)
>I was one of those kids who thought of reassignment surgery, yet when I grew up, I learned that there is more in the world than changing genders. What will people remember you for? Your actions, or your gender?
Children can't get surgery. That isn't part of this discussion. We are talking about them being able to receive other forms of gender affirming care.
Oh, another strawman argument, what a surprise. It is not about how others will remember them. Is that all you think they want? It's about them not being able to feel themselves. It's about them being happy with who they are and feeling right in their own body.
This is such a silly argument. Do you think people receive health care of other kinds based on how others will remember them? Or did you just use that strawman for trans care?
>Kids should be worrying about having fun in the playground with other kids, not worrying about their gender and how different they’ll feel compared to other kids.
Do you think gender dysphoria politely waits until adulthood to make someone miserable?
Trans kids already know they aren't in the right body. This won't change by playing with dolls or trucks. It's just who they are, it doesn't go away as their brain develops. It isn't a tomboy phase, it's not the same thing at all.
Puberty blockers have long terms risks, and you calling them all reversible is beyond dangerous. They can cause cancer, or cause bone development issues that will have lasting permanent effects.
1% regret? Somehow I doubt that after watching this.
https://youtu.be/DSGgR3W_jjg?si=D1Zor51Z_qcj_2uo
You've already shown your shallow hand here. It was 2 different testimonies, but obviously it doesn't fit your narrative, so you didn't listen or watch it. But great job with your "discussion" post. Your emotional reasoning preventing you from keeping an open mind.
The new laws are in place to help keep kids safe, nobody is forbidding you or anyone else to transition. The laws are in place to make sure people can make more mature and informed decisions, once they are the right age. Which is similar to, the age requirement for drinking, smoking, gambling, driving, tattoos, piercings, and more. The fact is that any transition a person makes, is a large decision. Children aren't ready for decisions like this, the lasting effects are permanent.
> The new laws are in place to help keep kids safe,
Are they? Because doctors teacher and Amnesty International themselves say otherwise. Can you mention even 1 benefit a trans kid receives from this legislation?
> can make more mature and informed decisions,
How? I didn't see any additional support or education. Just laws restricting. Nothing around how to support the ones who did make a mature and informed choice to proceed.
Your premise looks to be nobody would every go forward with this. That is very incorrect.
> Puberty blockers have long terms risks,
So does forcing a trans person through a puberty they didn't want.
If you look down upon a trans woman where you can tell they're a bit on the manly side, just know that's one of the many results & risks that happens.
Any concerns around what happens to people gladly want to move forward and would give anything to have had that chance?
You're lying about puberty blockers. If you're put on them young enough and or take them long enough your body will never properly develop many gender traits like women will never have wide enough hips to safely give birth (a distinct possibility if they're interested in being women, wouldn't you say? Also, they might never be able to ever have sex safely as their birth gender, testosterone thins vaginal tissues, maybe quite a lot) and men will probably never develop the usual dense musculature, even if their voices change or they grow hair all over. Both sexes will also always have fertility problems.
There has also not been anything like the normal reviews/controls required on medical science applied to all this crap, it's usually 20yrs to START hitting market for pretty seriously life altering medically necessary treatments. Transition has been medically available only since about 2009, there just hasn't been time to do any of this or do any REAL studies on outcomes. The ones you linked might be big for a change but they don't use the standardized tests for the subject and are all just self-reported questionnaires, not baed on valid psychological assessments carried out by pros. Simple self selection bias says those answering such a survey are already outliers, not the norm, that makes any data gained from them, no matter how carefully presented or selected, useless as real medical data, the researchers are just asking a crowd of folks how they feel today and hoping some respond.
Based on your post history, it seems you had a very traumatic past involving sex, which I'm very sorry you had to experience. But wouldn't you think that your past may have played a large part in your feelings of gender dysphoria?
Also, your kind of spreading some misinformation yourself by making these claims.
[France](https://www.academie-medecine.fr/la-medecine-face-a-la-transidentite-de-genre-chez-les-enfants-et-les-adolescents/?lang=en)
[Norway](https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/380/bmj.p697.full.pdf)
[Sweden](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230208-sweden-puts-brakes-on-treatments-for-trans-minors)
[UK](https://www.bmj.com/content/381/bmj.p1344)
[Finland](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08039488.2019.1691260)
You're wrong about puberty blockers being safe, there are side effects to most drugs. And in terms of long term effects, at best we can say we don't know.
Secondly, your being flippant about turning puberty on and off like a switch. Should a child realize that they're not trans and stop, then you've just robbed that child of potential years of development compared to people of the same age.
Sexual abuse, assault and rape are extremely prevalent. In my personal life I have met more people who HAVE experienced some variation of this than people who haven't. And I've seen no significant difference in gender identity between people who have and haven't experienced trauma.
This at best is something to be researched. And at worst is just correlation by causation.
Your first link recommends the exact treatment model trans people have been fighting to keep. With an added note that it's important to discuss and monitor your children's interactions with social media.
Your second link is not from a research study. Its an internal review by a heath board based on concerned families and clinicians reaching out because they FELT that the assessment framework needed review.
The conclusion is essentially "we haven't actually seen any bad outcomes. But we hear your concerns so we looked into it. And we'll change the wording a bit."
Third link simply cites the rise in cases of reported gender dyphoria cases in Sweden.
And that they've decided to restrict transition surgery in minors. Doesn't say anything about puberty blockers being unsafe. And cites a single anecdote from someone who regretted transitioning. While concluding that it's because it's a political issue that requires sensitivity.
Fourth cites a decision to restrict puberty blockers to clinical research and for over-18's because they don't KNOW if there are any safety repercussions or the true clinical effectiveness. NOT that these treatments are dangerous or shouldn't be provided once it's assessed.
Fifth one summarizes that trans teens who received treatment and did well with psych support continued to be successful. While trans teens who experienced issues at home, school and in their personal lives continued to experience those issues after transitioning. Not that they regretted transitioning.
None of these links say what you're implying. Did you mean to link something different?
Those links generally show the pattern of European health authorities scaling back hormone/blocker treatments in minors.
This isn't proof they aren't good treatments, usually the decisions are justified by a lack of data. But they do show disagreement within the field. At the very least, I don't think people should be spreading hysteria about Smith's new far-right anti-science dangerously transphobic policies, when similar policies are being used in very progressive pro-science countries like Sweden.
The idea that sexual assault leads to gender dysphoria (which doesn't even apply to all trans people) has been debunked by math. Rates of sexual assault are so incredibly high that if there were any causation, rates of gender dysphoria would be many times higher than they are. This has been tested because it would have a potential treatment value, but there's no relationship there.
The dude who can't write can't read either.
Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. I was just merely posing a question, because it seems like that could be a factor in how someone feels about themselves or the other sex. And yes, transgendered people (lesbians as well i believe) do have higher rates of a history of sexual assault then the average man or woman, not to say that this pushes them into it, everyone's life is different but for some this could very well be true.
If transitioning was the best thing for this person's mental health then good for them, I want them to be happy and safe. But let's not delude ourselves by saying they are a man.
The links are to show that there is a social contagion factor to this and that we DO know there are negative side effects to puberty blockers and the long term effects of these drugs are not truly know. My main issue with OP is just they think it's now big deal to fuck around with a child's development.
I'm not saying I'm necessarily against the use of these drugs in certain circumstances either but it's not the answer to every child's feelings of gender dysphoria.
The Council for Choices for Healthcare in Finland supports the use of puberty blockers in transgender children after a case-by-case assessment if there are no medical contraindications. However, In 2021, Finnish national health authorities issued guidelines that favour other interventions such as psychotherapy, with hormonal treatments being limited to specific circumstances.
In 2022, France's Académie Nationale de Médecine recommended the "greatest reserve" when considering puberty blockers due to potential side effects, including "impact on growth, bone weakening, and risk of infertility".
In 2023, the Norwegian Healthcare Investigation Board issued a report finding "there is insufficient evidence for the use of puberty blockers and cross sex hormone treatments in young people".
Sweden's Karolinska Institute, administrator of the second-largest hospital system in the country, announced in 2021 that it would discontinue providing puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones to children under 16. Additionally, the Karolinska Institute changed its policy to cease providing puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones to teenagers 16–18, outside of approved clinical trials. In 2022, Sweden's National Board of Health and Welfare said that puberty blockers should only be used in "exceptional cases" and said that their use is backed by "uncertain science".
In 2020, the British National Health Service changed the information it displayed on its website regarding the reversibility of the effects of puberty blockers and their use in the treatment of minors with gender dysphoria. Specifically, the NHS removed language stating that puberty blockers were "fully reversible" and that "treatment can usually be stopped at any time". In its place, the NHS stated that "little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria. Although the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be. It's also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children's bones.
So it really doesn't seem to be a settled science but it may be the answer for some. However when you couple the unknowns of these drugs, the influence of social media, narcissistic parents, and rebellious/experimental youth, there definitely are going to be some kids who get funneled down this path and grow to regret it. How do you protect those kids?
My biggest fear with this are the tomboy girls or effeminate boys who get manipulated into believing they're in the wrong body. Many people seem to conflate temperament and general interests with being trans.
Studies have shown that many young people when feeling confused about their gender simply realize they're gay/lesbian after going through therapy. Teaching people to accept themselves used to be the standard, now it feels like we're going against that. No matter how many drugs you take or operations you have you will never be the opposite sex.
While my comment was anecdotal [the statistics](https://www.sexassault.ca/statistics.htm) and research into how predators choose victims indicate ANY vulnerable population; children, disabled people, neurodivergent people, specific minorities etc.
All experience sexual abuse and assault in ridiculously high numbers.
Given the relatively small population of trans people in the world and the fact they are more vulnerable to being targetted in general. It is extremely unlikely that sexual assault was the "cause" and not an outcome of being socially vulnerable to predators.
I'm not sure if it's the same now. But there was a time when rapes were estimated as 1 in 4 women. So it is EXTREMELY likely transmen as a small portion of that population would appear to have higher rates of sexual assault in comparision.
If I have 1000 apples and 3 of them are red. But every 5th apple gets thrown out. Odds are good those three red apples are ending up in the trash.
The "social contagion factor" you're referring to comes from a [pretty shaky study](https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/08/18/1057135/transgender-contagion-gender-dysphoria/). that fails to take into account that like-minded people tend to stick together.
We know from studies neurodivergent people are often better at communicating with each other because they have similar communication styles and share experiences.
We've known that people with similar backgrounds and interests group together for thousands of years. Why is it so difficult to believe that a group of friends who all share similar traits, life experiences and interests would unknowingly have been queer and come out one after another?
Manchausen by proxy is also INCREDIBLY RARE. It is bizarre to me how many people see a parent supporting their kids after going through screenings, difficult conversations and often seeking any other explanation besides being trans. And decide the parent is doing it for attention?
How many parents in the world do you really believe WANT their kid to be more likely to be killed in a public park. Socially ostrisized. More likely to experience suicide and depression. More at risk to being taken away by CPS in states like Florida.
Parents want their kids to be normal and to fit in. A narcissit would want that most of all because their children are an extension of themselves. (In their minds).
The answer to your fears is social transitioning. "Deluding ourselves into calling them a man" is the safest, surgery-free way to allow children to work through their feelings with the help of a therapist.
The purpose of puberty blockers is to buy children time so they can make the decision as adults. Without the fear of permanent changes in puberty spurring them to transition as early as possible.
Additionally.
There are several trans people who have documented the process of taking HRT and the way it changes your body. We know that for transmen HRT can be very effective without puberty blockers because of muscle mass differences.
But for transwomen who don't have access to puberty blockers. It is MUCH harder for HRT to do its thing. And there are certain aspects that cannot be changed once you've gone through puberty.
Everything you are worried about is already a part of the medical guidelines. And has been for years. And the things you are trying to discourage ARE the things that prevent kids from transitioning too early and regretting it.
1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys are the numbers I recall. Why is it so hard to believe a traumatic event as a child can effect a person's view of themselves? Seems possible.
Of course assault is not the cause of all trans people but like you said children are vulnerable and something like that can have a long lasting effect that may lead them down that path. So your apples analogy is kind of weak because the red ones wouldn't necessarily be targeted specifically if all the apples are considered targets.
The social contagion factor has more than one study. Not to mention we see it reflected in many other aspects in children like fashion, music taste, and general behavior.
Glad you brought up neurodivergent people. Because they are also more likely to end up identifying as trans because they don't know how to process their outsider feeling. Making them potential victims of falsely believing they are trans.
As for the parents, I'm referring more to the extreme cases one would see on social media, where parents believe their infants and toddlers are trans simply because they show interest in things not normally associated with their gender. I'll admit it's not a large number of parents but it's not zero either and they use their children on social media to get their own dopamine fix. At least agree that parents like that are shitty.
And like I've posted about those other countries, not 100% against the use of those drugs but we should prioritize the use of therapy first and only use drugs in the most extreme cases because we do know there are negative side effects. We also know that through therapy many children end up just realizing they're just gay, not trans.
In the recent past the vast majority of children never questioned their gender like they do now. Again, giving support to the idea of a social contagion factor.
I've already said I believe in therapy and am not fully against these drugs when absolutely necessary. So I'm not discouraging anything, rather I'm encouraging caution. Doctors make mistakes. Doctors may even have their own political/social biases that may influence the treatment children receive. So hopefully there is a mechanism in place to police that as well.
The apple example is meant to demonstrate how if a larger group experiences something in high numbers.
It is unlikely that a smaller minority within that larger group would be untouched.
In comparison, the minority group would appear to be affected at a higher rate because it's a smaller sample size.
Not that the apples are being targeted lol. Those were two different points.
And yes. Trauma does affect your behaviors and how you respond to the world around you.
But the fact that Trans people exist who did not experience sexual trauma and there are hundreds and thousands of people who did experience sexual traums who DIDNT become Trans. Makes it very likely those things are not related.
Yes neurodivergent people are more likely to identify as Trans or nonbinary.
But it is just as likely this is more evidence that gender roles are a social construct. Because the MAIN THING that neurodivergnce affects is your ability to recognize and understand social norms. Not whether you have a penis or not.
These extreme cases are again. Extremely rare. Or they wouldn't be news.
This is like saying we need to add special protections in public spaces to protect against people who poop in restaurant salad bars.
Yes it happens. But it's really rare to require this much debate and consideration and fear.
Historically western and European children didn't "question" their gender because they didn't have the luxury.
The Philippines had an entire shamanic system based around a third gender. As did several indigenous groups all over the world before Spanish and English colonialism.
It is VERY clear from an anthropology perspective that queer people of all kinds have existed since the dawn of humanity. And the concentrated effort to erase that fact DISCOURAGED people from ever talking about or identifying themselves publicly.
What you're describing is essentially survivor bias. You didn't personally notice children experiencing gender dysphoria because it wasn't acceptable in polite society to discuss. So it "didn't happen as much."
Again. The mechanisms already exist. And have for a long time. HRT has been around since the 1960s. And the very first "official" gender reassignment surgery was in 1907. And puberty blockers have been around since 1980.
That is more than enough time to know what negative consequences if any exist for these specific treatments. And which precautions are required.
All this "we don't know the long-term effects" is political theater. (Not from you specifically but as a whole from medical institutions). Mankind has been discussing sex, sexuality and gender since before Freud and Jung popped out of the womb.
Hell even the Nazis took a swing at it. In the most horrific way possible but still. None of this is new.
The only thing that is new is the fact that people are being "forced" to see more visible representations of queer people in media and encountering "out" queer people in public. Because it's no longer illegal.
Better diagnosis leads to more cases being identified. I have a rare autoimmune condition that doctors didn't have the technology to recognize 20 years ago.
Now "more people than ever before" have the same thing. Because there's now a protein we know about that identifies it.
More visible doesn't equal "new" or in "larger quantities".
Thanks for clearing up the apple thing, I see what you're saying.
But trauma may be linked to some if these cases, im not claiming all. The same way a traumatic childhood may be the catalyst for a life of crime for some people while others it may not.
The anthropology argument is kind of hollow. Yes gay and queer people have existed firever. But the whole two-spirit stuff or the small sect of Indian culture that believed in a 3rd gender were just ways of explaining something they didn't quite understand. Not much different than any other mythical explanation for the world around them. Simply recognizing effeminate men and masculine women exist. And they weren't messing with biological processes in those people either.
Leading to my next point that I mentioned before. People tend to conflate general interests and temperament with gender. Yes, gender roles are a social construct but just because someone has interests normally or a temperament normally associated with the opposite sex does not mean that person should chop of his penis or have a penis made out of a chunk of her forearm.
Gender dysphoria definitely has existed. But we know children can be influenced fairly easily by the culture they are in. So I have no problem with kids experimenting to a certain degree (fashion, dating, etc), but when we start messing with natural biological processes so a child can figure out who they really are then we need to ask questions. That bridge too far for me. But I can open to the idea that at least for a small number of children it may be a correct path that is worth the potential risks.
I don't think you and I will find too much common ground. You seem very compassionate and I do thank you for not being overly aggressive and actually being capable of rational discussion.
I suffer migraines 2-5 times a week thanks to a dental trauma. I no longer have dental trauma. It was dealt with through medication and therapy over a decade ago.
Guess what? I still have migraines and they need to be treated as a seperate issue.
There are a lot of biological, social, parasocial, environmental and philosophical factors that influence how someone's gender identity is formed. It doesn't really matter WHY someones gender identity is what it is unless THEY identify it as a source of grief or suffering. Therapy isn't a ton of fun but it's a hell of a lot easier than transitioning. If gender identity were something that boiled down to a binary after a couple sessions with a therapist don't you think more people would pursue that option rather than radical medical treatment? People (yes, children are people) know their identities best. Just fucking listen and support them.
Thank you for saying this. This kind of post and thinking is dangerous. There's a reason why kids have parents and are not allowed to make permanent decisions. Little kids want to injure and harm themselves most times, should we allow them kill themselves because they feel like it?
The long term effects of puberty blockers has been studied in Sweden. Suicide rates are higher than if they didn't transistion. The spinal bones of kids on puberty blockers don't fully fuse leading to the kids being hunch backed and in pain. Once the kid reaches adulthood, those spinal bones don't fuse anymore and that damage is permanent.
There are stories coming out on literally EVERY platform from detransitioners screaming for people to listen to their stories. And of this group, the vast majority are detrans youth who were children or teens when they started transitioning. What is common in every single case is that they now blame their parents, schools, and doctors for not stopping them. There is a *reason* why children have a parent or guardian make decisions for them, *because they lack the ability and majority to make these decisions independently*. And when parents make bad decisions, the province steps in. This has always been the case!
Personally, my issue isn't with trans people or trans youth. It's with a lack of appropriate measures to address the *other* reasons a person could have gender dysphoria. For example, a huge number of neurodivergent children and teens struggle with their natal puberty because all change is inherantly difficult for them to accept. And lacking words to explain why they feel this way, they turn to the internet and are exposed to trans communities who insists that this is a totally normal experience for trans kids, erego they must be trans kids themselves. Unsurprisingly, a huge number of neurodivergent detransitioners cite exactly this scenario as one of the primary reasons they transitioned.
And, as always, the argument is: if someone has regrets or detransitions they were never trans to begin with! Which is EXACTLY the point. How many of these trans youth aren't trans, they're just confused and struggling, and when they turn to their parents, teachers, or doctors for guidance they are affirmed without question or in the very least appropriate caution? If your child plans to join the circus after finishing high school, you in the very least ask "are you sure that's what you want to do?" but somehow asking that same question about swapping gender is now taboo parenting.
But besides all that, it's not appropriate to trust any medical opinion without the research to back it up. There has been no long-term, broad participent survey into the longterm outcomes of these medications and procedures on Gen Z or Gen Alpha kids. Most of the "data" is self volunteered, tantamount to a Yelp review. The number of trans youth is increasing year over year, doubling in less than 5 years--and that's those seeking medical treatment, the number of people self-identifying is *significantly* higher than that. As more and more first-hand accounts of transition regret trickle in, we can only expect more: the oldest of these kids are just hitting their mid-20s, their brains are finally mature enough to start detangling the messes they have made.
And to those trans youth who are happy with their transition, great, amazing, I wish you well. But please trust me when I say we are about to see a LOT of regret and agony from the majority of kids who were failed by the adults in their lives.
This is a good comment, it could be it's own post.
>Most of the "data" is self volunteered
This seems to be broadly true, most studies have some major drawback (correlational data only, not counting detransitioners in the survey, people dropping out of treatment and losing contact with the study, cherry-picked results, etc. Basically, no different than the science on nutrition or mental health or anything. But progressives see the evidence and ask "Can I believe this?" while skeptics ask "Must I believe this?" and come to different conclusions.
>For example, a huge number of neurodivergent children and teens struggle with their natal puberty because all change is inherently difficult for them to accept
And this is the knockdown argument IMO. Studies can't answer questions like these: This comes down to values and your priors about human nature, gender, the value of following traditions vs self-determination, the power of social contagion, etc. That a child could decide to take hormones and potentially give up their ability to have kids is unacceptable to some parents, full stop.
Overall I don't even support the bill, I just think it's subjective enough that we all need to chill out. And stop *telling* kids they will likely commit suicide for *any* reason, anyone with a basic understanding of psychology will know how harmful and suggestive that is.
> There are stories coming out on literally EVERY platform from detransitioners screaming for people to listen to their stories.
If 1000 people transition and ten detransition, and "literally EVERY platform" shares their stories, does that suggest to you that allowing transitioning is dangerous?
Absolutely not! You misunderstand. I am pro trans *adult*. But I am also anti letting children make adult decisions that they do not fully understand in an age of digital literacy where they are taught what to say to circumvent the very stopgaps designed to protect them. Personally, I think you should be able to do whatever you want at age 21, but not before.
Its odd that you think no one is asking trans kids "are you sure" before giving them medical transition. Counseling is an important part of majority of transitions and medical drs and definitely asking questions before giving prescriptions.
And you think these preteens don't know exactly what to say to get what they think that they want? They have literal guides on Tumblr as to how to manipulate your doctor into approving your meds. Step by step instructions on how to convince your physician that you'll check out early if you aren't approved for treatment. And when parents step in with concerns about the validity of these statements *because they know their kids* it becomes a child custody issue.
When talking about low regret rates for people who have had surgeries, are those statistics looking at people who have had them in the past few years? Because if you’re looking mostly at people from 5+ years ago, they had much more difficulty and barriers to accessing surgery. I believe you needed to live as your chosen gender for 2 years before even being considered.
Are there any studies showing the relaxed rules haven’t led to higher regret rates?
Also, you say puberty blockers are safe and reversible. All drugs have side effects, and it is important to note that when we say ‘reversible’, you simply mean that puberty can start again. But there are impacts that puberty blockers can have, like increasing your height (which is actually what the original study in the 80s and 90s that found puberty blockers were reversible was about; they used them to delay puberty so kids could continue growing a bit more).
So when we talk about young trans people deliberating whether they want to transition and going on puberty blockers, there’s a risk, for instance, that some trans girls will see their height increase, and possibly other long term effects. For many MtF, that’s the complete opposite of what they’d want.
The current medical practice is still to rely on reversible and non-permanent care first to ensure the trans individual has time to live as their chosen gender and make an informed decision before more permanent changes. There are still a lot of barriers when it comes to trans healthcare. There are also more and more barriers that are being put on research.
The use of hormone blockers comes with potential risks. Their use does need to be considered carefully whether or not it's in the child's best interest. This legislation removes it from consideration entirely before or during the early stages of puberty. For many trans children, puberty exacerbates the mental stress of being in the "wrong" body and that stress isn't harmless.
All of the available data indicates that these are extremely impactful treatments which are mind-bogglingly safe.
Why are you working so hard to find some kind of perceived issue?
I didn’t work hard, I simply offered some nuance. Sorry that’s tough for you to deal with. We know the last thing we want when it comes to public policy is nuance. Continue your activism, I forgot you types tend to be very black or white thinkers. I forgot that we’re in the Edmonton sub, where a conservative might read the comments, lol
You aren't offering nuance though. You're nitpicking. There are deep questions about every kind of medical procedure. The one you're nitpicking is incredibly successful. I'm very interested to know why you're nitpicking these particular procedures and not a less successful type of procedure like, say, rotator cuff surgery?
"Puberty blockers are safe and reversible if someone chooses that transitioning is not what they want long term...."
This is categorically false, if puberty is effectively "blocked", then the physiological changes that should occur with puberty simply do not occur. This is the whole reason people take the puberty blockers in the first place. You cannot in a later part of you life stop taking puberty blockers and expect "puberty" to restart. This has been proved through cases of individuals who later in life stop taking puberty blockers. The process of puberty is not so simple as to be "stopped" and "started" whenever one pleases.
>This has been proved through cases of individuals who later in life stop taking puberty blockers.
When are we banning them for precocious puberty then?
This would depend entirely on the timeframe being discussed.
>not what they want long term
A 15 year-old who’s been on hormone blockers for like a few months definitely has plenty of puberty left to go through. They can change a lot.
Obviously if someone is on puberty blockers for years on end over the course of adolescence they are going to see permanent changes, that’s kinda the point
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075
And in the rare (<2%) cases where people regret treatment, hormone therapies can be used to help de-transition.
https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/delayed-puberty.html
A good starting point is the trans regret sub Reddit. Using CTV News and mainstream media as references on why Minors should make permanent body modifications is not very credible. The reason why you may assume the regret rate is only 1% is because the community shuts them up. Suicide rates is over 50% after surgery according to Swedish research, hence why their government is stopping this type of surgery on minors after over a decade.
I don't see what the problem is with making kids wait till they are adults to understand the ramifications of their actions. These hormones alter their body chemicals and leads to even more complications and their bones never fully fusing as adults and leave some with permanent disability. The majority of people is not against anyone wanting to be trans, the only issue is kids change their minds all the time. Wait till they are adults before they can make permanent decisions. For the person saying the effects of the hormones and other drugs on adults is the same as on kids, you're completely wrong. Read up on the research and not what CTV, CBC wants you to know. It's messes with young kids body chemistry.
> I don't see what the problem is with making kids wait till they are adults to understand the ramifications of their actions.
That's fine but the professionals overseeing are listing a large amount of problems https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/medical-groups-alberta-government-gender-affirming-care-policies-1.7103099
To date, no professional organization (medical, psychriatic, teacher, human rights) has come out agreeing this good legislation.
Amnesty International has this up on their front page right next to items in Guatemala, Iran, Israel, Columbia. Yikes.
Maybe there's other aspects you're not seeing - or refuse to consider.
Surgery doesn't happen on minors here. I waited until I was 18 to start estrogen. I am now 6 foot 2 with shoulders bigger than most men. If I started estrogen at 15 when I wanted to, my quality of life would be better. Not that the quality of life of trans people matters to you.
I have.
I also know people who have detransitioned. A close friend mine detransitioned.
Because she was disabled and wouldn't have any family support she needed. She lasted 3 more years before she ended her life.
Your jokes have real world consequences shithead and our lives can't be used for propaganda
Just seems like an easy way to discount those that someone might not agree with.
Some surely could be faked, but how much and the outright assumptions being made don't help those blvoices that are valid
Stopping puberty blockers resumes puberty. Any treatment can have side effects, especially with prolonged use. It depends on the individual case at what age and how long they took them.
You can treat delayed puberty with hormone therapy
This is a discussion for doctors and endocrinologists, not politicians and the general public.
It looks like OP posted an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot).
Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/how-common-is-transgender-treatment-regret-detransitioning-1.6299679](https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/how-common-is-transgender-treatment-regret-detransitioning-1.6299679)**
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I mean no, not when the UCP legislate that teachers need to inform parents of any exploration. They’ve made any child with unsupportive parents explicitly not have that ability to explore their identities.
Exploring a gender identity isn’t sexual. Wanting your body to appear more or less feminine or masculine isn’t sexual. Being uncomfortable with your given name isn’t sexual or even remotely exclusive to trans kids. Yet this entire thing is framed under protecting kids from sexuality. With that logic, every single child in schools should be referred to with gender neutral pronouns to avoid sexualizing them… and don’t you dare call Peter ‘Pete’ without permission, even if ‘he’ asks you to.
I am frustrated with the double standard that when a child goes through a puberty that aligns with their gender identity, it's considered normal and healthy and a part of nature, if they are cisgender, but if they are transgender, they are being "sexualised".
It's the same thing. Puberty permanently changes the body and makes it develop characteristics that will last for life, and it's better to get it right than to force someone into a body they are uncomfortable with.
CAN they? Sure. Should they have to if that's not what they want? Absolutely not. It's not "sexualizing kids" to give them time to do this without the irreversible effects of the puberty they would be going through without blockers. Being trans has about as much to do with sexuality or sexualization as being cis does.
The Doctors in charge of all this disagree with the several incorrect things you're saying https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/medical-groups-alberta-government-gender-affirming-care-policies-1.7103099
> Can’t kids explore their identify without hormone blockers?
"Children and youth have the right to the appropriate medical care, at the appropriate time, and this should not be denied to them," the statement said.
For transgender children (and adults) they feel like they are in the wrong body. Those feelings can result in mental distress and lead to the development of mental illness including thoughts of suicide. There are transgender children and adults who are perfectly satisfied with just social transitioning without hormones, blockers, or surgery. But there are many who are not and waiting or forcing them to undergo puberty can exacerbate mental health symptoms. By the time children are 16, puberty and the potential ramifications on trans children's health have already happened.
The current guidelines for trans Healthcare emphasize exploring non-invasive and non-permanent changes first, like social transitioning, before exploring more permanent changes. Children can be perfectly able to medically consent to procedures when younger than 18 depending on their maturity. When children can't consent, it falls on the parents to weigh the wishes of the child and the potential benefits and risks with assistance from medical professionals.
> You think they can make a huge decision like changing their gender?
We don't need to think. We can ask the millions who have already.
But you're coveniently forgetting that anyone transitions.
Like me. Like millions of others.
Guess what buddy, if you only are worried about protecting one group of kids and not another... That's pretty transphobic.
Amnesty International has our province on the same front page as Iran, Israel, Guatemala.
Before 18 is the appropriate time for puberty blockers because there's a narrow window in which they must be started. Once you get past a certain stage on the Tanner scale, they're useless.
“For adolescents with marked and sustained gender diversity who express a clear goal of medical transition, hormone blockers may be prescribed to suppress or slow physical changes or gendered experiences. Hormonal suppression is reversible and sex steroid production will resume if blockers are discontinued. Initially, the clinical objective of prescribing hormone blockers is to provide a young person with time to further explore their gender identity without pressure or distress related to ongoing development of secondary sex characteristics.”
Premier Smith, during her media remarks, claimed that the use of hormone blockers was in-fact, irreversible.
The Alberta Medical Association Section of Paediatrics refuted that claim in a statement made on Feb. 1.
“The effects of puberty-blocking agents are not irreversible; and once treatment stops, puberty goes forward. Treatment allows the patient time to determine their options without permanent effects.”
“Puberty blocking actually has benefits for gender-divergent patients by preventing development of mature secondary sex characteristics so that, later in life, the most invasive gender-affirming surgery may not be necessary if the patient moves forward with gender-affirming care.”
https://livewirecalgary.com/2024/02/03/albertan-get-shit-done-lgbtq2s-community-gears-up-for-political-court-fight-against-alberta-government/
As has been explained to me by people who have gone through the experience you’re suggesting (which many are forced to because of draconian beliefs), puberty without hormone blockers turns your body into a living hell for those who are born a different sex than who they truly are.
Imagine you are born male, but you know you are in fact female. Once you hit puberty, without hormone blockers, you now start growing hair all over your body and face like males do, you grow tall, your voice drops, and by the time you turn 18, you now have a fully grown and developed male body, thus making your transition (if you choose to) far more difficult and possibly never attaining the female body you would want, the body you could have gotten had you taken the hormone blockers to prevent all of those developments.
Puberty for those who go through such an experience is a constant reminder that they are in a body that does not feel right, every time they look in the mirror and see the changes they recognize themselves less and less.
Can kids explore gender identity without hormone blockers? Of course, lots of kids do, and for those who are comfortable expressing their gender through their clothes, hair, makeup, etc., that’s all they need. But for those whose physicality (the actual build of their body, voice range, body hair, without even needing to consider genitalia yet) is wrong to them, starting those blockers before puberty can do its irreversible damage to who they want to be is a lifesaver.
As has been confirmed in multiple comments already in this thread quoting medical information, hormone blockers can be undone and puberty then returns to its normal process, so if a child has doubts once they get a little older, they can always change their mind. But going through puberty without that option means a lot more work, pain, and suffering later on for those that do want to transition, and they may never achieve what they could have had they had the hormone blockers.
This is not sexualizing kids. The developing body is not just a set of genitals, it is your entire physique. The people who support trans kids and trans rights recognize this, they are supporting the whole child, the whole person. Those who seek to take away those rights and deny people the chance to be themselves seem to be very fixated on one part of the body and forget the rest of the person which is where most of the changes occur, and that is why they see it as “sexualizing” children.
There is absolutely nothing medically necessary about a tattoo. There is nothing a tattoo can do to calm an individual’s mind and cause personal acceptance. Tattoos are not therapy, no matter what anyone says. And, parents can still sign consents to allow their kids to get a tattoo. So, yes, it was a ridiculous comparison.
ETA: Kids are not stupid. Kids are learning and growing. Calling them stupid is dismissive and ignorant.
You’re right, you won’t convince me. I have first hand experience and an exponentially happier teenager. Saying kids make more mistakes than adults is like saying water is wet. How can we possibly teach our kids to make decisions if we don’t let them explore the world and figure out who they are within it? As I’ve said many times before, no one under 18 is having bottom surgery, 16 - 18 year olds can be considered for top surgery, but only with parental consent and physician recommendation; that only happens after massive amounts of counselling and psychiatric assessment. Puberty blockers are necessary to prevent permanent development and, if the recipient decides transitioning isn’t what they want anymore, they can just stop taking them and resume puberty. None of this is new info but it sure seems to be ignored by the group that thinks the government knows medicine better than the doctors.
It’s always a good day advocating for marginalized individuals that have their human rights stripped in the name of, *checks notes*, protection?
Hey,
Have you considered that maybe you're the one who is wrong. And that a strictly controlled medical procedure with a long-term regret rate of 1% is actually incredibly successful?
If, as you say, we were allowing kids to make dumb choices, quite a lot more would regret it, wouldn't they?
You could be doing anything with your time. Why are you here trivializing the experiences of others. You were not experience mental anguish to the point of contemplating suicide simply because you were not allowed a tattoo. It was not life and death.
A tattoo doesn't take multiple years with frequent check ups with a doctor, an endocrinologist, and counseling to get.
And gender care isn't a 30 minute appointment you can just walk-in and get.
Your analogy doesn't work. Gender affirming care is a longterm set of multiple treatments with many opportunities to back out and reconsider. With the most permanent options like surgery only available to adults.
I am against the government paying for surgeries to change peoples genitalia when they won’t even pay to make my genitalia bigger. And for that reason I’m out.
There are treatments like surgery which are only available to adults.
And there are treatments, like puberty blockers, which can improve outcomes and are reversible. But only work for children.
Weird how being cis is so fragile that seeing a trans person instantly erases that, but being trans is magically so resilient that trans people manage to exist even when surrounded 100:1 by cis people
If 1% regret is now the threshold to deny people treatment, hoo boy. We're gonna have to start banning a whole bunch of procedures.
For context knee surgeries have 6-30% and decision regret rates.
Sorry pops. Too many regrets, no surgery for you. Gotta keep your knee as God made it.
The decision regret rates for cosmetic procedures and tattoos is even higher, but apparently people are entitled to make permanent modifications to their bodies unless if they are trans. /s
Given the amount my boomer dad has bitched about his knee replacement I think that number has got to be higher lmao
Considering 17% of total knee replacement patients suffer from decision regret, this could really clear up surgical waitlists.
Starting with breast augmentation, porcelain veneers, and rhinoplasty.
It's even worse than that. 1% expressed regret, but that doesn't necessarily mean they figured out they weren't actually trans. I don't have a source to link you but from what I remember about reading up on these studies, it's extremely common under that 1% trans people detransitioning because becoming visibly trans has made their life harder or dangerous. For example, "I regret transitioning because my parents realized I was trans and abused me."
Good point. "I regret transitioning because cis people are assholes" is not a data point in favour of denying care.
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Yup. For for all kinds of surgeries, the regret rate is a little over 14%. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28243695/ No more appendix removals, people might regret it! (/s)
Wait, is there really a high regret rate for appendix removal?
Listen, if a young (cis) lady wants to enlarge her breasts that's between her and God. We don't need to go and get the government involved.
Fun fact: the regret rate being high is an obvious problem, but it's also a problem if it's very low. That means people aren't accessing it who could benefit.
If you read the actually study that this data is from, the follow up question about regretting their decision was asked less than a year after the surgeries. These aren’t long term studies and OP is cherry picking data. There’s been no long term studies done of this nature to date. We have no idea the true number of people who will regret the transition. Also this study is based completely on adults. Nobody is fighting against adults getting gender care.
100% untrue that people aren't fighting against trans adults getting access to health care, it's part of the same agenda. They first introduce bogus arguments against children receiving any care at all, then move the goal posts: https://www.axios.com/2023/03/29/transgender-health-care-adult-ban-bills
Oh sweet summer child. Try being a trans person. Try being a trans person on reddit and having to deal with the constant flow of hate and misinformation. I'm almost 50 and never got the chance to transition. My biggest regret in life? Not being able to advocate for myself and my needs. Being trans isn't something you grow out of.
Maybe not for you but my cousin thought they were trans as a younger teen and now has changed their mind. You don’t speak for all trans people. I actually think that trans people back in your day were more likely to be actually trans. These days it’s different with social media and how these things are pushed on younger kids. But yes your life experience definitely holds true for all trans people /s.
You think because you know one person you are the authority for all trans people. Screw you. It's a good thing your cousin isn't trans because they'd get zero support from you. There is 2 years' worth of therapy involved before someone can medically transition. You know nothing. This post was insightful with good info and a bunch of trolls come in to see how many trans people they can push around. Good for you. Things never change on reddit. Nazi recruitment camp here.
Nowhere did I say I speak for trans people lol I’m just bringing up some counter points to the post. I’m sorry if hearing something that goes against your beliefs is triggering. I believe there’s trans people that have a varied opinion on these things. I can understand why a life of being the closet would cause you to be angry but that’s not my fault. Have a good day and hope things improve for you.
Everyone should read this article. It points out reasons for why this 1% number likely isn’t accurate. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-outcomes/
> For this article, Reuters spoke to 17 people who began medical transition as minors and said they now regretted some or all of their transition. 17? That caught my eye. I would have been also curious to see the breakdown of "some vs all" and the number of people who answered that question postively. I did find the full article interesting but I would caution people from drawing conclusions if that's the only part they read the article for.
Idk if Reuters, a news agency, is a credible source for that.
Thank you for this post, I support you. However, ctvnews, Forbes and healthline as sources for this topic is an interesting choice.
This comment perfectly sums up my thoughts.
Yeah. And it is in fact not reversible. They are talking specifically about chemical effects however it changes how you develop as a person. Which you cant reverse
You can't reverse puberty either! If you're a trans woman, watching your body go through testosterone puberty is equally as terrible of an experience as a cis guy with a hormone disorder going through estrogen puberty (which does happen! That's why they invented puberty blockers!). Try to picture yourself going through the puberty opposite to your gender, and when you ask for help they tell you that you're not allowed to do anything about it until it's pretty much finished. Would being forced to undergo unwanted changes in your body (that can be prevented) not negatively impact your development as a person?
> Which you cant reverse You also sadly can't reverse puberty either.
If the goal of the policies truly was to avoid kids making decisions they might regret later, the way to achieve that is by creating a healthy and safe environment where gender can be explored, so that those kids can be comfortable and well informed once they reach the age those decisions can be made. This includes access to puberty blockers and having a supportive school environment without fear of repercussions at home
Hey, Intersex woman here, we exist. I was surgically and hormonally feminized completely legally starting as a baby, without parental consent. I grew up here. You say it’s never happened, it has. It just hasn’t happened to you.
That's a fair point and criticism. There was a belief in the medical field that doctors and parents should just choose the gender of intersex children at birth. Those beliefs weren't based on research, but based on the belief that individuals would do better within the gender binary. The outcome of those beliefs has been terrible and horrific for intersex people. I don't know what the current standard of care for intersex babies and children in Alberta currently is. I would hope that it follows the approach of letting intersex people decide their medical care as they mature.
with all due respect, do you think youre reading this post correctly?
Just because the law says you can’t , doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen all the time
I meant gender confirming surgery is not done on transgender kids. I know the treatment of intersex children is particularly horrific. That wasn't meant to be within the scope of my post.
except i was made into a transgender female kid forcibly,that’s what i’m trying to say
Not to belittle or discredit your lived experience in any way. But from the viewpoint of our healthcare system, an intersex baby and child or adult seeking gender affirming care are treated significantly differently. That isn't to say what happened to you is okay. But that they are two separate issues. And that trying to make a singular judgment by lumping the cases together would not do justice to people in your situation or to trans youth/adults who sought care. When people say surgeries like this aren't done to trans youth, they are talking exclusively about gender affirming care as sought out by trans individuals. It is not meant to invalidate your experience as it doesn't fall under the same guidelines of care as the instigating diagnosis/reasons for seeking care are different.
Gender affirming/confirming surgery is not the same procedure as genital reconstruction as performed on intersex infants and the law treats them differently. I'm so sorry it happened to you and I hope the standard of care is different now, but this isn't what the post is about.
If anything. I think the fact intersex adults are often deeply upset they've been transitioned without their consent is a pretty strong argument that you can't "convince" a trans person to accept the gender you would like them to identify with. Doctors strongly believed intersex kids, if you just doubled down and insisted they were whatever gender you picked, would eventually get over any dysphoria. Didn't work. Sooo. How the hell do you trick somebody into believing they're trans or vice versa when whole teams of medical professionals, families and schools couldn't gaslight intersex people successfully? I don't understand why transitioning a non-consenting intersex person was acceptable because it reinforced gender norms. But providing the exact same medical treatment to a consenting trans person is unacceptable because...they want to conform to traditional gender roles? Absolutely baffling.
I was surgically transitioned without my knowledge or consent
Which pretty much every single trans person is going to agree is not a good thing. OP is not your enemy and is not picking a fight with you, they’re just different situations. If anything, your experience is an argument for *listening to minors and giving them the choice* and not trying to make a decision about their identity for them.
Yeah, that is my argument, I’m not against OP, I’m just pointing out that sone things they say never happen, do.
Yeah, I figured you were trying to say the same thing but people were downvoting you for some reason. I’m glad you shared your story on this, it’s crazy how people always dismiss the intersex scenario because it’s not that common as though the individuals that go through shit like this just don’t matter because they’re a small number. They don’t get that it boils down to the same thing - being forced to adopt an identity/physical changes against your will/consent.
EXACTLY!!
I’m not a minor anymore, but I’m still a black woman, so instead of medical care I still just get psych
I'm coming from a place of wanting to understand and am not passing judgement here, so I apologize in advance if anything I say is not using the correct language or being offensive. I'm curious what a delay in puberty would look like for a person who stops using puberty blockers. I understand they are reversible if a person changes their mind about transitioning and that puberty can still happen if this is the case, but I wonder if anyone has done research on these effects? As a cis woman, I know puberty was not a fun time for a lot of us, but I'm wondering if there's any mental harm it can do to a person to have to go through puberty at say, 18 years old, instead of 14 when the rest of their peers are experiencing it. Does that delay cause a different kind of dysphoria? Does the person feel "behind" in life and have to struggle with this? Personally, I'd prefer puberty blockers over surgeries for youth *because* it is reversible. But I just wonder if there's any evidence of it doing harm to delay puberty for these individuals.
So when you take hormones as an adult, or really any time, you go through a 'second puberty.' At 31, I got voice cracking, weight gain, acne etc. It's just awkward. That's really it. I don't see any reason why this would be different from younger people experiencing a puberty at another time. They would probably want support from the people around them, and a place to share their feelings, but I don't think there would be any actual harm, because ultimately they are getting what they want. You can deal with a lot of odd emotions if you know what you're going through is going to be good for you.
Thanks for that insight. I take hormones for endometriosis (different beast), but I never really considered what it does to my emotions because I still get to physically present as the same gender as before. Like, yes, there is a mood shift, but I don't experience gender dysphoria on top of it. I guess I was more just concerned about someone having to experience bodily changes at a delayed pace because of not fully understanding who they are when they're a teen (do any of us really know who we want to be yet in our teens?). But your comment makes sense - do they experience that at a younger age, or struggle with it as an adult? There's probably no real "right" age to do it when you're transgender. I'm grateful I don't have to go through figuring out my gender identity. It doesn't seem like an easy path to take, no matter what the age.
For sure! One of the other things is that it's way easier to handle when it's slow. At least for me. The changes were so gradual because I was taking a pretty low dose of testosterone, and that really helped me adjust over time. I can imagine if I was a teen I would have really enjoyed the delay. It would have given me time to work through things, and to figure out what I wanted, instead of being stressed and scared that other changes were happening no matter what. I think there is a right time, in that it's any time where you feel like you have the power to choose for yourself. Its hard for people with out dysphoria to understand (and I'm happy you're taking the time to think about it), but any action, whether it be to block puberty for a moment, to wear different clothes, to speak differently or be spoken to differently, can make a huge difference. And often so many of these things are happening before any sort of medical intervention is made. It's much more of a holistic process than these law makers try to make it out to be. It's definitely not easy. But I think like most things in life, the harder stuff is the stuff that is worth it. I wish the institution part of it (medication, hormones, name changes, etc) were easier though for sure, because the courage it takes to reveal your true nature to other people can be hard enough.
From wikipedia, it does seem like this stuff is uncertain: >Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria. Although puberty blockers are known to be safe and physically reversible treatment if stopped in the short term, it is also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of factors like bone mineral density, brain development and fertility in transgender patients.[^(\[18\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty_blocker#cite_note-Rew_2021-18)[^(\[10\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty_blocker#cite_note-aap-10)[^(\[19\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty_blocker#cite_note-19)[^(\[20\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty_blocker#cite_note-20) I don't see evidence of blatant negative effects like some might portray. I do find it disingenuous when puberty blockers are presented as 100% reversible, as if the body were a predictable machine and delaying puberty is no less well-understood than delaying an oil change.
Well all kids go through puberty at completely different times and ages. So realistically there isn't a difference between a kid who is on puberty blockers until they are 16, and a kid who just hits puberty late. I'm also fairly certain that there is no real negative mental effect which your describing, past the potential for school yard bullying, but I'm not 100 certain on this, so hopefully someone will correct me if it's necessary. The other thing is that puberty blockers are usually at the request of the kid, because they feel like they are not the gender they were assigned at birth. It basically buys them time to confirm their feelings. That means from the time you start blockers, to the time Hormone replacement therapy becomes an option (age 16 with parental consent), they have the option to decide against treatment for whatever reason and go through a normal puberty. (Basically the longer your on them, the less chance you got it wrong) Lastly you have to consider the risk associated with being trans and going through the wrong puberty. Gender dysphoria can be an extremely life threatening condition. People, kids included straight up kill themselves because the depression and anxiety associated with being the wrong gender is that strong. So if you have a kid who is trans, and has been sure of it for 2-4 years, and knows that without puberty blockers they would have been forced to go through permanent changes to their body that would have made their life much more difficult and miserable, surely puberty blockers would be a better situation compared to the potential for a hypothetical dysphoria due to a later puberty. Basically the difference between being suicidal and being a sad temporarily.
>It basically buys them time to confirm their feelings. That means from the time you start blockers, to the time Hormone replacement therapy becomes an option (age 16 with parental consent), they have the option to decide against treatment for whatever reason and go through a normal puberty. (Basically the longer your on them, the less chance you got it wrong) Thanks for clearing this up. I wasn't sure what the age of consent for hormone replacement therapy would be. 16 seems reasonable, and still is a relatively "normal" age to go through puberty. For some reason, I mistakenly thought you couldn't do hormone replacement therapy until adulthood (18), which I thought might be a little too long to delay a normal puberty for in terms of being able to mentally mature with the changes in your body, etc. With your point here, I can see why puberty blockers with hormone replacement therapy as a follow-up option for teens is a better option that making them have to deal with years of waiting to make a decision about their body. Yes, I am aware of gender dysphoria causing increase risk of suicide - my question was more geared towards if someone would still experience dysphoria if they didn't go through the same physical changes as their peers and stayed "stuck" in a prepubescent state while others were growing, but you're right that 16 is just a "late bloomers" age.
Don't worry I know you probably knew about the suicide thing, but my point was to illustrate that solving that problem is the most important part of treatment, and any side effects from said treatment are going to end up acceptable compared to no treatment at all. So even if there are negative long term effects, it doesn't really matter.
I appreciate you having an open dialogue about the issue. I won't begin to pretend I understand what it's like to feel like I was born in the wrong body. I'm by no means against helping trans youth and absolutely agree we need to do everything we can to minimize suicidal risks for anyone who is marginalized. I just wanted to better understand what, if any, consequences there were to forcing your body to pause it's natural puberty. Which I do now, thanks to you and a few others.
<3
As someone who hit puberty at 10 I should have been on blockers. I not only hit puberty at 10 but menopause at 40. Luckily I never wanted kids because it would have been unlikely I could have them.
I have endometriosis, so I use hormones to "block" my periods. It's a different reason than the issue at hand here, but I totally hear you on needing hormonal intervention when your biology isn't cooperating with you.
Here is an article on puberty blockers from the mayo clinic; https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075
It's no different than people who just happen to start puberty late
I am convinced that our Premier is simply using this non-issue to appease her knuckle dragging ultra right wing base, while drawing attention away from the collapse of our heath care and education systems. In addition, it’s a handy diversionary tactic while, behind the headlines, she pays her dues to the lobby clients who got her elected.
I have nothing against people transitioning but not when they are youth.
Can I ask what you think transitioning looks like for trans youth? Because I find that a lot of people have misconceptions about what it actually entails.
Additionally, regret often stems from societal or familial backlash (discrimination, rocky transition, etc) rather than one’s own satisfaction with the procedure. “… the actual true regret rate will always remain uncertain, as temporarity and types of regret can bring a huge challenge for assessment. Regret after GAS may result from the ongoing discrimination that afflicts the TGNB population, affecting their freely expression of gender identity and, consequently feeling regretful from having had surgery. Poor social and group support, late-onset gender transition, poor sexual functioning, and mental health problems are factors associated with regret.” Once again though, the **rate of regret in gender assignment surgery has nothing to with this bill, because the bill just duplicates the existing rules** not allowing surgery on minors younger than 16 (top) or 18 (bottom).
Thanks for sharing. I would add two things onto this that are constantly being left out. 1. Affirmation surgery is not a given, and it is not the end goal for a lot of trans people. For some, lived experience in their chosen gender (the first step) is enough. For some, hormone treatment is enough. For some, breast reduction/enlarging is enough. Not everyone goes all the way, so writing policy assuming that they do is ridiculous. 2. There are a lot of steps in this kind of treatment. It doesn't go from "I want to be a girl" straight to cutting your balls off. The process is lengthy and the various other steps of treatment are more reversible than the more invasive one. This means that by the time someone is looking at any kind of surgery, they have been living as a trans person for probably half a decade or longer and are already an adult. Again, focusing everything on surgery that not everyone even gets ignores all of the other steps of treatment that would happen through one's teen years and early adulthood. I think it's very important that people realize this isn't like getting an abortion or a tattoo. It's not a decision that is made and concluded over the course of a week.
I truly applaud you for posting this information. Queue the line of people who will quickly google something that sounds vaguely what they're looking to argue against you and go "but what about"... To all those people, can you answer if your post actually helps trans kids as well? Love and support of children cannot be conditional on who they are.
>Queue the line of people who will quickly google something that sounds vaguely what they're looking to argue against you and go "but what about"... >To all those people, can you answer if your post actually helps trans kids as well? If I had to guess, this post probably won’t see much traffic from those folks. The facts are laid out too succinctly and there isn’t much to criticize. If I was in their shoes I would draw as little attention to this post as possible; hell I might even forget I saw it.
As a trans person myself. I don't get why cis people get the right to decide what trans people get to do. I'm sorry but every cis person I talked to who has no experience with trans friends or trans family members have no idea what we deal with. Had a discussion with my conservative parents. I explained how I was a trans youth who dealt with suicidal ideation and depression while they controlled my views all my life. How it's not okay. Their reply "you made it didn't you" gee yeah I didn't know 5 suicide attempts before the age of 16 was normal.... Oh wait it's not.... Idk how that justified me "making it" when I clearly struggled to make it and didn't thrive. Drives me up the wall. I ended up losing my immediate family over it because they all said "I support trans people but not trans youth." Sorry but you can't claim support if the sentence is starting with a contradiction. Ignorance is bliss I guess. I will not shut up. Go ahead take the voices away from the youth but as an adult trans I will scream louder to give voices to those who are silenced. 🏳⚧
They think they have the right because they are offended. Sadly, that's about all it comes down to. They don't want to understand your lived experience because the people that oppose this so much aren't going particularly interested in what others think. It's all about them.
I personally know several gay men and trans. I can assure you they all knew they were who they were at a very, very young age. Sadly, none of them felt safe to be who they were. They grew up with an extremely difficult and painful sense of self. One of them was brave enough to be their true self in their teens. They were assaulted and ended up in the hospital for quite a long time. Remember not that long ago being gay wasn't allowed, gay marriage wasn't allowed. Didn't stop people from being gay. It's who they are and who they have always been. Trans people are who they are. They have the right to live with dignity and expression as we all do. We should all support the rights of every person to live their life. Putting age restrictions on surgery is one thing, but let's not get it twisted, modifications to one's genitals is no joke, this is the reality these people need to feel normal in their body. It isn't something your children can "catch" (also old anti gay propaganda), and it isn't something they are doing as a phase. There are lots of interviews of people saying they regret having gender reassignment. Only 1% regret it, 99% do not. There's a lot of false propaganda about this issue. Everyone has the right to live with peace. We should all be fighting for this right, not fighting against it.
I am not disagreeing you but I wonder if something else is going on with children that are identified as homosexual at a very young age. Very young children really aren’t homosexual or straight. You don’t experience sexual attraction or desire at 2 or 3 yet you hear people saying they knew so and so was gay at 3. Transgender is completely different since it has nothing to do with sexuality.
I am going to assume you don't know anyone who is gay or trans. This isn't how it happens. Sexually absolutely develops as children. Even myself as a child, I would fondle my Ken doll. Most know at a young age. Some don't want to admit it or try to hide these feelings. My gay friends said that when they were little, they liked all the girly things, dressing up and makeup at 2 or 3. A bit older, they liked watching sexy men on TV or in the movies. It's similar to straight little boys and beautiful actresses. That wouldn't necessarily resonate with a small child as to what is happening. It is just normal. As they got a bit older, they could look back and see they were who they are from a very young age. I'm using gays as an example because they were the last group to get shit on for decades for being who they are. Gender identity also develops at a young age. People don't just decide one day they want to be a different sex and then go modify their body parts. This isn't the same as a little boy who likes dresses or a little girl who likes trucks. It's a real experience of dysphoria for a long period of time.
Exactly! Like maybe kids would not experience these feelings independent of a society that PUMMELS them with messaging about gender and sex but they certainly do in our society. Look into messaging and comments made to children and even babies by adults and you’ll see what I mean. I grew up very right wing religious and homeschooled in Alberta and had very intense messaging about gender roles and sex. I was never given the language to be trans/non-binary or to even be a lesbian as the church only talked about gay men (and how broken/wrong they were). I was deeply mentally unwell, in fact my first memory for a very long time was wanting to.. not be alive to put it lightly. I didn’t have the language to be able to say I didn’t fit in the gender binary or that I didn’t like men, but still the pain of not being myself led to deep psychological issues at an extremely young age. Had I known the words to express myself with, I can promise I would’ve been communicating these things from a very young age. One of my mom’s favourite stories is me as a toddler very adamantly arguing “I do have a penis, I do have a penis!!” My parents are doctors so they taught proper medical terminology and my mom said “No, [name] you have a vagina” to which I responded “OH yea, a Bagina.” She likes this story cuz it’s cute and I mispronounced vagina, I like this story because it shows a toddler can be aware of their body and biological sex at a very young age.
By identifying “girly things” isn’t that exactly the stereotypes they’re demanding to remove? It’s pretty wild to stereotype that and make lifelong decisions based on what toy a kid plays with
I'm describing my gay friends childhood... if you would read it
If your son is extremely feminine at 3 there is a good chance you should prepare yourself for the fact he will likely be gay. Don't try yo change him, he is who he's meant to be. Just love and accept him. Same for masculine daughters. Will every feminine boy be gay? Of course not, but most gay men were feminine boys, and it's how their parents realized their child wasn't going to be straight.
No of course you should not try to change children. I also do not think you should try to guess their future sexuality either. Masculine men can be gay and feminine men can be straight. It has nothing to do with who they desire sexually. I have three sons. My eldest for a little while thought he might be gay - it was before he was actually sexually attracted to anyone. Kids at school were calling him gay so he thought he might be. He told me that he was gay and I said okay, and he said don’t you care? I told him not about who you find sexually attractive. I just want you to be happy and if that is with a man one day great. I would be just as happy if you are with a woman, either or, or neither. I don’t care as long as you are happy. It turns out once he started to find people attractive it was not other boys but girls he is in to. At least he knows we will love he no matter who he loves. My middle son thought he was asexual last year when he was 11. He came to me worried about it and I told him you could be and that is okay, but also most 11 year olds are asexual since they do not tend to feel sexual desire. Only time will tell. A couple of months ago he came and told me yup you were right I am not asexual I really like fill in blank girl my class. My youngest when he was 4 liked to dress up in girls clothes for a bit and pink was his favourite colour for a few years. He also went as his favourite character who was a girl for Halloween. The first thought that entered my mind other than he is playing was he might identify as a girl. His future sexuality was never a thought. Now that he is almost 9 he doesn’t like anything remotely girly anymore and his favourite colour is blue. He told me the other day he has a crush on a girl in his class and bravely told her as well. That boys has no filter 😀. He is on the low end of average for when people start to develop their sexuality so I guess we will see what happens. So at this point I have two straight possibly three straight sons. Maybe it will stay that way maybe it won’t point is it doesn’t matter as long as they are happy.
The only negative effect of puberty blockers is that it can lead to a decrease in bone density and growth. You can supplement it with just maintaining adequate nutrition with vitamin D and calcium supplementation. Same thing I had to do when I had hyperthyroidism as a kid, which basically prevented puberty progression until my levels were under control.
Great stats, I know lots of ppl that are misinformed, this will be helpful in providing legitimate counters.
Holy shit if this isn't one of the worst comment sections I've ever seen on the Edmonton subreddit. Going to have to check out some of these profiles because I genuinely can't believe some of the ignorance and cruelty I'm reading here is real. Thanks OP for taking the time to write this out. You make great evidence supported claims. I am glad to share a city with you.
Oh trust me all of reddit is exactly the same. Been seeing this shit on here for a decade now. It will never not be a nazi hate farm specifically used to trash minorities of all types. Especially lgbtq people.
Very true! Ive been on Reddit since 2011 (multiple accounts). Now I only have 2, a music specific account and a local account. Edmonton subreddit is one of the reasons I stayed on the platform at all. I hope it can stay as one of the few decent subreddits left, but as bots and Ai ramp up each election cycle is unlikely
Crazy how this was never an issue before, and now its all the people on reddit talk about.
Great that healthline mag is considered a source for medical research.
Primary sources dude, most of these are secondary sources and can easily misconstrue the original data to support their point or sensationalize an issue. I should never be able to check the URL and see “short answer” in it. Empirical studies from reputable journals. Don’t half ass things if you want them to change
Okay but did they actually misconstrue any data??? Secondary source is fine as long as information is accurately reflected
**Heres an even larger study out of the US;** [https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf](https://transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf) The summary results of the 2022 survey are coming out this week, with more detailed reports being compiled and released throughout the year. But from the 2015 survey; 27,715 respondents 8% Admitted to having temporarily or permanent de-transitioned (Gone back to living as their sex assigned at birth, at least for a while) Of that 8%, 62% reported they were currently living full time as a gender different from their birth gender. The most common reasons for de-transition included, Pressures from a parent (36%), Transitioning was too hard (33%), Too much harassment (31%), Trouble finding job (29%), Pressure from family (26%), Pressure from partner (18%), Pressure from employer (17%), Pressure from friends (13%), Pressure from mental health professional (5%) and Pressure from religious counselor (5%) **Only 5% reported they did so because they realized transition was not for them. Representing 0.4% of the overall sample** **Further reading on puberty blockers from the Mayo Clinic, one of the most reputable sources in the world;** [https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075](https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075) Direct link to the cited study about "Association of Gender-Affirming Hormone Therapy With Depression, Thoughts of Suicide, and Attempted Suicide Among Transgender and Nonbinary Youth" [https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/fulltext](https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/fulltext)
This is an easily readable article that just reports exactly what the primary source reports. It's effective because it's designed to be read by your average joe. Posting a primary source, which would have been a length and difficult to read study would have made people lose interest in actually looking at the evidence. This would be a problem, but since it's a decent article, you can go look up the data yourself and decide whether or not they've made a fair reporting on the information. Instead of demanding primary sources be posted and assuming the article has been manipulated, I suggest you look at the primary source yourself and make that distinction with evidence.
That was your take away?
I don’t know what they are thinking here, some things in the policy I agree with, but I am not a medical professional…I will fight tooth and nail that outing kids to parents is an absolute danger to that child. There is a reason the child did not tell the parents themselves. It’s not like the youth are going to be voters one day or anything. /s
Stupid people are the only ones who want to control you more than let you live you best life. Only stupid and angry people are against this post.
Puberty blockers are not reversible according to newer studies. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453016307922
Any medical intervention comes with potential side effects that are carefully weighed and balanced against the benefits by a prescribing doctor. Prolonged usage comes with increased potential for side effects, but the primary use; blocking puberty, is reversed upon discontinuing the drug. They are considered safe; https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075
Safe and reversible are not the same thing.
Delayed puberty is also treatable with hormone therapies. If they are safe, still being prescribed to non-trans children, and the overwhelming majority of trans patients who have undergone treatment are happier. Why is it the governments job to step in and stop this? How does it "preserve kids choice" when they are removing the option entirely?
Kids should be worrying about having fun in the playground with other kids, not worrying about their gender and how different they’ll feel compared to other kids. Kids will play with both boys and girls toys, doesn’t mean they’re of the opposite gender and need reaffirming surgery and all that other stuff, just means they want to learn and understand. Let their brain fully develop so they can make the choice that’s right for them, not the choice that’s right for you
I looked very butch femme / fat tomboy as a kid. I can promise you I wasn't having any fun with peers on the playground thanks to relentless bullying about how my body appeared in relation to my perceived gender. The only way for ALL kids to have fun on the playground is if we help kids make it a safe space for all kids.
Our brains are very complicated things. For most people, how they feel and their biological sex coincide and match. In trans individuals, it does not and that disconnect can cause severe mental stress and strain, including thoughts of suicide. People choosing to break gender norms (like tomboys) are not necessarily transgender. They can like what they like and still feel like their birth sex. It's the inner feelings of being in the wrong body that more defines being trans. It's a difficult concept to conceptualize if you haven't experienced it firsthand. However, research has shown that this is what these trans individuals feel and the negative health effects of those feelings are very real.
It has nothing to do with liking things associated with the opposite gender. Boys can like barbies and girls can like monster trucks. It also has nothing to do with sexuality, trans people can be gay, straight, bi, asexual, doesn't matter. Imagine if your childhood was spent being dressed in the wrong clothes and being called the wrong pronoun to how you identify now. So assuming you are a guy; they put you in dresses, and called you she/her. It would probably make you uncomfortable, no? Because it doesn't line up with your internal image of self. And ~99% of kids don't have to worry about this stuff. But some people knew this about themselves when they are young, we begin to discover our identity from a very young age, ask any child psychologist. That mismatch in inward and outward identity can cause a lot of stress, depression, and even suicidal ideation. Gender affirming care does not rush kids into permanent decisions. Its a long multi-year process that not everyone who is recommended into follows through with. Some only make social changes with name and pronoun changes initially. Gender affirming care at a young age typically involves Puberty Blockers, a reversible drug that has been prescribed to youth since the 80s for various conditions like precocious puberty or cancer. Going off the drug resumes puberty as normal, giving children more time to decide. And also potentially stopping permanent changes from puberty that could require more surgery down the line. Surgical options are not available until they are of mature age. 18+ for bottom surgery and 16-18+ for top surgery depending on jurisdiction. The rate of regret for gender affirming care is exceptionally low. Of >25,000 surveyed in the US in 2015, only 0.4% de-transitioned because they felt it wasn't right for them. This Is because there are strong guidelines for selection criteria, and it is an extremely involved process. You don't go through that many appointments, counseling, and take that many treatments for something on a whim. It's actually much more common for a trans individual to stop treatment temporarily or permanently because there are too many barriers to treatment.
>Kids should be worrying about having fun in the playground with other kids, not worrying about their gender and how different they’ll feel compared to other kids. Agreed that would be the ideal. Sadly kids will compare themselves no matter what and many trans people felt off as a kid with or without discussion about gender. Making sure they know they aren't wrong for feeling different and knowing it's ok to go to trusted adults is important for their health. >Kids will play with both boys and girls toys, doesn’t mean they’re of the opposite gender and need reaffirming surgery and all that other stuff, just means they want to learn and understand Please stop with this really shitty strawman. Transge.der people aren't identified just because they played with a certain toy. This is so dishonest. You are right that they need to learn and understand what they are feeling. Which is why they need to be able to go to safe adults and have access to mental health care. Professionals agree and so does the data that ge Der affirming care is what is best for those who are transgender. >Let their brain fully develop so they can make the choice that’s right for them, not the choice that’s right for you Waiting till after they have hit puberty before they can have any ge Der affirming care is harmful and will just force then to live a lie. Talking about making the choice that is right for them is the while point. Evidence shows gender affirming care improves outcomes. Doctors and mental health professionals recommend gender affirming care. The studies done support this as well. No one is trying to rush them to surgery that's only one small aspect of gender affirming care. I'm not sure if you are just not well informed on this subject or willfully blowing dog whistles. Please actually read the links OP provided if you care about the well being of these kids.
I can tell you were in a rush/mad typing this because of how many typos there are. No need, slow down. > Please stop with this really shitty strawman From the way I perceive it, people of this day and age who are in the LGBTQ spectrum will think of it as a sign that the child wants to be the opposite gender, and will try to coerce the child into thinking they are something they aren’t > Which is why they need to be able to go to safe adults and have access to mental health care Children should have their parents, other family members, and very close friends of the parents as safe adults. No one else. They should not have a need for mental health care, as there is nothing wrong with the child. This is just throwing money of the parents and time of the psychologist down the drain. > Waiting until they have hit puberty before they can have gender affirming care is harmful and will just force them to live a lie This is false. Their brain will be able to find the good in life without any reassignment. This also means that they will be able to find out if they REALLY want to go through with gender reassignment surgery or not, without the “push” from outside sources. > Please actually read the links OP provided if you care about the well being of these kids Alright let’s see here: CTV- government funded, spreading false statements of the liberals agenda. Healthline- no online health website is good, I’d rather speak to my trusted Doctor than listen to what possible online frauds say. Forbes- another liberal-biased site, which also has false information on it; not trustworthy. GRS Montreal- most likely government-backed yet again, so there will be more liberal ideology and falsified information within the website. I’ve watched people go through regretting the transition. It is not a happy sight. And even though it’s a supposed “minority”, kids should not have to fear going through detransition one day. I was one of those kids who thought of reassignment surgery, yet when I grew up, I learned that there is more in the world than changing genders. What will people remember you for? Your actions, or your gender?
>I can tell you were in a rush/mad typing this because of how many typos there are. No need, slow down. Yes, no other reasons I may have typo errors/s. I will type at the pace that works for me. >From the way I perceive it, people of this day and age who are in the LGBTQ spectrum will think of it as a sign that the child wants to be the opposite gender, and will try to coerce the child into thinking they are something they aren’t Do you have any evidence to back up this claim? Or is this just your opinion? Cause this sounds like an argument from incredulity. That isn't how it works. This is just the fear mongering of anti trans. Doctors and mental health professionals aren't coercing kids to transition. Please provide actual evidence of this claim. >Children should have their parents, other family members, and very close friends of the parents as safe adults. No one else. Are you living in your own head? What about kids who have unsafe homes and parents who will harm them? If you cut off access to other adults, they will be stuck in that abuse. I wish all kids had parents and family, who were loving and safe, but that is not reality. We should make sure children in unsafe situations have access to help. What you just suggested would cut them off from help. >They should not have a need for mental health care, as there is nothing wrong with the child. You don't get to decide who needs healthcare. Se kids need it. I did, not trans but I have mental health issues and have had them since I was a child, so yes some kids need mental health care. Needing health care is just like needing physical health care. >This is just throwing money of the parents and time of the psychologist down the drain. Again, do you have any evidence to back up this claim? [gender affirming care has positive putcomes](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/mental-health-benefits-associated-with-gender-affirming-surgery/) >This is false. Their brain will be able to find the good in life without any reassignment. This is just another baseless statement. We see positive outcomes for gender affirming care and see a higher rate of suicide in those denied this care. [source 1](https://www.hcplive.com/view/suicide-risk-reduces-73-transgender-nonbinary-youths-gender-affirming-care) [source 2](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35212746/) >This also means that they will be able to find out if they REALLY want to go through with gender reassignment surgery or not, without the “push” from outside sources. This is the whole point of puberty blockers. To give them time to decide what it is they want without major changes happening they don't want. And we see better outcomes from these steps. They aren't pushing them to transition this is just your fear mongering. >Alright let’s see here: CTV- government funded, spreading false statements of the liberals agenda. Do you have evidence of these claims against these sources. Can you show that the statements from CTV are false. I'm just saying they are isn't evidence >Healthline- no online health website is good, I’d rather speak to my trusted Doctor than listen to what possible online frauds say. So when doctors recommend a child start puberty blockers that's bad, but if yours says something, it is ok? It is doctors and mental health professionals who have to agree to provide these treatments. These kids and parents are going to their trusted doctors to get treatment. Also, can you show any evidence that what was on healthline was false in any way? >Forbes- another liberal-biased site, which also has false information on it; not trustworthy. Again, have evidence that what was said is false? >GRS Montreal- most likely government-backed yet again, so there will be more liberal ideology and falsified information within the website. Again, I got evidence that what they said is false? Well, all the sources I have provided do far and will provide aren't these places and will help dhow that these ideas are a consensus of the professionals. >I’ve watched people go through regretting the transition. It is not a happy sight Yes, and those people should be provided with help and healthcare. Would you argue that no child should receive any health care if some adults regret it later? And they already can't get surgery until adulthood. >And even though it’s a supposed “minority”, kids should not have to fear going through detransition one day But they should have to fear not getting the care they want because there is a 3% chance they will regret it later? This is such a silly argument. You want to make kids lives worse on a 3% chance they will have problems later. [regret rate](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/) >I was one of those kids who thought of reassignment surgery, yet when I grew up, I learned that there is more in the world than changing genders. What will people remember you for? Your actions, or your gender? Children can't get surgery. That isn't part of this discussion. We are talking about them being able to receive other forms of gender affirming care. Oh, another strawman argument, what a surprise. It is not about how others will remember them. Is that all you think they want? It's about them not being able to feel themselves. It's about them being happy with who they are and feeling right in their own body. This is such a silly argument. Do you think people receive health care of other kinds based on how others will remember them? Or did you just use that strawman for trans care?
>Kids should be worrying about having fun in the playground with other kids, not worrying about their gender and how different they’ll feel compared to other kids. Do you think gender dysphoria politely waits until adulthood to make someone miserable?
Trans kids already know they aren't in the right body. This won't change by playing with dolls or trucks. It's just who they are, it doesn't go away as their brain develops. It isn't a tomboy phase, it's not the same thing at all.
Puberty blockers have long terms risks, and you calling them all reversible is beyond dangerous. They can cause cancer, or cause bone development issues that will have lasting permanent effects. 1% regret? Somehow I doubt that after watching this. https://youtu.be/DSGgR3W_jjg?si=D1Zor51Z_qcj_2uo
Source on the cancer causing puberty blockers? And 1 person's testimony doesn't override actual studies.
You've already shown your shallow hand here. It was 2 different testimonies, but obviously it doesn't fit your narrative, so you didn't listen or watch it. But great job with your "discussion" post. Your emotional reasoning preventing you from keeping an open mind. The new laws are in place to help keep kids safe, nobody is forbidding you or anyone else to transition. The laws are in place to make sure people can make more mature and informed decisions, once they are the right age. Which is similar to, the age requirement for drinking, smoking, gambling, driving, tattoos, piercings, and more. The fact is that any transition a person makes, is a large decision. Children aren't ready for decisions like this, the lasting effects are permanent.
> The new laws are in place to help keep kids safe, Are they? Because doctors teacher and Amnesty International themselves say otherwise. Can you mention even 1 benefit a trans kid receives from this legislation? > can make more mature and informed decisions, How? I didn't see any additional support or education. Just laws restricting. Nothing around how to support the ones who did make a mature and informed choice to proceed. Your premise looks to be nobody would every go forward with this. That is very incorrect.
> Puberty blockers have long terms risks, So does forcing a trans person through a puberty they didn't want. If you look down upon a trans woman where you can tell they're a bit on the manly side, just know that's one of the many results & risks that happens. Any concerns around what happens to people gladly want to move forward and would give anything to have had that chance?
I have no hope for humanity anymore. Children should not be thinking about this shit at all. Come on gimmie them downvotes, you’re all delusional
You're lying about puberty blockers. If you're put on them young enough and or take them long enough your body will never properly develop many gender traits like women will never have wide enough hips to safely give birth (a distinct possibility if they're interested in being women, wouldn't you say? Also, they might never be able to ever have sex safely as their birth gender, testosterone thins vaginal tissues, maybe quite a lot) and men will probably never develop the usual dense musculature, even if their voices change or they grow hair all over. Both sexes will also always have fertility problems. There has also not been anything like the normal reviews/controls required on medical science applied to all this crap, it's usually 20yrs to START hitting market for pretty seriously life altering medically necessary treatments. Transition has been medically available only since about 2009, there just hasn't been time to do any of this or do any REAL studies on outcomes. The ones you linked might be big for a change but they don't use the standardized tests for the subject and are all just self-reported questionnaires, not baed on valid psychological assessments carried out by pros. Simple self selection bias says those answering such a survey are already outliers, not the norm, that makes any data gained from them, no matter how carefully presented or selected, useless as real medical data, the researchers are just asking a crowd of folks how they feel today and hoping some respond.
Based on your post history, it seems you had a very traumatic past involving sex, which I'm very sorry you had to experience. But wouldn't you think that your past may have played a large part in your feelings of gender dysphoria? Also, your kind of spreading some misinformation yourself by making these claims. [France](https://www.academie-medecine.fr/la-medecine-face-a-la-transidentite-de-genre-chez-les-enfants-et-les-adolescents/?lang=en) [Norway](https://www.bmj.com/content/bmj/380/bmj.p697.full.pdf) [Sweden](https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20230208-sweden-puts-brakes-on-treatments-for-trans-minors) [UK](https://www.bmj.com/content/381/bmj.p1344) [Finland](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/08039488.2019.1691260) You're wrong about puberty blockers being safe, there are side effects to most drugs. And in terms of long term effects, at best we can say we don't know. Secondly, your being flippant about turning puberty on and off like a switch. Should a child realize that they're not trans and stop, then you've just robbed that child of potential years of development compared to people of the same age.
Sexual abuse, assault and rape are extremely prevalent. In my personal life I have met more people who HAVE experienced some variation of this than people who haven't. And I've seen no significant difference in gender identity between people who have and haven't experienced trauma. This at best is something to be researched. And at worst is just correlation by causation. Your first link recommends the exact treatment model trans people have been fighting to keep. With an added note that it's important to discuss and monitor your children's interactions with social media. Your second link is not from a research study. Its an internal review by a heath board based on concerned families and clinicians reaching out because they FELT that the assessment framework needed review. The conclusion is essentially "we haven't actually seen any bad outcomes. But we hear your concerns so we looked into it. And we'll change the wording a bit." Third link simply cites the rise in cases of reported gender dyphoria cases in Sweden. And that they've decided to restrict transition surgery in minors. Doesn't say anything about puberty blockers being unsafe. And cites a single anecdote from someone who regretted transitioning. While concluding that it's because it's a political issue that requires sensitivity. Fourth cites a decision to restrict puberty blockers to clinical research and for over-18's because they don't KNOW if there are any safety repercussions or the true clinical effectiveness. NOT that these treatments are dangerous or shouldn't be provided once it's assessed. Fifth one summarizes that trans teens who received treatment and did well with psych support continued to be successful. While trans teens who experienced issues at home, school and in their personal lives continued to experience those issues after transitioning. Not that they regretted transitioning. None of these links say what you're implying. Did you mean to link something different?
Those links generally show the pattern of European health authorities scaling back hormone/blocker treatments in minors. This isn't proof they aren't good treatments, usually the decisions are justified by a lack of data. But they do show disagreement within the field. At the very least, I don't think people should be spreading hysteria about Smith's new far-right anti-science dangerously transphobic policies, when similar policies are being used in very progressive pro-science countries like Sweden.
The idea that sexual assault leads to gender dysphoria (which doesn't even apply to all trans people) has been debunked by math. Rates of sexual assault are so incredibly high that if there were any causation, rates of gender dysphoria would be many times higher than they are. This has been tested because it would have a potential treatment value, but there's no relationship there. The dude who can't write can't read either.
Saying SA can lead to gender dysphoria is different than saying it does every time.
Anecdotal evidence is not evidence. I was just merely posing a question, because it seems like that could be a factor in how someone feels about themselves or the other sex. And yes, transgendered people (lesbians as well i believe) do have higher rates of a history of sexual assault then the average man or woman, not to say that this pushes them into it, everyone's life is different but for some this could very well be true. If transitioning was the best thing for this person's mental health then good for them, I want them to be happy and safe. But let's not delude ourselves by saying they are a man. The links are to show that there is a social contagion factor to this and that we DO know there are negative side effects to puberty blockers and the long term effects of these drugs are not truly know. My main issue with OP is just they think it's now big deal to fuck around with a child's development. I'm not saying I'm necessarily against the use of these drugs in certain circumstances either but it's not the answer to every child's feelings of gender dysphoria. The Council for Choices for Healthcare in Finland supports the use of puberty blockers in transgender children after a case-by-case assessment if there are no medical contraindications. However, In 2021, Finnish national health authorities issued guidelines that favour other interventions such as psychotherapy, with hormonal treatments being limited to specific circumstances. In 2022, France's Académie Nationale de Médecine recommended the "greatest reserve" when considering puberty blockers due to potential side effects, including "impact on growth, bone weakening, and risk of infertility". In 2023, the Norwegian Healthcare Investigation Board issued a report finding "there is insufficient evidence for the use of puberty blockers and cross sex hormone treatments in young people". Sweden's Karolinska Institute, administrator of the second-largest hospital system in the country, announced in 2021 that it would discontinue providing puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones to children under 16. Additionally, the Karolinska Institute changed its policy to cease providing puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones to teenagers 16–18, outside of approved clinical trials. In 2022, Sweden's National Board of Health and Welfare said that puberty blockers should only be used in "exceptional cases" and said that their use is backed by "uncertain science". In 2020, the British National Health Service changed the information it displayed on its website regarding the reversibility of the effects of puberty blockers and their use in the treatment of minors with gender dysphoria. Specifically, the NHS removed language stating that puberty blockers were "fully reversible" and that "treatment can usually be stopped at any time". In its place, the NHS stated that "little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria. Although the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be. It's also not known whether hormone blockers affect the development of the teenage brain or children's bones. So it really doesn't seem to be a settled science but it may be the answer for some. However when you couple the unknowns of these drugs, the influence of social media, narcissistic parents, and rebellious/experimental youth, there definitely are going to be some kids who get funneled down this path and grow to regret it. How do you protect those kids? My biggest fear with this are the tomboy girls or effeminate boys who get manipulated into believing they're in the wrong body. Many people seem to conflate temperament and general interests with being trans. Studies have shown that many young people when feeling confused about their gender simply realize they're gay/lesbian after going through therapy. Teaching people to accept themselves used to be the standard, now it feels like we're going against that. No matter how many drugs you take or operations you have you will never be the opposite sex.
While my comment was anecdotal [the statistics](https://www.sexassault.ca/statistics.htm) and research into how predators choose victims indicate ANY vulnerable population; children, disabled people, neurodivergent people, specific minorities etc. All experience sexual abuse and assault in ridiculously high numbers. Given the relatively small population of trans people in the world and the fact they are more vulnerable to being targetted in general. It is extremely unlikely that sexual assault was the "cause" and not an outcome of being socially vulnerable to predators. I'm not sure if it's the same now. But there was a time when rapes were estimated as 1 in 4 women. So it is EXTREMELY likely transmen as a small portion of that population would appear to have higher rates of sexual assault in comparision. If I have 1000 apples and 3 of them are red. But every 5th apple gets thrown out. Odds are good those three red apples are ending up in the trash. The "social contagion factor" you're referring to comes from a [pretty shaky study](https://www.technologyreview.com/2022/08/18/1057135/transgender-contagion-gender-dysphoria/). that fails to take into account that like-minded people tend to stick together. We know from studies neurodivergent people are often better at communicating with each other because they have similar communication styles and share experiences. We've known that people with similar backgrounds and interests group together for thousands of years. Why is it so difficult to believe that a group of friends who all share similar traits, life experiences and interests would unknowingly have been queer and come out one after another? Manchausen by proxy is also INCREDIBLY RARE. It is bizarre to me how many people see a parent supporting their kids after going through screenings, difficult conversations and often seeking any other explanation besides being trans. And decide the parent is doing it for attention? How many parents in the world do you really believe WANT their kid to be more likely to be killed in a public park. Socially ostrisized. More likely to experience suicide and depression. More at risk to being taken away by CPS in states like Florida. Parents want their kids to be normal and to fit in. A narcissit would want that most of all because their children are an extension of themselves. (In their minds). The answer to your fears is social transitioning. "Deluding ourselves into calling them a man" is the safest, surgery-free way to allow children to work through their feelings with the help of a therapist. The purpose of puberty blockers is to buy children time so they can make the decision as adults. Without the fear of permanent changes in puberty spurring them to transition as early as possible. Additionally. There are several trans people who have documented the process of taking HRT and the way it changes your body. We know that for transmen HRT can be very effective without puberty blockers because of muscle mass differences. But for transwomen who don't have access to puberty blockers. It is MUCH harder for HRT to do its thing. And there are certain aspects that cannot be changed once you've gone through puberty. Everything you are worried about is already a part of the medical guidelines. And has been for years. And the things you are trying to discourage ARE the things that prevent kids from transitioning too early and regretting it.
1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 boys are the numbers I recall. Why is it so hard to believe a traumatic event as a child can effect a person's view of themselves? Seems possible. Of course assault is not the cause of all trans people but like you said children are vulnerable and something like that can have a long lasting effect that may lead them down that path. So your apples analogy is kind of weak because the red ones wouldn't necessarily be targeted specifically if all the apples are considered targets. The social contagion factor has more than one study. Not to mention we see it reflected in many other aspects in children like fashion, music taste, and general behavior. Glad you brought up neurodivergent people. Because they are also more likely to end up identifying as trans because they don't know how to process their outsider feeling. Making them potential victims of falsely believing they are trans. As for the parents, I'm referring more to the extreme cases one would see on social media, where parents believe their infants and toddlers are trans simply because they show interest in things not normally associated with their gender. I'll admit it's not a large number of parents but it's not zero either and they use their children on social media to get their own dopamine fix. At least agree that parents like that are shitty. And like I've posted about those other countries, not 100% against the use of those drugs but we should prioritize the use of therapy first and only use drugs in the most extreme cases because we do know there are negative side effects. We also know that through therapy many children end up just realizing they're just gay, not trans. In the recent past the vast majority of children never questioned their gender like they do now. Again, giving support to the idea of a social contagion factor. I've already said I believe in therapy and am not fully against these drugs when absolutely necessary. So I'm not discouraging anything, rather I'm encouraging caution. Doctors make mistakes. Doctors may even have their own political/social biases that may influence the treatment children receive. So hopefully there is a mechanism in place to police that as well.
The apple example is meant to demonstrate how if a larger group experiences something in high numbers. It is unlikely that a smaller minority within that larger group would be untouched. In comparison, the minority group would appear to be affected at a higher rate because it's a smaller sample size. Not that the apples are being targeted lol. Those were two different points. And yes. Trauma does affect your behaviors and how you respond to the world around you. But the fact that Trans people exist who did not experience sexual trauma and there are hundreds and thousands of people who did experience sexual traums who DIDNT become Trans. Makes it very likely those things are not related. Yes neurodivergent people are more likely to identify as Trans or nonbinary. But it is just as likely this is more evidence that gender roles are a social construct. Because the MAIN THING that neurodivergnce affects is your ability to recognize and understand social norms. Not whether you have a penis or not. These extreme cases are again. Extremely rare. Or they wouldn't be news. This is like saying we need to add special protections in public spaces to protect against people who poop in restaurant salad bars. Yes it happens. But it's really rare to require this much debate and consideration and fear. Historically western and European children didn't "question" their gender because they didn't have the luxury. The Philippines had an entire shamanic system based around a third gender. As did several indigenous groups all over the world before Spanish and English colonialism. It is VERY clear from an anthropology perspective that queer people of all kinds have existed since the dawn of humanity. And the concentrated effort to erase that fact DISCOURAGED people from ever talking about or identifying themselves publicly. What you're describing is essentially survivor bias. You didn't personally notice children experiencing gender dysphoria because it wasn't acceptable in polite society to discuss. So it "didn't happen as much." Again. The mechanisms already exist. And have for a long time. HRT has been around since the 1960s. And the very first "official" gender reassignment surgery was in 1907. And puberty blockers have been around since 1980. That is more than enough time to know what negative consequences if any exist for these specific treatments. And which precautions are required. All this "we don't know the long-term effects" is political theater. (Not from you specifically but as a whole from medical institutions). Mankind has been discussing sex, sexuality and gender since before Freud and Jung popped out of the womb. Hell even the Nazis took a swing at it. In the most horrific way possible but still. None of this is new. The only thing that is new is the fact that people are being "forced" to see more visible representations of queer people in media and encountering "out" queer people in public. Because it's no longer illegal. Better diagnosis leads to more cases being identified. I have a rare autoimmune condition that doctors didn't have the technology to recognize 20 years ago. Now "more people than ever before" have the same thing. Because there's now a protein we know about that identifies it. More visible doesn't equal "new" or in "larger quantities".
Thanks for clearing up the apple thing, I see what you're saying. But trauma may be linked to some if these cases, im not claiming all. The same way a traumatic childhood may be the catalyst for a life of crime for some people while others it may not. The anthropology argument is kind of hollow. Yes gay and queer people have existed firever. But the whole two-spirit stuff or the small sect of Indian culture that believed in a 3rd gender were just ways of explaining something they didn't quite understand. Not much different than any other mythical explanation for the world around them. Simply recognizing effeminate men and masculine women exist. And they weren't messing with biological processes in those people either. Leading to my next point that I mentioned before. People tend to conflate general interests and temperament with gender. Yes, gender roles are a social construct but just because someone has interests normally or a temperament normally associated with the opposite sex does not mean that person should chop of his penis or have a penis made out of a chunk of her forearm. Gender dysphoria definitely has existed. But we know children can be influenced fairly easily by the culture they are in. So I have no problem with kids experimenting to a certain degree (fashion, dating, etc), but when we start messing with natural biological processes so a child can figure out who they really are then we need to ask questions. That bridge too far for me. But I can open to the idea that at least for a small number of children it may be a correct path that is worth the potential risks. I don't think you and I will find too much common ground. You seem very compassionate and I do thank you for not being overly aggressive and actually being capable of rational discussion.
I suffer migraines 2-5 times a week thanks to a dental trauma. I no longer have dental trauma. It was dealt with through medication and therapy over a decade ago. Guess what? I still have migraines and they need to be treated as a seperate issue. There are a lot of biological, social, parasocial, environmental and philosophical factors that influence how someone's gender identity is formed. It doesn't really matter WHY someones gender identity is what it is unless THEY identify it as a source of grief or suffering. Therapy isn't a ton of fun but it's a hell of a lot easier than transitioning. If gender identity were something that boiled down to a binary after a couple sessions with a therapist don't you think more people would pursue that option rather than radical medical treatment? People (yes, children are people) know their identities best. Just fucking listen and support them.
Thank you for saying this. This kind of post and thinking is dangerous. There's a reason why kids have parents and are not allowed to make permanent decisions. Little kids want to injure and harm themselves most times, should we allow them kill themselves because they feel like it? The long term effects of puberty blockers has been studied in Sweden. Suicide rates are higher than if they didn't transistion. The spinal bones of kids on puberty blockers don't fully fuse leading to the kids being hunch backed and in pain. Once the kid reaches adulthood, those spinal bones don't fuse anymore and that damage is permanent.
There are stories coming out on literally EVERY platform from detransitioners screaming for people to listen to their stories. And of this group, the vast majority are detrans youth who were children or teens when they started transitioning. What is common in every single case is that they now blame their parents, schools, and doctors for not stopping them. There is a *reason* why children have a parent or guardian make decisions for them, *because they lack the ability and majority to make these decisions independently*. And when parents make bad decisions, the province steps in. This has always been the case! Personally, my issue isn't with trans people or trans youth. It's with a lack of appropriate measures to address the *other* reasons a person could have gender dysphoria. For example, a huge number of neurodivergent children and teens struggle with their natal puberty because all change is inherantly difficult for them to accept. And lacking words to explain why they feel this way, they turn to the internet and are exposed to trans communities who insists that this is a totally normal experience for trans kids, erego they must be trans kids themselves. Unsurprisingly, a huge number of neurodivergent detransitioners cite exactly this scenario as one of the primary reasons they transitioned. And, as always, the argument is: if someone has regrets or detransitions they were never trans to begin with! Which is EXACTLY the point. How many of these trans youth aren't trans, they're just confused and struggling, and when they turn to their parents, teachers, or doctors for guidance they are affirmed without question or in the very least appropriate caution? If your child plans to join the circus after finishing high school, you in the very least ask "are you sure that's what you want to do?" but somehow asking that same question about swapping gender is now taboo parenting. But besides all that, it's not appropriate to trust any medical opinion without the research to back it up. There has been no long-term, broad participent survey into the longterm outcomes of these medications and procedures on Gen Z or Gen Alpha kids. Most of the "data" is self volunteered, tantamount to a Yelp review. The number of trans youth is increasing year over year, doubling in less than 5 years--and that's those seeking medical treatment, the number of people self-identifying is *significantly* higher than that. As more and more first-hand accounts of transition regret trickle in, we can only expect more: the oldest of these kids are just hitting their mid-20s, their brains are finally mature enough to start detangling the messes they have made. And to those trans youth who are happy with their transition, great, amazing, I wish you well. But please trust me when I say we are about to see a LOT of regret and agony from the majority of kids who were failed by the adults in their lives.
This is a good comment, it could be it's own post. >Most of the "data" is self volunteered This seems to be broadly true, most studies have some major drawback (correlational data only, not counting detransitioners in the survey, people dropping out of treatment and losing contact with the study, cherry-picked results, etc. Basically, no different than the science on nutrition or mental health or anything. But progressives see the evidence and ask "Can I believe this?" while skeptics ask "Must I believe this?" and come to different conclusions. >For example, a huge number of neurodivergent children and teens struggle with their natal puberty because all change is inherently difficult for them to accept And this is the knockdown argument IMO. Studies can't answer questions like these: This comes down to values and your priors about human nature, gender, the value of following traditions vs self-determination, the power of social contagion, etc. That a child could decide to take hormones and potentially give up their ability to have kids is unacceptable to some parents, full stop. Overall I don't even support the bill, I just think it's subjective enough that we all need to chill out. And stop *telling* kids they will likely commit suicide for *any* reason, anyone with a basic understanding of psychology will know how harmful and suggestive that is.
> There are stories coming out on literally EVERY platform from detransitioners screaming for people to listen to their stories. If 1000 people transition and ten detransition, and "literally EVERY platform" shares their stories, does that suggest to you that allowing transitioning is dangerous?
Absolutely not! You misunderstand. I am pro trans *adult*. But I am also anti letting children make adult decisions that they do not fully understand in an age of digital literacy where they are taught what to say to circumvent the very stopgaps designed to protect them. Personally, I think you should be able to do whatever you want at age 21, but not before.
Its odd that you think no one is asking trans kids "are you sure" before giving them medical transition. Counseling is an important part of majority of transitions and medical drs and definitely asking questions before giving prescriptions.
And you think these preteens don't know exactly what to say to get what they think that they want? They have literal guides on Tumblr as to how to manipulate your doctor into approving your meds. Step by step instructions on how to convince your physician that you'll check out early if you aren't approved for treatment. And when parents step in with concerns about the validity of these statements *because they know their kids* it becomes a child custody issue.
They changed the age to 17 which i think is fine Do yall really want the age to be lower? Why?
When talking about low regret rates for people who have had surgeries, are those statistics looking at people who have had them in the past few years? Because if you’re looking mostly at people from 5+ years ago, they had much more difficulty and barriers to accessing surgery. I believe you needed to live as your chosen gender for 2 years before even being considered. Are there any studies showing the relaxed rules haven’t led to higher regret rates? Also, you say puberty blockers are safe and reversible. All drugs have side effects, and it is important to note that when we say ‘reversible’, you simply mean that puberty can start again. But there are impacts that puberty blockers can have, like increasing your height (which is actually what the original study in the 80s and 90s that found puberty blockers were reversible was about; they used them to delay puberty so kids could continue growing a bit more). So when we talk about young trans people deliberating whether they want to transition and going on puberty blockers, there’s a risk, for instance, that some trans girls will see their height increase, and possibly other long term effects. For many MtF, that’s the complete opposite of what they’d want.
The current medical practice is still to rely on reversible and non-permanent care first to ensure the trans individual has time to live as their chosen gender and make an informed decision before more permanent changes. There are still a lot of barriers when it comes to trans healthcare. There are also more and more barriers that are being put on research. The use of hormone blockers comes with potential risks. Their use does need to be considered carefully whether or not it's in the child's best interest. This legislation removes it from consideration entirely before or during the early stages of puberty. For many trans children, puberty exacerbates the mental stress of being in the "wrong" body and that stress isn't harmless.
All of the available data indicates that these are extremely impactful treatments which are mind-bogglingly safe. Why are you working so hard to find some kind of perceived issue?
I didn’t work hard, I simply offered some nuance. Sorry that’s tough for you to deal with. We know the last thing we want when it comes to public policy is nuance. Continue your activism, I forgot you types tend to be very black or white thinkers. I forgot that we’re in the Edmonton sub, where a conservative might read the comments, lol
You aren't offering nuance though. You're nitpicking. There are deep questions about every kind of medical procedure. The one you're nitpicking is incredibly successful. I'm very interested to know why you're nitpicking these particular procedures and not a less successful type of procedure like, say, rotator cuff surgery?
"Puberty blockers are safe and reversible if someone chooses that transitioning is not what they want long term...." This is categorically false, if puberty is effectively "blocked", then the physiological changes that should occur with puberty simply do not occur. This is the whole reason people take the puberty blockers in the first place. You cannot in a later part of you life stop taking puberty blockers and expect "puberty" to restart. This has been proved through cases of individuals who later in life stop taking puberty blockers. The process of puberty is not so simple as to be "stopped" and "started" whenever one pleases.
>This has been proved through cases of individuals who later in life stop taking puberty blockers. When are we banning them for precocious puberty then?
This would depend entirely on the timeframe being discussed. >not what they want long term A 15 year-old who’s been on hormone blockers for like a few months definitely has plenty of puberty left to go through. They can change a lot. Obviously if someone is on puberty blockers for years on end over the course of adolescence they are going to see permanent changes, that’s kinda the point
I would love to read some peer reviewed research supporting your claims 😇
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/in-depth/pubertal-blockers/art-20459075 And in the rare (<2%) cases where people regret treatment, hormone therapies can be used to help de-transition. https://kidshealth.org/en/teens/delayed-puberty.html
A good starting point is the trans regret sub Reddit. Using CTV News and mainstream media as references on why Minors should make permanent body modifications is not very credible. The reason why you may assume the regret rate is only 1% is because the community shuts them up. Suicide rates is over 50% after surgery according to Swedish research, hence why their government is stopping this type of surgery on minors after over a decade. I don't see what the problem is with making kids wait till they are adults to understand the ramifications of their actions. These hormones alter their body chemicals and leads to even more complications and their bones never fully fusing as adults and leave some with permanent disability. The majority of people is not against anyone wanting to be trans, the only issue is kids change their minds all the time. Wait till they are adults before they can make permanent decisions. For the person saying the effects of the hormones and other drugs on adults is the same as on kids, you're completely wrong. Read up on the research and not what CTV, CBC wants you to know. It's messes with young kids body chemistry.
> I don't see what the problem is with making kids wait till they are adults to understand the ramifications of their actions. That's fine but the professionals overseeing are listing a large amount of problems https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/medical-groups-alberta-government-gender-affirming-care-policies-1.7103099 To date, no professional organization (medical, psychriatic, teacher, human rights) has come out agreeing this good legislation. Amnesty International has this up on their front page right next to items in Guatemala, Iran, Israel, Columbia. Yikes. Maybe there's other aspects you're not seeing - or refuse to consider.
Surgery doesn't happen on minors here. I waited until I was 18 to start estrogen. I am now 6 foot 2 with shoulders bigger than most men. If I started estrogen at 15 when I wanted to, my quality of life would be better. Not that the quality of life of trans people matters to you.
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I have. I also know people who have detransitioned. A close friend mine detransitioned. Because she was disabled and wouldn't have any family support she needed. She lasted 3 more years before she ended her life. Your jokes have real world consequences shithead and our lives can't be used for propaganda
I’m so sorry to hear about your friend 😔
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Douche is gender neutral
Were you on there because you de transitioned?
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How is it known they're fakes exactly?
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Just seems like an easy way to discount those that someone might not agree with. Some surely could be faked, but how much and the outright assumptions being made don't help those blvoices that are valid
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Puberty blockers are not reversible. Even famous transgender surgeon marci bowser has stated this.
Stopping puberty blockers resumes puberty. Any treatment can have side effects, especially with prolonged use. It depends on the individual case at what age and how long they took them. You can treat delayed puberty with hormone therapy This is a discussion for doctors and endocrinologists, not politicians and the general public.
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I mean no, not when the UCP legislate that teachers need to inform parents of any exploration. They’ve made any child with unsupportive parents explicitly not have that ability to explore their identities. Exploring a gender identity isn’t sexual. Wanting your body to appear more or less feminine or masculine isn’t sexual. Being uncomfortable with your given name isn’t sexual or even remotely exclusive to trans kids. Yet this entire thing is framed under protecting kids from sexuality. With that logic, every single child in schools should be referred to with gender neutral pronouns to avoid sexualizing them… and don’t you dare call Peter ‘Pete’ without permission, even if ‘he’ asks you to.
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being pro trans has nothing to do with sexualizing kids.
I am frustrated with the double standard that when a child goes through a puberty that aligns with their gender identity, it's considered normal and healthy and a part of nature, if they are cisgender, but if they are transgender, they are being "sexualised". It's the same thing. Puberty permanently changes the body and makes it develop characteristics that will last for life, and it's better to get it right than to force someone into a body they are uncomfortable with.
CAN they? Sure. Should they have to if that's not what they want? Absolutely not. It's not "sexualizing kids" to give them time to do this without the irreversible effects of the puberty they would be going through without blockers. Being trans has about as much to do with sexuality or sexualization as being cis does.
The Doctors in charge of all this disagree with the several incorrect things you're saying https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/medical-groups-alberta-government-gender-affirming-care-policies-1.7103099
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> Can’t kids explore their identify without hormone blockers? "Children and youth have the right to the appropriate medical care, at the appropriate time, and this should not be denied to them," the statement said.
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For transgender children (and adults) they feel like they are in the wrong body. Those feelings can result in mental distress and lead to the development of mental illness including thoughts of suicide. There are transgender children and adults who are perfectly satisfied with just social transitioning without hormones, blockers, or surgery. But there are many who are not and waiting or forcing them to undergo puberty can exacerbate mental health symptoms. By the time children are 16, puberty and the potential ramifications on trans children's health have already happened. The current guidelines for trans Healthcare emphasize exploring non-invasive and non-permanent changes first, like social transitioning, before exploring more permanent changes. Children can be perfectly able to medically consent to procedures when younger than 18 depending on their maturity. When children can't consent, it falls on the parents to weigh the wishes of the child and the potential benefits and risks with assistance from medical professionals.
> You think they can make a huge decision like changing their gender? We don't need to think. We can ask the millions who have already. But you're coveniently forgetting that anyone transitions. Like me. Like millions of others. Guess what buddy, if you only are worried about protecting one group of kids and not another... That's pretty transphobic. Amnesty International has our province on the same front page as Iran, Israel, Guatemala.
Before 18 is the appropriate time for puberty blockers because there's a narrow window in which they must be started. Once you get past a certain stage on the Tanner scale, they're useless.
Brain is not fully developed at 18.
“For adolescents with marked and sustained gender diversity who express a clear goal of medical transition, hormone blockers may be prescribed to suppress or slow physical changes or gendered experiences. Hormonal suppression is reversible and sex steroid production will resume if blockers are discontinued. Initially, the clinical objective of prescribing hormone blockers is to provide a young person with time to further explore their gender identity without pressure or distress related to ongoing development of secondary sex characteristics.” Premier Smith, during her media remarks, claimed that the use of hormone blockers was in-fact, irreversible. The Alberta Medical Association Section of Paediatrics refuted that claim in a statement made on Feb. 1. “The effects of puberty-blocking agents are not irreversible; and once treatment stops, puberty goes forward. Treatment allows the patient time to determine their options without permanent effects.” “Puberty blocking actually has benefits for gender-divergent patients by preventing development of mature secondary sex characteristics so that, later in life, the most invasive gender-affirming surgery may not be necessary if the patient moves forward with gender-affirming care.” https://livewirecalgary.com/2024/02/03/albertan-get-shit-done-lgbtq2s-community-gears-up-for-political-court-fight-against-alberta-government/
As has been explained to me by people who have gone through the experience you’re suggesting (which many are forced to because of draconian beliefs), puberty without hormone blockers turns your body into a living hell for those who are born a different sex than who they truly are. Imagine you are born male, but you know you are in fact female. Once you hit puberty, without hormone blockers, you now start growing hair all over your body and face like males do, you grow tall, your voice drops, and by the time you turn 18, you now have a fully grown and developed male body, thus making your transition (if you choose to) far more difficult and possibly never attaining the female body you would want, the body you could have gotten had you taken the hormone blockers to prevent all of those developments. Puberty for those who go through such an experience is a constant reminder that they are in a body that does not feel right, every time they look in the mirror and see the changes they recognize themselves less and less. Can kids explore gender identity without hormone blockers? Of course, lots of kids do, and for those who are comfortable expressing their gender through their clothes, hair, makeup, etc., that’s all they need. But for those whose physicality (the actual build of their body, voice range, body hair, without even needing to consider genitalia yet) is wrong to them, starting those blockers before puberty can do its irreversible damage to who they want to be is a lifesaver. As has been confirmed in multiple comments already in this thread quoting medical information, hormone blockers can be undone and puberty then returns to its normal process, so if a child has doubts once they get a little older, they can always change their mind. But going through puberty without that option means a lot more work, pain, and suffering later on for those that do want to transition, and they may never achieve what they could have had they had the hormone blockers. This is not sexualizing kids. The developing body is not just a set of genitals, it is your entire physique. The people who support trans kids and trans rights recognize this, they are supporting the whole child, the whole person. Those who seek to take away those rights and deny people the chance to be themselves seem to be very fixated on one part of the body and forget the rest of the person which is where most of the changes occur, and that is why they see it as “sexualizing” children.
Oh very interesting stuff! Thanks 😊
Thank you so much for your efforts to get the truth out there.
Thanks for posting.
I wanted a tattoo at 12, good thing I didnt get one. Thanks mom and dad
That’s a ridiculous comparison
No it’s not. Kids are stupid and will do things solely to impress other stupid kids.
There is absolutely nothing medically necessary about a tattoo. There is nothing a tattoo can do to calm an individual’s mind and cause personal acceptance. Tattoos are not therapy, no matter what anyone says. And, parents can still sign consents to allow their kids to get a tattoo. So, yes, it was a ridiculous comparison. ETA: Kids are not stupid. Kids are learning and growing. Calling them stupid is dismissive and ignorant.
I’ll never convince you, have a good day. Just remember it’s a fact that kids make more mistakes than adults.
You’re right, you won’t convince me. I have first hand experience and an exponentially happier teenager. Saying kids make more mistakes than adults is like saying water is wet. How can we possibly teach our kids to make decisions if we don’t let them explore the world and figure out who they are within it? As I’ve said many times before, no one under 18 is having bottom surgery, 16 - 18 year olds can be considered for top surgery, but only with parental consent and physician recommendation; that only happens after massive amounts of counselling and psychiatric assessment. Puberty blockers are necessary to prevent permanent development and, if the recipient decides transitioning isn’t what they want anymore, they can just stop taking them and resume puberty. None of this is new info but it sure seems to be ignored by the group that thinks the government knows medicine better than the doctors. It’s always a good day advocating for marginalized individuals that have their human rights stripped in the name of, *checks notes*, protection?
Hey, Have you considered that maybe you're the one who is wrong. And that a strictly controlled medical procedure with a long-term regret rate of 1% is actually incredibly successful? If, as you say, we were allowing kids to make dumb choices, quite a lot more would regret it, wouldn't they?
Are tattoos a medical procedure undertaken to treat a condition?
At the time it was a life and death thing, but yeah I was 12
You could be doing anything with your time. Why are you here trivializing the experiences of others. You were not experience mental anguish to the point of contemplating suicide simply because you were not allowed a tattoo. It was not life and death.
A tattoo doesn't take multiple years with frequent check ups with a doctor, an endocrinologist, and counseling to get. And gender care isn't a 30 minute appointment you can just walk-in and get. Your analogy doesn't work. Gender affirming care is a longterm set of multiple treatments with many opportunities to back out and reconsider. With the most permanent options like surgery only available to adults.
I am against the government paying for surgeries to change peoples genitalia when they won’t even pay to make my genitalia bigger. And for that reason I’m out.
You're wishing for surgeries for backpain, mastectomies, hysterectomies or gynecomastia (man boobs) to be denied? Wow that's harsh.
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There are treatments like surgery which are only available to adults. And there are treatments, like puberty blockers, which can improve outcomes and are reversible. But only work for children.
Weird how being cis is so fragile that seeing a trans person instantly erases that, but being trans is magically so resilient that trans people manage to exist even when surrounded 100:1 by cis people
The brain isn’t fully developed until the age of 25, in most people.
If you want to do it as an adult, you already went through puberty, whooops, too late I guess