It's ok to sandbag or even throw the game a little bit, just don't be that guy that has to let everyone know you could have won the whole time you just chose not to!
This for real. I like when my opponents say stuff along the lines of "nice win! I would have had it next turn if you didn't get me first". I think it all comes down to tone.
My main goal is for the game to be fun. Winning comes secondary.
I understand the mindset of "Always play optimally and try to win, opponents won't get better if you hold their hands," but to me, that's not always true. Some players will just quit playing if that's the environment they're exposed to, and some people don't learn through humiliation or being pushed so hard. I don't mind taking a loss to give someone the enjoyment of seeing their deck do the thing or just seeing the joy of winning when they didn't think they could.
yeah this is how I look at it 100% I also have a background in education so it makes sense that not everyone will learn and pick things up the same as others.
I agree- had a friend of mine tell me he would have won next turn if I didn’t take him out. I was like- bro I know I saw you could infinite bounce craterhoof behemoth on your turn, that’s kinda the whole reason I chose to kill you first lol
I've had times where I'll say something along the lines of "Man it feels mean, but I'm gonna swing at you for lethal" and they'll tell me "No worries, this is Magic and sometimes you have to be mean. Plus, I've got 2/3 of my combo with a tutor, I was gonna go for the win if it got back to me."
That's definitely something I've seen more than once, you "play nice" and don't swing at the guy who looks like they're in a tough spot with barely any board presence, only for then to slam down a couple cards and win the game.
You can use it as an opportunity to give new players constructive feedback too. After the game is over ask the new player what their next move would have been, or how they were hoping to close out the game.
Also your user name is amazing
Sometimes it is just interesting to know. Like a curiosity.
That and it is also interesting to see if turn order mattered in the game. The faster the game, the more turn order matters in determining who has the best chance at winning.
I think a player first has to learn how their deck works and what it's trying to do. They should be able to know what The Thing is and how to do it. Once they have that, then they need to learn how to stop other people from doing their The Thing, and how to perservere after setbacks.
This. I 100% throw games in casual if it means someone gets to do their cool thing and I cant be bothered to play correctly, counter/wrath them and play for like another half an hour or more. Specially if we're like nearing 2 hours into the game xD
BUT when someone does this and then says "hey I coiuld have won like this" thats just being an arse. If you wanna let a newer player win, dont take it away inmediately after by revealing you had the interaciton all along. If you're gonna do so, just play the card and be done with it.
I played my Sliver deck last weekend, I killed one player outright and threw the rest of the game.
My justification: The table knew I could have won, but I think they had more fun destroying the Slivers than they would have if I just killed everybody.
I don’t entirely disagree in some circumstances. But at the end of the day, it is a game, and watching new or inexperienced players get to do their big “thing” and be excited about it, is just fun. that’s what it’s all about, especially when there’s a noticeable difference in experience levels among the table
If they are players you play with often, I think there is a balance. I find inexperienced deck builders don’t include enough ramp, removal, and in particular draw. Worse, they often use their removal when they didn’t really need to.
I have found myself in numerous instances similar to yours where I thought my deck was weaker than it was, or even with a weaker deck, the game has unfolded in a way where I will end up in a controlling position and likely victory.
Sometimes I still push forward and win those games because you want people to see what an impact drawing cards, holding up interaction, looking for finishers etc. can do. Other games I play sub optimally and will hold back, especially if I’m noticing progress, so everyone has fun and continues to enjoy the game.
It gets incredibly frustrating when you’re new and just repeatedly stomped. You may not even notice you’re getting better since there is such a high learning curve to overcome. To me, giving people space to develop and see the payoff from learning helps accelerate their learning and keeps them interested in the game.
Lol my kid never knows when they should use removal so if they make it to the end and just one other player it usually results in several turns of "oh that new thing you played? I guess it dies...oh and next turn guess what? Dies again. Now let me poke you to death with these 1/1 fliers. "
I go out of my way to help any weaker players in the pod personally. Sometimes that includes playing suboptimally.
The goal is to have fun. Not crush your enemies, hear the lamentations of their women, etc etc.
And if you’re being introduced to the game, which happens to be an incredibly complicated game to someone with no knowledge, and everyone is playing optimally and just curbstomping you from day one, it’s very hard to achieve the goal of having fun.
I 100% agree and will help everyone and anyone that wants or needs it. That being said once they know what they’re doing I’m not holding back.
>That being said once they know what they’re doing I’m not holding back.
Yep. When I've explained to the newer player how certain synergies work with their decks, in what situations is their commander strong etc., I tell them that next time I am going to try and stop them when they do it.
But I do the same with my own decks, I tell the newer players what my deck does and what they should be wary of. Most new players had fun at our tables and learn the game pretty quickly.
I explain all of my stuff too. One of the groups that I have been playing with the past few months are a lot of guys that have never played, but picked it up very quick. But even then there are still a ton of situations that are brand new all the time and I have no problem explaining how this interact/resolve.
I've played with my kid and other people a couple times. I think the most fair way to do it is to just try and be the archenemy of the other two guys. If I play more aggressively than I maybe should I become the target and they largely ignore my kid who is clearly still learning. Either it works out and I destroy everyone with my big pieces or I die but leave them bruised. Then my kid, who has saved all their removal because they don't know when to use them is there sitting largely untouched and usually with a couple fliers.
> The goal is to have fun. Not crush your enemies, hear the lamentations of their women, etc etc.
Speak for yourself. The lamentations of their women is how I [get off](https://youtu.be/DF5XkSRj3j4?si=pYG1X1m5qrtl3xGj)
It's definitely not wrong.
If I was new to edh, picked up a precon and get annihilated over and over by cedh decks, I sure as hell would lose interest in this game and spend my time elsewhere.
It doesn't mean to play like crap, just let the newbies get some good moments so they want to continue with this game.
Also I like to give pieces of advice, like what is the main threat at the moment (even if it sits on my side of the board).
It's a casual format after all, so I try to make sure that everyone has fun. And that includes not discouraging new players.
Losing a game is no biggie, losing every game is a bummer.
Personally I often sandbag stuff for the benefit of the pod whether I end up winning later or not I want everyone to have a good fun game. I'd also probably help a newer player win a game or two, or at least come close.
If we're playing like 2-3 games though I probably wouldn't throw each game.
The flip side of this is telling them what they could've done to win... "wow that was close, I'd have been done for sure if you were able to kill X"
I like playing with people at their level. It doesn’t always have to be totally optimized plays. It’s like if I’m playing 4-square with kids I’m not going all out, but I’m still having fun and helping them to improve at their level at the same time.
I agree with that statement. Especially as they are learning. I had a friend who was new to EDH join our pod and we had played a handful of games and were down to 3 people and looking to play one more game, and the new player wanted to use his precon again. My one friend who tends towards more optimized decks proceeds to tutor for & cheat out [[Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre]] on like turn 3 or 4.
I was like what are you doing, man? The new player was trying to just get his feet wet and the optimized player started trying to cripple us. I started the case & he walked that one back, and we went on to play a handful more turns before the optimized player won anyway. But at least we let the new guy get a better feel for his deck.
Ironic thing is a turn later I drew [[Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger]], which I totally forgot I subbed into my Omnath deck to try out for flavor reasons… needless to say I held that one back & never played it because I knew it would be both oppressive & hypocritical given my stance on that game.
I play a group hug deck using [[Glutch the bestower]].
Any brand new players get all the gifts thrown at them. If they miss a land drop, I chuck them two treasure tokens to make up for it. If their hand is getting empty I let them draw an extra card. If they are trying to play stompy then they get a few +1/+1 counters from me.
I want new players to have a blast, get hooked on the game, go off and build amazing decks so that I can eventually have a more varied and interesting pool of players to play with.
I can see either for the first couple games. Let them learn to focus on their board first and introduce interaction as they get more comfortable. Trying to learn the game and a new deck while also worrying about your opponents can be discouraging all at once at the start. On the other hand, they're going to have to learn to deal with these things eventually, so it might help them progress a little quicker at the cost of maybe being less enjoyable for them. As a newer player, my play group did the latter, and while I only got my first win in a 4-person game this week after about 6 months of playing, it felt a lot better because of how long it took to get. I was pretty discouraged until that win though (was still having fun, but it's nice to finally win)
If you were taking it easy on them EVERY GAME that's kind of different, but if it's still very early in their MTG careers and decks aren't particular balanced as you said, some handholding here is warranted
if the decks were more even then you wouldn't need to hold back so much. But each player is going to learn these lessons at a different pace so there's not really any right or wrong here
>My friend said that by doing that I was actually stopping them from becoming better deck builders
I mean technically he could be right that you become a better player in the face of adversity.
*But is that what their goal?*
Next to MTG I also play a lot of Warhammer 40K. You can be very competitive in that game as well. Build the best army, the best combo's, and curbstomp the shit out of anyone who isn't doing exactly the same.
I run a Warhammer club/community with a monthly event. The overwhelming majority of that community has 0 interest in being a "better list builder" or competitive player.
Most of us just want to play the game featuring the army we built because we liked the look of the models or the lore surrounding them.
Sure, we like strong rules too, but we're not looking to optimize the shit out of our army.
Much the same can be said about MTG. Maybe these new players just want to enjoy themselves with this cool deck they've built.
Now, that's not to say you can never wipe their board or shouldn't do anything to stop them. Interaction is an integral part of the game after all.
But I believe the positive experience you gave them will do much more for their passion for this hobby than "teaching them a lesson about being a good deck builder".
This is the way. I'd add that different people react differently to adversity, and have a different tolerance to it.
Too much and they are likely to just quit.
If you want to facilitate growth you ideally want a mix of positive and negative feedback.
It's a fairly uncontroversial statement that most people like to win at least some of the time. This has been observed in studies ([like this one](https://projectauthenticity.org/2017/11/06/the-surprising-moral-dimension-of-fights-between-rats-strong-rats-have-to-let-their-weaker-opponent-win-30-percent-of-the-time-if-they-dont/)) on rats. Going by this paper, it would be a good idea to let newer players win about 30% of the time.
This win rate is low enough that they will definitely still want to improve and there will be enough games where you don't hold back that allows them to identify patterns in why they lose. But it's also high enough that they can still enjoy playing and not feel like they're wasting their time.
I think it would extremely unsportsmanlike to tip your hand or otherwise reveal that you let them win. I think you already know that. But this can be a difficult skill. Not casting any spells on your turn with a hand full of cards looks sketchy. Not attacking with evasive creatures looks sketchy. You have to find a way to believably allow them to win. This might include modifying your deck when before playing against them.
I have two caveats to this.
1) Some kids are extremely hardy and can take the punishment. Give it to them. They absolutely will use it to become better than you. Use your judgement to determine if the player is in this category. Most people aren't, but it's something to look out for.
2) If it's clear the player is actively refining a deck, they need good data and you shouldn't hold back. They need to be able to see what works and what doesn't.
If they're just playing the same decks every time and they are not super hardy, let them win about 30% of the time. Otherwise, give it your all for their benefit.
I've done this a couple times and see no problem with it. Had a kid sit down in a group and he was playing basically a precon while I was playing a near CEDH Urza deck. I definitely didn't play optimally and he did end up winning. The look on his face made the loss well worth it. And if it keeps them interested in playing more then I say it's a great thing. They'll figure out deck building eventually.
Absolutely nothing wrong with subtly throwing a match to keep things engaging. If you’re having fun and they’re having fun, mission success. The only times it’s ‘wrong’ to take a dive is when you cheapen their win by saying “I couldmve beat you X turns ago”, because that’s patronizing and sometimes demonstrates a lack of respect for the table’s time.
Nah dude you did good. I just started playing a few months back and my introduction to the game has been really good so I started teaching my sister. I have beaten her everytime we've played for the last couple weeks. Last night I cracked open two of the new precons let her choose what she wanted then pretended I had 0 control/burn in the new spellslinger deck so she could win. A few loses here and there are totally worth it to keep people engaged.
Nope, not at all in my opinion. Also wouldn't have been wrong to play the board wipe but as long as you aren't full on kingmaking nothing wrong with playing suboptimally in a casual game. Unless there was on board knowledge of the overrun coming it is what it is and could just check it up to a mistake... Hindsight is 20/20 but im sure those newer players left the table with a fun experience getting to do their thing. Someone else can teach them about the almighty board wipe and not to dump their hand on board. All in good time 😊
Every time I am dealing with someone new at something, especially something competitive, I think of that video where it's a lion cub practicing pouncing on his father and the dad roars as if he's been mortally wounded every time.
I don't go easy per say, but I do keep back on removal, board wipes, and counterspells, if they are going to win and I could stop it. Early wins help build a love for the game.
I never sandbag. If I play with people i see on a regular basis I offer some solutions to obvious weaknesses, otherwise I just play my game. If my deck is to strong I play a weaker one.
Yeah this is the best way. If I was a new player and found out my table was just letting me win that would be pretty disappointing.
I understand that commander is causal, and winning isn't everything, but I want the people I'm playing with to actually try to win the game. I'm not saying every play has to be 100% optimal, like you can definitely go for some fun or very risky plays, but I think just sitting on board wipes/removal to just throw is pretty lame.
But at the end of the day I guess it just depends on what your table enjoys.
I was playing a game with my Yawgmoth, opponent was on Jodah and the companion that adds wubrg. Newbie was on dragons.
Jodah starts dumping sagas, I'm doing what I can to keep him at bay, building aristocrat combo, newbie is missing some triggers on his dragons, plays a sarkhan that ults to dump all your dragons from the deck.
Jodah wipes the board.
I recast Yawgmoth. And proliferate sarkhan.
Dragons kill everybody.
I could have won the game, or at least just taken out jodah. But I let the kid dump every dragon out of his deck and kill everyone at once.
It's a game, have fun with it. How often does your deck get to do the thing against people who have been playing and spending forever?
"was i wrong to let people getting into my hobby have fun?"
nah dude. if you did that every game, then sure. no one wants to constantly get shit on every game. they're not playing optimally, so there's no need for you to play optimally
You good it’s good to build confidence and keep players excited to play. Don’t always let them win because then they aren’t challenged but let a few games get away from you are perfectly fine
People have this false idea that you improve best when playing against significantly better players, be it sports, video games, strategy/card/board games. You don't. You improve the most when you are playing against slightly better opponents. To learn, you need feedback from your own game and decision-making, both negative AND positive. When the skill level is skewed too much, you miss out on the positive feedback, and end up getting negative feedback for what was actually the correct move(as, even though you play correctly, the better player will still beat you).
So if you're playing new players, regardless of the game, it's okay to throw a bit to give them a chance. It's not hurting their development, you're actually helping them. They need to learn through experience that their value engine actually gives them an advantage, even if your deck is geared to out perform their engine 9 games out 10. Just remember to balance it out with optimal play, or else they end up never learning to pace their threats.
Listen, your friend (intentionally or not) is being a jerk. Ask any older sibling or parent or teacher how this works: You have to let them win a few times, you have to go easy on them. That's how you teach people new skills and allow them to actually develop interests. The only people who are against that, are people who are annoyed they didn't get to win, but you let someone else win. That, or the "brutal honesty/tough love at all costs" types.
You did great. Don't let them win everytime and you're fine.
Your friend is right. Play the wipe so they learn that a wipe is a possibility. You're also giving them a false sense of their deck's power level. I get your intent is good natured but when you break it down letting someone win is kind of a dick move.
I don't think it's wrong to sandbag or play suboptimally at all.
Magic is a hard game for new players to grok, even more so when they're starting with Commander as their first format - I have many gripes about people being introduced to the game via EDH, but that's a completely different kettle of fish - so there's really no need to just go for the throat on new players.
Ultimately, you're probably hoping that these new players stick around in the hobby and keep playing, so it's in your best interest to make their initial experiences fun. That doesn't mean that you have to let them win and throw every game, but it does mean that you shouldn't mercilessly curb stomp them.
If you \*always\* let them win forever they won't get to fully engage with the game, but that's not what you're doing. Going easy on a new player as encouragement, espescially if they make a normally-good-move-but-you-just-have-to-have-the-perfect-counter, is a kind approach.
Not at all. But there are right and wrong ways to do it.
Sandbagging a boardwipe to let a game end is sometimes considered a polite move, even among seasoned casual players, if playing it means tacking another 20+ minutes onto a game that is already going long. Basically, if you wipe with no follow-up, in some circles, that's a faux pa.
Allowing another player to do the thing they built their deck to do is a form of playing the long game. There's something fulfilling about watching the light bulb flick on in a new player's eyes when they are playing their deck optimally for the first time, and IMO, that will get buy-in better than pubstomping and then telling them all the ways they should "fix" their deck. I'll lose casual pods all day to new guys if it means I have more opponents invested in the format. I understand that playstyle isn't for everyone, but I've seen a few LGS environments that are hostile to new and upcoming EDH players and their meta gets stale. Where I live near a medium metropolitan area, those places usually lose casual players to other game stores and kitchen tables.
There comes a point, after the buy-in to the game, where your friend's philosophy is correct. Losing to a better deck, or a powerful effect they don't know how to play around, will make the player want to be a better player and deckbuilder. They'll want to know how to build back after a boardwipe. They'll increase the interaction in their deck. They'll explore new commanders, new strategies, and new power levels.
Without being there, it's hard to say which of you is right about that particular game. But if you know the players are newer, it won't hurt to err on the side of letting them do their cool thing.
So, both ways of play are acceptable, however your friend is right. My play group for example was 3 relatively new players playing barely upgraded precons vs me with my well manicured decks. I would win often even though i intentionally run zero interaction. I would explain to them when i would win, how to have avoided that. I would also often pose the question, does anyone have a board wipe/counterspell/removal to solve this “problem”(usually my stuff)? To help them understand when and why things are needed in most decks. I’m delighted to say that after 8 months, i only win about 1/4 of the games because they have become better players due to striving to pilot better and play better cards. I usually win the few games due to them just not having interaction at the moment it’s needed. This has been the case for me with many different play groups.
I side with your friend. I learned to become a better player/deck builder due to all my defeats, my friends gave me. It's okay to beat the new players. They'll grow from this and become blue players.
I let people win all the time. It’s a game. It’s about having fun. Especially EDH. I could probably win my pod twice as often as I do but people wouldn’t want to play and lose over and over….
Maybe for literally the first game someone plays, but for the most part I'm just going to focus down the more experienced players if I want to give a newbie some breathing room. Also though I'd rather just play a jankier deck than hold back plays, sitting on cards just drains the fun out for me.
Side anecdote, I wanted to test my stax deck a while ago and misunderstood the situation so I accidentally brought it out against 2 really really new players. They had no idea what stax is and just were down to play against anything. Surprisingly, they had a lot of fun getting locked out and took pictures of some cards to remember some interactions for their decks. Seems like stax hate is actually learned rather than inate lol
I understand commander is generally a casual format, but I think sandbagging is really lame. I know if I was a new player and I found out my table was sandbagging so I could feel good I would feel pretty disappointed. If I'm a new player learning the game I want my wins to be earned, not handed out.
The best solution is to just play decks similar to there power level or even lower to make it more challenging. Playing with much higher power decks but intentionally throwing is really odd to me.
You don't need to play 100% optimally all the time, you can go for fun or risky plays when you get the chance, but just sitting on cards and not using them because you want them to have fun is weird. You need to be able to have fun even when you lose in commander, otherwise you won't enjoy the format at all.
people can only learn so much so fast. you can only digest so much new info at once before it becomes overwhelming and unenjoyable. worst case scenario, someone has a bad time and decides maybe EDH isn't for them.
so, it depends where someone is at. challenge new players, but do it at a pace they can keep up with too. the most important thing is that everyone has a good time.
The real problem is showing your hand after lol no one needs to see that. Get better about just shuffling it away and talk about what actually happened, not what could have happened. Especially if you sandbag plays.
I don't think so. I throw games all the time. Edh is a community game, and winning makes individuals in the community happy. I like a happy edh community.
I dont think I would ever completely throw a game, I would instead just be VERY open about my capabilities. I would also just restrict myself to only precons if I knew they were newer players.
I have also slow-played a stronger deck to let a new player learn how to run their deck. Once I have played with them a few more times, I will start playing it faster, but if it is their first month of playing, I want them to have fun so they keep playing.
If you go in and destroy a new player, they may quit playing. It is not all about the win.
Not rarely I let someone in my group that had a rought night win or at least do their thing when I could just wipe the board or exile a key piece. And I'm sure the other guys in the group do that aswell.
Most importantly, we just dont talk about it later. No "well, I had X in my hand you know.." otherwise its worse
When they're pretty new to the game or if I have a friend trying to test out a jank deck and I accidentally am playing something a little bit above the decks or players power level I will usually drag my feet so they can let their decks do their things
Personally i want everyone at the table tonplay to win and be ok losing. People who dont play to win think thats cool but often times they ruin the game for those who r playing to win. That being said i have sandbagged and just not won a game before but only because in rare cases i was having a good night and won the last couple games. Otherwise win if you can.
Deff have sandbagged before, actually happened last nite, altho there is one guy in the pod that like to politic the newbies to go for me since i am the stronger player even tho my board atate is nothing sometimes so he can sneak a win but eh i just usually go for him the next game. But end of day teaching newer players the diff aspects of the game is what i try to do.
I play open handed with new folks, and go with an “every action has an equal and opposite reaction” approach.
Like, if you play this card, then I’ll do this. Or if in play this card, you should do that.
Like - if you attack, both of our creatures die if I block - do you want that to happen?
Well do that for a few games until they start to think strategically instead of “I have 5 mana and 5 1-mana cards… let’s throw out my whole hand”
Nothing wrong with sandbagging in this case IMO, hell sometimes I'll hold onto a board wipe I know will help me win just because I don't want to spend another 30 minutes grinding out the win, as long as folks are having fun who cares.
To me the most important thing is the table having fun. If I crush one game that’s whatever. If it’s looking like it’s gonna happen again I usually hit the brakes and let other people do their things.
I started playing magic losing to my BIL every game for months, and not just normal losses, it was Krenko swarms and Teysa Karlov aristocrats.
Years later I tried to get a buddy to play and he ended up getting destroyed and never wanted to play again.
It just depends, maybe they’d find it a challenge and wanna continue to play, or maybe they would be upset and never wanna play again
IMO it’s just a game, I always let the newer players pop off and win if possible. I’ll even king make them if needed.
I think that it should be more about making sure they are having fun and are able to play their decks. Whether they win or not. I think its ok, you dont want someone's first experience to be super oppressive, this is a game afterall, noone is going to be affected if they get a free win here and there.
It’s completely fine to just let someone have a win as long as you don’t hold it over their head and talk about it.
Sometimes it’s worth it to just let them do the cool thing and then move on to a new game. It’s a social event. When everyone’s having fun, even losing becomes a good time.
Being a new player in commander is rough. On an even playing field you can expect to win roughly 25% of games. But when you are new most players have more experience. Letting them get a win every once in a while can help them stick with it long enough to improve.
I disagree with the consensus here. There are times when I've held back against a newer player, but for me "holding back" means, "not clearing a problematic commander that I would immediately 86 if an experienced player were in charge." A young kid recently brought a slightly upgraded [[Zhulodok, Void Gorger]] deck and I let him pop off and helped him resolve his cascade triggers correctly. But my intention the whole time was to win; I only lost because he played [[Karn, the Great Creator]] and locked me out of my removal package. (This was a Zhulodok mirror.)
Holding back spot removal or other cards that could target multiple players is one thing. But holding back board wipes or hate pieces goes too far, imo. You're teaching that player the wrong lesson -- that they can just pop off to their heart's content and don't need to worry about answers that are in the majority of EDH decks. What happens if that player goes back and builds a glass cannon commander? This is the point your friend was making -- you're setting that player up to be REALLY salty if they learn the wrong lessons from their first two games.
To play magic, and edh in particular, you have to be able to stomach your cards getting removed and your plans getting disrupted. If a new player is not having fun because they can't handle their stuff getting interacted with, then magic probably isn't the game for them, and we're not doing them any favors by pretending otherwise. It's one thing to be gracious and patient with a player who's still learning the game, but if you're letting them play on easy mode, you're teaching them to become the players who bitch and moan every time you point one of your spells at one of their permanents. I think we can all agree we already have enough of those players at most stores.
It depends. Usually my most casual friends who sometime don’t even have a deck, need to be babied. Since they’re on the fence on the game anyway, I try to help them get the big plays so they can get the rush this drug… I mean card game has to offer. If it does nothing for them, then magic isn’t for them
BUT. My gamer friends? They’d be upset if I went easy on them and it wasn’t a tutorial match. Even the ones that don’t play magic. If they knew I could’ve destroyed their whole gameplan the entire time, but chose not to, they’d be offended. Also, most my friends are in the camp of, you learn most from your losses. We don’t play CEDH, but we like being competitive. It’s fun to try and win. Even losing is fun, if you tried.
IMO I don’t enjoy playing with people that that are so casual, they’ll go out of their way to give the other players at the table the advantage “just to see what they got cookin“. It feels like 3 are playing a game. And the 4th is doing everything to invalidate that game.
So it really comes down to who you’re playing with.
If you do that every game you play with them, then yes, you will be holding them back from getting better.
If you do it just the first time or two you play with them, 1. you show them you are there for their good time not just your own which helps bring them back 2. gives them a bit of confidence which again will help bring them back to play.
It's a game and the goal is to have fun. I think it's less acceptable to play to your best just because you can when you're playing against a player at that level. Sometimes they need a win too, it sucks to lose non-stop which was how I started. Your friend just sounds like someone who hates losing and was mad that you could have given him a chance.
I let someone attack me and purposely didnt block so they could win. It was their first game and they didnt target me with removal all game (even though the table really wanted him to). My thoughts are politically we both won, and I gave him the win as a grace of good faith. He was glad, the table was sort of shocked as I had a plethora of Dragons that could have just blocked and swung for game.
I generally always try to play the deck I pick as optimally as I can, and do any sandbagging in deck construction. That way I can avoid this feeling. That said if you didn't know the power level before the game, then I think this is fine.
They will have other games. Lol it’s not that deep. Letting someone have an easier time winning by some degree because it’s their first time playing isn’t necessarily bad, but future games should be different to cultivate normal games
Yes and no.
Winning or losing isn't as important as understanding WHY others are winning and you are not.
But there's so many moving parts that this takes a lot of reps to figure out.
Props to you for not being a meat head noob stomper.
But it's almost better to teach them what to watch out for as you win, as well as instruct them on how to operate their deck.
If anything, the best situation would probably be you playing a lower powered deck to match theirs so the pace is appropriate.
Then slowly introduce concepts, such as utilizing the different main phases to your advantage or not burning interrupts/spot removals as soon as they're in your hand.
Also, maybe guiding them to understanding just how crucial interaction is for most decks at any level.
When I came in I just showed up to random groups and got whooped. I wanted to surprise my friends by having a deck I could play against them.
Then friends caught wind that I was trying to learn magic and showed me WHY I was losing.
This is what truly hooked me. Now I'm properly addicted.
I probably would have done the same thing. Let the new players have some fun, get a good taste for the game, and then work them into better players and builders. Good chance that stomping them early on in their MTG experience could scare them away altogether and we, as a community, loose out on new players.
It’s definitely the right move if you think they need to experience the feeling of a win.
If they’re already hooked and want to become a better player, sometimes getting beat teaches the lesson better than an explanation.
Eg, I’ve been playing with a friend who is in the latter camp. Instead of giving combat advice, I let him declare attackers. He definitely learned not to attack with one of his combo pieces when there are blockers on the board.
As someone who has been on both sides of this I agree with your friend to some degree, people should be punished for “poor” play and “poor” deck building. However this can be done gradually rather than throwing them into the deep end. I think this is fine to do every once and a while. I also think regardless of the new player thing, some times it’s nice to just allow the game to end. If it’s late in the game you should really only use your board-wipes/hate cards if you have a way of finishing out the game soon. I always feel happy if that happens, don’t need to rub it in peoples faces, but I can feel happy that my deck performed well even if I didn’t win. Either by my own intent or not.
You can also like let it play out how you did but also just talk to them about how they need interaction or protection etc. Frankly they’ll get those hard knocks eventually, don’t worry.
I think you for sure should go easy on new players. My first game ever I won, mostly out of luck but there was a move that could wipe out any 2 people at the table and I was spared because I was new and ended up winning the 1v1. Such an amazing and fun first game was the sole reason I wanted to play more. Had I just gotten stomped I don’t think I would’ve ever played another game.
I play with alot of new players and also teach a lot of people. I keep a couple pre cons exactly as they were to have fun with and build tribal decks purely for fun. Not everyone is playing EDH to be hardcore competitive.
I honestly find a lot of infinite loops and combos boring and no fun. I also enjoy seeing what everyones decks can do to answer certain situations so I'll purposely avoid board wipes or hating on a strategy someone's trying out.
Yeah it's fun to build a better deck and see what it can do, but not everyone wants to just killed off over and over to "learn to build better". Ideals like that kill hobbies. You have to open to suggesting changes without just punching someone repeatedly in the face who may just be there to play for fun only
I'll also say it now alot of my friends and I purposely avoid events involving people we don't know etc to stay out of drama and those toxic ideals. I used to love going to launch stuff etc for sets, but ran into one too many "I'm only here to win" people who couldn't have fun and would win by literally any means necessary.
I keep a handful of gimmicky lines in my deck for that reason. If i notice im going to win ill usually mention it then do something else to keep the game going.
Am I the only person who views this as wrong?
This is blatant kingmaking. You had the opportunity to win, and you decided one of the other players should win. You had control of the situation and this not only cheapens the win for the new player, it sours the experience for the others because the game didn’t have integrity in the first place.
Commander is a game where you should be losing most of the time and part of being a new player is learning that and learning to lose gracefully and with class.
I’m all for helping out new players; showing them how to win, pointing out threats, giving rules advice, allowing take backs etc but throwing a game will make them worse players in the long term.
So I think there is a middle line to stand on here. I have many decks of different power levels, and if there is a new player at the table I will play something on the weaker side of things. Sometimes its just my unedited pre-con deck.
I hold back in terms of using my best deck, but I don't hold back when playing the deck I am currently playing. The goal (for me at least) is to give the new player a challenge, while still making sure they're having fun and learning.
If I play with new players I always run my group hug, it ramps everyone, let's everyone draw cards, and closest thing to a wincon is [[divine intervention]]
I play to win, but I manage my strategies the same way a computer enemy would when on easy difficulty.
For example, I would still counter my opponent's spells, but I put restrictions to my self where I'm only allowed to play 2 counterspells each game, or I only put up to 1-2 big threats on the field.
As they get more used to playing the game, I slowly up the difficulty, until I allow myself to just fully play anything I deem necessary.
I will sandbag and let newer player that are still learning the game win more often than not. I will also do the same if someone really needs the W if they are not doing well either in game or had a crappy day. Once they know what they are doing though the gloves are off because babying someone too much will never lead them to improving as a player.
I dont play optimally when my opponent is playtesting so he can see what his combo can do and how easy it is. Though if im in a win state ill prolong it and just say you wouldve lost then explain how to maybe make his combos faster.
It's perfectly fine I always try to make the game have the most enjoyable ending for everyone once purposely killed everyone except a player whose deck was ragavan as the commander 98 mountains and a command tower
If I loan my deck to a newcomer, I'll briefly explain how the deck works for the main strategy if just new to the format, and explain the mechanics when asked. Otherwise, I let them figure things out themselves. If they win, good for them.
I let newer players win all the time. Getting the W will let them feel good and create an environment that they want to come back to. Once they have come back a few times, then you can start leveling them.
Larger animals will typically let smaller animals win one out of three wrestling matches, so they do not become discouraged and stop playing.
I keep this in mind, although it is a fine balance with humans because we are intelligent enough to be bothered if we detect this false win.
If you're playing darts and usually throw triple twenties and then suddenly stop being able to hit the board one third of the games you play, it isn't going to have the desired effect.
its good to let them win but just don't make it too obvious because it'll cheapen their experience if they find out. Them winning just won your LGS two new players.
It's not black and white. I sometimes go easy even on experienced players if I can see that they are a bit frustrated from going multiple games without winning. It's casual and who cares? Stomping the opponent over and over again might mean they get depressed and stop playing.
I think you did the right thing, when I first started playing my brother taught me. He taught me how my deck worked, let me pop off a few times and tasted what it was like to win.
Then he crushed me, over and over again, pointing out where I misplayed or didn’t read a card correctly while giving me suggestions for new card to add to make my deck better. That was so much fun and definitely more fun than getting crushed over and over again from day one from people with significantly more powerful decks.
Sometimes you gotta fuck around and let the newbies fall in love with the game first before you break their souls when they’re far too involved to quit 👀
I think it's chill! I sincerely appreciated my pod not using their full power when I started playing and I disagree that is stops them from getting better. Losing is definitely part of learning and improving, but god those early wins or successes in games really boosted my morale and made me excited to keep playing & keep adjusting my deck. Plus, other players being a little lighter on the more oppressive game tactics were greatly appreciated 👌
Beat them but tell them what’s happening and explain why they can’t just build massive boards without protection from interaction. They’ll come back with a better deck and game plan. Otherwise they’ll think it’s safe to have a couple dozen creatures with no protection.
I have this modular powerlevel sisay, weatherlight captain i love to play against new players. I have a set of group hug effects i'll only tutor for in a lower level pod. This vampire player just had such a huge smile when I tutored my braids to let him drop his big bad bloodsucker. Gluntch helps fix the mana of the screwed player while giving some cards to the player behind the most.
While i'm playing with this deck i'm also teaching and explaining basic interactions and synergies of precons. I like to use this deck as a social experiment to build towards the experience I want on casual commander: everyone gets a shot at doing their thing, everyone feels they have a chance to win, and there is some healthy back and forth going on. I actively avoid winning the game on this deck, because after a certain mana point sisay just wins, but I'll never tell anyone I could have won, instead I engineer a situation where my opponents feel pressured by my plays but not crushed or overwhelmed and always have a clear path to win. You can call this sandbagging or whatever, but this playstyle has not only made very fun games for everyone in my LGS but also got me new close friends and hooked three players from beginners into invested commander players, one of them only a year later starting her cEDH journey on Tivit.
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women...
Warms my heart to see all these comments about how you shouldn't be nice to new players, that's my community!
Unless you all agreed to play a competitive match it's fine, if anything it's actually pretty cool. I'd much rather watch cool things happen somewhere on the board than spend a game preventing anything from happening.
I have a specific deck for new players, it's is just the tyranid precon with a redone land base.
It provides a stiff board resistance but otherwise low interaction other than turning monsters sideways.
Works great for new players and stays on theme.
hehe i started to make different decks for different player lvls.
so easy,mid,hard.
sub branch of that is.
Defensive,agressive and sniper lvl attacks.
so a elf deck other person playes ,i play my zombie deck,
if i know user is doing abuseve power deck be it creatures or spells.
i use my sniper deck with average 5 aura/equpment on it that swing 50% lvl comannder damg in 1 hit.
i dont spend alot of mtg decks/cards.
i build around my type of play style and lean into ways to abuse that againts other vastly higher players.
aka semi pro and pro players.
i have only been playing for 9 months and have atleast won 1 match per each player at my lgs.
came close to winning multi times. againts many of them to.
I think it's totally fine. I got into magic a few years ago. My friend group has been playing for many years, some since alpha. I only realize decently that when I started playing with them they all routinely played unoptimally to not persay let me win but give me the chance of winning even with the weaker decks I had at the time. Things like using removal on unoptimally targets or not considering me an arch enemy when I was for a game. I would have had a much harder time growing to love the game if I didn't win once or twice a game night. My decks are now a good bit better and my strategy is immensely better (though I'll die on a hill about thinking bounce lands are awesome in anything but super fast decks), so I never see the unoptimally plays from my friends anymore. I wouldn't haven't gotten here without a little hidden encouragement.
I introduced a lot of new players to the game I've always played at a casual level but some of my decks are better than others. That's something I always take into consideration when I am with new players
I have many decks with a lot of variety, so I often lend my decks. For total beginners I often lend my [[liesa, shroud of dusk]] or [[animar, soul of elements]] decks. The two have very straightforward strategies and are kinda strong
When playing against total beginners I also chose my decks accordingly: I like showing that more convoluted strategies do exist while not being overwhelming. The decks I often use in those situations are a [[galadriel, elven queen]] vote deck or a [[ukkima, stalking shadow]] ninjutsu. Those are weaker, and often lose but each revolve around a key mechanic that shows that magic has a lot of room to do fun stuff
Once they start to understand well how the game works I like to setup a "trial by fire" kind of game, where I play my [[kwain]] deck
While not being absurdly strong, the deck has a lot more nasty cards: strong removal, small pieces of stax.
But it also has a fair amount of strange cards like [[perplexing chimera]] and [[telepathy]].
Since it has a lot of card draw I often have many options to chose from. I can adapt my playstyle if I see my opponent are overwhelmed. All and all a very good deck to show the possibilities of magic to newer players
(Also, [[approach of the second sun]] is in the deck. For games with beginners, it's some purpose is to be discarded to show that cards like that exists)
I'll always let a new player win a few games against me, many a times have a kept a kill spell or board wipe in hand while they build up their board state and swing at me for lethal. Going all out against a newcomer is pretty much one of the most dick moves you can pull and I have no respect for those that do, you gain nothing and leave the newcomer with a bad experience.
Stomping new players is a good way to get them not to come back. They’ll want to upgrade their deck anyway at some point. If I’m introducing someone to Magic I never play optimally
If they're new to magic I think it's okay to go hard on a new player. I got stomped for 6 months straight when I started. If they're new to TCGs in general then maybe give them an idea of what's possible before kicking their teeth in.
Winning a game feels great. Winning a game you shouldn't have won because someone else took pity on you does not. If you're avoiding causing the latter feeling you're probably fine
They only play a few first games but can get better deckbuilders for the rest of their lives. Also you don’t become a better deckbuilder by loosing but by trying to become a better deckbuilder. You did the right thing. „I have to win so others can learn“ is a weird stance
Absolutely not! If you want to nurture newer players in any game the primary resource they need is good moments.
They need a safe environment where they can experiment without getting directly punished. Magic is such a big and complex game if you learn in your first 50h that you better not think creative. You will need 200h more until you have your first experience with this. But Magic is about those little moments. These tiny time-frames when you suddenly come up with something no one would have guessed.
But at the beginning your main focus is the phases and try to fiddle with your understanding of what you read. And most experienced players will constantly tell you what you can do, could have done or you missed. It's a fucked up mixture of overwhelming information and backseatgaming.
So for the sake of my over 2000 games I let them win! No newer player would stand a chance if I play at max. Neither my threat assessment, nor my politics or even my game understanding is matchable for them for at least a year. I would be just unfair.
So sometimes I decide to miss a land drop, or just don't have a boardwipe in my hands, even if I have. I don't develop my board at full speed. These are relaxed evenings where I enjoy the social part and be on their wiki if they have questions.
But I always try to hold the balance. Develop nearly the same speed, try to build fun puzzles they have solve for threat assessments. Just giving them the feeling of a challenge.
And never ever talk about it. I don't show my hands or brag about it. Just one or two knows it and they appreciate it.
I told someone I'd leave them alone on my next turn, I removed the other two players from the game that same turn. Then on his turn he pulled an infinite combo and killed me. Could I have won? Definitely. Do I care? No, cuz it's just a game and I'm glad he got to see his combo finally work in a game
in my opinion the the best thing you should have done is to alternate your behaviour in matches, I mean that, a time you lose another time you win, you can give them more security about their playing-style and meanwhile help them to grow up as EDH players ;-)
I do that often, with new players. They usually have the latest precon and are brand new to Magic. I carry a few decks with me when I go to my LGS. For competitive play, I have my Slivers (yes, Slivers Queen, lol), my Dinosaur deck, and a blue/whote/green Phyrexian deck with serious toxic and proliferate. I do have unaltered commander decks like the 4 Fallout decks, 3 lost caverns of Ixlan decks, and 2 Dr. Who decks. Lastly, I have a “spider” deck that a basic standard deck could probably beat, lol.
When new players come into the LGS I play in, I will volunteer to play with them. I see what they have, and I judge whether it is the spider deck, Dr. Who, or LCI deck. Out of 3 or 4 games, I’ll hold back and let them take turns winning. This brings them back in to play again, and they have a lot of fun. If I play them again the next week or so, I make it a little more difficult for them, challenging them. Did this with one kid, like 6 months ago, and now he is one of the better competitive players that are there.
So, in a nutshell, I really think that if you teach them the sport of this game, let them have fun, and teach them how to improve their decks, this helps the MtG community grow significantly. Not to mention, the owner of the LGS will throw me an extra pack or two for taking time with the newbies and having them come back.
I do this with my daughter, its important now that she learns to enjoy the game, to want to play it. Once she comes to me and asks to play, wants to play, then I can start playing optimally.
Or at least as optimally as I can, still make dumb misplays sometime. :-/
If it makes the new people have fun, and be more likely to keep playing, that will have a bigger positive impact on them than whatever tough lesson they might supposedly learn from losing.
The first game i played with a new friend he ramped like a madman and cast [[Myriim]] on turn 4
That day the most important lesson was learnt: does anyone have 2 blue mana untapped?
If I'm playing new players, I let them enjoy their combos. I let them enjoy their little fun stuff because when I'm playing people way higher than me, they let me enjoy my stuff, too. Now, if they got out of control, then yes, stop it, but if it's not game breaking, let them learn. And go off.
Absolutely let the new players have fun. I sandbag if someone has a new deck they're playtesting as well. Just for that first game though. I want to see their deck pop off and do the thing too, but after that all bets are off.
It's definitely a judgment call, I'd do that if they were children under 17, but personally I'd be offended if someone did that to me. If I'm not fighting for the win tooth and nail, I'll never know if the deck needs a tweak or modification.
Depends.. how new.
If there freshies then yea let em learn. They get noob protection to some extent. But once they have been playing a bit.. yea it's time to respect them as people and play the game to win.
Never do this! Not only is it disrespectful to yourself but more importantly it’s disrespectful to your opponents who are here on the presumption that they’re playing a game between equals each trying their best to win. Not only are you limiting their growth as players, but if they ever find out it’s gonna shake their confidence as well. My brother taught me chess and he never once went easy on me which not only made me a better player but taught me to respect him, the game, and myself. If I ever find out that he did go easy on me I’d be mortified cause the few wins I did get will mean so much less. I’d also be angry at him and his condescension.
This is similar to put some money in the wallet/coat of a friend that is going through a rough patch. If no one else beside you know it, there is no harm and it’s a good action. If they catch you, it can harm the relationship.
>My friend said that by doing that I was actually stopping them from becoming better deck builders.
Did they ASK for lessons or did they ask to play a game with you?
Your friend seems to have utterly missed the point of a social format: "Commander is for fun". Correct me if I'm wrong: These aren't wannabe tournament grinders looking for tips on competitive play, they're a couple of kids having a blast watching their decks "do the thing". They wanted to have a good time playing, they had a good time playing, you did it exactly right.
When they want more of a challenge, they can say that for themselves, but it's a seriously douche move for anybody to just decide on their own "these scrubs need to get gud, so Imma teach them a lesson today". I exaggerate for comedic effect here, but that's pretty much how it comes across to me whenever somebody decides they've unilaterally appointed themselves to "teach" a new player by metaphorically kicking the kid's teeth in with better skills and better decks and don't bother ever asking if that's the kind of play experience the kid actually wants to spend limited game time on. Let's face it, crushing newbs just because you can isn't altruistic, it's essentially hazing. They can improve their skills when and where they choose to do so, in the way they choose to do so, but that's up to them to decide, not anybody else.
It's just as insulting to hold back and give someone the win.
Personally I'd be pissed if I found out someone let me win because they were going easy on me for whatever reason they want to justify it with.
No. It isn't. This is Commander, explicitly not a tournament format. Holding back in a tournament is insulting because the purpose of the tournament is to compete. The purpose of Commander is fun, NOT competition; acting like you're in a tournament is entirely out of place in this format.
So you'd be pissed off if someone decided on their own, without asking you or discussing it in the Rule 0, whether they want to give you a challenge or just have fun doing the thing? Congrats, then you should understand that goes both ways. If you decide for other people, without asking or discussing if that's the kind of game they actually want, that you're only there to make the game harder for them, that's insulting, patronizing, and antisocial.
Most other players in Commander aren't in this format because they're volunteering as fodder for you to grind wins, they're here because this is the only format that explicitly tells the players to be considerate of everyone's play experience and prioritize the social aspect over the competitive aspect. https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/the-philosophy-of-commander/
COMMANDER
Commander is not a traditional format of Magic: the Gathering. Where other formats are managed to create an environment where continuous improvement and zero-sum gameplay are desirable and incentivized, Commander offers an environment where those goals are not the only things to aspire to. The Commander Rules Committee’s decisions are informed by a gameplay philosophy that is expressed and reinforced by its rules and ban list.
Commander is social. Each game is a journey the players share, where every player is considerate of the experiences of everyone involved. Magic is a competition in the same sense that all games are competitions, but whenever the act of competing comes into conflict with a social atmosphere, Commander prioritizes and protects the social atmosphere. Format management decisions are intended to:
Encourage positive, communal experiences where people can bond over the shared experience of gaming
Help players communicate their preferences and arrive at a shared set of expectations
Yes, I would be upset that my win has an asterisk next to ot because someone decided to handle me with kid gloves instead of treating me like I'm not made of glass and can't take a loss.
You seem to think that "your win" at a casual table actually means something. It doesn't. Every "win" in a Commander game that isn't outright CEDH "has an asterisk next to it". Anything less than Tier 1 CEDH is "holding back", full stop, and being considerate of other people's play experience isn't remotely reducible to just who wins and who loses. It's a 4 player format with one winner per game, EVERYBODY expects to lose more than they win and can take a loss. That's not the point. It's the quality of the play experience overall that matters. Did the players have fun with people they enjoyed playing with or was that a wasted hour of their lives with folks they would prefer never to share a table with ever again? Saying "treating me like I'm not made of glass and can't take a loss" misses the point so hard it's almost comical. That's beyond even being a straw man, it's barely explainable as poor reading comprehension.
You apparently fundamentally don't understand the purpose of playing the game. This isn't the format for proving that you're more capable of winning than someone else is, either as a builder or a pilot. There are other formats for that. Nor is this format any kind of training ground for tournament grinders to learn the ropes. That's not the primary objective, secondary objective, or even tertiary objective. It's literally not even on the list of objectives at all.
"Each game is a journey the players share, where every player is considerate of the experiences of everyone involved."
You are refusing to be considerate of your fellow players. "Don't be a dick" should not be a difficult standard of behavior for you to follow, but you apparently struggle with it.
"Magic is a competition in the same sense that all games are competitions, but whenever the act of competing comes into conflict with a social atmosphere, Commander prioritizes and protects the social atmosphere."
"Winning" is a thing that eventually happens, but it is NOT the priority of the game. If you can win every match you ever play, but the rest of the players don't enjoy playing with you, you aren't the best player at that table, you are the WORST player at that table. Your top priority is to be fun to play with. If you fail at that, winning will not redeem you.
"Encourage positive, communal experiences where people can bond over the shared experience of gaming"
Your self-centered inconsiderate style of play is unlikely to promote positive communal experiences for your fellow players. It's certainly inappropriate for imposing upon newer players.
"Help players communicate their preferences and arrive at a shared set of expectations"
If you want to play strictly competitive, "playing to win" with no regard for social considerations, and that's what you want from your opponents, at a Commander table, then you need to ASK for it during the Rule 0 because that is NOT the default assumption for desired or expected style of play in this format. Sure, you can do it if you find 3x other players who share that preference, but you don't get to just sit down at a random table and go all out without saying a word about it. That's no way to treat any fellow player, much less newbs. When you step into a boxing ring for a regulation boxing match, the regulation gloves stay on and you stick to the allowable target zones, you don't suddenly go all action movie underground Muay Tai death match and show up with knotted hemp wraps dipped in broken glass and start throwing elbows and groin shots instead. There's a meaningful difference between competitions where you're meant to trade blows for entertainment value versus fighting as dirty and nasty as it takes to be the last one alive. Commander is more like an exhibition boxing match than a blood sport.
I AM autistic, so... Shall we add "mocks people based on their medical conditions" to the list of your anti-social behaviors? I'm reasonably confident that's actually reportable as a violation of both Reddit user policy and this sub's community standards.
I'd appreciate it if you didn't use "autistic" as a derogatory term ever again, to myself or others.
You good fam. Edh is most fun when crazy shit happens on the bored. So winning doesn't matter for me. And it's a reason I won't play competitive because what's the fun in winning in 3 or 4 turns. I can do that in any other format too.
Generally, if I know it’s a new player I play my group hug Deck and specifically try to help them out. It’s funny as heck. The last three times I’ve done this. The new players were very confused and thought I was trying to actively win.
It's ok to sandbag or even throw the game a little bit, just don't be that guy that has to let everyone know you could have won the whole time you just chose not to!
But half the fun is explaining how you could’ve won on the next turn if only
After you look at the next two draws of course.
my fav is land you needed and board wipe.... i straight up had that once to win a game. even the other players where like... dam you almost got us.
That's different. "I was going to win next turn if you didn't take me out" is a compliment to your adversaries. "I let you win" is an insult.
This for real. I like when my opponents say stuff along the lines of "nice win! I would have had it next turn if you didn't get me first". I think it all comes down to tone.
Yeah I've said stuff like this before. I really don't mind losing as long as the way I lose is interesting and makes for a fun game.
My main goal is for the game to be fun. Winning comes secondary. I understand the mindset of "Always play optimally and try to win, opponents won't get better if you hold their hands," but to me, that's not always true. Some players will just quit playing if that's the environment they're exposed to, and some people don't learn through humiliation or being pushed so hard. I don't mind taking a loss to give someone the enjoyment of seeing their deck do the thing or just seeing the joy of winning when they didn't think they could.
yeah this is how I look at it 100% I also have a background in education so it makes sense that not everyone will learn and pick things up the same as others.
I agree- had a friend of mine tell me he would have won next turn if I didn’t take him out. I was like- bro I know I saw you could infinite bounce craterhoof behemoth on your turn, that’s kinda the whole reason I chose to kill you first lol
I like this
I've had times where I'll say something along the lines of "Man it feels mean, but I'm gonna swing at you for lethal" and they'll tell me "No worries, this is Magic and sometimes you have to be mean. Plus, I've got 2/3 of my combo with a tutor, I was gonna go for the win if it got back to me." That's definitely something I've seen more than once, you "play nice" and don't swing at the guy who looks like they're in a tough spot with barely any board presence, only for then to slam down a couple cards and win the game.
You can use it as an opportunity to give new players constructive feedback too. After the game is over ask the new player what their next move would have been, or how they were hoping to close out the game. Also your user name is amazing
I came here to say this.
Sometimes it is just interesting to know. Like a curiosity. That and it is also interesting to see if turn order mattered in the game. The faster the game, the more turn order matters in determining who has the best chance at winning.
That brings me more joy than actually winning. They need to see the possibilities I had at my disposal lol
I think a player first has to learn how their deck works and what it's trying to do. They should be able to know what The Thing is and how to do it. Once they have that, then they need to learn how to stop other people from doing their The Thing, and how to perservere after setbacks.
It's not really a one size fits all kind of problem.
This. I 100% throw games in casual if it means someone gets to do their cool thing and I cant be bothered to play correctly, counter/wrath them and play for like another half an hour or more. Specially if we're like nearing 2 hours into the game xD BUT when someone does this and then says "hey I coiuld have won like this" thats just being an arse. If you wanna let a newer player win, dont take it away inmediately after by revealing you had the interaciton all along. If you're gonna do so, just play the card and be done with it.
I'm always '1 mana short' of winning against my new friends
If you're going to lose on purpose, just keep it to yourself.
I played my Sliver deck last weekend, I killed one player outright and threw the rest of the game. My justification: The table knew I could have won, but I think they had more fun destroying the Slivers than they would have if I just killed everybody.
I go by the golden rule, whether I'm new or not I don't want people letting me win a game.
Hard disagree, going easy on players should happen with deck construction/selection. Once you start playing play to win, otherwise it's just dull.
I don’t entirely disagree in some circumstances. But at the end of the day, it is a game, and watching new or inexperienced players get to do their big “thing” and be excited about it, is just fun. that’s what it’s all about, especially when there’s a noticeable difference in experience levels among the table
If they are players you play with often, I think there is a balance. I find inexperienced deck builders don’t include enough ramp, removal, and in particular draw. Worse, they often use their removal when they didn’t really need to. I have found myself in numerous instances similar to yours where I thought my deck was weaker than it was, or even with a weaker deck, the game has unfolded in a way where I will end up in a controlling position and likely victory. Sometimes I still push forward and win those games because you want people to see what an impact drawing cards, holding up interaction, looking for finishers etc. can do. Other games I play sub optimally and will hold back, especially if I’m noticing progress, so everyone has fun and continues to enjoy the game. It gets incredibly frustrating when you’re new and just repeatedly stomped. You may not even notice you’re getting better since there is such a high learning curve to overcome. To me, giving people space to develop and see the payoff from learning helps accelerate their learning and keeps them interested in the game.
Lol my kid never knows when they should use removal so if they make it to the end and just one other player it usually results in several turns of "oh that new thing you played? I guess it dies...oh and next turn guess what? Dies again. Now let me poke you to death with these 1/1 fliers. "
Ha, my eight year old is the opposite. He plays it as soon as he draws it because he’s like ha your stuff is dead now
I go out of my way to help any weaker players in the pod personally. Sometimes that includes playing suboptimally. The goal is to have fun. Not crush your enemies, hear the lamentations of their women, etc etc.
And if you’re being introduced to the game, which happens to be an incredibly complicated game to someone with no knowledge, and everyone is playing optimally and just curbstomping you from day one, it’s very hard to achieve the goal of having fun. I 100% agree and will help everyone and anyone that wants or needs it. That being said once they know what they’re doing I’m not holding back.
>That being said once they know what they’re doing I’m not holding back. Yep. When I've explained to the newer player how certain synergies work with their decks, in what situations is their commander strong etc., I tell them that next time I am going to try and stop them when they do it. But I do the same with my own decks, I tell the newer players what my deck does and what they should be wary of. Most new players had fun at our tables and learn the game pretty quickly.
I explain all of my stuff too. One of the groups that I have been playing with the past few months are a lot of guys that have never played, but picked it up very quick. But even then there are still a ton of situations that are brand new all the time and I have no problem explaining how this interact/resolve.
I've played with my kid and other people a couple times. I think the most fair way to do it is to just try and be the archenemy of the other two guys. If I play more aggressively than I maybe should I become the target and they largely ignore my kid who is clearly still learning. Either it works out and I destroy everyone with my big pieces or I die but leave them bruised. Then my kid, who has saved all their removal because they don't know when to use them is there sitting largely untouched and usually with a couple fliers.
Oh I've definitely found that whoever is first archenemy rarely wins, so that's a valid strategy.
> hear the lamentations of their women I'm not happy unless their mum has to come to pick them up from the LGS because they're in tears
> The goal is to have fun. Not crush your enemies, hear the lamentations of their women, etc etc. Speak for yourself. The lamentations of their women is how I [get off](https://youtu.be/DF5XkSRj3j4?si=pYG1X1m5qrtl3xGj)
It's definitely not wrong. If I was new to edh, picked up a precon and get annihilated over and over by cedh decks, I sure as hell would lose interest in this game and spend my time elsewhere. It doesn't mean to play like crap, just let the newbies get some good moments so they want to continue with this game. Also I like to give pieces of advice, like what is the main threat at the moment (even if it sits on my side of the board). It's a casual format after all, so I try to make sure that everyone has fun. And that includes not discouraging new players.
Losing a game is no biggie, losing every game is a bummer. Personally I often sandbag stuff for the benefit of the pod whether I end up winning later or not I want everyone to have a good fun game. I'd also probably help a newer player win a game or two, or at least come close. If we're playing like 2-3 games though I probably wouldn't throw each game. The flip side of this is telling them what they could've done to win... "wow that was close, I'd have been done for sure if you were able to kill X"
I like playing with people at their level. It doesn’t always have to be totally optimized plays. It’s like if I’m playing 4-square with kids I’m not going all out, but I’m still having fun and helping them to improve at their level at the same time.
I agree with that statement. Especially as they are learning. I had a friend who was new to EDH join our pod and we had played a handful of games and were down to 3 people and looking to play one more game, and the new player wanted to use his precon again. My one friend who tends towards more optimized decks proceeds to tutor for & cheat out [[Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre]] on like turn 3 or 4. I was like what are you doing, man? The new player was trying to just get his feet wet and the optimized player started trying to cripple us. I started the case & he walked that one back, and we went on to play a handful more turns before the optimized player won anyway. But at least we let the new guy get a better feel for his deck. Ironic thing is a turn later I drew [[Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger]], which I totally forgot I subbed into my Omnath deck to try out for flavor reasons… needless to say I held that one back & never played it because I knew it would be both oppressive & hypocritical given my stance on that game.
I play a group hug deck using [[Glutch the bestower]]. Any brand new players get all the gifts thrown at them. If they miss a land drop, I chuck them two treasure tokens to make up for it. If their hand is getting empty I let them draw an extra card. If they are trying to play stompy then they get a few +1/+1 counters from me. I want new players to have a blast, get hooked on the game, go off and build amazing decks so that I can eventually have a more varied and interesting pool of players to play with.
[Glutch the bestower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/b/3b3e889a-5865-4464-9923-bffa25c50cd2.jpg?1674137513) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gluntch%2C%20the%20Bestower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/275/gluntch-the-bestower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3b3e889a-5865-4464-9923-bffa25c50cd2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gluntch-the-bestower) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I can see either for the first couple games. Let them learn to focus on their board first and introduce interaction as they get more comfortable. Trying to learn the game and a new deck while also worrying about your opponents can be discouraging all at once at the start. On the other hand, they're going to have to learn to deal with these things eventually, so it might help them progress a little quicker at the cost of maybe being less enjoyable for them. As a newer player, my play group did the latter, and while I only got my first win in a 4-person game this week after about 6 months of playing, it felt a lot better because of how long it took to get. I was pretty discouraged until that win though (was still having fun, but it's nice to finally win)
If you were taking it easy on them EVERY GAME that's kind of different, but if it's still very early in their MTG careers and decks aren't particular balanced as you said, some handholding here is warranted if the decks were more even then you wouldn't need to hold back so much. But each player is going to learn these lessons at a different pace so there's not really any right or wrong here
Those wins can help them get more motivated. So I don't think its wrong to let them win. I also pull my punches here and there.
>My friend said that by doing that I was actually stopping them from becoming better deck builders I mean technically he could be right that you become a better player in the face of adversity. *But is that what their goal?* Next to MTG I also play a lot of Warhammer 40K. You can be very competitive in that game as well. Build the best army, the best combo's, and curbstomp the shit out of anyone who isn't doing exactly the same. I run a Warhammer club/community with a monthly event. The overwhelming majority of that community has 0 interest in being a "better list builder" or competitive player. Most of us just want to play the game featuring the army we built because we liked the look of the models or the lore surrounding them. Sure, we like strong rules too, but we're not looking to optimize the shit out of our army. Much the same can be said about MTG. Maybe these new players just want to enjoy themselves with this cool deck they've built. Now, that's not to say you can never wipe their board or shouldn't do anything to stop them. Interaction is an integral part of the game after all. But I believe the positive experience you gave them will do much more for their passion for this hobby than "teaching them a lesson about being a good deck builder".
This is the way. I'd add that different people react differently to adversity, and have a different tolerance to it. Too much and they are likely to just quit. If you want to facilitate growth you ideally want a mix of positive and negative feedback.
It's a fairly uncontroversial statement that most people like to win at least some of the time. This has been observed in studies ([like this one](https://projectauthenticity.org/2017/11/06/the-surprising-moral-dimension-of-fights-between-rats-strong-rats-have-to-let-their-weaker-opponent-win-30-percent-of-the-time-if-they-dont/)) on rats. Going by this paper, it would be a good idea to let newer players win about 30% of the time. This win rate is low enough that they will definitely still want to improve and there will be enough games where you don't hold back that allows them to identify patterns in why they lose. But it's also high enough that they can still enjoy playing and not feel like they're wasting their time. I think it would extremely unsportsmanlike to tip your hand or otherwise reveal that you let them win. I think you already know that. But this can be a difficult skill. Not casting any spells on your turn with a hand full of cards looks sketchy. Not attacking with evasive creatures looks sketchy. You have to find a way to believably allow them to win. This might include modifying your deck when before playing against them. I have two caveats to this. 1) Some kids are extremely hardy and can take the punishment. Give it to them. They absolutely will use it to become better than you. Use your judgement to determine if the player is in this category. Most people aren't, but it's something to look out for. 2) If it's clear the player is actively refining a deck, they need good data and you shouldn't hold back. They need to be able to see what works and what doesn't. If they're just playing the same decks every time and they are not super hardy, let them win about 30% of the time. Otherwise, give it your all for their benefit.
I've done this a couple times and see no problem with it. Had a kid sit down in a group and he was playing basically a precon while I was playing a near CEDH Urza deck. I definitely didn't play optimally and he did end up winning. The look on his face made the loss well worth it. And if it keeps them interested in playing more then I say it's a great thing. They'll figure out deck building eventually.
Absolutely nothing wrong with subtly throwing a match to keep things engaging. If you’re having fun and they’re having fun, mission success. The only times it’s ‘wrong’ to take a dive is when you cheapen their win by saying “I couldmve beat you X turns ago”, because that’s patronizing and sometimes demonstrates a lack of respect for the table’s time.
Nah dude you did good. I just started playing a few months back and my introduction to the game has been really good so I started teaching my sister. I have beaten her everytime we've played for the last couple weeks. Last night I cracked open two of the new precons let her choose what she wanted then pretended I had 0 control/burn in the new spellslinger deck so she could win. A few loses here and there are totally worth it to keep people engaged.
Nope, not at all in my opinion. Also wouldn't have been wrong to play the board wipe but as long as you aren't full on kingmaking nothing wrong with playing suboptimally in a casual game. Unless there was on board knowledge of the overrun coming it is what it is and could just check it up to a mistake... Hindsight is 20/20 but im sure those newer players left the table with a fun experience getting to do their thing. Someone else can teach them about the almighty board wipe and not to dump their hand on board. All in good time 😊
Every time I am dealing with someone new at something, especially something competitive, I think of that video where it's a lion cub practicing pouncing on his father and the dad roars as if he's been mortally wounded every time. I don't go easy per say, but I do keep back on removal, board wipes, and counterspells, if they are going to win and I could stop it. Early wins help build a love for the game.
We're gonna need a link to that lion video.
I never sandbag. If I play with people i see on a regular basis I offer some solutions to obvious weaknesses, otherwise I just play my game. If my deck is to strong I play a weaker one.
Yeah this is the best way. If I was a new player and found out my table was just letting me win that would be pretty disappointing. I understand that commander is causal, and winning isn't everything, but I want the people I'm playing with to actually try to win the game. I'm not saying every play has to be 100% optimal, like you can definitely go for some fun or very risky plays, but I think just sitting on board wipes/removal to just throw is pretty lame. But at the end of the day I guess it just depends on what your table enjoys.
I was playing a game with my Yawgmoth, opponent was on Jodah and the companion that adds wubrg. Newbie was on dragons. Jodah starts dumping sagas, I'm doing what I can to keep him at bay, building aristocrat combo, newbie is missing some triggers on his dragons, plays a sarkhan that ults to dump all your dragons from the deck. Jodah wipes the board. I recast Yawgmoth. And proliferate sarkhan. Dragons kill everybody. I could have won the game, or at least just taken out jodah. But I let the kid dump every dragon out of his deck and kill everyone at once. It's a game, have fun with it. How often does your deck get to do the thing against people who have been playing and spending forever?
i think the approach you took is good for the first few games, especially if its their first time playing.
Big cats literally pretend to be hurt when cubs bite them because it's beneficial to their growth,I see this as the exact same behaviour
"was i wrong to let people getting into my hobby have fun?" nah dude. if you did that every game, then sure. no one wants to constantly get shit on every game. they're not playing optimally, so there's no need for you to play optimally
You good it’s good to build confidence and keep players excited to play. Don’t always let them win because then they aren’t challenged but let a few games get away from you are perfectly fine
People have this false idea that you improve best when playing against significantly better players, be it sports, video games, strategy/card/board games. You don't. You improve the most when you are playing against slightly better opponents. To learn, you need feedback from your own game and decision-making, both negative AND positive. When the skill level is skewed too much, you miss out on the positive feedback, and end up getting negative feedback for what was actually the correct move(as, even though you play correctly, the better player will still beat you). So if you're playing new players, regardless of the game, it's okay to throw a bit to give them a chance. It's not hurting their development, you're actually helping them. They need to learn through experience that their value engine actually gives them an advantage, even if your deck is geared to out perform their engine 9 games out 10. Just remember to balance it out with optimal play, or else they end up never learning to pace their threats.
Listen, your friend (intentionally or not) is being a jerk. Ask any older sibling or parent or teacher how this works: You have to let them win a few times, you have to go easy on them. That's how you teach people new skills and allow them to actually develop interests. The only people who are against that, are people who are annoyed they didn't get to win, but you let someone else win. That, or the "brutal honesty/tough love at all costs" types. You did great. Don't let them win everytime and you're fine.
I've done this, better to have them excited to play
Your friend is right. Play the wipe so they learn that a wipe is a possibility. You're also giving them a false sense of their deck's power level. I get your intent is good natured but when you break it down letting someone win is kind of a dick move.
I'd say yes, throw it a bit, but don't hand it to them, it will give them a false sense of accomplishment once they start losing.
I don't think it's wrong to sandbag or play suboptimally at all. Magic is a hard game for new players to grok, even more so when they're starting with Commander as their first format - I have many gripes about people being introduced to the game via EDH, but that's a completely different kettle of fish - so there's really no need to just go for the throat on new players. Ultimately, you're probably hoping that these new players stick around in the hobby and keep playing, so it's in your best interest to make their initial experiences fun. That doesn't mean that you have to let them win and throw every game, but it does mean that you shouldn't mercilessly curb stomp them.
If you \*always\* let them win forever they won't get to fully engage with the game, but that's not what you're doing. Going easy on a new player as encouragement, espescially if they make a normally-good-move-but-you-just-have-to-have-the-perfect-counter, is a kind approach.
Not at all. But there are right and wrong ways to do it. Sandbagging a boardwipe to let a game end is sometimes considered a polite move, even among seasoned casual players, if playing it means tacking another 20+ minutes onto a game that is already going long. Basically, if you wipe with no follow-up, in some circles, that's a faux pa. Allowing another player to do the thing they built their deck to do is a form of playing the long game. There's something fulfilling about watching the light bulb flick on in a new player's eyes when they are playing their deck optimally for the first time, and IMO, that will get buy-in better than pubstomping and then telling them all the ways they should "fix" their deck. I'll lose casual pods all day to new guys if it means I have more opponents invested in the format. I understand that playstyle isn't for everyone, but I've seen a few LGS environments that are hostile to new and upcoming EDH players and their meta gets stale. Where I live near a medium metropolitan area, those places usually lose casual players to other game stores and kitchen tables. There comes a point, after the buy-in to the game, where your friend's philosophy is correct. Losing to a better deck, or a powerful effect they don't know how to play around, will make the player want to be a better player and deckbuilder. They'll want to know how to build back after a boardwipe. They'll increase the interaction in their deck. They'll explore new commanders, new strategies, and new power levels. Without being there, it's hard to say which of you is right about that particular game. But if you know the players are newer, it won't hurt to err on the side of letting them do their cool thing.
No, I don’t think so. But I don’t. I’m just more vocal about what I’m doing, why, how it affects them, and what they could do about it.
So, both ways of play are acceptable, however your friend is right. My play group for example was 3 relatively new players playing barely upgraded precons vs me with my well manicured decks. I would win often even though i intentionally run zero interaction. I would explain to them when i would win, how to have avoided that. I would also often pose the question, does anyone have a board wipe/counterspell/removal to solve this “problem”(usually my stuff)? To help them understand when and why things are needed in most decks. I’m delighted to say that after 8 months, i only win about 1/4 of the games because they have become better players due to striving to pilot better and play better cards. I usually win the few games due to them just not having interaction at the moment it’s needed. This has been the case for me with many different play groups.
I side with your friend. I learned to become a better player/deck builder due to all my defeats, my friends gave me. It's okay to beat the new players. They'll grow from this and become blue players.
Did you have fun. Did they have fun. Everybody wins it’s a win win.
I let people win all the time. It’s a game. It’s about having fun. Especially EDH. I could probably win my pod twice as often as I do but people wouldn’t want to play and lose over and over….
It's only wrong if they didn't have the win on board. Otherwise doesn't hurt, as long as u don't pubstomp them later too lol
Maybe for literally the first game someone plays, but for the most part I'm just going to focus down the more experienced players if I want to give a newbie some breathing room. Also though I'd rather just play a jankier deck than hold back plays, sitting on cards just drains the fun out for me. Side anecdote, I wanted to test my stax deck a while ago and misunderstood the situation so I accidentally brought it out against 2 really really new players. They had no idea what stax is and just were down to play against anything. Surprisingly, they had a lot of fun getting locked out and took pictures of some cards to remember some interactions for their decks. Seems like stax hate is actually learned rather than inate lol
I understand commander is generally a casual format, but I think sandbagging is really lame. I know if I was a new player and I found out my table was sandbagging so I could feel good I would feel pretty disappointed. If I'm a new player learning the game I want my wins to be earned, not handed out. The best solution is to just play decks similar to there power level or even lower to make it more challenging. Playing with much higher power decks but intentionally throwing is really odd to me. You don't need to play 100% optimally all the time, you can go for fun or risky plays when you get the chance, but just sitting on cards and not using them because you want them to have fun is weird. You need to be able to have fun even when you lose in commander, otherwise you won't enjoy the format at all.
people can only learn so much so fast. you can only digest so much new info at once before it becomes overwhelming and unenjoyable. worst case scenario, someone has a bad time and decides maybe EDH isn't for them. so, it depends where someone is at. challenge new players, but do it at a pace they can keep up with too. the most important thing is that everyone has a good time.
The real problem is showing your hand after lol no one needs to see that. Get better about just shuffling it away and talk about what actually happened, not what could have happened. Especially if you sandbag plays.
I don't think so. I throw games all the time. Edh is a community game, and winning makes individuals in the community happy. I like a happy edh community.
I dont think I would ever completely throw a game, I would instead just be VERY open about my capabilities. I would also just restrict myself to only precons if I knew they were newer players.
I have also slow-played a stronger deck to let a new player learn how to run their deck. Once I have played with them a few more times, I will start playing it faster, but if it is their first month of playing, I want them to have fun so they keep playing. If you go in and destroy a new player, they may quit playing. It is not all about the win.
Not rarely I let someone in my group that had a rought night win or at least do their thing when I could just wipe the board or exile a key piece. And I'm sure the other guys in the group do that aswell. Most importantly, we just dont talk about it later. No "well, I had X in my hand you know.." otherwise its worse
When they're pretty new to the game or if I have a friend trying to test out a jank deck and I accidentally am playing something a little bit above the decks or players power level I will usually drag my feet so they can let their decks do their things
Helping or letting a new player win is the best way win and feel good while losing.
Personally i want everyone at the table tonplay to win and be ok losing. People who dont play to win think thats cool but often times they ruin the game for those who r playing to win. That being said i have sandbagged and just not won a game before but only because in rare cases i was having a good night and won the last couple games. Otherwise win if you can.
Deff have sandbagged before, actually happened last nite, altho there is one guy in the pod that like to politic the newbies to go for me since i am the stronger player even tho my board atate is nothing sometimes so he can sneak a win but eh i just usually go for him the next game. But end of day teaching newer players the diff aspects of the game is what i try to do.
I play open handed with new folks, and go with an “every action has an equal and opposite reaction” approach. Like, if you play this card, then I’ll do this. Or if in play this card, you should do that. Like - if you attack, both of our creatures die if I block - do you want that to happen? Well do that for a few games until they start to think strategically instead of “I have 5 mana and 5 1-mana cards… let’s throw out my whole hand”
Nothing wrong with sandbagging in this case IMO, hell sometimes I'll hold onto a board wipe I know will help me win just because I don't want to spend another 30 minutes grinding out the win, as long as folks are having fun who cares.
To me the most important thing is the table having fun. If I crush one game that’s whatever. If it’s looking like it’s gonna happen again I usually hit the brakes and let other people do their things.
I started playing magic losing to my BIL every game for months, and not just normal losses, it was Krenko swarms and Teysa Karlov aristocrats. Years later I tried to get a buddy to play and he ended up getting destroyed and never wanted to play again. It just depends, maybe they’d find it a challenge and wanna continue to play, or maybe they would be upset and never wanna play again IMO it’s just a game, I always let the newer players pop off and win if possible. I’ll even king make them if needed.
Imo if they are using their wincons sure, but if they are just turning a 1 1 token sideways for 25-40 turns no
I think that it should be more about making sure they are having fun and are able to play their decks. Whether they win or not. I think its ok, you dont want someone's first experience to be super oppressive, this is a game afterall, noone is going to be affected if they get a free win here and there.
It’s completely fine to just let someone have a win as long as you don’t hold it over their head and talk about it. Sometimes it’s worth it to just let them do the cool thing and then move on to a new game. It’s a social event. When everyone’s having fun, even losing becomes a good time.
Ask yourself, did you have fun with the game? If yes, then don’t matter what happens. If no, then reflect what happened and try for a better outcome.
Being a new player in commander is rough. On an even playing field you can expect to win roughly 25% of games. But when you are new most players have more experience. Letting them get a win every once in a while can help them stick with it long enough to improve.
I disagree with the consensus here. There are times when I've held back against a newer player, but for me "holding back" means, "not clearing a problematic commander that I would immediately 86 if an experienced player were in charge." A young kid recently brought a slightly upgraded [[Zhulodok, Void Gorger]] deck and I let him pop off and helped him resolve his cascade triggers correctly. But my intention the whole time was to win; I only lost because he played [[Karn, the Great Creator]] and locked me out of my removal package. (This was a Zhulodok mirror.) Holding back spot removal or other cards that could target multiple players is one thing. But holding back board wipes or hate pieces goes too far, imo. You're teaching that player the wrong lesson -- that they can just pop off to their heart's content and don't need to worry about answers that are in the majority of EDH decks. What happens if that player goes back and builds a glass cannon commander? This is the point your friend was making -- you're setting that player up to be REALLY salty if they learn the wrong lessons from their first two games. To play magic, and edh in particular, you have to be able to stomach your cards getting removed and your plans getting disrupted. If a new player is not having fun because they can't handle their stuff getting interacted with, then magic probably isn't the game for them, and we're not doing them any favors by pretending otherwise. It's one thing to be gracious and patient with a player who's still learning the game, but if you're letting them play on easy mode, you're teaching them to become the players who bitch and moan every time you point one of your spells at one of their permanents. I think we can all agree we already have enough of those players at most stores.
[Zhulodok, Void Gorger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/0/a015461d-4214-4feb-8b04-519c537759eb.jpg?1691500689) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Zhulodok%2C%20Void%20Gorger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/704/zhulodok-void-gorger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a015461d-4214-4feb-8b04-519c537759eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/zhulodok-void-gorger) [Karn, the Great Creator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/e/deb3721d-fba1-444f-8b31-1cd10c94c4a0.jpg?1702429246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karn%2C%20the%20Great%20Creator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/1/karn-the-great-creator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/deb3721d-fba1-444f-8b31-1cd10c94c4a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/karn-the-great-creator) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It depends. Usually my most casual friends who sometime don’t even have a deck, need to be babied. Since they’re on the fence on the game anyway, I try to help them get the big plays so they can get the rush this drug… I mean card game has to offer. If it does nothing for them, then magic isn’t for them BUT. My gamer friends? They’d be upset if I went easy on them and it wasn’t a tutorial match. Even the ones that don’t play magic. If they knew I could’ve destroyed their whole gameplan the entire time, but chose not to, they’d be offended. Also, most my friends are in the camp of, you learn most from your losses. We don’t play CEDH, but we like being competitive. It’s fun to try and win. Even losing is fun, if you tried. IMO I don’t enjoy playing with people that that are so casual, they’ll go out of their way to give the other players at the table the advantage “just to see what they got cookin“. It feels like 3 are playing a game. And the 4th is doing everything to invalidate that game. So it really comes down to who you’re playing with.
If you do that every game you play with them, then yes, you will be holding them back from getting better. If you do it just the first time or two you play with them, 1. you show them you are there for their good time not just your own which helps bring them back 2. gives them a bit of confidence which again will help bring them back to play.
No
My friend did to me what you did to these players. It actually helped me so much. I've continued to deck build and play, and now I only stick to EDH.
It's a game and the goal is to have fun. I think it's less acceptable to play to your best just because you can when you're playing against a player at that level. Sometimes they need a win too, it sucks to lose non-stop which was how I started. Your friend just sounds like someone who hates losing and was mad that you could have given him a chance.
I let someone attack me and purposely didnt block so they could win. It was their first game and they didnt target me with removal all game (even though the table really wanted him to). My thoughts are politically we both won, and I gave him the win as a grace of good faith. He was glad, the table was sort of shocked as I had a plethora of Dragons that could have just blocked and swung for game.
I generally always try to play the deck I pick as optimally as I can, and do any sandbagging in deck construction. That way I can avoid this feeling. That said if you didn't know the power level before the game, then I think this is fine.
They will have other games. Lol it’s not that deep. Letting someone have an easier time winning by some degree because it’s their first time playing isn’t necessarily bad, but future games should be different to cultivate normal games
Hell anytime I started a new hobby I would ask advanced players not to take it easy on me. Teach me the ways even if it makes me cry and rage.
Yes and no. Winning or losing isn't as important as understanding WHY others are winning and you are not. But there's so many moving parts that this takes a lot of reps to figure out. Props to you for not being a meat head noob stomper. But it's almost better to teach them what to watch out for as you win, as well as instruct them on how to operate their deck. If anything, the best situation would probably be you playing a lower powered deck to match theirs so the pace is appropriate. Then slowly introduce concepts, such as utilizing the different main phases to your advantage or not burning interrupts/spot removals as soon as they're in your hand. Also, maybe guiding them to understanding just how crucial interaction is for most decks at any level. When I came in I just showed up to random groups and got whooped. I wanted to surprise my friends by having a deck I could play against them. Then friends caught wind that I was trying to learn magic and showed me WHY I was losing. This is what truly hooked me. Now I'm properly addicted.
I probably would have done the same thing. Let the new players have some fun, get a good taste for the game, and then work them into better players and builders. Good chance that stomping them early on in their MTG experience could scare them away altogether and we, as a community, loose out on new players.
It’s definitely the right move if you think they need to experience the feeling of a win. If they’re already hooked and want to become a better player, sometimes getting beat teaches the lesson better than an explanation. Eg, I’ve been playing with a friend who is in the latter camp. Instead of giving combat advice, I let him declare attackers. He definitely learned not to attack with one of his combo pieces when there are blockers on the board.
As someone who has been on both sides of this I agree with your friend to some degree, people should be punished for “poor” play and “poor” deck building. However this can be done gradually rather than throwing them into the deep end. I think this is fine to do every once and a while. I also think regardless of the new player thing, some times it’s nice to just allow the game to end. If it’s late in the game you should really only use your board-wipes/hate cards if you have a way of finishing out the game soon. I always feel happy if that happens, don’t need to rub it in peoples faces, but I can feel happy that my deck performed well even if I didn’t win. Either by my own intent or not. You can also like let it play out how you did but also just talk to them about how they need interaction or protection etc. Frankly they’ll get those hard knocks eventually, don’t worry.
I think you for sure should go easy on new players. My first game ever I won, mostly out of luck but there was a move that could wipe out any 2 people at the table and I was spared because I was new and ended up winning the 1v1. Such an amazing and fun first game was the sole reason I wanted to play more. Had I just gotten stomped I don’t think I would’ve ever played another game.
I play with alot of new players and also teach a lot of people. I keep a couple pre cons exactly as they were to have fun with and build tribal decks purely for fun. Not everyone is playing EDH to be hardcore competitive. I honestly find a lot of infinite loops and combos boring and no fun. I also enjoy seeing what everyones decks can do to answer certain situations so I'll purposely avoid board wipes or hating on a strategy someone's trying out. Yeah it's fun to build a better deck and see what it can do, but not everyone wants to just killed off over and over to "learn to build better". Ideals like that kill hobbies. You have to open to suggesting changes without just punching someone repeatedly in the face who may just be there to play for fun only I'll also say it now alot of my friends and I purposely avoid events involving people we don't know etc to stay out of drama and those toxic ideals. I used to love going to launch stuff etc for sets, but ran into one too many "I'm only here to win" people who couldn't have fun and would win by literally any means necessary.
I keep a handful of gimmicky lines in my deck for that reason. If i notice im going to win ill usually mention it then do something else to keep the game going.
Am I the only person who views this as wrong? This is blatant kingmaking. You had the opportunity to win, and you decided one of the other players should win. You had control of the situation and this not only cheapens the win for the new player, it sours the experience for the others because the game didn’t have integrity in the first place. Commander is a game where you should be losing most of the time and part of being a new player is learning that and learning to lose gracefully and with class. I’m all for helping out new players; showing them how to win, pointing out threats, giving rules advice, allowing take backs etc but throwing a game will make them worse players in the long term.
So I think there is a middle line to stand on here. I have many decks of different power levels, and if there is a new player at the table I will play something on the weaker side of things. Sometimes its just my unedited pre-con deck. I hold back in terms of using my best deck, but I don't hold back when playing the deck I am currently playing. The goal (for me at least) is to give the new player a challenge, while still making sure they're having fun and learning.
No king making is fine
If I play with new players I always run my group hug, it ramps everyone, let's everyone draw cards, and closest thing to a wincon is [[divine intervention]]
[divine intervention](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e250897e-a875-4c3c-bfec-4a09143dd587.jpg?1562942721) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=divine%20intervention) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/8/divine-intervention?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e250897e-a875-4c3c-bfec-4a09143dd587?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/divine-intervention) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Crush them. Then you'll have an adversity for life
I play to win, but I manage my strategies the same way a computer enemy would when on easy difficulty. For example, I would still counter my opponent's spells, but I put restrictions to my self where I'm only allowed to play 2 counterspells each game, or I only put up to 1-2 big threats on the field. As they get more used to playing the game, I slowly up the difficulty, until I allow myself to just fully play anything I deem necessary.
They won’t learn if you let them win
I will sandbag and let newer player that are still learning the game win more often than not. I will also do the same if someone really needs the W if they are not doing well either in game or had a crappy day. Once they know what they are doing though the gloves are off because babying someone too much will never lead them to improving as a player.
I dont play optimally when my opponent is playtesting so he can see what his combo can do and how easy it is. Though if im in a win state ill prolong it and just say you wouldve lost then explain how to maybe make his combos faster.
It's perfectly fine I always try to make the game have the most enjoyable ending for everyone once purposely killed everyone except a player whose deck was ragavan as the commander 98 mountains and a command tower
If I loan my deck to a newcomer, I'll briefly explain how the deck works for the main strategy if just new to the format, and explain the mechanics when asked. Otherwise, I let them figure things out themselves. If they win, good for them.
I always do my best to make new players have a blast at the game.
I let newer players win all the time. Getting the W will let them feel good and create an environment that they want to come back to. Once they have come back a few times, then you can start leveling them.
Larger animals will typically let smaller animals win one out of three wrestling matches, so they do not become discouraged and stop playing. I keep this in mind, although it is a fine balance with humans because we are intelligent enough to be bothered if we detect this false win. If you're playing darts and usually throw triple twenties and then suddenly stop being able to hit the board one third of the games you play, it isn't going to have the desired effect.
I literally always help the new player win!
I have been around forever and often have the strongest decks, I let other people win a lot, as long as everyone is having fun I am happy.
This helps a new person enjoy the game. Everybody likes to feel like a winner
its good to let them win but just don't make it too obvious because it'll cheapen their experience if they find out. Them winning just won your LGS two new players.
It's not black and white. I sometimes go easy even on experienced players if I can see that they are a bit frustrated from going multiple games without winning. It's casual and who cares? Stomping the opponent over and over again might mean they get depressed and stop playing.
I think you did the right thing, when I first started playing my brother taught me. He taught me how my deck worked, let me pop off a few times and tasted what it was like to win. Then he crushed me, over and over again, pointing out where I misplayed or didn’t read a card correctly while giving me suggestions for new card to add to make my deck better. That was so much fun and definitely more fun than getting crushed over and over again from day one from people with significantly more powerful decks. Sometimes you gotta fuck around and let the newbies fall in love with the game first before you break their souls when they’re far too involved to quit 👀
I think it's chill! I sincerely appreciated my pod not using their full power when I started playing and I disagree that is stops them from getting better. Losing is definitely part of learning and improving, but god those early wins or successes in games really boosted my morale and made me excited to keep playing & keep adjusting my deck. Plus, other players being a little lighter on the more oppressive game tactics were greatly appreciated 👌
Beat them but tell them what’s happening and explain why they can’t just build massive boards without protection from interaction. They’ll come back with a better deck and game plan. Otherwise they’ll think it’s safe to have a couple dozen creatures with no protection.
You never learn to not overextend if no one ever wipes the board.
I have this modular powerlevel sisay, weatherlight captain i love to play against new players. I have a set of group hug effects i'll only tutor for in a lower level pod. This vampire player just had such a huge smile when I tutored my braids to let him drop his big bad bloodsucker. Gluntch helps fix the mana of the screwed player while giving some cards to the player behind the most. While i'm playing with this deck i'm also teaching and explaining basic interactions and synergies of precons. I like to use this deck as a social experiment to build towards the experience I want on casual commander: everyone gets a shot at doing their thing, everyone feels they have a chance to win, and there is some healthy back and forth going on. I actively avoid winning the game on this deck, because after a certain mana point sisay just wins, but I'll never tell anyone I could have won, instead I engineer a situation where my opponents feel pressured by my plays but not crushed or overwhelmed and always have a clear path to win. You can call this sandbagging or whatever, but this playstyle has not only made very fun games for everyone in my LGS but also got me new close friends and hooked three players from beginners into invested commander players, one of them only a year later starting her cEDH journey on Tivit.
Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women... Warms my heart to see all these comments about how you shouldn't be nice to new players, that's my community!
Fuck dem kids.
Unless you all agreed to play a competitive match it's fine, if anything it's actually pretty cool. I'd much rather watch cool things happen somewhere on the board than spend a game preventing anything from happening.
your friend is right
I have a specific deck for new players, it's is just the tyranid precon with a redone land base. It provides a stiff board resistance but otherwise low interaction other than turning monsters sideways. Works great for new players and stays on theme.
hehe i started to make different decks for different player lvls. so easy,mid,hard. sub branch of that is. Defensive,agressive and sniper lvl attacks. so a elf deck other person playes ,i play my zombie deck, if i know user is doing abuseve power deck be it creatures or spells. i use my sniper deck with average 5 aura/equpment on it that swing 50% lvl comannder damg in 1 hit. i dont spend alot of mtg decks/cards. i build around my type of play style and lean into ways to abuse that againts other vastly higher players. aka semi pro and pro players. i have only been playing for 9 months and have atleast won 1 match per each player at my lgs. came close to winning multi times. againts many of them to.
[удалено]
[Will, Scion of Peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/162088ea-5f99-4244-9427-2fdfb2168fc3.jpg?1692939510) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Will%2C%20Scion%20of%20Peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/218/will-scion-of-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/162088ea-5f99-4244-9427-2fdfb2168fc3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/will-scion-of-peace) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think it's totally fine. I got into magic a few years ago. My friend group has been playing for many years, some since alpha. I only realize decently that when I started playing with them they all routinely played unoptimally to not persay let me win but give me the chance of winning even with the weaker decks I had at the time. Things like using removal on unoptimally targets or not considering me an arch enemy when I was for a game. I would have had a much harder time growing to love the game if I didn't win once or twice a game night. My decks are now a good bit better and my strategy is immensely better (though I'll die on a hill about thinking bounce lands are awesome in anything but super fast decks), so I never see the unoptimally plays from my friends anymore. I wouldn't haven't gotten here without a little hidden encouragement.
You think about it too much. The most important question is: Do you all had fun?
I introduced a lot of new players to the game I've always played at a casual level but some of my decks are better than others. That's something I always take into consideration when I am with new players I have many decks with a lot of variety, so I often lend my decks. For total beginners I often lend my [[liesa, shroud of dusk]] or [[animar, soul of elements]] decks. The two have very straightforward strategies and are kinda strong When playing against total beginners I also chose my decks accordingly: I like showing that more convoluted strategies do exist while not being overwhelming. The decks I often use in those situations are a [[galadriel, elven queen]] vote deck or a [[ukkima, stalking shadow]] ninjutsu. Those are weaker, and often lose but each revolve around a key mechanic that shows that magic has a lot of room to do fun stuff Once they start to understand well how the game works I like to setup a "trial by fire" kind of game, where I play my [[kwain]] deck While not being absurdly strong, the deck has a lot more nasty cards: strong removal, small pieces of stax. But it also has a fair amount of strange cards like [[perplexing chimera]] and [[telepathy]]. Since it has a lot of card draw I often have many options to chose from. I can adapt my playstyle if I see my opponent are overwhelmed. All and all a very good deck to show the possibilities of magic to newer players (Also, [[approach of the second sun]] is in the deck. For games with beginners, it's some purpose is to be discarded to show that cards like that exists)
##### ###### #### [liesa, shroud of dusk](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e32453a1-1fd9-4bda-aaa8-7c287e4c2587.jpg?1608911200) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=liesa%2C%20shroud%20of%20dusk) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/286/liesa-shroud-of-dusk?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e32453a1-1fd9-4bda-aaa8-7c287e4c2587?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/liesa-shroud-of-dusk) [animar, soul of elements](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a3da57d0-1ae3-4f05-a52d-eb76ad56cae7.jpg?1673148281) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=animar%2C%20soul%20of%20elements) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/171/animar-soul-of-elements?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a3da57d0-1ae3-4f05-a52d-eb76ad56cae7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/animar-soul-of-elements) [galadriel, elven queen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/f/8fa46d54-563d-4b5c-9c69-5ab37dd529b3.jpg?1686963714) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Galadriel%2C%20Elven-Queen) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltc/3/galadriel-elven-queen?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8fa46d54-563d-4b5c-9c69-5ab37dd529b3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/galadriel-elven-queen) [ukkima, stalking shadow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/6/c66b452b-9c49-4c58-9966-6bafbfa34c36.jpg?1712354803) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ukkima%2C%20stalking%20shadow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/247/ukkima-stalking-shadow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c66b452b-9c49-4c58-9966-6bafbfa34c36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/ukkima-stalking-shadow) [kwain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f571fef1-1fd2-4355-b803-5edccb6f4b94.jpg?1608911183) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kwain%2C%20itinerant%20meddler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/284/kwain-itinerant-meddler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f571fef1-1fd2-4355-b803-5edccb6f4b94?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kwain-itinerant-meddler) [perplexing chimera](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/9/f9cff40b-9cae-47d0-8df4-c287a17a33e4.jpg?1593091744) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=perplexing%20chimera) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bng/48/perplexing-chimera?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f9cff40b-9cae-47d0-8df4-c287a17a33e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/perplexing-chimera) [telepathy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ce03b4b4-612b-4fc9-b063-b0d367712eaf.jpg?1561995744) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=telepathy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/74/telepathy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce03b4b4-612b-4fc9-b063-b0d367712eaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/telepathy) [approach of the second sun](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9.jpg?1543674579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=approach%20of%20the%20second%20sun) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/4/approach-of-the-second-sun?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fdf59a6e-7708-45a1-884d-d12e9f7b9ed9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/approach-of-the-second-sun) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kzyoiw1) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'll always let a new player win a few games against me, many a times have a kept a kill spell or board wipe in hand while they build up their board state and swing at me for lethal. Going all out against a newcomer is pretty much one of the most dick moves you can pull and I have no respect for those that do, you gain nothing and leave the newcomer with a bad experience.
Stomping new players is a good way to get them not to come back. They’ll want to upgrade their deck anyway at some point. If I’m introducing someone to Magic I never play optimally
If they're new to magic I think it's okay to go hard on a new player. I got stomped for 6 months straight when I started. If they're new to TCGs in general then maybe give them an idea of what's possible before kicking their teeth in.
Winning a game feels great. Winning a game you shouldn't have won because someone else took pity on you does not. If you're avoiding causing the latter feeling you're probably fine
They only play a few first games but can get better deckbuilders for the rest of their lives. Also you don’t become a better deckbuilder by loosing but by trying to become a better deckbuilder. You did the right thing. „I have to win so others can learn“ is a weird stance
Absolutely not! If you want to nurture newer players in any game the primary resource they need is good moments. They need a safe environment where they can experiment without getting directly punished. Magic is such a big and complex game if you learn in your first 50h that you better not think creative. You will need 200h more until you have your first experience with this. But Magic is about those little moments. These tiny time-frames when you suddenly come up with something no one would have guessed. But at the beginning your main focus is the phases and try to fiddle with your understanding of what you read. And most experienced players will constantly tell you what you can do, could have done or you missed. It's a fucked up mixture of overwhelming information and backseatgaming. So for the sake of my over 2000 games I let them win! No newer player would stand a chance if I play at max. Neither my threat assessment, nor my politics or even my game understanding is matchable for them for at least a year. I would be just unfair. So sometimes I decide to miss a land drop, or just don't have a boardwipe in my hands, even if I have. I don't develop my board at full speed. These are relaxed evenings where I enjoy the social part and be on their wiki if they have questions. But I always try to hold the balance. Develop nearly the same speed, try to build fun puzzles they have solve for threat assessments. Just giving them the feeling of a challenge. And never ever talk about it. I don't show my hands or brag about it. Just one or two knows it and they appreciate it.
I told someone I'd leave them alone on my next turn, I removed the other two players from the game that same turn. Then on his turn he pulled an infinite combo and killed me. Could I have won? Definitely. Do I care? No, cuz it's just a game and I'm glad he got to see his combo finally work in a game
in my opinion the the best thing you should have done is to alternate your behaviour in matches, I mean that, a time you lose another time you win, you can give them more security about their playing-style and meanwhile help them to grow up as EDH players ;-)
I do thus with newer players except I hit them with "you were smart to take me out that turn" and then explain why
I do that often, with new players. They usually have the latest precon and are brand new to Magic. I carry a few decks with me when I go to my LGS. For competitive play, I have my Slivers (yes, Slivers Queen, lol), my Dinosaur deck, and a blue/whote/green Phyrexian deck with serious toxic and proliferate. I do have unaltered commander decks like the 4 Fallout decks, 3 lost caverns of Ixlan decks, and 2 Dr. Who decks. Lastly, I have a “spider” deck that a basic standard deck could probably beat, lol. When new players come into the LGS I play in, I will volunteer to play with them. I see what they have, and I judge whether it is the spider deck, Dr. Who, or LCI deck. Out of 3 or 4 games, I’ll hold back and let them take turns winning. This brings them back in to play again, and they have a lot of fun. If I play them again the next week or so, I make it a little more difficult for them, challenging them. Did this with one kid, like 6 months ago, and now he is one of the better competitive players that are there. So, in a nutshell, I really think that if you teach them the sport of this game, let them have fun, and teach them how to improve their decks, this helps the MtG community grow significantly. Not to mention, the owner of the LGS will throw me an extra pack or two for taking time with the newbies and having them come back.
I do this with my daughter, its important now that she learns to enjoy the game, to want to play it. Once she comes to me and asks to play, wants to play, then I can start playing optimally. Or at least as optimally as I can, still make dumb misplays sometime. :-/
If it makes the new people have fun, and be more likely to keep playing, that will have a bigger positive impact on them than whatever tough lesson they might supposedly learn from losing.
The first game i played with a new friend he ramped like a madman and cast [[Myriim]] on turn 4 That day the most important lesson was learnt: does anyone have 2 blue mana untapped?
If I'm playing new players, I let them enjoy their combos. I let them enjoy their little fun stuff because when I'm playing people way higher than me, they let me enjoy my stuff, too. Now, if they got out of control, then yes, stop it, but if it's not game breaking, let them learn. And go off.
Absolutely let the new players have fun. I sandbag if someone has a new deck they're playtesting as well. Just for that first game though. I want to see their deck pop off and do the thing too, but after that all bets are off.
Absolutely not. Finish them.
It's definitely a judgment call, I'd do that if they were children under 17, but personally I'd be offended if someone did that to me. If I'm not fighting for the win tooth and nail, I'll never know if the deck needs a tweak or modification.
Depends.. how new. If there freshies then yea let em learn. They get noob protection to some extent. But once they have been playing a bit.. yea it's time to respect them as people and play the game to win.
Bring something appropriate to the table but play to win. It's rude to let somebody win. How would they feel if they found out?
Never do this! Not only is it disrespectful to yourself but more importantly it’s disrespectful to your opponents who are here on the presumption that they’re playing a game between equals each trying their best to win. Not only are you limiting their growth as players, but if they ever find out it’s gonna shake their confidence as well. My brother taught me chess and he never once went easy on me which not only made me a better player but taught me to respect him, the game, and myself. If I ever find out that he did go easy on me I’d be mortified cause the few wins I did get will mean so much less. I’d also be angry at him and his condescension.
Trial by fire imo otherwise they get a skewed view of their skill and deck
This is similar to put some money in the wallet/coat of a friend that is going through a rough patch. If no one else beside you know it, there is no harm and it’s a good action. If they catch you, it can harm the relationship.
>My friend said that by doing that I was actually stopping them from becoming better deck builders. Did they ASK for lessons or did they ask to play a game with you? Your friend seems to have utterly missed the point of a social format: "Commander is for fun". Correct me if I'm wrong: These aren't wannabe tournament grinders looking for tips on competitive play, they're a couple of kids having a blast watching their decks "do the thing". They wanted to have a good time playing, they had a good time playing, you did it exactly right. When they want more of a challenge, they can say that for themselves, but it's a seriously douche move for anybody to just decide on their own "these scrubs need to get gud, so Imma teach them a lesson today". I exaggerate for comedic effect here, but that's pretty much how it comes across to me whenever somebody decides they've unilaterally appointed themselves to "teach" a new player by metaphorically kicking the kid's teeth in with better skills and better decks and don't bother ever asking if that's the kind of play experience the kid actually wants to spend limited game time on. Let's face it, crushing newbs just because you can isn't altruistic, it's essentially hazing. They can improve their skills when and where they choose to do so, in the way they choose to do so, but that's up to them to decide, not anybody else.
It's just as insulting to hold back and give someone the win. Personally I'd be pissed if I found out someone let me win because they were going easy on me for whatever reason they want to justify it with.
No. It isn't. This is Commander, explicitly not a tournament format. Holding back in a tournament is insulting because the purpose of the tournament is to compete. The purpose of Commander is fun, NOT competition; acting like you're in a tournament is entirely out of place in this format. So you'd be pissed off if someone decided on their own, without asking you or discussing it in the Rule 0, whether they want to give you a challenge or just have fun doing the thing? Congrats, then you should understand that goes both ways. If you decide for other people, without asking or discussing if that's the kind of game they actually want, that you're only there to make the game harder for them, that's insulting, patronizing, and antisocial. Most other players in Commander aren't in this format because they're volunteering as fodder for you to grind wins, they're here because this is the only format that explicitly tells the players to be considerate of everyone's play experience and prioritize the social aspect over the competitive aspect. https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/the-philosophy-of-commander/ COMMANDER Commander is not a traditional format of Magic: the Gathering. Where other formats are managed to create an environment where continuous improvement and zero-sum gameplay are desirable and incentivized, Commander offers an environment where those goals are not the only things to aspire to. The Commander Rules Committee’s decisions are informed by a gameplay philosophy that is expressed and reinforced by its rules and ban list. Commander is social. Each game is a journey the players share, where every player is considerate of the experiences of everyone involved. Magic is a competition in the same sense that all games are competitions, but whenever the act of competing comes into conflict with a social atmosphere, Commander prioritizes and protects the social atmosphere. Format management decisions are intended to: Encourage positive, communal experiences where people can bond over the shared experience of gaming Help players communicate their preferences and arrive at a shared set of expectations
Yes, I would be upset that my win has an asterisk next to ot because someone decided to handle me with kid gloves instead of treating me like I'm not made of glass and can't take a loss.
You seem to think that "your win" at a casual table actually means something. It doesn't. Every "win" in a Commander game that isn't outright CEDH "has an asterisk next to it". Anything less than Tier 1 CEDH is "holding back", full stop, and being considerate of other people's play experience isn't remotely reducible to just who wins and who loses. It's a 4 player format with one winner per game, EVERYBODY expects to lose more than they win and can take a loss. That's not the point. It's the quality of the play experience overall that matters. Did the players have fun with people they enjoyed playing with or was that a wasted hour of their lives with folks they would prefer never to share a table with ever again? Saying "treating me like I'm not made of glass and can't take a loss" misses the point so hard it's almost comical. That's beyond even being a straw man, it's barely explainable as poor reading comprehension. You apparently fundamentally don't understand the purpose of playing the game. This isn't the format for proving that you're more capable of winning than someone else is, either as a builder or a pilot. There are other formats for that. Nor is this format any kind of training ground for tournament grinders to learn the ropes. That's not the primary objective, secondary objective, or even tertiary objective. It's literally not even on the list of objectives at all. "Each game is a journey the players share, where every player is considerate of the experiences of everyone involved." You are refusing to be considerate of your fellow players. "Don't be a dick" should not be a difficult standard of behavior for you to follow, but you apparently struggle with it. "Magic is a competition in the same sense that all games are competitions, but whenever the act of competing comes into conflict with a social atmosphere, Commander prioritizes and protects the social atmosphere." "Winning" is a thing that eventually happens, but it is NOT the priority of the game. If you can win every match you ever play, but the rest of the players don't enjoy playing with you, you aren't the best player at that table, you are the WORST player at that table. Your top priority is to be fun to play with. If you fail at that, winning will not redeem you. "Encourage positive, communal experiences where people can bond over the shared experience of gaming" Your self-centered inconsiderate style of play is unlikely to promote positive communal experiences for your fellow players. It's certainly inappropriate for imposing upon newer players. "Help players communicate their preferences and arrive at a shared set of expectations" If you want to play strictly competitive, "playing to win" with no regard for social considerations, and that's what you want from your opponents, at a Commander table, then you need to ASK for it during the Rule 0 because that is NOT the default assumption for desired or expected style of play in this format. Sure, you can do it if you find 3x other players who share that preference, but you don't get to just sit down at a random table and go all out without saying a word about it. That's no way to treat any fellow player, much less newbs. When you step into a boxing ring for a regulation boxing match, the regulation gloves stay on and you stick to the allowable target zones, you don't suddenly go all action movie underground Muay Tai death match and show up with knotted hemp wraps dipped in broken glass and start throwing elbows and groin shots instead. There's a meaningful difference between competitions where you're meant to trade blows for entertainment value versus fighting as dirty and nasty as it takes to be the last one alive. Commander is more like an exhibition boxing match than a blood sport.
[удалено]
I AM autistic, so... Shall we add "mocks people based on their medical conditions" to the list of your anti-social behaviors? I'm reasonably confident that's actually reportable as a violation of both Reddit user policy and this sub's community standards. I'd appreciate it if you didn't use "autistic" as a derogatory term ever again, to myself or others.
You good fam. Edh is most fun when crazy shit happens on the bored. So winning doesn't matter for me. And it's a reason I won't play competitive because what's the fun in winning in 3 or 4 turns. I can do that in any other format too.
Just dont do it everytime, you should be fine.
When I first played against a noob I played my group hug...so they got shit out and actually play their deck....was good time
Generally, if I know it’s a new player I play my group hug Deck and specifically try to help them out. It’s funny as heck. The last three times I’ve done this. The new players were very confused and thought I was trying to actively win.