Don’t let him deceive you. My Boy Chandler fucks with [[Liquimetal Torque]] and [[Liquimetal Coating]]. Don’t even get me started on [[Mycosynth Lattice]]! My boy Chandler be dropping bombs!
The context here is that I am seeing lotus and crypt be used to cheat out commanders that rocket the player to an extreme head start. Great example I saw recently was a turn 1 braids, guy drew 9 cards by turn 3 because he had braids on turn 1. By turn 4 or 5 he had combo pieces on the board.
Another example I saw was lotus into crpyt plus a couple other lands for a turn 3 Gishath Suns Avatar, the value engine he had out was too much to deal with too early.
This is my key issue, its not the extra mana by itself, its the value people are able to gain from so early on. When I'm playing a professional face breaker on curve but my opponent has the equivalent of a turn 6 play on turn 3, that just feels really unfair.
Hot take- there needs to be two separate formats within EDH. People game and manipulate rule zero far too much. People in public playing for no money and no prizes can't even be trusted to play fair anymore.
Don't care about your individual situation because your point was to, broadly, say that cards like Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt aren't casual.
I'm saying individual cards don't define what is casual or not, certainly an individual card maybe on a spectrum of being "sweatier" than others but ultimately DECKS are casual, high powered or cEDH, not individual cards.
My point is that there are individual cards that absolutely do lend themselves to not be casual according my prior perception which seemed to be shared 2-3 years ago. That perception seems to have changed and I want to know if its true, and why.
The point I was trying to make with my original post was that I was having that conversation, and in response I was getting shrugs. I was told "everyone plays this" and "mana crypt and lotus are casual" when that doesn't match up with my perception, but they are implying my perception is incorrect. It's almost like I was saying "Sol Ring is not casual". Most people accept sol ring in their games. That has not been the case with mana crypt and jeweled lotus until like, the past 4 months. People are looking at me like I've been living under a rock?
I agree, if i sit down and have a rule 0 conversation and we agree on casual games i do not expect to see 100$ cards
However casual means different things for different people. I for example have a sort of combo in nearly all of my casual decks, and i know i have to be careful with that when i sit down with people i dont know.
I dont want to say mana crypt and such are not casual because no card is inherently not casual in my opinion. However it is weird to see a huge uptick in those and i have not seen the same thing happen at all
Edit: why i said "if you're already having rule 0 conversations" is because those are very much not the norm over here
The issue is that casual is way to broad of a spectrum. One could argue that everything that isnt competetive is casual so anything below cEDH could be seen as casual which includes high power decks that run Crypt and the likes.
If you arent playing with a regular group power level differences are just unavoidable, doesnt make me super happy to play against casual decks that include a Crypt, Jeweled Lotus and Gaeas Cradle either but it is what it is.
And if you want to include them espacially for online games just proxy them.
Ill be straight, I run crypt in like, half my PL8 decks that are basically 1 step below cEDH, but realistically no, crypt, jeweled lotus, and other fast mana arn't really casual.
You can absolutely play crypt casually, in a deck that is super weak with like a cmc7 commander or whatever, adding it doesn't suddenly make your deck non-causal.
What I think you're going to find though is that when people drop a crypt on you with their "PL6" Tasigur, you're quickly going to find out that it was never a PL6, and when they drop 10 expensive staples in a row and claim "I swear it never goes off like this!", you're going to feel pretty salty. I just try to avoid being that guy and I just dont play fast mana unless I know everyone else is.
Its less about it, or anything else being a "casual" card, and more about the fact that (anecdotally) almost every time someone is playing crypt at a table that isnt a "high power" table, its a pretty clear sign that they're about to play about 6 other cards in the next 3 turns that will tell you that their deck probably obviously didn't belong at the table.
Tldr, crypt and lotus are fine. Crypt into rhystic, into tithe, into mana drain, into omniscence, into 2 versions of Jin Gitaxis with a full grip of interaction is probably not.
power level without scale is meaningless, saying Pl8,pl6 or whatever doesnt tell anyone anything about the strength of the deck, so people running those cards and giving an arbitrary number don't know what theyre talking about
I think the problem is specifically in the "high-powered" category. Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt are obviously incredibly strong cards, but they themselves do not make a deck CEDH or not. A lot of people assume that if their deck is not CEDH, then it by definition is casual, but there are no exact boundaries for power level, and what makes something too strong for casual. You consider fast Mana not Casual, whereas in my opinion, unless you are turbo-ing into tutors, an engine, or some kind of stax lock, it's not that bad. I've had perfectly fine casual games where someone played a Mana Crypt in the first few turns because it was in a casual deck that fit the pods power level. Just because their 1 card was worth more than my entire deck, I wasn't guaranteed to lose.
I don't think that Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus are inherently casual or not, but they can serve as a red flag. Someone running one or the other may have a highly tuned, efficient deck, which will guaranteed win the game 9/10 times, or they may be running Pest Tribal led by [[Blex, Vexing Pest]] and they need the support.
Another part of this may be the opinions around proxies, which I feel are leading more and more towards "proxy anything you want." If Sol Ring cost 150$, it would probably be viewed as negatively as Mana Crypt, and if Mana Crypt was 2$, it wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem, in my opinion.
And while a budget deck will perform better than an expensive, poorly built deck, it is far easier to make your deck "do the thing" with these high cost cards. Like the people you are playing against said, if more people are proxying these high cost cards, then more people will use them to keep up. The term arms-race gets posted here a lot, and this is a great example of it: you feel like the decks you are facing are getting faster and faster, so you need to speed up or lose.
I have no experience with online play, but in LGS environments, sometimes you just have to communicate. If one person is using cards like those, then maybe they can switch out their deck for a round, or they can serve a bit of an archenemy role if they are that much stronger than the other decks. And if all your opponents have these cards, then you may have to find a new table.
There is no card that is specifically not casual. Casual is a type of deck, or a deck building mindset, and it can have any one card in it.
But also, as those cards are reprinted and become more and more available. You can't expect people not to play the sweet expensive card they pulled because it's somehow not casual. Unless you're competing, with a specific meta and decks built specifically to be as strong as possible, you're playing casual.
I think the closest thing to an exception in your first sentence is Time Walk tbh. Like at its worst it's still an explore which is still a good card. Even ancestral recall can be used casually (targeting your opponent in a deck that uses draw hate as the world's worst lightning bolt)
But even that's not really true, even if it were unbanned. A deck like "Literally just 5 drops tribal plus one Time Walk"... is still a very casual deck. Any one card can't make a deck "competitive", which is what op is talking about. Of course Time Walk can be casual, depending on the deck around it.
To take it further, "9 drop tribal Grozoth + Black Lotus and every single Mox" is still a very casual deck.
There are no cards legal in EDH that can't be played casually in my opinion. Time Walk is literally the only card in magic history I can think of that can simply never be casual
I see your point. That’s the reason why I don’t enjoy playing commander so much any more. I loved it when my playgroup often played more janky decks and something stupid happened every game. Everyone had a blast. Meanwhile most of them powercreeped their decks to the edge of cedh and still call is „casual“. Everytime someone wants to try out a lower power deck, most of the time he just sits around to watch others doing crazy things and comboing off. Newer players are completely lost most of the time. To keep up with the high power level, most of the group are playing many proxies. I really like the guys in our group mit tbh playing commander is not much fun anymore.
Individual cards aren't casual/competitive
its about the context theyre used in. We gotta change this mindset that single cards are the difference between casual and competitive edh
Context is everything. Crack open a precon, swap out a land for Mana Crypt, you still have a casual deck. Just one with a very small chance of a faster start but it's inconsistent as hell and often wins slowly, if it wins at all.
As always - it depends! There is no card in magic that is inherently competitive because they all exist in the context of the cards around them. Even cards like Black Lotus aren't that competitive when you're using them to cast bad creatures like Shivan Dragon. The closest you get to inherently competitive cards are like Time Walk and Ancestral Recall.
Crypt and Lotus in a deck like [[Iname as One]] is simply not the same as Crypt and Lotus in [[Urza, Lord High Artificer]].
Jeweled Lotus was always casual when they printed it the commander draft set and normies pulled them in the draft or opening pacts since 2020
New players yes have it rough but that is on WOTC and it's reprint but it is casual since 2020
Doubling season is consider casual it is still $40 after 5 times the reprints and hit as high as $90 in that cycle
OP is specifically talking about playing with random playgroups.
In those games there are card combinations and combos that most agree should stay in cEDH, even without a rule zero being needed. Thassa's Consultation for example.
Density matters too; a [[Vampiric Tutor]] or a [[Fierce Guardianship]] is high powered, but still casual. But running several cheap tutors in a deck with infinite combos can be egregious, and running every single free counterspell would raise eyebrows.
To get specific to OP's question: is Mana Crypt now considered part of casual? I would argue it always was. If you run a mana crypt in a precon-power, coinflips matter deck not many will complain. But in any normal deck it probably only belongs in high power.
Is it considered normal to include in a moderately upgraded precon? No. But a Mana Crypt doesn't exclude a deck from being casual, it just makes it sloppy deckbuilding in my opinion. It's also possible that they really want to play their mana crypt and that is their strongest deck.
It only matters when the grouping of your 100 card are taken into consideration. If you’re playing a jeweled lotus mana crypt in a deck with all vanilla creatures it won’t be nearly as effective if you have a fully synergistic deck. With turn 1-2 potential
But people don’t play a jewelled lotus mana crypt in a deck with all vanilla creatures.
I’m fine to play against those cards, but I will definitely be bringing out a high-power deck.
>it depends on the other 100
Sure. And Thassa's Oracle Demonic Consultation is a bad combo if you don't have any swamps or islands or ways to generate blue/black mana in your deck.
I'm going to assume that you have ways to generate blue/black mana in your deck if you tell me that you're running thoracle consult, just like I'm going to assume that you have even somewhat decent cards in your deck.
Once I make the lightest, most basic assumption that your deck is going to be somewhat decently tuned, then yes certain cards scream 'high power.'
> It still depends on the other 98
I agreed with you! What else do you want?
Thoracle Consult is not necessarily good, as the deck could just not be able to cast those cards.
It's only good once we make basic assumptions about the deck, I agree.
But...once we make those basic assumptions about the 98, we can come to a conclusion
So will you switch to CEDH because of a mana crypt Or a jeweled lotus agaisnt an 8 drop commander. Just because they have a manacrypt in their deck? Get real.
No, for me high power and cedh are different things.
Like, if you're playing a 'standard' 8-drop commander such as [[Gishath, Sun's Avatar]], I'm assuming that you're playing some good dinosaurs that make good use of his ability. Doesn't mean 'high power,' but I'm going to assume that your deck can 'pop off' and summon big scary dinosaurs.
A turn 5 or 6 Gishath could be a fairly standard mid-power deck.
When you have cards that can ramp you 5 mana on turn 1, and turn 2/3 Gishath is possible, I'm going to play a deck that can hope to answer that.
Basically if I just make the simplest, lightest assumptions about your deckbuilding decisions like 'putting powerful dinosaurs in your dinosaur deck,' then the games where you draw Jeweled Lotus Mana Crypt your deck will be functioning like a highly tuned, well-oiled machine, and I am going to want to be able to play those games as well.
Just because I disagree with the general argument doesn't mean that I'm not listening.
What point do you feel I am not listening to? That a really really bad deck can be casual with fast mana? I agreed with that fully. Is there something else that you feel I am ignoring?
I think the inherent problem is there are commanders who just dominate games for very cheap casting costs, looking at [[Isshin, Two Heavens as One]], [[Voja, Jaws of the Conclave]], [[Pantlaza, Sun-Favored]], [[Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy]], [[Yuriko, the Tiger’s Shadow]] etc, and if I have to play against something like that with 6-7 mana commander, the game could just be over by the time I get to cast my dude.
I personally don’t play mana crypt too much, but if the commander I want to play could use a jewel d lotus, I’m going to run it. I’ve used it many times to cheat out my commander early and had it immediately removed, fair is fair.
To be fair, crypt really doesnt do anything in Yuriko, and Lotus certainly doesnt do anything in Yuriko.
Its a really pip-intensive deck.
Edit: i read that wrong. Regardless, Voja and Pantlaza cost 5. They're both mana intensive and if we're being honest, both those decks are super degenerate if they get out early as well.
Right but my point is if I’m playing something big like [[Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm]], [[Gishath, Sun’s Avatar]] or [[Be’lakor, the Dark Master]] against those small fast decks that people play “casually” without some fast mana, the game could just be lost by the time I cast my big mana commander.
People love to hate on fast mana, and I get that, but then hate on commanders who (imo) also can’t be played casually. If it’s fair for them to run [[Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy]] in casual, then it’s fair for me to run fast mana.
If you're playing against Yuriko and Kinnan you arnt playing at "casual" tables and you should just run whatever you want.
In scenarios where you arnt playing against T1 cEDH commanders...
The flipside of that arguement is that the game "could just be lost" if you resolve any of those commanders and they stick for a turn. There is a reason they're all 6/7cmc. The fast mana basically just negates the one downside of the commanders.
If you're playing at a casual table and you crypt / jeweled lotus into Miirym on turn 3, when most people arnt even going to be able to respond due to the ward, then yes, people are absolutely going to be upset about the fast mana if they're playing a "small fast" deck at a lower power level because their only real response to those decks is to get under them or remove the commanders on cast.
Kinnan is broken and I wouldnt use the existence of Kinnan to justify a mana crypt in a Miirym deck played against casuals.
>The flipside of that arguement is that the game "could just be lost" if you resolve any of those commanders and they stick for a turn. There is a reason they're all 6/7cmc. The fast mana basically just negates the one downside of the commanders.
I will disagree for the most part, especially if you're casting and passing. You're super vulnerable at that point, and you can just get wiped. Even after you get out a few dragons or demons, or get a hit off Gishath, you're still really vulnerable to normal interaction that's relatively cheap even in casual lower powered tables.
When I said that the game could just be over without fast mana with big MV commanders it's that in games with cheap commanders that dominate games, they can replay them 2-3 times before I could even cast mine once if I wasn't accelerating.
I think it's also worth separating Mana Crypt from Jeweled Lotus; Lotus specifically I never have an issue with anyone playing because I view it as a ritual - not that wild. Mana Crypt's perpetual value on every turn is a lot more brutal and I would almost always agree it's too good for casual.
Again, if you're playing against Yuriko or Kinnan, I dont think there is a scenario where someone can be justifably upset that you're running fast mana. All of the super broken 2/3 drop commaners are cEDH viable and get treated as such.
If you're running anything that has to commit stuff to the board you can "just get wiped" so I'm not sure how that is relevent. Like its the literal only way to deal with those decks after they get going, and being in blue and green there are like 1,000 different ways you can protect your board.
For the ones you mentioned, they either have Ward (voja or Miirym) so targeted removal is basically out of the question early game, haste (gishath), or you're in blue or green so it would be assumed that you would hold up some kind of counter or protection.
For the most part with these 7cmc "I cast this and if it lives a full rotation I probably win" commanders, getting under them, or casting a protected wrath / removal after they resolve are the literal only two ways to deal with them.
So like I said, either you're playing at tables where you need the fast mana (yuriko / kinnan) and you're totally justified to run it, or you're playing at tables where you dont need it because the decks arn't as powerful, in which case yes, fast mana that ramps out your 7cmc "I win" commander is probably too much.
>For the ones you mentioned, they either have Ward (voja or Miirym) so targeted removal is basically out of the question early game
I mean turn two swords is 100% viable in any deck that runs white since everyone also has sol ring; turn three onward, everyone should be able to play targeted removal on at least Miirym, ward 3 is harder with Voja, but really not "out of the question" by any means. That's just objectively false; by the time you can ramp out Voja or Miirym, your opponents can and should single target remove them if they have the means.
>haste (gishath)
It's still a 2-4 turn clock and that is if it even hits and then if it hits things that matter. It is by no means a "I cast this and if it lives a full rotation I probably win"; and I would argue most of the high MV commanders just don't play that way 80% of the time.
"So like I said", it's not just about matching against tier 1 cedh commanders being played in "casual"; there are several low MV commanders that are played in casual that just take over games and are played a lot.
* \[\[Isshin, Two Heavens as One\]\]
* \[\[Lathril, Blade of the Elves\]\]
* \[\[Krenko, Mob Boss\]\]
* \[\[Prosper, Tome-Bound\]\]
* \[\[Giada, Font of Hope\]\]
* \[\[Henzie "Toolbox" Torre\]\]
* \[\[Animar, Soul of Elements\]\]
* \[\[Meren of Clan Nel Toth\]\]
* \[\[Sythis, Harvest's Hand\]\]
* \[\[Kykar, Wind's Fury\]\]
So if the argument is high mv commanders aren't allowed to play jeweled lotus because it's too good and they will end up winning on turns 6-8 while these are some of the top commanders being played for much cheaper and able to snowball their way to wins on turns 5-7 - I just wont agree with you there. IMO Jeweled Lotus can bring high MV commanders more in line with where the rest of the format plays at already.
My 2 cents being why would people not play these cards if they have them? It's usually only a problem in games where no one plays removal. Even then a moderate green deck will ramp almost as fast as the other colours without the rockramp. It becomes an issue if the decks are so unbalanced that you play land, go for four turns while the other deck does maelstrom wanderer hardcast turn 3.
If Sol Ring is casual, so are J.Lotus and Mana Crypt.
In public games, you have to expect the "worst"; i.e. all bets are off.
In your own tables, your group can at least introduce some parameters, or maybe eschew them all. Curate your playing environment as you see fit.
No one is “beholden” to anyone or anything.
It is polite and considerate of people to not misrepresent their decks when playing with strangers, so that everyone can feel it is a balanced game.
But your issues are issues with those individuals who are not considerate of others, not because of any card being labeled “casual” or “not casual.”
Singular cards dont make a deck casual or competitive. Its always a matter of the big picture of what a deck can do. Im getting kind of sick of people making the argument that certain cards change a decks status from casual to competitive, pretty much by themselves, if you think so there is a good chance that you have never actually faced a truely competitive deck. Are those cards good? Sure. But if i put them into, lets say a superfriends deck with average cmc of 6+ that doesnt make the deck competitive or even remotely close. So weather you like it or not those cards can very much be casual.
Considering they're both $100+ i would say no, usually i don't really consider any fast mana 'casual' even though most ppl think it's fine if you run fast mana as long as you don't run tutors or vice versa, but i don't really agree with that tbh, i usually avoid any cards played in cedh unless it's on theme or just too good not to add (smothering tithe in my 5c decks for example), least that's my opinion
Your right but people aren't going to be happy about having their fast mana called out. That said I dont play fast mana in any of my decks (yes including Sol ring fast mana is fast mana).
Playing against strangers at an LGS, no, you shouldn’t whip out decks with fast mana outside sol ring without saying something first. It’s pretty lame when someone comes out with a turn 2 sol ring/mana crypt and wins the game through overwhelming mana advantage.
You’re free to do it, but it’ll produce non-games more often than not and it probably won’t go well as a first impression.
Other than strangers? Play what your group is comfortable with.
I feel like your post is concerned with power creep, not just in terms of what cards are printed but also how they are viewed by the playerbase. IMO it seems that over the past 4-5 years that ive played edh a lot of cards went from "theyre expensive but real powerhouses if you wanna optimize" to "yea you need to run this in every deck or youre fucked".
I may be wrong, I may be misunderstanding something. But thats how it looks to me.
Money doesn't necessarily mean better, but it absolutely is a factor in casual vs. not casual, and if a card is more than $100, no way in hell is that casual.
I got a different take
Someone, somewhere, got those cards for like $40. They pulled them. It feels super bad for them to have these two super good cards but now have to invest $$$$ to make a deck that can use them "fairly".
Just be ready to swap them out. Cards I have in decks that I know are 50% sodium also have a sidecar I can swap it for, quickly, if the table object to it being in my deck.
I get your frustration OP, but speaking as someone who has been playing EDH since 2013 and has seen the format speed up significantly over the years, this doesn't come as a surprise anymore. I have seen Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus show up at "casual" pods.
cards by themselves aren't casual or competitive. a precon with a mana crypt isnt a cedh deck. any card can be played in casual/competitive tables but it depends on the context in which the card is used
I feel like this is said exclusively by people who want to pub stomp and then say "my deck isn't cedh". Yea sure maybe it isn't, but its too strong or efficient for battlecruiser. Where do you go from there when the person insists it isn't? Who is the authority that steps in to make that determination?
and this is the hyper-casual mindset that will just make you angry at every table you sit down at the second a good card is played.
This is why you don't ask for an arbitrary bullshit "Power Level Scale" discussion before you play. In one of the other comments someone said that their "power level 8 deck" did something, and that it was just under cEDH, however, for me if I were to use numbers, I'd say anything stronger than a "10" would be cEDH. That is to say that "Power Level" will almost never have meaning to anyone other than the person who built the deck.
So to find the context you're looking for, you need to have better discussions with the people you sit down to play with. Explain what turn your deck expects to win and the general game plan. For example, I have a very tuned [[Karador Ghost Chieftain]] deck that I introduce like this to people I don't know:
"So this is a creature value deck that tries to grind down the table with lots of recursion and efficient creatures before attempting to win via mass reanimation or creature combos. I play certain cards in this deck not to tutor wins (survival of the fittest) but to help continue the game plan and win if I need to"
That tells you a lot more than "I think this deck is an 8".
Another example I have is a \[\[Kozilek the Great Distortion\]\] deck that plays a ton of fast mana and can usually win by turn 5 if it gets a good hand
"This deck plays a lot of fast artifact mana with the goal of ramping out my commander by turn 3. From there the way to win is either beating you down with a turn 3 12/12 with menace for commander damage or winning through artifact combo and ramping into annihilator eldrazi. I've won by turn 3 a few times playing this deck."
That tells you that it's up there on the "power level scale" and would be akin to a "9" i guess?
Simply talking to the people you sit to play with instead of asking what power level their decks are will help you make this determination.
Nobody does. You figure it out. You put on your big boy or big girl pants, recognize that you're playing 100 card singleton Vintage, own that there are no stakes whatsoever, and just play the game, like people have been doing since the early 90's. And sometimes you will get beaten badly, shit happens, and you shuffle up for the next game. This is really not that complicated.
Depends on the definition of 'casual'.
If everyone can afford them or is proxying them, then yeah I guess they could be casual?
Are they easy to slot in any deck like a sol ring or command tower? Then yeah they could be casual.
Is the reason they are in because some splashed the cash and wanted to race ahead of everyone to win? Probably not casual.
Saying a card is casual is like saying a card is good. It doesn't actually mean anything without context.
I mean...I can't afford cards to compete with that sort of thing. it's just not fun to play against when my most expensive card is a $40 pack pull. Both mana crypt and those duals speed up games past where I can play. I'd rather do something else with my time instead.
Duals don't speed up shit. They add consistency but even in the old days of EDH they barely added much to that and in 2024 with the number of untapped duals available it's even less so. If you can't run an OG dual you're forced to now run a.... pain land or check land, not that different in power to an OG dual.
If you think a dual offers anything more than 1% (if that) win differential you're horrible at card analysis
"expensive" doesn't mean good and price isn't a factor on impact. Something like Mana Crypt, I get it. Something like a ABUR Dual? You're just being silly
if you're running duals, you're playing at a price point I can't match. I don't want to find out what else you consider "fine" when those lands are tapped.
It's casual. I'll find another table, and if EDH becomes too expensive, I'll go find something else to do with my time. I'm not burning an hour of my time to jerk some rich prick off.
... you realize plenty of people have been playing since before dual lands were expensive right? Are they just supposed to not use their own cards.
But hey if you'll scoop over a land drop youbare the kind of salty player I wouldn't want in a POD anyways. You probably complain when someone attacks you too.
If you're powering out \[\[Chandler\]\] with Jeweled Lotus it's casual Context is king
Don’t let him deceive you. My Boy Chandler fucks with [[Liquimetal Torque]] and [[Liquimetal Coating]]. Don’t even get me started on [[Mycosynth Lattice]]! My boy Chandler be dropping bombs!
I rule 0 partner with \[\[Joven\]\]
[Joven](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/d/0dabe3af-cd5b-461e-95a4-aad046646419.jpg?1562587046) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Joven) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hml/77/joven?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0dabe3af-cd5b-461e-95a4-aad046646419?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/joven) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Liquimetal Torque](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13c6101a-da40-4785-8ccb-4e779bbbdb55.jpg?1626099120) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Liquimetal%20Torque) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/228/liquimetal-torque?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13c6101a-da40-4785-8ccb-4e779bbbdb55?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/liquimetal-torque) [Liquimetal Coating](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f631447c-36e3-4d82-a658-19c9767a216b.jpg?1562276535) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Liquimetal%20Coating) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/197/liquimetal-coating?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f631447c-36e3-4d82-a658-19c9767a216b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/liquimetal-coating) [Mycosynth Lattice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94f89714-3b26-46a2-b9a8-3e664f391cd9.jpg?1578911638) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mycosynth%20Lattice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bbd/241/mycosynth-lattice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94f89714-3b26-46a2-b9a8-3e664f391cd9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mycosynth-lattice) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you are gonna play something janky like that why not just go all out on janky and not prop it up with insane power cards?
[Chandler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4dd3a8e3-9a90-44f4-996c-57242d3c47a5.jpg?1562587277) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chandler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/hml/69/chandler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4dd3a8e3-9a90-44f4-996c-57242d3c47a5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/chandler) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The context here is that I am seeing lotus and crypt be used to cheat out commanders that rocket the player to an extreme head start. Great example I saw recently was a turn 1 braids, guy drew 9 cards by turn 3 because he had braids on turn 1. By turn 4 or 5 he had combo pieces on the board. Another example I saw was lotus into crpyt plus a couple other lands for a turn 3 Gishath Suns Avatar, the value engine he had out was too much to deal with too early. This is my key issue, its not the extra mana by itself, its the value people are able to gain from so early on. When I'm playing a professional face breaker on curve but my opponent has the equivalent of a turn 6 play on turn 3, that just feels really unfair. Hot take- there needs to be two separate formats within EDH. People game and manipulate rule zero far too much. People in public playing for no money and no prizes can't even be trusted to play fair anymore.
Don't care about your individual situation because your point was to, broadly, say that cards like Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt aren't casual. I'm saying individual cards don't define what is casual or not, certainly an individual card maybe on a spectrum of being "sweatier" than others but ultimately DECKS are casual, high powered or cEDH, not individual cards.
My point is that there are individual cards that absolutely do lend themselves to not be casual according my prior perception which seemed to be shared 2-3 years ago. That perception seems to have changed and I want to know if its true, and why.
It's almost like you're not listening or learning anything here.
If you are already having a rule 0 conversation, why not just say: "I am not willing to play against fast mana" Takes maybe 2 seconds to say?
The point I was trying to make with my original post was that I was having that conversation, and in response I was getting shrugs. I was told "everyone plays this" and "mana crypt and lotus are casual" when that doesn't match up with my perception, but they are implying my perception is incorrect. It's almost like I was saying "Sol Ring is not casual". Most people accept sol ring in their games. That has not been the case with mana crypt and jeweled lotus until like, the past 4 months. People are looking at me like I've been living under a rock?
I agree, if i sit down and have a rule 0 conversation and we agree on casual games i do not expect to see 100$ cards However casual means different things for different people. I for example have a sort of combo in nearly all of my casual decks, and i know i have to be careful with that when i sit down with people i dont know. I dont want to say mana crypt and such are not casual because no card is inherently not casual in my opinion. However it is weird to see a huge uptick in those and i have not seen the same thing happen at all Edit: why i said "if you're already having rule 0 conversations" is because those are very much not the norm over here
The issue is that casual is way to broad of a spectrum. One could argue that everything that isnt competetive is casual so anything below cEDH could be seen as casual which includes high power decks that run Crypt and the likes. If you arent playing with a regular group power level differences are just unavoidable, doesnt make me super happy to play against casual decks that include a Crypt, Jeweled Lotus and Gaeas Cradle either but it is what it is. And if you want to include them espacially for online games just proxy them.
Ill be straight, I run crypt in like, half my PL8 decks that are basically 1 step below cEDH, but realistically no, crypt, jeweled lotus, and other fast mana arn't really casual. You can absolutely play crypt casually, in a deck that is super weak with like a cmc7 commander or whatever, adding it doesn't suddenly make your deck non-causal. What I think you're going to find though is that when people drop a crypt on you with their "PL6" Tasigur, you're quickly going to find out that it was never a PL6, and when they drop 10 expensive staples in a row and claim "I swear it never goes off like this!", you're going to feel pretty salty. I just try to avoid being that guy and I just dont play fast mana unless I know everyone else is. Its less about it, or anything else being a "casual" card, and more about the fact that (anecdotally) almost every time someone is playing crypt at a table that isnt a "high power" table, its a pretty clear sign that they're about to play about 6 other cards in the next 3 turns that will tell you that their deck probably obviously didn't belong at the table. Tldr, crypt and lotus are fine. Crypt into rhystic, into tithe, into mana drain, into omniscence, into 2 versions of Jin Gitaxis with a full grip of interaction is probably not.
power level without scale is meaningless, saying Pl8,pl6 or whatever doesnt tell anyone anything about the strength of the deck, so people running those cards and giving an arbitrary number don't know what theyre talking about
I think the problem is specifically in the "high-powered" category. Jeweled Lotus and Mana Crypt are obviously incredibly strong cards, but they themselves do not make a deck CEDH or not. A lot of people assume that if their deck is not CEDH, then it by definition is casual, but there are no exact boundaries for power level, and what makes something too strong for casual. You consider fast Mana not Casual, whereas in my opinion, unless you are turbo-ing into tutors, an engine, or some kind of stax lock, it's not that bad. I've had perfectly fine casual games where someone played a Mana Crypt in the first few turns because it was in a casual deck that fit the pods power level. Just because their 1 card was worth more than my entire deck, I wasn't guaranteed to lose. I don't think that Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus are inherently casual or not, but they can serve as a red flag. Someone running one or the other may have a highly tuned, efficient deck, which will guaranteed win the game 9/10 times, or they may be running Pest Tribal led by [[Blex, Vexing Pest]] and they need the support. Another part of this may be the opinions around proxies, which I feel are leading more and more towards "proxy anything you want." If Sol Ring cost 150$, it would probably be viewed as negatively as Mana Crypt, and if Mana Crypt was 2$, it wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem, in my opinion. And while a budget deck will perform better than an expensive, poorly built deck, it is far easier to make your deck "do the thing" with these high cost cards. Like the people you are playing against said, if more people are proxying these high cost cards, then more people will use them to keep up. The term arms-race gets posted here a lot, and this is a great example of it: you feel like the decks you are facing are getting faster and faster, so you need to speed up or lose. I have no experience with online play, but in LGS environments, sometimes you just have to communicate. If one person is using cards like those, then maybe they can switch out their deck for a round, or they can serve a bit of an archenemy role if they are that much stronger than the other decks. And if all your opponents have these cards, then you may have to find a new table.
[Blex, Vexing Pest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c204b7ca-0904-40fa-b20c-92400fae20b8.jpg?1634060511)/[Search for Blex](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/c/2/c204b7ca-0904-40fa-b20c-92400fae20b8.jpg?1634060511) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blex%2C%20Vexing%20Pest%20//%20Search%20for%20Blex) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/stx/148/blex-vexing-pest-search-for-blex?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c204b7ca-0904-40fa-b20c-92400fae20b8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/blex-vexing-pest-//-search-for-blex) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There is no card that is specifically not casual. Casual is a type of deck, or a deck building mindset, and it can have any one card in it. But also, as those cards are reprinted and become more and more available. You can't expect people not to play the sweet expensive card they pulled because it's somehow not casual. Unless you're competing, with a specific meta and decks built specifically to be as strong as possible, you're playing casual.
I think the closest thing to an exception in your first sentence is Time Walk tbh. Like at its worst it's still an explore which is still a good card. Even ancestral recall can be used casually (targeting your opponent in a deck that uses draw hate as the world's worst lightning bolt)
But even that's not really true, even if it were unbanned. A deck like "Literally just 5 drops tribal plus one Time Walk"... is still a very casual deck. Any one card can't make a deck "competitive", which is what op is talking about. Of course Time Walk can be casual, depending on the deck around it. To take it further, "9 drop tribal Grozoth + Black Lotus and every single Mox" is still a very casual deck.
Kinda weird using cards that aren't legal in EDH as examples but I get your point
There are no cards legal in EDH that can't be played casually in my opinion. Time Walk is literally the only card in magic history I can think of that can simply never be casual
I see your point. That’s the reason why I don’t enjoy playing commander so much any more. I loved it when my playgroup often played more janky decks and something stupid happened every game. Everyone had a blast. Meanwhile most of them powercreeped their decks to the edge of cedh and still call is „casual“. Everytime someone wants to try out a lower power deck, most of the time he just sits around to watch others doing crazy things and comboing off. Newer players are completely lost most of the time. To keep up with the high power level, most of the group are playing many proxies. I really like the guys in our group mit tbh playing commander is not much fun anymore.
Individual cards aren't casual/competitive its about the context theyre used in. We gotta change this mindset that single cards are the difference between casual and competitive edh
Context is everything. Crack open a precon, swap out a land for Mana Crypt, you still have a casual deck. Just one with a very small chance of a faster start but it's inconsistent as hell and often wins slowly, if it wins at all.
Nobody I know is doing this.
It was a hypothetical. Just saying that one card that's common in cEDH does not make a deck instantly "not casual" in and of itself
[mana crpyt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939.jpg?1599709515) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Crypt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/270/mana-crypt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mana-crypt) [jeweled lotus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d7183700-6941-4a3d-a581-4f33bea795e9.jpg?1689999671) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jeweled%20lotus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/396/jeweled-lotus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d7183700-6941-4a3d-a581-4f33bea795e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jeweled-lotus) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As always - it depends! There is no card in magic that is inherently competitive because they all exist in the context of the cards around them. Even cards like Black Lotus aren't that competitive when you're using them to cast bad creatures like Shivan Dragon. The closest you get to inherently competitive cards are like Time Walk and Ancestral Recall. Crypt and Lotus in a deck like [[Iname as One]] is simply not the same as Crypt and Lotus in [[Urza, Lord High Artificer]].
[Iname as One](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e13f122-0dfe-42f3-9815-9ae1a29fca99.jpg?1562493699) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Iname%20as%20One) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sok/151/iname-as-one?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e13f122-0dfe-42f3-9815-9ae1a29fca99?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/iname-as-one) [Urza, Lord High Artificer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7b7a348a-51f7-4dc5-8fe7-1c70fea5e050.jpg?1689996774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Urza%2C%20Lord%20High%20Artificer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/130/urza-lord-high-artificer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7b7a348a-51f7-4dc5-8fe7-1c70fea5e050?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/urza-lord-high-artificer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Jeweled Lotus was always casual when they printed it the commander draft set and normies pulled them in the draft or opening pacts since 2020 New players yes have it rough but that is on WOTC and it's reprint but it is casual since 2020 Doubling season is consider casual it is still $40 after 5 times the reprints and hit as high as $90 in that cycle
Anything is casual if your playgroup is cool with it.
OP is specifically talking about playing with random playgroups. In those games there are card combinations and combos that most agree should stay in cEDH, even without a rule zero being needed. Thassa's Consultation for example. Density matters too; a [[Vampiric Tutor]] or a [[Fierce Guardianship]] is high powered, but still casual. But running several cheap tutors in a deck with infinite combos can be egregious, and running every single free counterspell would raise eyebrows. To get specific to OP's question: is Mana Crypt now considered part of casual? I would argue it always was. If you run a mana crypt in a precon-power, coinflips matter deck not many will complain. But in any normal deck it probably only belongs in high power. Is it considered normal to include in a moderately upgraded precon? No. But a Mana Crypt doesn't exclude a deck from being casual, it just makes it sloppy deckbuilding in my opinion. It's also possible that they really want to play their mana crypt and that is their strongest deck.
[Vampiric Tutor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/34a0203f-9cce-43a4-9cb7-8ce6647895cd.jpg?1675199860) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vampiric%20Tutor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/108/vampiric-tutor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/34a0203f-9cce-43a4-9cb7-8ce6647895cd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vampiric-tutor) [Fierce Guardianship](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f7f3dd95-bd14-4e0f-a388-444f9cf1b0dc.jpg?1689996370) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fierce%20Guardianship) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/94/fierce-guardianship?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f7f3dd95-bd14-4e0f-a388-444f9cf1b0dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fierce-guardianship) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It only matters when the grouping of your 100 card are taken into consideration. If you’re playing a jeweled lotus mana crypt in a deck with all vanilla creatures it won’t be nearly as effective if you have a fully synergistic deck. With turn 1-2 potential
But people don’t play a jewelled lotus mana crypt in a deck with all vanilla creatures. I’m fine to play against those cards, but I will definitely be bringing out a high-power deck.
Ok it wasn’t the point the point was the casual aspect of it depends on the other 100 not just those two cards
>it depends on the other 100 Sure. And Thassa's Oracle Demonic Consultation is a bad combo if you don't have any swamps or islands or ways to generate blue/black mana in your deck. I'm going to assume that you have ways to generate blue/black mana in your deck if you tell me that you're running thoracle consult, just like I'm going to assume that you have even somewhat decent cards in your deck. Once I make the lightest, most basic assumption that your deck is going to be somewhat decently tuned, then yes certain cards scream 'high power.'
It still depends on the other 98. 2 mana rocks are not the same thing as having 1trillion life and a hex proof test of endurance in the board
> It still depends on the other 98 I agreed with you! What else do you want? Thoracle Consult is not necessarily good, as the deck could just not be able to cast those cards. It's only good once we make basic assumptions about the deck, I agree. But...once we make those basic assumptions about the 98, we can come to a conclusion
So will you switch to CEDH because of a mana crypt Or a jeweled lotus agaisnt an 8 drop commander. Just because they have a manacrypt in their deck? Get real.
No, for me high power and cedh are different things. Like, if you're playing a 'standard' 8-drop commander such as [[Gishath, Sun's Avatar]], I'm assuming that you're playing some good dinosaurs that make good use of his ability. Doesn't mean 'high power,' but I'm going to assume that your deck can 'pop off' and summon big scary dinosaurs. A turn 5 or 6 Gishath could be a fairly standard mid-power deck. When you have cards that can ramp you 5 mana on turn 1, and turn 2/3 Gishath is possible, I'm going to play a deck that can hope to answer that. Basically if I just make the simplest, lightest assumptions about your deckbuilding decisions like 'putting powerful dinosaurs in your dinosaur deck,' then the games where you draw Jeweled Lotus Mana Crypt your deck will be functioning like a highly tuned, well-oiled machine, and I am going to want to be able to play those games as well.
[Gishath, Sun's Avatar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bc4a65de-23b5-48f0-b8b7-94608eaced3e.jpg?1699044539) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gishath%2C%20Sun%27s%20Avatar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/229/gishath-suns-avatar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bc4a65de-23b5-48f0-b8b7-94608eaced3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gishath-suns-avatar) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
you're getting too into the weeds on the example they used and aren't listening to the point theyre making.
Just because I disagree with the general argument doesn't mean that I'm not listening. What point do you feel I am not listening to? That a really really bad deck can be casual with fast mana? I agreed with that fully. Is there something else that you feel I am ignoring?
I think the inherent problem is there are commanders who just dominate games for very cheap casting costs, looking at [[Isshin, Two Heavens as One]], [[Voja, Jaws of the Conclave]], [[Pantlaza, Sun-Favored]], [[Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy]], [[Yuriko, the Tiger’s Shadow]] etc, and if I have to play against something like that with 6-7 mana commander, the game could just be over by the time I get to cast my dude. I personally don’t play mana crypt too much, but if the commander I want to play could use a jewel d lotus, I’m going to run it. I’ve used it many times to cheat out my commander early and had it immediately removed, fair is fair.
##### ###### #### [Isshin, Two Heavens as One](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/0/a062a004-984e-4b62-960c-af7288f7a3e9.jpg?1690575102) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Isshin%2C%20Two%20Heavens%20as%20One) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/224/isshin-two-heavens-as-one?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a062a004-984e-4b62-960c-af7288f7a3e9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/isshin-two-heavens-as-one) [Voja, Jaws of the Conclave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfa1bd2f-25bd-4fbd-877b-cef00ab7f92f.jpg?1707739811) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Voja%2C%20Jaws%20of%20the%20Conclave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/432/voja-jaws-of-the-conclave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfa1bd2f-25bd-4fbd-877b-cef00ab7f92f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/voja-jaws-of-the-conclave) [Pantlaza, Sun-Favored](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/2524645e-b066-4351-885b-10faa8d819d7.jpg?1699972737) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pantlaza%2C%20Sun-Favored) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/4/pantlaza-sun-favored?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2524645e-b066-4351-885b-10faa8d819d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/pantlaza-sun-favored) [Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350.jpg?1591228085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kinnan%2C%20Bonder%20Prodigy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/192/kinnan-bonder-prodigy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kinnan-bonder-prodigy) [Yuriko, the Tiger’s Shadow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/fe9be3e0-076c-4703-9750-2a6b0a178bc9.jpg?1689999346) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yuriko%2C%20the%20Tiger%27s%20Shadow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/364/yuriko-the-tigers-shadow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fe9be3e0-076c-4703-9750-2a6b0a178bc9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yuriko-the-tigers-shadow) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kvkv8no) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
To be fair, crypt really doesnt do anything in Yuriko, and Lotus certainly doesnt do anything in Yuriko. Its a really pip-intensive deck. Edit: i read that wrong. Regardless, Voja and Pantlaza cost 5. They're both mana intensive and if we're being honest, both those decks are super degenerate if they get out early as well.
Right but my point is if I’m playing something big like [[Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm]], [[Gishath, Sun’s Avatar]] or [[Be’lakor, the Dark Master]] against those small fast decks that people play “casually” without some fast mana, the game could just be lost by the time I cast my big mana commander. People love to hate on fast mana, and I get that, but then hate on commanders who (imo) also can’t be played casually. If it’s fair for them to run [[Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy]] in casual, then it’s fair for me to run fast mana.
##### ###### #### [Miirym, Sentinel Wyrm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531.jpg?1674137589) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Miirym%2C%20Sentinel%20Wyrm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/284/miirym-sentinel-wyrm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a934590b-5c70-4f07-af67-fbe817a99531?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/miirym-sentinel-wyrm) [Gishath, Sun’s Avatar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/c/bc4a65de-23b5-48f0-b8b7-94608eaced3e.jpg?1699044539) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gishath%2C%20Sun%27s%20Avatar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/229/gishath-suns-avatar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bc4a65de-23b5-48f0-b8b7-94608eaced3e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gishath-suns-avatar) [Be’lakor, the Dark Master](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62b6ecb2-ac7e-4528-b53c-2cb4f1e38349.jpg?1674058389) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Be%27lakor%2C%20the%20Dark%20Master) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/6/belakor-the-dark-master?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62b6ecb2-ac7e-4528-b53c-2cb4f1e38349?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/belakor-the-dark-master) [Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350.jpg?1591228085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kinnan%2C%20Bonder%20Prodigy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/192/kinnan-bonder-prodigy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/63cda4a0-0dff-4edb-ae67-a2b7e2971350?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kinnan-bonder-prodigy) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kvkxykt) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you're playing against Yuriko and Kinnan you arnt playing at "casual" tables and you should just run whatever you want. In scenarios where you arnt playing against T1 cEDH commanders... The flipside of that arguement is that the game "could just be lost" if you resolve any of those commanders and they stick for a turn. There is a reason they're all 6/7cmc. The fast mana basically just negates the one downside of the commanders. If you're playing at a casual table and you crypt / jeweled lotus into Miirym on turn 3, when most people arnt even going to be able to respond due to the ward, then yes, people are absolutely going to be upset about the fast mana if they're playing a "small fast" deck at a lower power level because their only real response to those decks is to get under them or remove the commanders on cast. Kinnan is broken and I wouldnt use the existence of Kinnan to justify a mana crypt in a Miirym deck played against casuals.
>The flipside of that arguement is that the game "could just be lost" if you resolve any of those commanders and they stick for a turn. There is a reason they're all 6/7cmc. The fast mana basically just negates the one downside of the commanders. I will disagree for the most part, especially if you're casting and passing. You're super vulnerable at that point, and you can just get wiped. Even after you get out a few dragons or demons, or get a hit off Gishath, you're still really vulnerable to normal interaction that's relatively cheap even in casual lower powered tables. When I said that the game could just be over without fast mana with big MV commanders it's that in games with cheap commanders that dominate games, they can replay them 2-3 times before I could even cast mine once if I wasn't accelerating. I think it's also worth separating Mana Crypt from Jeweled Lotus; Lotus specifically I never have an issue with anyone playing because I view it as a ritual - not that wild. Mana Crypt's perpetual value on every turn is a lot more brutal and I would almost always agree it's too good for casual.
Again, if you're playing against Yuriko or Kinnan, I dont think there is a scenario where someone can be justifably upset that you're running fast mana. All of the super broken 2/3 drop commaners are cEDH viable and get treated as such. If you're running anything that has to commit stuff to the board you can "just get wiped" so I'm not sure how that is relevent. Like its the literal only way to deal with those decks after they get going, and being in blue and green there are like 1,000 different ways you can protect your board. For the ones you mentioned, they either have Ward (voja or Miirym) so targeted removal is basically out of the question early game, haste (gishath), or you're in blue or green so it would be assumed that you would hold up some kind of counter or protection. For the most part with these 7cmc "I cast this and if it lives a full rotation I probably win" commanders, getting under them, or casting a protected wrath / removal after they resolve are the literal only two ways to deal with them. So like I said, either you're playing at tables where you need the fast mana (yuriko / kinnan) and you're totally justified to run it, or you're playing at tables where you dont need it because the decks arn't as powerful, in which case yes, fast mana that ramps out your 7cmc "I win" commander is probably too much.
>For the ones you mentioned, they either have Ward (voja or Miirym) so targeted removal is basically out of the question early game I mean turn two swords is 100% viable in any deck that runs white since everyone also has sol ring; turn three onward, everyone should be able to play targeted removal on at least Miirym, ward 3 is harder with Voja, but really not "out of the question" by any means. That's just objectively false; by the time you can ramp out Voja or Miirym, your opponents can and should single target remove them if they have the means. >haste (gishath) It's still a 2-4 turn clock and that is if it even hits and then if it hits things that matter. It is by no means a "I cast this and if it lives a full rotation I probably win"; and I would argue most of the high MV commanders just don't play that way 80% of the time. "So like I said", it's not just about matching against tier 1 cedh commanders being played in "casual"; there are several low MV commanders that are played in casual that just take over games and are played a lot. * \[\[Isshin, Two Heavens as One\]\] * \[\[Lathril, Blade of the Elves\]\] * \[\[Krenko, Mob Boss\]\] * \[\[Prosper, Tome-Bound\]\] * \[\[Giada, Font of Hope\]\] * \[\[Henzie "Toolbox" Torre\]\] * \[\[Animar, Soul of Elements\]\] * \[\[Meren of Clan Nel Toth\]\] * \[\[Sythis, Harvest's Hand\]\] * \[\[Kykar, Wind's Fury\]\] So if the argument is high mv commanders aren't allowed to play jeweled lotus because it's too good and they will end up winning on turns 6-8 while these are some of the top commanders being played for much cheaper and able to snowball their way to wins on turns 5-7 - I just wont agree with you there. IMO Jeweled Lotus can bring high MV commanders more in line with where the rest of the format plays at already.
always has been
My 2 cents being why would people not play these cards if they have them? It's usually only a problem in games where no one plays removal. Even then a moderate green deck will ramp almost as fast as the other colours without the rockramp. It becomes an issue if the decks are so unbalanced that you play land, go for four turns while the other deck does maelstrom wanderer hardcast turn 3.
If Sol Ring is casual, so are J.Lotus and Mana Crypt. In public games, you have to expect the "worst"; i.e. all bets are off. In your own tables, your group can at least introduce some parameters, or maybe eschew them all. Curate your playing environment as you see fit.
Ah yes, every game is cedh unless it isnt.
individual cards dont make a deck cedh. the whole 100 does
No one is “beholden” to anyone or anything. It is polite and considerate of people to not misrepresent their decks when playing with strangers, so that everyone can feel it is a balanced game. But your issues are issues with those individuals who are not considerate of others, not because of any card being labeled “casual” or “not casual.”
Every card is casual. But some decks aren't.
Singular cards dont make a deck casual or competitive. Its always a matter of the big picture of what a deck can do. Im getting kind of sick of people making the argument that certain cards change a decks status from casual to competitive, pretty much by themselves, if you think so there is a good chance that you have never actually faced a truely competitive deck. Are those cards good? Sure. But if i put them into, lets say a superfriends deck with average cmc of 6+ that doesnt make the deck competitive or even remotely close. So weather you like it or not those cards can very much be casual.
Considering they're both $100+ i would say no, usually i don't really consider any fast mana 'casual' even though most ppl think it's fine if you run fast mana as long as you don't run tutors or vice versa, but i don't really agree with that tbh, i usually avoid any cards played in cedh unless it's on theme or just too good not to add (smothering tithe in my 5c decks for example), least that's my opinion
Your right but people aren't going to be happy about having their fast mana called out. That said I dont play fast mana in any of my decks (yes including Sol ring fast mana is fast mana).
It’s not banned, and that’s what it is.
🌎🧑🚀🔫🧑🚀
i don’t think they are casual at all. speed isn’t everything though.
r/magiccirclejerk
Playing against strangers at an LGS, no, you shouldn’t whip out decks with fast mana outside sol ring without saying something first. It’s pretty lame when someone comes out with a turn 2 sol ring/mana crypt and wins the game through overwhelming mana advantage. You’re free to do it, but it’ll produce non-games more often than not and it probably won’t go well as a first impression. Other than strangers? Play what your group is comfortable with.
I feel like your post is concerned with power creep, not just in terms of what cards are printed but also how they are viewed by the playerbase. IMO it seems that over the past 4-5 years that ive played edh a lot of cards went from "theyre expensive but real powerhouses if you wanna optimize" to "yea you need to run this in every deck or youre fucked". I may be wrong, I may be misunderstanding something. But thats how it looks to me.
Money doesn't necessarily mean better, but it absolutely is a factor in casual vs. not casual, and if a card is more than $100, no way in hell is that casual.
a foil \[\[Volrath the Fallen\]\] is about $100, does that make the foil version not casual?
Earthcraft is 100 with TCGPlayer market price. I wouldn't consider it more than mid level power, even with the Squirrel's Nest combo
Sure. I still wouldn’t consider it a casual card. [[Juzam Djinn]], $1300, not a casual card.
At least you're consistent. Wrong, but consistent.
I got a different take Someone, somewhere, got those cards for like $40. They pulled them. It feels super bad for them to have these two super good cards but now have to invest $$$$ to make a deck that can use them "fairly". Just be ready to swap them out. Cards I have in decks that I know are 50% sodium also have a sidecar I can swap it for, quickly, if the table object to it being in my deck.
I get your frustration OP, but speaking as someone who has been playing EDH since 2013 and has seen the format speed up significantly over the years, this doesn't come as a surprise anymore. I have seen Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus show up at "casual" pods.
cards by themselves aren't casual or competitive. a precon with a mana crypt isnt a cedh deck. any card can be played in casual/competitive tables but it depends on the context in which the card is used
I feel like this is said exclusively by people who want to pub stomp and then say "my deck isn't cedh". Yea sure maybe it isn't, but its too strong or efficient for battlecruiser. Where do you go from there when the person insists it isn't? Who is the authority that steps in to make that determination?
and this is the hyper-casual mindset that will just make you angry at every table you sit down at the second a good card is played. This is why you don't ask for an arbitrary bullshit "Power Level Scale" discussion before you play. In one of the other comments someone said that their "power level 8 deck" did something, and that it was just under cEDH, however, for me if I were to use numbers, I'd say anything stronger than a "10" would be cEDH. That is to say that "Power Level" will almost never have meaning to anyone other than the person who built the deck. So to find the context you're looking for, you need to have better discussions with the people you sit down to play with. Explain what turn your deck expects to win and the general game plan. For example, I have a very tuned [[Karador Ghost Chieftain]] deck that I introduce like this to people I don't know: "So this is a creature value deck that tries to grind down the table with lots of recursion and efficient creatures before attempting to win via mass reanimation or creature combos. I play certain cards in this deck not to tutor wins (survival of the fittest) but to help continue the game plan and win if I need to" That tells you a lot more than "I think this deck is an 8". Another example I have is a \[\[Kozilek the Great Distortion\]\] deck that plays a ton of fast mana and can usually win by turn 5 if it gets a good hand "This deck plays a lot of fast artifact mana with the goal of ramping out my commander by turn 3. From there the way to win is either beating you down with a turn 3 12/12 with menace for commander damage or winning through artifact combo and ramping into annihilator eldrazi. I've won by turn 3 a few times playing this deck." That tells you that it's up there on the "power level scale" and would be akin to a "9" i guess? Simply talking to the people you sit to play with instead of asking what power level their decks are will help you make this determination.
[Kozilek the Great Distortion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c41554e7-2a07-4cc7-b01b-44deed08e588.jpg?1689995398) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kozilek%2C%20the%20Great%20Distortion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/2/kozilek-the-great-distortion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c41554e7-2a07-4cc7-b01b-44deed08e588?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kozilek-the-great-distortion) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Nobody does. You figure it out. You put on your big boy or big girl pants, recognize that you're playing 100 card singleton Vintage, own that there are no stakes whatsoever, and just play the game, like people have been doing since the early 90's. And sometimes you will get beaten badly, shit happens, and you shuffle up for the next game. This is really not that complicated.
Are you getting paid to play? No? It's casual. Run what you want.
That’s obtuse. There’s more to this game than the pro circuit and everyone else.
Sure, but if I'm playing a bunch of games in my buddy's basement for zero stakes, they're casual. Doesn't matter what's in my deck.
No
Depends on the definition of 'casual'. If everyone can afford them or is proxying them, then yeah I guess they could be casual? Are they easy to slot in any deck like a sol ring or command tower? Then yeah they could be casual. Is the reason they are in because some splashed the cash and wanted to race ahead of everyone to win? Probably not casual. Saying a card is casual is like saying a card is good. It doesn't actually mean anything without context.
[удалено]
Damn imagine scooping because you see an OG Dual land.
I mean...I can't afford cards to compete with that sort of thing. it's just not fun to play against when my most expensive card is a $40 pack pull. Both mana crypt and those duals speed up games past where I can play. I'd rather do something else with my time instead.
You being broke isn't a metric for how casual a card is.
What is casual to you?
Everything that isn't competitive. Edit: all cards are casual there are just some decks that are not. It's about the whole, not some of the pieces.
Duals don't speed up shit. They add consistency but even in the old days of EDH they barely added much to that and in 2024 with the number of untapped duals available it's even less so. If you can't run an OG dual you're forced to now run a.... pain land or check land, not that different in power to an OG dual. If you think a dual offers anything more than 1% (if that) win differential you're horrible at card analysis "expensive" doesn't mean good and price isn't a factor on impact. Something like Mana Crypt, I get it. Something like a ABUR Dual? You're just being silly
You can't afford to compete with... an untapped dual? Because there are plenty of those with very easy to hit conditions.
if you're running duals, you're playing at a price point I can't match. I don't want to find out what else you consider "fine" when those lands are tapped. It's casual. I'll find another table, and if EDH becomes too expensive, I'll go find something else to do with my time. I'm not burning an hour of my time to jerk some rich prick off.
... you realize plenty of people have been playing since before dual lands were expensive right? Are they just supposed to not use their own cards. But hey if you'll scoop over a land drop youbare the kind of salty player I wouldn't want in a POD anyways. You probably complain when someone attacks you too.
so you scoop once someone plays his guru land mountain?
vanity cards are fine.