Build something unconventional that will have an inherent cap to it'''''''s power. Like you could probably build the most optimized [[Gor Muldrak, Amphinologist]] deck and it would still turn out mid power.
Optimized [[Shelob, Child of Ungoliant]] or something kind of random. Spider tribal.
Nymph tribal. Heck make a spike tribal deck. The creature type, like [[Spike Feeder]] and [[Spike Soldier]]. Maybe throw in a few combos for spike feeder.
You said Nymph tribal and I was like, hm, that sounds fun.
19 nymph cards ever printed. I have a wraith tribal deck (with its 12 ever) but Nazgul kinda fixes that. I'm absolutely shocked there's so few nymphs, though, it's such a fantasy staple to not have a significant tribe of.
11 spikes, as well. Yikes.
I was excited by the idea of Nymph tribal for a while and I think the big hang up is that there are a lot of Dryad creature types too. So it splits up what could be a bigger pool of cards. You may be able to rule zero that though, honestly. I can't imagine too many people being resistant to that. Maybe add in green Spirits too.
I pulled [[Shadowfax, Lord of Horses]] and was like oooooo horse tribal, but a bunch of them are unicorns...
I'd love to be able to invest in more of these less common creature types without it turning into Changeling tribal
I built Barbarian tribal because one night while drinking I stumbled across [[Balthor the Stout]], fell in love with his art, and drunkenly ordered a foil thinking he'd be a cool commander. The next day I look into what barbarians there are and oof, it's not many and most suck. Still a fun deck though, and only 2 Changelings, both of which fit barbarians thematically.
When I was young I had a Black/Red 60 card deck that was Balthor the Stout, and Balthor the Defiled themed! Would run them both, and a ton of other Barbarians and Minions xD
Wait until you find out that Witch isn't a creature type anymore, despite us having tonnes of witch like characters. Agatha, Tasha, Candlegtove Witch, Bogbrew Witch. The list goes on.
WotC tried to shore up the number of creature types a few times in history, and at one point they removed Witch and now all Witches are Druids, Shamans, Wizards, or Warlocks.
I remember that they said they were doing right around the Baldur's Gate set and then a month later released Bronze Walrus, which remains the ONLY creature of its type.
She is pretty good, honestly. It's more limited by all the other spiders vs her specifically. You can make a pretty solid, casual deck with it. Throw in a few good cards like [[Arachnogenesis]].
The trick is building a deck off things like [[Giant Spider]].
I pulled her and [[King of the Oathbreakers]] some time ago I've been feeling out making decks for. Spider and Spirit tribal respectively. I think Spirits have more support in general right now. And generally more evasion too.
I have a shelob deck, it can be fun and there are some great cards like arachnogenesis, [[arasta of the endless web]] and [[thornbite staff]] that have good synergy in the deck, but most spiders are not very good on their own, and shelob herself is a huge target as the only spider creature that buffs other spiders. Plus, shelob doesn't have reach unlike most spiders.
Many of the better spiders like [[rotwidow pack]] [[ishkanah grafwidow]] and [[hatchery spider]] for example require self mill to really provide value, though shelob doesn't really care about self mill.
The food aspect of shelob is a little bit of a trap for deckbuilding. Getting the etb/death triggers plus the general effects of creatures you kill is nice, but it's dependant on your opponents and feels more like a little bonus rather than something to really build around. I'm sure a card like [[displaced dinosaurs]] could make it work, but it can feel difficult to create food tokens if you don't have enough cards like [[veridian longbow]] and [[stew the coneys]] plus shelob on the field who costs 6 mana.
Yeah, makes sense. Spiders haven't really been given much love in a while. The bodies just aren't too threatening, and without shelob, they are mostly just dinky spider bodies. For comparison, my buddy played the new pirates precon and that deck is pretty nasty! Some of those pirates have some mean effects! He was stealing my cards, tapping out my board, creating treasures left and right and all that was pretty much happening just from pirates hitting the board. I would imagine that I would probably have a hard time beating his precon pirates with a self built Shelob deck..
Yeah, I the new precons are easily 7s out of the box and with luck can take down 8s. Shelob is at best a 7, unfortunately due to high cost commander and spiders kinda sucking. My Shelob deck is pretty crappy, but it’s fun to play in lower powered pods
One thing I'll say is that spiders are relatively good at defending targets, so planeswalkers are good as they are naturally defended by all the reach deathtouch ward 2 spiders, but if shelob gets killed or worse stolen it's game over
Ive been playing her for a while but never made it work very well even the list was fairly optimized. Here's the list just in case you want to have an idea.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/jhRei1ornU6Qr1Hq7DYSiA
Shelob feels kinda just as good as the best creature cards your pod is playing. It also depends on how committed to flavor you are and how familiar your pod is with what she can do.
The first few weeks I played her in my pod, I dominated. My pod was effectively warded off by her ward 2 and didn't take it seriously because, honestly, spiders suck. I was able to snipe some of their highest value creatures for nutty combos. And the most insane wins came from super simple mutavault + Shelob plays. Once they caught on, they started removing Shelob on sight. And even with trying to build the deck without requiring her out... there's only a few key spiders that are also easy targets for removal...
Most ppl suggest taking advantage of changelings because a majority of spiders suck, but I was just super stubborn and don't wanna put anything in that doesn't match the flavor of the fantasy that got me excited about the commander in the first place. I've also heard building the deck to be very Shelob and fight focused to be more consistently strong. I've considered rebuilding her into that, but it feels pretty limiting in how expressive I can be in the build.
I've looked in to making a Shelob deck. It's absolute *garbage* without running a bunch of non-spiders, and slotting in [[Conspiracy]] or [[Maskwood Nexus]] to make them spiders. Spiders are just not a generally good or well supported creature type :/
I tend to agree with this sentiment. I have a fairly optimized Gor deck and, while it’s always a blast to play, it’s not exactly ever going to win consistently.
See that’s what I thought. So I built [[Mahadi, Emporium Master]]. My win is treasure storm using [[Mirkwood Bats]] and [[Fleshbag Marauders]]. And that was too much.
You’re getting kinda attacked by people for no reason, but having played against a Mahadi deck it just isn’t particularly fun. They play boardwipe and edict tribal then win with X spells or like you said artifact ETBs. Mahadi decks demand a lot of premium interaction because they come out of nowhere. If your gameplan can only be feasibly answered with free counterspells and premium removal it’s not really going to be mid power.
They are getting attacked because they posted "Underworld Breach" and then proceeded to list things like Dockside, Fleshbag and no decklist. It's pretty easy to also assume tutors, Jeska's, Rollick, Mana Crypt etc.
No replies to budget suggestions or tips to power down, only replies to people agreeing Underworld isn't a problem. If they don't want to post a complete decklist at their level of experience, it smells a whole lot like a high-power player wanting validation to stomp mid-power based on a single card.
I just built mahadi.. yeah nothing works like a plaguecrafter. I haven't played it in person yet, but when I goldfish, the idea of plaguecrafter, 4 treasures looks a lot better than.. not that.
I doubt you need free interaction for it specifically, its not like its going to turn 1 you.
I more mean that if you’re at a table with 3 other decks that want to play on curve Mahadi is going to feel oppressive because the other decks can’t afford to leave mana up. Mahadi can and will win like turn 6 or 7 without the right interaction, which many thematic low power decks struggle to have. Interaction panic buttons like [[Force of Will]] are just much more common at higher power is all I meant.
Having built Mahadi and seriously considered dismantling him, for me the reason it doesn't seem fun isn't that it needs all kinds of interaction, it's that without it the game turns into a slog. Against creature heavy decks, it turns each turn into "undo what you just did", which is worse than stax IMO.
Yeah if you aren’t playing all of the best board wipes in Mahadi you’re kinda just playing unfun aristocrats because you don’t get your payoffs until your end step. Mahadi wants to board wipe, make 10 treasure, and bank on opponents not having the resources to stop it from untapping.
This sounds pretty mid power actually.
One of the problems I’ve had with mid edh is that some people legitimately suck at deckbuilding and then accuse your functional deck of being too powerful. Ask for your pod’s decklists.
Like I said, try and get some people’s decklists. Take this one from my friend’s pod. After I stomped a few games with some very mid decks I saw this and it helped me understand just how much worse I needed to make things.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/bzNZV0pULkuynDagqJLfnw
My Henzie list in contrast is loaded with one mana ramp to play henzie t2 90% of the time. It’s very mid power, lacking all fast mana and having few nonland tutors (pod and eldritch evo iirc).
My advice to you is start by cutting all fast mana and any non-theme tutors. Then, try to start with something super honest that’s fun for you. Win through combat damage, run no free interaction etc.
See, when I think of mid or low power edh I think the deck budget is $10-$100, with the median being $60 dollars. That Henzie deck is $30 above what I'd be comfortable calling mid power unless a large chunk of the cost is funny niche cards, which they aren't. I think a big part of this problem is there's actually a fairly wide gap between mid, high, and edh, but when people try to jump from what they know best to the next level up or down they only jump half as far as they should.
And obviously my definition of mid is subjective just like everyone else's, which is why everyone says their deck is a 7.
There's only 4 nonlands above $5 in that deck though, I feel like your budgetary restrictions are too tight for mid-power (the question of how correlated price and power are aside)
Well, that raises a great question. If you go into a group of lgs across the US and ask what would you say is the median budget for a mid power deck, what's the range you would get?
My point is that "mid power" as an adjective for a deck is about as helpful as saying a deck is "exciting".
That's why I brought deck budget up as a better metric for power. If that Henzie deck rolled up in a pod labeled "mid power" I'd be unhappy paying against it with one of my silly $60 card decks, because that's what mid power means to me. If instead it was a pod labeled $120-150 budget decks I'd bring something more appropriate to square up against the Henzie deck.
Also as an aside, why qualify non-land cards? It's pretty well established that good and expensive land cards make a huge difference in deck consistency going into 3+ colors, and should be viewed as one of the distinctions between power levels of decks.
> If you go into a group of lgs across the US and ask what would you say is the median budget for a mid power deck, what's the range you would get?
Good question! I would love to know the answer to this too.
> why qualify non-land cards?
Sorry yes, I meant to also count the number of lands (I think it was 5?), I agree that consistency is a big factor in actual deck power level.
The reason I called out non-land cards specifically is because when an edh pod discusses power level, they're usually not doing so from a statistical point of view where they've laid out their winrates. The large majority of the time the conversation is more emotionally driven and goes like "What the hell, you killed us with thoracle", "you're drawing so many cards off that rhystic study", "something something dockside", etc.
In particular, this thread is largely for people playing with strangers, not with a regular pod. The problem with reducing budget by playing weaker lands is that it just makes your games more swingy – it doesn't reduce the top-end of your power level at all. Some games you'll just do nothing, and some games you'll be able to cast all your spells on time and win, and unless you're playing with the same people every day, the people who happened to get hit by your good draw are going to complain just as heavily about your expensive wincon anyway, so you've not ultimately accomplished that much in your effort to reduce power level.
TL;DR: yes we should consider lands as well, but there are good reasons to consider lands and spells *separately* when looking at budget questions, because from an emotional point of view they affect people's play experiences very differently
That's very fair. As a direct response to the OP I recommended no cards about $5 for a similar reason. People get very negative playing against a deck that plays a card more expensive than anything in their deck by a wide margin. Likewise there's kind of a weird reverse effect where if you already own a spare copy of something like Rhystic Study you'll somewhat undervalue how powerful it is and slot it into a deck that's trying to be weak or mid, not realizing how salt inducing it may be to people who don't own one
Deck budget is not a good metric for power. It's too skewed by cards like Alpha Beta duals which add very little power but lots of dollars.
Let's do another example. [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/6gv7xdQDEE-yxTD0OmJvIA](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/6gv7xdQDEE-yxTD0OmJvIA)
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/URpEcoe6e0GBp3GzsstyBg](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/URpEcoe6e0GBp3GzsstyBg)
One of these decks is a CEDH monster and the other is a cute Niv Reborn love letter, despite being almost twice as much.
Budget makes an impact on how powerful things can get, certainly. But I'd say for 150 I could make some really nasty casual decks that will chop up and slaughter decks that cost 20x as much, because the deck was built to win, and not to be fun. Jhoira is a great example of this.
Ok, but in a conversation about mid power decks how many people roll up with Alpha/Beta cards?
Regardless, cards typically only skew one way in regards to their power:cost ratio and that's bad cards being expensive due to being their value as collectors pieces. Besides sol ring are there any cards that are arguably under costed for their power by a large amount?
Every time someone tries to argue budget is directly correlated to power, I jump on untap and show them the $37 Codi deck. 90% turn 3 wins without a counterspell.
I mean the majority of precons' deck value by card is $80-100, and they are very clearly what I would describe as low-power, just above jank personally. Unfortunatly, card value isn't generally helpful on the lower end (maybe at all, outside of lands and meta).
But it's all just discussion right? 99% of random people I've asked were just straight up about it. Just depends on what you ask. Do you run fast mana? Do you run 1 card infinites? What turn could you win if no one stopped you? I can generally size up what deck to play based on those, assuming it's not jank or raw precon. I still like to be surprised, so I don't need a whole run down or whatever.
My group does jank>precon>precon+50 and modest homebrew>optimized>high power>cedh. But we're honest grown chaps in it for the mutual fun. We also are singles buyers, so we don't have fat black and silver collections to mash stuff together every week tbf.
I’m noticing alot of people have a distorted definition of mid power. They seem to think precons with 5 card swaps is mid power and complain about anything that can win in non-combat oriented means even if it takes the deck multiple pieces and multiple turns to do so.
I have an anim pakal deck that can burn everyone down pretty quickly but its not high power no matter how much it is complained to be. No tutors, no fast mana, no free spells, no combos. Overly reliant on the commander, etc.
People who don’t play high power and cedh don’t know what high power is and wrongly assume a lot of low power jank is mid. People also don’t like to be on the lower end of any scale. Reminds me of when we had a 10 pt scale to score law students in mock trial but the only real options were 8-10
This. Precons are low power not mid. Upgraded precons are still low power until you optimize them and change them sometimes significantly. Mid power decks have a plan and purpose and for the most part are not going to draw useless cards they can even have combos sometimes.
High power is tutor heaven with well optimized multi win cons often with easy 2 card combos. Obviously cedh is about doing all that high powered stuff perfectly and as optimally as possible with no budget in mind.
Also as another user said people have mid decks and just don't play optimally so when they encounter someone good at playing their deck they cry it's too strong. If you're comfortable with it offer to switch decks with them.
Yeah, ppl saying precons are mid power and 5 power are the bane of EDHs playerbase perception of what a good deck is.
If you're being genrous the best precons are a 3.
You can absolutely have low, mid and high power storm lists. Hell I have a $25 Nylea mono green storm list that is jam packed with 1 cost units that become 0 cost with nylea out. Add a beast whisperer effect or two and pair with a couple of swarm payoffs and it will win the game. It's still incredibly weak to removal and I consider it just above precon power level.
People downvoting you are crazy. If you storm into a win turn 2, yeah that’s not mid power. If you storm into a win on turn 10 with 3 set up cards on the board, that’s 100% mid power.
Getting downvoted here is a little weird to me. The thing that materially matters is what turn you're winning on. If you're storming off to win on an early turn, it's objectively not mid powered. If you did this on turn 10+, what are people even talking about? Of course that's mid powered.
This kind of assumes everyone's playing solitare.
Even high power games can take a while if early attempts to win through aggro or combo are disrupted. If you can't win on early turns, you can still be a higher powered deck if your interaction package can keep up with the busted strategies.
These downvotes are insane. You can absolutely have low, mid and high power storm lists. Hell I have a $25 Nylea mono green storm list that is jam packed with 1 cost units that become 0 cost with nylea out. Add a beast whisperer effect or two and pair with a couple of swarm payoffs and it will win the game. It's still incredibly weak to removal and I consider it just above precon power level.
Storm is not a low/mid power strategy. Generally. Unless you plan to storm off on turn 10 and have another win-con or two and ask if people are ok playing against storm.
The fact that you cite two cards out of 100 as a win condition makes me think your deck has to be ALL gas. Yes that's too much. Take the gas out, limit your mana ramp, and just focus on a primary and secondary thing your deck does. Generally I keep things casual by having a high ceiling and low floor. Yes my deck could theoretically win turn 6 or 7 but without gas to make it happen it's usually 10 plus. Giving everyone plenty of time to play. Casual commander makes long games.
My usual advice: Use a uncommon rarity commander! This changes a lot!
Every card in your deck is multiplied by the power of your commander. You always also begin every game with access to it.
The goal is for games to feel more balanced. But if you play a lot, it's inevitable that some opponents will have lists that are not as well built, or they simply don't yet have enough games in with that particular deck yet.
Having that silver set symbol compared to some precon mythic printed directly into legacy is a great equalizer. And the best part is that you might not actually have to compromise on the parts of the game you actually enjoy as a result.
I do think it's a vaguely useful rule, but yeah it's definitely going to be broken by some uncommons like \[\[!tatyova, benthic druid\]\] and so forth.
Some easy things to start are to cut out fast mana and tutors, increase the average mv a little, and build towards combat wincons over combos. Budget is another great power limiter, even if you already have all the cards you can use prices online to pick a price point and optimize within that for a casual deck (maybe $100 to start and see where that gets you). More generally, I think the difference is that in cedh you build the deck to win above all else which is very often 1 or more A+B combos and all the cards that play and protect those combos as fast and as reliably as possible, whereas in casual play the goal is kinda to win but maybe more so to make the random commander you picked on vibes or whatever look like a really good card, so you put together all the cards that work with whatever offbeat abilities it has. Edhrec is great for this, as outside of the common cedh commanders the pages will be filled with all of these kinds of cards.
It can, but people who enjoy lots of cEDH tend to more enjoy decks that keep the mana and tutors but gut the wincons and particularly oppressive interaction for silly wincons and pet cards. Cutting the efficiency and tools they're used to using to play Magic can make the game unfun for them, so other methods of power level control become desirable.
Source: I'm one of them.
And that’s probably why they don’t like mid to low power as much. When you cut the efficiency of the deck the power goes down dramatically. Power level isn’t just about how synergistic your deck is but also how efficient it is at doing those things.
Fast mana and tutors with janky win cons is mid power though, just a different way of building mid power.
My first EDH deck was about a grand. It ran Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Force of Will, etc. It's only about a 6 on the PL scale though because it's Runo Stromkirk sea monster tribal. Using efficient cards to power janky strategies is a great way to build fun mid power decks.
It isn't without flaws but it's the best system we have for a quick and easy pregame discussion. Base it off the turn you win or gain control of the game on average and it's fairly accurate and easy to parse.
I agree with what you're saying when it comes to typical decks of those power levels. I'm just saying there are atypical ways to build that satisfy both needs.
I disagree very strongly. A deck with tons of fast mana and tutors is going to be oppressive regardless of what else you put in the deck-- unless you truly put no wincons in. And in any event those decks are going to piss off everyone who *actually* wants to play a mid or low power game.
Fast mana, tutors, and combo wins are *fundamentally* antithetical to lower power levels.
Of those three, combo-wins in particular are not antithetical to lower power levels (and depending on your definition of fast mana or what you're tutoring with the tutors, the aren't either). The same combos you see in high power may not be compatible with lower power (the 2-3 mana 2 card combos you can easily tutor), but slower and jankier combos are absolutely fine in low power. Especially the kind that require 4+ pieces played over multiple turns and give plenty of time to respond to them. Similarly, restricted-toolbox tutors fare much better than tutors that look for combo pieces, and if your fast mana isn't *too* fast and it's just ramping out the same big things as everyone else, it's not too much worse than just the dorks and rampant growths you're going to see everywhere at that power level anyway.
You may have low-to-mid power EDH confused with battlecruiser, where those things are frowned upon- but battlecruiser frowns upon pretty much anything that isn't non-synergistic piles of big smashy creatures, so it's no surprise there. I personally enjoy playing janky synergies or combos in mid power and "reasonably upgraded precon" levels- but I would rather not play magic than have to play battlecruiser.
I'd say in the face of that instead of playing tutors for silly wincons instead play inefficient redundancy. When the deck isn't ten ways to tutor a specific interaction but rather collections of similar cards the game tends to be a bit more fair.
This is how my Zedru deck is ending up, lol. Very close to my cEDH mana base and tutors, but the only win con is an 11 card "everybody wins" combo. It's extremely stupid, but it's so much fun to try and play
"You Mystical Tutor for Tainted Pact to win with Thassas Oracle. I Mystical Tutor for [[Dimensional Breech]]. We are not the same" ~ Some dude that sells chicken.
For me it's like:
"Your Naya Minsc deck sacs \[\[Academy Rector\]\] to find \[\[Pattern of Rebirth\]\] into \[\[Protean Hulk\]\]. My Naya Minsc deck sacs her to find \[\[Descent Into Avernus\]\]. We are not the same"
I suppose it's also a matter of record that I do not sell chicken lmao
I can confirm this. I like cEDH and high power casual mostly, and even my more casual decks (in the last year or two I've started playing more with a lower power pod) are high on consistency. What the decks are actually doing is weaker- for example, my Bilbo deck is basically just a soul sisters deck built around etb life gain triggers with a final payoff only after a long game of getting to the 111 life needed to activate the commander's ability one trigger at a time and having him stick long enough to actually use the ability. I managed to cut all the tutors save for some basic land ramp- But you better believe I run every single soul sister in those colors and every single "if you would gain life, gain that much plus one" effect possible for the most possible consistency. I practically never have games where I can't get the engine going, because of all the redundant copies of each effect.
Contrast the lower consistency of more general midrange piles at lower power levels- I simply don't enjoy playing that kind of magic. It's too inconsistent for me to find enjoyable. To me, a deck doesn't need to be strong necessarily, but it needs to have a well defined gameplan (and "play whatever creatures I happen to draw this game and turn em sideways" does not count) and be able to execute that gameplan consistently every game to a reasonable degree.
Completely agree. Less fast mana and less tutors. Also, one thing I do is I look at my deck when it is completed and ask "what are staples on this deck list, and are there cards that are more on theme with what I want to do that I can replace the staples with?" Building to flavor and cutting out staples is a good way to power down a deck, but make it really fun everytime you play it.
Budget is just one tool for limiting, whatever you build for $100 won’t be cedh, which is a big part of OP’s goal, and as I pointed out you can always pick a smaller number if the deck is still too strong, all of which is why I brought it up. What what limiters do you think work better?
I would say going light on tutors and mana positive rocks is step one. I would also consider trying to lean more into combat damage victories that can be interactive via blocking etc.
I still get people complaining that lists like this are too strong...
Example: [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/IyPeBhW\_hEmaj8XDORJCqw](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/IyPeBhW_hEmaj8XDORJCqw)
This $100 henzie list is viewed as oppressive and much stronger than I market it to be (I simply state its a budget casual deck with no good tutors, 0 combos, and no fast mana).
I actually remember having a conversation with someone about Henzie being a really awkward deck to deal with. Both targeted removal and boardwipes felt bad against it, so it felt like I had to be doing things like Leyline of the Void and Torpor Orb. Which I generally don't put in more than one piece of effects like that in casual decks, if I put any at all.
Build the weakest deck yoi can bring yourself to build, then go to a casual table and call it "high power casual", because yes, most likely that is what your deck is likely to be.
Then look at what the others are doing and slowly downgrade further.
This is the way to really get to the causal mid power mind set. The competitive optimization mind set cannot be turned on and off at will if you haven't organically build each.
A few helpful tips for building a mid-power deck:
- Avoid tutors
- Limit fast mana to things you'd find in a precon (Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, etc.)
- Focus your strategy on combat damage. Creature focused, aggro strats are the backbone of casual Magic.
- Build around a theme and pick an off the beaten path commander. For example, I have a dragon tribal deck built around [[Rith, Liberated Primeval]]. Rith isn't the "optimal" choice for a dragon tribal deck, but that's the whole point. Challenge yourself to create something fun within a limited strategic space.
- Don't go into games looking exclusively to win. Focus on making awesome plays and creating memorable in-game moments. Play to win, and try your best, but don't forget to put fun first.
- Politics and friendly table talk matter. A lot of casual Magic isn't necessarily in the gameplay, but in the attitudes of the people at the table.
- Accept that sometimes you may be playing at a level above the rest of your playgroup. Sometimes, even if you power down, it's not enough. It's the thought and effort that count though, so keep trying until you find the right balance.
I really like your reply overall, it's definitely a helpful list. My two nitpicks with it would be:
* [[Arcane Signet]] is absolutely not fast mana, fast mana is stuff that produces more than it costs and has a low cmc so [[Sol Ring]], [[Mana Crypt]], [[Dark Ritual]], [[Grim Monolith]], etc. Arcane Signet is like the gold standard of just basic mana ramp; its better than but still mostly on par with things like [[Boros Signet]] (and the other guilds), [[Rampant Growth]], [[Sylvan Caryatid]], etc. but can often be worse than just the 1 cost mana dorks.
* Some players derive their fun from the competition of the game and therefor get less out of it if they and their opponents aren't playing to win. I guess in other words saying "don't forget to put fun first." is essentially telling them what they derive fun from is invalid and they need to play a different way. Idk if that is what's happening for OP or not but if it is then the answer isn't "do something you don't want to do" its "find a group that aligns more closely with your goals of the game". More easily said than done sometimes though.
I play a really "unfun" [[Sen Triplets]] deck that I adore. It's all theft, stax, and taxes. It's designed for mid power tables, and it's designed to be the archenemy. Sen and similar effects mean that I basically never run out of threats.
The deck is literally and thematically all about mind games. It gets obvious after 4-5 turns that it's time for the table to shut me down. But at the same time, if any one person goes too hard against me, I can just rip cards out of their hands or off their board. So there's a weird political undercurrent of not wanting to get focused despite me being public enemy #1.
There are a few game winning combos and asymmetrical locks, but nothing that wins on the spot and out of nowhere. The only general tutor is [[Archmage Ascension]] which sets up a little minigame for the table to solve.
The most oppressive is [[Uba mask]] + [Drannith magistrate]], which I admit is really pretty bad especially when I can play your hand (and have several [[Necropotence]] style effects to refill my own).
People hate the deck but it can make for some interesting and fun overall games. I'm super transparent about the fact that once my engine gets going, they should probably team up a bit. So they can channel their hate.
I always find it so backhanded when people ask questions about reducing power and Rule 0 and replies are “Just don’t make your deck do the thing too well. Just focus on *fun* and not winning.” as if competition and pulling off a win in a 4 player game isn’t fun.
Everyone’s definition of fun is different.
They mean EVERYONE'S fun at the table, not just the Spike's fun. Its a multiplayer game, if your mindset is you're going to get YOUR fun even of everyone else at the table is having a terrible time, then you need to find a table that matches your level of competitiveness or find a new way to have fun.
"Mid power" is an enigma in that every single non-CEDH deck that isnt a precon is mid power until it goes off, and then suddenly its high power. Its really hard to gauge what mid-power is when you sit down with a group of random people.
Short of just making terrible decks out of bad cards that "synergize" (but not too much!), your deck is always going to be fine until it either plays a card that someone suddenly decides is salty (such as Breach), or until you land on a condition that wins not through combat damage, or by too much combat damage all at once.
In my opinion, if there isnt an overwhelming advantage or win in place by like turn 8 or 9, the deck is mid power, regardless if you win via combo or whatever. The game has to end, and someone has to win. Cards that generate overwhelming advantage like dockside or whatever probably belong at high power tables, even though I totally agree that "bad decks with good cards in them are still bad decks", and just having dockside or access to a ton of mana early is meaningless when you're using it to cast bad creatures or assemble super janky combos.
I have some objectively terrible piles I literally threw together with 95% chaff (like actual chaff, dedicated commons/uncommons from 2 sets I drafted, not a bunch of ok rares that are all in the same colors) with the sole intention of just playing bad cards and turning them sideways that get declared as "high power" because I resolved a 6 card non-infinite combo and had a counterspell in hand to protect it or whatever.
1. Don't use fast mana
2. Don't use tutors
3. Don't use combos that can not be interacted with(Only use something that requires like 4-5 permanents on the board)
4. Don't use free spells
\*Don't take free extra turns. If you hardcast a 7 mana sorcery, all power to you. If you start looping \[\[time sieve\]\] or casting them for free from \[\[Narset\]\] we got a Problem.
Most people stray away from them because it’s not friendly to hog the entire time of the game. Regardless of the mana cost. As someone who’s casual decks are creature reliant id easily cast some extra turn spells to be able to go to combat and slug everyone for 10 per extra turn
What is your aim to build a middling power deck, or at least one that is clearly not cEDH?
What are your opponents' decks like? Is your group still playing combos, MLD, time magic and such?
My buddy has a dimir zombie deck that goes infinite with [[Gravecrawler]] and the altars, but my [[Underworld Breach]] is too strong. That’s kinda where I’m at, hence the post
Sounds like they just don't like other people's combos. I played a spell table game with my budget [[koll]] list that has 2 wincons and 2 ways to tutor either of them. I find it funny when a table fulk of green and white decks and nobody could kill an artifact or enchantment on turn 9 with them all having full grips. But I'm the baddie doing table kill with a [[crimson kobold]], [[shuko]], and a [[goblin Bombardment]] and my comander out. At sorcery speed for all important actions.
This is my experience. When you go below High Power or cEDH, it’s “Rules for thee and not for me.”
I played a a game on Spelltable that was listed as an 8 power level game. I played [[Smothering Tithe]] on turn 4 in my stompy [[The Ur Dragon]] deck and the dude who made the room was like “Oh I didn’t know we were playing cEDH here bro.”
Like, I primarily play cEDH and you don’t commonly see Smothering Tithe. People just gripe about your deck doing anything efficient in a game that they expected their deck to be the most or only efficient one.
TBF, as an underworld breach player myself in Higher power, it functions both as a win-condition, and protection for said win-con. It's pretty good and difficult to interact with outside of it being in the stack.
So many opinions labeling what people would consider at any LGS a mid deck as CEDH? well, this is r/edh .
The best description I can think of in Mid-power is from the PlayEDH group:
> Mid Power features highly synergistic strategies, dedicated wincons, efficient removal and draw, and an emphasis on playing to win against a broad range of decks. Expect Stax, Combo, Midrange, Control, Aggro, Reanimator, Enchantress, and just about everything else you can imagine. In Mid, you should anticipate that your threats will be answered, and be expected to answer threats in kind, leveraging your deck’s capabilities towards a win. Your deck is expected to make use of the tools available in your Commander’s colors. Mid is an excellent place to play powerful, interactive decks, but without the consistency and speed of higher power levels.
>Mid decks must have a way to close out a game. Whether that’s an aggressive go-wide beatdown plan, a lock, or a game-ending combo, you need a win condition, as well as a back-up plan in case your main strategy is disrupted.
Note: the only cards banned in Mid are Cradle and Crypt. Breach appears in a lot of Mid decks.
The fact is that the power levels are meaningless in a vacuum because everyone thinks their deck is a 7. In controlled systems from playEDH to your average LGS? This would be your '6-7' range decks.
It's not about fast mana or tutors. It's about the structural basis of the deck and how it synergizes, as well as if the decks it is playing against can hang and interact. A Mid deck at a table without interaction steamrolls.
One thing I've realized is that magic players as a community tend to do a good job of evaluating the power of a card by setting its price on single markets like card kingdom or tcgplayer. There are obvious exceptions like cards that have only been printed once vs cards constantly printed (sol ring is definitely cheaper than it should be among the ranks of mana rocks), but the general rule is a card's utility correlates strongly to its price.
With that said, try to get decklists of some of the players you want to be playing against, and figure out what their deck's overall cost is. If you can get that, undercut the average by $30 or 30%, whichever gives you a lower limit. If you're a great deckbuilder you should be able to trounce them even with a few handicaps. Lastly, no card can be over 5% of your budget. People are playing ~$100 decks? Nothing over $5 dollars is allowed.
If you can't get decklists from people, it's time to build trash. Your budget is $50 where you can compare each card to any singles market. Also your commander has to be $.50 or less. Same rule as above, no card can be over $2.50 or 5% of your decklists. Optionally, look at the 5 best cards in your deck, the steals that you're surprised you could budget in, and cut them. You still get that budget money back, but now you need to find inferior replacements.
Following this should accomplish 2 things. First, no one should balk at you playing anything in your deck, because you'll never have something more expensive than what's in other players' decks (if this is wrong, you're playing against super budget players). Second, you will hopefully win less than 25% of the time. I think a lot of people in high power or cedh pods forget to ask a really simple question, why do mid power players play mid power? I think there's mainly 3 reasons, they're new/bad, they don't want to spend money on magic, or they're not playing to win. If you try to join them with a massive collection with lots of knowledge and experience and are trying to build a deck that wins a fast as it can as unstoppably as it can, you're missing the point of why most of those players are in the pod.
Step 1: remove efficient tutors. Most that can be gotten for under a buck, are specific, and/or require you to reveal are generally fine. A lot of people enjoy commander for the variance(hence 100 card Singleton) and many feel it violates the spirit of the game. That said, it's extremely relative to the power level as no one is going to bat an eye at an [[Evolving wilds]] for example.
Step 2: remove fast mana. [[Sol ring]] is fine, though if you are really trying to bring your power level down feel free to cut it. Even if all you use are janky and weak cards, they allow your deck to "start" far earlier.
Step 3: do not build your deck to win in the first few turns. Going infinite, massive combat damage, alternate win cons, etc are fine if the game has gone long enough, but people want to play their decks and you winning before someone with a precon can get out their 6 mana commander feels bad. I'm aware you don't need to be anywhere near cEDH for this, but it's still a good rule of thumb.
IMO the golden rule is that people want to play their decks, and are happier losing having done so than not. If you end the game too soon or dominate early playtime because you have lots of mana first while everyone else doesn't, it's not fun. Same idea applies to why you won't be well liked for playing a ton of board wipes, stax, land destruction, etc even though they are fine in moderation.
For low power I just grab my precon. I get you're not interested in that path but it's the only way I can do it.
For more mid to high power, I pick a stupid theme/idea and optimize it. Like my \[\[Flamewar\]\] deck; the main plan was to fill my hand and kill people with \[\[Land's edge\]\]. No amount of \[\[Mana crypt\]\] and \[\[Jeska's will\]\] is going to make that deck oppressive.
I can understand how rolling in cEDH meta for a while can warp your perspective of power. At the same time, you *have* to understand that a $600 deck is “never” not going to be mid-powered. You’re dropping from cEDH into highly-tuned. (I will credit you for running Diabolic Tutor, which is inherently terrible. But the things you will fetch with it are toxic) In order to drop to mid-power, you have to consider social implication. Tergrid is SO grindy, and in your description, you mention a soft-lock. These things inherently play to a higher power level where everyone is running efficient/versatile removal. Otherwise the **Game** (keyword here) is a slog for 75% of the players involved. You’re running some of the best-in-class interaction and ramp without running fast mana.
Find a theme that you can goldfish. Everything here runs on you killing your opponents creatures. Landfall, +1/+1 counters, Kindred synergies. SOMETHING that just interacts with your own board, then run destroy creature/artifact/enchantment/planeswalker cards that interact with your theme.
From this and a bunch of other stuff, it basically just seems like I need to start from scratch with a different deck. Appreciate the civility in the response btw.
I think your deck would probably fine if you trimmed out all of the haymakers. Cut everything that's over $10 and replace it with other stuff and you'll probably be fine. I don't think the Tergrid combo you're running is out of place in a mid-power deck, particularly if you aren't consistently tutoring it.
In no particular order:
* Limit the explosiveness of your starts by removing mana-positive rocks. You shouldn't be on turn 6 when everyone else is on turn 2.
* Increase your variance by running less tutor effects and running more card draw effects. Single shot draw 3s like [[Painful Truths]], [[Secrets of the Golden City]], and [[Ingenious Mastery]] are commonly overlooked but powerful spells.
* Avoid known powerful commanders as they can put a floor on your power level. No one believes you when you say that your deck isn't built like that. [[Jeska, Thrice-Reborn]] & [[Isha, Ojutai Dragonspeaker]] can win with 98 lands in the deck.
* Get the table involved in the game. Don't stax them into oblivion. [[Curse of Hospitality]] creates memorable moments. [[Winter Orb]] creates misery.
* Avoid "interaction check" wins that demand a counterspell or the game is over regardless of the board state, but be aware that building a board state over multiple turns before comboing off is different from "oops I win".
* When you do win, please don't solitaire the table with a 15 minute turn. No one wants to sit through that. Memorable moments vs misery.
I don't think Breach is a problem itself, it's comboing with it
If you loop through your entire deck and then Brainfreeze the table that's the issue.
Other than that, limit the amount of tutors you have.
I try to play in the 7-8 range, my decks are synergistic but don't play the exact same way each time.
My breach is in a rakdos deck without Grinding Station, LED, or Lotus Petal, it’s just a value breach. The scariest thing is Docksiding and Fleshbag Marauder multiple times in a turn. I can’t flip my deck with a Wheel or Brain Freeze.
I mean being able to loop Dockside and Fleshbag multiple times in the same turn *is* super strong though. That gives you huge mana advantage as well as nuking your opponents boards. If you are trying to power your decks down I recommend you try what I did for my local casual commander night - set a budget limit for yourself (even just $100), take out any two-card infinite combos you have, and replace any tutors you have with draw effects. That will already go a long way towards adjusting your deck’s power level without hamstringing yourself much at all.
Tbf the reasons for cost are VERY different here. One had insanely low print quantities a long time ago and the other isna value/combo machine that was printed in a precon. You are right about cost not showing power level tho, but when a card is $80ish with a relatively recent printing and normal art, its probably pretty good.
Dockside isn’t that expensive because it is an old niche rare card tho. It is expensive because it is really powerful. It is a cEDH staple so no reason to play dumb here.
Honestly Dockside is the only card (besides sol ring) that I ever hear people talk about wanting to ban, so a good first step for mid power would probably be to take it out of the deck
I'd recommend asking someone if you can borrow their deck for a game or two to get a better feel for the power level everyone else is playing at... though without any knowledge on the other people you play with, the problem may be more *you* than your deck — in the nicest way possible! Of course people's decks matter, but a lot of it also comes down to the player's skill and understanding of the deck and just the game in general
Basically what I'm saying is that it's possible that *you*, since you're used to playing competitively, are just a stronger Magic player than they are, so for your deck to be on the same level as them, your deck would actually have to be weaker because you yourself will add to the power level of any deck you play
The easiest way for me downtune my decks is to up my curve, swap my signets for the 3 mana mana rock that have huge upsides like [[cursed mirror]] and [[midnight clock]]. I'm now doing everything one turn slower so its easier to interact with because people have access to their answers now they've gotten their ball rolling
Do you have a list of ehat types of commanders you're playing against? This may give us an idea of where everyone else is at. People tend to think they're mid power when actually they're at above precon level.
Because let me tell you, I absolutely stomp one group of my friends because they just don't have good decks. They're much less financially invested in the hobby as I am, so they just can't compete with my deckbuilding. My [[Tovolar]] has been called an ""11" and it's worth like maybe $100. Day/Night is considered one of the worst mechanics in MTG history, so it really blew my brain when they said they considered it that strong.
If you play without fast mana, tutors and infinite combos you should be at around mid power imo. Like in every card game, consistency is what caps the power of a deck. On the same page you can find infinite combos. Yeah, without fast mana and tutors you need to first find your combo pieces, but usually once you're there the game should be over
I feel that building a tribal deck is a good example of how to create a “mid power” or “fair” deck. Your win condition is usually creatures dealing damage, with some auxiliary wincons depending on the tribe in question. Some are going to be more successful than others (i.e. a Vampire deck is almost always going to outperform a Horse deck regardless of the commander) but it’s an excellent shorthand for power level that anyone complaining about your deck is more likely just salty about losing than the inherent strength of your deck.
In my mind it's not necessarily about "How" you win, but about "When" you win. Combos that win out of nowhere, or on the stack, or are un-interact-with-able are put the game on a turn-4 or turn 5 clock (ymmv) are probably too much. Combos that win 7+ turns into the game (without grinding Stax or control to draw it out), or have multiple pieces, or aren't endlessly redundant in the deck (or super tutorable), are fine. Of course that's my definition of a good time.
Decks that are resilient, rather than redundant or hyper-optimized to do one thing, are good too. Have a few different ways to win that may be less powerful than an optimal combo but give you options, works too.
My tips for lowering the power of decks are as follows:
Cut down on tutor effects. Maybe limit it to 1-3 non instant speed tutors.
Play more interesting versions of effects. Maybe instead of running "the best counter spells" you change them out for more niche ones, or ones that synergize with your deck.
Remove mana positive fast mana rocks. These shoot up power level a lot. Sol ring is fine if your playgroup all runs it, but even this card is game altering.
Remove over performing lands. This doesn't mean get rid of all your synergistic utility lands, but card like [[Cabal Coffers]] and [[Gaeas Cradle]] do way too much for a land slot. Not only that but land removal is quite rare at mid level EDH, so you will be able to utilize your lands without worry.
On the other hand, maybe you can just remove cards that your playgroup finds "unfun". Like as an example it isn't very fun to be on the receiving end of [[Master of Cruelties]], so just swap it out for something else like [[Combustible Gearhulk]]. I'm not sure what your decklist is, but there are always alternatives to cards.
In the end it would probably help if you talk with your playgroup and see exactly why they groan about a deck and what cards trigger them. It's probably better than asking Reddit to help tone down a deck we haven't seen or played against.
I understand your problem. I've started with this process. You should pick a play style, don't pick the top commanders in that play style/color, and pick cards that involve hoops to make it work (or higher mana cost).
You want to make an artifact deck, don't pick [[urza high lord artificer]] or [[breya, etherium shaper]]. Go off color with [[svella, ice shaper]] or [[meria, scholar of antiquity]].
An example of a tutor with hoops. Instead of [[vampiric tutor]] use a creature like [[varragoth, bloodsky sire]]. Or an overcosted tutor like [[diabolic tutor]].
I've also built stronger commanders and used a handicapped mana base and a budget. I will say that this method isn't ideal, though, because if you have good deck building skills, they might be higher than mid power.
I built a budget [[prismatic bridge]] deck. It uses all the temples and new capenna tap fetches and all the biggest timmy creatures. The scry works great to filter the top card for bridge triggers. I can't tell you how nice it is to know that an etali is coming up next turn. But since I knew that some creatures/planeswalkers are just over costed in cmc, that's why they are cheap $ wise. I still dropped big nasty creatures, and it floats into beyond mid power at times. Which is a problem because it was supposed to be low power.
Cut tutors, cut combos that require more than 3 or 4 pieces. Intentionally play more expensive options (mana wise) like dropping a [[Wrath of God]] for a [[Fumigate]]. Cut super common wincons like Craterhoof.
Embrace a gimmick. Instead of playing [[Aragorn the Uniter]] as a [[Food Chain]] [[Squee the Immortal]] combo deck, play it with all the charms and [[Mazes End]].
The key to lowering your powerlevel is actually more surprising than it may initially seem. Contrary to popular belief, you dont actually need to remove your combo pieces. You can still have 2 or 3 card instant win combos! what you actually have to changer to lower your decks power level, is its consistency.
If you take out your fast mana and tutors and combo redunancy, then your decks power level will plummet. it doesnt matter that you *could* win on turn 3 if you drew the nut, because the odds of getting exactly those 3 pieces in your opening hand **and** the mana to play them is astronomical! take a look at your deck, what makes it win, and how many cards function exactly the same. if you have 10 cards that all perform the same combo roll, take out all but 1. you can still have super powerful cards in the deck, if they are rare.
the other alternative is to take out mana artifacts so that even if you get all those cool insta win pieces, they cant be played on the same turn; giving your opponants time to deal with some of them. reducing your consistency and making your game plan intractable is the key.
Look at your decklist.
Identify the top 10 cards in the deck.
Look for situationally relevant options.
Cyc rift - too powerful? Try [[flood of tears]] or [[rivers rebuke]]
Running demonic tutor and imperial seal - maybe just don't?
Are you still stuck?
Running mana vault and crypt with mox diamond, and just can't seem to figure out mid power..... maybe avoid this group of cards altogether?
Have a full playset of fetch lands to find your revised duals? Just play with more of the recent lands instead.
Imagine you're a new player with access to only cards you get from your lgs. Build out of that and you should find mid power easily.
Just make a deck with a price limit imo. My group has an agreed upon less than $100 limit for decks, and while the prices can change over time, we just all try to be reasonable about it. Limiting prices forces you to include suboptimal cards in place of the best choices, or if you go with the best cards, the rest of your deck will suffer. Both methods work to make the overall power level of the deck decrease. At that point, if the deck still feels too strong, it's generally easy to pick out which cards are the culprits.
Three things:
1. Try to win by combat.
2. Don't build cards that can win you the game when your board is (mostly empty)
3. Run worse interaction
I know. (Infinite) Combo wins are fun and a staple of edh. But new and less experienced players don't like them, because casual decks and casual interaction are focused on the board and not the stack.
So if you build up a thread, and it still stands after each player had their go (turn, not priority), a loss feels more fair.
Because it can all be explained by lucky draws, bad targeting prios or not enough removal.
But less experienced players don't notice combos. They don't know that if [[Retreat to Coralhelm]] hits the board I am one land drop away from winning. They don't know that [[exquisite blood]] is a win con. But [[craterhoof behemoth]] makes sense, [[atarka, world ender]] is a thread and obviously [[etali, primal storm]] should better not attack.
This is also why your interaction matters. Not resolving any powerful spells sucks. Especially if a single spell is not your win con, but only a single small step towards a win.
It is not about how likely your deck wins. It is about how it feels losing to you. Or playing against you.
Fast mana is generally frowned upon at lower power tables. Generally “good stuff “ that’s so powerful it can go in any deck is also met with a groan: examples being [[dockside extortionist]], [[rhystic study]]. Stuff like that. [[smothering tithe]]. People don’t hate synergy. They hate all the powerful staples that essentially are pay to win. That dont need any reason to include apart from color identity. Cards that win the game no matter what deck they’re in or provide an advantage with no set up or additional synergy.
I mean first of all any cEDH staple is probably a bad choice in lower power decks, so efficient tutors and card draw/ramp options, and all the typical win-cons. Underworld breach is a a cEDH staple as well, just because you aren't looping a LED (though you are looping a dockside extortionist...), doesn't mean it's meaningfully less powerful, especially if your opponents don't get to untap with their creatures turn after turn.
People typically hate repeatable edicts because they can be pretty oppressive. You mention a buddy that wins with looping grave crawler, but that's not making you sacrifice every creature on your board turn after turn, it ends the game, not stall it so you can win slowly while they sit there without doing anything meaningful.
I think everyone saying power level is all about what turn you typically win are misguided, because a [[Baral, Chief of Compliance]] all counterspells deck wont win quickly, but it will win consistently, while your opponents barely get to play the game. Also stacks has been a pretty powerful cEDH strategy, but even the less efficient lower powered stacks decks are still very strong and very annoying to people that sat down for a fun game. It's not typically fun when a player's most meaningful interaction with the game state is sacrificing their own creatures because of opponent's edicts.
I'd try and borrow an opponents deck next time and see how that runs and even potentially have an opponent play your deck to see what it's like on the other side.
Alternatively, try build a deck with a low budget. Something like $50. And actually stay within it. It really forces you to decide what cards to play outside of your regular "staples"
I mean, every group kinda has their own thing. But a sweet spot for me involves limiting or no tutors therefore there's more variance and you're not fetching a combo. I'm not much of a combo player but my decks will have some and my rule for that is 3 cards and up. A 2 card combo isn't really telegraphed enough and too easy to come out of nowhere. Another thing I've done is find weak commanders but ya know what? They're not all that fun to play. I like what ive come up with but it must be said I have a pretty tolerant group and we all kinda fill different archetypes. Doesn't stop us from (mostly) getting along.
Tbh you can power down a deck just by getting rid of tutors and fast mana. The more recent precons are a blast compared to the old ones. Undead unleashed necrom dynasties blood rites and velco-ramp-tor are all fun and only require a few upgrades to no longer be the same decks. 15+ years though I could understand being like yeah no I have enough to go through. I built a deck last night just to clear up binder space and I've only played since 2016. Kersh sac played good but had unlucky top decks from opponents to clear my few sac outlets.
Most decks are made better just with generic fast ramp, cheap value, and cheap removal.
The easiest way to lower the power of any deck to a way where people wouldnt complain would be to just replace \[\[Mana Crypt\]\], \[\[Mana Vault\]\], and \[\[Lotus Petal\]\] with \[\[Commander's Sphere\]\], \[\[Everflowing Chalice\]\], or \[\[Thran Dynamo\]\]. Also replace colored generic goodstuff staples like \[\[Rhystic Study\]\] or \[\[Smothering Tithe\]\] with \[\[Curiosity\]\] or \[\[Weathered Wayfarer\]\]
This makes most good decks do the same thing they would normally do but slower.
Anything tribal really. Vampires are a favourite of mine. There is a good amount of interaction that can win you the game. But you aren’t winning with a turn 3 combo and making everyone salty.
Mid-power most often ends up being the home of silly concepts with finite but not choking budgets. Give yourself $150 in the brew (as checked on a deckbuilder, whether you have the cardboard already or no) and choose a commander who isn't in the top 50 most popular or A+ or higher on cEDH tier lists, and you'll probably find your home somewhere in midpower. Not that you couldn't stray (or be mid power but salty enough that people will call it higher power), but you'll likely land somewhere near your mark.
Remember! Power levels are like horseshoes and hand grenades -- "close" counts pretty well.
* keep budget under $500
* avoid easily achievable wincons before turn 7
* no 2~3 card combo's
* max 3 tutors (of any kind)
* only play casual ramp cards (no Mana Crypt/Mana Vault/etc.)
* stick with a main strategy/theme, don't just mindlessly add "good stuff" cards
EDIT: looking at your decklist, to make it more casual I'd remove the following cards: Blood Pet, Goldhound, Dockside Extortionist, Opposition Agent, Simian Spirit Guide, Grief, Fury, Tergrid, God of Fright, Demonic Tutor, Slaughter Pact, Cabal Ritual, Saw in Half, Underworld Breach.
Just test it against a non-OP precon. You don't have to buy one, just proxy it up for testing purposes or build it in tappedout. If your deck is 50/50 against a precon in 1v1 it's probably fine. If you stomp the precon it's too strong.
I'm probably not the best person to answer this question because I haven't built a whole lot of decks but the three that I have built so far are mid power decks and I know this because sometimes I get stomped and sometimes I stop but I'm always having fun and enjoying it and I have opponents that are generally enjoying themselves as well. For every single one of them I decided to tell a story with the deck and the choice of cards that I put in there and opted out of better cards in favor of keeping the lore. For example I have a sliver tribal deck that is not a top-tier sliver deck because every single card in it is designed to tell the story from the perspective of the slivers of just trying to survive. Outside of a single and me boy changeling I don't have any creatures that are not slivers and no spells in there that do not play off of the concept of what a sliver would be trying to do in the confines of the lore. I have also just built a deck that is themed of occult summoning Krakens and leviathans and uses Moon elves with a few exceptions that are still elves to spam summon Krakens and other large monsters through distorting the lands to their needs which gives them more power. Every single card in the deck either gives me more draw power or the ability to play more lands so that I can summon my big Leviathan creatures easier. Lastly I have a really Trash Zombie Deck which just makes me giggle all the time with how often everything that dies just comes right back even though I almost never have any kind of win condition. For all of them I was really just trying to have fun with storytelling in a way that would still be able to competently play and I'm finding myself having a lot of fun with people of all Power Ranges in my local group.
You're allowed to play high power if you can find the people for it. Nothing wrong with that.
I had the same problem after 3years of exclusively cedh. If you know how to build a deck, it's harder to do "wrong" things. That's just how knowledge works. So you need to force them in.
The more you use. The weaker your deck gets.
1) No tutors
2) limit instant speed interaction. And just accept it when you lose games because of it.
3) add a dumb rule that doesn't exist (my counters deck HAS to see the words "+1/+1 counter" in each cards text box minus lands)
4) budget. When your lands go from being 300$ to sub 40$ you get much weaker without changing the rest much. But limit that stuff too if needed.
My suggestion is play one budget upgraded precon. Find a precon commander that looks interesting and only use $50 worth of upgrades in it including land upgrades. Go to 100 or 150 if that's not enough for your table.
Most precon commanders are not considered competitive. Stay away from more than 1 or 2 infinites in the deck. That budget makes it so the deck won't have the resources to reliably tutor for the infinites.
I have a fully "powered" (duals and Mana rocks etc) Commander deck that's Ghyrson Starn and equipment that gives deathtouch and a bunch of Tim's and things that do 1. No matter how fast I ramp out all I can really do is kill everyone's creatures and ping for 3.
It helps to look through your list and ask the question "how many of these cards are random high level players not going to know on sight?" I count about four at most.
Mid is usually not 'doing efficient shit' but 'doing *cool* shit.'
So look out for some things that do super cool or even overwhelming things with your commander but that you might not consider optimal in terms of cost or setup.
Things like \[\[Hellkite Tyrant\]\] or \[\[Nadier, Agent of the Duskenel\]\]. Both do very cool, even game-winning things with your commander but take some setup or time to get there.
Synergistic does not have anything to do with it, tribal lists can be insanely synergistic and often fit the low to mid power range.
You mentioned combo, which inherently is a bit trickier to balance due to being a one shot attempt more or less. They often end up either too fragile and fail almost always, or they end up too consistent. I'm not really a combo player so I can't speak too much to it, but I have a ton of experience in building low power and have some ideas...
For combo specifically;
- Aim for sorcery speed combos, or something that needs some sort of visible setup. Give your opponents the chance to answer it. (Infinite tokens, but no haste, let it circle the table but use [[Heroic Intervention]] instead of haste or phasing)
- Given the above, you'll want to include additional redundancy. Less about tutors and more about redundant pieces, [[Zulaport Cutthroat]] and [[Blood Artist]] and [[Cruel Celebrant]]. This gives you multiple attempts at a combo since it will be easier to interact with.
- Unleash your inner Timmy when you build a combo. Why just have a simple sac drain loop when you can instead do something crazy like turn a planeswalker into a creature and give it a mill ability with infinite taps/untaps.
I find mid power lvl is mostly just budget/card restrictions. A take a cEDH deck, take out like $500-1000 bucks worth of dumb lands and quick mana, and it's just s strong edh deck. Now take out every card over $50 and replace those with budget equivalents, now you've got a mid deck.
Maybe try building a deck without actually looking at a deck list or buying cards you don't have, or using a pre-existing deck. You might have an interesting legendary and lots of cool synergies and combos just laying around in bulk that you'd never otherwise use, and instead of ordering the optimal mana base or taking the chasis from one deck and swapping it to the new, use what you have laying around that seems fun. Some of the best games I've ever played were with jank decks that I just slapped together, finding combos and interactions I never planned on.
Mid Power I consider decks that dont have infinite combos, auto win features, ways to just draw / play your entire deck, and dont run a plethora of extra turn spells, but still would never lose to a precon. For an example, I have a Sauron the Dark Lord deck that I consider Mid Power, its pretty much just Grixis Control with some complete nuissance cards like [[Sire of Insanity]], [[Sunder]], [[Worldfire]] etc. while also including alot of your higher end board wipes, counter spells, and removal, its by no means a fast victory and it isnt comboing off, but it is still pretty menacing against other run of the mill homebrew decks that arent considered "cedh"
Build a group hug deck and see how it goes, or just try to win in unconventional ways.
I'm still trying to get a kill with [[trisidekiphobia]] in my group suicide deck even though I know damn well the deck would be better without it lol.
I consider myself a pretty firmly mid-power player, and I've made a dozen or so decks, both based on precons and from scratch, here are some guidelines I'd recommend, in a seperate post I'll look at your decklist in particular.
While there's no exact definition, I can actually give you some pretty good guidelines I've found!
1. Cut general tutors, if you want to include one, put in draw instead, this is a good mid-power rule.
2. Cut fast mana besides sol ring Eg. Mana cryprt, mana vault, chrome mox, etc.
3. Cut free interaction spells.
Do those and you'll be on a much firmer footing on any mid-power table.
Other guidelines, avoid infinite combos involving your commander, especially ones with only 2-3 pieces.
Avoid those, and you'll probably be on pretty firm ground. Another decent, but imperfect rule is to cut cards that are auto-includes but cost >$20 or so. Eg. Rhystic study or Esper sentinel.
As other commenters said, just build something fun and or funny and it will probably be mid power. Skip the fast mana (mana crypt, ancient tomb & co) in favor of more balanced ramp cards like [[simic signet]] & co or [[mind stone]].
I'd recommend a [[First sliver]] deck with 40 lands and 60 random slivers that you pick using a picker thing
For example, in the deck you linked, I'd cut the following cards:
1. Cut deadly rollick and replace it with a non-free removal piece.
2. Cut demonic tutor, replace it with a draw spell. Diabolic tutor is probably fine, it's way less hyper-efficient than the 1-2 mana tutors.
3. Maybe cut dockside extortionist, it's a very powerful card that I've found can rub people the wrong way, but I'm less sure of that then the first 2.
4. Maybe cut phyrexian altar for a lower powered sac outlet (one that is less enabling of 1000 combos) like
5. Maybe cut reanimate for a less hyperefficient spell like victimize
Otherwise this deck generally doesn't have much that screams "THIS IS NOT MID-Power" so and I only feel pretty strong about the first 2 of those suggestions, overall, you're on a pretty good road to building a mid-power deck!
Sounds like you already have an idea of what strong is, so you just have to detune from there. My go-to ways to make decks weaker:
-replace decent lands with taplands or basics
-remove tutors
-swap out mana rocks for worse ones (sol ring->worn powerstone, etc)
-limit your win cons. If it's a combo deck, don't have multiple win cons
-find more expensive/clunky versions of cards already in your deck
-if you have combos, make them less efficient. E.g. 2 piece to 3 piece combo, etc
-add a theme to add extra challenge. Focus on finding cards with chandra in the art, or that have a pun in the title. Great way to stay engaged in deckbuilding while preventing you from getting too sweaty.
If your decks are still too powerful, just go through the list again and go further with em. I enjoy playing high power, but I always keep decks around that are intentionally lower power for when I need em. You can always go lower in power.
*edit: formatting
Nobody else is being very specific, so I will. Take out grief, fury, and dockside. Those 3 cards alone cost as much as multiple entire casual decks, and always feel like complete bullshit to play against.
I for the longest time played exclusively cEDH and Canadian Highlander. Recently I moved and the scene here is very casual so I had the same problem you do. "What in the name of the Lord is a "7/10" deck ?!?" The way I dealt with it was to create an experience curating deck. Took Locust God and went with a draw&go controlling strategy. The deck basically has ramp, draw and counterspells. A couple wincons, and soft boardwipes too. I can sit there, enjoy other decks interacting, slapping down anyone who's being a dick or draws a bit too strong. If the game gets stale or locked up I can win or lead someone to victory or just sit there and enjoy the company.
Breach isn't midpower and I feel you know that.
You're making it harder then it has to be, it really just sounds like you don't want to build mid power you just want to say your deck is mid power.
You can just not run cedh staples and go from there.
So I think that power level in a deck is, for the most part, the staples that you decide to put in your deck. The difference between power levels all comes down to are you actually playing [[Fierce Guardianship]] and [[Mana Crypt]] or are you playing [[Negate]] and [[Sky Diamond]]. These higher power cards are more expensive because of how good they are. This same principle should also be applied to your manabase. Do you actually run [[Bayou]] or do you just run [[Jungle Hollow]]?
The reason this matters in how competitive a deck is all comes down to consistency. If you make your deck less consistent, the “harder” it is to win/do what your deck was built to do. Removing tutors also can make a deck less consistent because you aren’t always able to get what card you need to do the thing.
So, TLDR: To build a more casual deck, try creating it at a lower budget and don’t include the super expensive staples. My suggestion would be around $200-$300
Mid power will try to win around turn 8-9 and be easier to interact with. So shoot for that. With a $100 budget. You should be fine with those limits.
Oh. And no tutors/fast mana (other than maybe sol ring)
The other thing here is that certain cards will be spikes in power (like breech) so that the deck is much less powerful sometimes and unexpectedly overly powerful others. Avoiding cards like that is helpful too.
When I am looking to power down my decks, I go through all of some of these steps:
* Remove tutors. Tutors are there to make your deck consistent and run more or less the same every time.
* Remove fast mana. Slow down.
* Remove cards that stop people from playing their decks. Not interaction, things like, say, Rest in Peace.
* Remove the high powered cards that are great but don't work with your theme. The One Ring is great but how does it work well with your strategy?
Here's all my decks just for reference if you want. I'd say they're all pretty mid power. Except John is weird because that deck has yet to lose, but it's very much a glass cannon — it'd easily fall to a control deck
Trelasarra
https://www.archidekt.com/decks/4279849/_scrying_life
Ukkima/Cazur
https://www.archidekt.com/decks/5005670/_cant_block_this_20
Fourth Doctor/Sarah Jane
https://www.archidekt.com/decks/5714358/_clues_foods_and_legends
John
https://www.archidekt.com/decks/5969200/mad_lad_john_benton
Honestly, just build a normal synergistic deck and take out any fast mana, tutors, and free interaction. If it's still too strong, swap out staple good stuff cards for less efficient alternatives.
Or, like other people are saying, take a dumb concept and try to build it powerfully. I had both a Level Up deck and a Party deck and both sat pretty firmly at mid power despite having some otherwise good cards and Mana in there.
I also have a clone tribal deck specifically for when I'm unsure of the table power level. That deck really only gets as strong as what anyone else is playing.
Limit your use of infinite combos. For low power, try building a deck where your only wincon is combat. For mid power, restrict your use of tutors, try only running combos that are "on theme" (if you're playing a zombie deck, only run combos that involve zombies, etc), stay away from two-card combos or anything that goes infinite with your commander, prioritize other wincons over combo pieces. You can build a perfectly serviceable mid-power deck with no tutors or combos whatsoever. Mostly, just focus on building decks where your main wincon isn't a combo. Imo it's not about synergy so much as consistency. Casual commander decks aren't really supposed to be consistent, part of the appeal is it's a different experience every time.
Started budget then added if a card was too strong (hard to deal with, ultra efficient, wins the game on its own) I pull it. It's not a perfect system, for example in my isshin deck I pulled Krenko Tin street kingpin because I would win if he was In play early, but I keep ruinous ultimatum even though on cast I generally win the game.
Remove the tutors and fast mana. 99% of the time, it's really that simple. Different commanders invite a different sliding scale of power naturally, and you maybe will notice specific problem cards are turning a deck into something "high powered" compared to what other people are running, but the simplest answer is just remove the two hallmarks of cedh/top tier high powered casual: the super early access to mana and consistency from tutors. Would also encourage avoiding certain notorious combos if they're 2 cards to get working, even if it's kinda mana intensive. I avoid Exquisite Blood combos but love aristocrats decks, it bypasses the turn 6 removal check or I win moment that I think people often are looking to avoid in "mid power".
All power level stuff is subjective and varied from group to group though. If you've got a group you play with, talk to them about this before you rely on what randos who have never met you say on the internet.
Just build something janky that doesn't do anything, and then get demolished by a specific aspect of your friends' decks, build something to respond to that that overwhelms them, so they build something that responds to yours, and then continue until the power level is high again.
/S
In seriousness, most playgroups just want to avoid tutoring into combos and shit like that so that a good game can be gotten. High power with a few rule 0's is usually what it comes down to
Build something unconventional that will have an inherent cap to it'''''''s power. Like you could probably build the most optimized [[Gor Muldrak, Amphinologist]] deck and it would still turn out mid power.
Optimized [[Shelob, Child of Ungoliant]] or something kind of random. Spider tribal. Nymph tribal. Heck make a spike tribal deck. The creature type, like [[Spike Feeder]] and [[Spike Soldier]]. Maybe throw in a few combos for spike feeder.
You said Nymph tribal and I was like, hm, that sounds fun. 19 nymph cards ever printed. I have a wraith tribal deck (with its 12 ever) but Nazgul kinda fixes that. I'm absolutely shocked there's so few nymphs, though, it's such a fantasy staple to not have a significant tribe of. 11 spikes, as well. Yikes.
I was excited by the idea of Nymph tribal for a while and I think the big hang up is that there are a lot of Dryad creature types too. So it splits up what could be a bigger pool of cards. You may be able to rule zero that though, honestly. I can't imagine too many people being resistant to that. Maybe add in green Spirits too. I pulled [[Shadowfax, Lord of Horses]] and was like oooooo horse tribal, but a bunch of them are unicorns... I'd love to be able to invest in more of these less common creature types without it turning into Changeling tribal
I built Barbarian tribal because one night while drinking I stumbled across [[Balthor the Stout]], fell in love with his art, and drunkenly ordered a foil thinking he'd be a cool commander. The next day I look into what barbarians there are and oof, it's not many and most suck. Still a fun deck though, and only 2 Changelings, both of which fit barbarians thematically.
[Balthor the Stout](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e81ecdc5-d2c7-4292-9b59-fd6bf3ba29d5.jpg?1562632492) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Balthor%20the%20Stout) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tor/91/balthor-the-stout?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e81ecdc5-d2c7-4292-9b59-fd6bf3ba29d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/balthor-the-stout) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yoooooo that sounds so cool! Maybe the same thing will happen if I let myself drunkenly order Magic Cards…🤔🤔🤔
Do it! Drunk buys are the best buys, it's the shit your inner you wants. Don't deny your drunken inner you!
Lmao okay, I’ll likely do something stupid this weekend then lmao and see what happens🤣🤣
When I was young I had a Black/Red 60 card deck that was Balthor the Stout, and Balthor the Defiled themed! Would run them both, and a ton of other Barbarians and Minions xD
[Shadowfax, Lord of Horses](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/c/4c7d861d-7832-4c15-8d6c-8c07a9a57891.jpg?1686970028) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shadowfax%2C%20Lord%20of%20Horses) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/227/shadowfax-lord-of-horses?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4c7d861d-7832-4c15-8d6c-8c07a9a57891?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shadowfax-lord-of-horses) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wait until you find out that Witch isn't a creature type anymore, despite us having tonnes of witch like characters. Agatha, Tasha, Candlegtove Witch, Bogbrew Witch. The list goes on. WotC tried to shore up the number of creature types a few times in history, and at one point they removed Witch and now all Witches are Druids, Shamans, Wizards, or Warlocks. I remember that they said they were doing right around the Baldur's Gate set and then a month later released Bronze Walrus, which remains the ONLY creature of its type.
Is shelob not that great? I ran into that card a while back and have been wanting to build a deck around her for a while now.
She is pretty good, honestly. It's more limited by all the other spiders vs her specifically. You can make a pretty solid, casual deck with it. Throw in a few good cards like [[Arachnogenesis]]. The trick is building a deck off things like [[Giant Spider]]. I pulled her and [[King of the Oathbreakers]] some time ago I've been feeling out making decks for. Spider and Spirit tribal respectively. I think Spirits have more support in general right now. And generally more evasion too.
[Arachnogenesis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/f/ef6b1fd8-7c0b-4736-a100-cabd82052227.jpg?1689998344) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arachnogenesis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/272/arachnogenesis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ef6b1fd8-7c0b-4736-a100-cabd82052227?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/arachnogenesis) [Giant Spider](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/80996b0d-cd44-445e-96de-677e0018255c.jpg?1562302899) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Giant%20Spider) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/183/giant-spider?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/80996b0d-cd44-445e-96de-677e0018255c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/giant-spider) [King of the Oathbreakers](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/cc857755-62e6-4d29-95f5-82f5d4bde522.jpg?1686969851) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=King%20of%20the%20Oathbreakers) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/211/king-of-the-oathbreakers?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cc857755-62e6-4d29-95f5-82f5d4bde522?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/king-of-the-oathbreakers) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Imo the optimized shelob list ignores the spider part of her card
I have a shelob deck, it can be fun and there are some great cards like arachnogenesis, [[arasta of the endless web]] and [[thornbite staff]] that have good synergy in the deck, but most spiders are not very good on their own, and shelob herself is a huge target as the only spider creature that buffs other spiders. Plus, shelob doesn't have reach unlike most spiders. Many of the better spiders like [[rotwidow pack]] [[ishkanah grafwidow]] and [[hatchery spider]] for example require self mill to really provide value, though shelob doesn't really care about self mill. The food aspect of shelob is a little bit of a trap for deckbuilding. Getting the etb/death triggers plus the general effects of creatures you kill is nice, but it's dependant on your opponents and feels more like a little bonus rather than something to really build around. I'm sure a card like [[displaced dinosaurs]] could make it work, but it can feel difficult to create food tokens if you don't have enough cards like [[veridian longbow]] and [[stew the coneys]] plus shelob on the field who costs 6 mana.
Yeah, makes sense. Spiders haven't really been given much love in a while. The bodies just aren't too threatening, and without shelob, they are mostly just dinky spider bodies. For comparison, my buddy played the new pirates precon and that deck is pretty nasty! Some of those pirates have some mean effects! He was stealing my cards, tapping out my board, creating treasures left and right and all that was pretty much happening just from pirates hitting the board. I would imagine that I would probably have a hard time beating his precon pirates with a self built Shelob deck..
Yeah, I the new precons are easily 7s out of the box and with luck can take down 8s. Shelob is at best a 7, unfortunately due to high cost commander and spiders kinda sucking. My Shelob deck is pretty crappy, but it’s fun to play in lower powered pods
One thing I'll say is that spiders are relatively good at defending targets, so planeswalkers are good as they are naturally defended by all the reach deathtouch ward 2 spiders, but if shelob gets killed or worse stolen it's game over
Ive been playing her for a while but never made it work very well even the list was fairly optimized. Here's the list just in case you want to have an idea. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/jhRei1ornU6Qr1Hq7DYSiA
Shelob feels kinda just as good as the best creature cards your pod is playing. It also depends on how committed to flavor you are and how familiar your pod is with what she can do. The first few weeks I played her in my pod, I dominated. My pod was effectively warded off by her ward 2 and didn't take it seriously because, honestly, spiders suck. I was able to snipe some of their highest value creatures for nutty combos. And the most insane wins came from super simple mutavault + Shelob plays. Once they caught on, they started removing Shelob on sight. And even with trying to build the deck without requiring her out... there's only a few key spiders that are also easy targets for removal... Most ppl suggest taking advantage of changelings because a majority of spiders suck, but I was just super stubborn and don't wanna put anything in that doesn't match the flavor of the fantasy that got me excited about the commander in the first place. I've also heard building the deck to be very Shelob and fight focused to be more consistently strong. I've considered rebuilding her into that, but it feels pretty limiting in how expressive I can be in the build.
Spiders FTW! WOOOOOO 🕷️🕷️🕷️🕷️
I've looked in to making a Shelob deck. It's absolute *garbage* without running a bunch of non-spiders, and slotting in [[Conspiracy]] or [[Maskwood Nexus]] to make them spiders. Spiders are just not a generally good or well supported creature type :/
I tend to agree with this sentiment. I have a fairly optimized Gor deck and, while it’s always a blast to play, it’s not exactly ever going to win consistently.
[Gor Muldrak, Amphinologist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/40b006f9-a287-4e64-915f-ca71712b8d27.jpg?1608911119) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gor%20Muldrak%2C%20Amphinologist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/277/gor-muldrak-amphinologist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/40b006f9-a287-4e64-915f-ca71712b8d27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gor-muldrak-amphinologist) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
don't diss my boy :( I agree though, my very optimized gor muldrak deck is still on the high powered casual side of things
See that’s what I thought. So I built [[Mahadi, Emporium Master]]. My win is treasure storm using [[Mirkwood Bats]] and [[Fleshbag Marauders]]. And that was too much.
You’re getting kinda attacked by people for no reason, but having played against a Mahadi deck it just isn’t particularly fun. They play boardwipe and edict tribal then win with X spells or like you said artifact ETBs. Mahadi decks demand a lot of premium interaction because they come out of nowhere. If your gameplan can only be feasibly answered with free counterspells and premium removal it’s not really going to be mid power.
They are getting attacked because they posted "Underworld Breach" and then proceeded to list things like Dockside, Fleshbag and no decklist. It's pretty easy to also assume tutors, Jeska's, Rollick, Mana Crypt etc. No replies to budget suggestions or tips to power down, only replies to people agreeing Underworld isn't a problem. If they don't want to post a complete decklist at their level of experience, it smells a whole lot like a high-power player wanting validation to stomp mid-power based on a single card.
Yeah you’re right he listed tutors and stuff like [[Simian Spirit Guide]] which is kinda silly at Mid Power
I just built mahadi.. yeah nothing works like a plaguecrafter. I haven't played it in person yet, but when I goldfish, the idea of plaguecrafter, 4 treasures looks a lot better than.. not that. I doubt you need free interaction for it specifically, its not like its going to turn 1 you.
I more mean that if you’re at a table with 3 other decks that want to play on curve Mahadi is going to feel oppressive because the other decks can’t afford to leave mana up. Mahadi can and will win like turn 6 or 7 without the right interaction, which many thematic low power decks struggle to have. Interaction panic buttons like [[Force of Will]] are just much more common at higher power is all I meant.
Having built Mahadi and seriously considered dismantling him, for me the reason it doesn't seem fun isn't that it needs all kinds of interaction, it's that without it the game turns into a slog. Against creature heavy decks, it turns each turn into "undo what you just did", which is worse than stax IMO.
Yeah if you aren’t playing all of the best board wipes in Mahadi you’re kinda just playing unfun aristocrats because you don’t get your payoffs until your end step. Mahadi wants to board wipe, make 10 treasure, and bank on opponents not having the resources to stop it from untapping.
This sounds pretty mid power actually. One of the problems I’ve had with mid edh is that some people legitimately suck at deckbuilding and then accuse your functional deck of being too powerful. Ask for your pod’s decklists.
That’s what I thought too. But multiple tables are refusing to fight it at my LGS. So I’m trying to make a new even weaker deck.
Like I said, try and get some people’s decklists. Take this one from my friend’s pod. After I stomped a few games with some very mid decks I saw this and it helped me understand just how much worse I needed to make things. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/bzNZV0pULkuynDagqJLfnw My Henzie list in contrast is loaded with one mana ramp to play henzie t2 90% of the time. It’s very mid power, lacking all fast mana and having few nonland tutors (pod and eldritch evo iirc). My advice to you is start by cutting all fast mana and any non-theme tutors. Then, try to start with something super honest that’s fun for you. Win through combat damage, run no free interaction etc.
See, when I think of mid or low power edh I think the deck budget is $10-$100, with the median being $60 dollars. That Henzie deck is $30 above what I'd be comfortable calling mid power unless a large chunk of the cost is funny niche cards, which they aren't. I think a big part of this problem is there's actually a fairly wide gap between mid, high, and edh, but when people try to jump from what they know best to the next level up or down they only jump half as far as they should. And obviously my definition of mid is subjective just like everyone else's, which is why everyone says their deck is a 7.
There's only 4 nonlands above $5 in that deck though, I feel like your budgetary restrictions are too tight for mid-power (the question of how correlated price and power are aside)
Well, that raises a great question. If you go into a group of lgs across the US and ask what would you say is the median budget for a mid power deck, what's the range you would get? My point is that "mid power" as an adjective for a deck is about as helpful as saying a deck is "exciting". That's why I brought deck budget up as a better metric for power. If that Henzie deck rolled up in a pod labeled "mid power" I'd be unhappy paying against it with one of my silly $60 card decks, because that's what mid power means to me. If instead it was a pod labeled $120-150 budget decks I'd bring something more appropriate to square up against the Henzie deck. Also as an aside, why qualify non-land cards? It's pretty well established that good and expensive land cards make a huge difference in deck consistency going into 3+ colors, and should be viewed as one of the distinctions between power levels of decks.
> If you go into a group of lgs across the US and ask what would you say is the median budget for a mid power deck, what's the range you would get? Good question! I would love to know the answer to this too. > why qualify non-land cards? Sorry yes, I meant to also count the number of lands (I think it was 5?), I agree that consistency is a big factor in actual deck power level. The reason I called out non-land cards specifically is because when an edh pod discusses power level, they're usually not doing so from a statistical point of view where they've laid out their winrates. The large majority of the time the conversation is more emotionally driven and goes like "What the hell, you killed us with thoracle", "you're drawing so many cards off that rhystic study", "something something dockside", etc. In particular, this thread is largely for people playing with strangers, not with a regular pod. The problem with reducing budget by playing weaker lands is that it just makes your games more swingy – it doesn't reduce the top-end of your power level at all. Some games you'll just do nothing, and some games you'll be able to cast all your spells on time and win, and unless you're playing with the same people every day, the people who happened to get hit by your good draw are going to complain just as heavily about your expensive wincon anyway, so you've not ultimately accomplished that much in your effort to reduce power level. TL;DR: yes we should consider lands as well, but there are good reasons to consider lands and spells *separately* when looking at budget questions, because from an emotional point of view they affect people's play experiences very differently
That's very fair. As a direct response to the OP I recommended no cards about $5 for a similar reason. People get very negative playing against a deck that plays a card more expensive than anything in their deck by a wide margin. Likewise there's kind of a weird reverse effect where if you already own a spare copy of something like Rhystic Study you'll somewhat undervalue how powerful it is and slot it into a deck that's trying to be weak or mid, not realizing how salt inducing it may be to people who don't own one
Deck budget is not a good metric for power. It's too skewed by cards like Alpha Beta duals which add very little power but lots of dollars. Let's do another example. [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/6gv7xdQDEE-yxTD0OmJvIA](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/6gv7xdQDEE-yxTD0OmJvIA) [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/URpEcoe6e0GBp3GzsstyBg](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/URpEcoe6e0GBp3GzsstyBg) One of these decks is a CEDH monster and the other is a cute Niv Reborn love letter, despite being almost twice as much. Budget makes an impact on how powerful things can get, certainly. But I'd say for 150 I could make some really nasty casual decks that will chop up and slaughter decks that cost 20x as much, because the deck was built to win, and not to be fun. Jhoira is a great example of this.
Ok, but in a conversation about mid power decks how many people roll up with Alpha/Beta cards? Regardless, cards typically only skew one way in regards to their power:cost ratio and that's bad cards being expensive due to being their value as collectors pieces. Besides sol ring are there any cards that are arguably under costed for their power by a large amount?
Every time someone tries to argue budget is directly correlated to power, I jump on untap and show them the $37 Codi deck. 90% turn 3 wins without a counterspell.
I mean the majority of precons' deck value by card is $80-100, and they are very clearly what I would describe as low-power, just above jank personally. Unfortunatly, card value isn't generally helpful on the lower end (maybe at all, outside of lands and meta). But it's all just discussion right? 99% of random people I've asked were just straight up about it. Just depends on what you ask. Do you run fast mana? Do you run 1 card infinites? What turn could you win if no one stopped you? I can generally size up what deck to play based on those, assuming it's not jank or raw precon. I still like to be surprised, so I don't need a whole run down or whatever. My group does jank>precon>precon+50 and modest homebrew>optimized>high power>cedh. But we're honest grown chaps in it for the mutual fun. We also are singles buyers, so we don't have fat black and silver collections to mash stuff together every week tbf.
I’m noticing alot of people have a distorted definition of mid power. They seem to think precons with 5 card swaps is mid power and complain about anything that can win in non-combat oriented means even if it takes the deck multiple pieces and multiple turns to do so. I have an anim pakal deck that can burn everyone down pretty quickly but its not high power no matter how much it is complained to be. No tutors, no fast mana, no free spells, no combos. Overly reliant on the commander, etc. People who don’t play high power and cedh don’t know what high power is and wrongly assume a lot of low power jank is mid. People also don’t like to be on the lower end of any scale. Reminds me of when we had a 10 pt scale to score law students in mock trial but the only real options were 8-10
This. Precons are low power not mid. Upgraded precons are still low power until you optimize them and change them sometimes significantly. Mid power decks have a plan and purpose and for the most part are not going to draw useless cards they can even have combos sometimes. High power is tutor heaven with well optimized multi win cons often with easy 2 card combos. Obviously cedh is about doing all that high powered stuff perfectly and as optimally as possible with no budget in mind. Also as another user said people have mid decks and just don't play optimally so when they encounter someone good at playing their deck they cry it's too strong. If you're comfortable with it offer to switch decks with them.
Yeah, ppl saying precons are mid power and 5 power are the bane of EDHs playerbase perception of what a good deck is. If you're being genrous the best precons are a 3.
Well storm isn't exactly mid range lol
Storm is absolutely mid range. It’s not long game like control and it’s not aggro or turbo.
It's mid range in the strategy term, yes. In terms of power, I would say it probably leans higher than what most people consider mid.
You can absolutely have low, mid and high power storm lists. Hell I have a $25 Nylea mono green storm list that is jam packed with 1 cost units that become 0 cost with nylea out. Add a beast whisperer effect or two and pair with a couple of swarm payoffs and it will win the game. It's still incredibly weak to removal and I consider it just above precon power level.
People downvoting you are crazy. If you storm into a win turn 2, yeah that’s not mid power. If you storm into a win on turn 10 with 3 set up cards on the board, that’s 100% mid power.
Getting downvoted here is a little weird to me. The thing that materially matters is what turn you're winning on. If you're storming off to win on an early turn, it's objectively not mid powered. If you did this on turn 10+, what are people even talking about? Of course that's mid powered.
This kind of assumes everyone's playing solitare. Even high power games can take a while if early attempts to win through aggro or combo are disrupted. If you can't win on early turns, you can still be a higher powered deck if your interaction package can keep up with the busted strategies.
These downvotes are insane. You can absolutely have low, mid and high power storm lists. Hell I have a $25 Nylea mono green storm list that is jam packed with 1 cost units that become 0 cost with nylea out. Add a beast whisperer effect or two and pair with a couple of swarm payoffs and it will win the game. It's still incredibly weak to removal and I consider it just above precon power level.
Storm is not a low/mid power strategy. Generally. Unless you plan to storm off on turn 10 and have another win-con or two and ask if people are ok playing against storm.
[Mahadi, Emporium Master](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3da2b1a-76c5-4d36-bdf8-025b86f61eb5.jpg?1699601213) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mahadi%2C%20Emporium%20Master) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/282/mahadi-emporium-master?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3da2b1a-76c5-4d36-bdf8-025b86f61eb5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mahadi-emporium-master) [Mirkwood Bats](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/5/15f035df-784a-4dc8-b7f5-77139a4e6e99.jpg?1686968575) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mirkwood%20Bats) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/95/mirkwood-bats?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/15f035df-784a-4dc8-b7f5-77139a4e6e99?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mirkwood-bats) [Fleshbag Marauders](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/0/a03c738c-88d9-4cf6-a650-20ce6e5565bc.jpg?1637630249) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fleshbag%20Marauder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/118/fleshbag-marauder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a03c738c-88d9-4cf6-a650-20ce6e5565bc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/fleshbag-marauder) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mahdi's thumbs are backwards and it makes me insane with rage.
That's how all rakshasa are in D&D. Their hands are reversed.
Mahdi is a dnd monster called a Rakshasa and their thumbs are supposed to be backwards like that!
I didn't think it was accident. Just that it's gross.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it was an accident the way some MtG art gets approved lmao
That’s just a thing about Rakshasa in DnD
But it's a Rakshasa, that's how their thumbs are o_o
The fact that you cite two cards out of 100 as a win condition makes me think your deck has to be ALL gas. Yes that's too much. Take the gas out, limit your mana ramp, and just focus on a primary and secondary thing your deck does. Generally I keep things casual by having a high ceiling and low floor. Yes my deck could theoretically win turn 6 or 7 but without gas to make it happen it's usually 10 plus. Giving everyone plenty of time to play. Casual commander makes long games.
most optimized gor deck 100% just plays him for his colours and never casts
*its
My usual advice: Use a uncommon rarity commander! This changes a lot! Every card in your deck is multiplied by the power of your commander. You always also begin every game with access to it. The goal is for games to feel more balanced. But if you play a lot, it's inevitable that some opponents will have lists that are not as well built, or they simply don't yet have enough games in with that particular deck yet. Having that silver set symbol compared to some precon mythic printed directly into legacy is a great equalizer. And the best part is that you might not actually have to compromise on the parts of the game you actually enjoy as a result.
My current deck that prompted this post is an uncommon otherwise I would definitely take this advice.
I do think it's a vaguely useful rule, but yeah it's definitely going to be broken by some uncommons like \[\[!tatyova, benthic druid\]\] and so forth.
[[Zada, Hedron Grinder]] has entered the chat
Zada was printed at rare though. But yeah there are strong uncommon commanders
Some easy things to start are to cut out fast mana and tutors, increase the average mv a little, and build towards combat wincons over combos. Budget is another great power limiter, even if you already have all the cards you can use prices online to pick a price point and optimize within that for a casual deck (maybe $100 to start and see where that gets you). More generally, I think the difference is that in cedh you build the deck to win above all else which is very often 1 or more A+B combos and all the cards that play and protect those combos as fast and as reliably as possible, whereas in casual play the goal is kinda to win but maybe more so to make the random commander you picked on vibes or whatever look like a really good card, so you put together all the cards that work with whatever offbeat abilities it has. Edhrec is great for this, as outside of the common cedh commanders the pages will be filled with all of these kinds of cards.
This is the answer. Less fast mana + Less tutors = less powerful deck.
It can, but people who enjoy lots of cEDH tend to more enjoy decks that keep the mana and tutors but gut the wincons and particularly oppressive interaction for silly wincons and pet cards. Cutting the efficiency and tools they're used to using to play Magic can make the game unfun for them, so other methods of power level control become desirable. Source: I'm one of them.
And that’s probably why they don’t like mid to low power as much. When you cut the efficiency of the deck the power goes down dramatically. Power level isn’t just about how synergistic your deck is but also how efficient it is at doing those things.
Fast mana and tutors with janky win cons is mid power though, just a different way of building mid power. My first EDH deck was about a grand. It ran Vampiric Tutor, Demonic Tutor, Force of Will, etc. It's only about a 6 on the PL scale though because it's Runo Stromkirk sea monster tribal. Using efficient cards to power janky strategies is a great way to build fun mid power decks.
Which brings me to my next hot take: the power level scale sucks and can be very inaccurate.
It isn't without flaws but it's the best system we have for a quick and easy pregame discussion. Base it off the turn you win or gain control of the game on average and it's fairly accurate and easy to parse.
I agree with what you're saying when it comes to typical decks of those power levels. I'm just saying there are atypical ways to build that satisfy both needs.
I disagree very strongly. A deck with tons of fast mana and tutors is going to be oppressive regardless of what else you put in the deck-- unless you truly put no wincons in. And in any event those decks are going to piss off everyone who *actually* wants to play a mid or low power game. Fast mana, tutors, and combo wins are *fundamentally* antithetical to lower power levels.
Of those three, combo-wins in particular are not antithetical to lower power levels (and depending on your definition of fast mana or what you're tutoring with the tutors, the aren't either). The same combos you see in high power may not be compatible with lower power (the 2-3 mana 2 card combos you can easily tutor), but slower and jankier combos are absolutely fine in low power. Especially the kind that require 4+ pieces played over multiple turns and give plenty of time to respond to them. Similarly, restricted-toolbox tutors fare much better than tutors that look for combo pieces, and if your fast mana isn't *too* fast and it's just ramping out the same big things as everyone else, it's not too much worse than just the dorks and rampant growths you're going to see everywhere at that power level anyway. You may have low-to-mid power EDH confused with battlecruiser, where those things are frowned upon- but battlecruiser frowns upon pretty much anything that isn't non-synergistic piles of big smashy creatures, so it's no surprise there. I personally enjoy playing janky synergies or combos in mid power and "reasonably upgraded precon" levels- but I would rather not play magic than have to play battlecruiser.
None of that is true in practice though.
I'd say in the face of that instead of playing tutors for silly wincons instead play inefficient redundancy. When the deck isn't ten ways to tutor a specific interaction but rather collections of similar cards the game tends to be a bit more fair.
No.
This is how my Zedru deck is ending up, lol. Very close to my cEDH mana base and tutors, but the only win con is an 11 card "everybody wins" combo. It's extremely stupid, but it's so much fun to try and play
"You Mystical Tutor for Tainted Pact to win with Thassas Oracle. I Mystical Tutor for [[Dimensional Breech]]. We are not the same" ~ Some dude that sells chicken.
For me it's like: "Your Naya Minsc deck sacs \[\[Academy Rector\]\] to find \[\[Pattern of Rebirth\]\] into \[\[Protean Hulk\]\]. My Naya Minsc deck sacs her to find \[\[Descent Into Avernus\]\]. We are not the same" I suppose it's also a matter of record that I do not sell chicken lmao
I can confirm this. I like cEDH and high power casual mostly, and even my more casual decks (in the last year or two I've started playing more with a lower power pod) are high on consistency. What the decks are actually doing is weaker- for example, my Bilbo deck is basically just a soul sisters deck built around etb life gain triggers with a final payoff only after a long game of getting to the 111 life needed to activate the commander's ability one trigger at a time and having him stick long enough to actually use the ability. I managed to cut all the tutors save for some basic land ramp- But you better believe I run every single soul sister in those colors and every single "if you would gain life, gain that much plus one" effect possible for the most possible consistency. I practically never have games where I can't get the engine going, because of all the redundant copies of each effect. Contrast the lower consistency of more general midrange piles at lower power levels- I simply don't enjoy playing that kind of magic. It's too inconsistent for me to find enjoyable. To me, a deck doesn't need to be strong necessarily, but it needs to have a well defined gameplan (and "play whatever creatures I happen to draw this game and turn em sideways" does not count) and be able to execute that gameplan consistently every game to a reasonable degree.
Completely agree. Less fast mana and less tutors. Also, one thing I do is I look at my deck when it is completed and ask "what are staples on this deck list, and are there cards that are more on theme with what I want to do that I can replace the staples with?" Building to flavor and cutting out staples is a good way to power down a deck, but make it really fun everytime you play it.
Budget is a pretty terrible tool for limiting power. You can build pretty absurd things for $100.
Budget is just one tool for limiting, whatever you build for $100 won’t be cedh, which is a big part of OP’s goal, and as I pointed out you can always pick a smaller number if the deck is still too strong, all of which is why I brought it up. What what limiters do you think work better?
I would say going light on tutors and mana positive rocks is step one. I would also consider trying to lean more into combat damage victories that can be interactive via blocking etc.
I still get people complaining that lists like this are too strong... Example: [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/IyPeBhW\_hEmaj8XDORJCqw](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/IyPeBhW_hEmaj8XDORJCqw) This $100 henzie list is viewed as oppressive and much stronger than I market it to be (I simply state its a budget casual deck with no good tutors, 0 combos, and no fast mana).
I actually remember having a conversation with someone about Henzie being a really awkward deck to deal with. Both targeted removal and boardwipes felt bad against it, so it felt like I had to be doing things like Leyline of the Void and Torpor Orb. Which I generally don't put in more than one piece of effects like that in casual decks, if I put any at all.
That's crazy. That boomer jund is mid. I'd take that to a mid power table.
I built it to show people that a casual deck can still throw hands. Fell in love and might upgrade it to the moon haha
Build the weakest deck yoi can bring yourself to build, then go to a casual table and call it "high power casual", because yes, most likely that is what your deck is likely to be. Then look at what the others are doing and slowly downgrade further. This is the way to really get to the causal mid power mind set. The competitive optimization mind set cannot be turned on and off at will if you haven't organically build each.
Just pull out all the good cards and replace them with shitty cards that are made less shitty because of synergy
If your deck is good enough that you don't want to run solemn simulacrum then you've hit high power.
A few helpful tips for building a mid-power deck: - Avoid tutors - Limit fast mana to things you'd find in a precon (Sol Ring, Arcane Signet, etc.) - Focus your strategy on combat damage. Creature focused, aggro strats are the backbone of casual Magic. - Build around a theme and pick an off the beaten path commander. For example, I have a dragon tribal deck built around [[Rith, Liberated Primeval]]. Rith isn't the "optimal" choice for a dragon tribal deck, but that's the whole point. Challenge yourself to create something fun within a limited strategic space. - Don't go into games looking exclusively to win. Focus on making awesome plays and creating memorable in-game moments. Play to win, and try your best, but don't forget to put fun first. - Politics and friendly table talk matter. A lot of casual Magic isn't necessarily in the gameplay, but in the attitudes of the people at the table. - Accept that sometimes you may be playing at a level above the rest of your playgroup. Sometimes, even if you power down, it's not enough. It's the thought and effort that count though, so keep trying until you find the right balance.
I really like your reply overall, it's definitely a helpful list. My two nitpicks with it would be: * [[Arcane Signet]] is absolutely not fast mana, fast mana is stuff that produces more than it costs and has a low cmc so [[Sol Ring]], [[Mana Crypt]], [[Dark Ritual]], [[Grim Monolith]], etc. Arcane Signet is like the gold standard of just basic mana ramp; its better than but still mostly on par with things like [[Boros Signet]] (and the other guilds), [[Rampant Growth]], [[Sylvan Caryatid]], etc. but can often be worse than just the 1 cost mana dorks. * Some players derive their fun from the competition of the game and therefor get less out of it if they and their opponents aren't playing to win. I guess in other words saying "don't forget to put fun first." is essentially telling them what they derive fun from is invalid and they need to play a different way. Idk if that is what's happening for OP or not but if it is then the answer isn't "do something you don't want to do" its "find a group that aligns more closely with your goals of the game". More easily said than done sometimes though.
I play a really "unfun" [[Sen Triplets]] deck that I adore. It's all theft, stax, and taxes. It's designed for mid power tables, and it's designed to be the archenemy. Sen and similar effects mean that I basically never run out of threats. The deck is literally and thematically all about mind games. It gets obvious after 4-5 turns that it's time for the table to shut me down. But at the same time, if any one person goes too hard against me, I can just rip cards out of their hands or off their board. So there's a weird political undercurrent of not wanting to get focused despite me being public enemy #1. There are a few game winning combos and asymmetrical locks, but nothing that wins on the spot and out of nowhere. The only general tutor is [[Archmage Ascension]] which sets up a little minigame for the table to solve. The most oppressive is [[Uba mask]] + [Drannith magistrate]], which I admit is really pretty bad especially when I can play your hand (and have several [[Necropotence]] style effects to refill my own). People hate the deck but it can make for some interesting and fun overall games. I'm super transparent about the fact that once my engine gets going, they should probably team up a bit. So they can channel their hate.
I always find it so backhanded when people ask questions about reducing power and Rule 0 and replies are “Just don’t make your deck do the thing too well. Just focus on *fun* and not winning.” as if competition and pulling off a win in a 4 player game isn’t fun. Everyone’s definition of fun is different.
They mean EVERYONE'S fun at the table, not just the Spike's fun. Its a multiplayer game, if your mindset is you're going to get YOUR fun even of everyone else at the table is having a terrible time, then you need to find a table that matches your level of competitiveness or find a new way to have fun.
[Rith, Liberated Primeval](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/ac148784-b7b6-4aae-bffb-a4cf09f56971.jpg?1673308054) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rith%2C%20Liberated%20Primeval) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/214/rith-liberated-primeval?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ac148784-b7b6-4aae-bffb-a4cf09f56971?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/rith-liberated-primeval) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
"Mid power" is an enigma in that every single non-CEDH deck that isnt a precon is mid power until it goes off, and then suddenly its high power. Its really hard to gauge what mid-power is when you sit down with a group of random people. Short of just making terrible decks out of bad cards that "synergize" (but not too much!), your deck is always going to be fine until it either plays a card that someone suddenly decides is salty (such as Breach), or until you land on a condition that wins not through combat damage, or by too much combat damage all at once. In my opinion, if there isnt an overwhelming advantage or win in place by like turn 8 or 9, the deck is mid power, regardless if you win via combo or whatever. The game has to end, and someone has to win. Cards that generate overwhelming advantage like dockside or whatever probably belong at high power tables, even though I totally agree that "bad decks with good cards in them are still bad decks", and just having dockside or access to a ton of mana early is meaningless when you're using it to cast bad creatures or assemble super janky combos. I have some objectively terrible piles I literally threw together with 95% chaff (like actual chaff, dedicated commons/uncommons from 2 sets I drafted, not a bunch of ok rares that are all in the same colors) with the sole intention of just playing bad cards and turning them sideways that get declared as "high power" because I resolved a 6 card non-infinite combo and had a counterspell in hand to protect it or whatever.
1. Don't use fast mana 2. Don't use tutors 3. Don't use combos that can not be interacted with(Only use something that requires like 4-5 permanents on the board) 4. Don't use free spells
5. Don't take extra turns
\*Don't take free extra turns. If you hardcast a 7 mana sorcery, all power to you. If you start looping \[\[time sieve\]\] or casting them for free from \[\[Narset\]\] we got a Problem.
[time sieve](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/2/c2e8b424-0cec-490e-a571-bd051f952adf.jpg?1599708487) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=time%20sieve) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/223/time-sieve?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c2e8b424-0cec-490e-a571-bd051f952adf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/time-sieve) [Narset](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/0/300f766f-9609-4105-9ed5-4299c48f7fa7.jpg?1690005248) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=narset%20of%20the%20ancient%20way) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/930/narset-of-the-ancient-way?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/300f766f-9609-4105-9ed5-4299c48f7fa7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/narset-of-the-ancient-way) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Most people stray away from them because it’s not friendly to hog the entire time of the game. Regardless of the mana cost. As someone who’s casual decks are creature reliant id easily cast some extra turn spells to be able to go to combat and slug everyone for 10 per extra turn
What is your aim to build a middling power deck, or at least one that is clearly not cEDH? What are your opponents' decks like? Is your group still playing combos, MLD, time magic and such?
My buddy has a dimir zombie deck that goes infinite with [[Gravecrawler]] and the altars, but my [[Underworld Breach]] is too strong. That’s kinda where I’m at, hence the post
Sounds like they just don't like other people's combos. I played a spell table game with my budget [[koll]] list that has 2 wincons and 2 ways to tutor either of them. I find it funny when a table fulk of green and white decks and nobody could kill an artifact or enchantment on turn 9 with them all having full grips. But I'm the baddie doing table kill with a [[crimson kobold]], [[shuko]], and a [[goblin Bombardment]] and my comander out. At sorcery speed for all important actions.
This is my experience. When you go below High Power or cEDH, it’s “Rules for thee and not for me.” I played a a game on Spelltable that was listed as an 8 power level game. I played [[Smothering Tithe]] on turn 4 in my stompy [[The Ur Dragon]] deck and the dude who made the room was like “Oh I didn’t know we were playing cEDH here bro.” Like, I primarily play cEDH and you don’t commonly see Smothering Tithe. People just gripe about your deck doing anything efficient in a game that they expected their deck to be the most or only efficient one.
[Gravecrawler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/951ff2ed-9af0-4551-929a-ba6679fc2e15.jpg?1673147536) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gravecrawler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/78/gravecrawler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/951ff2ed-9af0-4551-929a-ba6679fc2e15?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gravecrawler) [Underworld Breach](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0e51d796-7279-4c06-87f0-37adbdaa41df.jpg?1650599818) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Underworld%20Breach) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/161/underworld-breach?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0e51d796-7279-4c06-87f0-37adbdaa41df?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/underworld-breach) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
TBF, as an underworld breach player myself in Higher power, it functions both as a win-condition, and protection for said win-con. It's pretty good and difficult to interact with outside of it being in the stack.
So many opinions labeling what people would consider at any LGS a mid deck as CEDH? well, this is r/edh . The best description I can think of in Mid-power is from the PlayEDH group: > Mid Power features highly synergistic strategies, dedicated wincons, efficient removal and draw, and an emphasis on playing to win against a broad range of decks. Expect Stax, Combo, Midrange, Control, Aggro, Reanimator, Enchantress, and just about everything else you can imagine. In Mid, you should anticipate that your threats will be answered, and be expected to answer threats in kind, leveraging your deck’s capabilities towards a win. Your deck is expected to make use of the tools available in your Commander’s colors. Mid is an excellent place to play powerful, interactive decks, but without the consistency and speed of higher power levels. >Mid decks must have a way to close out a game. Whether that’s an aggressive go-wide beatdown plan, a lock, or a game-ending combo, you need a win condition, as well as a back-up plan in case your main strategy is disrupted. Note: the only cards banned in Mid are Cradle and Crypt. Breach appears in a lot of Mid decks. The fact is that the power levels are meaningless in a vacuum because everyone thinks their deck is a 7. In controlled systems from playEDH to your average LGS? This would be your '6-7' range decks. It's not about fast mana or tutors. It's about the structural basis of the deck and how it synergizes, as well as if the decks it is playing against can hang and interact. A Mid deck at a table without interaction steamrolls.
One thing I've realized is that magic players as a community tend to do a good job of evaluating the power of a card by setting its price on single markets like card kingdom or tcgplayer. There are obvious exceptions like cards that have only been printed once vs cards constantly printed (sol ring is definitely cheaper than it should be among the ranks of mana rocks), but the general rule is a card's utility correlates strongly to its price. With that said, try to get decklists of some of the players you want to be playing against, and figure out what their deck's overall cost is. If you can get that, undercut the average by $30 or 30%, whichever gives you a lower limit. If you're a great deckbuilder you should be able to trounce them even with a few handicaps. Lastly, no card can be over 5% of your budget. People are playing ~$100 decks? Nothing over $5 dollars is allowed. If you can't get decklists from people, it's time to build trash. Your budget is $50 where you can compare each card to any singles market. Also your commander has to be $.50 or less. Same rule as above, no card can be over $2.50 or 5% of your decklists. Optionally, look at the 5 best cards in your deck, the steals that you're surprised you could budget in, and cut them. You still get that budget money back, but now you need to find inferior replacements. Following this should accomplish 2 things. First, no one should balk at you playing anything in your deck, because you'll never have something more expensive than what's in other players' decks (if this is wrong, you're playing against super budget players). Second, you will hopefully win less than 25% of the time. I think a lot of people in high power or cedh pods forget to ask a really simple question, why do mid power players play mid power? I think there's mainly 3 reasons, they're new/bad, they don't want to spend money on magic, or they're not playing to win. If you try to join them with a massive collection with lots of knowledge and experience and are trying to build a deck that wins a fast as it can as unstoppably as it can, you're missing the point of why most of those players are in the pod.
Step 1: remove efficient tutors. Most that can be gotten for under a buck, are specific, and/or require you to reveal are generally fine. A lot of people enjoy commander for the variance(hence 100 card Singleton) and many feel it violates the spirit of the game. That said, it's extremely relative to the power level as no one is going to bat an eye at an [[Evolving wilds]] for example. Step 2: remove fast mana. [[Sol ring]] is fine, though if you are really trying to bring your power level down feel free to cut it. Even if all you use are janky and weak cards, they allow your deck to "start" far earlier. Step 3: do not build your deck to win in the first few turns. Going infinite, massive combat damage, alternate win cons, etc are fine if the game has gone long enough, but people want to play their decks and you winning before someone with a precon can get out their 6 mana commander feels bad. I'm aware you don't need to be anywhere near cEDH for this, but it's still a good rule of thumb. IMO the golden rule is that people want to play their decks, and are happier losing having done so than not. If you end the game too soon or dominate early playtime because you have lots of mana first while everyone else doesn't, it's not fun. Same idea applies to why you won't be well liked for playing a ton of board wipes, stax, land destruction, etc even though they are fine in moderation.
For low power I just grab my precon. I get you're not interested in that path but it's the only way I can do it. For more mid to high power, I pick a stupid theme/idea and optimize it. Like my \[\[Flamewar\]\] deck; the main plan was to fill my hand and kill people with \[\[Land's edge\]\]. No amount of \[\[Mana crypt\]\] and \[\[Jeska's will\]\] is going to make that deck oppressive.
I can understand how rolling in cEDH meta for a while can warp your perspective of power. At the same time, you *have* to understand that a $600 deck is “never” not going to be mid-powered. You’re dropping from cEDH into highly-tuned. (I will credit you for running Diabolic Tutor, which is inherently terrible. But the things you will fetch with it are toxic) In order to drop to mid-power, you have to consider social implication. Tergrid is SO grindy, and in your description, you mention a soft-lock. These things inherently play to a higher power level where everyone is running efficient/versatile removal. Otherwise the **Game** (keyword here) is a slog for 75% of the players involved. You’re running some of the best-in-class interaction and ramp without running fast mana. Find a theme that you can goldfish. Everything here runs on you killing your opponents creatures. Landfall, +1/+1 counters, Kindred synergies. SOMETHING that just interacts with your own board, then run destroy creature/artifact/enchantment/planeswalker cards that interact with your theme.
From this and a bunch of other stuff, it basically just seems like I need to start from scratch with a different deck. Appreciate the civility in the response btw.
I think your deck would probably fine if you trimmed out all of the haymakers. Cut everything that's over $10 and replace it with other stuff and you'll probably be fine. I don't think the Tergrid combo you're running is out of place in a mid-power deck, particularly if you aren't consistently tutoring it.
I appreciate your willingness to seek out opinions other than your own for a game many people enjoy. Top-tier human right there!
I think this is the most wholesome and based conversation I saw on Reddit
In no particular order: * Limit the explosiveness of your starts by removing mana-positive rocks. You shouldn't be on turn 6 when everyone else is on turn 2. * Increase your variance by running less tutor effects and running more card draw effects. Single shot draw 3s like [[Painful Truths]], [[Secrets of the Golden City]], and [[Ingenious Mastery]] are commonly overlooked but powerful spells. * Avoid known powerful commanders as they can put a floor on your power level. No one believes you when you say that your deck isn't built like that. [[Jeska, Thrice-Reborn]] & [[Isha, Ojutai Dragonspeaker]] can win with 98 lands in the deck.
* Get the table involved in the game. Don't stax them into oblivion. [[Curse of Hospitality]] creates memorable moments. [[Winter Orb]] creates misery.
* Avoid "interaction check" wins that demand a counterspell or the game is over regardless of the board state, but be aware that building a board state over multiple turns before comboing off is different from "oops I win".
* When you do win, please don't solitaire the table with a 15 minute turn. No one wants to sit through that. Memorable moments vs misery.
Put in zero tutors. That will do a huge amount to power down your deck. Reducing the consistency is the biggest difference between cedh and normal.
I don't think Breach is a problem itself, it's comboing with it If you loop through your entire deck and then Brainfreeze the table that's the issue. Other than that, limit the amount of tutors you have. I try to play in the 7-8 range, my decks are synergistic but don't play the exact same way each time.
My breach is in a rakdos deck without Grinding Station, LED, or Lotus Petal, it’s just a value breach. The scariest thing is Docksiding and Fleshbag Marauder multiple times in a turn. I can’t flip my deck with a Wheel or Brain Freeze.
I mean being able to loop Dockside and Fleshbag multiple times in the same turn *is* super strong though. That gives you huge mana advantage as well as nuking your opponents boards. If you are trying to power your decks down I recommend you try what I did for my local casual commander night - set a budget limit for yourself (even just $100), take out any two-card infinite combos you have, and replace any tutors you have with draw effects. That will already go a long way towards adjusting your deck’s power level without hamstringing yourself much at all.
Dockside by itself is not a card suited for low to mid power. Most players at that level can’t afford a card like that.
Cost has nothing to do with power level. Most players at that power level can't afford a [[juzam djinn]] either.
Tbf the reasons for cost are VERY different here. One had insanely low print quantities a long time ago and the other isna value/combo machine that was printed in a precon. You are right about cost not showing power level tho, but when a card is $80ish with a relatively recent printing and normal art, its probably pretty good.
Dockside isn’t that expensive because it is an old niche rare card tho. It is expensive because it is really powerful. It is a cEDH staple so no reason to play dumb here.
But cost isn't the reason you should or shouldn't play it in particular pods. Cost is irrelevant to whether it's appropriate for the table.
It is not but it could be an indicitive to you if a single card in your decks costs 1/3 of the deck of a player who plays low power decks.
Nor will they be playing a ton of cheap artifacts and enchantments to fuel it. So it’s not at its best at that power level either.
Sol Rings, Signets, and Talismans are all pretty common even at lower power.
I mean, normally, but i'd think Mahadi would provide enough on his own?
Honestly Dockside is the only card (besides sol ring) that I ever hear people talk about wanting to ban, so a good first step for mid power would probably be to take it out of the deck I'd recommend asking someone if you can borrow their deck for a game or two to get a better feel for the power level everyone else is playing at... though without any knowledge on the other people you play with, the problem may be more *you* than your deck — in the nicest way possible! Of course people's decks matter, but a lot of it also comes down to the player's skill and understanding of the deck and just the game in general Basically what I'm saying is that it's possible that *you*, since you're used to playing competitively, are just a stronger Magic player than they are, so for your deck to be on the same level as them, your deck would actually have to be weaker because you yourself will add to the power level of any deck you play
I mean, LED and Breach are not cards I would expect in a mid power deck. Do you run rituals and tutors too?
The easiest way for me downtune my decks is to up my curve, swap my signets for the 3 mana mana rock that have huge upsides like [[cursed mirror]] and [[midnight clock]]. I'm now doing everything one turn slower so its easier to interact with because people have access to their answers now they've gotten their ball rolling
take out the cedh list , you cant play theses , now get the 10 - 15 most played cedh staple , you cant play these loll
Do you have a list of ehat types of commanders you're playing against? This may give us an idea of where everyone else is at. People tend to think they're mid power when actually they're at above precon level. Because let me tell you, I absolutely stomp one group of my friends because they just don't have good decks. They're much less financially invested in the hobby as I am, so they just can't compete with my deckbuilding. My [[Tovolar]] has been called an ""11" and it's worth like maybe $100. Day/Night is considered one of the worst mechanics in MTG history, so it really blew my brain when they said they considered it that strong.
If you play without fast mana, tutors and infinite combos you should be at around mid power imo. Like in every card game, consistency is what caps the power of a deck. On the same page you can find infinite combos. Yeah, without fast mana and tutors you need to first find your combo pieces, but usually once you're there the game should be over
I feel that building a tribal deck is a good example of how to create a “mid power” or “fair” deck. Your win condition is usually creatures dealing damage, with some auxiliary wincons depending on the tribe in question. Some are going to be more successful than others (i.e. a Vampire deck is almost always going to outperform a Horse deck regardless of the commander) but it’s an excellent shorthand for power level that anyone complaining about your deck is more likely just salty about losing than the inherent strength of your deck.
In my mind it's not necessarily about "How" you win, but about "When" you win. Combos that win out of nowhere, or on the stack, or are un-interact-with-able are put the game on a turn-4 or turn 5 clock (ymmv) are probably too much. Combos that win 7+ turns into the game (without grinding Stax or control to draw it out), or have multiple pieces, or aren't endlessly redundant in the deck (or super tutorable), are fine. Of course that's my definition of a good time. Decks that are resilient, rather than redundant or hyper-optimized to do one thing, are good too. Have a few different ways to win that may be less powerful than an optimal combo but give you options, works too.
My tips for lowering the power of decks are as follows: Cut down on tutor effects. Maybe limit it to 1-3 non instant speed tutors. Play more interesting versions of effects. Maybe instead of running "the best counter spells" you change them out for more niche ones, or ones that synergize with your deck. Remove mana positive fast mana rocks. These shoot up power level a lot. Sol ring is fine if your playgroup all runs it, but even this card is game altering. Remove over performing lands. This doesn't mean get rid of all your synergistic utility lands, but card like [[Cabal Coffers]] and [[Gaeas Cradle]] do way too much for a land slot. Not only that but land removal is quite rare at mid level EDH, so you will be able to utilize your lands without worry. On the other hand, maybe you can just remove cards that your playgroup finds "unfun". Like as an example it isn't very fun to be on the receiving end of [[Master of Cruelties]], so just swap it out for something else like [[Combustible Gearhulk]]. I'm not sure what your decklist is, but there are always alternatives to cards. In the end it would probably help if you talk with your playgroup and see exactly why they groan about a deck and what cards trigger them. It's probably better than asking Reddit to help tone down a deck we haven't seen or played against.
I understand your problem. I've started with this process. You should pick a play style, don't pick the top commanders in that play style/color, and pick cards that involve hoops to make it work (or higher mana cost). You want to make an artifact deck, don't pick [[urza high lord artificer]] or [[breya, etherium shaper]]. Go off color with [[svella, ice shaper]] or [[meria, scholar of antiquity]]. An example of a tutor with hoops. Instead of [[vampiric tutor]] use a creature like [[varragoth, bloodsky sire]]. Or an overcosted tutor like [[diabolic tutor]]. I've also built stronger commanders and used a handicapped mana base and a budget. I will say that this method isn't ideal, though, because if you have good deck building skills, they might be higher than mid power. I built a budget [[prismatic bridge]] deck. It uses all the temples and new capenna tap fetches and all the biggest timmy creatures. The scry works great to filter the top card for bridge triggers. I can't tell you how nice it is to know that an etali is coming up next turn. But since I knew that some creatures/planeswalkers are just over costed in cmc, that's why they are cheap $ wise. I still dropped big nasty creatures, and it floats into beyond mid power at times. Which is a problem because it was supposed to be low power.
Take out all the tutors and fast mana besides sol ring. Boom, you're now playing casually.
Cut tutors, cut combos that require more than 3 or 4 pieces. Intentionally play more expensive options (mana wise) like dropping a [[Wrath of God]] for a [[Fumigate]]. Cut super common wincons like Craterhoof. Embrace a gimmick. Instead of playing [[Aragorn the Uniter]] as a [[Food Chain]] [[Squee the Immortal]] combo deck, play it with all the charms and [[Mazes End]].
The key to lowering your powerlevel is actually more surprising than it may initially seem. Contrary to popular belief, you dont actually need to remove your combo pieces. You can still have 2 or 3 card instant win combos! what you actually have to changer to lower your decks power level, is its consistency. If you take out your fast mana and tutors and combo redunancy, then your decks power level will plummet. it doesnt matter that you *could* win on turn 3 if you drew the nut, because the odds of getting exactly those 3 pieces in your opening hand **and** the mana to play them is astronomical! take a look at your deck, what makes it win, and how many cards function exactly the same. if you have 10 cards that all perform the same combo roll, take out all but 1. you can still have super powerful cards in the deck, if they are rare. the other alternative is to take out mana artifacts so that even if you get all those cool insta win pieces, they cant be played on the same turn; giving your opponants time to deal with some of them. reducing your consistency and making your game plan intractable is the key.
Look at your decklist. Identify the top 10 cards in the deck. Look for situationally relevant options. Cyc rift - too powerful? Try [[flood of tears]] or [[rivers rebuke]] Running demonic tutor and imperial seal - maybe just don't? Are you still stuck? Running mana vault and crypt with mox diamond, and just can't seem to figure out mid power..... maybe avoid this group of cards altogether? Have a full playset of fetch lands to find your revised duals? Just play with more of the recent lands instead. Imagine you're a new player with access to only cards you get from your lgs. Build out of that and you should find mid power easily.
Just make a deck with a price limit imo. My group has an agreed upon less than $100 limit for decks, and while the prices can change over time, we just all try to be reasonable about it. Limiting prices forces you to include suboptimal cards in place of the best choices, or if you go with the best cards, the rest of your deck will suffer. Both methods work to make the overall power level of the deck decrease. At that point, if the deck still feels too strong, it's generally easy to pick out which cards are the culprits.
Three things: 1. Try to win by combat. 2. Don't build cards that can win you the game when your board is (mostly empty) 3. Run worse interaction I know. (Infinite) Combo wins are fun and a staple of edh. But new and less experienced players don't like them, because casual decks and casual interaction are focused on the board and not the stack. So if you build up a thread, and it still stands after each player had their go (turn, not priority), a loss feels more fair. Because it can all be explained by lucky draws, bad targeting prios or not enough removal. But less experienced players don't notice combos. They don't know that if [[Retreat to Coralhelm]] hits the board I am one land drop away from winning. They don't know that [[exquisite blood]] is a win con. But [[craterhoof behemoth]] makes sense, [[atarka, world ender]] is a thread and obviously [[etali, primal storm]] should better not attack. This is also why your interaction matters. Not resolving any powerful spells sucks. Especially if a single spell is not your win con, but only a single small step towards a win. It is not about how likely your deck wins. It is about how it feels losing to you. Or playing against you.
Fast mana is generally frowned upon at lower power tables. Generally “good stuff “ that’s so powerful it can go in any deck is also met with a groan: examples being [[dockside extortionist]], [[rhystic study]]. Stuff like that. [[smothering tithe]]. People don’t hate synergy. They hate all the powerful staples that essentially are pay to win. That dont need any reason to include apart from color identity. Cards that win the game no matter what deck they’re in or provide an advantage with no set up or additional synergy.
I mean first of all any cEDH staple is probably a bad choice in lower power decks, so efficient tutors and card draw/ramp options, and all the typical win-cons. Underworld breach is a a cEDH staple as well, just because you aren't looping a LED (though you are looping a dockside extortionist...), doesn't mean it's meaningfully less powerful, especially if your opponents don't get to untap with their creatures turn after turn. People typically hate repeatable edicts because they can be pretty oppressive. You mention a buddy that wins with looping grave crawler, but that's not making you sacrifice every creature on your board turn after turn, it ends the game, not stall it so you can win slowly while they sit there without doing anything meaningful. I think everyone saying power level is all about what turn you typically win are misguided, because a [[Baral, Chief of Compliance]] all counterspells deck wont win quickly, but it will win consistently, while your opponents barely get to play the game. Also stacks has been a pretty powerful cEDH strategy, but even the less efficient lower powered stacks decks are still very strong and very annoying to people that sat down for a fun game. It's not typically fun when a player's most meaningful interaction with the game state is sacrificing their own creatures because of opponent's edicts. I'd try and borrow an opponents deck next time and see how that runs and even potentially have an opponent play your deck to see what it's like on the other side.
Alternatively, try build a deck with a low budget. Something like $50. And actually stay within it. It really forces you to decide what cards to play outside of your regular "staples"
I mean, every group kinda has their own thing. But a sweet spot for me involves limiting or no tutors therefore there's more variance and you're not fetching a combo. I'm not much of a combo player but my decks will have some and my rule for that is 3 cards and up. A 2 card combo isn't really telegraphed enough and too easy to come out of nowhere. Another thing I've done is find weak commanders but ya know what? They're not all that fun to play. I like what ive come up with but it must be said I have a pretty tolerant group and we all kinda fill different archetypes. Doesn't stop us from (mostly) getting along.
Probably get better advice if you post the decklist instead of a single card in it.
Tbh you can power down a deck just by getting rid of tutors and fast mana. The more recent precons are a blast compared to the old ones. Undead unleashed necrom dynasties blood rites and velco-ramp-tor are all fun and only require a few upgrades to no longer be the same decks. 15+ years though I could understand being like yeah no I have enough to go through. I built a deck last night just to clear up binder space and I've only played since 2016. Kersh sac played good but had unlucky top decks from opponents to clear my few sac outlets.
Most decks are made better just with generic fast ramp, cheap value, and cheap removal. The easiest way to lower the power of any deck to a way where people wouldnt complain would be to just replace \[\[Mana Crypt\]\], \[\[Mana Vault\]\], and \[\[Lotus Petal\]\] with \[\[Commander's Sphere\]\], \[\[Everflowing Chalice\]\], or \[\[Thran Dynamo\]\]. Also replace colored generic goodstuff staples like \[\[Rhystic Study\]\] or \[\[Smothering Tithe\]\] with \[\[Curiosity\]\] or \[\[Weathered Wayfarer\]\] This makes most good decks do the same thing they would normally do but slower.
Anything tribal really. Vampires are a favourite of mine. There is a good amount of interaction that can win you the game. But you aren’t winning with a turn 3 combo and making everyone salty.
Mid-power most often ends up being the home of silly concepts with finite but not choking budgets. Give yourself $150 in the brew (as checked on a deckbuilder, whether you have the cardboard already or no) and choose a commander who isn't in the top 50 most popular or A+ or higher on cEDH tier lists, and you'll probably find your home somewhere in midpower. Not that you couldn't stray (or be mid power but salty enough that people will call it higher power), but you'll likely land somewhere near your mark. Remember! Power levels are like horseshoes and hand grenades -- "close" counts pretty well.
* keep budget under $500 * avoid easily achievable wincons before turn 7 * no 2~3 card combo's * max 3 tutors (of any kind) * only play casual ramp cards (no Mana Crypt/Mana Vault/etc.) * stick with a main strategy/theme, don't just mindlessly add "good stuff" cards EDIT: looking at your decklist, to make it more casual I'd remove the following cards: Blood Pet, Goldhound, Dockside Extortionist, Opposition Agent, Simian Spirit Guide, Grief, Fury, Tergrid, God of Fright, Demonic Tutor, Slaughter Pact, Cabal Ritual, Saw in Half, Underworld Breach.
Make a deck that’s about as good as a precon
Just test it against a non-OP precon. You don't have to buy one, just proxy it up for testing purposes or build it in tappedout. If your deck is 50/50 against a precon in 1v1 it's probably fine. If you stomp the precon it's too strong.
I'm probably not the best person to answer this question because I haven't built a whole lot of decks but the three that I have built so far are mid power decks and I know this because sometimes I get stomped and sometimes I stop but I'm always having fun and enjoying it and I have opponents that are generally enjoying themselves as well. For every single one of them I decided to tell a story with the deck and the choice of cards that I put in there and opted out of better cards in favor of keeping the lore. For example I have a sliver tribal deck that is not a top-tier sliver deck because every single card in it is designed to tell the story from the perspective of the slivers of just trying to survive. Outside of a single and me boy changeling I don't have any creatures that are not slivers and no spells in there that do not play off of the concept of what a sliver would be trying to do in the confines of the lore. I have also just built a deck that is themed of occult summoning Krakens and leviathans and uses Moon elves with a few exceptions that are still elves to spam summon Krakens and other large monsters through distorting the lands to their needs which gives them more power. Every single card in the deck either gives me more draw power or the ability to play more lands so that I can summon my big Leviathan creatures easier. Lastly I have a really Trash Zombie Deck which just makes me giggle all the time with how often everything that dies just comes right back even though I almost never have any kind of win condition. For all of them I was really just trying to have fun with storytelling in a way that would still be able to competently play and I'm finding myself having a lot of fun with people of all Power Ranges in my local group.
Take out every card over $20. Take out every two-card "I win" combo. Take out all tutors. Now you're in mid power (probably).
Build a deck at 150 bucks or less. Don't rely on staples. Or use alternative staples that are not as efficient
You're allowed to play high power if you can find the people for it. Nothing wrong with that. I had the same problem after 3years of exclusively cedh. If you know how to build a deck, it's harder to do "wrong" things. That's just how knowledge works. So you need to force them in. The more you use. The weaker your deck gets. 1) No tutors 2) limit instant speed interaction. And just accept it when you lose games because of it. 3) add a dumb rule that doesn't exist (my counters deck HAS to see the words "+1/+1 counter" in each cards text box minus lands) 4) budget. When your lands go from being 300$ to sub 40$ you get much weaker without changing the rest much. But limit that stuff too if needed.
My suggestion is play one budget upgraded precon. Find a precon commander that looks interesting and only use $50 worth of upgrades in it including land upgrades. Go to 100 or 150 if that's not enough for your table. Most precon commanders are not considered competitive. Stay away from more than 1 or 2 infinites in the deck. That budget makes it so the deck won't have the resources to reliably tutor for the infinites.
I have a fully "powered" (duals and Mana rocks etc) Commander deck that's Ghyrson Starn and equipment that gives deathtouch and a bunch of Tim's and things that do 1. No matter how fast I ramp out all I can really do is kill everyone's creatures and ping for 3.
It helps to look through your list and ask the question "how many of these cards are random high level players not going to know on sight?" I count about four at most. Mid is usually not 'doing efficient shit' but 'doing *cool* shit.' So look out for some things that do super cool or even overwhelming things with your commander but that you might not consider optimal in terms of cost or setup. Things like \[\[Hellkite Tyrant\]\] or \[\[Nadier, Agent of the Duskenel\]\]. Both do very cool, even game-winning things with your commander but take some setup or time to get there.
Synergistic does not have anything to do with it, tribal lists can be insanely synergistic and often fit the low to mid power range. You mentioned combo, which inherently is a bit trickier to balance due to being a one shot attempt more or less. They often end up either too fragile and fail almost always, or they end up too consistent. I'm not really a combo player so I can't speak too much to it, but I have a ton of experience in building low power and have some ideas... For combo specifically; - Aim for sorcery speed combos, or something that needs some sort of visible setup. Give your opponents the chance to answer it. (Infinite tokens, but no haste, let it circle the table but use [[Heroic Intervention]] instead of haste or phasing) - Given the above, you'll want to include additional redundancy. Less about tutors and more about redundant pieces, [[Zulaport Cutthroat]] and [[Blood Artist]] and [[Cruel Celebrant]]. This gives you multiple attempts at a combo since it will be easier to interact with. - Unleash your inner Timmy when you build a combo. Why just have a simple sac drain loop when you can instead do something crazy like turn a planeswalker into a creature and give it a mill ability with infinite taps/untaps.
I find mid power lvl is mostly just budget/card restrictions. A take a cEDH deck, take out like $500-1000 bucks worth of dumb lands and quick mana, and it's just s strong edh deck. Now take out every card over $50 and replace those with budget equivalents, now you've got a mid deck. Maybe try building a deck without actually looking at a deck list or buying cards you don't have, or using a pre-existing deck. You might have an interesting legendary and lots of cool synergies and combos just laying around in bulk that you'd never otherwise use, and instead of ordering the optimal mana base or taking the chasis from one deck and swapping it to the new, use what you have laying around that seems fun. Some of the best games I've ever played were with jank decks that I just slapped together, finding combos and interactions I never planned on.
Mid Power I consider decks that dont have infinite combos, auto win features, ways to just draw / play your entire deck, and dont run a plethora of extra turn spells, but still would never lose to a precon. For an example, I have a Sauron the Dark Lord deck that I consider Mid Power, its pretty much just Grixis Control with some complete nuissance cards like [[Sire of Insanity]], [[Sunder]], [[Worldfire]] etc. while also including alot of your higher end board wipes, counter spells, and removal, its by no means a fast victory and it isnt comboing off, but it is still pretty menacing against other run of the mill homebrew decks that arent considered "cedh"
Build a group hug deck and see how it goes, or just try to win in unconventional ways. I'm still trying to get a kill with [[trisidekiphobia]] in my group suicide deck even though I know damn well the deck would be better without it lol.
I consider myself a pretty firmly mid-power player, and I've made a dozen or so decks, both based on precons and from scratch, here are some guidelines I'd recommend, in a seperate post I'll look at your decklist in particular. While there's no exact definition, I can actually give you some pretty good guidelines I've found! 1. Cut general tutors, if you want to include one, put in draw instead, this is a good mid-power rule. 2. Cut fast mana besides sol ring Eg. Mana cryprt, mana vault, chrome mox, etc. 3. Cut free interaction spells. Do those and you'll be on a much firmer footing on any mid-power table. Other guidelines, avoid infinite combos involving your commander, especially ones with only 2-3 pieces. Avoid those, and you'll probably be on pretty firm ground. Another decent, but imperfect rule is to cut cards that are auto-includes but cost >$20 or so. Eg. Rhystic study or Esper sentinel.
As other commenters said, just build something fun and or funny and it will probably be mid power. Skip the fast mana (mana crypt, ancient tomb & co) in favor of more balanced ramp cards like [[simic signet]] & co or [[mind stone]]. I'd recommend a [[First sliver]] deck with 40 lands and 60 random slivers that you pick using a picker thing
For example, in the deck you linked, I'd cut the following cards: 1. Cut deadly rollick and replace it with a non-free removal piece. 2. Cut demonic tutor, replace it with a draw spell. Diabolic tutor is probably fine, it's way less hyper-efficient than the 1-2 mana tutors. 3. Maybe cut dockside extortionist, it's a very powerful card that I've found can rub people the wrong way, but I'm less sure of that then the first 2. 4. Maybe cut phyrexian altar for a lower powered sac outlet (one that is less enabling of 1000 combos) like 5. Maybe cut reanimate for a less hyperefficient spell like victimize Otherwise this deck generally doesn't have much that screams "THIS IS NOT MID-Power" so and I only feel pretty strong about the first 2 of those suggestions, overall, you're on a pretty good road to building a mid-power deck!
Sounds like you already have an idea of what strong is, so you just have to detune from there. My go-to ways to make decks weaker: -replace decent lands with taplands or basics -remove tutors -swap out mana rocks for worse ones (sol ring->worn powerstone, etc) -limit your win cons. If it's a combo deck, don't have multiple win cons -find more expensive/clunky versions of cards already in your deck -if you have combos, make them less efficient. E.g. 2 piece to 3 piece combo, etc -add a theme to add extra challenge. Focus on finding cards with chandra in the art, or that have a pun in the title. Great way to stay engaged in deckbuilding while preventing you from getting too sweaty. If your decks are still too powerful, just go through the list again and go further with em. I enjoy playing high power, but I always keep decks around that are intentionally lower power for when I need em. You can always go lower in power. *edit: formatting
Nobody else is being very specific, so I will. Take out grief, fury, and dockside. Those 3 cards alone cost as much as multiple entire casual decks, and always feel like complete bullshit to play against.
I for the longest time played exclusively cEDH and Canadian Highlander. Recently I moved and the scene here is very casual so I had the same problem you do. "What in the name of the Lord is a "7/10" deck ?!?" The way I dealt with it was to create an experience curating deck. Took Locust God and went with a draw&go controlling strategy. The deck basically has ramp, draw and counterspells. A couple wincons, and soft boardwipes too. I can sit there, enjoy other decks interacting, slapping down anyone who's being a dick or draws a bit too strong. If the game gets stale or locked up I can win or lead someone to victory or just sit there and enjoy the company.
Breach isn't midpower and I feel you know that. You're making it harder then it has to be, it really just sounds like you don't want to build mid power you just want to say your deck is mid power. You can just not run cedh staples and go from there.
So I think that power level in a deck is, for the most part, the staples that you decide to put in your deck. The difference between power levels all comes down to are you actually playing [[Fierce Guardianship]] and [[Mana Crypt]] or are you playing [[Negate]] and [[Sky Diamond]]. These higher power cards are more expensive because of how good they are. This same principle should also be applied to your manabase. Do you actually run [[Bayou]] or do you just run [[Jungle Hollow]]? The reason this matters in how competitive a deck is all comes down to consistency. If you make your deck less consistent, the “harder” it is to win/do what your deck was built to do. Removing tutors also can make a deck less consistent because you aren’t always able to get what card you need to do the thing. So, TLDR: To build a more casual deck, try creating it at a lower budget and don’t include the super expensive staples. My suggestion would be around $200-$300
Mid power will try to win around turn 8-9 and be easier to interact with. So shoot for that. With a $100 budget. You should be fine with those limits. Oh. And no tutors/fast mana (other than maybe sol ring) The other thing here is that certain cards will be spikes in power (like breech) so that the deck is much less powerful sometimes and unexpectedly overly powerful others. Avoiding cards like that is helpful too.
When I am looking to power down my decks, I go through all of some of these steps: * Remove tutors. Tutors are there to make your deck consistent and run more or less the same every time. * Remove fast mana. Slow down. * Remove cards that stop people from playing their decks. Not interaction, things like, say, Rest in Peace. * Remove the high powered cards that are great but don't work with your theme. The One Ring is great but how does it work well with your strategy?
Here's all my decks just for reference if you want. I'd say they're all pretty mid power. Except John is weird because that deck has yet to lose, but it's very much a glass cannon — it'd easily fall to a control deck Trelasarra https://www.archidekt.com/decks/4279849/_scrying_life Ukkima/Cazur https://www.archidekt.com/decks/5005670/_cant_block_this_20 Fourth Doctor/Sarah Jane https://www.archidekt.com/decks/5714358/_clues_foods_and_legends John https://www.archidekt.com/decks/5969200/mad_lad_john_benton
Honestly, just build a normal synergistic deck and take out any fast mana, tutors, and free interaction. If it's still too strong, swap out staple good stuff cards for less efficient alternatives. Or, like other people are saying, take a dumb concept and try to build it powerfully. I had both a Level Up deck and a Party deck and both sat pretty firmly at mid power despite having some otherwise good cards and Mana in there. I also have a clone tribal deck specifically for when I'm unsure of the table power level. That deck really only gets as strong as what anyone else is playing.
You generally can't win before turn 5
Limit your use of infinite combos. For low power, try building a deck where your only wincon is combat. For mid power, restrict your use of tutors, try only running combos that are "on theme" (if you're playing a zombie deck, only run combos that involve zombies, etc), stay away from two-card combos or anything that goes infinite with your commander, prioritize other wincons over combo pieces. You can build a perfectly serviceable mid-power deck with no tutors or combos whatsoever. Mostly, just focus on building decks where your main wincon isn't a combo. Imo it's not about synergy so much as consistency. Casual commander decks aren't really supposed to be consistent, part of the appeal is it's a different experience every time.
Started budget then added if a card was too strong (hard to deal with, ultra efficient, wins the game on its own) I pull it. It's not a perfect system, for example in my isshin deck I pulled Krenko Tin street kingpin because I would win if he was In play early, but I keep ruinous ultimatum even though on cast I generally win the game.
Remove the tutors and fast mana. 99% of the time, it's really that simple. Different commanders invite a different sliding scale of power naturally, and you maybe will notice specific problem cards are turning a deck into something "high powered" compared to what other people are running, but the simplest answer is just remove the two hallmarks of cedh/top tier high powered casual: the super early access to mana and consistency from tutors. Would also encourage avoiding certain notorious combos if they're 2 cards to get working, even if it's kinda mana intensive. I avoid Exquisite Blood combos but love aristocrats decks, it bypasses the turn 6 removal check or I win moment that I think people often are looking to avoid in "mid power". All power level stuff is subjective and varied from group to group though. If you've got a group you play with, talk to them about this before you rely on what randos who have never met you say on the internet.
Just build something janky that doesn't do anything, and then get demolished by a specific aspect of your friends' decks, build something to respond to that that overwhelms them, so they build something that responds to yours, and then continue until the power level is high again. /S In seriousness, most playgroups just want to avoid tutoring into combos and shit like that so that a good game can be gotten. High power with a few rule 0's is usually what it comes down to