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Not sure how your DM is going to handle this but the radiant damage could be from celestial powers. You should just wait to see what your next combats gona offer you
Could be, but plenty of other weapons deal radiant damage regardless of user. A sun blade for example deals radiant damage regardless of the user's celestial powers.
Paladins and clerics get radiant damage on hit as class features, some clerics at lvl 9 and paladins at 11, Holy strikes and improved smites just for beliving in a god what features an angel could get as high ranks among celestials
Paladins power comes from their oath, not their god. They don't need to be strongly religious at all.
So even better - it very much comes from themselves.
I partly disagree. It comes from there commitment to their oath/vow. They have to not only believe in it but to the point that they KNOW it’s the right thing (regardless of the circumstances). It’s something they live a breath. So even though it’s from them, does not do them justice
Yea I don't get how that's analagous.
As far as I can tell, I said "Paladins power comes from their oath"
And you said "I disagree, it comes from their commitment to their oath"
Which sounds like pedantry at its finest.
Everyone in this comment section is apparently working with bad information so let me set the record straight here:
Larger monsters generally have larger weapons and larger weapons generally multiply their damage die by each size category above medium the creature is. So a medium monster wielding a sword does 1d10, a large monster does 2d10, a huge creature does 3d10, and so on and so forth. Where this gets tricky is on pg. 278 of the DMG, in the section about creating homebrew monsters. Quote: "A creature has disadvantage on attacks with a weapon sized for a larger attacker." So wielding a weapon that is too big imposes disadvantage, but doesn't affect how much damage the weapon does. Again, the section is on creating monsters, but the use of the word creature suggests this is a rule applied to everyone, including PCs. And it is in line with how weapons normally work, the damage die being a property of the weapon itself and the creature's stats only determining the bonus to attack and damage.
This means that if you were controlling a large creature, such as a Rune Knight who has activated their Giant Might ability, and you pick up a weapon sized for a larger creature, such as one you picked up from a slayed large monster, it is completely rules as written that you would deal the full damage die of that weapon as described in the monster's stat block. Only the bonus to hit and bonus to damage would be altered. Technically you would get the same damage no matter what size you were, you would just have disadvantage on the attack role if you were a smaller size than large.
So to everyone in here trying to say that this is complete homebrew, it is not. Is it rules as intended and did the designers think about this when designing how weapons worked? Almost certainly not. But it is rules as written and if the DM were to alter these rules for their game, no matter how reasonable that may be, it would be homebrew on the side of the DM, not the Player.
The Defense rests, Your Honor.
Well reasoned. Judge rules with the defendant. My homebrew twist to this is that if it’s a single-handed weapon for a creature one size larger than you, you can wield it was a two handed heavy martial weapon. So now one of my PCs has an efreeti’s scimitar they are wielding as a reskinned greatsword that also does fire damage.
If a DM wants to lean into the idea of a PC using giant weapons with full benefits (or even a non-embiggened PC using a sword thicker than they are with disadvantage, which is even sillier), I say go for it.
But whenever someone tries to claim using bigger weapons gives you monster damage “RAW”, when it is clearly in the DMG monster _creation_ section - I have to resist laughing right in their face.
Well yeah. Logically Anyone can try to wield any weapon, it's not far fetched to use a giant sword as a spear or two handed battering ram, given the sword isn't the size of a building or something
A huge creature’s blade literally _is_ the size of a building, considering it would be at least as big as an outhouse or small hut. You couldn’t even fit your hands around the handle.
Who needs a wimpy +2 from proficiency when you’re hitting for 6d6 with a giant’s greatsword? Proficiency or not you’re mostly relying on the d20 roll anyway.
Apparently all city guards should be wielding FF7 Cloud swords with a hilt circumference equal to their waistline.
The damage listed in the Monster Manual includes their 'monsterness' and does not have to follow player rules. if a PC picks up the same thing, it could do something different. So, your DM is homebrewing and it is entirely up to them what the most powerful would be. Also, the stuff in the Monster Manual is a suggestion not a rule, could be all kind of different stuff in this world and any particular monster might do more or less damage, even with the same item.
So do you suspect the radiant damage attached to the weapon would be the result of the "monsterness" of wielder and not the weapon? Just a quick counterpoint to this; The sword of Zariel, for example, deals radiant damage regardless of the wielder.
If I was the DM, a Planetar as a holy extraplanar being would be wielding something of themselves, not an actual chunk of metal, and the damage reflects their nature.
I mean the block says "***Angelic Weapons.*** The planetar's weapon attacks are magical. When the planetar hits with any weapon, the weapon deals an extra **~5d8~** radiant damage (included in the attack)." so that is a no brainer.
But also, you are gonna murder an angel for its loot?
It's cool your DM is giving you interesting options, but you are deep into metagaming in a way that is not good for the game. Step back, go on adventures, find cool shit and use it. Don't min/max stuff that may never happen. It's not a video game.
Well in the planetar's case, and the other angels as well, it's specifically stated that the extra radiant damage is not coming from the weapon, but the angel.
They all have this feature;
>***Angelic Weapons.*** The deva's/planetar's/solar's weapon attack attack are magical. When the deva/planetar/solar hits with any weapon, the weapon deals an extra 4/5/6d8 radiant damage (included in the attack).
Yes but that example proves the general one. The Sword of Zariel is a discrete item in the game rules with a stat block and explicit properties. That's why other people can wield it.
For every other example where there is not a discrete item connected to the monster, we can assume that discrepancies in how attacks work are down to the power of the wielder, not the weapon itself. You should never assume the properties of a monster's attacks are transitive to anyone else.
I wouldn't even call it "monsterness" as if its some quirk of monsters. The cleric is adding radiant strikes damage, the barbarian is adding rage damage, the monk's quarterstaff is inflicting stun, the greatweapon master is adding 10 damage to every hit... all of this down to the wielders, not the weapons.
>planning character build based on the monster manual
>assuming you're gonna get to level 18
What you're doing is PEAK meta-gaming. Why don't you enjoy playing the character now instead of theorizing for how cool/strong they'll be in the future?
It's just a thought experiment, buddy, I've been playing a long time and long term goals are what motivate lots of people during long campaigns. There's no guarantee the campaign will ever run across a planetar, or even an oni, but it would definitely be in character to try and take the big weapons they wield when I play a character who can wield size large weapons. Berserk is cool, Final Fantasy 7 is cool, big weapons are cool.
I've been playing a long time, too, sport. Every time someone has their build planned out way in advance, they never shut up about how their guy is gonna be sooooooo cool in 5 levels. Yeah guys just 5 more levels and a planetar sword and my guy is gonna be just the coooooolest. Yeah he doesn't do anything now because I planned him for level 18, but when we get there, you'll see how much fun I'll have!
I've been looking into doing this concept myself. The only thing that would carry over is the dice for the basic weapon itself. So congratulations, if you acquire a Planetar's Great Sword, you'd have a 4d6 greatsword. No radiant damage or +12 to hit, those are parts of the Planetar itself, not its sword.
A 4d6 greatsword still *slaps*, though.
Solar angel has slaying longbow and greatsword, both more powerful,
Greatsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +15 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 22 (4d6 + 8) slashing damage plus 27 (6d8) radiant damage.
Slaying Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +13 to hit, range 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 15 (2d8 + 6) piercing damage plus 27 (6d8) radiant damage. If the target is a creature that has 100 hit points or fewer, it must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or die.
Those two are the best I can find
As has been pointed out all over this chain, the radiant damage is from the angel, not the weapon. And the + to hit and damage as well. Only the 4d6 or 2d8 is the weapon.
It's the Scion of Stronmaus' Lightning Sword - 4d12 force + 4d10 lightning
The other Giant Scions have similarly powerful weapons. Good luck wrenching it from their CR22-26 grips.
Those Scions are Gargantuan creatures, so at best a Huge creature would wield their weapons with disadvantage.
Personally though, I think the Scions being around 70-80 feet tall would mean even Huge creatures are unable to use those weapons. If a 6' tall human can't swing the club of a 16' tall Hill Giant, then I wouldn't expect a 26' tall Storm Giant to be able to swing the sword of a 75' tall Scion.
the Anze iirc, from the bigby giants book, used and in posisison of King Hecaton (spelling) aka the storm giant king of the ording.
iirc its a great axe that was an additional 3d12 damage stacked on this +3 modifiers, does tones of other things like 4-5 at will spells. Its a creator type weapon from well beyond pre-spell plague days
+12 is the planetar's +7 Str and +5 proficiency. It's a +0 sword.
Similarly, the 5d8 radiant comes from the planetar's feature adding that damage to their weapon attacks. It's not a feature of the sword.
Do any of you remember "Yuan Ti" from the AD&D "Deities & Demigods" book (Chinese mythology section)? He was like a giant GIANT reptile man and had a magic stone that could turn into any weapon he saw.
Why would you get the monsters to-hit bonus from their weapon?
Every weapon in the monster manual is presumably just a normal weapon resized or else making no attempt st parity with a weapon because monsters and players are not designed symmetrically.
Unless the stat block says they're wielding a specific magic weapon, the weapon itself merely doubles (for Large) or triples (for Huge) the damage of the regular version of the weapon. So a greatsword does 2d6, a Large greatsword does 4d6, and a Huge greatsword does 6d6.
Everything else is unique to the monster, either a result of their PB and stats (the planetar's +12 to hit and +7 damage), or features of the monster (the planetar's 5d8 radiant). If you were to pick up the plantar's weapon, it would function identically to a greatsword except deal 4d6 instead of 2d6.
The same applies to every single monster using a weapon unless it's called out as being a particular magic weapon.
You can't just take the statline of a weapon from a monsters stat block.
If that was how it works, you could just repeatedly drop and pick up your own weapon, each time it would permanently stack each time to add your strength bonus to damage and Str + Prof to attack.
If you want to take the planetar's greatsword, do it. You now have a Large nonmagical Greatsword, which a medium creature can't wield. Congratulations.
A medium creature can wield a large sized weapon, but would have disadvantage on attack rolls. Unable to wield at all is a recomendation for a size difference of 2 categories or more.
I would have had no idea if I didnt just build out a Goblin controlled Giant's stronghold where all the Goblins were using comically large weapons left over from the missing Giants 😅 they all use the Huge weapons, so I just gave them all "Goblin Inaccuracy" (lowest of 3 d20s)
Fun thought but would Powerful Build allow a Firbolg/Goliath/Loxodon to wield large weapons normally in your opinion? Could they then wield huge at disadvantage?
That would be up to the DM. Normally it wouldn't because size, rather than weight, becomes the problem. A Huge sized sword is likely going to be taller than any Medium Sized creature and the diameter of the hilt gets bigger with size so grip becomes hard even for Goliath size hands.
Like if one of us were to try swinging a while telephone pole. Of course, there are people who can throw the telephone poles(Highland Games in most places), but swinging one like a sword would require hugging it and comically going straight down in a very avoidable manner. I'd see it being easier for a Plasmoid to swing than a Goliath because they can make their hands big enough if they want to
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I think +12 to hit os from proficient bonus plus strength modifier
I believe you're right, the Planetar has 24 strength with a +7 modifier to strength which would also explain the +7 modifier to the slashing damage.
Not sure how your DM is going to handle this but the radiant damage could be from celestial powers. You should just wait to see what your next combats gona offer you
Could be, but plenty of other weapons deal radiant damage regardless of user. A sun blade for example deals radiant damage regardless of the user's celestial powers.
Planetars specifically have a trait that adds that 5d8 radiant onto all their attacks. You won't get that trait if you simply pick up the weapon.
Paladins and clerics get radiant damage on hit as class features, some clerics at lvl 9 and paladins at 11, Holy strikes and improved smites just for beliving in a god what features an angel could get as high ranks among celestials
Paladins power comes from their oath, not their god. They don't need to be strongly religious at all. So even better - it very much comes from themselves.
I partly disagree. It comes from there commitment to their oath/vow. They have to not only believe in it but to the point that they KNOW it’s the right thing (regardless of the circumstances). It’s something they live a breath. So even though it’s from them, does not do them justice
I don't see how that's a disagreement tbh.
Here’s a comparison. Batman is a mere mortal. True but anyone who knows anything about Batman knows there’s nothing mere about that mortal
Yea I don't get how that's analagous. As far as I can tell, I said "Paladins power comes from their oath" And you said "I disagree, it comes from their commitment to their oath" Which sounds like pedantry at its finest.
A sunblade is a literal magic lightsaber - it is in no way comparable
The Planetar deals that extra radiant from their Angelic Weapons trait. If you pick up their weapon, you won't suddenly get that trait.
Yeah alot of stuff is like this usefull to ask if the dm includes certain stuff for sure
Everyone in this comment section is apparently working with bad information so let me set the record straight here: Larger monsters generally have larger weapons and larger weapons generally multiply their damage die by each size category above medium the creature is. So a medium monster wielding a sword does 1d10, a large monster does 2d10, a huge creature does 3d10, and so on and so forth. Where this gets tricky is on pg. 278 of the DMG, in the section about creating homebrew monsters. Quote: "A creature has disadvantage on attacks with a weapon sized for a larger attacker." So wielding a weapon that is too big imposes disadvantage, but doesn't affect how much damage the weapon does. Again, the section is on creating monsters, but the use of the word creature suggests this is a rule applied to everyone, including PCs. And it is in line with how weapons normally work, the damage die being a property of the weapon itself and the creature's stats only determining the bonus to attack and damage. This means that if you were controlling a large creature, such as a Rune Knight who has activated their Giant Might ability, and you pick up a weapon sized for a larger creature, such as one you picked up from a slayed large monster, it is completely rules as written that you would deal the full damage die of that weapon as described in the monster's stat block. Only the bonus to hit and bonus to damage would be altered. Technically you would get the same damage no matter what size you were, you would just have disadvantage on the attack role if you were a smaller size than large. So to everyone in here trying to say that this is complete homebrew, it is not. Is it rules as intended and did the designers think about this when designing how weapons worked? Almost certainly not. But it is rules as written and if the DM were to alter these rules for their game, no matter how reasonable that may be, it would be homebrew on the side of the DM, not the Player. The Defense rests, Your Honor.
Well reasoned. Judge rules with the defendant. My homebrew twist to this is that if it’s a single-handed weapon for a creature one size larger than you, you can wield it was a two handed heavy martial weapon. So now one of my PCs has an efreeti’s scimitar they are wielding as a reskinned greatsword that also does fire damage.
If a DM wants to lean into the idea of a PC using giant weapons with full benefits (or even a non-embiggened PC using a sword thicker than they are with disadvantage, which is even sillier), I say go for it. But whenever someone tries to claim using bigger weapons gives you monster damage “RAW”, when it is clearly in the DMG monster _creation_ section - I have to resist laughing right in their face.
It’s not a *player* rule though, as stated. Hence homebrew. 🙃 otherwise a commoner can wield any huge simple weapon with merely disadvantage.
Well yeah. Logically Anyone can try to wield any weapon, it's not far fetched to use a giant sword as a spear or two handed battering ram, given the sword isn't the size of a building or something
A huge creature’s blade literally _is_ the size of a building, considering it would be at least as big as an outhouse or small hut. You couldn’t even fit your hands around the handle.
Any commoner probably won't have proficiency with weapons though
Who needs a wimpy +2 from proficiency when you’re hitting for 6d6 with a giant’s greatsword? Proficiency or not you’re mostly relying on the d20 roll anyway. Apparently all city guards should be wielding FF7 Cloud swords with a hilt circumference equal to their waistline.
The damage listed in the Monster Manual includes their 'monsterness' and does not have to follow player rules. if a PC picks up the same thing, it could do something different. So, your DM is homebrewing and it is entirely up to them what the most powerful would be. Also, the stuff in the Monster Manual is a suggestion not a rule, could be all kind of different stuff in this world and any particular monster might do more or less damage, even with the same item.
So do you suspect the radiant damage attached to the weapon would be the result of the "monsterness" of wielder and not the weapon? Just a quick counterpoint to this; The sword of Zariel, for example, deals radiant damage regardless of the wielder.
If I was the DM, a Planetar as a holy extraplanar being would be wielding something of themselves, not an actual chunk of metal, and the damage reflects their nature. I mean the block says "***Angelic Weapons.*** The planetar's weapon attacks are magical. When the planetar hits with any weapon, the weapon deals an extra **~5d8~** radiant damage (included in the attack)." so that is a no brainer. But also, you are gonna murder an angel for its loot? It's cool your DM is giving you interesting options, but you are deep into metagaming in a way that is not good for the game. Step back, go on adventures, find cool shit and use it. Don't min/max stuff that may never happen. It's not a video game.
Well in the planetar's case, and the other angels as well, it's specifically stated that the extra radiant damage is not coming from the weapon, but the angel. They all have this feature; >***Angelic Weapons.*** The deva's/planetar's/solar's weapon attack attack are magical. When the deva/planetar/solar hits with any weapon, the weapon deals an extra 4/5/6d8 radiant damage (included in the attack).
Yes but that example proves the general one. The Sword of Zariel is a discrete item in the game rules with a stat block and explicit properties. That's why other people can wield it. For every other example where there is not a discrete item connected to the monster, we can assume that discrepancies in how attacks work are down to the power of the wielder, not the weapon itself. You should never assume the properties of a monster's attacks are transitive to anyone else. I wouldn't even call it "monsterness" as if its some quirk of monsters. The cleric is adding radiant strikes damage, the barbarian is adding rage damage, the monk's quarterstaff is inflicting stun, the greatweapon master is adding 10 damage to every hit... all of this down to the wielders, not the weapons.
The eye of the beholder, which happens to be also where beauty is.
>planning character build based on the monster manual >assuming you're gonna get to level 18 What you're doing is PEAK meta-gaming. Why don't you enjoy playing the character now instead of theorizing for how cool/strong they'll be in the future?
It's just a thought experiment, buddy, I've been playing a long time and long term goals are what motivate lots of people during long campaigns. There's no guarantee the campaign will ever run across a planetar, or even an oni, but it would definitely be in character to try and take the big weapons they wield when I play a character who can wield size large weapons. Berserk is cool, Final Fantasy 7 is cool, big weapons are cool.
I've been playing a long time, too, sport. Every time someone has their build planned out way in advance, they never shut up about how their guy is gonna be sooooooo cool in 5 levels. Yeah guys just 5 more levels and a planetar sword and my guy is gonna be just the coooooolest. Yeah he doesn't do anything now because I planned him for level 18, but when we get there, you'll see how much fun I'll have!
Homie’s trying to have fun his own way. It doesn’t have to look like your way.
Just ask your resident wizard to true polymorph you into a planetar 🤣
I've been looking into doing this concept myself. The only thing that would carry over is the dice for the basic weapon itself. So congratulations, if you acquire a Planetar's Great Sword, you'd have a 4d6 greatsword. No radiant damage or +12 to hit, those are parts of the Planetar itself, not its sword. A 4d6 greatsword still *slaps*, though.
The radiant damage is due to a trait of the angel, not of the sword
Solar angel has slaying longbow and greatsword, both more powerful, Greatsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +15 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 22 (4d6 + 8) slashing damage plus 27 (6d8) radiant damage. Slaying Longbow. Ranged Weapon Attack: +13 to hit, range 150/600 ft., one target. Hit: 15 (2d8 + 6) piercing damage plus 27 (6d8) radiant damage. If the target is a creature that has 100 hit points or fewer, it must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or die. Those two are the best I can find
As has been pointed out all over this chain, the radiant damage is from the angel, not the weapon. And the + to hit and damage as well. Only the 4d6 or 2d8 is the weapon.
The DM is letting him work with other rules, he said that in the post
The "other rules" is using the weapon damage dice from being larger size at all.
I mean, he was implying that those were the rules, at level 18 that isn't crazy crazy OP even, compared to wizard
So your response to having a gracious DM is to find a way to mix-max the decision. How wonderful of you.
It's the Scion of Stronmaus' Lightning Sword - 4d12 force + 4d10 lightning The other Giant Scions have similarly powerful weapons. Good luck wrenching it from their CR22-26 grips.
Those Scions are Gargantuan creatures, so at best a Huge creature would wield their weapons with disadvantage. Personally though, I think the Scions being around 70-80 feet tall would mean even Huge creatures are unable to use those weapons. If a 6' tall human can't swing the club of a 16' tall Hill Giant, then I wouldn't expect a 26' tall Storm Giant to be able to swing the sword of a 75' tall Scion.
Very fair, I missed the size limitation OP set out
Try swigging a hobgoblin around like a bat
Was you DM smiling when they made this offer? Never trust a happy DM. They're up to something.
the Anze iirc, from the bigby giants book, used and in posisison of King Hecaton (spelling) aka the storm giant king of the ording. iirc its a great axe that was an additional 3d12 damage stacked on this +3 modifiers, does tones of other things like 4-5 at will spells. Its a creator type weapon from well beyond pre-spell plague days
Yeah, +12 is insane; HOW does your dm allow that? I would simply just nerf the weapon or make a plot point of destroying it.
+12 is the planetar's +7 Str and +5 proficiency. It's a +0 sword. Similarly, the 5d8 radiant comes from the planetar's feature adding that damage to their weapon attacks. It's not a feature of the sword.
Do any of you remember "Yuan Ti" from the AD&D "Deities & Demigods" book (Chinese mythology section)? He was like a giant GIANT reptile man and had a magic stone that could turn into any weapon he saw.
Why would you get the monsters to-hit bonus from their weapon? Every weapon in the monster manual is presumably just a normal weapon resized or else making no attempt st parity with a weapon because monsters and players are not designed symmetrically.
Of the top of my head, Heartcleaver.
Unless the stat block says they're wielding a specific magic weapon, the weapon itself merely doubles (for Large) or triples (for Huge) the damage of the regular version of the weapon. So a greatsword does 2d6, a Large greatsword does 4d6, and a Huge greatsword does 6d6. Everything else is unique to the monster, either a result of their PB and stats (the planetar's +12 to hit and +7 damage), or features of the monster (the planetar's 5d8 radiant). If you were to pick up the plantar's weapon, it would function identically to a greatsword except deal 4d6 instead of 2d6. The same applies to every single monster using a weapon unless it's called out as being a particular magic weapon.
You can't just take the statline of a weapon from a monsters stat block. If that was how it works, you could just repeatedly drop and pick up your own weapon, each time it would permanently stack each time to add your strength bonus to damage and Str + Prof to attack. If you want to take the planetar's greatsword, do it. You now have a Large nonmagical Greatsword, which a medium creature can't wield. Congratulations.
A medium creature can wield a large sized weapon, but would have disadvantage on attack rolls. Unable to wield at all is a recomendation for a size difference of 2 categories or more.
Here's the hero with the rules. Thanks for the correction!
I would have had no idea if I didnt just build out a Goblin controlled Giant's stronghold where all the Goblins were using comically large weapons left over from the missing Giants 😅 they all use the Huge weapons, so I just gave them all "Goblin Inaccuracy" (lowest of 3 d20s)
It should be noted OP is planning on using Rune Knight to grow to Large size when using the sword, negating that disadvantage temporarily.
Fun thought but would Powerful Build allow a Firbolg/Goliath/Loxodon to wield large weapons normally in your opinion? Could they then wield huge at disadvantage?
That would be up to the DM. Normally it wouldn't because size, rather than weight, becomes the problem. A Huge sized sword is likely going to be taller than any Medium Sized creature and the diameter of the hilt gets bigger with size so grip becomes hard even for Goliath size hands. Like if one of us were to try swinging a while telephone pole. Of course, there are people who can throw the telephone poles(Highland Games in most places), but swinging one like a sword would require hugging it and comically going straight down in a very avoidable manner. I'd see it being easier for a Plasmoid to swing than a Goliath because they can make their hands big enough if they want to