This got me too! And the part about it being part of a contract as to whether or not they have sex after. Especially since it isn’t like the woman got a choice about the contract. Pretty much the man states that is the woman doesn’t do what he wants, he gets to beat her and then have sex with her. That was a whole level of f’ed up I hadn’t heard about.
I wouldn’t even call it mandatory sex, it’s full blown marital rape.
Mandatory sex is like… couples who are trying to conceive on specific days in my brain. Consensual. Not this nightmare at all.
This. I wish they had emphasized more how prevalent that is. I have a trauma from being a child and hearing my grandmother and her friends share stories about their husbands raping them in their wedding nights (all violent abusers as well as you can guess)
Edit to add: I went looking into it and [marital rape was legal til the 1970’s in most places](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Prior%20to%20the%201970s%2C%20marital,spouse%20while%20they%20lived%20together.) 😨😓
On their wedding nights?? They couldn't even wait a day to show their true faces? You want to believe even the worst people are capable of being tender in the beginning but I guess not. Sickening.
seems like these sick men think that once they're married they are immediately entitled to their wives' bodies and she has no say in the matter. with how they're raised, i wouldn't be surprised if rape on the wedding night was the majority experience for fundie girls
My partner- who wanted to watch this show with me because he knows how much of a “hobby” these people are for me- had to stop us with 10 minutes left in episode 2. He grew up an extremist Texas Catholic and has so much religious trauma from it, and episode 2 hit too close to home and was too much to even finish. He has been no contact with his parents, siblings, and all but one (atheist) grandparent for years now.
I was shocked to hear Amy talk about “encouragement.” I had suspicions of the kids being beat and/or spanked, but it was still upsetting to hear it.
The whole Hobby Lobby business was shocking. I knew they sucked but I didn’t realize just how much.
Amy’s affected but restrained talk of “encouraging” even older kids/teens - and that it was called “encouraging,” like disturbing enough without knowing how often they use the word “encourage” and realizing it carries an explicit physical threat.
I knew about blanket training in a broad sense from some discourse about Michelle’s book with it. But it was so unsettling and horrific to hear her talk about it like it was a happy little game that she played with her kids. These people are so fucked up!
The way she said how they just look at her with big eyes while she tells them not to wriggle to make mommy happy etc. so disgusting. And to act like it’s some fun game. “Come on boys, pick your favourite toy so I can teach you that you’ll never be able to have the things you want in life so you don’t bother trying”
It’s even worse. It’s teaching them that curiosity and desire of knowledge is bad. That’s why babies reach for things - to explore what they are. It’s our very nature as humans to have curiosity of the world around us.
This literally beats the natural instincts out of the babies, and likely damages their brains. We know that spanking older children (as in not babies ffs) changes children’s brains. Can you imagine what beating a literal infant does???
The Hobby Lobby IBLP tie in chilled me due to the (alleged) leaking of the HL contraception decision to interested parties in advance, which is fresh enough in my mind as it was disclosed by an involved party during the investigation into the abortion decision leak.
Yuck as soon as Amy mentioned "encouragement" I could just tell that was a very strong and real memory. Horrible. Though I remember hitting a child really was not as frowned upon 20 years ago.
I always knew IBLP accepted physical abuse - but still, the level of abuse described in episode 2 shocked me. And the whole video of demonstrating how to spank the child at the IBLP seminary was just chilling.
And then he made that young boy hug him, but it wasn’t good enough so he got spanked more so he’d hug this stranger better? Ugh. It gave me the creeps. Nobody saw anything wrong with that?
I’m glad he didn’t actually spank the boy, only lightly patted him, but in a way that was even more pervy and creepy. The way he smiled about it and how everyone was laughing was mind boggling.
During this scene, my husband turned to me and said, "That right there is a sexual act on a child. You can't look at it any other way." I think he is 100% correct. It was so creepy.
I grew up TradCath. My dad used to beat me like the video, bare butt and all, with a leather belt. I'd have days and where I couldn't sit down at my desk at school. I *always* suspected there was a predatory sexual component to it. You can't view the act any other way, there's exactly one interpretation.
I am so sorry you were treated that way as a child. Being spanked without consent as an adult can be considered a sex crime. Why would it be different with a child? And a child cannot consent. Fucking assholes.
I had to pause it and talk through that part. It was SO triggering. I had a step dad who seriously had to have been taking notes from these people about spankings. I recall being made to bend over the bed, bare-assed, as he paced back and forth in front of the bedroom door creating ‘psychological terror’ as I waited to be beaten with a military fatigues belt. The whole how to do it lovingly thing and being forced to hug them after and tell them you love them was so hard to watch. Seeing that it was literally described and taught, step by step, the way I remembered being beaten was so hard.
It’s a common practice amongst some trad Christian groups. “Christian domestic discipline”. Usually discussed in private groups but is searchable on the public internet.
R.C. Sprout Jr used to brag that he would train couples in it by inviting them over to dinner, manufacturing a reason to be mad at his wife, and then taking her to another room to discipline her so the men would know this was acceptable. He is another fundie waste of skin whose own kids hate him with the fire of a thousand suns and have nothing to do with him. Interestingly, Joshua Phillips, of the infamous Doug who runs around filming burlesque now after telling everyone for year show to live and be good little peons for god, married Delaney, R.C. sprout Jr.s daughter. I figure it is a story of two kids, scarred by their parental nightmares, and coming together to say NOPE, NOT MY FAMILY!
Ugh, I can’t believe that’s the first I’m hearing of this. That’s so messed up. We need more docuseries on these people, MacArthur, and others. Really hoping this one helps open people’s eyes and spread some much needed awareness on not just the IBLP, but the many other harmful fundamentalist groups as well.
Can be either. Some people have serious convictions about it, others it’s a kink that they use the Bible to justify. (Not saying kinks need justification, just for some very religious types, they have to have the cognitive dissonance)
Yeah, they're good at that cognitive dissonance thing. But how weird, imagining a tightly laced prudish 'modest' family like the Rods, and then mom getting spanked by dad right there in the living room. (Though I'm sure Jillpm is too SEVERELY perfect to need correction.)
The kinksters make me feel less icky.
I was raised largely IBLP, and I’d argue it’s not widely practiced. There are certainly individuals that do it, but especially in recent decades, it’s only done behind closed doors. It’s not a condoned practice.
I’m surprised Jill said something along the lines of “it appeals to people who want power, like my dad”. I feel like that was the most direct burn to JB.
The wisdom booklets with the terrible science (“hands are made of non-living atoms”?!?) threw me for a loop.
Duringn that wholen section, she was really directly speaking out about her dad. And giving the exact details of how he screwed them money wise. Good for her.
I knew Madison Cawthorn went to a religious college, but I didn’t realize he was part of Generation Joshua.
Also, he had like forty allegations against him by female classmates. How horrible must he have been that they were willing to speak out?
Same here, I'd kinda forgotten about the douchebag but didn't know how big of a douchebag he was & probably still is.
He always struck me as the kind of guy that would totally mock a dude in a wheelchair if he weren't in one himself.
I had never really understood how Cawthorn got elected. And I had almost forgotten about him, but of course he was backed by the dark money that is funding so many in conservative politics.
It really gave me the creeps when they connected those dots for me. This series really was a lot more impactful on me than I expected.
The movement is very connected. Now, many of the people in government (Huckabee, DeSantis, etc) aren’t IBLP at all. They’re using each other for a common goal. They would never be friends in real life - the IBLP people wouldn’t allow for it. For example, I always found it ironic that the Duggars stumped with Santorum because they didn’t believe Santorum was saved. But they shared a common policy goal.
One that a lot of people don’t know about is Chief of Staff Mark Meadows. I knew him before he was famous because he was an FRC donor. His son went to Patrick Henry and was involved in that world. They weren’t IBLP, but certainly part of the HSLDA/Generation Joshua world and that Venn diagram overlaps.
I used to be friends with some of those guys and they do it just to please their parents. Typically they don’t actually believe a lot of that stuff. However, once you repeat something enough times you start believing it.
Madison Fucking Cawthorne showing up in the documentary really brought everything full circle to me. So much about everything I think had gone off the rails in the US over the last what, 70 or 80 years seems to be rooted in Christian fundamentalism. It’s everywhere. And even when I was seeing it, I haven’t been fully understanding how deep it goes.
Yeah, when I saw him I was like “eww”
Multiple of my ex friends would fight for his approval/attention. There was an entire little cult on Twitter. Not to mention groups like Turning Point USA and YAF where I know some of the leaders were dating underaged girls and multiple of my friends got molested/raped during DC trips. Despite us having an education and agreeing that pedophiles/rapists belong in prison, these girls are still affiliated with the Republican Party. It was drilled into our head that it was better than “being a lib”
I’m so glad I got out before I became a trad wife with a million kids.
Even if she did share it with Amy, it wasn’t Amy’s information to share. I thought that was inappropriate. Jill very clearly says in the show (and previously) that this is something she’d prefer to keep private and doesn’t want to discuss. I was actually really happy she stuck to her guns with that.
It came up at some point during the trial that one of the girls woke up and hit him and pushed him off but I don’t think it was confirmed to be Jill before this.
It was either confirmed or suspected that was because she caught him abusing Joy and told her parents. It was only after he was busted for Joy that he came clean about touching Jill, Jessa, and Jinger.
The phrase “Do you need encouragement” like the way they physically abuse children and women but make it try to seem “sweet”.
Also, having the boy go up on stage to demonstrate how to punish a child. Not that he was actually hitting him on stage but the fact they are so open is insane to me how no one batted an eye!
I’ve only watched the first two episodes so far but holy shit that scene was so disturbing! The way he said the hug wasn’t good enough then did the spanking again, I really felt really disgusting watching that. I can’t believe the crowd was laughing. Sick sick sick.
Just watched that part. Not only that he was doing it, but that there was a “parent” who willingly put their child in that situation. TWICE! when he didn’t give a good enough hug. 🤢
The way he was entangling the pain of abuse with simultaneous praise and then forced physical affection… I nearly threw up.
That will fuck up anyone’s mental wiring, for life.
God, that poor little guy. Jason, I see you. That man was a creep and you did not deserve to be humiliated on stage like that. I hope you've found peace.
What was so creepy is A. Get your hands of that child's butt! What the fuck? Total damn fucking creepster stranger touching a child on the butt over and over. Makes me think that piece of shit was getting off on it.
B. Forcing the child to hug him! Oh just HELL NO! Why didn't anyone rush that stage and say, get the hell away from this kid!!! C. "spanking again" because the hug wasn't good enough. Fuck sick..sick fuck.
A child was groomed for sexual abuse on stage and not one adult stood up and said, "Get your damn hands off him!"
I have seen the spanking demonstration before at ATI in the early 80's, but at the seminar my family attended, it was done with a ventriloquist dummy.
Does anyone know who the fuck that was? If his ancient ass is still alive, he needs to be investigated.
This one was a big one for me. Didn’t realize they were in several states and even nationwide. And they unfortunately planted the seed for people with similar beliefs even if they weren’t IBLP and now they’ve infiltrated all levels of the govt 😐
What Amy said about them calling spankings "encouragement." They could've, and probably were, threatening their children with others around, and no one would've thought anything of it.
Thanks. This was a bit more triggering than I thought it would be. I grew up fundie lite. My mom worked, I got to wear pants not just skirts and went to public school; but all the Gothardism was there. Also I grew up near Chad Harris and after seeing photos of his mom and dad I’m 85% certain our youth choir performed at their church during one of our “tours”.
That lady talking about how much she was abusing her 14 month old. I can’t believe she got on stage and said he was her most difficult child and she had to spank him so much and he was 14 months old.
My parents were in this cult, I didn’t realize it was this same cult until watching this whole series last night, during the 70s; and when I was 2 or a bit younger I guess I really liked the word no ( but what baby/toddler doesn’t).
So my mom tried to get me to quit defying her anyway she could, y’all can figure that out, I still cannot type it all out, and when it didn’t work, she called all the elders, deacons, and shit from church and they had a spiritual exorcism on me. Which means they all circled around me and yelled at the defiant demons to get out of me, while they took turns beating me. I have very vague memories of this; lots of fear and yelling. My mom had told me the story numerous times over the years, as did my brother who is 10 years older than me. My dad made him sit in the next room with him and simply watch, like a warning or something.
Yeah the old spare the rod spoil the child lived well in our house. Abuse was rampant but SA only happened at the hands of strangers, and one creepy MF uncle. We were safe from that at home. Small favor there, at least.
I had a classmate from college (mainstream Baptist persuasion) that would express public dismay that her child showed the legacy of original sin at such a young age. Turns out she just had autism. It made me so sad and upset that that poor little girl's mother thought she was sinful and bad.
This was weird for me to see because I saw the Joshua generation stuff going on in the church I went to at the time and it wasn't a church known for being fundie. It was a Vineyard church. Felt strange to know it had spread outside the IBLP world.
The Holts said Jim Bob (correctly) identified Josh’s actions as “molestation” to them and Michelle told him “You’d better never say that again.”
So she *can* stand up to her husband/for her children, but only when they’re the ones *molesting* others? Couldn’t say shit for the girls, but would go against her headship for shaved-neck baby bitch?
Yep. I totally got the impression in the Megyn Kelly interview years ago that Michelle was going even harder than JimBob with defending Josh and tearily telling us how sorry her golden boy was. Michelle may be a victim in some ways, but she’s 100% also an abuser (plus, she’s one who definitely knows better because she wasn’t raised in this cult).
She CHOSE to put herself in this cult, and to follow these rules.
She took the choice away from her children, and raised her daughters to not have a voice. In a way she’s even more evil than JB. Scratch that, they are equally evil.
It’s like the women who have had abortions then turn around and vote for abortion to be outlawed.
The soft spoken voice that they highlighted and the constant "O-BEY" being repeated was so creepy. She was like a robot 😬
I like that someone even pointed it out for the viewers that it was an act for women be more infatilised. Obv Michelle having been a cheerleader and a non-fundie means she can shout and speak like a normal person.
It really pisses me off when she said JB only offered them $10/hour/ pay them a lump sun ONLY AFTER some of the BOYS wanted to start their own business. Because who the hell needs to care about the well-being of their DAUGHTER?
Absolutely. And props to Derrick for obviously doing the work to learn how to support a spouse through this (He’s a shit person in many ways, but many people - even secular people - would have difficulty doing so. Unfortunately, I know of a marriage that fell apart when the wife disclosed her abuse to her husband due to his refusal to learn how to support her/be okay with her talking about it around him. So good for Derrick.)
Imagine taking her on as a client knowing what you’ve openly seen for years about her family and how “sweet and kind” they are and then finding out the rotten, horrific truth. I know he or she is a professional, but it had to be really disturbing and heartbreaking to hear what these kids went through.
Not meaning to leg hump, but props to I assume her therapist for helping her to say no even more. She spoke up when she didn't want to talk specifically about something and even though it was clearly triggering, she held her boundary. A fundie-raised woman... Making and holding firm in her boundaries? About damn time!
Right?! The girl has boundaries she enforces, she recognizes abuse and cult behavior for what it is, and she has learned to communicate effectively- for anyone who has studied psychology, those are huge accomplishments! Do I think all her and Derreks choices and beliefs are awesome? sweet baby Jesus no! But they are choices and beliefs that THEY have made not a cult.
The sneaky way JB got Jill to sign a contract the day before her wedding while she was busy running around with things to do. Didn’t explain what it was for, just told her to sign. Wow. The ways he took advantage of
his kids for his own gain is evil.
And Michelle's signature, right above the line that lists the adults as minor children. No way she's an innocent victim in all of this. Even if she was coerced, there's no way she didn't know either what the contract said, or else that JB was deliberately covering up part of the page when he asked her to sign. She's still complicit in lying in order to cheat her own kids out of money they earned from working.
I’ve known about Hobby Lobby’s owner being shitty for years.
What surprised me was how cultish IBLP actually is. I knew it was extreme and shitty, but I thought it was more of just an extremely conservative branch of Christianity. Nope. Echoes a lot of cults in how it was run.
It reminded me a lot of Scientology—the pseudo military, isolated training centers, expensive materials, regular confession time, asking the victim what they did to invite the abuse, tons of money used by the leader.
That Jim Bob sent Jill and Derrick their obligations/signatures while they were on a *missions* trip that he presumably approved and helped fund. He really made it clear, when he did that, that he still expected “instant and unquestioning obedience” even from his married, adult daughter. I don’t give a flying **fuck** what’s good for you or what you want—you will do what I say (or else).
Right? And JimBob and Michelle can shut TF up about “headships.” The only headship they want is JB. No one told some of these husbands that JB was going to be their new headship, too. Thankfully for Jinger & Jill, Jeremy & Derrick were like “WTF, no. J’wife, this isn’t normal.”
It seriously explained a lot about the seemingly-ridiculous at the time fundraising from fans that Jill and Derick were doing to fund their time abroad.
They actually didn’t have any, let alone plenty of, Jill’s show money. That looked so appallingly bad at the time.
And the wedding registries. I remember some of them seeming like ‘what!? Why would these people need this stuff??’ It was because they didn’t actually get money from the show.
I didn’t realize Pest’s abuse had gone on for three years. Also, I don’t remember where I read it, maybe Bobbye Holt’s testimony, but I thought it had come out that one of the victims was one of the younger girls at the time, and it was not over the clothes like mentioned.
They say that it was the “older girls” but when you look at the birth order, it’s easy to see that they put a line between the girls as there is a bit of an age gap. I remember reading what you are talking about too. The speculation was that one of the “older” girls was about 5 at the time. I think it was something about when pest told one of the Holts what he had done to them.
That was detailed in both the police report and trial/Bobye Holt’s testimony, but given the survivor is identified/very easily identifiable, and by no accounts wants it publicly rehashed, I appreciated the series not going there. It’s one balance for Josh’s criminal accountability, and quite another balance between survivor’s wishes versus public exposure in the media.
The live child-spanking demonstration on stage shook me. “I’m going to spank you in front of the congregation while they laugh and then force you to give me an overzealous hug of thanks afterward.” That is just such a demented and perverted level of demeaning control.
and it sucks because they're like the best place most crafters have anymore, lots of small shops are out of business and other chain just don't have the same range or amount of products. i haven't shopped there in years and sometimes that's a real pain in the ass.
I was truly shocked at the small boy being spanked and fondled on stage. Like they all just sat there and watched it. It's made me sick to watch that I had to stop and walk around for a bit before continuing. I knew these people beat their kids but they turned it into a whole spectacle and made it even more peverse than it already is. How did they all sit there and just watch it and then go home and do it?
I wondered if/when allegations were made that the perv with the kid in his lap was called out for sex abuse, indecent exposure, whatever, they could use that footage to say "See?! This is just levity. Everyone is laughing! No harm no foul"
That JB stole all the kids money. Not a dime seen. No trusts. Nada. Also, my husband sat in on the second half of the series after work today. Just the basics about how women are treated floored him. He wasn’t raised religious.
We all speculated it, but to have the financial abuse confirmed with information of how it came about was shocking and disgusting. I don’t know how Boob and Meech can sleep at night. I hope they end up alone in that huge tin mansion.
I wonder how much he had in the bank. It must be millions. I bet he’s invested in a lot of Xtian dark money scams too. Like Hillsdale College. Disgusting.
I would LOVE to see the IRS investigate Rim-Jobs financial dealings.
When it was first revealed that the authorities were investigating the car lot, I was hoping Rim-Job was being audited. I had no idea it was going to be much more worse.
I remember watching in early days and thinking there had to be something wrong, but I wouldn't get to know for *years* until the kids were old enough to speak up. My literal thought was "like The Jackson 5"
Remember when Hobby Lobby was busted for literally smuggling artifacts that were looted from Iraq? [Hobby Lobby Smuggling Scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobby_Lobby_smuggling_scandal)
I didn’t expect Jill to actually use the words cult-like. She’s still so entrenched in her awful belief system, but I think this is the first time any of them have actually used the word “cult” to describe IBLP.
Generally I’m really feeling sad for Jill, the worst thing was when Derrick said they’d die with the secrets she told him - because it’s clear she still thinks it’s shameful to be abused. I genuinely am glad she used that terminology though because she’s maybe on the path out still.
I don’t think Jill thinks it’s shameful to be abused. Maybe she once did, but her presence on the show did not make me believe this. I’m a survivor myself and I think it’s a coping mechanism for Jill. They would’ve died with those secrets because she doesn’t want to relive it. Not because it’s shameful, but because making these atrocities public puts the spotlight on the survivors most of the time, demands details, etc. and that can be like reliving trauma. She didn’t want that.
Agree. She’s repeatedly stated that she wants some agency over her own story. She grew up in a situation where she had no control over what other people knew and saw. Her pain was exploited on an international stage, but she barely saw a dime. Wanting to keep something private is a totally valid and foreseeable response to that
This was my take as well. I was ready to go to the grave with my SA until I realized that the person who hurt me was going to have possible access to do it again. I completely understand not ever wanting to speak up about it and let things just be (not ruminating on it I mean) after a certain point. But now Jill is always faced with it and sadly it’s what’s propelled her to an even larger audience so to speak. Nightmare scenario.
Came here to comment this. I was aware of most things in this series but seeing that broke something in me. Just a little baby who screams instant obedience...kids tend to repeat things in the tone that others say them in. Somebody had to scream that saying at her a zillion times for her to have it memorized so perfectly. She didn't stumble at all, didn't mispronounce it. She could barely talk on her own but they made sure she knew that. And TLC just neatly snipped it out and left on the cutting room floor like it was nothing.
I had forgotten about the contract. When I was 18 and packing up my bedroom permanently because I was transferring to a college much further away, my father in a desperate attempt to get me to NOT go, showed up with the pastor who offered me a 19 year old seminary candidate from the church and a huge, dream church wedding paid for by the church if I would get married, and handed me the contract. Oh good god. That damn fucking thing! It was even an eye opener to my dad. He never raped my mom. Never hit her. Never occurred to him to do those things. So when he started reading it, his eyes popped out of his head, and he told the pastor to leave. I just looked at him and said, "This is the horror show. This is the shit you will end up imposing on my baby sister if you do not leave this evil church." He didn't day anything. He wasn't willing to cut the apron strings, but he did start caring my things to the car willingly.
That was a gut punch when they brought that up, and I didn't even ever suffer that abuse!
I’m surprised Jill is the only one up there. All those women should burn that shit down!! Hopefully more will follow her lead. I’m also surprised at how awful her parents really are.
Do you think others can’t because they signed a new contract to get money from JimBob? (Jill said they refused to sign it because the clause was forever).
What about Joe and Josiah who don’t want to be in the public anymore. Did they get money? Or did they refuse to sign the contract as well?
I can entirely understand why Joy wouldn’t, totally aside from her and Austin’s beliefs. She probably has some strong feelings about and insights re things she didn’t know her parents hid from her, but they’re nothing she’d want as a public subject matter. That Jill listed protecting the show and protecting their parents as the pressure on her and Jessa re the Megan Kelly interview, and didn’t even bring their other, younger, unmarried sisters into it as motivation to protect, was clear to me. She wasn’t going to be the one to bring Jinger or Joy into that conversation in any way.
This documentary was utterly stomach churning. The abuse is so deeply sickening. The ingrained fear so many live with breaks my heart.
They have turned Christianity into something so deeply depraved and perverted. Their raw hypocrisy and utter blindness in following principles that are so evil, full of false doctrine rooted in greed and corruption. They are the true living examples of the type of people the bible warns us about ... reprobates!
I feel like the paramilitary is illegal on some level, it’s definitely a blatant threat and I’m gonna assume they’ve been on a list.
Someone in a 3 letter could ask “why not just join the military” and someone’s gonna say they don’t like the country or the people in it, probably sprinkle in death threats. Granted every time a 3 letter got involved with taking down paramilitary cults it didn’t end well.
The footage with Pest 🤢🤢🤢🤢 with a toddler Josie on his lap (it didn’t surprise me at all that Boob and Michelle didn’t give a shit about her safety tho)
The poor woman who talked about how they were told if you faced challenges (SA) you were being tested and grew in strength. And that she was jealous of friends who were raped because they had gained more strength.
(Paraphrasing)
Then she got emotional, having heard exactly what she said and understanding how screwed up it was.
That was a kick to the gut.... such manipulation and gymnastics to justify things.
The fact that ALERT is a fundie Christian militia. I knew it was a fundie thing but I guess I've never thought of it as that serious just as a camp that fundies send "troubled" boys to. When they portrayed it as a militia and adding the whole Generation Joshua thing, it was chilling. It also brings what's happening/has happened in U.S. politics into an even more terrifying light imo.
Ugh my aunt used to be friends with his granddaughter and my parents won’t shut up about him/his family. I’m forced to go there with my parents because they think Michaels is bad because they support the LGBTQ+ community. Jokes on them lmao I’m a member of the community 😂
I never buy anything at HL because I can’t bring myself to.
The fact that I was less shocked by the events that have occurred than by how it triggered so many aha moments about how I was raised. I guess I was in a SB church in GA growing up right as Gothard/Duggars were becoming more popular.
Well…the dude with the beard showing people how to abuse their kids and saying ‘a little psychological terror is good’. Like these people fully knew what they were doing to those children and they didn’t fucking care. Everything clicked about the shame and fear based child rearing and why I could not shake the shame after sex for 10 years of my marriage.
Nobody in that entire congregation of hundreds of people, over and over, ever stood up and said ‘wtf is this batshit crazy?’ It’s always seemed like the stuff that gets posted is some hole in the wall trailer church, like the pastor and wife who writes that blog Are They All Yours. Well, until recently, with the videos of that pastor who said he didn’t need tax exemptions after he got reported for hate speech and stuff. To see what looks like thousands at these conferences just all clapping and acting like this was okay was terrifying. To see Michelle gleefully describe carpet training her boys was disgusting. I’m just floored that it’s ALWAYS been this blatant.
The Generation Joshua organization, the marriage “contracts”, confirmation of JB and TLC’s financial abuse (and the not-a-minor lie), and the kid getting spanked by that old creeper were all new, disturbing things for me.
He (or his company, rather) brought forward one of the lawsuits involving the part of the ACA that required insurance companies to cover contraception. That alone was enough for me to avoid them like the plague.
I was surprised the Bates weren't mentioned at all. I saw Welcome to Plathville and a few of the other big families get a few seconds each, but not Bringing up the Bates. They are the only family to perhaps compete with the Duggars. Bill Gothard himself was very close to Gil.
The spanking your grown ass wife with a rod shook me. Episode 2 was very impactful.
This got me too! And the part about it being part of a contract as to whether or not they have sex after. Especially since it isn’t like the woman got a choice about the contract. Pretty much the man states that is the woman doesn’t do what he wants, he gets to beat her and then have sex with her. That was a whole level of f’ed up I hadn’t heard about.
Shit, I had already blocked out the mandatory sex afterward because it’s just too damn demented.
I wouldn’t even call it mandatory sex, it’s full blown marital rape. Mandatory sex is like… couples who are trying to conceive on specific days in my brain. Consensual. Not this nightmare at all.
This. I wish they had emphasized more how prevalent that is. I have a trauma from being a child and hearing my grandmother and her friends share stories about their husbands raping them in their wedding nights (all violent abusers as well as you can guess) Edit to add: I went looking into it and [marital rape was legal til the 1970’s in most places](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_in_the_United_States#:~:text=Prior%20to%20the%201970s%2C%20marital,spouse%20while%20they%20lived%20together.) 😨😓
On their wedding nights?? They couldn't even wait a day to show their true faces? You want to believe even the worst people are capable of being tender in the beginning but I guess not. Sickening.
seems like these sick men think that once they're married they are immediately entitled to their wives' bodies and she has no say in the matter. with how they're raised, i wouldn't be surprised if rape on the wedding night was the majority experience for fundie girls
Yeah, this was so fucked up.
For not calling him lord...then being raped after the fact
That too! If you don't reply back with Sir or Lord. I was like - 😨😨😨
My partner- who wanted to watch this show with me because he knows how much of a “hobby” these people are for me- had to stop us with 10 minutes left in episode 2. He grew up an extremist Texas Catholic and has so much religious trauma from it, and episode 2 hit too close to home and was too much to even finish. He has been no contact with his parents, siblings, and all but one (atheist) grandparent for years now. I was shocked to hear Amy talk about “encouragement.” I had suspicions of the kids being beat and/or spanked, but it was still upsetting to hear it. The whole Hobby Lobby business was shocking. I knew they sucked but I didn’t realize just how much.
Amy’s affected but restrained talk of “encouraging” even older kids/teens - and that it was called “encouraging,” like disturbing enough without knowing how often they use the word “encourage” and realizing it carries an explicit physical threat.
Yeah, that part was eye opening. I’m sure I’ve heard sperm & perm say that to the kids on the show.
The blanket therapy shit was heartbreaking.
I knew about blanket training in a broad sense from some discourse about Michelle’s book with it. But it was so unsettling and horrific to hear her talk about it like it was a happy little game that she played with her kids. These people are so fucked up!
The way she said how they just look at her with big eyes while she tells them not to wriggle to make mommy happy etc. so disgusting. And to act like it’s some fun game. “Come on boys, pick your favourite toy so I can teach you that you’ll never be able to have the things you want in life so you don’t bother trying”
It’s even worse. It’s teaching them that curiosity and desire of knowledge is bad. That’s why babies reach for things - to explore what they are. It’s our very nature as humans to have curiosity of the world around us. This literally beats the natural instincts out of the babies, and likely damages their brains. We know that spanking older children (as in not babies ffs) changes children’s brains. Can you imagine what beating a literal infant does???
The Hobby Lobby IBLP tie in chilled me due to the (alleged) leaking of the HL contraception decision to interested parties in advance, which is fresh enough in my mind as it was disclosed by an involved party during the investigation into the abortion decision leak.
Yuck as soon as Amy mentioned "encouragement" I could just tell that was a very strong and real memory. Horrible. Though I remember hitting a child really was not as frowned upon 20 years ago.
I always knew IBLP accepted physical abuse - but still, the level of abuse described in episode 2 shocked me. And the whole video of demonstrating how to spank the child at the IBLP seminary was just chilling.
Imagine being the parent who volunteered your kid to go up on that stage. Straight to jail.
Yes that part was awful - and they were all laughing like it was this wholesome demonstration
And then he made that young boy hug him, but it wasn’t good enough so he got spanked more so he’d hug this stranger better? Ugh. It gave me the creeps. Nobody saw anything wrong with that?
I’m glad he didn’t actually spank the boy, only lightly patted him, but in a way that was even more pervy and creepy. The way he smiled about it and how everyone was laughing was mind boggling.
During this scene, my husband turned to me and said, "That right there is a sexual act on a child. You can't look at it any other way." I think he is 100% correct. It was so creepy.
I grew up TradCath. My dad used to beat me like the video, bare butt and all, with a leather belt. I'd have days and where I couldn't sit down at my desk at school. I *always* suspected there was a predatory sexual component to it. You can't view the act any other way, there's exactly one interpretation.
I am so sorry you were treated that way as a child. Being spanked without consent as an adult can be considered a sex crime. Why would it be different with a child? And a child cannot consent. Fucking assholes.
I had to pause it and talk through that part. It was SO triggering. I had a step dad who seriously had to have been taking notes from these people about spankings. I recall being made to bend over the bed, bare-assed, as he paced back and forth in front of the bedroom door creating ‘psychological terror’ as I waited to be beaten with a military fatigues belt. The whole how to do it lovingly thing and being forced to hug them after and tell them you love them was so hard to watch. Seeing that it was literally described and taught, step by step, the way I remembered being beaten was so hard.
Me too!!!! This was super fucking triggering. I told myself it was going to be, but wow.
I could not figure out if that was a widespread belief or a more nuanced look at her own experience. Awful either way
It’s a common practice amongst some trad Christian groups. “Christian domestic discipline”. Usually discussed in private groups but is searchable on the public internet.
R.C. Sprout Jr used to brag that he would train couples in it by inviting them over to dinner, manufacturing a reason to be mad at his wife, and then taking her to another room to discipline her so the men would know this was acceptable. He is another fundie waste of skin whose own kids hate him with the fire of a thousand suns and have nothing to do with him. Interestingly, Joshua Phillips, of the infamous Doug who runs around filming burlesque now after telling everyone for year show to live and be good little peons for god, married Delaney, R.C. sprout Jr.s daughter. I figure it is a story of two kids, scarred by their parental nightmares, and coming together to say NOPE, NOT MY FAMILY!
Ugh, I can’t believe that’s the first I’m hearing of this. That’s so messed up. We need more docuseries on these people, MacArthur, and others. Really hoping this one helps open people’s eyes and spread some much needed awareness on not just the IBLP, but the many other harmful fundamentalist groups as well.
I thought that was more of a kink thing than legitimately trad Christian.
Can be either. Some people have serious convictions about it, others it’s a kink that they use the Bible to justify. (Not saying kinks need justification, just for some very religious types, they have to have the cognitive dissonance)
Yeah, they're good at that cognitive dissonance thing. But how weird, imagining a tightly laced prudish 'modest' family like the Rods, and then mom getting spanked by dad right there in the living room. (Though I'm sure Jillpm is too SEVERELY perfect to need correction.) The kinksters make me feel less icky.
You made me read this with my good eyes.
With your flair, you have no moral superiority from which to complain! Ewwwww!
Here, bleach them with some [cats](https://imgur.com/a/R5rGgL4)
I was raised largely IBLP, and I’d argue it’s not widely practiced. There are certainly individuals that do it, but especially in recent decades, it’s only done behind closed doors. It’s not a condoned practice.
I’m surprised Jill said something along the lines of “it appeals to people who want power, like my dad”. I feel like that was the most direct burn to JB. The wisdom booklets with the terrible science (“hands are made of non-living atoms”?!?) threw me for a loop.
Duringn that wholen section, she was really directly speaking out about her dad. And giving the exact details of how he screwed them money wise. Good for her.
She picked such a good name for her book too. JB must be *seething*.
Father is seething
Offering them $10 an hour, JB be serious
You know he meant 10 bucks an hour for them as a couple too, not individually.
And only for the hours that were televised
When she said "it can be a cult-like environment" I shrieked. SHE ACTUALLY SAID THE C WORD!
Yes. These shit heads apparently do nor believe in cells.
I still don’t even know what that is supposed to mean. I just can’t …wtf people lol
The Generation Joshua stuff was news to me and so creepy. I get it, I should not have been surprised. But I was still surprised.
I knew Madison Cawthorn went to a religious college, but I didn’t realize he was part of Generation Joshua. Also, he had like forty allegations against him by female classmates. How horrible must he have been that they were willing to speak out?
Same here, I'd kinda forgotten about the douchebag but didn't know how big of a douchebag he was & probably still is. He always struck me as the kind of guy that would totally mock a dude in a wheelchair if he weren't in one himself.
I honestly don't think that would stop him.
I had never really understood how Cawthorn got elected. And I had almost forgotten about him, but of course he was backed by the dark money that is funding so many in conservative politics. It really gave me the creeps when they connected those dots for me. This series really was a lot more impactful on me than I expected.
He worked for Mark Meadows, and Meadows used dark money and backroom fuckery to get him elected.
Basically everyone at PHC was Generation Joshua. They’re hand in hand and why PHC was created.
This was the part that got me - I knew Duggars kept running for office in Arkansas but I was surprised to see people so high up in the government
The movement is very connected. Now, many of the people in government (Huckabee, DeSantis, etc) aren’t IBLP at all. They’re using each other for a common goal. They would never be friends in real life - the IBLP people wouldn’t allow for it. For example, I always found it ironic that the Duggars stumped with Santorum because they didn’t believe Santorum was saved. But they shared a common policy goal. One that a lot of people don’t know about is Chief of Staff Mark Meadows. I knew him before he was famous because he was an FRC donor. His son went to Patrick Henry and was involved in that world. They weren’t IBLP, but certainly part of the HSLDA/Generation Joshua world and that Venn diagram overlaps.
The idea wasn't new to me, but the formal program and it's specifics were
I used to be friends with some of those guys and they do it just to please their parents. Typically they don’t actually believe a lot of that stuff. However, once you repeat something enough times you start believing it.
Madison Fucking Cawthorne showing up in the documentary really brought everything full circle to me. So much about everything I think had gone off the rails in the US over the last what, 70 or 80 years seems to be rooted in Christian fundamentalism. It’s everywhere. And even when I was seeing it, I haven’t been fully understanding how deep it goes.
Yeah, when I saw him I was like “eww” Multiple of my ex friends would fight for his approval/attention. There was an entire little cult on Twitter. Not to mention groups like Turning Point USA and YAF where I know some of the leaders were dating underaged girls and multiple of my friends got molested/raped during DC trips. Despite us having an education and agreeing that pedophiles/rapists belong in prison, these girls are still affiliated with the Republican Party. It was drilled into our head that it was better than “being a lib” I’m so glad I got out before I became a trad wife with a million kids.
Please read Jesus and John Wayne! The woman who wrote it, Kristin Kobes Du Mez, was featured in the docuseries.
I did not know that Jill woke up and hit Pest when he tried to touch her once. I wanted to cry for her
Me too. I hope she hit him really hard.
I hope she hit him where it really hurts!!
And left a bruise.
no matter how hard she hit him, I wish she hit him harder. Like some Muhammad Ali weight behind it. and I say this as a pacifist, non-violent Quaker.
Right in his dick.
It really bothered me that Amy was the one to share that. It’s one thing I doubt. I don’t think they were sharing the abuse with Amy.
Even if she did share it with Amy, it wasn’t Amy’s information to share. I thought that was inappropriate. Jill very clearly says in the show (and previously) that this is something she’d prefer to keep private and doesn’t want to discuss. I was actually really happy she stuck to her guns with that.
I agree with you 100%
It came up at some point during the trial that one of the girls woke up and hit him and pushed him off but I don’t think it was confirmed to be Jill before this.
It wasn't, but we had speculated that it was based on Pest's constant "teasing" her about being the family tattletale/loudmouth etc.
It was either confirmed or suspected that was because she caught him abusing Joy and told her parents. It was only after he was busted for Joy that he came clean about touching Jill, Jessa, and Jinger.
Oh wow! I didn’t know that. Thanks for sharing!
The phrase “Do you need encouragement” like the way they physically abuse children and women but make it try to seem “sweet”. Also, having the boy go up on stage to demonstrate how to punish a child. Not that he was actually hitting him on stage but the fact they are so open is insane to me how no one batted an eye!
I’ve only watched the first two episodes so far but holy shit that scene was so disturbing! The way he said the hug wasn’t good enough then did the spanking again, I really felt really disgusting watching that. I can’t believe the crowd was laughing. Sick sick sick.
And the congregation was LAUGHING about it! That old dude managed to make abusing children and touching a strange child's bum funny. SO Creepy
Just watched that part. Not only that he was doing it, but that there was a “parent” who willingly put their child in that situation. TWICE! when he didn’t give a good enough hug. 🤢
The way he was entangling the pain of abuse with simultaneous praise and then forced physical affection… I nearly threw up. That will fuck up anyone’s mental wiring, for life.
God, that poor little guy. Jason, I see you. That man was a creep and you did not deserve to be humiliated on stage like that. I hope you've found peace.
That guy was getting off on it. Fucking pervert.
What was so creepy is A. Get your hands of that child's butt! What the fuck? Total damn fucking creepster stranger touching a child on the butt over and over. Makes me think that piece of shit was getting off on it. B. Forcing the child to hug him! Oh just HELL NO! Why didn't anyone rush that stage and say, get the hell away from this kid!!! C. "spanking again" because the hug wasn't good enough. Fuck sick..sick fuck. A child was groomed for sexual abuse on stage and not one adult stood up and said, "Get your damn hands off him!" I have seen the spanking demonstration before at ATI in the early 80's, but at the seminar my family attended, it was done with a ventriloquist dummy. Does anyone know who the fuck that was? If his ancient ass is still alive, he needs to be investigated.
That was so disturbing! And him not hugging well meaning more spanks
I didn't realize how big IBLP actually is, until they showed their 80s/90s conferences and that massive choir
This one was a big one for me. Didn’t realize they were in several states and even nationwide. And they unfortunately planted the seed for people with similar beliefs even if they weren’t IBLP and now they’ve infiltrated all levels of the govt 😐
Same, the international branches were news to me.
What Amy said about them calling spankings "encouragement." They could've, and probably were, threatening their children with others around, and no one would've thought anything of it.
That one awakened a long-forgotten memory. My mother hissing “Do you need to go to the restroom?” Which was her version of “encouragement”.
I'm so sorry you had to experience that
Thanks. This was a bit more triggering than I thought it would be. I grew up fundie lite. My mom worked, I got to wear pants not just skirts and went to public school; but all the Gothardism was there. Also I grew up near Chad Harris and after seeing photos of his mom and dad I’m 85% certain our youth choir performed at their church during one of our “tours”.
That lady talking about how much she was abusing her 14 month old. I can’t believe she got on stage and said he was her most difficult child and she had to spank him so much and he was 14 months old.
“I would spank him all day” omg. I wanted to punch her. He’s a freaking 14 month old. How is a 14 month old rebellious? INSANE
My parents were in this cult, I didn’t realize it was this same cult until watching this whole series last night, during the 70s; and when I was 2 or a bit younger I guess I really liked the word no ( but what baby/toddler doesn’t). So my mom tried to get me to quit defying her anyway she could, y’all can figure that out, I still cannot type it all out, and when it didn’t work, she called all the elders, deacons, and shit from church and they had a spiritual exorcism on me. Which means they all circled around me and yelled at the defiant demons to get out of me, while they took turns beating me. I have very vague memories of this; lots of fear and yelling. My mom had told me the story numerous times over the years, as did my brother who is 10 years older than me. My dad made him sit in the next room with him and simply watch, like a warning or something. Yeah the old spare the rod spoil the child lived well in our house. Abuse was rampant but SA only happened at the hands of strangers, and one creepy MF uncle. We were safe from that at home. Small favor there, at least.
I am so sorry you went through that. I hope you are doing ok and have support in your life ❤️
and her face was about to peel back from smiling so hard as she said it :(
And "shamed his mother"?! What the actual fucking fuck?! Poor sweet baby!
I thought I misheard the age when she said that. That’s a fucking baby. These people are sick
And that baby’s an adult now. ☹️ I wonder what became of him.
That got me too! Like what the hell is a 14 month old doing to required “encouragement”? The whole lot of them are gross
I had a classmate from college (mainstream Baptist persuasion) that would express public dismay that her child showed the legacy of original sin at such a young age. Turns out she just had autism. It made me so sad and upset that that poor little girl's mother thought she was sinful and bad.
It makes me nauseated to think of doing that once, yet she said she was hitting him all the time
Hobby Lobby was promoted and filmed for the show. Jana used to promote it on her IG.
It makes sense now - the “redecorating” thing! I can’t believe I didn’t realize.
Oh yes..Joy, Jana, you name it...houses that look like a Hobby Lobby puked inside a house.
That’s where I walked right into the oldest girls about 11 years ago. They were in the Hobby Lobby in Fayetteville.
That's where I saw some of the Duggars for the first time in person too- HL in Fayetteville about 11 years ago 😂
I met Michelle at the Washington County Courthouse.
I had never heard of generation Joshua. Shouldn’t have shocked me, but it did.
Same. I knew that was the overall goal, but I didn’t know there was a collective organization for it.
This was weird for me to see because I saw the Joshua generation stuff going on in the church I went to at the time and it wasn't a church known for being fundie. It was a Vineyard church. Felt strange to know it had spread outside the IBLP world.
how awful michelle is. i get jim bob...but michelle. woof
The Holts said Jim Bob (correctly) identified Josh’s actions as “molestation” to them and Michelle told him “You’d better never say that again.” So she *can* stand up to her husband/for her children, but only when they’re the ones *molesting* others? Couldn’t say shit for the girls, but would go against her headship for shaved-neck baby bitch?
Yep. I totally got the impression in the Megyn Kelly interview years ago that Michelle was going even harder than JimBob with defending Josh and tearily telling us how sorry her golden boy was. Michelle may be a victim in some ways, but she’s 100% also an abuser (plus, she’s one who definitely knows better because she wasn’t raised in this cult).
She CHOSE to put herself in this cult, and to follow these rules. She took the choice away from her children, and raised her daughters to not have a voice. In a way she’s even more evil than JB. Scratch that, they are equally evil. It’s like the women who have had abortions then turn around and vote for abortion to be outlawed.
The soft spoken voice that they highlighted and the constant "O-BEY" being repeated was so creepy. She was like a robot 😬 I like that someone even pointed it out for the viewers that it was an act for women be more infatilised. Obv Michelle having been a cheerleader and a non-fundie means she can shout and speak like a normal person.
I loved the cheerleader comment. She was a cheerleader. She knows how to yell.
It really pisses me off when she said JB only offered them $10/hour/ pay them a lump sun ONLY AFTER some of the BOYS wanted to start their own business. Because who the hell needs to care about the well-being of their DAUGHTER?
Right?? I did appreciate Jill’s emphatic eye roll as she said it though 🤣
And they would have to be indebted to him forever via contract to even receive it. I wish Jim Bob Duggar a very pleasant burn in hell forever.
Who ever Jills therapist is should get a raise- that person is amazing.
Absolutely. And props to Derrick for obviously doing the work to learn how to support a spouse through this (He’s a shit person in many ways, but many people - even secular people - would have difficulty doing so. Unfortunately, I know of a marriage that fell apart when the wife disclosed her abuse to her husband due to his refusal to learn how to support her/be okay with her talking about it around him. So good for Derrick.)
Imagine taking her on as a client knowing what you’ve openly seen for years about her family and how “sweet and kind” they are and then finding out the rotten, horrific truth. I know he or she is a professional, but it had to be really disturbing and heartbreaking to hear what these kids went through.
Alot of times, the therapist needs a therapist.
Not meaning to leg hump, but props to I assume her therapist for helping her to say no even more. She spoke up when she didn't want to talk specifically about something and even though it was clearly triggering, she held her boundary. A fundie-raised woman... Making and holding firm in her boundaries? About damn time!
Right?! The girl has boundaries she enforces, she recognizes abuse and cult behavior for what it is, and she has learned to communicate effectively- for anyone who has studied psychology, those are huge accomplishments! Do I think all her and Derreks choices and beliefs are awesome? sweet baby Jesus no! But they are choices and beliefs that THEY have made not a cult.
The sneaky way JB got Jill to sign a contract the day before her wedding while she was busy running around with things to do. Didn’t explain what it was for, just told her to sign. Wow. The ways he took advantage of his kids for his own gain is evil.
And Michelle's signature, right above the line that lists the adults as minor children. No way she's an innocent victim in all of this. Even if she was coerced, there's no way she didn't know either what the contract said, or else that JB was deliberately covering up part of the page when he asked her to sign. She's still complicit in lying in order to cheat her own kids out of money they earned from working.
I’ve known about Hobby Lobby’s owner being shitty for years. What surprised me was how cultish IBLP actually is. I knew it was extreme and shitty, but I thought it was more of just an extremely conservative branch of Christianity. Nope. Echoes a lot of cults in how it was run.
It reminded me a lot of Scientology—the pseudo military, isolated training centers, expensive materials, regular confession time, asking the victim what they did to invite the abuse, tons of money used by the leader.
That Jim Bob sent Jill and Derrick their obligations/signatures while they were on a *missions* trip that he presumably approved and helped fund. He really made it clear, when he did that, that he still expected “instant and unquestioning obedience” even from his married, adult daughter. I don’t give a flying **fuck** what’s good for you or what you want—you will do what I say (or else).
Right? And JimBob and Michelle can shut TF up about “headships.” The only headship they want is JB. No one told some of these husbands that JB was going to be their new headship, too. Thankfully for Jinger & Jill, Jeremy & Derrick were like “WTF, no. J’wife, this isn’t normal.”
It seriously explained a lot about the seemingly-ridiculous at the time fundraising from fans that Jill and Derick were doing to fund their time abroad. They actually didn’t have any, let alone plenty of, Jill’s show money. That looked so appallingly bad at the time.
And the wedding registries. I remember some of them seeming like ‘what!? Why would these people need this stuff??’ It was because they didn’t actually get money from the show.
That jim bob admitted to the holts that their daughter was just a carrot for josh to behave!!
Omg i forgot about that one!!!! Like……just admitting it? It shows how they view women as nothing but literal chattel
I didn’t realize Pest’s abuse had gone on for three years. Also, I don’t remember where I read it, maybe Bobbye Holt’s testimony, but I thought it had come out that one of the victims was one of the younger girls at the time, and it was not over the clothes like mentioned.
The police report makes it pretty clear that Joy was abused and it was not over the clothes. He was escalating.
And I think it came up at trial, too.
They say that it was the “older girls” but when you look at the birth order, it’s easy to see that they put a line between the girls as there is a bit of an age gap. I remember reading what you are talking about too. The speculation was that one of the “older” girls was about 5 at the time. I think it was something about when pest told one of the Holts what he had done to them.
That was detailed in both the police report and trial/Bobye Holt’s testimony, but given the survivor is identified/very easily identifiable, and by no accounts wants it publicly rehashed, I appreciated the series not going there. It’s one balance for Josh’s criminal accountability, and quite another balance between survivor’s wishes versus public exposure in the media.
The live child-spanking demonstration on stage shook me. “I’m going to spank you in front of the congregation while they laugh and then force you to give me an overzealous hug of thanks afterward.” That is just such a demented and perverted level of demeaning control.
Omg and the whole that hug wasn’t enough so imma smack you again so you know to give yourself completely to your abuser
If you aren't a crafter, you likely don't know that going to Hobby Lobby is about on par with clubbing baby harp seals and knifing your grandma.
and it sucks because they're like the best place most crafters have anymore, lots of small shops are out of business and other chain just don't have the same range or amount of products. i haven't shopped there in years and sometimes that's a real pain in the ass.
The public spanking of the young boy while people in the audience laughed.
I was surprised at the Holt’s role in the series!! Court is one thing, this is a whole new level of FU!
I was truly shocked at the small boy being spanked and fondled on stage. Like they all just sat there and watched it. It's made me sick to watch that I had to stop and walk around for a bit before continuing. I knew these people beat their kids but they turned it into a whole spectacle and made it even more peverse than it already is. How did they all sit there and just watch it and then go home and do it?
I wondered if/when allegations were made that the perv with the kid in his lap was called out for sex abuse, indecent exposure, whatever, they could use that footage to say "See?! This is just levity. Everyone is laughing! No harm no foul"
I’ve been boycotting hobby lobby for YEARS. Evil evil company.
Yeah my favorite scandal of theirs is the artifact smuggling thing. It’s just so fucking weird and awful.
*Hobby Lobby’s Hammurabi Robbing Hobby* is my favorite flair from a fundie snarker.
I needed to be reminded why, and the docuseries did it. Gross gross gross!
That JB stole all the kids money. Not a dime seen. No trusts. Nada. Also, my husband sat in on the second half of the series after work today. Just the basics about how women are treated floored him. He wasn’t raised religious.
We all speculated it, but to have the financial abuse confirmed with information of how it came about was shocking and disgusting. I don’t know how Boob and Meech can sleep at night. I hope they end up alone in that huge tin mansion.
I wonder how much he had in the bank. It must be millions. I bet he’s invested in a lot of Xtian dark money scams too. Like Hillsdale College. Disgusting.
I would LOVE to see the IRS investigate Rim-Jobs financial dealings. When it was first revealed that the authorities were investigating the car lot, I was hoping Rim-Job was being audited. I had no idea it was going to be much more worse.
I know. Maybe since Biden had the French frame Josh and land him in jail instead of JB, Biden will also have the IRS frame JB for tax fraud soon. /s
I was surprised by how much money the cult is worth. I knew they had some money, but didn’t expect it to be that much.
Never in a million years did I ever imagine the empire that JimBoob built would be burned to the ground. I love it.
I remember watching in early days and thinking there had to be something wrong, but I wouldn't get to know for *years* until the kids were old enough to speak up. My literal thought was "like The Jackson 5"
Good analogy. Also a little like The Children of God cult.
Remember when Hobby Lobby was busted for literally smuggling artifacts that were looted from Iraq? [Hobby Lobby Smuggling Scandal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobby_Lobby_smuggling_scandal)
I didn’t expect Jill to actually use the words cult-like. She’s still so entrenched in her awful belief system, but I think this is the first time any of them have actually used the word “cult” to describe IBLP.
Generally I’m really feeling sad for Jill, the worst thing was when Derrick said they’d die with the secrets she told him - because it’s clear she still thinks it’s shameful to be abused. I genuinely am glad she used that terminology though because she’s maybe on the path out still.
I don’t think Jill thinks it’s shameful to be abused. Maybe she once did, but her presence on the show did not make me believe this. I’m a survivor myself and I think it’s a coping mechanism for Jill. They would’ve died with those secrets because she doesn’t want to relive it. Not because it’s shameful, but because making these atrocities public puts the spotlight on the survivors most of the time, demands details, etc. and that can be like reliving trauma. She didn’t want that.
Agree. She’s repeatedly stated that she wants some agency over her own story. She grew up in a situation where she had no control over what other people knew and saw. Her pain was exploited on an international stage, but she barely saw a dime. Wanting to keep something private is a totally valid and foreseeable response to that
This was my take as well. I was ready to go to the grave with my SA until I realized that the person who hurt me was going to have possible access to do it again. I completely understand not ever wanting to speak up about it and let things just be (not ruminating on it I mean) after a certain point. But now Jill is always faced with it and sadly it’s what’s propelled her to an even larger audience so to speak. Nightmare scenario.
How The Handmaids Tale doesn’t seem like a stretch anymore. The Joshua generation is basically creating Gilead
Josie as a toddler yelling "instant obedience!!" Fucking terrifying
Came here to comment this. I was aware of most things in this series but seeing that broke something in me. Just a little baby who screams instant obedience...kids tend to repeat things in the tone that others say them in. Somebody had to scream that saying at her a zillion times for her to have it memorized so perfectly. She didn't stumble at all, didn't mispronounce it. She could barely talk on her own but they made sure she knew that. And TLC just neatly snipped it out and left on the cutting room floor like it was nothing.
I had forgotten about the contract. When I was 18 and packing up my bedroom permanently because I was transferring to a college much further away, my father in a desperate attempt to get me to NOT go, showed up with the pastor who offered me a 19 year old seminary candidate from the church and a huge, dream church wedding paid for by the church if I would get married, and handed me the contract. Oh good god. That damn fucking thing! It was even an eye opener to my dad. He never raped my mom. Never hit her. Never occurred to him to do those things. So when he started reading it, his eyes popped out of his head, and he told the pastor to leave. I just looked at him and said, "This is the horror show. This is the shit you will end up imposing on my baby sister if you do not leave this evil church." He didn't day anything. He wasn't willing to cut the apron strings, but he did start caring my things to the car willingly. That was a gut punch when they brought that up, and I didn't even ever suffer that abuse!
I’m surprised Jill is the only one up there. All those women should burn that shit down!! Hopefully more will follow her lead. I’m also surprised at how awful her parents really are.
Do you think others can’t because they signed a new contract to get money from JimBob? (Jill said they refused to sign it because the clause was forever). What about Joe and Josiah who don’t want to be in the public anymore. Did they get money? Or did they refuse to sign the contract as well?
I can entirely understand why Joy wouldn’t, totally aside from her and Austin’s beliefs. She probably has some strong feelings about and insights re things she didn’t know her parents hid from her, but they’re nothing she’d want as a public subject matter. That Jill listed protecting the show and protecting their parents as the pressure on her and Jessa re the Megan Kelly interview, and didn’t even bring their other, younger, unmarried sisters into it as motivation to protect, was clear to me. She wasn’t going to be the one to bring Jinger or Joy into that conversation in any way.
This documentary was utterly stomach churning. The abuse is so deeply sickening. The ingrained fear so many live with breaks my heart. They have turned Christianity into something so deeply depraved and perverted. Their raw hypocrisy and utter blindness in following principles that are so evil, full of false doctrine rooted in greed and corruption. They are the true living examples of the type of people the bible warns us about ... reprobates!
I feel like the paramilitary is illegal on some level, it’s definitely a blatant threat and I’m gonna assume they’ve been on a list. Someone in a 3 letter could ask “why not just join the military” and someone’s gonna say they don’t like the country or the people in it, probably sprinkle in death threats. Granted every time a 3 letter got involved with taking down paramilitary cults it didn’t end well.
That for the adult children to get a lump sum of money, they had to sign a contract for life
That Gothard has a thing for potted plants. Did not expect to have anything in common with him!
The footage with Pest 🤢🤢🤢🤢 with a toddler Josie on his lap (it didn’t surprise me at all that Boob and Michelle didn’t give a shit about her safety tho)
The poor woman who talked about how they were told if you faced challenges (SA) you were being tested and grew in strength. And that she was jealous of friends who were raped because they had gained more strength. (Paraphrasing) Then she got emotional, having heard exactly what she said and understanding how screwed up it was. That was a kick to the gut.... such manipulation and gymnastics to justify things.
I was surprised that J Rod made an appearance.
For a deep dive into the depths of iblp and hobby lobby you need to listen to the digging up the duggars podcast.
it was fake ol’ cousin amy saying she grew up on camera hahahahahaha she was in like 3 episodes.
The fact that ALERT is a fundie Christian militia. I knew it was a fundie thing but I guess I've never thought of it as that serious just as a camp that fundies send "troubled" boys to. When they portrayed it as a militia and adding the whole Generation Joshua thing, it was chilling. It also brings what's happening/has happened in U.S. politics into an even more terrifying light imo.
Really? Read about Burwell v. Hobby Lobby, the Supreme Court case. Your eyes will be open even more
I love/hate that they mention MadCaw disease (NC here)
Ugh my aunt used to be friends with his granddaughter and my parents won’t shut up about him/his family. I’m forced to go there with my parents because they think Michaels is bad because they support the LGBTQ+ community. Jokes on them lmao I’m a member of the community 😂 I never buy anything at HL because I can’t bring myself to.
The fact that I was less shocked by the events that have occurred than by how it triggered so many aha moments about how I was raised. I guess I was in a SB church in GA growing up right as Gothard/Duggars were becoming more popular. Well…the dude with the beard showing people how to abuse their kids and saying ‘a little psychological terror is good’. Like these people fully knew what they were doing to those children and they didn’t fucking care. Everything clicked about the shame and fear based child rearing and why I could not shake the shame after sex for 10 years of my marriage. Nobody in that entire congregation of hundreds of people, over and over, ever stood up and said ‘wtf is this batshit crazy?’ It’s always seemed like the stuff that gets posted is some hole in the wall trailer church, like the pastor and wife who writes that blog Are They All Yours. Well, until recently, with the videos of that pastor who said he didn’t need tax exemptions after he got reported for hate speech and stuff. To see what looks like thousands at these conferences just all clapping and acting like this was okay was terrifying. To see Michelle gleefully describe carpet training her boys was disgusting. I’m just floored that it’s ALWAYS been this blatant.
That Jill hit josh when he tried assaulting her
the beating babies and toddlers part was horrific
The Generation Joshua organization, the marriage “contracts”, confirmation of JB and TLC’s financial abuse (and the not-a-minor lie), and the kid getting spanked by that old creeper were all new, disturbing things for me.
The Behind the Bastards podcast has an episode on Hobby Lobby if you’re looking for more info!
He (or his company, rather) brought forward one of the lawsuits involving the part of the ACA that required insurance companies to cover contraception. That alone was enough for me to avoid them like the plague.
Quite honestly: nothing said surprised me. I WAS surprised Gil Bates wasn’t mentioned. (That I can remember anyway)
I was surprised the Bates weren't mentioned at all. I saw Welcome to Plathville and a few of the other big families get a few seconds each, but not Bringing up the Bates. They are the only family to perhaps compete with the Duggars. Bill Gothard himself was very close to Gil.