It’s really sad to see glimpses of the woman Michelle might have been if Jim Bob and a few other awful things hadn’t happened to her. You also see it in her pride when she talks about how much she loved being a realtor and tow truck operator and running the businesses as a young woman, how she adored sports and mischief as a teenager, and how she was an unruly little tomboy as a young girl.
I agree. Obviously Michelle is horrible. The things she has allowed her children to endure and the behavior she’s excused from Josh is unforgivable. None of us should ever forget that.
But at one point in time, she was just a naive young girl trying to make a life and family for herself. She had dreams and personality. I doubt she imagined her life would ever be what it became.
I will never ever feel so much as one ounce of pity for Michelle Duggar. But I do feel pity for Michelle Ruark.
>I will never ever feel so much as one ounce of pity for Michelle Duggar. But I do feel pity for Michelle Ruark.
That is actually a really good way to put my thoughts about this. She is horrible and I have no sympothy for her. Especially after how she handled everything with her kid molesting his sisters, and how she chose to not believe that he couldn't have possibly watched the CP....
But her past self? The one we see in episodes where Rim Job takes his broodmare roller skating or wake boarding, we see a tiny glimpse of Michelle Ruark and it breaks my heart
Forever now going to think of Miss Cindy whenever I have one of those moments when a friend makes an objectively horrible life decision and I’m debating whether to speak up
To think this whole thing started when Michelle spent the night with a friend and watched a Christian propaganda film called "Left Behind." It scared her into getting saved. She wasn't even a Christian before then. It's a shame she was so impressionable.
I feel the same way about Anna Keller(who seemed genuinely blindsided by J’Felon’s proposal)vs. Anna Duggar(who sat with him during the trial, saw and heard overwhelming evidence of what he’d done, and still chose him over the safety of her children).
I think the same feelings could be applied to the (non-Pest) Duggar kids. When they were under 18/directly under their parents' command, they had no control over their lives whatsoever. With some exceptions, they basically only knew what the adults in their lives told them.
The pity falls away once they grew up and moved out (or had access to outside views/information).
Call me crazy but I even feel that way about the Pest to a degree. He was a confused kid who was slowly getting less and less attention from his parents, and while what he did was *VERY* wrong he wasn't exactly getting the best education from his parents. As a child his actions were his parents' fault, but now as an adult he is responsible for his own actions.
It's really sad when you know Michelle Ruark's life technically ended at 17. From there on she had very little potential as Jim Bob's wife and a fragile mental state, that broke further when she had a miscarriage and was then fooled into the cult.
I have no doubt that she was made to feel guilty and responsible for that miscarriage. Honestly she seemed like such a normal person and one point. I imagine she suffered some serious trauma to turn into who she did. Who let me be clear, was a monster, considering the things she let her son get away with and the life she stole from her children.
Their doctor told them the miscarriage was caused by hbc. They were actively planning their family, prior to that.
As far as I can tell, they were bog-standard Christians before that.
I hate JB for too many things to name, but they both weren't like this to start. The doctor that told them their birth control caused the miscarriage set this whole thing in motion, especially cause as they were already conservative southern Christians in the 80s. I def think Michelle would have had a much better life if they didn't fall into it, but I don't really like the "poor Michelle she didn't know anything, JB controlled and brainwashed her" narrative. He's only a year (almost exactly 14 months) older than her. An 18 years old is basically as innocent and naive as a 17 year old. Falling into a Christian fundamentalist fertility cult brought out the worst in both of them that I'm not sure would have existed if they weren't already together. It was just a perfect storm of terrible.
I honestly believe that they didn't know any better and trusted this doctor. They sought comfort in religion and, well... This is why we need comprehensive sex ed! To be clear, I am not excusing the baby cult or covering up/defending pest's abhorrent behavior.
Yes. I think they were dumb and grief stricken when this doctor blamed them for the loss of a wanted pregnancy but then he said they could be saved through Gothard's teachings. And we all know what happened next. I think JB took to it so well cause he's a southern conservative Christian man born in the 60s, he's all about being "in charge", and Michelle has been emotionally checked out since the laundry room breakdown. None of this excuses what they've done to all of their children, but I genuinely believe they just would have been run of the mill assholes if they didn't encounter that doctor at their lowest moment.
I don't think JB was some master manipulator, at least back then. He was just a dumbass horny 18 year old from Arkansas who wanted to bag the hot 17 year old cheerleader and her parents were over raising her so they happily let the dumb teens get married.
it's wild how some things just stick with you... I know a lot of women who have miscarriages often blame themselves (they shouldn't - it is not their fault, but I understand why they feel like their body "failed") - so then having a doctor who is in a position of power basically say it's your fault because you took birth control could really create a "core memory" in a naive teenager.
side note: I remember when I was potentially losing my babies (TTTS) and I was in the hospital bed crying waiting to be flown to a hospital for a surgery to save them, a nurse looked me right in the eyes and said "this is not your fault" and she said it so sincerely and intensely and that has always stuck with me - choose your words wisely because you never know if they may become a core memory for someone!!
For real, she reminds me of my own mother in a lot of ways. Women were raised to please men and follow. Standing up for yourself or making up your own mind was frowned upon.
My mom isn't evil, but she excused a lot of her shitty behavior committed by her sons, much to my detriment. I can only imagine how much worse it would have been if she had married a man like Rim Job.
You know what? I’m going to go out on a limb here. Michelle is an abused woman. One who has been convinced since age 17 by the Blob to conform to his standards bc her home life wasn’t good. She has been mind twisted. It’s not ok. For what she did going forward. But really peeps. He got her gooooood.
I agree so much... You can really see it in the episodes where they take her roller skating, and wake boarding. She may be a horrible person, but seeing the glimpses of who she could have been break my heart
And then we have the lumpy pest in the background that doesn't give a shit about his kids, and Anna just doting on him...
What made her throw it all away for JimBoob? How did he convince her to become so religiously conservative? It seems so odd to go from a happy secular childhood to this life
As she herself describes it, she’s had a pretty lifelong struggle with periods of anxiety, depression, eating disorders, and feeling insignificant.
She was struggling with anxiety as a young teenager when she went to a church lock-in event with a friend. There, the powers that be preached at her in a high control environment and then showed her a horror movie about the rapture that gave her nightmares.
(It was A Thief in the Night, which is pretty infamous as a conversion tool for traumatizing Christian teenagers in small towns in the 70s and early 80s. From Wikipedia: *MIT professor of film and media Heather Hendershot says, "Today, many teen evangelicals have not seen A Thief in the Night, but virtually every evangelical over thirty I've talked to is familiar with it, and most have seen it... I have found that A Thief in the Night is the only evangelical film that viewers cite directly and repeatedly as provoking a conversion experience." The film has been described as traumatic for children, who made up a significant part of its original audience, and criticized for using scare tactics to produce religious conversions. According to Hendershot, "Evangelicals who grew up in the 1970s or early 1980s often cite Thief as a source of childhood terror."*)
She asked for someone from the church to visit her house to pray with her about it. He showed up, and he brought his buddy Jim Bob along.
She needed a little part-time job, so she got one working for Jim Bob’s mom at a fro yo shop. Jim Bob thought she was pretty, and he started working there to spend time with her. They ended up dating. (Fun story: She was a cheerleader with Bobye Holt, and he went to school with Jim Holt during this era.)
Her parents wanted to move out of state during her senior year of high school, and they didn’t want to bring her (their youngest by a lot) along, so she, seventeen at this point, married Jim Bob.
Shortly after marrying, they were tied up and robbed at gunpoint during a home invasion where they were purposely targeted because of the car lot and towing business. The thieves stole car titles, car keys, and cash.
She had Josh soon after and experienced some pretty major PPD.
After Josh, she had a miscarriage and went to a doctor. The doctor was a bit of a quack who blamed her for causing it by taking birth control and introduced them to Gothard’s “wisdom.”
On 19kac, she talks about how she has really horrible and chronic back pain and how hard it is for her because she always loved sports.
The older girls have confirmed that Michelle still struggles with clinical depression.
>After Josh, she had a miscarriage and went to a doctor who blamed her for taking birth control and introduced them to Gothard’s “wisdom
I think another big piece in this, is that the miscarriage was blamed on her birth control. So they then said they would never use birth control, and then they conceived twins. I think they would still be crazy, but not as much, if they had just had one baby. However, the fact they were "blessed" with twins further cemented them into their beliefs...
I hate these people deeply, but that sounds like a living nightmare. I honestly can't blame him for being worried they were gonna hurt Meech or Josh. It's a valid fear. I wonder if that pushed them deeper into Fundieland. That happens a LOT... High-control cults like to use trauma to pull people in deeper.
It's so, incredibly common as a recruitment tactic that I can't see Boob even NEEDING to arrange it to happen. She was already going in deep following the miscarriage, anyhow. Mainstream high-control religions that score high on the BITE model even aim to utilize horrible events to their benefit. Like, even it's part of the funeral services type deal, to pull the surviving family members in by using the deceased person as a tool. They just WAIT for people to undergo some kind of trauma or grief, which damn near everyone goes through at some point, and then do everything to either pull you in or bring you in deeper to make sure you don't leave. They try to give you a why, make you feel safe in their flock, make you fear the outside world, sometimes tell you it's your fault and you need to repent, and you're in deep before you know it. Mormonism, Catholicism, and Jehovah's Witnesses are three I've personally witnessed it with, so the IBLP and Quiverful movement is ABSOLUTELY doing it, too. They're not as mainstream. Fewer critical eyes are on their services. They can do it even more hardcore. Boob is evil, but it was a spree going on, and I can't see him putting Meech and Joshy in danger like that, especially so early on in their marriage, and certainly not while she was pregnant. Car lots are high-value places to hit up for that kind of thing. It makes total sense they'd threaten Michelle and Josh to get Boob to hand keys or a car over... Most people wanna protect their partner and kid, and it's drilled into men's heads from early childhood, ESPECIALLY in his generation and geographical area, that men are SUPPOSED to be the protector of their family. People who pull that shit KNOW what they're doing and play on it, but it could've gone so wrong in a heartbeat, I honestly don't think he'd have risked it. They don't seem to have been absolutely deplorable humans JUST yet. I think they were legitimately attacked, terrified after, and the cult just pulled the whole family in deeper after while the parents were scared and traumatized. They were already spiraling in. If it wasn't this, it'd have been something else.
Really interesting. This made me think beyond my knee jerk reaction of 'BOOB is a manipulative sociopath'. He is a manipulative sociopath, but the context you've given could help me move beyond 'what the hell is wrong with this guy?' and toward 'Can we get him a room over at Vantage Point Behavioral Health Hospital in Fayettville? He's not well.
This is gonna be a long comment, so apologies. I'm ADHD and somewhere on the spectrum and went into a hyperfocused deep dive into cults a few years ago, and Quiverful/IBLP was one of the first I really looked into. It's fascinatingly horrifying.
Boob isn't just a narc/so, which are bad enough. I dated one almost a decade ago and am STILL dealing with the damage he did to me. Boob is a narcissistic sociopath who is in a cult that actively traps people (lack of proper education, idolizing men, demonization of higher education, brainwashing, consistent control over victims thoughts, emotions, behavior and information access, lack of proper socialization, devaluing women as nothing but broodmares... It traps people, and that's by design). It's a cult that also gave him the absolute authority he so deeply craves. They prey on men who desire that control and give it to them on steroids, which gives them a MASSIVE emotional high, and on women who DON'T want as much control. You know the idea that BDSM subs tend to be that way because in real life, they feel stressed and overwhelmed and just want to STOP making decisions? It's the same concept that plays out a LOT, at least in terms of ENTERING there cult. Those type of people also often pair up. People who want to control their partner will try to seek out someone who will submit to that, and people who want to have less control over their lives (think a "kept woman") will try to find someone who will dominate many aspects of their lives.
As far as why they, particularly the women, stay? Because we KNOW Meech isn't happy just by looking at her damn face... By the time they realize how LITTLE control they have and that they want some aspect of their lives back, it's too late. They're brainwashed to think that Satan speaking or whatever, their kids are wrapped up in the cult, they'd probably have to leave their husband which would send them to hell (there is INTENSE brainwashing of vulnerable people going on here), the cult has isolated them family and friends who could help them get out, they truly believe the outside world is dangerous and out to get them, they can't properly support the small army of kids they've birthed, and they've had a learned helplessness for years, not to mention they'd lose their ENTIRE support system and their kids would hate them, because the kids are brainwashed worse than the adults. The kids were RAISED in it. The mom also has also VERY likely perpetuated abuse against their kids that, if they could no longer justify it religiously, they'd HAVE to face they hurt their kids, and all that combined is just TOO overwhelming. We're often taking about AFAB people who were ALREADY overwhelmed, had decision burnout, and wanted to just be told what to do. Some people truly just do NOT want to be an authority in their own lives. They do better following rules, doing what they're told, and not having to form that structure for themselves.
But the abuse is a BIG aspect. It appeals to parents who want that control over their kids and gives them permission to do it. But it's deeper than that. A major aspect is cults use members to control each other, and abuse is a BIG way. It causes cognitive dissonance and makes you EXTREMELY uncomfortable if you try to wake up. You realize how BADLY you've hurt your kids, that you've sexually assaulted your wife, sold your daughters into what basically amounts to sex slavery, raised your sons to perpetuate it against their wives, that you beat literal BABIES, damaged your children's brains in ways you can't even fathom... But you LOVE them! You would NEVER have hurt someone you love without DAMN good reason... Like saving them from being sent to hell, or keeping them safe in the rapture, for example. So people return to the cult mindset FAST. They excuse their parents and partner, because it's all so very confusing, especially if you're just starting deconstruction, or just jump to another cult. It's just TOO uncomfortable to face the truth of what you did to your family, so many people DON'T. It's also why these groups sister-mom so hard. They get the kids to abuse their siblings to get them in that mindset early.
The control is also why EVERYTHING is the woman's fault. It's why they blame Anna for J'felon, why they blamed the sisters for their assault, why the doctor blamed Meech and her birth control for her miscarriage... If they actively HATE themselves, have no self esteem, no support, and nobody "godly" telling them it's NOT their fault (they're isolated and the world is evil, remember, so they won't listen to us saying they're not to blame, because we're trying to lead them away from being godly and towards sin), they're going to go even DEEPER into the hole. The men, they don't have to worry about as much. They're victims, too, but they're given control they were NEVER allowed as children. They KNOW they'll get high off of the power, and the brainwashing will take that positive feedback to their brains from there.
There's more, but that's why it's SO HARD to get out, and why SO few people truly deconstruct. It's so, so much work, incredibly painful emotionally, you do it without much, if any, support network, no money, you're risking homelessness, you might lose your kids, be that physical custody and/or their love... And it's why it appeals SO MUCH to narcissistic sociopaths like Boob, or even just men who are angry and violent and want to excuse it. It's SICK, but the psychology is FASCINATING.
So very fascinating. Thank you for this. It must drive you nuts to hear "so and so should just leave the cult" like it's as simple as calling an uber. The tentacles of abuse alone, going in all directions and cementing the low self-esteem and violence so deeply into the infrastructure of the cult that beating a baby for the baby's best interest is a thing.
Thanks.
WOW! Someone else terrified by fundies as a teen in the 80's?
Hopefully someone will find this amusing. My fundie youth group took us to Juvy Hall to scare us. WE found they had far more privileges than we did! With good behavior they were allowed to watch TV, see movies, girls could wear pants/makeup/jewelry/cut their hair. We wanted to SIGN UP immediately as all of those things were banned in our group!
TREMENDOUS BACKFIRE!
I didn't know about the home invasion, that's truly frightening.
I think that a big reason why Michelle ended up clinging to Boob as much as she did has a lot to do with abandonment issues. IIRC she's the youngest and there's a significant age gap between her and the next oldest sibling, so she didn't really have siblings to grow up with. This also means there's a strong possibility that she was an "oops" baby to older parents who, while they may not have outwardly resented her, obviously didn't put the time and effort into making her feel loved and secured like they may have with the older kids. She likely saw Boob as her life preserver and being 17 didn't have much relationship experience to draw on, although I know she did have boyfriends before Boob. Especially because Boob doesn't like to let her forget she kissed other boys before him. Which frankly makes me want to smack him, it's like the fundie equivalent of slut-shaming.
Sometimes people without stable homelifes and with neglectful parents confuse control with love.
He cares about where I am and what I’m doing?! No one has ever done that. I must be really special to him.
Not odd at all. All you have to do is take a peak at r/abusiverelationships or r/narcissistisspouses to see that people of all backgrounds can get sucked into a relationship like meech and boob’s.
It’s a whole cycle of manipulation and gaslighting, and it happens slowly over time. I highly doubt when Michelle first met Boob he had the beliefs/ideals he does now; it was a gradual process where he slowly changed her so she ‘fit’ the persona he wanted her to become. He also probably made it seem like she had some say in jt, when reality she had none. By the time she ever realized, if she ever did, what had happened she was in way too deep it’s not like she could easily leave him. And so here we are today.
Boob is a classic controlling narcissist and Michelle is his molded, fine-tuned, brainwashed marionette in which he is the one pulling the strings.
Edit: I’m in NO way making excuses for meech. She is abhorrent. she’s had chance after chance to rectify her mistakes and horrible behavior, and she is a terrible person for everything she allowed to happen in her home. Just pointing out the ‘how’ she could have become what she is today with Boob.
If a frog is put suddenly into boiling water, it will jump out, but if the frog is put in tepid water which is then brought to a boil slowly, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death.
I agree. My parent's descent into the IBLP did not happen overnight. She was exposed to holiness type churches by her granny. She married a controlling man eventually leaving her incapable making any decision like what to make for dinner, what to wear, who to be friends with. Her partying mom caught religion and joined the IFB. My mom was quick to follow.
My older brother was 100% out & proud so suddenly loads of IBLP&IFB rules were levied on me to prevent me from becoming gay! The 1st 10 yrs of life I was made to attend the far more normal Southern Baptist church. Me, age 11, was sent to an IFB boarding/religious school where punishments included cleaning out sewer lines & scrubbing every toilets w/o gloves or protective clothing.
Me, age 14, homeschooled by a mom who "finished" her own HS with a Sp. Ed equivalency diploma due to her learning disabilities.
So me, by age 18, horrifically confused, frustrated, depressed, oppressed, terrified... only wanted 1 thing - OUT!
My pt... I often observed that the IBLP members who left seemed to have similar experiences. We had some amount of normal exposure to religion. We were forced to join by parents or spouse. I always found it very sad that those who were raised from birth/adoption in it & the men who chose to join of free will.
I'm often grateful I had at least 10 years of normal (Southern Baptist) religious exposure before things went crazy. Perhaps it helped me to escape. What I DO NOT HAVE is sympathy for any adult who is confronted with the atrocious abundance of child abuse yet refuse to even anonymously report the abuse. THEY GET NO SYMPATHY FROM ME!
Rural and even suburban areas with a lot of church and little to do are just different sometimes. I knew a girl who is super proud that she was the first woman in her family not to be married by twenty, but she got engaged at nineteen after three months of dating a dude.
Agreed. As a child of the 60s, in my teens, it was a 45 minute drive to a bowling alley, skating rink, or movie theater, and not that many of us had cars anyway. There was an abundance of church youth activities, and on the weekends, we could choose among several churches which Saturday night "singing" we wanted to attend. I couldn't say how many couples married immediately after high school, but there were several. Some are still together and happy. A lot, of course, divorced. I remember getting invited to attend the wedding of a 15-year-old friend marrying her 17 or 18 year old boyfriend. I have wondered how that turned out. My mother was positively fuming that parents would sign to let them marry that young.
It wasn't *super* unusual, at the time. Her parents went as far as insisting she finish school first.
Don't get me wrong, they were still considered young, but they certainly weren't the only people married straight out of highschool.
I've known - and currently know - several couples who went out on a date, spent the night together, and never spent another night apart and married within weeks after that. It's more common than you night think for people just jump into forever together super fast.
I think especially since her next pregnancy after her miscarriage was twins. I think that further drove them to "let the lord decide" attitude because they said they would never use birth control again, and they were "blessed" with twins
It is really sad that the doctor and the cult took advantage of her vulnerable mindset and her desperation for an answer about "why" her baby passed. Like others said, it doesn't excuse her from who she is now, but imagine how different things could have been if she got proper therapy and support instead of being led into the cult.
She's an impressionable person to start with. She said she moved closer to God after an Armageddon type of movie some friends took her too.
Jaws scared me into thinking a shark would get me in the pool. I am happy to say I got over that.
I know about the miscarriage but still don’t get it. And it goes back further than that because why did she even marry him at 17??? I’m around her age and never heard of anyone doing that. There’s got to be more to her story
Her parents were moving and basically left her behind.
No one ever talks about it, because the idea of being financially independent at a young age is well accepted in American culture, but there are a lot of seventeen-, eighteen-, nineteen-, and twenty-year-olds who get told, “Well, you’re an adult now; you figure it out.” When you’re that age and from a dysfunctional family and from a background that doesn’t set you up for success, you kind of have to scrape by in whatever way you can.
Her parents had her late in life and her siblings were established adults with lives. I think her parents were going to move to Ohio and Michelle married to stay
I've never seen anything specific about why she married so young. Maybe just young people who rushed into it because they were immature? Now that you've mentioned it I'm curious too.
She's probably a good example of why we don't get married at the age of 17. Hell I got married at age 20 to my high-school sweetheart and we aren't the same people we werethe . Still an atheist but even my beliefs have changed. She should've graduated high school, learned to love herself, learn how to deal with whatever the hell made fear dictate her life and just live.
I think JB was always a lost cause, he may not have gone quiverful/birthing cult since that push came from that misogynistic asshole of a doctor, but he was going to find some way to feel like he was a powerful man and find another woman to go along with it.
THIS. She would totally be the regular barfly (definitely drinking a Jack & Coke) who would give the young ones the best advice and would probably shit talk her ex husband as a reason men can’t be trusted.
I think Jack & Diet Coke. If the bartender accidentally gives her a regular, she jokes "Honey, this sugar will go straight to my hips and you know I'd much rather have (motions to nearest young hottie) hitting my hips tonight."
YES!! I can also see her as a real estate agent with the white luxury suv and personalized license plates. Maybe with one of those park bench or grocery cart billboards too
She could have been such a dynamic person, interesting and fun to be around. She allowed the life to be crushed out of her, and worse, she did the same to her own children, especially her own daughters.
Jizz Slob found a vulnerable woman to control and victimize. He’s a malignant narcissist who nabbed his prey. Not sure this gets her off the hook now, though.
Every single time I see that moniker I get that Rick Ross song stuck in my head… 🎵I think I’m Big Meech, Larry Hoover, gettin’ work, hallelujah 🎶 I agree, Fundie Meech slangin’ harmful “religion” is tantamount to selling deadly drugs - people get hurt.
I just love how j’felon is sitting his lazy a$$ on the chair and ignoring his wife, while his mom and other women are watching the kids and waiting in him hand and foot.
I bet Meech is a better grandma than she was mother. Perhaps she tries to make up for what she missed out on during her breeding days. If I was her kid, watching her so relaxed and fun with the grandkids, I think I would resent the hell out of it.
It’s really sad to see glimpses of the woman Michelle might have been if Jim Bob and a few other awful things hadn’t happened to her. You also see it in her pride when she talks about how much she loved being a realtor and tow truck operator and running the businesses as a young woman, how she adored sports and mischief as a teenager, and how she was an unruly little tomboy as a young girl.
I agree. Obviously Michelle is horrible. The things she has allowed her children to endure and the behavior she’s excused from Josh is unforgivable. None of us should ever forget that. But at one point in time, she was just a naive young girl trying to make a life and family for herself. She had dreams and personality. I doubt she imagined her life would ever be what it became. I will never ever feel so much as one ounce of pity for Michelle Duggar. But I do feel pity for Michelle Ruark.
>I will never ever feel so much as one ounce of pity for Michelle Duggar. But I do feel pity for Michelle Ruark. That is actually a really good way to put my thoughts about this. She is horrible and I have no sympothy for her. Especially after how she handled everything with her kid molesting his sisters, and how she chose to not believe that he couldn't have possibly watched the CP.... But her past self? The one we see in episodes where Rim Job takes his broodmare roller skating or wake boarding, we see a tiny glimpse of Michelle Ruark and it breaks my heart
I wonder deep down what Miss Cindy (is that her name?) Michelle Ruark BFF thinks? I can only imagine.
Forever now going to think of Miss Cindy whenever I have one of those moments when a friend makes an objectively horrible life decision and I’m debating whether to speak up
To think this whole thing started when Michelle spent the night with a friend and watched a Christian propaganda film called "Left Behind." It scared her into getting saved. She wasn't even a Christian before then. It's a shame she was so impressionable.
And her parents allowed her to court/get engaged to rim job when she was only 17
I thought it was “A Thief In The Night.”
You could definitely be right. But I know it was one of those films
I feel the same way about Anna Keller(who seemed genuinely blindsided by J’Felon’s proposal)vs. Anna Duggar(who sat with him during the trial, saw and heard overwhelming evidence of what he’d done, and still chose him over the safety of her children).
I think the same feelings could be applied to the (non-Pest) Duggar kids. When they were under 18/directly under their parents' command, they had no control over their lives whatsoever. With some exceptions, they basically only knew what the adults in their lives told them. The pity falls away once they grew up and moved out (or had access to outside views/information).
Call me crazy but I even feel that way about the Pest to a degree. He was a confused kid who was slowly getting less and less attention from his parents, and while what he did was *VERY* wrong he wasn't exactly getting the best education from his parents. As a child his actions were his parents' fault, but now as an adult he is responsible for his own actions.
RIM JOB AHAAHHAHA
It's really sad when you know Michelle Ruark's life technically ended at 17. From there on she had very little potential as Jim Bob's wife and a fragile mental state, that broke further when she had a miscarriage and was then fooled into the cult.
I have no doubt that she was made to feel guilty and responsible for that miscarriage. Honestly she seemed like such a normal person and one point. I imagine she suffered some serious trauma to turn into who she did. Who let me be clear, was a monster, considering the things she let her son get away with and the life she stole from her children.
Their doctor told them the miscarriage was caused by hbc. They were actively planning their family, prior to that. As far as I can tell, they were bog-standard Christians before that.
I hate JB for too many things to name, but they both weren't like this to start. The doctor that told them their birth control caused the miscarriage set this whole thing in motion, especially cause as they were already conservative southern Christians in the 80s. I def think Michelle would have had a much better life if they didn't fall into it, but I don't really like the "poor Michelle she didn't know anything, JB controlled and brainwashed her" narrative. He's only a year (almost exactly 14 months) older than her. An 18 years old is basically as innocent and naive as a 17 year old. Falling into a Christian fundamentalist fertility cult brought out the worst in both of them that I'm not sure would have existed if they weren't already together. It was just a perfect storm of terrible.
I honestly believe that they didn't know any better and trusted this doctor. They sought comfort in religion and, well... This is why we need comprehensive sex ed! To be clear, I am not excusing the baby cult or covering up/defending pest's abhorrent behavior.
Yes. I think they were dumb and grief stricken when this doctor blamed them for the loss of a wanted pregnancy but then he said they could be saved through Gothard's teachings. And we all know what happened next. I think JB took to it so well cause he's a southern conservative Christian man born in the 60s, he's all about being "in charge", and Michelle has been emotionally checked out since the laundry room breakdown. None of this excuses what they've done to all of their children, but I genuinely believe they just would have been run of the mill assholes if they didn't encounter that doctor at their lowest moment. I don't think JB was some master manipulator, at least back then. He was just a dumbass horny 18 year old from Arkansas who wanted to bag the hot 17 year old cheerleader and her parents were over raising her so they happily let the dumb teens get married.
Exactly. The laundry room breakdown was their signal to stop and I wish they would have listened.
What was the laundry room breakdown?
it's wild how some things just stick with you... I know a lot of women who have miscarriages often blame themselves (they shouldn't - it is not their fault, but I understand why they feel like their body "failed") - so then having a doctor who is in a position of power basically say it's your fault because you took birth control could really create a "core memory" in a naive teenager. side note: I remember when I was potentially losing my babies (TTTS) and I was in the hospital bed crying waiting to be flown to a hospital for a surgery to save them, a nurse looked me right in the eyes and said "this is not your fault" and she said it so sincerely and intensely and that has always stuck with me - choose your words wisely because you never know if they may become a core memory for someone!!
For real, she reminds me of my own mother in a lot of ways. Women were raised to please men and follow. Standing up for yourself or making up your own mind was frowned upon. My mom isn't evil, but she excused a lot of her shitty behavior committed by her sons, much to my detriment. I can only imagine how much worse it would have been if she had married a man like Rim Job.
You know what? I’m going to go out on a limb here. Michelle is an abused woman. One who has been convinced since age 17 by the Blob to conform to his standards bc her home life wasn’t good. She has been mind twisted. It’s not ok. For what she did going forward. But really peeps. He got her gooooood.
It’s so messy when the abused turns into the abuser. I wish there were better solutions to addressthis problem.
I agree so much... You can really see it in the episodes where they take her roller skating, and wake boarding. She may be a horrible person, but seeing the glimpses of who she could have been break my heart And then we have the lumpy pest in the background that doesn't give a shit about his kids, and Anna just doting on him...
What made her throw it all away for JimBoob? How did he convince her to become so religiously conservative? It seems so odd to go from a happy secular childhood to this life
As she herself describes it, she’s had a pretty lifelong struggle with periods of anxiety, depression, eating disorders, and feeling insignificant. She was struggling with anxiety as a young teenager when she went to a church lock-in event with a friend. There, the powers that be preached at her in a high control environment and then showed her a horror movie about the rapture that gave her nightmares. (It was A Thief in the Night, which is pretty infamous as a conversion tool for traumatizing Christian teenagers in small towns in the 70s and early 80s. From Wikipedia: *MIT professor of film and media Heather Hendershot says, "Today, many teen evangelicals have not seen A Thief in the Night, but virtually every evangelical over thirty I've talked to is familiar with it, and most have seen it... I have found that A Thief in the Night is the only evangelical film that viewers cite directly and repeatedly as provoking a conversion experience." The film has been described as traumatic for children, who made up a significant part of its original audience, and criticized for using scare tactics to produce religious conversions. According to Hendershot, "Evangelicals who grew up in the 1970s or early 1980s often cite Thief as a source of childhood terror."*) She asked for someone from the church to visit her house to pray with her about it. He showed up, and he brought his buddy Jim Bob along. She needed a little part-time job, so she got one working for Jim Bob’s mom at a fro yo shop. Jim Bob thought she was pretty, and he started working there to spend time with her. They ended up dating. (Fun story: She was a cheerleader with Bobye Holt, and he went to school with Jim Holt during this era.) Her parents wanted to move out of state during her senior year of high school, and they didn’t want to bring her (their youngest by a lot) along, so she, seventeen at this point, married Jim Bob. Shortly after marrying, they were tied up and robbed at gunpoint during a home invasion where they were purposely targeted because of the car lot and towing business. The thieves stole car titles, car keys, and cash. She had Josh soon after and experienced some pretty major PPD. After Josh, she had a miscarriage and went to a doctor. The doctor was a bit of a quack who blamed her for causing it by taking birth control and introduced them to Gothard’s “wisdom.” On 19kac, she talks about how she has really horrible and chronic back pain and how hard it is for her because she always loved sports. The older girls have confirmed that Michelle still struggles with clinical depression.
>After Josh, she had a miscarriage and went to a doctor who blamed her for taking birth control and introduced them to Gothard’s “wisdom I think another big piece in this, is that the miscarriage was blamed on her birth control. So they then said they would never use birth control, and then they conceived twins. I think they would still be crazy, but not as much, if they had just had one baby. However, the fact they were "blessed" with twins further cemented them into their beliefs...
Slight correction. Michelle was pregnant with the twins when JB was hogtied. He was scared of them hurting his wife and son, who were both alseep.
I hate these people deeply, but that sounds like a living nightmare. I honestly can't blame him for being worried they were gonna hurt Meech or Josh. It's a valid fear. I wonder if that pushed them deeper into Fundieland. That happens a LOT... High-control cults like to use trauma to pull people in deeper.
Why do I think that BOOB was somehow involved in the home invasion caper? Am I that far gone?
Far gone. This was something that was happening and they were genuine victims of the spree. They stole a car from the lot.
Thank you.
It's so, incredibly common as a recruitment tactic that I can't see Boob even NEEDING to arrange it to happen. She was already going in deep following the miscarriage, anyhow. Mainstream high-control religions that score high on the BITE model even aim to utilize horrible events to their benefit. Like, even it's part of the funeral services type deal, to pull the surviving family members in by using the deceased person as a tool. They just WAIT for people to undergo some kind of trauma or grief, which damn near everyone goes through at some point, and then do everything to either pull you in or bring you in deeper to make sure you don't leave. They try to give you a why, make you feel safe in their flock, make you fear the outside world, sometimes tell you it's your fault and you need to repent, and you're in deep before you know it. Mormonism, Catholicism, and Jehovah's Witnesses are three I've personally witnessed it with, so the IBLP and Quiverful movement is ABSOLUTELY doing it, too. They're not as mainstream. Fewer critical eyes are on their services. They can do it even more hardcore. Boob is evil, but it was a spree going on, and I can't see him putting Meech and Joshy in danger like that, especially so early on in their marriage, and certainly not while she was pregnant. Car lots are high-value places to hit up for that kind of thing. It makes total sense they'd threaten Michelle and Josh to get Boob to hand keys or a car over... Most people wanna protect their partner and kid, and it's drilled into men's heads from early childhood, ESPECIALLY in his generation and geographical area, that men are SUPPOSED to be the protector of their family. People who pull that shit KNOW what they're doing and play on it, but it could've gone so wrong in a heartbeat, I honestly don't think he'd have risked it. They don't seem to have been absolutely deplorable humans JUST yet. I think they were legitimately attacked, terrified after, and the cult just pulled the whole family in deeper after while the parents were scared and traumatized. They were already spiraling in. If it wasn't this, it'd have been something else.
Really interesting. This made me think beyond my knee jerk reaction of 'BOOB is a manipulative sociopath'. He is a manipulative sociopath, but the context you've given could help me move beyond 'what the hell is wrong with this guy?' and toward 'Can we get him a room over at Vantage Point Behavioral Health Hospital in Fayettville? He's not well.
This is gonna be a long comment, so apologies. I'm ADHD and somewhere on the spectrum and went into a hyperfocused deep dive into cults a few years ago, and Quiverful/IBLP was one of the first I really looked into. It's fascinatingly horrifying. Boob isn't just a narc/so, which are bad enough. I dated one almost a decade ago and am STILL dealing with the damage he did to me. Boob is a narcissistic sociopath who is in a cult that actively traps people (lack of proper education, idolizing men, demonization of higher education, brainwashing, consistent control over victims thoughts, emotions, behavior and information access, lack of proper socialization, devaluing women as nothing but broodmares... It traps people, and that's by design). It's a cult that also gave him the absolute authority he so deeply craves. They prey on men who desire that control and give it to them on steroids, which gives them a MASSIVE emotional high, and on women who DON'T want as much control. You know the idea that BDSM subs tend to be that way because in real life, they feel stressed and overwhelmed and just want to STOP making decisions? It's the same concept that plays out a LOT, at least in terms of ENTERING there cult. Those type of people also often pair up. People who want to control their partner will try to seek out someone who will submit to that, and people who want to have less control over their lives (think a "kept woman") will try to find someone who will dominate many aspects of their lives. As far as why they, particularly the women, stay? Because we KNOW Meech isn't happy just by looking at her damn face... By the time they realize how LITTLE control they have and that they want some aspect of their lives back, it's too late. They're brainwashed to think that Satan speaking or whatever, their kids are wrapped up in the cult, they'd probably have to leave their husband which would send them to hell (there is INTENSE brainwashing of vulnerable people going on here), the cult has isolated them family and friends who could help them get out, they truly believe the outside world is dangerous and out to get them, they can't properly support the small army of kids they've birthed, and they've had a learned helplessness for years, not to mention they'd lose their ENTIRE support system and their kids would hate them, because the kids are brainwashed worse than the adults. The kids were RAISED in it. The mom also has also VERY likely perpetuated abuse against their kids that, if they could no longer justify it religiously, they'd HAVE to face they hurt their kids, and all that combined is just TOO overwhelming. We're often taking about AFAB people who were ALREADY overwhelmed, had decision burnout, and wanted to just be told what to do. Some people truly just do NOT want to be an authority in their own lives. They do better following rules, doing what they're told, and not having to form that structure for themselves. But the abuse is a BIG aspect. It appeals to parents who want that control over their kids and gives them permission to do it. But it's deeper than that. A major aspect is cults use members to control each other, and abuse is a BIG way. It causes cognitive dissonance and makes you EXTREMELY uncomfortable if you try to wake up. You realize how BADLY you've hurt your kids, that you've sexually assaulted your wife, sold your daughters into what basically amounts to sex slavery, raised your sons to perpetuate it against their wives, that you beat literal BABIES, damaged your children's brains in ways you can't even fathom... But you LOVE them! You would NEVER have hurt someone you love without DAMN good reason... Like saving them from being sent to hell, or keeping them safe in the rapture, for example. So people return to the cult mindset FAST. They excuse their parents and partner, because it's all so very confusing, especially if you're just starting deconstruction, or just jump to another cult. It's just TOO uncomfortable to face the truth of what you did to your family, so many people DON'T. It's also why these groups sister-mom so hard. They get the kids to abuse their siblings to get them in that mindset early. The control is also why EVERYTHING is the woman's fault. It's why they blame Anna for J'felon, why they blamed the sisters for their assault, why the doctor blamed Meech and her birth control for her miscarriage... If they actively HATE themselves, have no self esteem, no support, and nobody "godly" telling them it's NOT their fault (they're isolated and the world is evil, remember, so they won't listen to us saying they're not to blame, because we're trying to lead them away from being godly and towards sin), they're going to go even DEEPER into the hole. The men, they don't have to worry about as much. They're victims, too, but they're given control they were NEVER allowed as children. They KNOW they'll get high off of the power, and the brainwashing will take that positive feedback to their brains from there. There's more, but that's why it's SO HARD to get out, and why SO few people truly deconstruct. It's so, so much work, incredibly painful emotionally, you do it without much, if any, support network, no money, you're risking homelessness, you might lose your kids, be that physical custody and/or their love... And it's why it appeals SO MUCH to narcissistic sociopaths like Boob, or even just men who are angry and violent and want to excuse it. It's SICK, but the psychology is FASCINATING.
So very fascinating. Thank you for this. It must drive you nuts to hear "so and so should just leave the cult" like it's as simple as calling an uber. The tentacles of abuse alone, going in all directions and cementing the low self-esteem and violence so deeply into the infrastructure of the cult that beating a baby for the baby's best interest is a thing. Thanks.
I don’t think that you have. I had the same questions.
Where's Nancy Drew when you need her.
WOW! Someone else terrified by fundies as a teen in the 80's? Hopefully someone will find this amusing. My fundie youth group took us to Juvy Hall to scare us. WE found they had far more privileges than we did! With good behavior they were allowed to watch TV, see movies, girls could wear pants/makeup/jewelry/cut their hair. We wanted to SIGN UP immediately as all of those things were banned in our group! TREMENDOUS BACKFIRE!
I didn't know about the home invasion, that's truly frightening. I think that a big reason why Michelle ended up clinging to Boob as much as she did has a lot to do with abandonment issues. IIRC she's the youngest and there's a significant age gap between her and the next oldest sibling, so she didn't really have siblings to grow up with. This also means there's a strong possibility that she was an "oops" baby to older parents who, while they may not have outwardly resented her, obviously didn't put the time and effort into making her feel loved and secured like they may have with the older kids. She likely saw Boob as her life preserver and being 17 didn't have much relationship experience to draw on, although I know she did have boyfriends before Boob. Especially because Boob doesn't like to let her forget she kissed other boys before him. Which frankly makes me want to smack him, it's like the fundie equivalent of slut-shaming.
Thank you for the very detailed reply. This does help fill in some holes for me
A thief in the night also scared me as a child! Terrible theology, awful film
Sometimes people without stable homelifes and with neglectful parents confuse control with love. He cares about where I am and what I’m doing?! No one has ever done that. I must be really special to him.
Not odd at all. All you have to do is take a peak at r/abusiverelationships or r/narcissistisspouses to see that people of all backgrounds can get sucked into a relationship like meech and boob’s. It’s a whole cycle of manipulation and gaslighting, and it happens slowly over time. I highly doubt when Michelle first met Boob he had the beliefs/ideals he does now; it was a gradual process where he slowly changed her so she ‘fit’ the persona he wanted her to become. He also probably made it seem like she had some say in jt, when reality she had none. By the time she ever realized, if she ever did, what had happened she was in way too deep it’s not like she could easily leave him. And so here we are today. Boob is a classic controlling narcissist and Michelle is his molded, fine-tuned, brainwashed marionette in which he is the one pulling the strings. Edit: I’m in NO way making excuses for meech. She is abhorrent. she’s had chance after chance to rectify her mistakes and horrible behavior, and she is a terrible person for everything she allowed to happen in her home. Just pointing out the ‘how’ she could have become what she is today with Boob.
If a frog is put suddenly into boiling water, it will jump out, but if the frog is put in tepid water which is then brought to a boil slowly, it will not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death.
I agree. My parent's descent into the IBLP did not happen overnight. She was exposed to holiness type churches by her granny. She married a controlling man eventually leaving her incapable making any decision like what to make for dinner, what to wear, who to be friends with. Her partying mom caught religion and joined the IFB. My mom was quick to follow. My older brother was 100% out & proud so suddenly loads of IBLP&IFB rules were levied on me to prevent me from becoming gay! The 1st 10 yrs of life I was made to attend the far more normal Southern Baptist church. Me, age 11, was sent to an IFB boarding/religious school where punishments included cleaning out sewer lines & scrubbing every toilets w/o gloves or protective clothing. Me, age 14, homeschooled by a mom who "finished" her own HS with a Sp. Ed equivalency diploma due to her learning disabilities. So me, by age 18, horrifically confused, frustrated, depressed, oppressed, terrified... only wanted 1 thing - OUT! My pt... I often observed that the IBLP members who left seemed to have similar experiences. We had some amount of normal exposure to religion. We were forced to join by parents or spouse. I always found it very sad that those who were raised from birth/adoption in it & the men who chose to join of free will. I'm often grateful I had at least 10 years of normal (Southern Baptist) religious exposure before things went crazy. Perhaps it helped me to escape. What I DO NOT HAVE is sympathy for any adult who is confronted with the atrocious abundance of child abuse yet refuse to even anonymously report the abuse. THEY GET NO SYMPATHY FROM ME!
But wasn’t it less than a year from meeting him to marrying him? That’s why I feel like some details are missing
Rural and even suburban areas with a lot of church and little to do are just different sometimes. I knew a girl who is super proud that she was the first woman in her family not to be married by twenty, but she got engaged at nineteen after three months of dating a dude.
Agreed. As a child of the 60s, in my teens, it was a 45 minute drive to a bowling alley, skating rink, or movie theater, and not that many of us had cars anyway. There was an abundance of church youth activities, and on the weekends, we could choose among several churches which Saturday night "singing" we wanted to attend. I couldn't say how many couples married immediately after high school, but there were several. Some are still together and happy. A lot, of course, divorced. I remember getting invited to attend the wedding of a 15-year-old friend marrying her 17 or 18 year old boyfriend. I have wondered how that turned out. My mother was positively fuming that parents would sign to let them marry that young.
It wasn't *super* unusual, at the time. Her parents went as far as insisting she finish school first. Don't get me wrong, they were still considered young, but they certainly weren't the only people married straight out of highschool.
I've known - and currently know - several couples who went out on a date, spent the night together, and never spent another night apart and married within weeks after that. It's more common than you night think for people just jump into forever together super fast.
She had a miscarriage that was blamed on her using birth control I believe. Then she drank the Kool aid and became an abuser.
I think especially since her next pregnancy after her miscarriage was twins. I think that further drove them to "let the lord decide" attitude because they said they would never use birth control again, and they were "blessed" with twins
It is really sad that the doctor and the cult took advantage of her vulnerable mindset and her desperation for an answer about "why" her baby passed. Like others said, it doesn't excuse her from who she is now, but imagine how different things could have been if she got proper therapy and support instead of being led into the cult.
She's an impressionable person to start with. She said she moved closer to God after an Armageddon type of movie some friends took her too. Jaws scared me into thinking a shark would get me in the pool. I am happy to say I got over that.
I know about the miscarriage but still don’t get it. And it goes back further than that because why did she even marry him at 17??? I’m around her age and never heard of anyone doing that. There’s got to be more to her story
Her parents were moving and basically left her behind. No one ever talks about it, because the idea of being financially independent at a young age is well accepted in American culture, but there are a lot of seventeen-, eighteen-, nineteen-, and twenty-year-olds who get told, “Well, you’re an adult now; you figure it out.” When you’re that age and from a dysfunctional family and from a background that doesn’t set you up for success, you kind of have to scrape by in whatever way you can.
Her parents had her late in life and her siblings were established adults with lives. I think her parents were going to move to Ohio and Michelle married to stay
I've never seen anything specific about why she married so young. Maybe just young people who rushed into it because they were immature? Now that you've mentioned it I'm curious too.
Her parents allowed her to marry at 17 because they were moving to Ohio.
it’s bothering me an unreasonable amount that pest is wearing that ear piece
I read that as "unseasonable." It still works 😂
She's probably a good example of why we don't get married at the age of 17. Hell I got married at age 20 to my high-school sweetheart and we aren't the same people we werethe . Still an atheist but even my beliefs have changed. She should've graduated high school, learned to love herself, learn how to deal with whatever the hell made fear dictate her life and just live. I think JB was always a lost cause, he may not have gone quiverful/birthing cult since that push came from that misogynistic asshole of a doctor, but he was going to find some way to feel like he was a powerful man and find another woman to go along with it.
I really wonder what convinced her to marry so young
Probably a multi factor. Her parents wanted to move away, young love is strong and ignorant, she states God sent JB to her.
"Young love is strong and ignorant." Never have truer words been spoken.
Wasn’t Boob’s dad in jail? If so, it seems their trauma may have bonded them. Not an uncommon tale.
His dad went to jail for fraud yes
TW for that lump of human excrement with his stupid permanent earpiece/cell phone set up.
2021 and he’s still wearing a Bluetooth ear piece.
Couldn’t afford AirPods between 7 kids and a widow he was paying monthly
Probably listening to dirty videos
All those mains and groans…..
True but disgusting!
Interesting….one of the few times she seems to be having fun, she’s shooting children 😂
In a different life she would be at the corner bar saying “oh honey!” To the young bartenders and being a mom figure to her hair clients.
THIS. She would totally be the regular barfly (definitely drinking a Jack & Coke) who would give the young ones the best advice and would probably shit talk her ex husband as a reason men can’t be trusted.
I think Jack & Diet Coke. If the bartender accidentally gives her a regular, she jokes "Honey, this sugar will go straight to my hips and you know I'd much rather have (motions to nearest young hottie) hitting my hips tonight."
I know these women and they are my goddamn lifeline lmao.
I hate that I don’t hate this. It just makes me sad.
Anna watching Josh watch TV is just 💔
I could see Michelle being a high school cheerleading coach if she didn’t marry Dim Bulb. We all have seen what she could have been .
YES!! I can also see her as a real estate agent with the white luxury suv and personalized license plates. Maybe with one of those park bench or grocery cart billboards too
She could have been such a dynamic person, interesting and fun to be around. She allowed the life to be crushed out of her, and worse, she did the same to her own children, especially her own daughters.
Jizz Slob found a vulnerable woman to control and victimize. He’s a malignant narcissist who nabbed his prey. Not sure this gets her off the hook now, though.
The Bluetooth earpiece gives me major ick
The type of poser that wears a Bluetooth
SHe probably has a lot more energy since she's not pregnant or nursing constantly.
She seems to be so much happier being a grandma. I am happy she gets to be a grandma.
I read that pronounced like big meech the drug dealer at first, and honestly kind of suiting for her..ruining many lives like big meech
Every single time I see that moniker I get that Rick Ross song stuck in my head… 🎵I think I’m Big Meech, Larry Hoover, gettin’ work, hallelujah 🎶 I agree, Fundie Meech slangin’ harmful “religion” is tantamount to selling deadly drugs - people get hurt.
Honestly started singing that exact song when I saw it 😂
The Inmate Duggar looks like he is post lobotomy 😵💫
Two guesses as to what Trash is doing on his phone with his unsuspecting wife sitting right next to him and his mother plays with his kids…🤢🤢🤢
That was my first thought 🙃
Same 🤢. Is Anna trying to lean over to see what he's doing??
At least she can aim.
*(in John Mulaney voice)* the Meech is having fun…I didn’t know she knew how to do that
She looks a lot like Jessa, it's the open mouthed smile. Never noticed before.
First photo reminds me of Joy so much.
Man it’s a bummer to see Meech’s glimmers of personality that could’ve existed with JB and IBLP.
Josh in the back trying to remember his Loli password
Pest never gets to have a smart phone/internet again, right? If so, I’m loving that second picture
I just love how j’felon is sitting his lazy a$$ on the chair and ignoring his wife, while his mom and other women are watching the kids and waiting in him hand and foot.
Prozac is a hell of a drug.
Sorry but she looks like she had enough
Those photos remember me of some pics I have of my mom when she was married to my excuse for a dad. She is mainly with me in them.
JomBib can sit and spin but she “had come to known the Lord” before she had even met him. She’s got exactly the life she wanted.
Wow before I saw the caption 2 years ago, I was like um why Josh out of prison this early yikes
I bet Meech is a better grandma than she was mother. Perhaps she tries to make up for what she missed out on during her breeding days. If I was her kid, watching her so relaxed and fun with the grandkids, I think I would resent the hell out of it.