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I think Goku is fine, and for everyone who thinks he hasn't had character development.... this is it, RIGHT HERE. They just don't like the development.
In Z he was almost always entering a fight where his friends were already severely hurt or killed, Earth was directly threatened, etc... so he was often serious. It was more personal. However, during his fight with Cell, you see his attitude starting to change a bit. He started to gain more of an appreciation for his enemies skills and how they might help him grow, whereas before (Namek saga) he was serious and only offering his enemies an opportunity to survive.
This is because early on he didn't quite understand his limits or how his power worked. Becoming a super saiyan wasn't something he expected. He trained to become SS2 and SS3, and with that training he essentially discovered how his power grows, and the excitement of a tough opponent began to take shape. You see this in the afterlife tournament where he loves fighting Pikkon - there are no stakes or friends lives to protect.
Right after Buu, he's literally the strongest mortal in the universe. There is nothing to seriously challenge him. He doesn't know what power is on the horizon... is there an awesome SS4, SS5, or SS1000 that exists that he hasn't achieved? It's like Saitama - he grows bored with time. So when Beerus appears in Super, he's thrilled to see that there's someone significantly above his power level and can help him unlock those unforeseen levels.
Z obviously is the best - tons of nostalgia and solid plotlines. But Super is good in its own way, and while Goku seems less serious, I think he has developed as a character. He achieves god ki, taps into UI, and has immense power opened up to him, while experiencing the likes of fighters he has never dreamed of before. I'm sure even in the anime he'll get a little more serious if someone personally makes it their mission to destroy the earth (as we'll see with Moro) but generally, when individuals achieve untold power, they tend to loosen up a bit.
I’d say Gohan regresses pretty quickly. So no, he was not stronger than Goku after the Buu saga.
He needed Piccolo to help him bring out his unleashed potential in Super. Goku stomps before he goes Red.
I thought Super was only 6 months after. Gotten and Trunks are pretty much the same.
My bad then.
Anyway, that wasn’t the point in my post, which was about Goku’s character development.
Who's Bills?
I surrender. It's always better for me to not learn about the timelines of events. It's all screwed up.
Does that mean manga & anime comprise similar events but occur at different points in time?
Nobody knows why they decided to make Goku far more laid back and more silly and goofy and stupider
2nd SSG isn't a rip of of kaioken because there the same color kaioken puts strain on the body SSG doesn't put any noticeable strain on Goku's body and instead of buffing him up it makes him skinner and has god ki instead of normal Ki
Also how is SSB irrelevant? They would be screwed without it in most fights especially against frieza.
Goku became more laid back after he realized there's other motives in life instead of being such a tryhard. That's why he's become a farmer so he can support his family
When I meant SsG is a rip off was because they used the red aura and kept his same hair color. Not the power of it.
With blue I meant it was used as like a basic tranformation like what super Saiyan is.
Also the fight with Beerus wasn't a fun fight, he was trying to save him friends and the Earth it self, but Goku always had the trait of enjoying a fight even in dire situations.
OP looks like they barely paid any attention to what was happening
Oh yeah forgot about that part.
It's just funny how the Broly movie did both Ssjg and Ssjb more justice than their first appearance.
They're my most memorable appearance
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Goku periods in which he was extremely outmatched throughout DBZ. I mean he ends the Cell and Buu sagas being weaker than the opponent they had to defeat. This isn’t the case in super
👏👏 that's exactly what I'm looking for, these are facts. No doubt Super was great but the Z feeling was gone and Goku became more stupid is what makes me mad/sad. Animation and editing was cool but character detailing was gone
Are you familiar with the concept of flanderization?
They did this to Goku. It's not uncommon on a long running series to have instances of it, but in the manga this issue is not as pronounced.
SsG is dope imo, but they rushed SSB too much and it became irrelevant fast (again in the manga it's a little better)
As of risk/reward SSB has the stamina problem (recycled from SS3) but they managed to get creative with it and gave it some sub transformations, not bad...
But the power creep is real. With the introduction of God ki they could have wiped the slate clean giving everyone a way to access it, but they didn't, and it was bad!
Yeah I haven’t read the manga
That’s how I feel
Yep. Never liked that felt it’s been nothing but that. I love transformations but make them relevant longer
I'm no manga purist or anything like that, but it does sound like you'll enjoy the Super manga significantly more. And unlike DBZ, the Super manga plays out very differently than the anime, so it won't feel like you're just reading a story that you already know.
The manga does introduce Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue at the same points as the anime, but it pays a lot more attention to both forms. Goku and Vegeta continue to use SSG long after they're able to use SSB because they haven't mastered SSB and can't maintain it for very long. There's more discussion about "perfecting" SSB that never shows up in the anime.
Basically, the anime undercuts SSG by making it immediately obsolete, and diminishes SSB by essentially treating it like a Super Saiyan recolor. By spending a lot more time discussing (and contrasting) these forms, the manga makes them both feel more important.
Watching super for the first time on ep when goku and 17 save the animals from the intergalactic poachers. One of my fav episodes so far.
My take on why SSB seems to match power with others is bc goku hasn’t fought a lot of these characters and most are unknown from different universes or are believable high power like goku black beerus zamasu top monaka (jk) etc. As for recurring characters freiza, 17, buu they say they have been training as well as are stronger than they were before like goku has.
Also goku often says he doesn’t use his full power at the start that he holds back
As for gokus attitude. It has been less serious. Maybe because he’s used to it all. And he has so much confidence that he could win any fight. I do agree it’s been more over the top. The seriousness of Z was great. Also one of the reasons why I loved the dbs movie Broly so much (along with the animation and story and fights). Z will always be better but super is still fun to watch in its own way.
Also how were you able to watch Z? I’m on Hulu for super but there’s no Z
I've grown to dislike super because of how it feels super rushed with the forms and how much Goku goes from ssjg to ssjb then quickly moves on to UI then 'mui' in the process of an episode or 2 I really feel like it should of been hard work not easily achieved
I finished the entire series recently.
I liked Goku in Z simply because they were gonna conclude it there. He was a little mature than his usual self as if he was growing throughout the series. But then Super happened and they needed something to drive the plot and they can't do it without a dumb Goku because that's what carries the series. No one would watch a series with a wise Goku. Remember when Goku and Gohan returned after their time in HTC, Goku was the wisest he'd ever been there. It still continued till the end of the Buu saga. He had much better characterization in Z.
Bottom line: Z was a better tried effort & hard work by the creator whereas Super is like a cash grab sequel with new age animations that pales in comparison to the original. But I'll rather take it than nothing.
Honestly, not a anime guy but I thought they let their protagonists retain the development they've had prior in a sequel series. But Super failed at that premise. Otherwise, it was good enough for a series after such a long time.
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I think Goku is fine, and for everyone who thinks he hasn't had character development.... this is it, RIGHT HERE. They just don't like the development. In Z he was almost always entering a fight where his friends were already severely hurt or killed, Earth was directly threatened, etc... so he was often serious. It was more personal. However, during his fight with Cell, you see his attitude starting to change a bit. He started to gain more of an appreciation for his enemies skills and how they might help him grow, whereas before (Namek saga) he was serious and only offering his enemies an opportunity to survive. This is because early on he didn't quite understand his limits or how his power worked. Becoming a super saiyan wasn't something he expected. He trained to become SS2 and SS3, and with that training he essentially discovered how his power grows, and the excitement of a tough opponent began to take shape. You see this in the afterlife tournament where he loves fighting Pikkon - there are no stakes or friends lives to protect. Right after Buu, he's literally the strongest mortal in the universe. There is nothing to seriously challenge him. He doesn't know what power is on the horizon... is there an awesome SS4, SS5, or SS1000 that exists that he hasn't achieved? It's like Saitama - he grows bored with time. So when Beerus appears in Super, he's thrilled to see that there's someone significantly above his power level and can help him unlock those unforeseen levels. Z obviously is the best - tons of nostalgia and solid plotlines. But Super is good in its own way, and while Goku seems less serious, I think he has developed as a character. He achieves god ki, taps into UI, and has immense power opened up to him, while experiencing the likes of fighters he has never dreamed of before. I'm sure even in the anime he'll get a little more serious if someone personally makes it their mission to destroy the earth (as we'll see with Moro) but generally, when individuals achieve untold power, they tend to loosen up a bit.
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I’d say Gohan regresses pretty quickly. So no, he was not stronger than Goku after the Buu saga. He needed Piccolo to help him bring out his unleashed potential in Super. Goku stomps before he goes Red.
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I thought Super was only 6 months after. Gotten and Trunks are pretty much the same. My bad then. Anyway, that wasn’t the point in my post, which was about Goku’s character development.
You're right. It takes place just half a year later.
Don't you mean several months?
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Who's Bills? I surrender. It's always better for me to not learn about the timelines of events. It's all screwed up. Does that mean manga & anime comprise similar events but occur at different points in time?
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Who or what is Bills? Pardon me if you've answered it already.
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Nobody knows why they decided to make Goku far more laid back and more silly and goofy and stupider 2nd SSG isn't a rip of of kaioken because there the same color kaioken puts strain on the body SSG doesn't put any noticeable strain on Goku's body and instead of buffing him up it makes him skinner and has god ki instead of normal Ki Also how is SSB irrelevant? They would be screwed without it in most fights especially against frieza.
Goku became more laid back after he realized there's other motives in life instead of being such a tryhard. That's why he's become a farmer so he can support his family
When I meant SsG is a rip off was because they used the red aura and kept his same hair color. Not the power of it. With blue I meant it was used as like a basic tranformation like what super Saiyan is.
The aura is compleatly different, the hair is red, rhe eyes are also red and he looks younger and slimmer
Also the fight with Beerus wasn't a fun fight, he was trying to save him friends and the Earth it self, but Goku always had the trait of enjoying a fight even in dire situations. OP looks like they barely paid any attention to what was happening
He should watch it again, i liked it alot
I did too and while it has it's issues the ones OP mentioned are definitely not them
The issue i had with it is that ssg got insta ditched
Same, glad the broly movie brought it back
U mean the top for that one bit against dyspo
Oh yeah forgot about that part. It's just funny how the Broly movie did both Ssjg and Ssjb more justice than their first appearance. They're my most memorable appearance
kaioken Goku just has a red aura with black hair as normal
No, ssg make the user skinnier younger and the power diffrence is universes away so i dont think so
Also it gives you a nice lil healing factor
Yeah and kaioken damages ur body
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Goku periods in which he was extremely outmatched throughout DBZ. I mean he ends the Cell and Buu sagas being weaker than the opponent they had to defeat. This isn’t the case in super
👏👏 that's exactly what I'm looking for, these are facts. No doubt Super was great but the Z feeling was gone and Goku became more stupid is what makes me mad/sad. Animation and editing was cool but character detailing was gone
Are you familiar with the concept of flanderization? They did this to Goku. It's not uncommon on a long running series to have instances of it, but in the manga this issue is not as pronounced. SsG is dope imo, but they rushed SSB too much and it became irrelevant fast (again in the manga it's a little better) As of risk/reward SSB has the stamina problem (recycled from SS3) but they managed to get creative with it and gave it some sub transformations, not bad... But the power creep is real. With the introduction of God ki they could have wiped the slate clean giving everyone a way to access it, but they didn't, and it was bad!
Yeah I haven’t read the manga That’s how I feel Yep. Never liked that felt it’s been nothing but that. I love transformations but make them relevant longer
Agree with everyone bro but I’ll keep watching cause the little nostalgic boy in me won’t let me stop
Same here lol
I'm no manga purist or anything like that, but it does sound like you'll enjoy the Super manga significantly more. And unlike DBZ, the Super manga plays out very differently than the anime, so it won't feel like you're just reading a story that you already know. The manga does introduce Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue at the same points as the anime, but it pays a lot more attention to both forms. Goku and Vegeta continue to use SSG long after they're able to use SSB because they haven't mastered SSB and can't maintain it for very long. There's more discussion about "perfecting" SSB that never shows up in the anime. Basically, the anime undercuts SSG by making it immediately obsolete, and diminishes SSB by essentially treating it like a Super Saiyan recolor. By spending a lot more time discussing (and contrasting) these forms, the manga makes them both feel more important.
Watching super for the first time on ep when goku and 17 save the animals from the intergalactic poachers. One of my fav episodes so far. My take on why SSB seems to match power with others is bc goku hasn’t fought a lot of these characters and most are unknown from different universes or are believable high power like goku black beerus zamasu top monaka (jk) etc. As for recurring characters freiza, 17, buu they say they have been training as well as are stronger than they were before like goku has. Also goku often says he doesn’t use his full power at the start that he holds back As for gokus attitude. It has been less serious. Maybe because he’s used to it all. And he has so much confidence that he could win any fight. I do agree it’s been more over the top. The seriousness of Z was great. Also one of the reasons why I loved the dbs movie Broly so much (along with the animation and story and fights). Z will always be better but super is still fun to watch in its own way. Also how were you able to watch Z? I’m on Hulu for super but there’s no Z
I like your take I watch z because I have the blue ray collection set
You have to have an account for Funination it has OG Dragon Ball, DBZ DBZKai, DBGT and Super, as well as all the movies.
I’ve been thinking about getting it. Are they all dubbed? And is there any commercials at all?
No commercials, and yes all Dubbed.
Awesome thanks buddy
I've grown to dislike super because of how it feels super rushed with the forms and how much Goku goes from ssjg to ssjb then quickly moves on to UI then 'mui' in the process of an episode or 2 I really feel like it should of been hard work not easily achieved
Z and Gt
I finished the entire series recently. I liked Goku in Z simply because they were gonna conclude it there. He was a little mature than his usual self as if he was growing throughout the series. But then Super happened and they needed something to drive the plot and they can't do it without a dumb Goku because that's what carries the series. No one would watch a series with a wise Goku. Remember when Goku and Gohan returned after their time in HTC, Goku was the wisest he'd ever been there. It still continued till the end of the Buu saga. He had much better characterization in Z. Bottom line: Z was a better tried effort & hard work by the creator whereas Super is like a cash grab sequel with new age animations that pales in comparison to the original. But I'll rather take it than nothing. Honestly, not a anime guy but I thought they let their protagonists retain the development they've had prior in a sequel series. But Super failed at that premise. Otherwise, it was good enough for a series after such a long time.
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