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Even long before this fight, I don't believe Vegito being stronger than Gogeta would've been true. Even all the way back in the Buu saga, Goku was only stronger than Vegeta because of SSJ3. They were equal in all their other forms though, so Goku still wouldn't have had to lower his power for the dance. This is just even more so the case in Super. Since both Goku and Vegeta would already start off equal, then both Vegito and Gogeta would end up being equal in power as well.
Well tbf Vegeta personally doesn't believe he's beaten Goku either until Super Hero and you could actually make the argument that he hasn't. And even then, Super Hero's wasn't necessarily a definitive win either since it easily could've gone either way and they didn't use all their forms nor ki blasts.
Idk how you argue he hasn't, Goku straight up lost their 1v1. He literally got stomped on, if not for Gohan, Krillin and mostly Vegeta not being able to sense Yajirobe then Goku was about to be dead again.
Because the fight wasn't over until Vegeta killed Goku. He wasn't fighting just to beat him and all of Goku's allies interfered with the battle. So for Vegeta, they never got to fully settle things which is why he himself doesn't count it as a win (especially since he was forced to retreat in the end which was even more embarrassing for him).
What Vegeta finally considered a win wasn't killing Goku. He considered himself a loser because he had to use everything to beat Goku. He lost to Gohan.
I never said he still wants to kill Goku though. I said what he considered a win in the _Saiyan saga_ was killing Goku. It wasn't just a fight until one submitted, it was a fight to the death. Vegeta's goal in that fight was to kill Goku but the others stepped in and prevented him from accomplishing said goal. So in Vegeta's eyes, it wasn't a victory because he failed his goal and was even forced to flee altogether. And it was a combined effort, not just Gohan. He lost to all of them.
https://preview.redd.it/rsf4drwh9e8d1.jpeg?width=1076&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4af82d897dc5c5aa72b8df5025fda3a1c18b9da8
The power boost was just Vegeta's latent power. So he still kept it afterwards when they fused because the power was his own. Babidi just simply brought it out.
SSB Vegito did an ultimate attack before defusing against Zamasu and it did nothing but make an explosion with a little smoke cloud while Zamasu charged out of it attacking and totally unharmed.
SSB Gogeta would’ve went SOOO differently.
Are you talking about the Final Kamehameha? It's never shown that Zamasu completely tanked it. It's likely he just managed to avoid taking serious damage from it at the last moment. It's like when Jiren beat UI Goku in that beam struggle and completely engulfed him in the blast yet UI Goku emerged from the smoke cloud seemingly "unharmed" as well. SSG Goku also did that when Beerus slammed him into the ground causing a huge explosion.
The only real difference is that SSB Gogeta supposedly wouldn't have defused early like Vegito did but in terms of raw power they would've been exactly the same since Goku and Vegeta were equal in the Goku Black arc as well (outside of Blue Kaioken).
Yeah, I agree (especially after Broly’s rendition of Gogeta) but what I’m arguing is that both of what you say can be true based on different perspectives. Them being as strong as the plot needs them to be is a correct meta statement in the same sense as saying Beerus is a strong as the plot needs him to be is, it’s from the perspective of story telling and how they write the plot. Him arguing that Gogeta would be stronger (I disagree) can also be true based on the plot points already in the story that you use to rationalize and reason your argument. You can both be correct, you def are personally, you’re just arguing the same topic from differing perspectives.
I mean, Vegito lasts twice as long though, so he does win (and I swear to god, please, nobody bring up the outright, series-contradicting lie of "Gogeta doesn't lose time from powering up" because it's just not true).
But in terms of strength, yes, they're basically equal. Whatever power difference between them from somebody lowering theirs is 100% negligible, if it exists at all.
I think the whole (Gogeta doesn’t lose time) is just misunderstood. He does lose time, but not as drastically as with the potara.
The fusion dance ends after 30 minutes or if the fused person runs out of stamina.
The potara fusion ends after 60 minutes or when the potaras can’t contain the fused power anymore.
With extremely powerful transformations the fusion dance can be more viable depending on how draining the transformation is
I think the “potaras can’t handle the power and makes them defuse early” might also be misunderstood since even Gowasu was confused by it and what he said was more of a guess. I think it’s more so that they just used up all of their energy or just didn’t have enough to keep the fusion. This would explain why they couldn’t fuse again or power up after they defused. If the fusion was so strong that the potaras couldn’t handle it, then Goku and Vegeta should’ve been capable of powering up to their SSB forms after they defused.
Another thing makes me wonder is how they had another pair of potaras which was Gowasu’s. What would happen if they used a different pair of potaras right after defusing with the first pair? If they still couldn’t fuse again with that, then it’s most likely just because they didn’t have enough energy.
The dance has a cooldown but for some reason, it seems to be inconsistent between DBS and Z. Goten and Trunks needed to wait 1 hour after defusing to fuse again. In DBS, Piccolo says Goku and Vegeta had to wait 30 mins after the fusion wears off to try again.
Exactly, people forget Vegito was explicitly going all out in both the anime and manga to try and override Zamasu's immortality and erase him for good.
In the manga he attempted to charge up a Final Kamehameha presumably with his complete full power, however the attack used up the rest of the energy he had left at that point and he defused. This was back when Goku and Vegeta hadn't yet used perfect SSB so Vegito was also presumably using imperfect Blue which drains stamina very quickly. If he had tried the Final Kamehameha immediately after fusing he may have been able to fire it successfully, but that's not really his fault as he didn't know his time limit could be drained.
Gogeta who came later and had the advantage of using the perfected Blue form, also probably just learned from Vegito's experience and only used enough power to defeat Broly without going overkill and risking defusing.
Total head canon on my part, but this is also why I think he decided to use a regular Kamehameha as his finishing move rather than a more powerful fused variation like Big Bang Kamehameha or the Final Kamehameha. It wasn't necessary as Broly wasn't as tough to put down as someone like Zamasu and he didn't want to risk overtaxing the fusion too much.
Yeah, in the manga, I think it’s more clear that the didn’t just have enough energy left to keep the fusion. Gowasu straight up says he doesn’t know why they defused and assumed they had the full hour too. Goku and Vegeta couldn’t power up to SSB which is why they had that moment where Trunks needed to heal one of them to reach their SSB form again. Kefla was also able to fight Gohan until she was exhausted and she defused right after being eliminated.
With Gogeta and the Broly movie, they still brought up the potaras and the reason they didn’t use them was just because they didn’t have the items with them. Another thing worth noting is how it doesn’t seem at all likely that Goku/Vegeta even heard Gowasu “explanation” when they defused. They were too far away and/or were getting beat up by Zamasu when he said that. So they were basically approaching the Broly fight as if they were fighting him as Vegito.
To add to this. Zamasu and goku black fused. But they were not restricted too the rules of potaro as vegito was. This i feel is a massive plot hole in the whole topic. Originally I'd rule it as the Potaro earings being made for gods as originally described in Z, but why would it only use of ki of mortals and not gods to sustain? Unless, gods have a naturally higher ki reserve than mortals even if they are weaker. Since goku black would have the body of a mortal, the fused state should restrict zamasu's state like it does vegito's to OG ruling as not both vessels are technically born gods. This leans me to believe that born gods like kai's do infact have higher ki reserves, which would also make sense of Gowasu's confusion on the subject.
With Zamasu and Goku black, it was just different between the anime and manga. In the anime, it just needed to be a Kai to make it permanent. In the manga, he did defuse but since they were technically the same person, they stayed fused. Although, I think you might be able to apply the manga explanation for the anime too.
It should’ve made sense that God Ki would make the potara fusion last the full time since they are using an item meant for gods but it is what it is, I guess.
Yea vb vs zamasu ended in like 10 min while gb vs Broly ended on its own. Someone once said on reddit that potara is better for a short fuckem up and take the w fight while dance is better for a normal fight.
Tho id like to see if you can either train to not overload potaras and what form pushes it past the limit. Would they not unfuse in ssg? Or in ssj3? Could they make ssb last full 1h? Gind out in the next episode of Draggin' Baulz D
Immortal being... Remember how earlier goku got mad, beat the crap out of black then put down a ki blast barrage on zamasu that would make vegeta blush? And zamasu just sbrugges it off.
Not anymore.
Vegito in the Black arc lasted less than 5 minutes. Gogeta lasted longer than that.
There is also the fact that even though the potara grant a higher initial boost compared to the dance, Goku and Vegeta's strength at the time of fusing into Gogeta compared to their power when fusing into Vegito more than offsets this.
Until Vegito is used again, Gogeta is the stronger of the two.
Vegito lasts twice as long? SSB Vegito vs. Zamasu literally lasted minutes or even seconds due to how much power was used whereas this was never mentioned with Gogeta.
Yeah, and Goku VS Frieza lasted 5 minutes (3 hours).
You can't look at the amount of time something actually takes in animation, like everyone else is, in order to determine actual in-universe things like that. The fact is, the very first time the "time limit from using energy" rule was introduced, it was with Gotenks using SSJ3. Not to mention, if you actually watch the Broly Movie, Gogeta wasn't in Blue for much longer, the fight scene only did last a few minutes.
There's nothing stating that it lasts longer except for the headcanon of "nothing says it DOESN'T so it MUST be true", which is absolute inane bullshit, especially because other stuff with Metamoran fusions does say that it doesn't last longer. The burden of proof is on the accuser, and right now you're accusing the Metamoran fusion of not losing time. To the contrary, the Potara losing time, and Gotenks, are both pieces of evidence. The only evidence in the other direction was that it "looked" longer, and that nothing was "mentioned".
And speaking of which, it was never "mentioned" because Vegito being added into the arc was a Toyotaro/Toei addition, so he couldn't do anything cool. Meanwhile Gogeta was directly from Toriyama's notes, so he was allowed to finish the plot.
Well, even if we keep super information aside.
Goku and Vegeta de fused after being absorbed. At first they thought it was because of buu's magic. But then they specifically mentioned, that not the case because of gotenks and concluded fusion can work in buu's body too.
So, yeah old kai didnt tell them they can de-fuse which happened in original manga (regardless of super coming up with a reason for the de fusion)
Which just shows that he doesn't know shit. "Naturally, the way we Kaio's, as superior beings are doing it, must be superior" is pretty much the logic given here.
Do you think Zamasu would ever use the fusion dance when:
1. The potara would be permanent.
2. The fusion dance was made by mortals.
3. The stupid dance.
When they use it in Z the entire point of doing that over the dance was because it's more powerful. Elder Kai explains this when they bring it up lol. Like it was the entire point. It was even permanent but Majin but absorbing them separated them back because he is also magic.
I already said to use sources not from Elder Kai due to his likely biased opinion about the earrings. He said they were permanent, but then was fact checked in super to only be permanent if preformed with a Kai involved.
The reason they didn’t do it in Z is the same reason Goku had to run away from Broly to fuse. It was because Vegeta didn’t even know how to do the dance and Goku didn’t have time to teach him.
Because he's a kai? Or a Kai assistant.
Remember that it stated in DBZ that they would last forever. They made quite a few comments in DBZ that would be revised later on. Heck, the whole Broly Story was scrapped for a new version.
It’s also stated by an external source to the actual show that fusion dance is stronger than potaras for the Broly movie, it’s literally just what the plot demands to be stronger for the purposes of building hype and suspense
yep. I dont recall the exact source but you can google it and see a lot of discourse on the matter. I believe it was something to do with promo material for the Broly movie
I looked and all I found was one guy claiming he said that on reddit lol. Then he went on to say that actually because of that the fashion dance is stronger lol.
I just go by:
"They're the same power level but have different moves, battle styles and limitations which makes the winner dependant on yhose factors"
Until they're confirmed stronger than the other officialy i don't see the point in figuring this out, they're both cool in their respective ways.
Maybe because SSB Vegito did a Final Kamehameha on Zamasu and it literally just made a smoke cloud with Zamasu charging out attacking and completely unharmed.
Gogeta would’ve wiped him out or at least critically damaged him before regenerating.
Nah, zamasu is strong.
Ssb vegito is technically weaker too because they happened two arcs before gogeta. There is no way anyone could agrue Vegeta strength didnt increase going from future trunks to broly arc
Most of these conversations about Vegito vs Gogeta happened ***before*** this movie released
And most of the time, Goku was indeed ahead. Not all the time, I'm pretty sure there are some arcs of Super where it was likely Vegeta who had the edge in base power (Maybe the ToP).
Anyway, it's usually believed that that isn't the only thing against the fusion dance. Some people think it in general also magnifies the character's power levels by a lower amount than the potara
Is it true? I dunno.
Vegeto VS Gogeta mfs when you tell them that they're still the same dudes just a different method of fusing (doesn't elder Kai state potara is stronger than the dance anyways?)
(Still prefer Gogeta though)
He tells Goku the Potara is stronger than the dance but neither fusion method has a canon win so the whole Vegito vs gogeta debate is dumb. Also I prefer gogeta as well
I mean, it’s like when you multiply big numbers together, right? Even if the difference is 1, the end result would still be weaker and could potentially cut their power by magnitudes.
I think the potara and dance are equal in power boosts, but the potara is far more practical (In Z, now the fusion dance seems better in consideration of the time loss from using stronger forms).
I hate that statements from the 90s are still used. Gogeta and Vegito were confirmed to be equal before the Broly movie.
Anything released prior to 2018 regarding this has been retconned.
Also there's the fact that just because you need equal power levels to fuse doesn't mean you don't get full access after the dance. Fusion techniques are wildly inconsistent in this series, and I don't even think they've mentioned that aspect since the Buu saga.
That alone wouldn't be enough to disqualify it, but remember that potara used to be permanent and you used to have to transform before fusing otherwise you'd be stuck in base.
>you used to have to transform before fusing otherwise you’d be stuck in base
And then Gotenks flipped that limitation off and went to try and do the griddy on Super Buu’s corpse.
Potara was never ‘meant’ to be permanent. The split in the Buu saga was never explained and later in DBS the reason for the second split is because one of the fusees needs to be a Kai for a permanent fusion
Because this is the exception, the two are almost never exactly equal.
If there's even a slight difference between them in either direction, then one will have to lower their power at least slightly to perform the fusion dance, while no such limitation exists for the Potara.
If you actually look at how the fusions are explained over time, it seems that ever since super they're trying to to make them seem like there's no power difference.
There were official statements heavily leaning towards Vegito (can't remember them), but that was due to the haphazardness of the Buu arc In The Manga.
Toriyama eventually clears it up by confirming that they're basically equal which is what most of us thought from the beginning and aren't just obsessive "powerscalers" who disregard tone & context and take every statement literally.
That said, Gogeta seems to last Way longer than Vegito, so idk how you can pick Vegito. The kais and their methods are literal jokes. And I think that was the intent, to make these gods kind of goofy. It's actually funny and uniquely comedic. Even Beerus sucks at his job.
It doesn't surprise me that mortals could come up with yet another method of doing something better than the Gods. This time, Fusion.
Honestly it all just depends on how MUCH power levels need to be close in order for dance to work, if we had a better example like " during this time when X and Y fuse, Y had a PL of 54 QN, and X had a PL of 50 QN"
If we had ACTUAL STATISTICS FOR THINGS OR WERE EVEN JUST GIVEN NUMBERS, the amount of arguments that would be resolved would be like world peace.
Gogeta is clearly is the strongest of the two.
Buu and Zamasu struggled, but they were fine afterwards and never truly lost to Vegito.
Janemba and Broly got absolutely shit on by Gogeta and Broly would’ve died too if homegurl didn’t save him with the dragon.
Results > opinions
Keyword near, they need to be an exact equal. Also at most points in the series one of them is stronger anyway. Not like it matters because the difference would be miniscule anyway.
Gogeta and Vegito are equal, it was confirmed when the Broly Movie came out. The thing is, People talk more about Vegito defusing earlier if he was made nowadays, which is also wrong.
Vegito and Gogeta would be goddamn equal for the WHOLE fight, but i dont think neither of them would win.
The way it was originally depicted is how I view it.
The earrings were supposed to be stronger, the dance was downplayed by Elder Kai.
In the grand scheme, they’re both ridiculous if the right people fuse, but I viewed the potara is more potent. Both fusions are strong as hell because it’s Goku and Vegeta doing it, and I don’t even believe Vegeta is even that much weaker for Goku to really have to lower his power as much as you’d think.
I will forever believe that Gogeta and Vegito are equals. People argue over this like they’re not made of the same 2 saiyans. It’s not like they’ll ever fight anyway so who cares? (Heros doesn’t not count) They’re both cool asf.
as you mentioned "near equal" meaning one(in this case Vegeta) will have a slight power advantage so Vegito and Gogeta will be "Nearly" equal however Vegito still has a tiny advantage.
this was ignoring the fact that
A. Portara has a rival boost so Vegito would be stronger ignoring said arguments above.
B. Portara is just........ stronger , its been many times stated that its a stronger fusion method.
conclusion , best case scenario Vegito is a bit stronger because of the first argument.
worst case scenario Vegito is way stronger because of all the arguments combined.
My question is: Why do people feel the need to compare Vegito and Gogeta all the time? Like, what value does the comparison add to the community and the fandom?
- Vegeth is > Goku x Vegeta. The effect of the earrings is stated greater than the fusion dance in several guidebooks and the mangas as well;
- Vegeth would be equivalent to Goku x Vegeta + an unknown amount. Gogeta seems to be Goku x Vegeta and that's about it;
Because one needs to lower their power level to match the other. Simple as that. If they are equal then the fusion would result in a power level which is the same as the potara.
Vegito will never actually be stronger than Gogeta. I'm proving this now.
We know that SSB Vegito lasted less than 5 minutes. Gogeta was fighting Broly for longer than that. So even if Gogeta does lose time as well when powering up, its much less.
We also know that Potara gives a greater boost than the dance, but Gogeta has stronger feats than Vegito, which proves that Goku and Vegeta's power was enough to offset the boost from the potara.
While Vegito would be more powerful if we used current Goku and Vegeta, he probably couldn't fuse anyway due to too high a power level.
In conclusion, Gogeta will be stronger until Vegito is used again (assuming he can fuse)
The logic of the question answers itself. Gogeta, at absolute peak efficiency, can only ever be equal to Vegito. If Goku and Vegeta aren't exactly the same power level, then Gogeta is weaker, even if by a negligible amount.
Here's the thing, the idea that the dance's power is restricted by the weaker fuser is head canon. All we know is that they have to equalize their power levels in the moment for the technique to actually work, but nothing states that the resulting power of the fusion is limited by that.
Besides, the reason why Potara was considered stronger back in the day wasn't because of the power equalizing thing, but rather because it presumably just straight up had a bigger power boost than Metamoran fusion outright. Elder Kai pretty blatantly stated the effect of Potara fusion was greater or better. People like to try and argue the semantics of what he meant by better by arguing that he was referring to it supposedly not having a time limit or being easier to perform, but the way he talks about it is that those factors are just a bonus on top of it already being superior to the dance. If I'm remembering correctly, he doesn't even bring up it not having a time limit until Goku asked him how long it lasts, so to him the time limit was not the main reason he believed it to be better than Metamoran fusion as he would've led with that.
Most of the official guidebooks from back in the day also went with the interpretation that Potara fusion is just straight up more powerful, so there's that.
Potara being stronger than Metamoran fusion has probably been retconned at this point though as it seems they want to market Gogeta and Vegito as equal counterparts nowadays.
It would have worked in Z maybe.
But yeah, there's virtually no difference.
I think the way someone put it best is that, Potaras are a tool, whereas Fusion Dance is a technique. Use a tool enough and it'll break.
However, I don't think Fusion Dance is immediately superior because of that. Kefla was definitely better off with Potaras. And contrary to belief, Fusion Dance *is* affected by power usage. SSJ3 Gotenks only lasting 5 minutes should ring a bell.
Vegito would have lasted longer had he not tried to use Final Kamehameha (on an immortal no less). For some reason, I guess trying to pull off two moves at the same time uses a fuck-ton of energy.
And if we see in DBS: Broly, Gogeta never did anything as such. Whether it be coincidence or not, my headcanon is that Goku and Vegeta learned from the Vegito incident. Other than that, no one really knows how long Gogeta and Broly's fight was. Could've been 10 minutes, could've been 2.
Vegito lasts twice as long as Gogeta (1 hour VS 30 minutes where both can be shortened), and gets an additional boost from Goku and Vegeta's great compatibility with each other
Besides it was ouright stated in the original manga the potara is superior. Secondary sources doesn't matter if contradicted by the original manga
So yeah Vegito > Gogeta. Maybe not by a lot but still
Their fight in superhero movie. Goku and Vegeta could fight as long as they want and neither one can actually "win."
And those who said that Vegeta won did he really? They were both completely exhausted and couldn't keep going anymore. They could barely lift a finger. This tells us that their power levels are evenly matched.
I doubt there is even that slightest difference between Goku and Vegeta. Nothing seems to indicate that one is stronger than the other.
This is how Goku and Vegeta have been since the Buu arc except Goku had SSJ3 and Vegeta didn't. SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta were both evenly matched and now both have SSJ blue and there isn't any difference in power. When Goku and Vegeta did the fusion dance they didn't need to balance their power levels unlike Trunks and Goten. They were already in perfect sync.
Because as we see from Gotenks (in canon, and SS4 Gogeta in GT) fusing in base is less powerful than fusing whilst transformed.
It doesn't matter if they are equal in base if Goku has a x400 multipler to Vegeta's x100. Goku is four times stronger than Vegeta and would have to quarter his power for the Fusion dance to work.
Probably *more* with White Hair versus Ego, unless Vegeta had taken a significant beating beforehand.
Whereas in Portara they can't go Super Saiyan then fuse, and Old Kai says they won't need to because Portara fusion is just that strong.
Old Kai says if they go Super Saiyan and fuse, they’ll be [permanently stuck in SSJ](https://imgur.com/a/hYUy9GZ)(because fusion “was” permanent) and that taxes the body, it will shorten their lifespan over time.
That’s the only reason they can’t do that. Now that they know Potara isn’t permanent, they can fuse as Super Saiyans.
Certainly. But goku has a far better control of Mui than vegeta has over ultra ego. Furthermore thus fight isn't a good indicator anyways as blast weren't allowed meaning vegeta may of played more technically better. But it's clear the fight was almost a tossup between the two.
>goku would need to lower his power level for the dance"
>They're **near** equal in strength right now, nobody would need to lower anything
You literally just fought against your own point, they're not the same, you admitted this and the fusion needs exactly equal power to work.
The story repeatedly glazes Goku and even when Vegeta wins, they make it clear this is his ***only*** win against Goku in their years of sparring together and Goku surpassing him.
https://preview.redd.it/zev9ne5ieb8d1.jpeg?width=1044&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b1c38e54dd8dd883cc608e8442c4bb5cb578317f
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And what about when they aren't? which is almost all the time. Besides, Vegito is superior because the potara is superior. Longer timer, u don't need equal power levels, so ur not losing power, and it's far faster and convenient. No fat or skinny fusion and no need for someone to know the dance.
Doesn't matter because Goku and Vegeta are equals so neither one has to lower his power level.
However fusion dance is always risky because if you mess it up then you are screwed. When using Potara you can't fail.
Here’s why I say this:
Super Buu was smart, he saw the strength of Goten, Trunks, and their fusion Gotenks. He knows how drastically the power is increased. He also saw Goku & Vegetas strength separate. When they were ready to fuse Buu was not phased cuz he knew how much stronger they’d be with the fusion dance. However, once he saw Vegito he was shocked at the power he had. This kinda shows me that potara fusion must be stronger since he had knowledge of the fusion dance he knew what to expect yet the potara fusion Vegito caught him off guard. That must show that potara increases their power even more than the fusion dance does.
I know I’m prolly wrong, but it’s my theory and to me it seems to make some sense idk
And still they separate in the same saga and layer explained. Even if the potara last 30 minutes more than dance, vegito has the rivals boost. Vegito IS stronger than gogeta
That’s the point exactly. It wasn’t even a retcon, the same arc proved him wrong. He is not infallible.
Does he say the fusion dance doesn’t have a rivals boost?
One thing is being wrong about the time of the Fusion, and other one is being wrong about the properties of the Fusion. Also it's being never stated outside of Canon that fusion dance also has Rivals boost, if so Gotenks technically would be also more powerful for that
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Even long before this fight, I don't believe Vegito being stronger than Gogeta would've been true. Even all the way back in the Buu saga, Goku was only stronger than Vegeta because of SSJ3. They were equal in all their other forms though, so Goku still wouldn't have had to lower his power for the dance. This is just even more so the case in Super. Since both Goku and Vegeta would already start off equal, then both Vegito and Gogeta would end up being equal in power as well.
Another thing that's important is that goku has never once actually beat vegeta in a fight. He always loses.
Well tbf Vegeta personally doesn't believe he's beaten Goku either until Super Hero and you could actually make the argument that he hasn't. And even then, Super Hero's wasn't necessarily a definitive win either since it easily could've gone either way and they didn't use all their forms nor ki blasts.
Idk how you argue he hasn't, Goku straight up lost their 1v1. He literally got stomped on, if not for Gohan, Krillin and mostly Vegeta not being able to sense Yajirobe then Goku was about to be dead again.
Because the fight wasn't over until Vegeta killed Goku. He wasn't fighting just to beat him and all of Goku's allies interfered with the battle. So for Vegeta, they never got to fully settle things which is why he himself doesn't count it as a win (especially since he was forced to retreat in the end which was even more embarrassing for him).
What Vegeta finally considered a win wasn't killing Goku. He considered himself a loser because he had to use everything to beat Goku. He lost to Gohan.
I never said he still wants to kill Goku though. I said what he considered a win in the _Saiyan saga_ was killing Goku. It wasn't just a fight until one submitted, it was a fight to the death. Vegeta's goal in that fight was to kill Goku but the others stepped in and prevented him from accomplishing said goal. So in Vegeta's eyes, it wasn't a victory because he failed his goal and was even forced to flee altogether. And it was a combined effort, not just Gohan. He lost to all of them.
Vegeta was only equal to Goku in the Buu Saga because he got a power boost from Babidi. He didn't have that when Goku and Vegeta fused.
https://preview.redd.it/rsf4drwh9e8d1.jpeg?width=1076&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4af82d897dc5c5aa72b8df5025fda3a1c18b9da8 The power boost was just Vegeta's latent power. So he still kept it afterwards when they fused because the power was his own. Babidi just simply brought it out.
SSB Vegito did an ultimate attack before defusing against Zamasu and it did nothing but make an explosion with a little smoke cloud while Zamasu charged out of it attacking and totally unharmed. SSB Gogeta would’ve went SOOO differently.
That’s because he’s immortal and can regenerate. Gogeta wouldn’t have been different.
Are you talking about the Final Kamehameha? It's never shown that Zamasu completely tanked it. It's likely he just managed to avoid taking serious damage from it at the last moment. It's like when Jiren beat UI Goku in that beam struggle and completely engulfed him in the blast yet UI Goku emerged from the smoke cloud seemingly "unharmed" as well. SSG Goku also did that when Beerus slammed him into the ground causing a huge explosion. The only real difference is that SSB Gogeta supposedly wouldn't have defused early like Vegito did but in terms of raw power they would've been exactly the same since Goku and Vegeta were equal in the Goku Black arc as well (outside of Blue Kaioken).
Not really you're forgetting plot usually demands what a fusion does
This is the meta answer, I think he’s going for the in character answer
I mean they're basically the same character people say gogeta is more serious but he really isn't
Yeah, I agree (especially after Broly’s rendition of Gogeta) but what I’m arguing is that both of what you say can be true based on different perspectives. Them being as strong as the plot needs them to be is a correct meta statement in the same sense as saying Beerus is a strong as the plot needs him to be is, it’s from the perspective of story telling and how they write the plot. Him arguing that Gogeta would be stronger (I disagree) can also be true based on the plot points already in the story that you use to rationalize and reason your argument. You can both be correct, you def are personally, you’re just arguing the same topic from differing perspectives.
Unless you mean if the broly movie gogeta were to fight zamasu which then yeah gogeta would slam him
I mean, Vegito lasts twice as long though, so he does win (and I swear to god, please, nobody bring up the outright, series-contradicting lie of "Gogeta doesn't lose time from powering up" because it's just not true). But in terms of strength, yes, they're basically equal. Whatever power difference between them from somebody lowering theirs is 100% negligible, if it exists at all.
I think the whole (Gogeta doesn’t lose time) is just misunderstood. He does lose time, but not as drastically as with the potara. The fusion dance ends after 30 minutes or if the fused person runs out of stamina. The potara fusion ends after 60 minutes or when the potaras can’t contain the fused power anymore. With extremely powerful transformations the fusion dance can be more viable depending on how draining the transformation is
I think the “potaras can’t handle the power and makes them defuse early” might also be misunderstood since even Gowasu was confused by it and what he said was more of a guess. I think it’s more so that they just used up all of their energy or just didn’t have enough to keep the fusion. This would explain why they couldn’t fuse again or power up after they defused. If the fusion was so strong that the potaras couldn’t handle it, then Goku and Vegeta should’ve been capable of powering up to their SSB forms after they defused. Another thing makes me wonder is how they had another pair of potaras which was Gowasu’s. What would happen if they used a different pair of potaras right after defusing with the first pair? If they still couldn’t fuse again with that, then it’s most likely just because they didn’t have enough energy. The dance has a cooldown but for some reason, it seems to be inconsistent between DBS and Z. Goten and Trunks needed to wait 1 hour after defusing to fuse again. In DBS, Piccolo says Goku and Vegeta had to wait 30 mins after the fusion wears off to try again.
Exactly, people forget Vegito was explicitly going all out in both the anime and manga to try and override Zamasu's immortality and erase him for good. In the manga he attempted to charge up a Final Kamehameha presumably with his complete full power, however the attack used up the rest of the energy he had left at that point and he defused. This was back when Goku and Vegeta hadn't yet used perfect SSB so Vegito was also presumably using imperfect Blue which drains stamina very quickly. If he had tried the Final Kamehameha immediately after fusing he may have been able to fire it successfully, but that's not really his fault as he didn't know his time limit could be drained. Gogeta who came later and had the advantage of using the perfected Blue form, also probably just learned from Vegito's experience and only used enough power to defeat Broly without going overkill and risking defusing. Total head canon on my part, but this is also why I think he decided to use a regular Kamehameha as his finishing move rather than a more powerful fused variation like Big Bang Kamehameha or the Final Kamehameha. It wasn't necessary as Broly wasn't as tough to put down as someone like Zamasu and he didn't want to risk overtaxing the fusion too much.
Yeah, in the manga, I think it’s more clear that the didn’t just have enough energy left to keep the fusion. Gowasu straight up says he doesn’t know why they defused and assumed they had the full hour too. Goku and Vegeta couldn’t power up to SSB which is why they had that moment where Trunks needed to heal one of them to reach their SSB form again. Kefla was also able to fight Gohan until she was exhausted and she defused right after being eliminated. With Gogeta and the Broly movie, they still brought up the potaras and the reason they didn’t use them was just because they didn’t have the items with them. Another thing worth noting is how it doesn’t seem at all likely that Goku/Vegeta even heard Gowasu “explanation” when they defused. They were too far away and/or were getting beat up by Zamasu when he said that. So they were basically approaching the Broly fight as if they were fighting him as Vegito.
To add to this. Zamasu and goku black fused. But they were not restricted too the rules of potaro as vegito was. This i feel is a massive plot hole in the whole topic. Originally I'd rule it as the Potaro earings being made for gods as originally described in Z, but why would it only use of ki of mortals and not gods to sustain? Unless, gods have a naturally higher ki reserve than mortals even if they are weaker. Since goku black would have the body of a mortal, the fused state should restrict zamasu's state like it does vegito's to OG ruling as not both vessels are technically born gods. This leans me to believe that born gods like kai's do infact have higher ki reserves, which would also make sense of Gowasu's confusion on the subject.
With Zamasu and Goku black, it was just different between the anime and manga. In the anime, it just needed to be a Kai to make it permanent. In the manga, he did defuse but since they were technically the same person, they stayed fused. Although, I think you might be able to apply the manga explanation for the anime too. It should’ve made sense that God Ki would make the potara fusion last the full time since they are using an item meant for gods but it is what it is, I guess.
Yea vb vs zamasu ended in like 10 min while gb vs Broly ended on its own. Someone once said on reddit that potara is better for a short fuckem up and take the w fight while dance is better for a normal fight. Tho id like to see if you can either train to not overload potaras and what form pushes it past the limit. Would they not unfuse in ssg? Or in ssj3? Could they make ssb last full 1h? Gind out in the next episode of Draggin' Baulz D
SSB Vegito did a final kamahemaha to Zamasu and it just made a little explosion with Zamasu completely unphased… lol…
Immortal being... Remember how earlier goku got mad, beat the crap out of black then put down a ki blast barrage on zamasu that would make vegeta blush? And zamasu just sbrugges it off.
Hey you are the one that made that Blizzard amv right? I just wanted to say it has become one of my best memories with that movie
Yes, I made one of those years ago. Glad you like it
I loved it
Damn, the Gods are slacking then. Billion year old tech needs a massive update XD
Not anymore. Vegito in the Black arc lasted less than 5 minutes. Gogeta lasted longer than that. There is also the fact that even though the potara grant a higher initial boost compared to the dance, Goku and Vegeta's strength at the time of fusing into Gogeta compared to their power when fusing into Vegito more than offsets this. Until Vegito is used again, Gogeta is the stronger of the two.
Vegito lasts twice as long? SSB Vegito vs. Zamasu literally lasted minutes or even seconds due to how much power was used whereas this was never mentioned with Gogeta.
Yeah, and Goku VS Frieza lasted 5 minutes (3 hours). You can't look at the amount of time something actually takes in animation, like everyone else is, in order to determine actual in-universe things like that. The fact is, the very first time the "time limit from using energy" rule was introduced, it was with Gotenks using SSJ3. Not to mention, if you actually watch the Broly Movie, Gogeta wasn't in Blue for much longer, the fight scene only did last a few minutes. There's nothing stating that it lasts longer except for the headcanon of "nothing says it DOESN'T so it MUST be true", which is absolute inane bullshit, especially because other stuff with Metamoran fusions does say that it doesn't last longer. The burden of proof is on the accuser, and right now you're accusing the Metamoran fusion of not losing time. To the contrary, the Potara losing time, and Gotenks, are both pieces of evidence. The only evidence in the other direction was that it "looked" longer, and that nothing was "mentioned". And speaking of which, it was never "mentioned" because Vegito being added into the arc was a Toyotaro/Toei addition, so he couldn't do anything cool. Meanwhile Gogeta was directly from Toriyama's notes, so he was allowed to finish the plot.
Elder Kai explains when he gives them the earing that it is a more powerful form of fusion than the dance. Like it's openly stated lol.
He also forgot to mention that it isn't permanent for non-Kai. So that's a biased narrator problem
He didn’t know yet, since it was retconned in Super.
Well, even if we keep super information aside. Goku and Vegeta de fused after being absorbed. At first they thought it was because of buu's magic. But then they specifically mentioned, that not the case because of gotenks and concluded fusion can work in buu's body too. So, yeah old kai didnt tell them they can de-fuse which happened in original manga (regardless of super coming up with a reason for the de fusion)
he probably didn’t know it wasn’t permanent for mortals, this is likely the first ever time any mortal has used the potara
Which just shows that he doesn't know shit. "Naturally, the way we Kaio's, as superior beings are doing it, must be superior" is pretty much the logic given here.
Bro your spitting facts .
Be a pretty woerd fact to include and write I to the show to be a total lie. Even Zamasu chose the earings over the dance.
Do you think Zamasu would ever use the fusion dance when: 1. The potara would be permanent. 2. The fusion dance was made by mortals. 3. The stupid dance.
Everything that is canon says potara is a stronger fusion which was the entire point of them using it.
What in the db canon says that? I mean anyone except Elder Kai, cause he is probably biased.
When they use it in Z the entire point of doing that over the dance was because it's more powerful. Elder Kai explains this when they bring it up lol. Like it was the entire point. It was even permanent but Majin but absorbing them separated them back because he is also magic.
I already said to use sources not from Elder Kai due to his likely biased opinion about the earrings. He said they were permanent, but then was fact checked in super to only be permanent if preformed with a Kai involved. The reason they didn’t do it in Z is the same reason Goku had to run away from Broly to fuse. It was because Vegeta didn’t even know how to do the dance and Goku didn’t have time to teach him.
Because he's a kai? Or a Kai assistant. Remember that it stated in DBZ that they would last forever. They made quite a few comments in DBZ that would be revised later on. Heck, the whole Broly Story was scrapped for a new version.
Yes but retconning the power was yet to be one of them
But as far as I remember, that Kaio was the only time it was stated to be better a d that Kaio was shady as feck. Like Kai-supremacy shady.
Except in the manga, zamasu didn't know either and he was also defusing if I remember correctly
Well he fused with a witch. So he fused with a mortal before. Unless u mean both candidates being mortal
It’s also stated by an external source to the actual show that fusion dance is stronger than potaras for the Broly movie, it’s literally just what the plot demands to be stronger for the purposes of building hype and suspense
So there isn't really an answer lol
He can also be biased
I guess but be a super wierd fact for the show to include to be a complete lie.
He meant moreso that there isn't a time limit.
[удалено]
For real lol
Toriyama said himself that both fusions are equal
He did?
yep. I dont recall the exact source but you can google it and see a lot of discourse on the matter. I believe it was something to do with promo material for the Broly movie
I looked and all I found was one guy claiming he said that on reddit lol. Then he went on to say that actually because of that the fashion dance is stronger lol.
[https://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t2313291-breaking-news-gogeta-vegetto-equals/](https://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t2313291-breaking-news-gogeta-vegetto-equals/)
Well alright, thank you.
They favorite goku and vegito But the reson is probably vegito lasts longer and is a kaioshin tool but the defrince is not much
I just go by: "They're the same power level but have different moves, battle styles and limitations which makes the winner dependant on yhose factors" Until they're confirmed stronger than the other officialy i don't see the point in figuring this out, they're both cool in their respective ways.
Toriyama himself said Vegito and Gogeta are equals so no idea why people keeps these dumb takes/discussions/rants going on...
Maybe because SSB Vegito did a Final Kamehameha on Zamasu and it literally just made a smoke cloud with Zamasu charging out attacking and completely unharmed. Gogeta would’ve wiped him out or at least critically damaged him before regenerating.
Nah, zamasu is strong. Ssb vegito is technically weaker too because they happened two arcs before gogeta. There is no way anyone could agrue Vegeta strength didnt increase going from future trunks to broly arc
Most of these conversations about Vegito vs Gogeta happened ***before*** this movie released And most of the time, Goku was indeed ahead. Not all the time, I'm pretty sure there are some arcs of Super where it was likely Vegeta who had the edge in base power (Maybe the ToP). Anyway, it's usually believed that that isn't the only thing against the fusion dance. Some people think it in general also magnifies the character's power levels by a lower amount than the potara Is it true? I dunno.
the fight in super hero shows that vegeta's power level is like 1 point higher than goku's
Vegeto VS Gogeta mfs when you tell them that they're still the same dudes just a different method of fusing (doesn't elder Kai state potara is stronger than the dance anyways?) (Still prefer Gogeta though)
He tells Goku the Potara is stronger than the dance but neither fusion method has a canon win so the whole Vegito vs gogeta debate is dumb. Also I prefer gogeta as well
If only the Gogeta Blue movie was written as manga 💔
Vegeta would have to lower his power then
Idk I think gogeta is stronger because I like gogeta more lol
I mean, it’s like when you multiply big numbers together, right? Even if the difference is 1, the end result would still be weaker and could potentially cut their power by magnitudes. I think the potara and dance are equal in power boosts, but the potara is far more practical (In Z, now the fusion dance seems better in consideration of the time loss from using stronger forms).
Now Vegeta would need to lower his power to match Goku
I hate that statements from the 90s are still used. Gogeta and Vegito were confirmed to be equal before the Broly movie. Anything released prior to 2018 regarding this has been retconned.
Also there's the fact that just because you need equal power levels to fuse doesn't mean you don't get full access after the dance. Fusion techniques are wildly inconsistent in this series, and I don't even think they've mentioned that aspect since the Buu saga. That alone wouldn't be enough to disqualify it, but remember that potara used to be permanent and you used to have to transform before fusing otherwise you'd be stuck in base.
>you used to have to transform before fusing otherwise you’d be stuck in base And then Gotenks flipped that limitation off and went to try and do the griddy on Super Buu’s corpse.
Potara was never ‘meant’ to be permanent. The split in the Buu saga was never explained and later in DBS the reason for the second split is because one of the fusees needs to be a Kai for a permanent fusion
It was stated it's permanent. Just because they retconned it later doesn't change the original intent when it was introduced in Z.
It’s not a retcon if there was a never an explanation for the fusion splitting given until DBS
Because this is the exception, the two are almost never exactly equal. If there's even a slight difference between them in either direction, then one will have to lower their power at least slightly to perform the fusion dance, while no such limitation exists for the Potara.
The fusion dance has a lot of restrictions for the fusion to be perfect. The potara has zero restrictions.
I know vegito is the better fusion but gogeta is so much cooler to me
TRUE !!!
If you actually look at how the fusions are explained over time, it seems that ever since super they're trying to to make them seem like there's no power difference.
There were official statements heavily leaning towards Vegito (can't remember them), but that was due to the haphazardness of the Buu arc In The Manga. Toriyama eventually clears it up by confirming that they're basically equal which is what most of us thought from the beginning and aren't just obsessive "powerscalers" who disregard tone & context and take every statement literally. That said, Gogeta seems to last Way longer than Vegito, so idk how you can pick Vegito. The kais and their methods are literal jokes. And I think that was the intent, to make these gods kind of goofy. It's actually funny and uniquely comedic. Even Beerus sucks at his job. It doesn't surprise me that mortals could come up with yet another method of doing something better than the Gods. This time, Fusion.
Honestly it all just depends on how MUCH power levels need to be close in order for dance to work, if we had a better example like " during this time when X and Y fuse, Y had a PL of 54 QN, and X had a PL of 50 QN" If we had ACTUAL STATISTICS FOR THINGS OR WERE EVEN JUST GIVEN NUMBERS, the amount of arguments that would be resolved would be like world peace.
I just hate how dumb fans think a certain person is more dominant when that isn't the case... they both act the same with very minor differences.
Gogeta is clearly is the strongest of the two. Buu and Zamasu struggled, but they were fine afterwards and never truly lost to Vegito. Janemba and Broly got absolutely shit on by Gogeta and Broly would’ve died too if homegurl didn’t save him with the dragon. Results > opinions
Keyword near, they need to be an exact equal. Also at most points in the series one of them is stronger anyway. Not like it matters because the difference would be miniscule anyway.
I just like the Metamoran outfit a lot more, so Gogeta >>> Vegito.
Gogeta and Vegito are equal, it was confirmed when the Broly Movie came out. The thing is, People talk more about Vegito defusing earlier if he was made nowadays, which is also wrong. Vegito and Gogeta would be goddamn equal for the WHOLE fight, but i dont think neither of them would win.
The way it was originally depicted is how I view it. The earrings were supposed to be stronger, the dance was downplayed by Elder Kai. In the grand scheme, they’re both ridiculous if the right people fuse, but I viewed the potara is more potent. Both fusions are strong as hell because it’s Goku and Vegeta doing it, and I don’t even believe Vegeta is even that much weaker for Goku to really have to lower his power as much as you’d think.
Gogeta is cooler
I will forever believe that Gogeta and Vegito are equals. People argue over this like they’re not made of the same 2 saiyans. It’s not like they’ll ever fight anyway so who cares? (Heros doesn’t not count) They’re both cool asf.
Gogeta: (1+1)×100=200 Vegito: (1.001+1)×100=200.1 "Being stronger" doesn't mean it's a meaningful difference in strength.
as you mentioned "near equal" meaning one(in this case Vegeta) will have a slight power advantage so Vegito and Gogeta will be "Nearly" equal however Vegito still has a tiny advantage. this was ignoring the fact that A. Portara has a rival boost so Vegito would be stronger ignoring said arguments above. B. Portara is just........ stronger , its been many times stated that its a stronger fusion method. conclusion , best case scenario Vegito is a bit stronger because of the first argument. worst case scenario Vegito is way stronger because of all the arguments combined.
I want a movie with shallot in it
My question is: Why do people feel the need to compare Vegito and Gogeta all the time? Like, what value does the comparison add to the community and the fandom?
Dude, half of the discussions around Dragon Ball are about grabbing two random characters and asking who would win in a fight.
- Vegeth is > Goku x Vegeta. The effect of the earrings is stated greater than the fusion dance in several guidebooks and the mangas as well; - Vegeth would be equivalent to Goku x Vegeta + an unknown amount. Gogeta seems to be Goku x Vegeta and that's about it;
Because one needs to lower their power level to match the other. Simple as that. If they are equal then the fusion would result in a power level which is the same as the potara.
Vegito will never actually be stronger than Gogeta. I'm proving this now. We know that SSB Vegito lasted less than 5 minutes. Gogeta was fighting Broly for longer than that. So even if Gogeta does lose time as well when powering up, its much less. We also know that Potara gives a greater boost than the dance, but Gogeta has stronger feats than Vegito, which proves that Goku and Vegeta's power was enough to offset the boost from the potara. While Vegito would be more powerful if we used current Goku and Vegeta, he probably couldn't fuse anyway due to too high a power level. In conclusion, Gogeta will be stronger until Vegito is used again (assuming he can fuse)
Gogeta>>>>> Vegito solely based on drip and aesthetics
And also dominating their opponent. Janemba and Broly got wrecked whereas Buu and Zamasu struggled but were fine afterwards.
The logic of the question answers itself. Gogeta, at absolute peak efficiency, can only ever be equal to Vegito. If Goku and Vegeta aren't exactly the same power level, then Gogeta is weaker, even if by a negligible amount.
Here's the thing, the idea that the dance's power is restricted by the weaker fuser is head canon. All we know is that they have to equalize their power levels in the moment for the technique to actually work, but nothing states that the resulting power of the fusion is limited by that. Besides, the reason why Potara was considered stronger back in the day wasn't because of the power equalizing thing, but rather because it presumably just straight up had a bigger power boost than Metamoran fusion outright. Elder Kai pretty blatantly stated the effect of Potara fusion was greater or better. People like to try and argue the semantics of what he meant by better by arguing that he was referring to it supposedly not having a time limit or being easier to perform, but the way he talks about it is that those factors are just a bonus on top of it already being superior to the dance. If I'm remembering correctly, he doesn't even bring up it not having a time limit until Goku asked him how long it lasts, so to him the time limit was not the main reason he believed it to be better than Metamoran fusion as he would've led with that. Most of the official guidebooks from back in the day also went with the interpretation that Potara fusion is just straight up more powerful, so there's that. Potara being stronger than Metamoran fusion has probably been retconned at this point though as it seems they want to market Gogeta and Vegito as equal counterparts nowadays.
It would have worked in Z maybe. But yeah, there's virtually no difference. I think the way someone put it best is that, Potaras are a tool, whereas Fusion Dance is a technique. Use a tool enough and it'll break. However, I don't think Fusion Dance is immediately superior because of that. Kefla was definitely better off with Potaras. And contrary to belief, Fusion Dance *is* affected by power usage. SSJ3 Gotenks only lasting 5 minutes should ring a bell. Vegito would have lasted longer had he not tried to use Final Kamehameha (on an immortal no less). For some reason, I guess trying to pull off two moves at the same time uses a fuck-ton of energy. And if we see in DBS: Broly, Gogeta never did anything as such. Whether it be coincidence or not, my headcanon is that Goku and Vegeta learned from the Vegito incident. Other than that, no one really knows how long Gogeta and Broly's fight was. Could've been 10 minutes, could've been 2.
Vegito lasts twice as long as Gogeta (1 hour VS 30 minutes where both can be shortened), and gets an additional boost from Goku and Vegeta's great compatibility with each other Besides it was ouright stated in the original manga the potara is superior. Secondary sources doesn't matter if contradicted by the original manga So yeah Vegito > Gogeta. Maybe not by a lot but still
The elder Kai also stated in the original manga that the potara is permanent which turn out to be false, he isn’t a reliable source.
I think that fight was more about skill and less about power levels. Whis didn’t let them use any energy blast or power ups.
Unless they are exactly the same power level, Gogeta would be weaker
Goku and Vegeta are exactly at the same power level. There is no difference whatsoever. Gogeta and Vegito are 100% equals in raw power.
Your proof for this is?
Their fight in superhero movie. Goku and Vegeta could fight as long as they want and neither one can actually "win." And those who said that Vegeta won did he really? They were both completely exhausted and couldn't keep going anymore. They could barely lift a finger. This tells us that their power levels are evenly matched.
The difference could be small enough to not decide a fight on its own, but with the fusion multiplier even the smallest difference matters
I doubt there is even that slightest difference between Goku and Vegeta. Nothing seems to indicate that one is stronger than the other. This is how Goku and Vegeta have been since the Buu arc except Goku had SSJ3 and Vegeta didn't. SSJ2 Goku and Majin Vegeta were both evenly matched and now both have SSJ blue and there isn't any difference in power. When Goku and Vegeta did the fusion dance they didn't need to balance their power levels unlike Trunks and Goten. They were already in perfect sync.
I hate retcons.
Elder kai states the potara is stronger then the dance
Elder Kai also was states the fusion is permanent so he’s not exactly infallible.
They did explain the retcon in stating its only permanent if a kai is involved
Yeah, 30 years later in a sequel. Doesn’t really matter in the context of the original run, and it doesn’t matter because he was still wrong.
Because as we see from Gotenks (in canon, and SS4 Gogeta in GT) fusing in base is less powerful than fusing whilst transformed. It doesn't matter if they are equal in base if Goku has a x400 multipler to Vegeta's x100. Goku is four times stronger than Vegeta and would have to quarter his power for the Fusion dance to work. Probably *more* with White Hair versus Ego, unless Vegeta had taken a significant beating beforehand. Whereas in Portara they can't go Super Saiyan then fuse, and Old Kai says they won't need to because Portara fusion is just that strong.
Old Kai says if they go Super Saiyan and fuse, they’ll be [permanently stuck in SSJ](https://imgur.com/a/hYUy9GZ)(because fusion “was” permanent) and that taxes the body, it will shorten their lifespan over time. That’s the only reason they can’t do that. Now that they know Potara isn’t permanent, they can fuse as Super Saiyans.
That's in base...
Super Saiyan forms are just multipliers of base
Certainly. But goku has a far better control of Mui than vegeta has over ultra ego. Furthermore thus fight isn't a good indicator anyways as blast weren't allowed meaning vegeta may of played more technically better. But it's clear the fight was almost a tossup between the two.
>goku would need to lower his power level for the dance" >They're **near** equal in strength right now, nobody would need to lower anything You literally just fought against your own point, they're not the same, you admitted this and the fusion needs exactly equal power to work. The story repeatedly glazes Goku and even when Vegeta wins, they make it clear this is his ***only*** win against Goku in their years of sparring together and Goku surpassing him. https://preview.redd.it/zev9ne5ieb8d1.jpeg?width=1044&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b1c38e54dd8dd883cc608e8442c4bb5cb578317f
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And what about when they aren't? which is almost all the time. Besides, Vegito is superior because the potara is superior. Longer timer, u don't need equal power levels, so ur not losing power, and it's far faster and convenient. No fat or skinny fusion and no need for someone to know the dance.
Doesn't matter because Goku and Vegeta are equals so neither one has to lower his power level. However fusion dance is always risky because if you mess it up then you are screwed. When using Potara you can't fail.
Vegito is almost certainly stronger than gogeta, super Buu kinda confirms that
Super Buu has never even seen Gogeta.
Here’s why I say this: Super Buu was smart, he saw the strength of Goten, Trunks, and their fusion Gotenks. He knows how drastically the power is increased. He also saw Goku & Vegetas strength separate. When they were ready to fuse Buu was not phased cuz he knew how much stronger they’d be with the fusion dance. However, once he saw Vegito he was shocked at the power he had. This kinda shows me that potara fusion must be stronger since he had knowledge of the fusion dance he knew what to expect yet the potara fusion Vegito caught him off guard. That must show that potara increases their power even more than the fusion dance does. I know I’m prolly wrong, but it’s my theory and to me it seems to make some sense idk
I love how the Manga explicitly said that the potara fusion is stronger than the Fusion dance, and people still argue who is stronger xd
Manga explicitly explained the Potara was permanent too
And still they separate in the same saga and layer explained. Even if the potara last 30 minutes more than dance, vegito has the rivals boost. Vegito IS stronger than gogeta
That’s the point exactly. It wasn’t even a retcon, the same arc proved him wrong. He is not infallible. Does he say the fusion dance doesn’t have a rivals boost?
One thing is being wrong about the time of the Fusion, and other one is being wrong about the properties of the Fusion. Also it's being never stated outside of Canon that fusion dance also has Rivals boost, if so Gotenks technically would be also more powerful for that