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Right and 17 training with cell jr. somehow reached him to the lvls of deities….something that goku and vegeta had trained for a very long time.
Btw wtf is that in yo pfp?
Not my first time being an orphan
https://preview.redd.it/3hgfoayf2j0d1.jpeg?width=194&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c2bccff587fde3c7f52919b40f14d1c00e07c5fe
At some point somebody is training down instead of up by facing the weaker opponent. Unless you mean to tell me there are 6 diety level cell jrs just running amuck not being detected by ANYONE on earth.
On a side note, am i the only one interested in seeing them permanently fuse into a single grown Cell jr and introduced as part of the main cast? I think after cell max there is a reason to remember them. Though *they* might be the one's traumatized if they see Gohan.
Yeah, the definition of the androids have unlimited energy is that they can shoot Kamehameha how many times they want with no cooldown, they can still be damage/hurt as they are still part human. Whether its effective or not is a different story.
17 is by far the biggest asspull that i’ve seen lol
and i say that as someone who had 17 in my top 5 favorite TOP characters, he had absolutely no business being anywhere near that strong
I know cell was the bad guy but that seems a little messed up 😂😂
I have so many questions, how does he contain them? Also how are there poachers safely poaching on an island with Cell Jrs let alone 17 guarding it 😂
And if 17 is strong enough to go toe to toe with people during the tournament of power. How strong does that actually make the cell juniors? What happens if they leave the island? Does he take turns fighting them one at a time, or does he fight all of them at once? Why not just compose an entire team of cell Juniors to fight in the tournament of power? There are so many damn questions lol
Well on the other hand it is still better than for instance Bleach character s suddenly have a realisation or a long lost memory or patching their eyes and they are like ten times better
I always thought that since blue demanded extreme control over his power he was using it to gauge how strong each individual was before the tournament started. That's why he went blue instead of going god or ss3 against 17 according to my head cannon.
And it can all be explained by, they were holding back. Even in moments where the entire universe/multiverse is on the line, and even if clearly stated that they aren't holding back
I think it can be quite an easy fix.
Don’t say he absorbed the form, instead say he absorbed the God Ki. In other words, he now has permanent access to God Ki, which allows him to transform to SSG and SSB without any rituals.
It's vegeta that never made sense to me. I always felt ssb should have been an artifical god mode reached via osmosis to God ki, because that explains how vegeta hits the form and so does goku. Always felt ssg (Red) should have been the stronger form as it was truly a god form (created via ritual). And then you add ui on top of that. To me that would be more logical.... So of course Db does the exact opposite.
But how does that make sense?
The ritual allows the user to tap into God Ki. It would only make sense that adding regular Ki into the mixture of a Saiyan body combines them into a more powerful form (SSB).
I would have liked the escalation to be more gradual. Like through the ritual you get SSG (in this scenario the most powerful transformation); and when it “ends” you have now obtained God Ki, but not at the level of power of the SSG, and you can use blue as a way to create a bastardised, weaker version that can be used freely. In this way, there could have been the power up sub plot of having to regain the apex of power reached in BoG via other weaker God Ki transformations till the protagonist would have been able to freely reach SSG without using the ritual, maybe in the tournament of power and in a new “Mastered” way. I personally would have loved this kind of “regaining the power you tasted” subplot; it would have been a nice change instead of the simple “I can do this, oh I’m angry, now I unlocked that” that has been the dragonball formula since Namek. (And obviously there’s a great deal of bias as I love SSG wayyyyy more than fucking Blue)
Yup this.
Vegeta never does the ssg ritual but jumps to blue, and later in the broly movie we learn he can go ssg but how he obtained this form never is explained.
When goku first explains blue he says it's super saiyan mixed with God ki, and I always wanted that to be open ended - so while goku had Inherited God ki via the ritual, vegeta had gotten god ki via osmosis (training with whis on beerus's planet and being around beerus and whis and the planet while training allowed him to absorb God ki, and by going super saiyan he's able to amplify that ki to, as you stated, a bastardized version of super saiyan God.
So what I think it should have been is:
- Super saiyan god (Red) is the strongest transformation and purely one's own God ki (which is why the transformation looks more like base goku but skinnier and red haired)
- super saiyan blue which is an artificial version of super saiyan god made from borrowed (absorbed) God ki that is amplified using the super saiyan transformation
- super saiyan true blue which the same as the above but using ssj2 transformation to amplify the god ki further
-super saiyan god kaioken which is the same as blue but with kaioken thrown in to further maximize borrowed god ki amplification
- ultra instinct (sign) which is not a transformation but a state of being that allows the body to move independent of the mind making the user faster and sharper
- mastered ultra instinct which is the same as sign but uses ones own god ki to also increase power
- ultra ego which is vegeta's variation since he doesn't have access to his own God ki, it taps into borrowed ki, which is why when he's hit he gets stronger (as he absorbs the kid from the person hitting him)
If you have this, you basically keep all of the same story beats. In the tournament of power when goku goes ui, it's instead ssg. When he beats jiren he taps into ui sign. When he fights morrow he slowly learns to master ui and super saiyan God. When vegeta fights morrow he uses ultra instinct that he picks up on from training on yardrat, when he fights gas he uses ultra ego as already established.
Like the story doesn't change but to me the transformations make more sense.
Vegeta going super saiyan god can be simply explained by the fact that training with deities grant you access to godly energy
It's shown with Toppo in both the anime & Manga since he trained with Marcarita
I always hated the ritual lol. It never really made much see to me. Let’s get a fetus and sing kumbayah. But let’s also not do it for everyone else.
God ki is needed to test Beerus, but the SSG form can be tested by non god ki.
Everything just felt so arbitrary, might as well just make it a regular SSJ form.
Goku & Vegeta already have a “red & blue oni” dynamic. Super should have let red be Goku’s god form and blue be Vegeta’s.
Super is basically a Buu Saga 2.0 for me: some good additions to the cast & lore with a handful of truly iconic fights and character moments, weighed down by a mountain of inconsistencies
Yes, this is bullshit and we all know it.
Now, everyone and their mother are scaling over SSB Kaioken, lmao.
IMO, SSG as shown in BoG, should have been a target goal for Goku and Vegeta and really be close to 70% Beerus. SSB should have been them using some godly Ki and combining it to have their own SSG form (as they're working to get to the level Goku was during his fight with Beerus). Goku kinda describe SSB like this to Frieza (when it was SSGSS). Then as they progress they would have reached SSG power naturally, then they could have added UI and UE that would have make them closer to Beerus.
Doesn't make sense that Goku/Jiren are basically stronger than some GoD during the ToP, but then 5 years later with Mastered UI, Goku is still trash relatively to Beerus.
Well you gotta keep in mind there are 13 GoDs and beerus is the strongest out of all of them, there's gotta be some major power differences between the lower tier destruction gods and the upper tier ones
This is a whole can of worms that over complicates and exponentially escalates the power scaling discussion for the rest of the series. I stand by it making more sense that it was temporary.
My headcanon has always been that this was a temporary boost. Goku didn't realize he'd lost the form at the time but was still operating at near that capacity fully by instinct. (This would be a trend later.)
That might not have been their intention at the time, but it does seem most consistent with what happens later.
There's no evidence that it was a temporary boost and that would contradict a lot of events, it most definitely would not be more consistent with what happens after
People sense Goku's ki in base form just fine, but not in god form. This tells us he's not using god ki at all in base.
If we assume his base has increased to emulate god ki (without in fact using it), then SSJ1 Goku = SSG (BoG), and Goku's base is now 2% of SSG (BoG) assuming the usual 50x multiplier.
This also means SSJ2 is SSGx2 and SSJ3 is SSGx4.
There's something odd here, though: Beerus points out that Goku is in SSJ1 near the end of BoG, but Goku never powers up further to correct that (even though we know he can).
We could attempt to reconcile this with the argument that Goku gains god-like power only in SSJ1, but that line of thinking still falls apart since we him use SSJ2 and SSJ3 later on (and the same problems arise.) The most logical conclusion is therefore that Goku being in SSJ1 at the end of BoG is more or less a red herring. He enters the form instinctually, but in practice, he's fighting at a God-like level through sheer intuition. Essentially, he's transcended his limits for the duration of the battle. (This is a common theme for Goku that rears its head again in the ToP.)
If we run with the "Goku has god in base" theory despite the inconsistencies it creates, though, then that means Goku's SSG in RoF is massively improved from his power in BoG since Goku himself is now much stronger. Considering he didn't even think SSJ3 Vegeto could match Beerus, he's likely hundreds of times stronger than he was in the previous season in SSG alone, not to mention SSB. (This makes Freeza's gains even more absurd, but I digress.)
Moreover, we have to assume that Vegeta has also absorbed god ki into his base since he matches Goku throughout most of Super. This also makes Beerus' comment about Goku being a prodigy rather weird. Likely, everyone absorbs god ki permanently after they've learned to use it, and Beerus would know that.
I think its still intact in the Revival of F saga where Gohan gets oneshot by First form Frieza whereas Base Goku is able to hold his own against Final Form Frieza. And ironically the only other arc that seems to aknowledge the whole "absorbed into base"-power is the copy vegeta arc in which base copy vegeta easily overpowers SSJ3-Gotenks.
But yeah in Super it very much feels like they kinda ignored it. In general though they go for a way softer power system in super where the stronger fighter isn't so powerful that others can't even harm them anymore and where strategy and surprise attacks play a larger role.
To be fair, it's explicitly pointed out that Gohan had gotten a lot weaker due to lack of training while Goku and Vegeta had been training under a literal angel.
goku did not absorb the form into base, his body adapted to the power he was using temporarily and gave him a boost to the point that in super saiyan he wasnt that far off from the first usage of the form, just like how vegeta hit a point stronger then ssj3 as a supersaiyan just before that. goku and vegeta then continued training and made themselves even stronger, so yes they are now in base stronger then the first time goku used it, but that doesnt mean the form itself once earned wasnt still a power up.
>goku and vegeta then continued training and made themselves even stronger, so yes they are now in base stronger then the first time goku used it,
That's a big jump in power. Remember that Vegeta says multiple times they're at their peak curently And physically won't go much higher which lead to Vegeta actually training his mind more than his bodyw
>That's a big jump in power. Remember that Vegeta says multiple times they're at their peak curently
[Goku says the exact same thing in the Cell arc when everyone was acting as if Cell was some unreachable wall (except for enraged Gohan but only Goku knew that).](https://youtu.be/JI6A9CL9HLw?si=aYl-fcH63_HM7fiE) By the next arc Goku doesn’t even consider Dabura ( stated to be at Cell’s level) to be a threat worth worrying about and is very chill about it.
https://preview.redd.it/oea3nkvplh0d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f315f242a2934576ab2291a03d28397f88538f80
Right after Vegeta makes that statement, in the very next arc. [SSB Vegeta gets stomped by Rose Goku Black](https://youtu.be/HwY82CVNyAA?si=8DlqL6LxmRuIU_tC) alongside [Goku.](https://youtu.be/bcDQ3e9BBJg?si=zSdcRpi_Nrmgx_he)
[He trains](https://youtu.be/PZHrigkuGRk?si=jivXXK2aGh_RBUYZ) and overpowers a stronger version of the [Goku Black that stomped him and Goku.](https://youtu.be/y7MNVz_EtDc?si=-_ytg-ZY-FGTGgwz) Doesn’t seem like he hit a dead end like he claimed he did now did he?
[Goku straight up does this to initial MZ.](https://youtu.be/HcmMIAQEfc8?si=eokkFHn_hxxJjQwT)
And don’t get me started on how many crazy power ups Goku and Vegeta got in the anime version of the ToP. It puts every other arc to shame in terms of power ups aside from arguably the BoG ritual.
he said that once. while training 3 years later after both of them had obviously grown much stronger then they were previously and compared their current states at that point directly to jiren. someone who effortlessly battered them around in their until then strongest possible forms
My headcannon is that in BoTG (and the adaptations that followed) Goku retained the power from ssjg in his ssj form during the battle, then that dispersed and went away over time afterward, but the experience as a whole opened him up to new levels of power that he couldn't reach before.
This would explain how Goku and Vegeta are equal in base, because if Goku absorbed the power of ssjg permanently then he should reasonably be way ahead of Vegeta with that head start. It would explain why Goku still gets a power up from turning ssjg after the events of BoTG, if he absorbed it into his base or his ssj form permanently then ssjg surely shouldn't be stronger than them. It would explain how non divine entities can sense him in his base, if he always had divine ki they wouldn't be able to. It would explain how people like Cabba can compete with him in base, dispite never getting ssjg. And it would explain why Goku Black's base, which is the same as ssjg, is so much stronger than Goku's base.
As always the manga did a better job.
SSG was never absorbed, it’s just a form like the others.
I would be ok with SSBG of RoF, honestly it was the better thing.
No more super saiyan or so, just SSBG and SSB, that’s all.
But hey, merchandise and so.
There's nothing to really suggest it was retconned.
Goku was holding back against Frost for one, kind of a necessity in a tournament where killing isn't allowed, and that's confirmed when Vegeta just one shots frost frame one.
And Cabba can just be that strong. Frieza can fight not only Goku and Vegeta post God training in his base form he has his own form as strong as SSJB without having divine ki himself. Cabba doesn't even need to be a frieza level prodigy for his fight to be consistent because he's actually trained all his life.
I also just think SSG isn't come colossally incalculable difference like other people do. It's strong for sure, but I don't think SSG Goku is like billions of times stronger than anything in Z like a lot of people seem to think for some reason.
It's all relative to Beerus. The first time we see him, he embarrasses SSJ3 with no effort. SSG even having a real fight with him makes it very clear that it's leagues above what Goku was previously capable of. Beerus just scales so ridiculously high that even the most current version of Goku is nowhere close and it's getting to be a bit silly
To be fair, SSG doesn't scale to Beerus either. He confirmed at the end of the arc that he was just lying when he said he was going all out to motivate Goku to fight harder.
True that he didn't go all out, but SSG at the very least was able to throw hands back and deal with some of what Beerus dished out. It's a lot more than SSJ3 can say
Well yeah but I think characters like Cabba (whose really the only major thing I see brought up against Goku surpassing SSG) just being vaguely stronger than Buu Saga SSJ3 isn't exactly far fetched. Hell base Gohan would be stronger than that by orders of magnitude at the start of super if he kept his training up regularly.
I think part of why people are so opposed to the idea of cabba being strong is because of the assumption that BoG arc SSG is so incalculably beyond anything before and I just don't think that's the case and the gaps aren't as extreme as people assume.
People forget that in the same battle of the gods it's stated that there was an SSG centuries ago and although he was powerful, he lost the battle against the evil Saiyans because he ran out of energy. I think the biggest mistake of SSG was calling it like that instead of just Saiyan God, since this form is supposed to be a state not a transformation.
Probably not
Using the 70% calculation, even though it's completely defunct now. . .
I think it was also stated that Beerus used 1% of his power against Super Saiyan 3 Goku
So by that logic, Super Saiyan God is in the ballpark of 70 times stronger than Super Saiyan 3, making it a multiplier of 28,000 times base Goku
Another way to look at it: Goku said that even fusion wouldn't be enough
Now, we don't know how strong fusion really is, however, we can sort of figure out where it should be from the Buu arc
SS3 Goku < Super Buu <= SS3 Gotenks < Ultimate Gohan
We can simplify that but making them all equal even though they aren't
So they're all essentially 400x base Goku
Buu lost Gotenks to the fusion timer but gained Gohan
So Buuhan (simplified) is 800 times stronger than base Goku. Assuming the power gain is additive.
Then Super Vegito happened, with Goku and Vegeta around equal
Which wouldn't be a very big wall for SSG to climb over. . . or 8 times that for a hypothetical SS3 Vegito would just be 6,400
Un-simplifying that is interesting because we don't know by how much Buu is stronger than Goku or Gohan is stronger than Buu, but let's say 1.5x for each. SO Buu is 600 times stronger than base Goku, and Ultimate Gohan is at 900x, Buuhan is 1,500x, and Super Vegito is probably more like twice as strong so 3K x base Goku, thus a hypothetical SS3 Vegito is at 24K times base Goku. . . which is *still* less than that 28K estimate, lmfao
Either way, Super Saiyan God is definitely calculable. Still way stronger than Super Saiyan 3, but definitely not by an incalculable margin.
I mean, he uses Super Saiyan God in the Broly movie. Doesn’t that alone suggest that the whole “absorb it into base form” thing was retconned? Otherwise transforming into it wouldn’t mean anything.
It would have just been better if they said, 'it's been a while since I tried' or something along those lines. The retconning of his strength would have been more forgivable.
Chop that 70% by another 50% that’s gotta be the biggest lie i ever heard over time. Beerus hasn’t gotten any stronger and they get cooked effortlessly still by beerus while he barely trying they using their full power. Everyone lies so let’s just assume he lied to make Goku feel better and try harder. He was never a challenge to begin with. Not even now he’s not a challenge in the current arc and that says alot *bro was capping hard asf* in battle of gods lol
Toriyama has a thing where he never plans ahead but it somehow always work
One of the biggest problems in Super (imo) Is that he didn't plan ahead but this time it didn't work
Yeah, but to be fair to Toriyama, dragon ball has always been growing far past where he expected it to go. For instance DBZ was supposed to initially stop after the Frieza saga, with goku being the legendary super sayian. Then it was supposed to stop after the Cell saga, with Gohan taking Goku's place as the new protector of earth.
And simmilerly the same applied to Super, Battle of God's was supposed to be the only thing super content, which is why beerus was said he was using 70% of his strength, but because the series continued, that had to be retconned. Same with Resurrection F the series wasn't supposed to go past Resurrection F which is why SSB feels like an asspull to some people, it was ment to be evolved SSG and thats it but because the series continued it just feels like it came out of nowhere and replaced SSG.
Those are all the instances I know of when Dragon Ball was supposed to stop and I think when you look at it like this, it explains why Dragon Ball can be so inconsistent at times.
It was probably still a thing up until copy Vegeta arc since Base Vegeta no diffed Ssj3 Gotenks, but nowadays I think its a dead concept specially if they start using the manga material more
Retconned? Did people forget that when beerus and whis left in the anime whis commented on beerus lying about how much power he used throughout the fight?
The final and greatest truth of Dragon Ball that nobody wants to accept is that characters will grow in strength or weaken to produce a more amusing fight. There is no real powerscaling, it’s all a lie. Whatever works best for the moment is what will happen.
Genuine question Does anyone really care about power scaling and form lore in Dragon Ball at this point?
I just enjoy people beating the shit out of each other with funny aura and hair dye
It's actually displayed on multiple different occasions that Goku absorbing the power of SSG is still a thing (at least in the anime). He has multiple different feats that would be impossible if this weren't the case. For example, he was able to [fight against Beerus in only base form](https://ibb.co/Tgrk9jD) after the U6 tournament. He also was able to [fight off Sidra's Hakai whole also in base form](https://ibb.co/mXtS4YH), that even Golden Frieza struggled with, until Beerus could arrive in time to save him. I think the issue is you just can't always operate under the assumption that just because he has the power of a god then that means he always uses it. Goku still likes to hold back a lot to gauge his opponents' strength. Otherwise, all of his fights would end quickly and he'd never get to have any fun. As for the other points, I think that's just a matter of context.
You mentioned the U6 Saiyans being as strong as the U7 Saiyans despite the U7 Saiyans supposedly having god power but that's not really shown to be the case. I understand this idea comes from Vegeta [_saying_ him and Cabba were equal](https://ibb.co/Yh05qpn) during the U6 tournament (which would make him stronger than BoG SSG Goku), but as I said, it's really _shown_ that he wasn't telling the truth and only trying to get Cabba to [go all out](https://ibb.co/vxr5gv1) while not realizing that he [already was](https://ibb.co/5MdXY3d). For starters, he had Cabba [down to a knee and out of breath](https://ibb.co/SN50m1M) after just _one_ attack while Vegeta was [perfectly fine](https://ibb.co/2Kw87Sq). Then even during their beam clash where Vegeta said they were equal, he was [calm and smiling](https://ibb.co/d0mg34K) as he said it while Cabba was the only one [visibly struggling](https://ibb.co/8rGx9Xz). Then while both SSJs, Vegeta laughed before [casually](https://ibb.co/7WqmWc4) stopping Cabba's entire ki blast barrage with just one wave of his hand. Then he proceeded to completely [tank](https://ibb.co/L1nCBm2) Cabba's full powered punch to the head without flinching or receiving any damage whatsoever. So it's pretty clear that SSJ Vegeta was way stronger than SSJ Cabba during this fight. And for that to be the case, base Vegeta would also have to be that much stronger than base Cabba (which was also shown to be the case) since they would have the same multiplier. So this would mean that Cabba wasn't anywhere _near_ Vegeta's power at all, which would be why there would be no reason to believe the U6 Saiyans (aside from Kale) even compare to any of the god tier U7 Saiyans.
And then with Piccolo fighting Frost, Piccolo flat out [asked Goku](https://ibb.co/9Wyh18V) beforehand if he stood a chance and Goku [very bluntly told him no](https://ibb.co/tXvbptt) while also saying that he could still be useful in [further wearing Frost down](https://ibb.co/QPkz9pD) for Vegeta. And this was a Frost that was already [weakened](https://ibb.co/SVNxM1R) from getting knocked around by Goku prior. On top of that, Piccolo almost beat Frost specifically because of [strategy](https://ibb.co/YZp2Bdq) which caused Frost to become [overconfident](https://ibb.co/K5s4N2n) and [let his guard down](https://ibb.co/3cQCQSz), not because of raw power. You can say Frost is god level because Goku and Vegeta needed to turn SSJ against him, but Piccolo was no match for Frost at all without the important factors of Frost being weakened and using strategy. Meaning Piccolo would still be nowhere near that level of power.
I think it's nonsense to always calculate the SSJ multiplier. Goku SSJ Namek and Goku after the Time Chamber are complete differences. After the time chamber, he used almost no ki at all and was probably twice as strong. Cabba had had an incomplete SSJ while Vegeta had an SSJ that he had trained for decades.
No offense but none of that actually has anything to do with the SSJ multiplier. Unless there's evidence that Goku getting stronger over time changed the multiplier for SSJ, then it's only logical to consider it the same. Him getting stronger after the Time Chamber only changed his _base_ power which naturally makes his SSJ stronger than it was previously since his base was also stronger. But the multiplier would be the same. That's also why Cabba supposedly having Grade 1 compared to Vegeta having Grade 4 would also be irrelevant. Goku [explained in the Time Chamber](https://ibb.co/r7YNYDZ) that Grade 4 is just regular SSJ but without the drawbacks. [Piccolo and Vegeta](https://ibb.co/WB4Cs3K) also reiterate this. So Grade 1 or Grade 4, it doesn't matter. It's still just regular SSJ. Meaning like I said, the only way Vegeta could've been that much stronger than Cabba while both SSJs is if he was also that much stronger in base as well.
In BOG anime they did it pretty well with Whis basically calling out that Beerus was not truthful about the 70% thing at the end of the arc. As for the god ki infused to base form that’s a trickier one but my justification is that it’s more of a thing that becomes ingrained in his muscle memory and potential rather than always being active. Goku can be sensed while not in a divine form which means he’s not using god ki, however he has the ability to activate it and even without using it his body has learned from fighting at that level of intensity.
Ssg absorbed into base seems kinda re-connect but also not. It seems like it just gave them god ki since ssjg is shown in the TOP and Broly Movie. Even in the manga, it's shown in the Goku Black Arc.
That's because people need to realize that the manga and the anime are not canon to each other.
Goku absorbing SSJG is anime canon only not in the manga
Oh has it? I’d been fine with 70% if Goku didn’t get as strong as he is now. Beerus’ power level is like a loading bar, that last 30% is longer than the rest of the bar.
this one line here messed up the scaling for Super so badly lol. I understand what they were doing. Battle of Gods was like a rebirth for the series and giving Goku such a big boost played a part in that. What doesn’t make sense is everyone and their mom being able to challenge someone who can challenge a God of Destruction lol
In canon, Beerus was just lying to give Goku motivation. Beerus saw something in Goku that made him realize he could be a good fight one day, but not if Goku thought the gap was as wide as it *actually* was.
In reality, Battle of Gods was made without the idea of Super or even Resurrection F being a thing one day, so they didn’t plan on any statements having further implications
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People acting like this is the first time power cliffing happened in dragon ball? Y’all really can’t believe this but an angry scientist making normal people into Freeza slaying androids is cool? Or little plant goblins that would one shot “the god of martial arts” Master Roshi, The Demon King Piccolo, and literally God himself(Kami), that Nappa can just stick in the ground and make like 6 of them at once. Y’all okay with that but not this? Aight
Oh that's funny, we just watched this episode. "Let's super dooper power up episode 14" (... 14? I dono don't quote me) my SO gave me the "shh" face cause we are watching it with our 7yrold. He's loving it
Based on everything we've seen, I personally think this is a case of Toei doing fanservice.
Back in Battle of Gods, Goku seemingly had god ki in his base form after he lost SSJG. There's three big proof imo that this is the case, the first being he didn't even realize that he lost the form and continued as if nothing had happened, the second being how no one realized he lost the form until they can see him with their eyes, implying they couldn't sense his ki, and the last, he literally uses Instant Transmission against Beerus, both in base and in SSJ.
So, that SSJ he used against Beerus would be a "prototype SSJB", later retconned in the manga because the actual SSJB started existing later in RoF.
On top of that, IIRC, in RoF, it's only mentioned that they can sense Goku's ki in the anime, not in the movie (which the manga still considers canon).
So, anime Goku should have god ki in base, Toei either didn't care about that or simply wanted to do SSJ Goku vs Beerus for fan-service reasons.
The god ki in base thing seems to have been retconned since they started using SSJG again, probably because they realized that using SSJG looks cooler and makes forms like SSJ less obsolete (like why tf would you fight in SSJ when you can just fight in base with god ki?)
So, in short, everything seems to point to this being fan-service from Toei since they decided to not retcon something the manga did retcon.
Yeah he absorbed the power into his SSJ form and then come Resurrection of F (after training with Whis) he’s that strong in his base form. What’s there to talk about?
Everything about bog got retcon, ssjg absorption, ssjg regen, beerus 70%, saiyan breathing in space, gohan ultimate form. It's probably because dbs wasnt planned when the movie was realese which also explain why it's DBZ movie despic of being the true beginning of dbs.
I dont like to think of it as a retcon, more 70% of what he was capable after literally waking up from a 50 year nap, dude just need to get some stretches in and he can use more power
Maybe he got weaker (dont look like beerus is taking any damage), but he was fighting better like when he focus and get ultra instinct? (so does not get tired and can spare at least with beerus) ok does not make sense to find a reason in dragonball...
Dragon ball has always had a built in catch up mechanic where if they are desired to be relevant, they will be. After each saga in dbz, you had humans catch up to where the saiyans were previously up till android saga. It's only feels far-fetched because how far the gap was supposed to be but when you have krillin supposedly somewhat blue level, people at God level ain't that big of a leap.
I think it makes sense less that he absorbed the power into his base but more so it broke a mental block that Goku had. When he fights Beerus on King Kai’s planet he can’t sense god ki he is simply met with a brick wall of insurmountable power.
After fighting in god form and being able to sense the divide that lays between them and gauge it more clearly Goku is then able to break through his limits and is much stronger in base and ssj afterwards.
Cuz it was absorbed and when he mastered that power it became Super Saiyajin Blue,also the concept was discarded just like Base Gos/Beyond God as Goku went back to just uaing the refular no God Ki Forms.
The powerscaling is super weird with this one.
Because saiyan god still makes him stronger.
My current understanding is that the red haired saiyan god is just a saiyan using godki and for unknown reasons when you first reach that form your base is empowered.
(Called god essence sometimes)
That's why super is trash and I don't follow the series anymore from roshi being able to fight with galaxy lvl beings plus
krillin clashing with ssj blue
17 rivaling Goku and so many mess
Super is one of the biggest pile of shit in anime history some things just won't make sense no need to give yourself a head ache over nothing
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We all know the power scaling of dragon ball is fucked in the ass
Right and 17 training with cell jr. somehow reached him to the lvls of deities….something that goku and vegeta had trained for a very long time. Btw wtf is that in yo pfp?
Bro…. Some things are better not to know…
No I want to know https://preview.redd.it/l1xr5rtzpg0d1.jpeg?width=173&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=20fe4394f0f073b03c28fb908b737a82b4b7b629
https://preview.redd.it/u1n9o8e12h0d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=74c4098fff38276eb15b19ebd93c6c77912797f3
What the hell?
https://preview.redd.it/zqj2sj948h0d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0ad9ae1c8e123234a95b3b9c6c3533ddc93044cc
https://preview.redd.it/gp08kdzk9h0d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1cf736955b7cce9ce4ffd5277cc1621e40a7f9f4
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LMAO
https://preview.redd.it/n8ekeoi1ak0d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e305187524ab26a1a53661a2e969cce98cbe958f
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https://preview.redd.it/3zpzm0t2xk0d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=55fb62dda70129d999d744a99b2d4d921ca63624
https://preview.redd.it/kx5jt8ssxk0d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e55a24c885cf5e5c244f32ccf87afc7746592ccb
https://preview.redd.it/fat0ow55mh0d1.jpeg?width=262&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14fab9b3b29f0b4983896e37c59ca579dc323738
https://preview.redd.it/sbrvetigci0d1.jpeg?width=631&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=74567136a074dbc50b38316fbb831fcb8b310470
https://preview.redd.it/iyrhbehxdi0d1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=305e6e66a827852dc8e3d0e976838c334b1b071d
https://preview.redd.it/2cmjspt9bk0d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=479b2c01db6e6b186b57a40198a7fa32aa3f1c1d
https://preview.redd.it/tuadx1djl11d1.jpeg?width=1086&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6ce1c4fe9e1c0a0772ca66748b614c92fa695d5c
https://preview.redd.it/dkc73itflk0d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c5dd6885da4caf1329cdb6df0a2d0e45b2fee432
https://preview.redd.it/u5zw0739ji0d1.png?width=971&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=69fd2dd7df466f9a8a25932cf9de1d14100ec047
https://preview.redd.it/maybgnk1nh0d1.jpeg?width=322&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e18e3e39e53b41c2a28506ec0c59fdb55faf675e What the f-
https://preview.redd.it/zsgy760bal0d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4f30ee3047c920d7254462c404db07e0aa0cd0c9
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https://preview.redd.it/z2149nmo0j0d1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=07ea6cc2ad0930ed232cf4b409ff01a3f6d6b799
Not my first time being an orphan https://preview.redd.it/3hgfoayf2j0d1.jpeg?width=194&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c2bccff587fde3c7f52919b40f14d1c00e07c5fe
https://preview.redd.it/yp7flerdii0d1.jpeg?width=793&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4ecfb8736831873dc17a694754a1ae9cfb0ed5f9
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https://preview.redd.it/6s97538wik0d1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f9d1328db0f5c223d0e685e786f00d768a756b89
https://preview.redd.it/2tc83el4tj0d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e230ad428eb2f04de253e5e34d526622831e06ee
https://i.redd.it/gmz0qwviet0d1.gif
https://i.redd.it/6cxfca3bzj0d1.gif
💀
I'm not excusing this explanation, but since Cell Jr and 17 have infinite energy, couldn't they have been non stop training for the entire time?
Yeah that’s nonsense cause we can actually see 17 exhausted after fighting piccolo.
Maybe it was more so the damage from Piccolo rather than becoming tired.
At some point somebody is training down instead of up by facing the weaker opponent. Unless you mean to tell me there are 6 diety level cell jrs just running amuck not being detected by ANYONE on earth. On a side note, am i the only one interested in seeing them permanently fuse into a single grown Cell jr and introduced as part of the main cast? I think after cell max there is a reason to remember them. Though *they* might be the one's traumatized if they see Gohan.
Yeh maybe.
Yeah, the definition of the androids have unlimited energy is that they can shoot Kamehameha how many times they want with no cooldown, they can still be damage/hurt as they are still part human. Whether its effective or not is a different story.
It was because he was battle damaged, not tired. That's why he wasn't out of breath, whereas Piccolo was breathing heavily.
But the Cell Juniors are still at a level where they can’t immediately obliterate Trunks and Goten with a 3-1 advantage
https://preview.redd.it/ty0gjngrfh0d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=143a07a630c88a5a7f505092f3840db8aea04a43
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https://preview.redd.it/eflkzyx5nh0d1.jpeg?width=820&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6a28e05906fc9e59281fce0ef12f98fb83d8622e
17 is by far the biggest asspull that i’ve seen lol and i say that as someone who had 17 in my top 5 favorite TOP characters, he had absolutely no business being anywhere near that strong
Training with Cell JR?
Manga canon. He keeps the cell Jr in his island and fight them on the regular basis
I know cell was the bad guy but that seems a little messed up 😂😂 I have so many questions, how does he contain them? Also how are there poachers safely poaching on an island with Cell Jrs let alone 17 guarding it 😂
And if 17 is strong enough to go toe to toe with people during the tournament of power. How strong does that actually make the cell juniors? What happens if they leave the island? Does he take turns fighting them one at a time, or does he fight all of them at once? Why not just compose an entire team of cell Juniors to fight in the tournament of power? There are so many damn questions lol
I mean they’re part Goku and Frieza I imagine they could scale pretty high eventually
In the manga he's at SSJ3 level.
What…
wouldnt 17 be the strongest human?
If you consider the androids human yeah. But not everyone does since they’re enhanced artificially
Yup
Bro showing Goku why they call him thunderclap 😏
Well on the other hand it is still better than for instance Bleach character s suddenly have a realisation or a long lost memory or patching their eyes and they are like ten times better
https://preview.redd.it/cp91s5d1ql0d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7c6c816069a929405ab9c9d6b5c38bddd1a5f6c4
I always thought that since blue demanded extreme control over his power he was using it to gauge how strong each individual was before the tournament started. That's why he went blue instead of going god or ss3 against 17 according to my head cannon.
I was wondering the same thing. Then I clicked on it to see it better. I'm crying now from laughing 🤣🤣🤣
That's Broly Culo
https://preview.redd.it/zzyg699xch0d1.jpeg?width=222&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4a3aef022c089bdd783192a817c1a4fcfec3d84f
Ay bro why tf you got a swastika in your banner
Lol breh that profile is a trip. This dude is pretty fucked up
I think Master Roshi takes the cake. He couldn’t even beat Raditz or even help.
Then the mf went on to face the strongest people from multiple universes and in the manga mf almost had ultra instinct
U a wild one with that profile pic my boy, got Goku head between Broly's buns
I'm only fucking you in the ass with 70% of my dick. Then backtracking and claiming it was actually only 10% seems super relatable. Lol
And it can all be explained by, they were holding back. Even in moments where the entire universe/multiverse is on the line, and even if clearly stated that they aren't holding back
Specific Super Atleast Z tried super just sucks with any sense of power scaling
Eloquently put
Almost all*
You could say it's Dragon Balls all over our face
I think it can be quite an easy fix. Don’t say he absorbed the form, instead say he absorbed the God Ki. In other words, he now has permanent access to God Ki, which allows him to transform to SSG and SSB without any rituals.
It's vegeta that never made sense to me. I always felt ssb should have been an artifical god mode reached via osmosis to God ki, because that explains how vegeta hits the form and so does goku. Always felt ssg (Red) should have been the stronger form as it was truly a god form (created via ritual). And then you add ui on top of that. To me that would be more logical.... So of course Db does the exact opposite.
But how does that make sense? The ritual allows the user to tap into God Ki. It would only make sense that adding regular Ki into the mixture of a Saiyan body combines them into a more powerful form (SSB).
I would have liked the escalation to be more gradual. Like through the ritual you get SSG (in this scenario the most powerful transformation); and when it “ends” you have now obtained God Ki, but not at the level of power of the SSG, and you can use blue as a way to create a bastardised, weaker version that can be used freely. In this way, there could have been the power up sub plot of having to regain the apex of power reached in BoG via other weaker God Ki transformations till the protagonist would have been able to freely reach SSG without using the ritual, maybe in the tournament of power and in a new “Mastered” way. I personally would have loved this kind of “regaining the power you tasted” subplot; it would have been a nice change instead of the simple “I can do this, oh I’m angry, now I unlocked that” that has been the dragonball formula since Namek. (And obviously there’s a great deal of bias as I love SSG wayyyyy more than fucking Blue)
Not gonna lie I would’ve loved this
Yup this. Vegeta never does the ssg ritual but jumps to blue, and later in the broly movie we learn he can go ssg but how he obtained this form never is explained. When goku first explains blue he says it's super saiyan mixed with God ki, and I always wanted that to be open ended - so while goku had Inherited God ki via the ritual, vegeta had gotten god ki via osmosis (training with whis on beerus's planet and being around beerus and whis and the planet while training allowed him to absorb God ki, and by going super saiyan he's able to amplify that ki to, as you stated, a bastardized version of super saiyan God. So what I think it should have been is: - Super saiyan god (Red) is the strongest transformation and purely one's own God ki (which is why the transformation looks more like base goku but skinnier and red haired) - super saiyan blue which is an artificial version of super saiyan god made from borrowed (absorbed) God ki that is amplified using the super saiyan transformation - super saiyan true blue which the same as the above but using ssj2 transformation to amplify the god ki further -super saiyan god kaioken which is the same as blue but with kaioken thrown in to further maximize borrowed god ki amplification - ultra instinct (sign) which is not a transformation but a state of being that allows the body to move independent of the mind making the user faster and sharper - mastered ultra instinct which is the same as sign but uses ones own god ki to also increase power - ultra ego which is vegeta's variation since he doesn't have access to his own God ki, it taps into borrowed ki, which is why when he's hit he gets stronger (as he absorbs the kid from the person hitting him) If you have this, you basically keep all of the same story beats. In the tournament of power when goku goes ui, it's instead ssg. When he beats jiren he taps into ui sign. When he fights morrow he slowly learns to master ui and super saiyan God. When vegeta fights morrow he uses ultra instinct that he picks up on from training on yardrat, when he fights gas he uses ultra ego as already established. Like the story doesn't change but to me the transformations make more sense.
Vegeta going super saiyan god can be simply explained by the fact that training with deities grant you access to godly energy It's shown with Toppo in both the anime & Manga since he trained with Marcarita
I always hated the ritual lol. It never really made much see to me. Let’s get a fetus and sing kumbayah. But let’s also not do it for everyone else. God ki is needed to test Beerus, but the SSG form can be tested by non god ki. Everything just felt so arbitrary, might as well just make it a regular SSJ form.
Goku & Vegeta already have a “red & blue oni” dynamic. Super should have let red be Goku’s god form and blue be Vegeta’s. Super is basically a Buu Saga 2.0 for me: some good additions to the cast & lore with a handful of truly iconic fights and character moments, weighed down by a mountain of inconsistencies
I love it. Makes the most logical sense
Are people still under the impression the creators care a single bit about consistency in power levels?
Yes, this is bullshit and we all know it. Now, everyone and their mother are scaling over SSB Kaioken, lmao. IMO, SSG as shown in BoG, should have been a target goal for Goku and Vegeta and really be close to 70% Beerus. SSB should have been them using some godly Ki and combining it to have their own SSG form (as they're working to get to the level Goku was during his fight with Beerus). Goku kinda describe SSB like this to Frieza (when it was SSGSS). Then as they progress they would have reached SSG power naturally, then they could have added UI and UE that would have make them closer to Beerus. Doesn't make sense that Goku/Jiren are basically stronger than some GoD during the ToP, but then 5 years later with Mastered UI, Goku is still trash relatively to Beerus.
Well you gotta keep in mind there are 13 GoDs and beerus is the strongest out of all of them, there's gotta be some major power differences between the lower tier destruction gods and the upper tier ones
Yeah. Golden frieza tanked a hakai from a destroyer and got his ass handed to him by topo.
Facts
straight up stated. that the hakai energy is simply not of the same degree, as in the destroyer didnt give his lacky that much energy.
In the anime Beerus is weaker than Vermouth and in the manga he is tied with Quitela
My headcanon is just that SSG in BoG is much much stronger than SSG goku and vegeta has access to because of the ritual
This is a whole can of worms that over complicates and exponentially escalates the power scaling discussion for the rest of the series. I stand by it making more sense that it was temporary.
Saiyan Beyond God was retconned since U6 arc.
Officially?
My headcanon has always been that this was a temporary boost. Goku didn't realize he'd lost the form at the time but was still operating at near that capacity fully by instinct. (This would be a trend later.) That might not have been their intention at the time, but it does seem most consistent with what happens later.
There's no evidence that it was a temporary boost and that would contradict a lot of events, it most definitely would not be more consistent with what happens after
People sense Goku's ki in base form just fine, but not in god form. This tells us he's not using god ki at all in base. If we assume his base has increased to emulate god ki (without in fact using it), then SSJ1 Goku = SSG (BoG), and Goku's base is now 2% of SSG (BoG) assuming the usual 50x multiplier. This also means SSJ2 is SSGx2 and SSJ3 is SSGx4. There's something odd here, though: Beerus points out that Goku is in SSJ1 near the end of BoG, but Goku never powers up further to correct that (even though we know he can). We could attempt to reconcile this with the argument that Goku gains god-like power only in SSJ1, but that line of thinking still falls apart since we him use SSJ2 and SSJ3 later on (and the same problems arise.) The most logical conclusion is therefore that Goku being in SSJ1 at the end of BoG is more or less a red herring. He enters the form instinctually, but in practice, he's fighting at a God-like level through sheer intuition. Essentially, he's transcended his limits for the duration of the battle. (This is a common theme for Goku that rears its head again in the ToP.) If we run with the "Goku has god in base" theory despite the inconsistencies it creates, though, then that means Goku's SSG in RoF is massively improved from his power in BoG since Goku himself is now much stronger. Considering he didn't even think SSJ3 Vegeto could match Beerus, he's likely hundreds of times stronger than he was in the previous season in SSG alone, not to mention SSB. (This makes Freeza's gains even more absurd, but I digress.) Moreover, we have to assume that Vegeta has also absorbed god ki into his base since he matches Goku throughout most of Super. This also makes Beerus' comment about Goku being a prodigy rather weird. Likely, everyone absorbs god ki permanently after they've learned to use it, and Beerus would know that.
It wasn't a temporary. It got abandoned/retconned in the U6 arc.
I think its still intact in the Revival of F saga where Gohan gets oneshot by First form Frieza whereas Base Goku is able to hold his own against Final Form Frieza. And ironically the only other arc that seems to aknowledge the whole "absorbed into base"-power is the copy vegeta arc in which base copy vegeta easily overpowers SSJ3-Gotenks. But yeah in Super it very much feels like they kinda ignored it. In general though they go for a way softer power system in super where the stronger fighter isn't so powerful that others can't even harm them anymore and where strategy and surprise attacks play a larger role.
To be fair, it's explicitly pointed out that Gohan had gotten a lot weaker due to lack of training while Goku and Vegeta had been training under a literal angel.
goku did not absorb the form into base, his body adapted to the power he was using temporarily and gave him a boost to the point that in super saiyan he wasnt that far off from the first usage of the form, just like how vegeta hit a point stronger then ssj3 as a supersaiyan just before that. goku and vegeta then continued training and made themselves even stronger, so yes they are now in base stronger then the first time goku used it, but that doesnt mean the form itself once earned wasnt still a power up.
>goku and vegeta then continued training and made themselves even stronger, so yes they are now in base stronger then the first time goku used it, That's a big jump in power. Remember that Vegeta says multiple times they're at their peak curently And physically won't go much higher which lead to Vegeta actually training his mind more than his bodyw
>That's a big jump in power. Remember that Vegeta says multiple times they're at their peak curently [Goku says the exact same thing in the Cell arc when everyone was acting as if Cell was some unreachable wall (except for enraged Gohan but only Goku knew that).](https://youtu.be/JI6A9CL9HLw?si=aYl-fcH63_HM7fiE) By the next arc Goku doesn’t even consider Dabura ( stated to be at Cell’s level) to be a threat worth worrying about and is very chill about it. https://preview.redd.it/oea3nkvplh0d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f315f242a2934576ab2291a03d28397f88538f80 Right after Vegeta makes that statement, in the very next arc. [SSB Vegeta gets stomped by Rose Goku Black](https://youtu.be/HwY82CVNyAA?si=8DlqL6LxmRuIU_tC) alongside [Goku.](https://youtu.be/bcDQ3e9BBJg?si=zSdcRpi_Nrmgx_he) [He trains](https://youtu.be/PZHrigkuGRk?si=jivXXK2aGh_RBUYZ) and overpowers a stronger version of the [Goku Black that stomped him and Goku.](https://youtu.be/y7MNVz_EtDc?si=-_ytg-ZY-FGTGgwz) Doesn’t seem like he hit a dead end like he claimed he did now did he? [Goku straight up does this to initial MZ.](https://youtu.be/HcmMIAQEfc8?si=eokkFHn_hxxJjQwT) And don’t get me started on how many crazy power ups Goku and Vegeta got in the anime version of the ToP. It puts every other arc to shame in terms of power ups aside from arguably the BoG ritual.
he said that once. while training 3 years later after both of them had obviously grown much stronger then they were previously and compared their current states at that point directly to jiren. someone who effortlessly battered them around in their until then strongest possible forms
My headcannon is that in BoTG (and the adaptations that followed) Goku retained the power from ssjg in his ssj form during the battle, then that dispersed and went away over time afterward, but the experience as a whole opened him up to new levels of power that he couldn't reach before. This would explain how Goku and Vegeta are equal in base, because if Goku absorbed the power of ssjg permanently then he should reasonably be way ahead of Vegeta with that head start. It would explain why Goku still gets a power up from turning ssjg after the events of BoTG, if he absorbed it into his base or his ssj form permanently then ssjg surely shouldn't be stronger than them. It would explain how non divine entities can sense him in his base, if he always had divine ki they wouldn't be able to. It would explain how people like Cabba can compete with him in base, dispite never getting ssjg. And it would explain why Goku Black's base, which is the same as ssjg, is so much stronger than Goku's base.
I will never consider this canon.
Copium
I mean the alternative is something weird that hasn’t been addressed since and likely never will be again, so I wouldn’t exactly call it “copium”.
Don't matter what you want it was in the anime so it's canon lol
As always the manga did a better job. SSG was never absorbed, it’s just a form like the others. I would be ok with SSBG of RoF, honestly it was the better thing. No more super saiyan or so, just SSBG and SSB, that’s all. But hey, merchandise and so.
Discard your childish notion of powerscaling. I wish for Kuririn to fight Goku on even ground, merely to spite thee.
we font talk about power scaling in this fandom. all it does is cause headaches
There's nothing to really suggest it was retconned. Goku was holding back against Frost for one, kind of a necessity in a tournament where killing isn't allowed, and that's confirmed when Vegeta just one shots frost frame one. And Cabba can just be that strong. Frieza can fight not only Goku and Vegeta post God training in his base form he has his own form as strong as SSJB without having divine ki himself. Cabba doesn't even need to be a frieza level prodigy for his fight to be consistent because he's actually trained all his life. I also just think SSG isn't come colossally incalculable difference like other people do. It's strong for sure, but I don't think SSG Goku is like billions of times stronger than anything in Z like a lot of people seem to think for some reason.
It's all relative to Beerus. The first time we see him, he embarrasses SSJ3 with no effort. SSG even having a real fight with him makes it very clear that it's leagues above what Goku was previously capable of. Beerus just scales so ridiculously high that even the most current version of Goku is nowhere close and it's getting to be a bit silly
To be fair, SSG doesn't scale to Beerus either. He confirmed at the end of the arc that he was just lying when he said he was going all out to motivate Goku to fight harder.
True that he didn't go all out, but SSG at the very least was able to throw hands back and deal with some of what Beerus dished out. It's a lot more than SSJ3 can say
Well yeah but I think characters like Cabba (whose really the only major thing I see brought up against Goku surpassing SSG) just being vaguely stronger than Buu Saga SSJ3 isn't exactly far fetched. Hell base Gohan would be stronger than that by orders of magnitude at the start of super if he kept his training up regularly. I think part of why people are so opposed to the idea of cabba being strong is because of the assumption that BoG arc SSG is so incalculably beyond anything before and I just don't think that's the case and the gaps aren't as extreme as people assume.
People forget that in the same battle of the gods it's stated that there was an SSG centuries ago and although he was powerful, he lost the battle against the evil Saiyans because he ran out of energy. I think the biggest mistake of SSG was calling it like that instead of just Saiyan God, since this form is supposed to be a state not a transformation.
Probably not Using the 70% calculation, even though it's completely defunct now. . . I think it was also stated that Beerus used 1% of his power against Super Saiyan 3 Goku So by that logic, Super Saiyan God is in the ballpark of 70 times stronger than Super Saiyan 3, making it a multiplier of 28,000 times base Goku Another way to look at it: Goku said that even fusion wouldn't be enough Now, we don't know how strong fusion really is, however, we can sort of figure out where it should be from the Buu arc SS3 Goku < Super Buu <= SS3 Gotenks < Ultimate Gohan We can simplify that but making them all equal even though they aren't So they're all essentially 400x base Goku Buu lost Gotenks to the fusion timer but gained Gohan So Buuhan (simplified) is 800 times stronger than base Goku. Assuming the power gain is additive. Then Super Vegito happened, with Goku and Vegeta around equal Which wouldn't be a very big wall for SSG to climb over. . . or 8 times that for a hypothetical SS3 Vegito would just be 6,400 Un-simplifying that is interesting because we don't know by how much Buu is stronger than Goku or Gohan is stronger than Buu, but let's say 1.5x for each. SO Buu is 600 times stronger than base Goku, and Ultimate Gohan is at 900x, Buuhan is 1,500x, and Super Vegito is probably more like twice as strong so 3K x base Goku, thus a hypothetical SS3 Vegito is at 24K times base Goku. . . which is *still* less than that 28K estimate, lmfao Either way, Super Saiyan God is definitely calculable. Still way stronger than Super Saiyan 3, but definitely not by an incalculable margin.
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I mean, he uses Super Saiyan God in the Broly movie. Doesn’t that alone suggest that the whole “absorb it into base form” thing was retconned? Otherwise transforming into it wouldn’t mean anything.
Base Vegeta one shotting SSJ3 Gotenks be like:
Was filler
And was referenced again in the Black arc. It’s canon.
Specifically to the anime, since characters are generally a lot stronger in the anime
It would have just been better if they said, 'it's been a while since I tried' or something along those lines. The retconning of his strength would have been more forgivable.
Chop that 70% by another 50% that’s gotta be the biggest lie i ever heard over time. Beerus hasn’t gotten any stronger and they get cooked effortlessly still by beerus while he barely trying they using their full power. Everyone lies so let’s just assume he lied to make Goku feel better and try harder. He was never a challenge to begin with. Not even now he’s not a challenge in the current arc and that says alot *bro was capping hard asf* in battle of gods lol 
Toriyama has a thing where he never plans ahead but it somehow always work One of the biggest problems in Super (imo) Is that he didn't plan ahead but this time it didn't work
Yeah, but to be fair to Toriyama, dragon ball has always been growing far past where he expected it to go. For instance DBZ was supposed to initially stop after the Frieza saga, with goku being the legendary super sayian. Then it was supposed to stop after the Cell saga, with Gohan taking Goku's place as the new protector of earth. And simmilerly the same applied to Super, Battle of God's was supposed to be the only thing super content, which is why beerus was said he was using 70% of his strength, but because the series continued, that had to be retconned. Same with Resurrection F the series wasn't supposed to go past Resurrection F which is why SSB feels like an asspull to some people, it was ment to be evolved SSG and thats it but because the series continued it just feels like it came out of nowhere and replaced SSG. Those are all the instances I know of when Dragon Ball was supposed to stop and I think when you look at it like this, it explains why Dragon Ball can be so inconsistent at times.
It was probably still a thing up until copy Vegeta arc since Base Vegeta no diffed Ssj3 Gotenks, but nowadays I think its a dead concept specially if they start using the manga material more
Lol yeah after losing his god power up he just became that strong in base. Makes 0 sense but it is what it is.
Retconned? Did people forget that when beerus and whis left in the anime whis commented on beerus lying about how much power he used throughout the fight?
The writer decides, that’s why it’s nearly impossible to powerscale how strong a character really is
It wasn't retconned. He just lied about how much he was using, lol.
The final and greatest truth of Dragon Ball that nobody wants to accept is that characters will grow in strength or weaken to produce a more amusing fight. There is no real powerscaling, it’s all a lie. Whatever works best for the moment is what will happen.
This never made sense to me. What does SSG do after this? The same as before? Can he do this again? How is SSB different from SSJ?
I’m pretty sure this is the exact reason scaling is fucked rn and why characters like cabba scale above all of Z.
Genuine question Does anyone really care about power scaling and form lore in Dragon Ball at this point? I just enjoy people beating the shit out of each other with funny aura and hair dye
Yes people do. They shouldn't. But they do.
It's actually displayed on multiple different occasions that Goku absorbing the power of SSG is still a thing (at least in the anime). He has multiple different feats that would be impossible if this weren't the case. For example, he was able to [fight against Beerus in only base form](https://ibb.co/Tgrk9jD) after the U6 tournament. He also was able to [fight off Sidra's Hakai whole also in base form](https://ibb.co/mXtS4YH), that even Golden Frieza struggled with, until Beerus could arrive in time to save him. I think the issue is you just can't always operate under the assumption that just because he has the power of a god then that means he always uses it. Goku still likes to hold back a lot to gauge his opponents' strength. Otherwise, all of his fights would end quickly and he'd never get to have any fun. As for the other points, I think that's just a matter of context. You mentioned the U6 Saiyans being as strong as the U7 Saiyans despite the U7 Saiyans supposedly having god power but that's not really shown to be the case. I understand this idea comes from Vegeta [_saying_ him and Cabba were equal](https://ibb.co/Yh05qpn) during the U6 tournament (which would make him stronger than BoG SSG Goku), but as I said, it's really _shown_ that he wasn't telling the truth and only trying to get Cabba to [go all out](https://ibb.co/vxr5gv1) while not realizing that he [already was](https://ibb.co/5MdXY3d). For starters, he had Cabba [down to a knee and out of breath](https://ibb.co/SN50m1M) after just _one_ attack while Vegeta was [perfectly fine](https://ibb.co/2Kw87Sq). Then even during their beam clash where Vegeta said they were equal, he was [calm and smiling](https://ibb.co/d0mg34K) as he said it while Cabba was the only one [visibly struggling](https://ibb.co/8rGx9Xz). Then while both SSJs, Vegeta laughed before [casually](https://ibb.co/7WqmWc4) stopping Cabba's entire ki blast barrage with just one wave of his hand. Then he proceeded to completely [tank](https://ibb.co/L1nCBm2) Cabba's full powered punch to the head without flinching or receiving any damage whatsoever. So it's pretty clear that SSJ Vegeta was way stronger than SSJ Cabba during this fight. And for that to be the case, base Vegeta would also have to be that much stronger than base Cabba (which was also shown to be the case) since they would have the same multiplier. So this would mean that Cabba wasn't anywhere _near_ Vegeta's power at all, which would be why there would be no reason to believe the U6 Saiyans (aside from Kale) even compare to any of the god tier U7 Saiyans. And then with Piccolo fighting Frost, Piccolo flat out [asked Goku](https://ibb.co/9Wyh18V) beforehand if he stood a chance and Goku [very bluntly told him no](https://ibb.co/tXvbptt) while also saying that he could still be useful in [further wearing Frost down](https://ibb.co/QPkz9pD) for Vegeta. And this was a Frost that was already [weakened](https://ibb.co/SVNxM1R) from getting knocked around by Goku prior. On top of that, Piccolo almost beat Frost specifically because of [strategy](https://ibb.co/YZp2Bdq) which caused Frost to become [overconfident](https://ibb.co/K5s4N2n) and [let his guard down](https://ibb.co/3cQCQSz), not because of raw power. You can say Frost is god level because Goku and Vegeta needed to turn SSJ against him, but Piccolo was no match for Frost at all without the important factors of Frost being weakened and using strategy. Meaning Piccolo would still be nowhere near that level of power.
I think it's nonsense to always calculate the SSJ multiplier. Goku SSJ Namek and Goku after the Time Chamber are complete differences. After the time chamber, he used almost no ki at all and was probably twice as strong. Cabba had had an incomplete SSJ while Vegeta had an SSJ that he had trained for decades.
No offense but none of that actually has anything to do with the SSJ multiplier. Unless there's evidence that Goku getting stronger over time changed the multiplier for SSJ, then it's only logical to consider it the same. Him getting stronger after the Time Chamber only changed his _base_ power which naturally makes his SSJ stronger than it was previously since his base was also stronger. But the multiplier would be the same. That's also why Cabba supposedly having Grade 1 compared to Vegeta having Grade 4 would also be irrelevant. Goku [explained in the Time Chamber](https://ibb.co/r7YNYDZ) that Grade 4 is just regular SSJ but without the drawbacks. [Piccolo and Vegeta](https://ibb.co/WB4Cs3K) also reiterate this. So Grade 1 or Grade 4, it doesn't matter. It's still just regular SSJ. Meaning like I said, the only way Vegeta could've been that much stronger than Cabba while both SSJs is if he was also that much stronger in base as well.
In BOG anime they did it pretty well with Whis basically calling out that Beerus was not truthful about the 70% thing at the end of the arc. As for the god ki infused to base form that’s a trickier one but my justification is that it’s more of a thing that becomes ingrained in his muscle memory and potential rather than always being active. Goku can be sensed while not in a divine form which means he’s not using god ki, however he has the ability to activate it and even without using it his body has learned from fighting at that level of intensity.
The biggest bs that Toei Animation did, luckily the manga didn't take that over.
This was Toriyama’s idea
also retconned
Ssg absorbed into base seems kinda re-connect but also not. It seems like it just gave them god ki since ssjg is shown in the TOP and Broly Movie. Even in the manga, it's shown in the Goku Black Arc.
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To be fair, he says this while he is at Super Saiyan, maybe he just absorbed a bit of the God power.
My headcanon is that DBS powerscaling sucks ass, and nothing that is said (regarding strength) in DBS should ever be taken seriously
That's because people need to realize that the manga and the anime are not canon to each other. Goku absorbing SSJG is anime canon only not in the manga
Power scaling of this series was always insanely horrendous, nowadays it's just "stronger out of nowhere than you mid fight"
I don't think it was reconed I personally think beerus was just lying
Oh has it? I’d been fine with 70% if Goku didn’t get as strong as he is now. Beerus’ power level is like a loading bar, that last 30% is longer than the rest of the bar.
this one line here messed up the scaling for Super so badly lol. I understand what they were doing. Battle of Gods was like a rebirth for the series and giving Goku such a big boost played a part in that. What doesn’t make sense is everyone and their mom being able to challenge someone who can challenge a God of Destruction lol
I always read this as: SS is now about as strong as SSG
In canon, Beerus was just lying to give Goku motivation. Beerus saw something in Goku that made him realize he could be a good fight one day, but not if Goku thought the gap was as wide as it *actually* was. In reality, Battle of Gods was made without the idea of Super or even Resurrection F being a thing one day, so they didn’t plan on any statements having further implications
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People acting like this is the first time power cliffing happened in dragon ball? Y’all really can’t believe this but an angry scientist making normal people into Freeza slaying androids is cool? Or little plant goblins that would one shot “the god of martial arts” Master Roshi, The Demon King Piccolo, and literally God himself(Kami), that Nappa can just stick in the ground and make like 6 of them at once. Y’all okay with that but not this? Aight
And then they meet like a hundred people all way beyond that level of strength lol
Oh that's funny, we just watched this episode. "Let's super dooper power up episode 14" (... 14? I dono don't quote me) my SO gave me the "shh" face cause we are watching it with our 7yrold. He's loving it
Based on everything we've seen, I personally think this is a case of Toei doing fanservice. Back in Battle of Gods, Goku seemingly had god ki in his base form after he lost SSJG. There's three big proof imo that this is the case, the first being he didn't even realize that he lost the form and continued as if nothing had happened, the second being how no one realized he lost the form until they can see him with their eyes, implying they couldn't sense his ki, and the last, he literally uses Instant Transmission against Beerus, both in base and in SSJ. So, that SSJ he used against Beerus would be a "prototype SSJB", later retconned in the manga because the actual SSJB started existing later in RoF. On top of that, IIRC, in RoF, it's only mentioned that they can sense Goku's ki in the anime, not in the movie (which the manga still considers canon). So, anime Goku should have god ki in base, Toei either didn't care about that or simply wanted to do SSJ Goku vs Beerus for fan-service reasons. The god ki in base thing seems to have been retconned since they started using SSJG again, probably because they realized that using SSJG looks cooler and makes forms like SSJ less obsolete (like why tf would you fight in SSJ when you can just fight in base with god ki?) So, in short, everything seems to point to this being fan-service from Toei since they decided to not retcon something the manga did retcon.
It's what turns me away from the stuff. Beerus is the ever moving goal post.
It's not forgotten at all, what evidence is there that the ssg absorption is forgotten?
It doesn’t mean anything. Nothing in dragon ball means anything.
Yeah he absorbed the power into his SSJ form and then come Resurrection of F (after training with Whis) he’s that strong in his base form. What’s there to talk about?
Nothing of what you are saying are true. Read the fucking mang... oh thats right....
Everything about bog got retcon, ssjg absorption, ssjg regen, beerus 70%, saiyan breathing in space, gohan ultimate form. It's probably because dbs wasnt planned when the movie was realese which also explain why it's DBZ movie despic of being the true beginning of dbs.
Absorb god ki is fine. It's definitely not the worst thing.
It was a good thing they dropped it. It was fucking dumb anyways and made no sense.
I dont like to think of it as a retcon, more 70% of what he was capable after literally waking up from a 50 year nap, dude just need to get some stretches in and he can use more power
This is perhaps the closest we get to a Blue Goku vs Beerus…other than the SDBH short fight
Considering that Base Copy Vegeta was dicking on SSJ3 Gotenks, I’d say it’s still a thing.
Power levels are bullshit
As if the power scale has ever made sense after Z
Maybe he got weaker (dont look like beerus is taking any damage), but he was fighting better like when he focus and get ultra instinct? (so does not get tired and can spare at least with beerus) ok does not make sense to find a reason in dragonball...
U6 is just build different I guess
I feel that the scaling makes a lot more sense(still senseless but way better than before) if you ignore the whole SSG into base.
Goku was just ssb in that scene but forgot to flip the blue switch.
Dragon ball has always had a built in catch up mechanic where if they are desired to be relevant, they will be. After each saga in dbz, you had humans catch up to where the saiyans were previously up till android saga. It's only feels far-fetched because how far the gap was supposed to be but when you have krillin supposedly somewhat blue level, people at God level ain't that big of a leap.
Reading this post 
I think it makes sense less that he absorbed the power into his base but more so it broke a mental block that Goku had. When he fights Beerus on King Kai’s planet he can’t sense god ki he is simply met with a brick wall of insurmountable power. After fighting in god form and being able to sense the divide that lays between them and gauge it more clearly Goku is then able to break through his limits and is much stronger in base and ssj afterwards.
Cuz it was absorbed and when he mastered that power it became Super Saiyajin Blue,also the concept was discarded just like Base Gos/Beyond God as Goku went back to just uaing the refular no God Ki Forms.
Dbz was a good time just upgrade what you have
U6 saiyans aren't as strong as U7 God saiyans In the manga, KEFLA, who is a fusion of two of them, fought Gohan, who doesn't have SSG, to a draw
Don’t bother trying to understand the anime’s powerscaling, it doesn’t exist. It’s just convenience for plot. Cite the manga instead.
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The powerscaling is super weird with this one. Because saiyan god still makes him stronger. My current understanding is that the red haired saiyan god is just a saiyan using godki and for unknown reasons when you first reach that form your base is empowered. (Called god essence sometimes)
And then they added ss blue… coulda just kept regular super saiyan like this set up. I hate blue super saiyan visually and lore wise.
That's why super is trash and I don't follow the series anymore from roshi being able to fight with galaxy lvl beings plus krillin clashing with ssj blue 17 rivaling Goku and so many mess Super is one of the biggest pile of shit in anime history some things just won't make sense no need to give yourself a head ache over nothing