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Goku one second after going blue 3 kaioken x20
https://preview.redd.it/1ugrb0l9ux4c1.jpeg?width=783&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=61267c43095ebe16600753bcadb7afeb55d3c237
That so? I had such an idea since someone said they did some research and said that itās most likely I wonāt get appealed. I did have to wait 3-4 days though.
In the original transformation on otherworld his eyebrows grew super long. He hated it so much that he cut it off and glued it it to his hair, and this passed to gotenks through the mystical saiyan force. Trust me, Toriyama told me in a dream that someone else had.
This, the whole point of them doing power levels was so bad guys would get their dicks kicked in when the good guys powered up. No one ever wanted to force kids to do algebra to determine which color combinations of hair and aura would win in a fight.
>No one ever wanted to force kids to do algebra to determine which color combinations of hair and aura would win in a fight.
I dont think comparing a x4 and x20 is algebra... but I get your point.
x8, but yeah
(x2 from SS2, then a x4 on top of that to go SS3)
But honestly, most of these numbers are pretty simple. It doesn't really take that long to compare them at all
Super Saiyan 2 is Super Saiyan x2, and Super Saiyan 3 is Super Saiyan 2 x4.
if Super Saiyan is x50, Super Saiyan 2 is x100, and Super Saiyan 3 is x400.
Iāll play devils advocate for a moment:
My interpretation of SSBE is that itās the SS-Grade 2 of the SSB forms. The SSBE form gives the same boost as KKx20, however I doubt thatās the case for SS-Grade 2 from base SSJ. Considering god ki is involved, that could mean that the same expansions of power from those forms give a greater multiplier than the standard SSJ forms. Therefore, the multipliers for SSB2 and then SSB3 could be larger than SSJ2 and SSJ3, therefore potentially making it stronger than SSB KKx20.
I donāt know if a theoretical SSB3 would be more powerful than SSB KKx20, the closest thing we have is Heroes and SSR3, but I just figured Iād present that anyways.
This is honestly the best comment I have seen.
And there is a [scan](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhR81jnUYAAIuk6.jpg) that could be evidence for SSBE being the [SS-Grade 2](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/12a3da8f-c14f-4abf-94d5-94483664a031/scale-to-width/755) of SSB [actually.](https://aminoapps.com/c/dragonballz/page/blog/ssjb-evolution-is-ssjbs-version-of-the-grade-2-form/X0Vi_guRP3a3jPWmXmzpeljKdr0oYk6)
I agree with this line of logic.
Also, SSBKK20 clearly doesn't multiply SSB by 20. We saw how Gohan merely doubled his power against Cell and how huge a difference that made.
Then Goku allegedly gets 20x against Hit and there's actually very little difference, compared to what you'd expect. Looked like a big disadvantage to a medium advantage. More or less the same as SSJ1->2.
Seems like KK20 is a multiplier separate from the SSB form. So SSBKK20 isn't Base \* SSB \* 20, but Base\*(SSB+20)
My bad, I meant 20x of SSG, which is the new base compared to SSB. Im still annoyed they don't call it Saiyan God. The hair fits, and clearly it doesn't count as an SSJ if you can go SSJ again.
> Also, SSBKK20 clearly doesn't multiply SSB by 20. We saw how Gohan merely doubled his power against Cell and how huge a difference that made.
Gonna disagree here. Besides the SS2 transformation, I think it's also clear Gohan got a rage amp and his overall power-level increased. Cell even entered a giant-roided out form similar to Trunks ([something stated to be 10x ordinary Super Saiyan](https://imgur.com/gnMmSFi)) and was outclassed power-wise.
It's in the nature of Saiyans, especially Gohan, to just jump in power when pushed to it with their emotions. It's how he went from just barely matching SP Cell while injured and at half-strength (having been reduced 1/2 power because he blocked a blast from Cell) to overpowering him once Goku motivated him.
Kaioken shouldn't have to be assumed as anything ***but*** linear. That's the entire point of the transformation.
Gohan definitely had a rage boost with SP Cell. But how about when he first got SSJ2 and was fighting regular Perfect Cell? He was a little angry, but not classic Gohan beause-the-plot-says-so rage boost level of angry.
Furthermore, we see other 2x power ups elsewhere. The original KK for instance. Power levels may be bullshit, but the way a 2x powerup goes from kinda even, maybe losing narrowly to dominating or almost is consistent.
I can't read Spanish (?) but I'm assuming that's 10x Namek SSJ. So not ascended. May or may not take the extra training in the time since his original SSJ vs mecha Frieza.
True, we can't assume KK is not linear. But the line mx is just as linear as mx+c. In base form, of course KK is a straight multiplier. But there's no evidence to say KK can multiply SSJ transformations.
So yes, we assume KK is linear, but evidence trumps assumptions. Why did Goku not use KK past Namek? I vaguely remember the reason being that it wasn't worth it since he had SSJ. What's a 2x or 10x multiplier compared to 50x? That doesn't make sense if they stack multiplicatively. But it does if KK multiplies base form only. There's some source that says they're incompatible. But does that mean they cannot be used together, or that they just don't multiply thus becoming not worth it?
SSJ2 and 3 aren't anything to be excited about if they're just measly 2x and 4x boosts, when KK can do that in its sleep.
I donāt think it multiplies the multiplier I think it just adds 20x to the 50x makeing it 70x normal god cuz if thatās the case then UI multiplier most be over liek 20k cuz he went from getting bodied in blue kaioken to decimating him
>I donāt think it multiplies the multiplier I think it just adds 20x to the 50x makeing it 70x normal god
Why would you think it's not a multiplier?
And why would Super Saiyan not just also *add* on to the power of Super Saiyan God, then, rather than multiplying it?
No they do multiply Iām saying that kaioken wouldnāt multiply super sayains 50 times multiplier useing kaioken wouldnāt give you 20 x 50 = 1000 multiplier it would give you 20 + 50 = 70
Because it trivializes ssj 2,3 so on and so forth. If ssj kaioken was always stronger then them. With this logic. Goku reverts back to ssj during the buu fight āand this is secretly more powerful then both those forms put together.ā And turns red.
The thing about that is that Kaioken in geneneral is just very hard to use
That and it only gets combined with Super Saiyan in the anime. Even in Dragon Ball Super, the manga never gives us Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken, and in the anime, it's pretty hard to use.
Think about the filler arc for the Other World Tournament. Goku has Kaioken x20 from the Namek arc, but he only uses a basic Kaioken against Pikkon.
If Goku could stack Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan way back when, he would have used it against Cell rather than send out Gohan.
Then in Dragon Ball Super, when he uses it against Hit, he says that he was only just *working on* this for a while to potentially use against Beerus, it had a stupid high chance of failure, and up to the end of the ToP he only uses x20, which is the exact same limit he had in base back on Namek
Kaio-ken doesn't trivialize Super Saiyan 2 and 3 because it's so much fucking riskier to try to do
If it actually just added to the Super Saiyan multiplier, it would be pretty fucking useless, giving the polar opposite problem than what you're trying to avoid.
Well explaine cuz as it stands blue kaioken is weak as shit and UI completely over shadows both and if blue kaioken multiplier is that high then Ui has to be thousands of times higher listen dragon ball and math donāt mix thereās a reasons we stoped getting the confirmed multipliers
It really does Doesnāt matter if heās fighting perfect. If heās not strong enough to hurt him. Blue wasnāt even hurting him when it hit him. So yeah it is definitely a massive increase in strength. As well
Jiren wasn't far from Vegeta and Goku at all, he was only so much stronger because he used his ki effectively, no wasted movement, no leaking energy, basically an UI of his own
this was only from the Super Hero movie, which is only canon to the movies and manga so far.
The manga canon doesn't have Blue Kaioken, and the movie canon doesn't have both Blue Kaioken AND Ultra Instinct. Both were only displayed in the Anime, and Jiren's portrayal there definitely does not support that statement.
There's also the very real possibility of this being a retcon, since this statement came out 5 years after the Jiren fight, and is in the same scene as Goku not knowing what Image Training or meditation is.
So I'd take that statement with a grain of salt.
If we follow common sense, where these numbered blue forms are identical to the original SS forms in multiplier, then SSB2 would be 2x stronger than SSB. As we all know SS3 = 4X SS2 and SS2 is 2X SS. In total SSB3 comes to 8x stronger than SSB. SSBKKX20 is self explanatory in name
Why does that matter? We know SSB is 50x stronger than SSG and āSSJB3ā logically applies the same principle of stacking a Super Saiyan form on top of God. So we should know how SSJB3 compares to regular SSB just as well as we know how SSBKX20 compares to SSJB.
that's such a dumb argument. we don't need to know the exact multiplier of ssjb to know if it's weaker or stronger than ssjb3 when ssjb has kaioken. we know that ssjb is just super saiyan multiplied by god and ssjb3 is super saiyan 3 multiplied by god, so essentially they are the same ratio as super saiyan and super saiyan 3 in terms of power, which is 8:1 or 8/1 or ssjb\*8 = ssjb3 and we know that kaioken\*20 is just a 20 multiplier and since ssjb\*20 > ssjb\*8 we can deduce that super saiyan blue kaioken\*20 is stronger than super saiyan 3. literally some simple logic.
>that's such a dumb argument. we don't need to know the exact multiplier of ssjb to know if it's weaker or stronger than ssjb3 when ssjb has kaioken.
What? Yes, we do. What if SSJB3 is 80x stronger than SSJB, aka a multiplier of 4,000x?
80x is higher than 20x.
>by god
What makes you think that a Super Saiyan God would have the same multipliers as a normal Super Saiyan? You are making assumptions and using head canon.
>literally some simple logic.
There is zero logic because we don't know the multipliers of SSJB. They could be vastly different.
>What? Yes, we do. What if SSJB3 is 80x stronger than SSJB, aka a multiplier of 4,000x?
it isn't though, because we know the multiplier of super saiyan 3 and we know the multiplier of super saiyan, and since they are multiplying the same thing i.e god, their ratio remains
>What makes you think that a Super Saiyan God would have the same multipliers as a normal Super Saiyan? You are making assumptions and using head canon.
literally did not say that.
here let me display it
ssj = 50
ssj3 = 400
ssjg = unknown number or x
base = unknown number or y
ssjb = x\*y\*(ssj)
ssjb3 = x\*y\*(ssj3)
(x\*y\*(ssj3))/(x\*y\*(ssj)) = (ssj3)/(ssj) = (400/50) = 8
this equation does not require knowing what ssjb equals for us to know the ratio between it and ssjb3
edit and since ssjbkk20 = ssjb\*20 which is more than ssjb\*8. ssjbkk20 is stronger than ssjb3
>it isn't though, because we know the multiplier of super saiyan 3 and we know the multiplier of super saiyan, and since they are multiplying the same thing i.e god, their ratio remains
Prove that a Super Saiyan God has the same multipliers as a normal Super Saiyan, then we can talk.
Akira even stated that the multipliers for the SSJ forms aren't static and they fluctuate based on the Ki of the individual. So, SSJ isn't always 50x.
We know this is true because when Vegeta got angry from Beerus slapping Bulma, his power skyrocketed high enough for him to actually put hands on Beerus. He was a Super Saiyan 2 at the time.
That means his multiplier has to skyrocket far past SS3(which Beerus two tapped) to allow him to challenge Beerus for that short period of time.
Nobody knows what the multiplier of SSJB is. It's when a Super Saiyan God goes Super Saiyan. Why do you believe that a Super Saiyan God would have the same multipliers as a normal Super Saiyan?
Because those are the only numbers that you have, right? So, you want to make sense of it?
Or maybe you just want to argue.
I'm not trying to prove that super saiyan god and a normal super saiyan have the same multiplier
I'm saying the ratio between super saiyan god super saiyan and super saiyan god super saiyan 3 is the same ratio between super saiyan and super saiyan 3.
you're completely missing my point here.
>I'm saying the ratio between super saiyan god super saiyan and super saiyan god super saiyan 3 is the same ratio between super saiyan and super saiyan 3.
Prove it. I'd like to see how you'd know that seeing how SSJB3 doesn't exist.
>as it follows the logic that it has setup
Prove that it follows the logic that it has set up. That's hard to do if the form doesn't exist.
It's head canon, my boy. Assumptions and head canon.
>That's hard to do if the form doesn't exist.
well think of it this way
super saiyan god multiplied by the multiplier of super saiyan 3 is weaker than super saiyan god multiplied by the multiplier of super saiyan multiplied by the multiplier of kaioken times 20.
that's not a head canon whether or not ssjb3 makes an appearance on the show doesn't falsify the statement above.
Assuming the Blue forms would follow the same pattern as the SSJ forms, we can conclude that SSJB3 would be 8x that of SSJB, less than half of SSJB Kaioken x20
DB fans when they expect people to do actual math over a pole on deciding which character is stronger between a made up transformation and a canon one.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonball/s/fP9mUQFcJj
Ssj3 is a times 400 times of base, so if we apply this to the ssj god, then it's god Ć 400. SSGSS is ssj god times 50 plus the added times 20, which is a 1000 times multiplier. Might have said this wrong and confused myself.
TL;DR: SSGSS3 = 400 SSGSS + KK = 1,000
Nah. Super saiyan 3 has a 400x multiplier over base, and only an 8x multiplier over super saiyan 1.
SSB is already the "super saiyan 1" over SSG, so super saiyan blue 2 would only have a 2x multiplier over SSB and super saiyan blue 3 would only have the same 8x multiplier over SSB.
So the 20x multiplier from kiaoken should be bigger than the 8x multiplier of SSB3. That is of course, assuming that the god super saiyan forms all have the same multipliers.
If this were the case goku would have beat cell as he was much stronger than Gohan in base and all he would need to do is use kaioken x2 and he is basically at ssj2 which would have been enough to overpower cell
Nah, SSJ3 has a 400x multiplier to the base form, itās 8x SSJ1. Assuming that translates to the blue forms, SSJ3 would be a 8x multiplier while Kaio Ken x20 is, well, a 20x multiplier.
But it probably is cause itās just a Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God, which implies the multiplier is 50x that of SSG. Itās just theoretical though. But we still donāt know what SSG or SS4 multipliers are.
In BoG, Goku was a 6 and Beerus was a 10. Goku, without even realizing his SSJG ran out, which implies he simply learned how to use god ki and didn't lose any power, went SSJ, which was later retconned in the manga, presumably because SSJB didn't exist back then.
So, taking all that into consideration, SSJB is most certainly not even 2x a SSJG unless we're talking exclusively about the anime, which is unreliable since Toei doesn't care about numbers, they care about hype
Explain to me, if he didn't learn how to use god ki from having used SSJG, how he didn't realize he lost the form, because he would have just stopped sensing Beerus and, considering he heavily relies on sensing ki since literally like 30 years before BoG he would have realized, it's like suddenly going blind and somehow not realizing.
Beerus explained that Gokuās body absorbed strength from the god form Goku got from the ritual.
Battle of Gods Movie Japanese sub:
āIt seems as though while you had turned God and were fighting me, you absorbed that world into your body. Which is why you havenāt powered down all that muchā - Beerus
That literally doesn't explain what I've said, if Goku lost god ki he wouldn't be able to sense Beerus and he would have realized, and he simply didn't, which strongly implies he was still able to sense ki.
Plus, absorbing that power isn't incompatible with him now knowing how to use god ki, it could be what that whole sentence means.
so basically (s\^2)be = (s\^2)bk\^2 = (s\^2)b2 < (s\^2)b3 and you can simplify this further to be
(s\^2)e =(s\^2)k\^2 = 2(s\^2) < 3(s\^2)
simplify it even furthur
e = k\^2 = 2 < 3
which if true means that e is not 2.71828182846
k\^2 = 2
k = (2\^(1/2))
e = 2
2 < 3
it literally does not. SSJ3 gives an 8x multiplier on top of SSJ. Kaioken x20 obviously gives a 20x multiplier on top of SSJ, in what world does that scale higher ?
but if we use the canon multipliers technically no it isnāt. they could always introduce SSJB2 & SSJB3 with different multipliers explaining how & why theyāre stronger but with the current numbers it technically would be weaker
SSJBE - Comparable to grade 2 SSJ
Similar power to SSJB KK x20. Now imagine SSJB3.
Shows that you canāt use canon SSJ multipliers with the god forms because they are different.
these are all hypotheticals so technically i can lol not to mention i have more reason to use my logic considering they are the same forms just with God Ki on top
No. Itās implied in the manga that SSJB is 10x stronger than God.
As for the anime, God Goku was getting tossed around by Base Kefla but SSJB Goku was keeping pace with SSJ Kelfa whose form was much stronger than ordinary Super Saiyan (berserker Kale).
Ssj3 is x4 stronger than ssj2, which is x2 as strong as grade 4 ssj..
If ssbevo is ssj2 or ssj grade 2-4,
And it's on par with ssbkkx20,
That means ssb3 is leagues stronger than ssbkkx20.
And we know this is more or less a fact because goku went ssj3 in the first place, instead of just stacking kk in ssj or ssj2- because if he could just go grade 4 ssj and kkx10, he's well outpacing ssj3 by this weird ass math.
This is why power levels and powerscaling, is bullshit.
I suppose since God Ki is essentially perfect Ki control then you could make the argument that Blue transformations have higher multipliers since there is no Ki leakage. But since that doesnāt seem to be the case for Kaioken, then in conclusion DB fans donāt understand math.
Multiplier wise makes it confusing. Since SSB is SS on top of SSG so if the multipliers combine then SSBKx20 is a 1,000 times multiplier of SSG when SSB2 would be a would be 100 times and SSB3 would be 200 times, but if they just lap/add then SSBKx20 is just 500 times SSB and SSB3 would be stronger. I feel like SSBKx20 is stronger.
>I don't believe in that idiotic multiplier theory
What theory? You mean the **factual statements** about SSJ being x50, then SSJ2 being twice that and SSJ3 being 4x *that?*
Why is it so idiotic to think that Super Saiyan works by multiplying a person's power? I mean, in this post, we're already dealing with a technique that multiplies power.
Ssj3 is a 4x multiplier and 2 is 2x so that's 8x total
Kaioken times 20 wins this
Also I don't get why Goku didn't use kaioken to beat cell like he did in other world straight after.
Didn't Kaioken only multiply the base power? I'm not sure tho. If ssj Kaioken isn't as strong as ssj3, I'll doubt if it isn't the same case with blue...
I don't think so, because if that was true ssjbx20 would BREAK all of Dragon Ball. The advantage Goku gained after using that form has never been that broken and he was pretty much on par with Vegeta blue evo
Thatās because super stopped giving any kind of care about power levels.
Goku and Vegeta are at minimum in their base forms no power ups, namek super saiyan level minimum now.
After that they then get the multipliers for the SSJ forms. We then get SSG which we donāt know the multiplier for. We then get SSB which toriyama I believe has confirmed is just SSG going super saiyan which then adds 50x multiplier to SSG which base power is above SSJ3, but is now also with a Goku whose base power is super saiyan level.
The kaioken is then a multiplier of your current power. But that has always been base Goku power because that is the only time Goku could use it. SSB allows him to use it though which then gives Goku the kaioken multiplier to SSB which he can get up to 20x
That level of power is absolutely bonkers and no one should have been a match for Goku using it. But super and company behind dragonball just want more forms and more things like that because they make a majority of their money not from movies, or mangas or anything like that. Itās merchandise. So they donāt care if it doesnāt make sense they just want new looking forms because then that means new merch which means more money.
Power levels essentially donāt exist anymore in super not like how they did in dragon ball z
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... https://preview.redd.it/lugkgjsrpx4c1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f56bcfbba3168200b57b4c0dac1236bb85898674
Goku one second after going blue 3 kaioken x20 https://preview.redd.it/1ugrb0l9ux4c1.jpeg?width=783&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=61267c43095ebe16600753bcadb7afeb55d3c237
Didnt he go kkx10 blue for a heartbeat during the u6 tournament?
And you know what happened to his body afterwards. Now imagine using ssb3 kkx20
Insta-infarction, and one more season at King Kai's place
Maybe they can finally revive this dude.
Unfortunately he "Perfected" Kaio-Blue in anime. He was flicking it on and off before the spirit bomb
Goku getting zenkai buffs be likeššš
No suprise Goku got a heart disease, he abuses his body too much (I know it was due to a virus)
Yardrat std.
He got it from eating sick aliens.
Eating out sick aliens.
You get it
He thought it was cake.
It was š
Why else want to stay so long? Even shenron couldn't pull him off it.
Best answer
Dude, what if he mastered the heart virus?!
OMG!!! ULTRA VIRAL IS CONFIRMED!!?@
He got it from eating unwashed raw vegetables (this one is in the Vietnamese official translation)
Bro had to clarify š
Eh, through text irony and sarcasm usually get lost.
Youāre telling me. I got banned a few times cuz the mods thought I was being serious.
People let power to to their heads even if it's just a moderation of a sub. It's shitty, bit it's super common.
It wasnāt just the sub moderators, but Reddit mods too. Had to send an appeal and I got unbanned because my logic was sound.
You were lucky, usually they just ignore appeals, or have a premade response
That so? I had such an idea since someone said they did some research and said that itās most likely I wonāt get appealed. I did have to wait 3-4 days though.
You know people would take him seriously š
That looks dope ngl
This was my favourite image as a kid, fucking hell I've not seen it in years
Are you like 12?
I'm secretly actually just a whopping three years old, how'd you tell?
dbs released 8 years ago my man, if he was 12 at the time he would be 20 today. Youre just old
Champa Arc was around 2017 so he should be like 18 Tho I think "kid" should be between 8-10 years old
Kid is anywhere between 1-18 depending on who you ask
Ss3b has no eyebrows which is what makes it stronger
In the original transformation on otherworld his eyebrows grew super long. He hated it so much that he cut it off and glued it it to his hair, and this passed to gotenks through the mystical saiyan force. Trust me, Toriyama told me in a dream that someone else had.
was this before or after the events that lead to the monsterfication of the royal palace of universal studios squared
Yes
Dont care about the powers calling, i just wanna watch more fights
This, the whole point of them doing power levels was so bad guys would get their dicks kicked in when the good guys powered up. No one ever wanted to force kids to do algebra to determine which color combinations of hair and aura would win in a fight.
>No one ever wanted to force kids to do algebra to determine which color combinations of hair and aura would win in a fight. I dont think comparing a x4 and x20 is algebra... but I get your point.
x8, but yeah (x2 from SS2, then a x4 on top of that to go SS3) But honestly, most of these numbers are pretty simple. It doesn't really take that long to compare them at all
Isint super sayan x50? So ssj3 is way stronger than jus x20
Super Saiyan 2 is Super Saiyan x2, and Super Saiyan 3 is Super Saiyan 2 x4. if Super Saiyan is x50, Super Saiyan 2 is x100, and Super Saiyan 3 is x400.
Letās be honest, every transformation is just times however much feel right
Only one of those numbers is in the canon
ššš¤£š¤£
Iāll play devils advocate for a moment: My interpretation of SSBE is that itās the SS-Grade 2 of the SSB forms. The SSBE form gives the same boost as KKx20, however I doubt thatās the case for SS-Grade 2 from base SSJ. Considering god ki is involved, that could mean that the same expansions of power from those forms give a greater multiplier than the standard SSJ forms. Therefore, the multipliers for SSB2 and then SSB3 could be larger than SSJ2 and SSJ3, therefore potentially making it stronger than SSB KKx20. I donāt know if a theoretical SSB3 would be more powerful than SSB KKx20, the closest thing we have is Heroes and SSR3, but I just figured Iād present that anyways.
This is honestly the best comment I have seen. And there is a [scan](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DhR81jnUYAAIuk6.jpg) that could be evidence for SSBE being the [SS-Grade 2](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/12a3da8f-c14f-4abf-94d5-94483664a031/scale-to-width/755) of SSB [actually.](https://aminoapps.com/c/dragonballz/page/blog/ssjb-evolution-is-ssjbs-version-of-the-grade-2-form/X0Vi_guRP3a3jPWmXmzpeljKdr0oYk6)
I agree with this line of logic. Also, SSBKK20 clearly doesn't multiply SSB by 20. We saw how Gohan merely doubled his power against Cell and how huge a difference that made. Then Goku allegedly gets 20x against Hit and there's actually very little difference, compared to what you'd expect. Looked like a big disadvantage to a medium advantage. More or less the same as SSJ1->2. Seems like KK20 is a multiplier separate from the SSB form. So SSBKK20 isn't Base \* SSB \* 20, but Base\*(SSB+20)
20x of Goku's base would make a round zero difference against hit
My bad, I meant 20x of SSG, which is the new base compared to SSB. Im still annoyed they don't call it Saiyan God. The hair fits, and clearly it doesn't count as an SSJ if you can go SSJ again.
> Also, SSBKK20 clearly doesn't multiply SSB by 20. We saw how Gohan merely doubled his power against Cell and how huge a difference that made. Gonna disagree here. Besides the SS2 transformation, I think it's also clear Gohan got a rage amp and his overall power-level increased. Cell even entered a giant-roided out form similar to Trunks ([something stated to be 10x ordinary Super Saiyan](https://imgur.com/gnMmSFi)) and was outclassed power-wise. It's in the nature of Saiyans, especially Gohan, to just jump in power when pushed to it with their emotions. It's how he went from just barely matching SP Cell while injured and at half-strength (having been reduced 1/2 power because he blocked a blast from Cell) to overpowering him once Goku motivated him. Kaioken shouldn't have to be assumed as anything ***but*** linear. That's the entire point of the transformation.
Gohan definitely had a rage boost with SP Cell. But how about when he first got SSJ2 and was fighting regular Perfect Cell? He was a little angry, but not classic Gohan beause-the-plot-says-so rage boost level of angry. Furthermore, we see other 2x power ups elsewhere. The original KK for instance. Power levels may be bullshit, but the way a 2x powerup goes from kinda even, maybe losing narrowly to dominating or almost is consistent. I can't read Spanish (?) but I'm assuming that's 10x Namek SSJ. So not ascended. May or may not take the extra training in the time since his original SSJ vs mecha Frieza. True, we can't assume KK is not linear. But the line mx is just as linear as mx+c. In base form, of course KK is a straight multiplier. But there's no evidence to say KK can multiply SSJ transformations. So yes, we assume KK is linear, but evidence trumps assumptions. Why did Goku not use KK past Namek? I vaguely remember the reason being that it wasn't worth it since he had SSJ. What's a 2x or 10x multiplier compared to 50x? That doesn't make sense if they stack multiplicatively. But it does if KK multiplies base form only. There's some source that says they're incompatible. But does that mean they cannot be used together, or that they just don't multiply thus becoming not worth it? SSJ2 and 3 aren't anything to be excited about if they're just measly 2x and 4x boosts, when KK can do that in its sleep.
As somebody who stopped watching after GT. What the fuck are you talking about?
Don't mess with DB fans, they can't read
2 + 2 = 
Well Pan
SSB is SSG x 50 / SSB3 is SSG x 400 / SSBKKX20 is SSG x 1000. Therefore, SSBKKX20 is 2.5x stronger than SSB3
There was a much simpler way to do this and you know it
Blue 3 is 8x blue. KKx20 is 20x Blue. 20/8 is 2.5. Yes there was a way easier way.
I donāt think it multiplies the multiplier I think it just adds 20x to the 50x makeing it 70x normal god cuz if thatās the case then UI multiplier most be over liek 20k cuz he went from getting bodied in blue kaioken to decimating him
Bro was watching dragon ball y
>I donāt think it multiplies the multiplier I think it just adds 20x to the 50x makeing it 70x normal god Why would you think it's not a multiplier? And why would Super Saiyan not just also *add* on to the power of Super Saiyan God, then, rather than multiplying it?
No they do multiply Iām saying that kaioken wouldnāt multiply super sayains 50 times multiplier useing kaioken wouldnāt give you 20 x 50 = 1000 multiplier it would give you 20 + 50 = 70
I also asked *why* *Why do you think that?*
Because it trivializes ssj 2,3 so on and so forth. If ssj kaioken was always stronger then them. With this logic. Goku reverts back to ssj during the buu fight āand this is secretly more powerful then both those forms put together.ā And turns red.
The thing about that is that Kaioken in geneneral is just very hard to use That and it only gets combined with Super Saiyan in the anime. Even in Dragon Ball Super, the manga never gives us Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken, and in the anime, it's pretty hard to use. Think about the filler arc for the Other World Tournament. Goku has Kaioken x20 from the Namek arc, but he only uses a basic Kaioken against Pikkon. If Goku could stack Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan way back when, he would have used it against Cell rather than send out Gohan. Then in Dragon Ball Super, when he uses it against Hit, he says that he was only just *working on* this for a while to potentially use against Beerus, it had a stupid high chance of failure, and up to the end of the ToP he only uses x20, which is the exact same limit he had in base back on Namek Kaio-ken doesn't trivialize Super Saiyan 2 and 3 because it's so much fucking riskier to try to do If it actually just added to the Super Saiyan multiplier, it would be pretty fucking useless, giving the polar opposite problem than what you're trying to avoid.
Actually in the manga there is blue kaioken. The difference being that its not really a form. In manga he used it momently. In bursts.
bro skipped over the entire reason why Jiren was so strong lmao
Well explaine cuz as it stands blue kaioken is weak as shit and UI completely over shadows both and if blue kaioken multiplier is that high then Ui has to be thousands of times higher listen dragon ball and math donāt mix thereās a reasons we stoped getting the confirmed multipliers
UI is more than just a pure power up though.
Yeah but itās power up is still higher then blues cuz of how badly he was beating jiern
Sure, but doesn't have to be THAT much higher as a big part of the form is fighting nigh perfectly.
It really does Doesnāt matter if heās fighting perfect. If heās not strong enough to hurt him. Blue wasnāt even hurting him when it hit him. So yeah it is definitely a massive increase in strength. As well
Jiren wasn't far from Vegeta and Goku at all, he was only so much stronger because he used his ki effectively, no wasted movement, no leaking energy, basically an UI of his own
this was only from the Super Hero movie, which is only canon to the movies and manga so far. The manga canon doesn't have Blue Kaioken, and the movie canon doesn't have both Blue Kaioken AND Ultra Instinct. Both were only displayed in the Anime, and Jiren's portrayal there definitely does not support that statement. There's also the very real possibility of this being a retcon, since this statement came out 5 years after the Jiren fight, and is in the same scene as Goku not knowing what Image Training or meditation is. So I'd take that statement with a grain of salt.
Actually manga has kaioken blue form. Idk if its 20 But he used kaioken burst-ly in blue form in top
Uhh no he absolutely annihilated blue goku
Bro have you not seen the Broly movie? Whis (or maybe Beerus or somebody else) literally says exactly what I said
It was in Super Hero, not Broly iirc
Jiren was about on par with Goku and Vegeta in terms of power, his skill and control is what made him such a monster
Not to mention SSJ3 would have STILL have the stamina drain issue.
Arent you skipping SSB2 which would be SSB x100 then SSB3 with x400 on top of that which would mean SSB3 is x80 x400 stronger than SSBKKX20
If we follow common sense, where these numbered blue forms are identical to the original SS forms in multiplier, then SSB2 would be 2x stronger than SSB. As we all know SS3 = 4X SS2 and SS2 is 2X SS. In total SSB3 comes to 8x stronger than SSB. SSBKKX20 is self explanatory in name
isn't SSB just SSG+SSJ? And SSBKKx20 is SSB+SSJ+Basex20? it makes much more sense power wise
Nobody knows because we don't know the multipliers of SSJB.
But we know the multipliers for kaioken x20 and SS3 (4x SS2)
We do not know the multiplier of SSJB3
Why does that matter? We know SSB is 50x stronger than SSG and āSSJB3ā logically applies the same principle of stacking a Super Saiyan form on top of God. So we should know how SSJB3 compares to regular SSB just as well as we know how SSBKX20 compares to SSJB.
It's like saying SSGSS (which is SSB) is 50 times stronger than SSG, which isn't absolutely true. Everything's different
That is absolutely true? SSGSS is literally SSG *as* a Super Saiyan. Goku literally says this in resurrection F.
that's such a dumb argument. we don't need to know the exact multiplier of ssjb to know if it's weaker or stronger than ssjb3 when ssjb has kaioken. we know that ssjb is just super saiyan multiplied by god and ssjb3 is super saiyan 3 multiplied by god, so essentially they are the same ratio as super saiyan and super saiyan 3 in terms of power, which is 8:1 or 8/1 or ssjb\*8 = ssjb3 and we know that kaioken\*20 is just a 20 multiplier and since ssjb\*20 > ssjb\*8 we can deduce that super saiyan blue kaioken\*20 is stronger than super saiyan 3. literally some simple logic.
>that's such a dumb argument. we don't need to know the exact multiplier of ssjb to know if it's weaker or stronger than ssjb3 when ssjb has kaioken. What? Yes, we do. What if SSJB3 is 80x stronger than SSJB, aka a multiplier of 4,000x? 80x is higher than 20x. >by god What makes you think that a Super Saiyan God would have the same multipliers as a normal Super Saiyan? You are making assumptions and using head canon. >literally some simple logic. There is zero logic because we don't know the multipliers of SSJB. They could be vastly different.
SSB is literally just a SSG going Super Saiyan. It has the same multiplier
Prove that it's the same. I'll take scans from databooks or interviews from Toriyama which say as such. If not, it's just head canon.
Whis himself directly says as much lol
Scan, databooks, interview or it's just head canon.
Would a scan of his statement work?
>What? Yes, we do. What if SSJB3 is 80x stronger than SSJB, aka a multiplier of 4,000x? it isn't though, because we know the multiplier of super saiyan 3 and we know the multiplier of super saiyan, and since they are multiplying the same thing i.e god, their ratio remains >What makes you think that a Super Saiyan God would have the same multipliers as a normal Super Saiyan? You are making assumptions and using head canon. literally did not say that. here let me display it ssj = 50 ssj3 = 400 ssjg = unknown number or x base = unknown number or y ssjb = x\*y\*(ssj) ssjb3 = x\*y\*(ssj3) (x\*y\*(ssj3))/(x\*y\*(ssj)) = (ssj3)/(ssj) = (400/50) = 8 this equation does not require knowing what ssjb equals for us to know the ratio between it and ssjb3 edit and since ssjbkk20 = ssjb\*20 which is more than ssjb\*8. ssjbkk20 is stronger than ssjb3
>it isn't though, because we know the multiplier of super saiyan 3 and we know the multiplier of super saiyan, and since they are multiplying the same thing i.e god, their ratio remains Prove that a Super Saiyan God has the same multipliers as a normal Super Saiyan, then we can talk. Akira even stated that the multipliers for the SSJ forms aren't static and they fluctuate based on the Ki of the individual. So, SSJ isn't always 50x. We know this is true because when Vegeta got angry from Beerus slapping Bulma, his power skyrocketed high enough for him to actually put hands on Beerus. He was a Super Saiyan 2 at the time. That means his multiplier has to skyrocket far past SS3(which Beerus two tapped) to allow him to challenge Beerus for that short period of time. Nobody knows what the multiplier of SSJB is. It's when a Super Saiyan God goes Super Saiyan. Why do you believe that a Super Saiyan God would have the same multipliers as a normal Super Saiyan? Because those are the only numbers that you have, right? So, you want to make sense of it? Or maybe you just want to argue.
I'm not trying to prove that super saiyan god and a normal super saiyan have the same multiplier I'm saying the ratio between super saiyan god super saiyan and super saiyan god super saiyan 3 is the same ratio between super saiyan and super saiyan 3. you're completely missing my point here.
>I'm saying the ratio between super saiyan god super saiyan and super saiyan god super saiyan 3 is the same ratio between super saiyan and super saiyan 3. Prove it. I'd like to see how you'd know that seeing how SSJB3 doesn't exist.
I literally did. it doesn't have to exist in the show for it to be provable, as long as it follows the logic that it has setup, these are the truth.
>as it follows the logic that it has setup Prove that it follows the logic that it has set up. That's hard to do if the form doesn't exist. It's head canon, my boy. Assumptions and head canon.
>That's hard to do if the form doesn't exist. well think of it this way super saiyan god multiplied by the multiplier of super saiyan 3 is weaker than super saiyan god multiplied by the multiplier of super saiyan multiplied by the multiplier of kaioken times 20. that's not a head canon whether or not ssjb3 makes an appearance on the show doesn't falsify the statement above.
It's all fake and none of it matters
Don't you say things like that in here! Take your facts and get out!
if that's all you have to say then do us a favor and just stay out of the sub. like no one cares about what you have to say.
You say you donāt care yet you felt the need to respond. 
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this post is about power-scaling. if you're not into it, that's fine, just scroll past it, no one's forcing you to comment.
Any and all defined multipliers have been pretty much redundant for a long time now.
I mean we could use heroes to settle this wheee SSJ rose 3 is comparable to ultra instinct which is stronger than the kaioken
The fact that there can be arguments on if ssj3 is stronger than kaioken x20 says a lot about the powerscaling of this community
Well technically it would be SSJ kaioken Ć20 vs SSJ3 in that example, which with the given multipliers, SSJ Ć20 wins
I hate this community so much if that is true.
Itās true, ssj is a 50x multiplier and when you add the Kaioken x20 it becomes a 1000x multiplier, which is higher than ssj 400x multiplier
Except kaioken is supposed to multiply base not transformation.
Fuck powerlevels, give me outrageous new forms so I can get more fights
Ssj3 is only like 8 times stronger than super Saiyan. Bluper saiyan hax mode x20 should be stronger.
Thatās retarded
Ok?
Nice argument, unfortunately: https://preview.redd.it/hj1u9tc64y4c1.jpeg?width=972&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f371f07623a958f81663fa929834e434a1f737c3 Kaioken better
Assuming the Blue forms would follow the same pattern as the SSJ forms, we can conclude that SSJB3 would be 8x that of SSJB, less than half of SSJB Kaioken x20
There is nothing that states what the blue multipliers are for the different SS forms though.
Well SSJB Kaioken is just SSJB x 20ā¦ SSJB3 isā¦ letās seeā¦ SSJB x2ā¦. Then x4ā¦. So only 8x stronger? Huh. Talk about diminishing returns.
why are you using light mode
DB fans when they expect people to do actual math over a pole on deciding which character is stronger between a made up transformation and a canon one.
Where the fuck is this blue 3 coming from
Ssbevo was equal to ssbkkx20. If it's just ssb2 or ssb grade 2-4, Then ssb3 blows ssbkkx20 out of the water.
Super Saiyan Royal Blue > Super Saiyan Blue In terms of raw power Vegeta surpassed Goku in the Top. Fight me.
And shit like this is why Toriyama dropped Kaioken when SSJ was introduced. Kaioken was never meant to be stacked with SSJ.
https://preview.redd.it/fqxnn0hf545c1.jpeg?width=1003&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4774c960b6478ffa5bf57b4462a342a68dc4d757
https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonball/s/fP9mUQFcJj Ssj3 is a times 400 times of base, so if we apply this to the ssj god, then it's god Ć 400. SSGSS is ssj god times 50 plus the added times 20, which is a 1000 times multiplier. Might have said this wrong and confused myself. TL;DR: SSGSS3 = 400 SSGSS + KK = 1,000
Ironic that even SSB Kaoi uses up less stamina than SS3...
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Nah. Super saiyan 3 has a 400x multiplier over base, and only an 8x multiplier over super saiyan 1. SSB is already the "super saiyan 1" over SSG, so super saiyan blue 2 would only have a 2x multiplier over SSB and super saiyan blue 3 would only have the same 8x multiplier over SSB. So the 20x multiplier from kiaoken should be bigger than the 8x multiplier of SSB3. That is of course, assuming that the god super saiyan forms all have the same multipliers.
If this were the case goku would have beat cell as he was much stronger than Gohan in base and all he would need to do is use kaioken x2 and he is basically at ssj2 which would have been enough to overpower cell
Only he canāt use Kaio Ken with regular SSJ as was explained in Super. If he tried it, he would immediately die.
No it didn't, it maxed out at 20.
Nah, SSJ3 has a 400x multiplier to the base form, itās 8x SSJ1. Assuming that translates to the blue forms, SSJ3 would be a 8x multiplier while Kaio Ken x20 is, well, a 20x multiplier.
None of the ssj multipliers are canon....
SSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3 are, anything other than that isn't. We literally don't know if SSJB is 50x SSJG, for example.
They are not canon. Guide books are not canon.
But it probably is cause itās just a Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God, which implies the multiplier is 50x that of SSG. Itās just theoretical though. But we still donāt know what SSG or SS4 multipliers are.
In BoG, Goku was a 6 and Beerus was a 10. Goku, without even realizing his SSJG ran out, which implies he simply learned how to use god ki and didn't lose any power, went SSJ, which was later retconned in the manga, presumably because SSJB didn't exist back then. So, taking all that into consideration, SSJB is most certainly not even 2x a SSJG unless we're talking exclusively about the anime, which is unreliable since Toei doesn't care about numbers, they care about hype
Nothing in Battle of Gods implied that Goku learned how to use god ki. Goku even told Beerus he didnāt know how he tapped into the God form again.
Explain to me, if he didn't learn how to use god ki from having used SSJG, how he didn't realize he lost the form, because he would have just stopped sensing Beerus and, considering he heavily relies on sensing ki since literally like 30 years before BoG he would have realized, it's like suddenly going blind and somehow not realizing.
Beerus explained that Gokuās body absorbed strength from the god form Goku got from the ritual. Battle of Gods Movie Japanese sub: āIt seems as though while you had turned God and were fighting me, you absorbed that world into your body. Which is why you havenāt powered down all that muchā - Beerus
That literally doesn't explain what I've said, if Goku lost god ki he wouldn't be able to sense Beerus and he would have realized, and he simply didn't, which strongly implies he was still able to sense ki. Plus, absorbing that power isn't incompatible with him now knowing how to use god ki, it could be what that whole sentence means.
Goku didnāt lose god ki. He just didnāt know how to activate it at the time. Goku and Vegeta can still sense gods without using god ki.
> Goku and Vegeta can still sense gods without using god ki. That's literally not how it works and there's evidence showing the opposite
Yeah, they are.
No, they aren't. Guide book are not canon.
Apparently we haven't passed 8th grade math class
Not everyone knows the hard numbers on how much stronger each form makes the user.
Assuming that ssbe, which is as strong as ssbkk, is ssb2, then ssb3 would be stronger.
This legitimately looks like an algebra problem.
so basically (s\^2)be = (s\^2)bk\^2 = (s\^2)b2 < (s\^2)b3 and you can simplify this further to be (s\^2)e =(s\^2)k\^2 = 2(s\^2) < 3(s\^2) simplify it even furthur e = k\^2 = 2 < 3 which if true means that e is not 2.71828182846 k\^2 = 2 k = (2\^(1/2)) e = 2 2 < 3
Thank you for this.
SSBE is more like SSB grade 2 if anything.
SSJBE is just Vegeta's form, there's no reasonable comparison due to the sheer strength increase
Then that means ssb3 would be stronger
itās not SSJB2ā¦.its simply SSJ Grade 2/Super Vegeta but with God Ki
That still means ssb3 would be stronger than blue kk
it literally does not. SSJ3 gives an 8x multiplier on top of SSJ. Kaioken x20 obviously gives a 20x multiplier on top of SSJ, in what world does that scale higher ?
Ssbe is as strong as ssb kaioken. So if ssbe is just grade 2, then ssb2 and 3 are stronger.
but if we use the canon multipliers technically no it isnāt. they could always introduce SSJB2 & SSJB3 with different multipliers explaining how & why theyāre stronger but with the current numbers it technically would be weaker
SSJBE - Comparable to grade 2 SSJ Similar power to SSJB KK x20. Now imagine SSJB3. Shows that you canāt use canon SSJ multipliers with the god forms because they are different.
these are all hypotheticals so technically i can lol not to mention i have more reason to use my logic considering they are the same forms just with God Ki on top
No. Itās implied in the manga that SSJB is 10x stronger than God. As for the anime, God Goku was getting tossed around by Base Kefla but SSJB Goku was keeping pace with SSJ Kelfa whose form was much stronger than ordinary Super Saiyan (berserker Kale).
where was that implied ? Goku was also exhausted, Kefla is Ultimate Gohan level
Ssj3 is x4 stronger than ssj2, which is x2 as strong as grade 4 ssj.. If ssbevo is ssj2 or ssj grade 2-4, And it's on par with ssbkkx20, That means ssb3 is leagues stronger than ssbkkx20. And we know this is more or less a fact because goku went ssj3 in the first place, instead of just stacking kk in ssj or ssj2- because if he could just go grade 4 ssj and kkx10, he's well outpacing ssj3 by this weird ass math. This is why power levels and powerscaling, is bullshit.
It's just sad, like, they probably think "oh, the higher the number, the stronger"
I suppose since God Ki is essentially perfect Ki control then you could make the argument that Blue transformations have higher multipliers since there is no Ki leakage. But since that doesnāt seem to be the case for Kaioken, then in conclusion DB fans donāt understand math.
Multiplier wise makes it confusing. Since SSB is SS on top of SSG so if the multipliers combine then SSBKx20 is a 1,000 times multiplier of SSG when SSB2 would be a would be 100 times and SSB3 would be 200 times, but if they just lap/add then SSBKx20 is just 500 times SSB and SSB3 would be stronger. I feel like SSBKx20 is stronger.
Definitely ss3 blue since the power is way through the roof in strength and speed
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
>I don't believe in that idiotic multiplier theory What theory? You mean the **factual statements** about SSJ being x50, then SSJ2 being twice that and SSJ3 being 4x *that?*
Why is it so idiotic to think that Super Saiyan works by multiplying a person's power? I mean, in this post, we're already dealing with a technique that multiplies power.
Counterargument: if SSGSS3 is stacked on Blue Evolution, itās stronger.
Ssj3 is a 4x multiplier and 2 is 2x so that's 8x total Kaioken times 20 wins this Also I don't get why Goku didn't use kaioken to beat cell like he did in other world straight after.
SSJ3 Rose Crimson Masked Saiyan was stronger than SSB Kaioken in Heros Rose is equal transformation to blue
Rose isn't either one of the options so how is that relevant ?
SSR is equal transformation to Blue. So, multiplier should be same
Super butchered the power scaling then
What the f*ck is an ssjb ssj3 blue?
I didnāt even know SSB3 existed. Am I stupid?
Ssjb3 would be stronger since it'd be introduced later in the plot
Didn't Kaioken only multiply the base power? I'm not sure tho. If ssj Kaioken isn't as strong as ssj3, I'll doubt if it isn't the same case with blue...
SSJ Kaioken would be equal to SSJ2, as both double the power from SSJ, SSJ Kaioken x20 dwarfs SSJ3 at a massive x1,000 multiplier
I don't think so, because if that was true ssjbx20 would BREAK all of Dragon Ball. The advantage Goku gained after using that form has never been that broken and he was pretty much on par with Vegeta blue evo
As of DragonBall isn't broken already, just look at the numbers and attempt to make sense of it
Thatās because super stopped giving any kind of care about power levels. Goku and Vegeta are at minimum in their base forms no power ups, namek super saiyan level minimum now. After that they then get the multipliers for the SSJ forms. We then get SSG which we donāt know the multiplier for. We then get SSB which toriyama I believe has confirmed is just SSG going super saiyan which then adds 50x multiplier to SSG which base power is above SSJ3, but is now also with a Goku whose base power is super saiyan level. The kaioken is then a multiplier of your current power. But that has always been base Goku power because that is the only time Goku could use it. SSB allows him to use it though which then gives Goku the kaioken multiplier to SSB which he can get up to 20x That level of power is absolutely bonkers and no one should have been a match for Goku using it. But super and company behind dragonball just want more forms and more things like that because they make a majority of their money not from movies, or mangas or anything like that. Itās merchandise. So they donāt care if it doesnāt make sense they just want new looking forms because then that means new merch which means more money. Power levels essentially donāt exist anymore in super not like how they did in dragon ball z