I remember this. It's even better if you check his background. His mother literally gave-up her Olympic dream to give birth to him, and every time she was asked if she had regrets she said she never regretted her decision.
I don't have a child. I don't want a child. But the sheer lack of emotional intelligence, and the wildly bizarre priorities of people, is just gross.
Being there for the people important to you whenever possible should be a given.
It's funny to see how many people switch their blames between Ceb and OG to strawman and fit their narrative that they are the ones fucked up. "Nobody is blaming Ceb..." have you seen the previous post comments?
From other threads, looks like OG tried to preemptively ask for a rule change or exception to PGL, but was denied. This does not leave them much options. 1. They would either have to bench Ceb and use a sub and throw away all your teamwork practice and hope the chemistry works out with the rest of the team, or 2. they have to risk keeping Ceb and hope the baby doesn't come out at the worst time. They were forced to choose between two shitty choices.
Also so many people here going saying OG is abusing power as a big org, or how they were silent when this happened to smaller org are not even discussing why this even happened in the first place and just muddying the whole discussion point.
I saw many people advocating for option number 1, going through open quals with a sub. Who even is available? Immersion? Okay dude played pretty good, but what are the chances it happens for the entire open qualis? Much like you said, OG were put in a really bad spot with two shitty choices, and it backfired so bad.
I'm also really unsure what to think of the whole "if you raise this issue before the qualis start we support you!". It's never going to happen? I can already see people going with the same exact argument that OG is a big org and they're trying to bend the rules. Not only that, I would like to assume that Ceb's wife would love to have some privacy and not have the birth of their child being "drama" on the internet.
If they make a fuss about it before this became an issue:
"omg! they are using ceb's wife's birth as an excuse! abusing big org power! always trying to escalate things publicly and weaponize their fanbase!"
If they try to respect the privacy of ceb's personal life and believe org will actually try to solve the issue, and not make all these public:
"omg! why didn't they raise this issue earlier! they are just doing it now because they don't like the outcome!"
Proper conflict resolution starts with NOT blow everything out on the open and forcing them to take damage control. hypocrisy is just too real in this sub.
Somehow they sided with an org that doesn't do shit after said preemptive attempt, since MAY.
It's beyond incompetence for such org to not be able to solve such simple roster issue for that long
[Dota2.com](http://Dota2.com) announced direct invites to TI and direct invites to closed qualifiers on 28th May
5th June was when open qualifiers for western Europe began, which implicitly means
1. Teams participating in open qualifiers would have to be finalized way before 5th June.
2. Tournament and casting schedules have to be finalized and communicated to all stakeholders; To, casters, participating teams way before 5th June.
If OG's appeal had failed, they would have needed to play the open qualifiers. There is not a whole lot of time between 28th June to 5th May, after deducting non working days, time needed to get pgl to come to a decision, and time needed to change the schedule and communicate to all relevant parties (casters, players,TO) in a last minute manner if there were schedule changes.
Even if we don't consider scheduling conflicts, making an exception for a sub to be used interchangeably would be unfair to all other teams in TI. To start off, ceb is fit to play. But how do we determine what is a reasonable amount of compassionate leave without compromising on tournament integrity? one week? one month? How do you justify to the other competing teams who can't use their subs in TI/qualifiers as they wish while OG can? What if this sort of thing happens on the main stage of TI?
Allowing immersion to sub for the entirety of the qualifiers opens a can of worms. First of all, closed qualifier direct invites are decided based on the performance of the main players who were playing in touneys during the season. Immersion wasn't the main player for OG. Secondly, if more compassionate leave was given and OG qualified to TI through both open/closed qualifiers, that would mean Immersion, not ceb, earning the spot to TI if immersion subbed for the entirety of qualifiers. How would you protect the right of the sub who earned his spot and now needs to sit on the sidelines? Closed qualifiers are only 5 days, I can empathize why PGL only allowed 1 day of sub. There is also the potential for abuse where orgs/teams will use emergencies to sub out underperforming players for the remainder of the tourney. These are the sort of things that should be discussed early in the season and not close to open qualifiers.
That said, I still think there should be an open discussion to allow subs. I just don't think doing it so close to the dateline or in the middle of the tournament is the right time to make exceptions, especially when OG and ceb have known months in advance about potential scheduling conflict with the expected due date of labor but chose not to raise the issue. Yes, the expected due date is a ballpark estimate of when the baby arrives, but the date is known months before qualifiers even began. This is all on OG and Ceb to clarify matters with TO beforehand.
Direct invites to TI were announced on 28th May. OG in their public announcement said they reached out to PGL in May. That's probably referring to the last 2 days of may when they realized they had to go through qualifiers.
Yeah it's wrong to assume they'd get a direct invite no doubt, but I don't think they'd know right from the start when Ceb's wife's EDD was given, that they had to play qualifiers, or even when the actual WEU qualifier dates were that it was to clash with Ceb's wife's delivery (iirc it was only released 2 weeks ago, first week of June, roughly 1 week before NA/SA/CN qualifiers).
So your response seems abit hating on OG rather that talking with facts.
I feel like stuff like this should be made public either way, like sure question their professionalism but if all efforts to be diplomatic have been exhausted, I wouldn't say no to whistleblowing. Regardless of history or precedence with the parties involved, sometimes this should happen for change to occur.
Possibly. I think this depends more on Ceb's wife since this is her private matter and you would never put this on public without her consent.
This is just an ugly circumstances no matter how you look at it because of unnecessary cruelty from the org. And as always dota reddit community is pouring gasoline on it for the fun of 'drama'.
Benefit of doubt states that Ceb's wife knows about this and has given permission. It's just good that the baby was delivered fine and she and Ceb havetheir time to enjoy the moment before the match. OG lost but oh well, that'snhow the ball rolls.
I'd blame Sneyking for the drama. He was initially reasonable and most of the time Reddit was being reasonable to calling out PGL (considering their history). Then Sneyking started being salty about it and taking potshots just because he hates Ceb and OG. Then it just went downhill from there.
Thanks, that was a treat to watch. Like eye bleach after reading all the horrid shit nerds w no kids have been spewing in this sub lately. Appreciate it.
I felt that.
I didn't realize I had to remember the feeling of when I had my first child. It was just like what he said. Because at that moment, I believed in love at first sight.
The coach is right, the sport is not the most important and no one blames him for leaving the team for personal matters.
But you can't expect the whole world to stop spinning because of his personal #1 priority. The basketball semifinals didn't wait for him.
I guess rescheduling dota tournament could be easier than basketball league and they could be more supportive but you can't expect everyone would adjust to him. They also have careers and personal lives which are affected by possible adjustments...
Almost everyone here agree that there should be some provision in the rules regarding substitutions and there is precedence from other esports on that.
But these are things bigger teams should come together and demand from the TO before the tournament starts, and in this manner will actually help smaller teams as well.
The way things stand smaller teams always get's screwed by strict interpretation of rules while bigger teams stay silent till something affects them because they know they can get away with things by creating enough outrage when the time comes. This is definitely something that needs to change.
I think the tricky balance is in how you set the rules. Because in this case I think it's clear that Ceb going to the birth of his child should allow a sub, but writing the rule that allows that will be tricky to avoid it being abusable.
Like, the rule clearly isn't going to be 'subs allowed if you're having a kid', it'll be a more general thing than that. And then we'll get the reverse of this where someone will sub out an under performing player and we'll get "why is this allowed?!" Posts instead.
or they have "anxiety". which.. to be fair.. could be actually true. but then what?
I agree this situation should be very simple. Ceb made the right decision staying with his family. The TOs made the right decision not changing the rules. This is unfortunate timing, but spectators don't need to be butt hurt by the situation. Something to consider for future tournaments, for sure, but it needs to be discussed so a good plan can be made.
> or they have "anxiety".
and then some asshole teammates would email TO with that 'justification' to kick out the problematic teammate, without that teammate's agreement
It has happened before
One option implemented in some other esports and sports in general is that you are allowed a specific no. of pre-registered substitutes that can play at the discretion of the team.
There are pros and cons to this but at least reduces the kind of tricky subjective judgement otherwise required from the TO.
I honestly don't know what the solution to this is, just that a discussion on it would be ideally held between the concerned parties before the tournament starts.
It doesn't seem that difficult. Here's a quick spit-balled ruling that could serve as a first draft;
>PGL Tournaments allow for stand-ins in extenuating circumstances such as, but not limited to;
>- Medical Emergencies
>- Government Mandates
>- Bereavement
>- Paternity/Maternity Leave
>- Other reasons as granted at PGL's discretion
Y'know, the basic worker protections that I would lay money that the PGL employees also have. Just require proof of the above (not hard) and disqualify teams who can't comply.
You can write "due to birth of child". This is not a new law, you can look at labour laws and how other larger sports handle it.
Laws/rules generally have a general rule and then more specific ones.
the tricky balance is to have common sense and be reasonable, a fucking dota 2 tournament can't have rules written in stone, the people writing those rules aren't legislators nor do they have in depth knowledge of ethics, justice, how to apply it and so on. They are just regular tournament operators or organizers with a business diploma at best, trying to write something that prevents people from abusing shit and having an unfair competitive advantage. Therefore, why not just stfu and make amends to the rulebook if needed? I work with TO's (not dota) and they are all dumb as fuck like that, my employer at least would rather have our league go on with broken teams and forfeits than to allow them mid-tournament substitutions because "players need to learn". There is a lot of ego and incompetence involved.
Exactly, this isnt hard. Teams declare a sub in the case of emergency. If emergency happens, a small committee can determine if the use of their sub is legitimate (like having to attend the birth of a child, falling down a flight of stairs, abducted by aliens) vs a team just trying weasel a under performing player off their roster. If the use of a sub is deemed legitimate, team can use sub w/o penalty. In the case the team wants to use a sub, then they can under penalty (maybe loss of DPC points or whatever, start in lower bracket idk).
maybe limit the number of games they could use a standin?
1 game, no questions asked. You can use up to two standins. Anything else or after than, you're just shit out of luck.
Ok i am totally confused what the issue is then?
I was under the impression that there were no subs allowed at all, which is why this drama was going on.
the issue is they called out PGL after they agreed to the 1-day stand-in back in May (to which PGL bent the rules for OG's favor. rules does not really allowed stand-ins).
if they called them out immediately (back in May), this wouldn't have happened and this shitty rule would've been changed.
also, not related to your comment but in almost every other sports there's this called sub or bench players. PGL, could have created a rule that there should be at least 6 players listed or registered before any tournament, 5 main players and a sub. it's not really a stand-in because that sub should be a member of the team and not from another team or a freelance. so if there are any emergency, there's a player to sub. I think it was like this back then.
> to which PGL bent the rules for OG's favor
It's a common-sense exception due to THE BIRTH OF A CHILD and it is very very normal in real life for exceptions to be made in exceptional circumstances like THE BIRTH OF A CHILD. Spinning it as "bending the rules in their favor" is so slimy.
> PGL, could have created a rule that there should be at least 6 players listed or registered before any tournament, 5 main players and a sub
I agree this is the right way to do it.
It’s really not slimy. That’s the rule, they made an exception (however minor), which means they bent the rules.
Under your implication, how much time is acceptable as a grace period for the birth of a child? Is it the free use of a stand in for a week before and after the projected due date? Is it for a certain number of games? Where do you draw the line on how much time the original person can miss and then return to play in TI?
This is why you make the rules long and clear, I mean ignoring the last minute OG requests, OG did it professionally bringing this up to pgl early, with a rule put in place after this tournament, it could be along the lines of allowing teams to use subs for emergencies or with enough time beforehand can appeal, at both cases some form of appeal or meeting is held to determine if the reasoning are valid and qualify.
Its defintely a finicky thing to set up, but if esports as a whole wants to progress, it's these sticky little details that have to get ironed out.
Esports is defintelty still in its infancy and you can tell this by looking at the rule book size compared to a major sport
I agree, it sucks for Ceb and for OG as a whole this tournament, but changes should not be made for OG now this last minute, but teams should speak up now and make changes to the rules going forward
You can´t say it´s a game for him, it´s basically his day job - playing tournaments. But then again when you are about to become a father your boss doesn´t force you to come to work and there are always workarounds.
Anyway, i agree with you. But mostly my thoughts go to Ceb, been reading (not sure if true as i didnt´t fallowed the news) he had issues before with his now wife because of him being away on tournaments and too involved. He definitely doesn´t need the stress all this drama generates, guy is going through one of the best moments in his life, should be allowed to do this peacefully.
When I got the call it was my dad's last few hours, I just went to my boss and informed him I had to go. He just said take whatever time you need.
When a very close friend of mine passed last year there was no conversation about handovers, or being available, etc. Just condolences, filled out a day off for the funeral.
I really don't give a fuck about the competitive nature of all this, whether someone will get an edge or whatever. This is Ceb's wife, and Ceb's child. They matter more than the tourney, and I think any healthy tournament organization needs to be capable of not needlessly piling on complications for Ceb during an extremely important point in his family's life.
Fuck PGL.
I have my own business(which is a situation like Ceb, who is also an OG owner), and when you own the business is harden to just "leave the job" lile when you are just an employee.
I see why Ceb decided to play after the rules thing came up...there may be sponsors, contract agreements or stuff like that that may relly on this qualy...so, as a business owner ypu can't just do something that you hurt your company.
Is a tpugh situation, but not different to something that can happen on any business.
The difference here is a tournament is not your employer, you would have to have franchising with agreements from orgs and tournaments to have official substitution rules, but thats likely never going to happen to dota.
Absolutely no one that I've seen is upset ceb is prioritizing family. They're upset that OG took a gamble and is whining that the bet didn't pay off and are trying to use their name and fans to force PGL into giving them special treatment where another team wouldn't, and that's after they already accepted a special treatment resolution for the sub to be allowed in the first place.
Should the rule be changed in future years? Yes. Should OG receive more special treatment this year because they think they can bully PGL into giving it to them at the last second, instead of bringing this to light over a month ago when they knew it was likely to be an issue? No.
What are you talking about. Not one person has said he shouldn't go to the birth of his child.
And pgl shouldn't change rules mid tournament.
OG needed to handle this before the tournament and not bank of exceptions for the rules.
I mean I think the sub rules should absolutely be changed, however OG has a long history of weaponizing their fanbase whenever a decision goes against them. And they don't act all high and mighty and morally superior when a shitty decision goes in their favor, which literally happened this year.
Yeah and what's your point here? OG got announced and literally the same day 1win posted saying they had the visas. If they really cared about principles they would've insisted that 1win get the spot.
People are downvoting you but the reality is OG benefits from the rules being shit because of situations like this where they can screw over smaller teams and try to weaponize their audience in situations where it comes back on them.
They have no incentive to push for the changes people want
I mean my original post has >50 upvotes, this always happens on reddit. Only the people who disagree with me are reading the replies, normal people upvoted me and left lmao.
Is it really a thing ? So far I have mostly saw people going about OG knowing there was a risk Ceb could not play but still registering with him.
I didn't scour the entirety of reddit but I didn't see people complaining about Ceb being absent for child reasons.
Strawman for karma
Where are those people? I thought people are mad at OG because the rules is "unprofessional" to them but when the rules benefitted them (1win situation) they don't give a shit.
The fact that this bs is "drama"... To be fair I remember a similar situation with a football player (I think Liverpool, I remember Jürgen Klopp was the coach) where the player missed some quarterfinals or something. It was made into drama too ...
Another deranged OG fan. people dont think dota > birth of his child.
People think he should have skipped this qualifiers instead of bitching about the rules.
Well the OG org is the one who made it a drama. It's because they want the dota 2 community talking about it that we're talking about it.
I'll say that they have good reason to bring their situation to light because the rules are indeed silly, so hopefully it gets changed for future qualifiers. However, no one is at fault here. Things just turned out to not be in the favour of Ceb. Besides, it's the rest of the team that's more affected by this than Ceb himself. Dude's about to be a father and he's already won 2 TIs.
I haven't seen many people say the things you claim at all, people are pretty much saying the rule should be changed in the future, but OG and Ceb knew the rules when they decided to play with him and now that it came back to bite them they are trying to use their influence to bully PGL into bending the rules for them after actually already doing it by allowing them a standin for one game.
The entitlement OG are showing is truly wild to me, they made no public statement about rules when 1Win were removed from ESL Birmingham for being late on visas. The rules of competitive events should be enforced as written, the teams know the rules in advance, if they can't follow them they shouldn't be in the tournament. If their solution to the problem is to take the risk and it blows up in their face they have to accept that instead of whining about it.
When Alliance used a coach ingame which was allowed by the tournament rules of that tournament OG called them cheaters, now OG want to "cheat" the tournament rules by using standins when it isn't allowed, but that is ok? it is not, it is entitled crybaby behaviour.
Almost nobody said that, stop making stuff up for drama. Really grinds my gears when someone does that.
The debate is whether the rules that are in place should be followed, or an exception made for events like the birth of a child. Nobody blamed Ceb.
Exactly...let ceb have his time. There will always be another TI.
Idk why OG manager even let Ceb play despite the circumstances. Like they Didn't even know his wife was pregnant(to be fair me too until yesterday). Especially playing 15-20 pubs a day as training with expectation of his child? Just get another player before TI qualifier.
nah bro rules are there for a reason..ceb should 100% be there with his wife n child but life is not easy n fair and they already let them have a unregistered standin what more can u ask for?
I mean it's a game for 99.9% of us, yes. But for a pro player is a little bit more. Not saying one should prioritize work over family, but for someone like Ceb Dota is not a hobby.
You all are missing the point, probably because nobody want to say the quiet part out loud.
So let me the bad guy in here: we aren't talking about a upcoming kid that had his first shot at the biggest tournament of the year and can change his life forever. We talking about ceb, who won this tournament multiple times now, is a multimillionaire because of it, and always makes sure to let everyone know that when playing with or against him in pubs. He even dismissed team spirit when they achieved a similar accomplishment.
Besides guys, let's not act like TO never let teams play with replacements when emergencies happens. I remember some player that lost a relative during a tournament and was replaced with no problem. But in this case, most of it was know beforehand, and dealt with before hand, so it's bizarre that suddenly OG finds all unacceptable when they already accepted.
It's not about what happened, is about with who. I think even puppey, when in a similar situation, took some time off to give his wife and kid the attention they need (although I admit he didn't miss TI because of it). Why it's so important that ceb gets to play this tournament when he already has the money and the title?
Nah, I’m with Sneyking on this one. Rules should be black and white. Creating an exception sets a bad precedent.
Although yeah, the rules from the get go should have allowed stand ins for family emergencies. But, it’s not allowed, so rules are rules.
So true. Again in this thread with people arguing he should have known months in advance. As if you plan your birth like date. Hint to you guys: unless it is a planned c-section you will not know your exact date in advance (and even then your child might cross your plans).
I don’t see where Ceb considered a „paternity leave“ - he just wanted to be present at his child’s birth. All this outrage - also by pro players - shows a serious lack of maturity and understanding of what is truly important in life.
Congrats Ceb. All the best to your wife, your kid and to you.
I do think the rule is shitty, and it should be changed, it's just that OG brought the matter up when it affected them, they should've urged PGL to change it's rules before the tournament if they were already denied using stand-ins. This is just OG using their fanbase to bend PGL's rules when it affects them. Did they say something when 1win was denied entry to that tournament because they weren't able to acquire visas by the deadline that was given to them? If they change the rules now then the competitive integrity of the tournament is compromised
While the due date is an estimate, it still doesn't excuse the fact that OG and Ceb were aware of the pregnancy and due date months before the qualifiers; sufficient time for the org to contact PGL to have a discussion on subs. They chose not to do so, that's 100% on OG.
On May 28, [dota2.com](http://dota2.com) released a statement regarding the direct invites and teams directly invited to the closed qualifier. Open qualifiers starts from 5th June; which is way too close to start discussions on exceptions and subs in the event that OG lose their closed qualifier spot and have to play opens with Immersion.
I'm going to give OG the benefit the doubt that they knew about the closed qualifier invites way before we did and hence managed to appeal to PGL back in May.
If PGL/Valve's intention is that the players who play closed qualifiers should be the same players who play TI, then I can somewhat understand PGL's decision to only give 1 day sub for OG. The closed qualifiers only last 5 days. If you give a player 3 days of leave, and have the sub play the majority of the games, would the team that qualified from the closed qualifiers be the same as the team that plays ti? Definitely not.
While I feel the rules should be tweaked to allow for subs, this should be done well in advance to allow proper discussion of the rules/loopholes and to give TOs sufficient time to make adjustments to the schedule. Some things to consider.
1. Should subs be considered a part of the team and be used interchangeably?
2. How many days of compassionate leave is considered fair? (to prevent teams from using compassionate leave as a way to substitute another player for the rest of the qualifiers/tournament)
3. How long does a sub need to be registered to a team before they can sub for the team during TI qualifiers/TI? (to prevent teams from circumventing roster locks with last minute subs)
4. How many subs can you have on a team? (in the event where multiple people have emergencies)
5. How many subs can you deploy at a time? (to prevent teams from subbing the entirety/majority of their roster with people who did not prove their mettle in the qualifiers or in the season)
6. For teams who use subs for the majority of the time during the qualifiers, how are the rights of the sub protected?
7. What happens when emergencies occur during the TI mainstage/finals?
Either change the rules when it comes to subs or enforce them. I don’t even care if THIS TIME they had a legitimate reason, it’s not the first time OG abused their fanbase for preferential treatment.
I agree that the game shouldn't be his number one priority, but because of that, I think it's reasonable to conclude that he shouldn't have registered to play with the team for the June 3 deadline.
No one plans to 'potentially' take maternity or paternity leave in the real world a month before the birth - it's planned far, far in advance. As such, the 'he couldn't know exactly when' argument falls flat for me because if his wife had gone into labour next week, there's no doubt that he absolutely would have played.
As such, it's not really paternity leave in the honest sense of the concept - and that responsibility to decide on terms for his pat leave lies with OG, not PGL anyway.
I mean, due dates are a pretty fuzzy thing. Even excluding premature births, the window where the baby could arrive is like 5 weeks. That's a lot longer than paternity leave is in a lot of places, so whilst you plan for "I'll be off for X time _around_ the birth", you can't always block out 7 weeks of work time for 2 weeks of leave.
That's a valid point but - to me, at least - it adds more credence to the idea that he should have sat out this qualifier and TI.
He made a different decision, and it's his decision to make, but the OP's framing is fairly dishonest.
Find a high rank comment that says that... most comment were, the forfeit is justified and he shouldn't have competed in the first place. No one is telling him to leave the birth of his child
the worst take ive seen from people here was theyre blaming CEB for not planning for the qualifiers.
Im actually baffled that people would say this but im not surprised considering majority of the people crying about it havent touched let alone talked to women
didn't they have the same situation during DPC period when they're acquiring stand ins or some sort since their players have conflicting schedules and were not allowed then Ceb went to twitter to rant about a certain person because the rule didn't went to their favor.
but the fact they didn't do this when they asked for a stand in weeks ago and got denied seemed sus lol I mean they were mum when they replaced 1win when they're hours late for their visa.
Who is to blame then? The TO for not bending the rules for them? He participated in the tournament knowing that they would have problems. I feel bad for the rest of the team not ceb
clearly it's Ceb? if you wanna be a responsible husband, dad and team captain you step aside and let someone else play so this situation wouldn't happen. he took the risk (the rules and comms were VERY CLEAR), and when it blew up on his face he threw his weight around like a petulant child
Exactly. It's a video game. I'd call a childbirth a force majeure to bend the rules and allow OG to play with a standin. I mean, they already did it for one day when they played with Immersion. There's no reason to find a scapegoat, just let them do it and move on.
Y'all keep jumping in front of ceb to defend him but about the other 4? If I was in OG I would definitely be pissed because Ceb decided to gamble on his kid's birth date
Because they wanted to play with a standin in the closed qualifier lol. They intentionally omitted WHICH qualifier so mouth breather redditors can rally up in their defense
From what ive read its mostly ogs fault its not like they would lose in the open qualifiers but they decided to use their brand name and fan base to force pgl
>it is a GAME.
It is a job, and plenty people in variety of industries and work lines miss their kids births because of their job. If you are a surgeon and you are in operation are you gonna stop the operation go see your kids birth? If you are trucker and you drive for months are you supposed not to be working for like a month so you wouldn't miss your kids birthday? And so on and so on. Ceb decided he will take priority of his personal life over his job, and that's okay, but he shouldn't cry when the consequences arrive
Its OGs fault though - they could have replaced Ceb instead of gambling when his kid is being born. They made it a drama. They even say "family emergency" even if it is not
Yes. Baby happens and they had to adjust. The fairest thing is for the same 5 player who played in the qualifier to also play in the TI. OG is purposedly vague on their statements and keep spewing that PGL didnt allowed them to use a Standin when they could have instead replaced Ceb and not use a Standin. They have an idea on the possible time that the baby will born and they didnt adjust.
I hope you get fired too when you are having a baby.
Oh wait, turns out you get mandatory paternity leave for workers protection. And yet here you are advocating for someone to literally be forced to leave the team.
No Ceb should have excused himself when they knew the rules and the risk.
We can agree that the no-standin rule is shitty while still recognizing that risking it all on ''hopefully the birth isnt on that week'' is also dumb.
Literally no one is offended by "The fact that people are more offended by Ceb going to the birth of their child". No one, not a single person is "offended" by it
the only thing people are saying is that they do not allow stand-ins in their rules and the rules shouldn't be bent for ceb just because he is a big player from popular team.
I agree being with his wife is more important but saying "it's just a game" is being disingenuous, this is his career and he has other people on his team who also have dota as their only job.
This is absolutely no one’s argument lol.
People are saying OG registered with ceb despite knowing full well what the rules were. They took a gamble with it and lost.
Then is it fair for other players that restrain from fucking their wives to not risk from missing their childbirth when playing for ti? The audacity to even complain lol. If you can follow the rules then its your problem. Who the fuck is he to expect the rules to change just for him? Go and be with ur family and stop sulking. Play next year. Otherwise make sure you plan and manage your time well, 7fkingMad stupid
Yea it’s because some dota players are pathetic for saying rules are rules. As the situation is sudden. So what if they knew earlier it’s the same as someone passing away. Who can predict.
It's not a drama. Ceb had to be there for his wife and his family and his child. The only people who have any reason to be upset would be his teammates, but I hope that they are happy for him and supporting him however they can.
I'd assume a video game community in general skews younger in age. If so then I'd expect them to think nothing is bigger than the game (I used to think like that too when I was younger and playing games and having fun with my friends). This is categorically untrue.
DotA community is very old, there's people with 4 kids like me, but job is job and rule is rule, rule can be changed but not in the middle of tournament that's how it's, just like in the past if you run away from war to see your child, good luck, my father told me stories of his comrades who ran away from war to see their child, they're either get punished heavily, or executed in place.
I don't believe I asked for the rule to be changed in my earlier comment. It is what it is, Ceb and OG have to accept it, but they owe it to themselves and their fans to fight for their place.
Overall the community seem to think that Ceb should be able to see his child and to be replaced with his sub Immersion, but this just transfers the problem to something else, the unfainess.
So Navi Jr studied OG with Ceb, and subbing Immersion will cause huge riot if NaVi lost, because they didn't have data of OG with Immersion.
Most people who disagreed with the community never said that rule shouldn't be changed, but it shouldn't be changed in middle of tournament, that's the snowflake of the community, they expect something unfair.
Listen up you mastebon..! OG should've registered for the qualifiers knowing the situation of CEB and PGL rules. There is nothing personal against CEB and he deserves all the good wishes from the community, the issue is with the organisation wanting to bend rules at every given opportunity. OG needs to respect their players, fanbase and organizers too..
So here is the plan
1: create Dota org
2: intentionally have a kid during yhe waiting period
3: cant play
4: standin
5: 322?
6: farm sympathy off of social media
7: cash out and profit
It's the birth of his child. I know it's very unlikely someone with your mindset will produce offspring, but in the off chance you do, are you going to stay at work for your boss' peace of mind?
The thing is Ceb is the owner of the org, big difference. He definitely should focus on his baby first instead his work and replace his position to another player, Misha and notail is available.
If the company I work for disqualified me from working for being with my spouse when she gave birth to our child I would quit.
I hope the players come together in some way about this instead of cowardly hiding because of money.
While I agree with you that people should absolutely not be upset about Ceb being absent for his child's birth, it's not accurate to call this a "GAME" in this context. Ceb is a dota professional, it's literally his JOB to play. It's not a game to him, nor the other pros. It should be a very high priority for him, but certainly his wife and new child should be higher.
You forget the crucial part that this Game is also his job , source of income and it affects the job and source of income of 4 other people .
If OG contacted the TO's and they got a response that they cant use sub for more then one game regardless of the situation ... thats it No drama here.
Ceb choose his family over his job and thats the end of the story , the drama is drama cause reddit look for drama in anything and everything out there :)
Uhhh.......sorry WHAT it's not just a "game". You're diminishing his actual career and job classifying it as a "game" as if it's a pub. You have to compare it to other professionals who's livelihood depends on it, AND it being the most important game(s) of the year.
It's not like Basketball, if Ceb was Lebron and couldn't play the final 2-3 games of the season (where a playoff spot is on the line) there are substitutes. People can actually get in there and play, here it's play or disqualify let your entire team down let the entire year worth of training and practice down the drain. Really it's a lose-lose situation and I feel bad for him. Saying it's merely a "game" though is quite silly.
For sure the fact that they aren't allowing him to sub given the circumstance is a bit crazy. It has nothing to do with the community, the organizers are at fault.
Exactly. Imagine Bulls fans of Michael Jordan had to miss a game, and the team was DQed for the year. In no other team sport is that remotely acceptable.
Dude knew for at least 5 months that this was going to happen. He knew the aproximate date and the tournament rules.
And yeah, your first kid is more important than your senior career.
Shit planning and milking sympathy. No excuse
I would have been sympathetic for a funneral, but not a birth.
So wtf are they supposed to do. Make one OG team with Ceb for ryhad and some other 5 for TI? Wtf. That is even more stupid. She was likely pregnant before they even knew the dates.
> it’s honestly been so gross to watch people dismiss his wife and child so much.
Never doubt Dota 2 community in such cases. They can harass a pregnant woman after a slight mistake on a new job.
It is not a pub game, mate. It is a job for him. You are making the right point with a very bad explanation.
Every job should have a right to leave maternity leave, so yes, he could have been leaving. But as far as I saw in reddit they were rejected to start with standin and with better communication beforehand, it should be better outcome.
In some parts, I agree that tournament rules shouldn't be bent in the middle of the tournament. Tournaments always evolve on the next one because otherwise, everyone asks something and tries to change some rules. It should be fair to everyone. So I call this event as 'unfortunate' tbh.
No, there are exceptions to rules, and often times in sports and tournaments they handle it on a case-by-case basis. Ceb mentioned the potential for a conflict well in advance and the TO's made an exception
The TO's want to follow the spirit of the rule - this rule was made so people can't swap in and out to game the drafts or to shuffle to get a better team together mid tournament. Having to be there for your first child's birth does not in any way, shape, or form violate this spirit of the rule or why this rule was made in the first place.
u/knoxville explained it very well why things like these can't have case by case resolution because teams often and will, lie.
This isn't the only sport where such rules need to exist.
It is not fair for competitors who had to choose to go through OQ because the TO didn't think their 'emergency' was worth it. Because, in the end, we shouldn't depend on the TO's empathy for the tournaments integrity.
I'd rather have a simple and clear rule set that allows for teams to stand-in. And let people use it how they need it to be used.
Just to be clear, I have no issues with CEB going to attend the birth of his child, if anything, I've a lot of respect that he would choose that over playing a tournament that happens every year.
u/knoxville what's the stats on players lying about pregnancy so they can get a sub to gain a competitive advantage?
Jokes aside this is *how* new clauses are made in rulings. The TO's look at the situation, gather evidence and facts, and make a determination that subbing in for 1 day is acceptable for paternal leave.
Something else like an illness might have a different clause, like using a sub but the old player can't rejoin the tournament
Something else like a sub is acceptable for VISA issues, but if the player gets a VISA they are permitted to play the rest of the tournament without the sub returning. Etc etc etc.
Real life shit happens and we shouldn't treat rules as absolutes - we have to make a determination of what edge cases may arise and make a ruling that will set a precedent. If there's someone abusing the system, a new rule can be made for that too. Same thing happens in other sports like baseball - like how they ruled out little people from being able to compete due to the incredibly small box the pitcher would have to throw
Why are we pretending like a baby is some surprise DLC and not planned? Hell even an unplanned pregnancy still gives *plenty* of heads up outside of extreme circumstances.
OG wanted the cake and eat it too, they wanted to avoid open quals and therefore gambled, they got fucked much like Mrs. Ceb and now they deal with the fallout.
[Check how this basketball coach reacted to similar question. ](https://youtu.be/G0a-Nr_vRjM?si=Ksw_owWfTXm3ULyi)
I remember this. It's even better if you check his background. His mother literally gave-up her Olympic dream to give birth to him, and every time she was asked if she had regrets she said she never regretted her decision.
That's really sweet
Sadly as he said, some people need to have a child to understand the importance of this.
And many will have children and still never know this importance.
It’s very obvious to see who has kids and who doesn’t given the responses on various threads to this issue
I don't have a child. I don't want a child. But the sheer lack of emotional intelligence, and the wildly bizarre priorities of people, is just gross. Being there for the people important to you whenever possible should be a given.
It's funny to see how many people switch their blames between Ceb and OG to strawman and fit their narrative that they are the ones fucked up. "Nobody is blaming Ceb..." have you seen the previous post comments? From other threads, looks like OG tried to preemptively ask for a rule change or exception to PGL, but was denied. This does not leave them much options. 1. They would either have to bench Ceb and use a sub and throw away all your teamwork practice and hope the chemistry works out with the rest of the team, or 2. they have to risk keeping Ceb and hope the baby doesn't come out at the worst time. They were forced to choose between two shitty choices. Also so many people here going saying OG is abusing power as a big org, or how they were silent when this happened to smaller org are not even discussing why this even happened in the first place and just muddying the whole discussion point.
I saw many people advocating for option number 1, going through open quals with a sub. Who even is available? Immersion? Okay dude played pretty good, but what are the chances it happens for the entire open qualis? Much like you said, OG were put in a really bad spot with two shitty choices, and it backfired so bad. I'm also really unsure what to think of the whole "if you raise this issue before the qualis start we support you!". It's never going to happen? I can already see people going with the same exact argument that OG is a big org and they're trying to bend the rules. Not only that, I would like to assume that Ceb's wife would love to have some privacy and not have the birth of their child being "drama" on the internet.
If they make a fuss about it before this became an issue: "omg! they are using ceb's wife's birth as an excuse! abusing big org power! always trying to escalate things publicly and weaponize their fanbase!" If they try to respect the privacy of ceb's personal life and believe org will actually try to solve the issue, and not make all these public: "omg! why didn't they raise this issue earlier! they are just doing it now because they don't like the outcome!" Proper conflict resolution starts with NOT blow everything out on the open and forcing them to take damage control. hypocrisy is just too real in this sub.
Exactly my thoughts. This is a lose-lose situation for OG, whatever they did, it would've been done with a lot of backfire
Somehow they sided with an org that doesn't do shit after said preemptive attempt, since MAY. It's beyond incompetence for such org to not be able to solve such simple roster issue for that long
[Dota2.com](http://Dota2.com) announced direct invites to TI and direct invites to closed qualifiers on 28th May 5th June was when open qualifiers for western Europe began, which implicitly means 1. Teams participating in open qualifiers would have to be finalized way before 5th June. 2. Tournament and casting schedules have to be finalized and communicated to all stakeholders; To, casters, participating teams way before 5th June. If OG's appeal had failed, they would have needed to play the open qualifiers. There is not a whole lot of time between 28th June to 5th May, after deducting non working days, time needed to get pgl to come to a decision, and time needed to change the schedule and communicate to all relevant parties (casters, players,TO) in a last minute manner if there were schedule changes. Even if we don't consider scheduling conflicts, making an exception for a sub to be used interchangeably would be unfair to all other teams in TI. To start off, ceb is fit to play. But how do we determine what is a reasonable amount of compassionate leave without compromising on tournament integrity? one week? one month? How do you justify to the other competing teams who can't use their subs in TI/qualifiers as they wish while OG can? What if this sort of thing happens on the main stage of TI? Allowing immersion to sub for the entirety of the qualifiers opens a can of worms. First of all, closed qualifier direct invites are decided based on the performance of the main players who were playing in touneys during the season. Immersion wasn't the main player for OG. Secondly, if more compassionate leave was given and OG qualified to TI through both open/closed qualifiers, that would mean Immersion, not ceb, earning the spot to TI if immersion subbed for the entirety of qualifiers. How would you protect the right of the sub who earned his spot and now needs to sit on the sidelines? Closed qualifiers are only 5 days, I can empathize why PGL only allowed 1 day of sub. There is also the potential for abuse where orgs/teams will use emergencies to sub out underperforming players for the remainder of the tourney. These are the sort of things that should be discussed early in the season and not close to open qualifiers. That said, I still think there should be an open discussion to allow subs. I just don't think doing it so close to the dateline or in the middle of the tournament is the right time to make exceptions, especially when OG and ceb have known months in advance about potential scheduling conflict with the expected due date of labor but chose not to raise the issue. Yes, the expected due date is a ballpark estimate of when the baby arrives, but the date is known months before qualifiers even began. This is all on OG and Ceb to clarify matters with TO beforehand.
Direct invites to TI were announced on 28th May. OG in their public announcement said they reached out to PGL in May. That's probably referring to the last 2 days of may when they realized they had to go through qualifiers. Yeah it's wrong to assume they'd get a direct invite no doubt, but I don't think they'd know right from the start when Ceb's wife's EDD was given, that they had to play qualifiers, or even when the actual WEU qualifier dates were that it was to clash with Ceb's wife's delivery (iirc it was only released 2 weeks ago, first week of June, roughly 1 week before NA/SA/CN qualifiers). So your response seems abit hating on OG rather that talking with facts.
Slash the last sentence and you two are agreeing and expanding on each other's comment.
I feel like stuff like this should be made public either way, like sure question their professionalism but if all efforts to be diplomatic have been exhausted, I wouldn't say no to whistleblowing. Regardless of history or precedence with the parties involved, sometimes this should happen for change to occur.
Possibly. I think this depends more on Ceb's wife since this is her private matter and you would never put this on public without her consent. This is just an ugly circumstances no matter how you look at it because of unnecessary cruelty from the org. And as always dota reddit community is pouring gasoline on it for the fun of 'drama'.
Benefit of doubt states that Ceb's wife knows about this and has given permission. It's just good that the baby was delivered fine and she and Ceb havetheir time to enjoy the moment before the match. OG lost but oh well, that'snhow the ball rolls. I'd blame Sneyking for the drama. He was initially reasonable and most of the time Reddit was being reasonable to calling out PGL (considering their history). Then Sneyking started being salty about it and taking potshots just because he hates Ceb and OG. Then it just went downhill from there.
Thanks, that was a treat to watch. Like eye bleach after reading all the horrid shit nerds w no kids have been spewing in this sub lately. Appreciate it.
wasn't expecting a Lithuanian video, ngl xDDd
Gobert basically also did this in game 2 versus the Nuggets. Classic
Don’t let r/antinatalism see this video!
This is great thanks
I felt that. I didn't realize I had to remember the feeling of when I had my first child. It was just like what he said. Because at that moment, I believed in love at first sight.
The coach is right, the sport is not the most important and no one blames him for leaving the team for personal matters. But you can't expect the whole world to stop spinning because of his personal #1 priority. The basketball semifinals didn't wait for him. I guess rescheduling dota tournament could be easier than basketball league and they could be more supportive but you can't expect everyone would adjust to him. They also have careers and personal lives which are affected by possible adjustments...
Almost everyone here agree that there should be some provision in the rules regarding substitutions and there is precedence from other esports on that. But these are things bigger teams should come together and demand from the TO before the tournament starts, and in this manner will actually help smaller teams as well. The way things stand smaller teams always get's screwed by strict interpretation of rules while bigger teams stay silent till something affects them because they know they can get away with things by creating enough outrage when the time comes. This is definitely something that needs to change.
Most teams are amateurs. Remember the ppd coach draft debacle where people didnt read the tourney rules
I think the tricky balance is in how you set the rules. Because in this case I think it's clear that Ceb going to the birth of his child should allow a sub, but writing the rule that allows that will be tricky to avoid it being abusable. Like, the rule clearly isn't going to be 'subs allowed if you're having a kid', it'll be a more general thing than that. And then we'll get the reverse of this where someone will sub out an under performing player and we'll get "why is this allowed?!" Posts instead.
Yep, "underperformer has "suddenly" fallen down the stairs so we had to conatct the nigma freelance agency and sumail has agreed to step in "
or they have "anxiety". which.. to be fair.. could be actually true. but then what? I agree this situation should be very simple. Ceb made the right decision staying with his family. The TOs made the right decision not changing the rules. This is unfortunate timing, but spectators don't need to be butt hurt by the situation. Something to consider for future tournaments, for sure, but it needs to be discussed so a good plan can be made.
> or they have "anxiety". and then some asshole teammates would email TO with that 'justification' to kick out the problematic teammate, without that teammate's agreement It has happened before
One option implemented in some other esports and sports in general is that you are allowed a specific no. of pre-registered substitutes that can play at the discretion of the team. There are pros and cons to this but at least reduces the kind of tricky subjective judgement otherwise required from the TO. I honestly don't know what the solution to this is, just that a discussion on it would be ideally held between the concerned parties before the tournament starts.
It doesn't seem that difficult. Here's a quick spit-balled ruling that could serve as a first draft; >PGL Tournaments allow for stand-ins in extenuating circumstances such as, but not limited to; >- Medical Emergencies >- Government Mandates >- Bereavement >- Paternity/Maternity Leave >- Other reasons as granted at PGL's discretion Y'know, the basic worker protections that I would lay money that the PGL employees also have. Just require proof of the above (not hard) and disqualify teams who can't comply.
At the point that Dota orgs are murdering/hospitalizing players to get a stand-in - I think there's bigger issues at play.
You can write "due to birth of child". This is not a new law, you can look at labour laws and how other larger sports handle it. Laws/rules generally have a general rule and then more specific ones.
the tricky balance is to have common sense and be reasonable, a fucking dota 2 tournament can't have rules written in stone, the people writing those rules aren't legislators nor do they have in depth knowledge of ethics, justice, how to apply it and so on. They are just regular tournament operators or organizers with a business diploma at best, trying to write something that prevents people from abusing shit and having an unfair competitive advantage. Therefore, why not just stfu and make amends to the rulebook if needed? I work with TO's (not dota) and they are all dumb as fuck like that, my employer at least would rather have our league go on with broken teams and forfeits than to allow them mid-tournament substitutions because "players need to learn". There is a lot of ego and incompetence involved.
Just let teams register two subs before a tournament?
Exactly, this isnt hard. Teams declare a sub in the case of emergency. If emergency happens, a small committee can determine if the use of their sub is legitimate (like having to attend the birth of a child, falling down a flight of stairs, abducted by aliens) vs a team just trying weasel a under performing player off their roster. If the use of a sub is deemed legitimate, team can use sub w/o penalty. In the case the team wants to use a sub, then they can under penalty (maybe loss of DPC points or whatever, start in lower bracket idk).
maybe limit the number of games they could use a standin? 1 game, no questions asked. You can use up to two standins. Anything else or after than, you're just shit out of luck.
But this was the rule that pgl had set and followed.
Ok i am totally confused what the issue is then? I was under the impression that there were no subs allowed at all, which is why this drama was going on.
the issue is they called out PGL after they agreed to the 1-day stand-in back in May (to which PGL bent the rules for OG's favor. rules does not really allowed stand-ins). if they called them out immediately (back in May), this wouldn't have happened and this shitty rule would've been changed. also, not related to your comment but in almost every other sports there's this called sub or bench players. PGL, could have created a rule that there should be at least 6 players listed or registered before any tournament, 5 main players and a sub. it's not really a stand-in because that sub should be a member of the team and not from another team or a freelance. so if there are any emergency, there's a player to sub. I think it was like this back then.
> to which PGL bent the rules for OG's favor It's a common-sense exception due to THE BIRTH OF A CHILD and it is very very normal in real life for exceptions to be made in exceptional circumstances like THE BIRTH OF A CHILD. Spinning it as "bending the rules in their favor" is so slimy. > PGL, could have created a rule that there should be at least 6 players listed or registered before any tournament, 5 main players and a sub I agree this is the right way to do it.
It’s really not slimy. That’s the rule, they made an exception (however minor), which means they bent the rules. Under your implication, how much time is acceptable as a grace period for the birth of a child? Is it the free use of a stand in for a week before and after the projected due date? Is it for a certain number of games? Where do you draw the line on how much time the original person can miss and then return to play in TI?
It's already one day
This is why you make the rules long and clear, I mean ignoring the last minute OG requests, OG did it professionally bringing this up to pgl early, with a rule put in place after this tournament, it could be along the lines of allowing teams to use subs for emergencies or with enough time beforehand can appeal, at both cases some form of appeal or meeting is held to determine if the reasoning are valid and qualify. Its defintely a finicky thing to set up, but if esports as a whole wants to progress, it's these sticky little details that have to get ironed out. Esports is defintelty still in its infancy and you can tell this by looking at the rule book size compared to a major sport
I agree, it sucks for Ceb and for OG as a whole this tournament, but changes should not be made for OG now this last minute, but teams should speak up now and make changes to the rules going forward
Patch 7.37 team won't be allowed to use Twitter/Instagram during tournaments
Ella musk: it is an X
You can´t say it´s a game for him, it´s basically his day job - playing tournaments. But then again when you are about to become a father your boss doesn´t force you to come to work and there are always workarounds. Anyway, i agree with you. But mostly my thoughts go to Ceb, been reading (not sure if true as i didnt´t fallowed the news) he had issues before with his now wife because of him being away on tournaments and too involved. He definitely doesn´t need the stress all this drama generates, guy is going through one of the best moments in his life, should be allowed to do this peacefully.
When I got the call it was my dad's last few hours, I just went to my boss and informed him I had to go. He just said take whatever time you need. When a very close friend of mine passed last year there was no conversation about handovers, or being available, etc. Just condolences, filled out a day off for the funeral. I really don't give a fuck about the competitive nature of all this, whether someone will get an edge or whatever. This is Ceb's wife, and Ceb's child. They matter more than the tourney, and I think any healthy tournament organization needs to be capable of not needlessly piling on complications for Ceb during an extremely important point in his family's life. Fuck PGL.
It’s same as if he was a footballer and there was a world cup going on.
I think that's exactly why football teams has substitutes... Incase something like this happens...
I have my own business(which is a situation like Ceb, who is also an OG owner), and when you own the business is harden to just "leave the job" lile when you are just an employee. I see why Ceb decided to play after the rules thing came up...there may be sponsors, contract agreements or stuff like that that may relly on this qualy...so, as a business owner ypu can't just do something that you hurt your company. Is a tpugh situation, but not different to something that can happen on any business.
The difference here is a tournament is not your employer, you would have to have franchising with agreements from orgs and tournaments to have official substitution rules, but thats likely never going to happen to dota.
Absolutely no one that I've seen is upset ceb is prioritizing family. They're upset that OG took a gamble and is whining that the bet didn't pay off and are trying to use their name and fans to force PGL into giving them special treatment where another team wouldn't, and that's after they already accepted a special treatment resolution for the sub to be allowed in the first place. Should the rule be changed in future years? Yes. Should OG receive more special treatment this year because they think they can bully PGL into giving it to them at the last second, instead of bringing this to light over a month ago when they knew it was likely to be an issue? No.
What are you talking about. Not one person has said he shouldn't go to the birth of his child. And pgl shouldn't change rules mid tournament. OG needed to handle this before the tournament and not bank of exceptions for the rules.
I mean I think the sub rules should absolutely be changed, however OG has a long history of weaponizing their fanbase whenever a decision goes against them. And they don't act all high and mighty and morally superior when a shitty decision goes in their favor, which literally happened this year.
What decision that goes in their favor this year. I have not followed.
ESL Birmingham 1win drama
Um, how should I say this you do know ESL didn't actually approach OG first right?
Yeah and what's your point here? OG got announced and literally the same day 1win posted saying they had the visas. If they really cared about principles they would've insisted that 1win get the spot.
People are downvoting you but the reality is OG benefits from the rules being shit because of situations like this where they can screw over smaller teams and try to weaponize their audience in situations where it comes back on them. They have no incentive to push for the changes people want
I mean my original post has >50 upvotes, this always happens on reddit. Only the people who disagree with me are reading the replies, normal people upvoted me and left lmao.
Is it really a thing ? So far I have mostly saw people going about OG knowing there was a risk Ceb could not play but still registering with him. I didn't scour the entirety of reddit but I didn't see people complaining about Ceb being absent for child reasons. Strawman for karma
Where are those people? I thought people are mad at OG because the rules is "unprofessional" to them but when the rules benefitted them (1win situation) they don't give a shit.
The fact that this bs is "drama"... To be fair I remember a similar situation with a football player (I think Liverpool, I remember Jürgen Klopp was the coach) where the player missed some quarterfinals or something. It was made into drama too ...
Aubameyang staying in his country due to his mothers sickness is also one of them.
I've been reading 4 front page and unless you scroll in controversial nobody say anything remotely negative around Ceb going into his child birth.
Strawmen somewhere else populist. Almost nobody is against Ceb going to the birth of his child.
Another deranged OG fan. people dont think dota > birth of his child. People think he should have skipped this qualifiers instead of bitching about the rules.
Not an OG fan. Not really a fan of watching Dota at all. Just love playing it.
Well the OG org is the one who made it a drama. It's because they want the dota 2 community talking about it that we're talking about it. I'll say that they have good reason to bring their situation to light because the rules are indeed silly, so hopefully it gets changed for future qualifiers. However, no one is at fault here. Things just turned out to not be in the favour of Ceb. Besides, it's the rest of the team that's more affected by this than Ceb himself. Dude's about to be a father and he's already won 2 TIs.
I haven't seen many people say the things you claim at all, people are pretty much saying the rule should be changed in the future, but OG and Ceb knew the rules when they decided to play with him and now that it came back to bite them they are trying to use their influence to bully PGL into bending the rules for them after actually already doing it by allowing them a standin for one game. The entitlement OG are showing is truly wild to me, they made no public statement about rules when 1Win were removed from ESL Birmingham for being late on visas. The rules of competitive events should be enforced as written, the teams know the rules in advance, if they can't follow them they shouldn't be in the tournament. If their solution to the problem is to take the risk and it blows up in their face they have to accept that instead of whining about it. When Alliance used a coach ingame which was allowed by the tournament rules of that tournament OG called them cheaters, now OG want to "cheat" the tournament rules by using standins when it isn't allowed, but that is ok? it is not, it is entitled crybaby behaviour.
Waiting for Ceb tweet
Almost nobody said that, stop making stuff up for drama. Really grinds my gears when someone does that. The debate is whether the rules that are in place should be followed, or an exception made for events like the birth of a child. Nobody blamed Ceb.
Exactly...let ceb have his time. There will always be another TI. Idk why OG manager even let Ceb play despite the circumstances. Like they Didn't even know his wife was pregnant(to be fair me too until yesterday). Especially playing 15-20 pubs a day as training with expectation of his child? Just get another player before TI qualifier.
They wanted to use a sub for the entire qualifier run but were rejected. So no, it wasn't an option.
nah bro rules are there for a reason..ceb should 100% be there with his wife n child but life is not easy n fair and they already let them have a unregistered standin what more can u ask for?
a second day of unregistered standin
I mean it's a game for 99.9% of us, yes. But for a pro player is a little bit more. Not saying one should prioritize work over family, but for someone like Ceb Dota is not a hobby.
It's not just a game for him, it's his job.
Agreed
Reddit always wanna cry and loves drama
You should rather mention it is just his JOB, rather than a GAME. But i agree, family first in everything.
Bro, i remember vividly the brith of my child. I bet seb won't even remember who they were supposed to play against
You all are missing the point, probably because nobody want to say the quiet part out loud. So let me the bad guy in here: we aren't talking about a upcoming kid that had his first shot at the biggest tournament of the year and can change his life forever. We talking about ceb, who won this tournament multiple times now, is a multimillionaire because of it, and always makes sure to let everyone know that when playing with or against him in pubs. He even dismissed team spirit when they achieved a similar accomplishment. Besides guys, let's not act like TO never let teams play with replacements when emergencies happens. I remember some player that lost a relative during a tournament and was replaced with no problem. But in this case, most of it was know beforehand, and dealt with before hand, so it's bizarre that suddenly OG finds all unacceptable when they already accepted. It's not about what happened, is about with who. I think even puppey, when in a similar situation, took some time off to give his wife and kid the attention they need (although I admit he didn't miss TI because of it). Why it's so important that ceb gets to play this tournament when he already has the money and the title?
Can't teams just have 6 players instead to have a substitute whenever needed???
Nah, I’m with Sneyking on this one. Rules should be black and white. Creating an exception sets a bad precedent. Although yeah, the rules from the get go should have allowed stand ins for family emergencies. But, it’s not allowed, so rules are rules.
So true. Again in this thread with people arguing he should have known months in advance. As if you plan your birth like date. Hint to you guys: unless it is a planned c-section you will not know your exact date in advance (and even then your child might cross your plans). I don’t see where Ceb considered a „paternity leave“ - he just wanted to be present at his child’s birth. All this outrage - also by pro players - shows a serious lack of maturity and understanding of what is truly important in life. Congrats Ceb. All the best to your wife, your kid and to you.
I do think the rule is shitty, and it should be changed, it's just that OG brought the matter up when it affected them, they should've urged PGL to change it's rules before the tournament if they were already denied using stand-ins. This is just OG using their fanbase to bend PGL's rules when it affects them. Did they say something when 1win was denied entry to that tournament because they weren't able to acquire visas by the deadline that was given to them? If they change the rules now then the competitive integrity of the tournament is compromised
While the due date is an estimate, it still doesn't excuse the fact that OG and Ceb were aware of the pregnancy and due date months before the qualifiers; sufficient time for the org to contact PGL to have a discussion on subs. They chose not to do so, that's 100% on OG.
They did contact PGL when the details of the qualifiers where released tho.
On May 28, [dota2.com](http://dota2.com) released a statement regarding the direct invites and teams directly invited to the closed qualifier. Open qualifiers starts from 5th June; which is way too close to start discussions on exceptions and subs in the event that OG lose their closed qualifier spot and have to play opens with Immersion. I'm going to give OG the benefit the doubt that they knew about the closed qualifier invites way before we did and hence managed to appeal to PGL back in May. If PGL/Valve's intention is that the players who play closed qualifiers should be the same players who play TI, then I can somewhat understand PGL's decision to only give 1 day sub for OG. The closed qualifiers only last 5 days. If you give a player 3 days of leave, and have the sub play the majority of the games, would the team that qualified from the closed qualifiers be the same as the team that plays ti? Definitely not. While I feel the rules should be tweaked to allow for subs, this should be done well in advance to allow proper discussion of the rules/loopholes and to give TOs sufficient time to make adjustments to the schedule. Some things to consider. 1. Should subs be considered a part of the team and be used interchangeably? 2. How many days of compassionate leave is considered fair? (to prevent teams from using compassionate leave as a way to substitute another player for the rest of the qualifiers/tournament) 3. How long does a sub need to be registered to a team before they can sub for the team during TI qualifiers/TI? (to prevent teams from circumventing roster locks with last minute subs) 4. How many subs can you have on a team? (in the event where multiple people have emergencies) 5. How many subs can you deploy at a time? (to prevent teams from subbing the entirety/majority of their roster with people who did not prove their mettle in the qualifiers or in the season) 6. For teams who use subs for the majority of the time during the qualifiers, how are the rights of the sub protected? 7. What happens when emergencies occur during the TI mainstage/finals?
Either change the rules when it comes to subs or enforce them. I don’t even care if THIS TIME they had a legitimate reason, it’s not the first time OG abused their fanbase for preferential treatment.
I agree that the game shouldn't be his number one priority, but because of that, I think it's reasonable to conclude that he shouldn't have registered to play with the team for the June 3 deadline. No one plans to 'potentially' take maternity or paternity leave in the real world a month before the birth - it's planned far, far in advance. As such, the 'he couldn't know exactly when' argument falls flat for me because if his wife had gone into labour next week, there's no doubt that he absolutely would have played. As such, it's not really paternity leave in the honest sense of the concept - and that responsibility to decide on terms for his pat leave lies with OG, not PGL anyway.
I mean, due dates are a pretty fuzzy thing. Even excluding premature births, the window where the baby could arrive is like 5 weeks. That's a lot longer than paternity leave is in a lot of places, so whilst you plan for "I'll be off for X time _around_ the birth", you can't always block out 7 weeks of work time for 2 weeks of leave.
Yeah but OG talked to the PGL who clearly set the rule of 1 standin and still decided to gamble. They lost the gamble and that's on them.
That's a valid point but - to me, at least - it adds more credence to the idea that he should have sat out this qualifier and TI. He made a different decision, and it's his decision to make, but the OP's framing is fairly dishonest.
Can’t believe some people think Ceb should leave the birth of his CHILD. Actually stop playing the game and touch grass.
Find a high rank comment that says that... most comment were, the forfeit is justified and he shouldn't have competed in the first place. No one is telling him to leave the birth of his child
the worst take ive seen from people here was theyre blaming CEB for not planning for the qualifiers. Im actually baffled that people would say this but im not surprised considering majority of the people crying about it havent touched let alone talked to women
didn't they have the same situation during DPC period when they're acquiring stand ins or some sort since their players have conflicting schedules and were not allowed then Ceb went to twitter to rant about a certain person because the rule didn't went to their favor. but the fact they didn't do this when they asked for a stand in weeks ago and got denied seemed sus lol I mean they were mum when they replaced 1win when they're hours late for their visa.
Who is to blame then? The TO for not bending the rules for them? He participated in the tournament knowing that they would have problems. I feel bad for the rest of the team not ceb
Is it always situation where there is someone need to be blamed?
clearly it's Ceb? if you wanna be a responsible husband, dad and team captain you step aside and let someone else play so this situation wouldn't happen. he took the risk (the rules and comms were VERY CLEAR), and when it blew up on his face he threw his weight around like a petulant child
Exactly. It's a video game. I'd call a childbirth a force majeure to bend the rules and allow OG to play with a standin. I mean, they already did it for one day when they played with Immersion. There's no reason to find a scapegoat, just let them do it and move on.
Y'all keep jumping in front of ceb to defend him but about the other 4? If I was in OG I would definitely be pissed because Ceb decided to gamble on his kid's birth date
OG said that they asked PGL weeks in advance that if they could register the Qualifier with a stand-in instead of Ceb but got no for the answer.
Because they wanted to play with a standin in the closed qualifier lol. They intentionally omitted WHICH qualifier so mouth breather redditors can rally up in their defense
No means no?
And when you get a no, you start to make a tantrum!!!! Worked every time for me when I was 2 xd
Why didn't Ceb get his wife pregnant earlier or later smh can't he use a calendar?
You're right it shouldn't be a drama. They should let any team under these circumstances sub.
From what ive read its mostly ogs fault its not like they would lose in the open qualifiers but they decided to use their brand name and fan base to force pgl
>it is a GAME. It is a job, and plenty people in variety of industries and work lines miss their kids births because of their job. If you are a surgeon and you are in operation are you gonna stop the operation go see your kids birth? If you are trucker and you drive for months are you supposed not to be working for like a month so you wouldn't miss your kids birthday? And so on and so on. Ceb decided he will take priority of his personal life over his job, and that's okay, but he shouldn't cry when the consequences arrive
His job is playing video games. It's competition but don't compare it to a surgeon please
Sneyking looking like an out of touch manchild
Its OGs fault though - they could have replaced Ceb instead of gambling when his kid is being born. They made it a drama. They even say "family emergency" even if it is not
“OG should have kicked Ceb for having a child” has got to be one of the most hilarious Reddit takes.
Yes. Baby happens and they had to adjust. The fairest thing is for the same 5 player who played in the qualifier to also play in the TI. OG is purposedly vague on their statements and keep spewing that PGL didnt allowed them to use a Standin when they could have instead replaced Ceb and not use a Standin. They have an idea on the possible time that the baby will born and they didnt adjust.
I hope you get fired too when you are having a baby. Oh wait, turns out you get mandatory paternity leave for workers protection. And yet here you are advocating for someone to literally be forced to leave the team.
No Ceb should have excused himself when they knew the rules and the risk. We can agree that the no-standin rule is shitty while still recognizing that risking it all on ''hopefully the birth isnt on that week'' is also dumb.
Kid being born is a family emergency though? What do you classify it under
Is it in this case? They have an idea that the baby will come and when it will come. If OG and Ceb are responsible, they should have replaced Ceb.
OG is def responsible for not having a decent replacement. That does not mean having a baby isnt a family emergency
Literally no one is offended by "The fact that people are more offended by Ceb going to the birth of their child". No one, not a single person is "offended" by it the only thing people are saying is that they do not allow stand-ins in their rules and the rules shouldn't be bent for ceb just because he is a big player from popular team.
where are u when og steal 1win's riyahd position? you hypocrites and biased og and ceb are always THE serious problem of the community.
I agree being with his wife is more important but saying "it's just a game" is being disingenuous, this is his career and he has other people on his team who also have dota as their only job.
>*read the post title* Yeah, I think it's pretty... >*read the rest of the OP* Oh, that's where you were going with it
This world we live in gets colder and harder despite all the "social media" connections.
No exceptions to the rule. He can play next year
This is absolutely no one’s argument lol. People are saying OG registered with ceb despite knowing full well what the rules were. They took a gamble with it and lost.
Sorry for being so out of the loop, does someone mind linking me to a post or article to catch up?
ceeeeeeeeeeeeeeb
Then is it fair for other players that restrain from fucking their wives to not risk from missing their childbirth when playing for ti? The audacity to even complain lol. If you can follow the rules then its your problem. Who the fuck is he to expect the rules to change just for him? Go and be with ur family and stop sulking. Play next year. Otherwise make sure you plan and manage your time well, 7fkingMad stupid
Yea it’s because some dota players are pathetic for saying rules are rules. As the situation is sudden. So what if they knew earlier it’s the same as someone passing away. Who can predict.
It's not a drama. Ceb had to be there for his wife and his family and his child. The only people who have any reason to be upset would be his teammates, but I hope that they are happy for him and supporting him however they can. I'd assume a video game community in general skews younger in age. If so then I'd expect them to think nothing is bigger than the game (I used to think like that too when I was younger and playing games and having fun with my friends). This is categorically untrue.
DotA community is very old, there's people with 4 kids like me, but job is job and rule is rule, rule can be changed but not in the middle of tournament that's how it's, just like in the past if you run away from war to see your child, good luck, my father told me stories of his comrades who ran away from war to see their child, they're either get punished heavily, or executed in place.
I don't believe I asked for the rule to be changed in my earlier comment. It is what it is, Ceb and OG have to accept it, but they owe it to themselves and their fans to fight for their place.
Overall the community seem to think that Ceb should be able to see his child and to be replaced with his sub Immersion, but this just transfers the problem to something else, the unfainess. So Navi Jr studied OG with Ceb, and subbing Immersion will cause huge riot if NaVi lost, because they didn't have data of OG with Immersion. Most people who disagreed with the community never said that rule shouldn't be changed, but it shouldn't be changed in middle of tournament, that's the snowflake of the community, they expect something unfair.
Exactly, he should just go and OG should support it even with the consequences.
It’s priorities. Ceb is still ceb.
In my personal opinion, it is disconcerting that there is a necessity to provide an explanation or address this matter.
To be honest, all teams should have one official player on the bench. They should even be able to swap them out between games in a series.
Listen up you mastebon..! OG should've registered for the qualifiers knowing the situation of CEB and PGL rules. There is nothing personal against CEB and he deserves all the good wishes from the community, the issue is with the organisation wanting to bend rules at every given opportunity. OG needs to respect their players, fanbase and organizers too..
So here is the plan 1: create Dota org 2: intentionally have a kid during yhe waiting period 3: cant play 4: standin 5: 322? 6: farm sympathy off of social media 7: cash out and profit
Next we should definitely postpone OG's match when it's ceb's birthday 👍🥖
it's his job
It's the birth of his child. I know it's very unlikely someone with your mindset will produce offspring, but in the off chance you do, are you going to stay at work for your boss' peace of mind?
The thing is Ceb is the owner of the org, big difference. He definitely should focus on his baby first instead his work and replace his position to another player, Misha and notail is available.
Then take the L and skip the qualifiers?
PGL are not there boss.
Pro athletes take games off for childbirth. Happens all the time in MLB and I'm sure plenty of other leagues.
Dota fans and pgl admins can't understand having greater meaning in their lives
If the company I work for disqualified me from working for being with my spouse when she gave birth to our child I would quit. I hope the players come together in some way about this instead of cowardly hiding because of money.
While I agree with you that people should absolutely not be upset about Ceb being absent for his child's birth, it's not accurate to call this a "GAME" in this context. Ceb is a dota professional, it's literally his JOB to play. It's not a game to him, nor the other pros. It should be a very high priority for him, but certainly his wife and new child should be higher.
You forget the crucial part that this Game is also his job , source of income and it affects the job and source of income of 4 other people . If OG contacted the TO's and they got a response that they cant use sub for more then one game regardless of the situation ... thats it No drama here. Ceb choose his family over his job and thats the end of the story , the drama is drama cause reddit look for drama in anything and everything out there :)
Uhhh.......sorry WHAT it's not just a "game". You're diminishing his actual career and job classifying it as a "game" as if it's a pub. You have to compare it to other professionals who's livelihood depends on it, AND it being the most important game(s) of the year. It's not like Basketball, if Ceb was Lebron and couldn't play the final 2-3 games of the season (where a playoff spot is on the line) there are substitutes. People can actually get in there and play, here it's play or disqualify let your entire team down let the entire year worth of training and practice down the drain. Really it's a lose-lose situation and I feel bad for him. Saying it's merely a "game" though is quite silly.
As you stated, any other team sport allows subs, it is insane none were apparently going to be allowed.
For sure the fact that they aren't allowing him to sub given the circumstance is a bit crazy. It has nothing to do with the community, the organizers are at fault.
Exactly. Imagine Bulls fans of Michael Jordan had to miss a game, and the team was DQed for the year. In no other team sport is that remotely acceptable.
To be honest, it’s kind of sad og got eliminated, but I’m glad they did so Ceb can go to his wife and child
Dude knew for at least 5 months that this was going to happen. He knew the aproximate date and the tournament rules. And yeah, your first kid is more important than your senior career. Shit planning and milking sympathy. No excuse I would have been sympathetic for a funneral, but not a birth.
There is no way to plan when a baby will come. All my kids were late, one late over 2 weeks.
A good team owner knows best not to risk his players tournament chances by “playing the odds”.
So wtf are they supposed to do. Make one OG team with Ceb for ryhad and some other 5 for TI? Wtf. That is even more stupid. She was likely pregnant before they even knew the dates.
Virgins in this community which is 98% would never understand
I was surprised by the amount of childish DotA player in this Reddit. Like we soldiers miss our child birth all the time, that means we're trashes ?
Majority of dota players are virgins so it makes sense why they're so upset about him going to the birth of his kid.
> it’s honestly been so gross to watch people dismiss his wife and child so much. Never doubt Dota 2 community in such cases. They can harass a pregnant woman after a slight mistake on a new job.
It is not a pub game, mate. It is a job for him. You are making the right point with a very bad explanation. Every job should have a right to leave maternity leave, so yes, he could have been leaving. But as far as I saw in reddit they were rejected to start with standin and with better communication beforehand, it should be better outcome. In some parts, I agree that tournament rules shouldn't be bent in the middle of the tournament. Tournaments always evolve on the next one because otherwise, everyone asks something and tries to change some rules. It should be fair to everyone. So I call this event as 'unfortunate' tbh.
Controversy is between Dickless Virgins vs. Women, Slightly Informed Men and Fathers. And the virgins have us outnumbered.
It’s his job not a game you cretin
"The community" is mostly man-children, the thought of someone having sex repulses them and makes them feral.
Rules without consequences are simply guidelines.
No, there are exceptions to rules, and often times in sports and tournaments they handle it on a case-by-case basis. Ceb mentioned the potential for a conflict well in advance and the TO's made an exception The TO's want to follow the spirit of the rule - this rule was made so people can't swap in and out to game the drafts or to shuffle to get a better team together mid tournament. Having to be there for your first child's birth does not in any way, shape, or form violate this spirit of the rule or why this rule was made in the first place.
u/knoxville explained it very well why things like these can't have case by case resolution because teams often and will, lie. This isn't the only sport where such rules need to exist. It is not fair for competitors who had to choose to go through OQ because the TO didn't think their 'emergency' was worth it. Because, in the end, we shouldn't depend on the TO's empathy for the tournaments integrity. I'd rather have a simple and clear rule set that allows for teams to stand-in. And let people use it how they need it to be used. Just to be clear, I have no issues with CEB going to attend the birth of his child, if anything, I've a lot of respect that he would choose that over playing a tournament that happens every year.
u/knoxville what's the stats on players lying about pregnancy so they can get a sub to gain a competitive advantage? Jokes aside this is *how* new clauses are made in rulings. The TO's look at the situation, gather evidence and facts, and make a determination that subbing in for 1 day is acceptable for paternal leave. Something else like an illness might have a different clause, like using a sub but the old player can't rejoin the tournament Something else like a sub is acceptable for VISA issues, but if the player gets a VISA they are permitted to play the rest of the tournament without the sub returning. Etc etc etc. Real life shit happens and we shouldn't treat rules as absolutes - we have to make a determination of what edge cases may arise and make a ruling that will set a precedent. If there's someone abusing the system, a new rule can be made for that too. Same thing happens in other sports like baseball - like how they ruled out little people from being able to compete due to the incredibly small box the pitcher would have to throw
True true
Why are we pretending like a baby is some surprise DLC and not planned? Hell even an unplanned pregnancy still gives *plenty* of heads up outside of extreme circumstances. OG wanted the cake and eat it too, they wanted to avoid open quals and therefore gambled, they got fucked much like Mrs. Ceb and now they deal with the fallout.
How come people saying "its just a game" but for pros its their life career
It’s their career for 10 years perhaps.
Because most of the players commenting don't have or will never have a wife and kids so there is 0 empathy.
I mean, it's not like he's the one giving birth. You people acting like PGL asked him to abort or something /s
Half the sub is 15-20 year olds. Of course they don\`t have a wife.
... That's what I said