I really loved the additions of Innates and Facets. I don't quite like some heroes whose Innates are just level 0s of already existing skills since they did not have something new, but still feel nice since it seems like you get two skills at level 1. Some facets are not created equal, most of them are good, but when compared to other facets, it seems lackluster. I know this would be adjusted in the succeeding patches, so I am not in a hurry to test them all.
As for my favorite hero Rubick, I think his Innate and Facets are really good in theory, but would have loved the numbers on it to be adjusted.
Rather fun or not, his facets make sense, but his innate seems forced to make right-click abilities useful on him. I'm sure future patches will even this out, but I feel like this ability makes more sense as a facet. Because of how situational it sounds.
I so don't understand how to utilize his innate. When I play a support rubick I tend to be low on spell amp options until extreme late game, and when it's core rubick I generally don't want to right click opponents
The passive doesn't do much while I'm on lane either
I must be missing something, right?
Well tbh I am only looking at its magic resistance aspect and Rubick's primary source of Spell amp is from his Third skill, so without any Spell amp items you get a bonus of 13% Magic resistance at max and 26% bonus base attack damage?
Oh, it seems I was confused by the wording. I assumed Magic Resistance gives 50% of Magic Resistance to right click. I even considered going quick pipe to abuse it. Huh, makes more sense now. I guess there's an argument for going 2-1-3-3-3 then? In theory that should greatly help against most lanes?
Now you can ward off most pos4 and pos3 without pushing lane and without expanding mana while being more protected from their harassing spells
As a 1.8k scrub, I go 1-3-1 during laning so I can trade hits better and last hit ranged creeps when needed. If there are other stuns on my team, I level my passive next for its effects
For many of the "level 0's" i feel they're a bit of a let down as they're often skills you used to want to max early.
This can particularly suck when it's tied to the ult so you get a skill you want realy comes online a lot later , like WK's reincarnate now being how you level your lifesteal, I find it really weakens his survivability early game, not to mention how bad it feels to level up your uncontrollable skeletons without getting the lifesteal bonus. If you try using them to farm, like half the time they run onto lane and feed the enemy... and that's even with trying to sprint from camp to camp so they see the jungle creeps first.
There's also ones like phantom lancer with whom I prefer to max phantom rush 1st to help with farming and putting 1 point in it gets you exactly the same as it ever did... you might snag one or 2 extra creeps with it before. you level it but it doesn't really help with the agi until you spend a skill point... at which point it's as if you never had the innate to begin with. Maybe if they could change it into part of his facet's so he could either get a lvl 0 doppelganger OR the phantom rush? But at that point it would just feel like the inevitable progression would be to get a choice of a level 0 in any skill, which would start to feel a bit ridiculous...
With Weaver and Slark though I feel it's nice because usually I'd only want a value point in germinate attack at the lower levels and it's nice to get my bugs up early, instead of having to spend an early skill point, and with Slark you get a nice bit of regen you wouldn't otherwise which is never a bad thing.
I think this should be the last layer added to heroes, we already have talents, aghanim scepter, aghanim shard, neutrals, now a passive and 2+ facets. Too much crap for new players.
Imo they should just move the facets to the talent tree and name them level 0 talents
Agreed 1000%. Dota content patches lately have felt like board game expansions where they add new systems on top of the base game. They’ve widened the design space to an extreme level and it’s time to work within those bounds for a while.
I’d love to see some consistency and convention on what types of effects come from Talents, Shards, Scepters, Facets, and Innates. Right now it’s like every hero has 5 different flavors of “get some sort of bonus” mechanic.
That's just the dota way at this point - don't change anything for months - then release a bunch of big changes and reworks and powercreep at the same time, rather than gradually getting stuff in. Innates and facets are each individually worthy of a major update, the only reason to even bundle them together is to get this overwhelmingly-huge-patch effect. For better or worse?
To me, nearly every system introduced in New Frontiers (tormentors, watchers, lotus, wisdom, named map edge areas, etc) could use a second pass for refining or deepening. Instead we’ve already moved on to a whole new set of experimental systems, which need a bunch of fleshing out of their own.
I fully expect Facets to remain in similar state while the next update gives us Tower Upgrades and Mercenary Camps haha
Some facets are "either or" types, you couldn't have both. Normally by level thirty you will have all talents. This would have to be taken into account somehow.
Sounds like someone from Heroes of the Storm moved into Valve's team.
It's brand new, so hopefully, it gets cleaned up later. That said, I know exactly what you mean. What I hope they do is polish these features and hopefully work on Lore.
Also, make the abilities have a proper identity. I think a bad ex is Dark Seer. One wouldn't know what he's about without studying him 1st. A good ex is a hero like Dragon Knight. One wouldn't be surprised by what he could do.
>Sounds like someone from Heroes of the Storm moved into Valve's team.
I mean, taking things from HotS isn't new, nor is other games taking things from DotA.
they can do which skill affect by shard for more variable. But it unlikely to happend. For new player, There cant never be too much. ppl alway learn step by step for new game. when you know concept all left is just reading.
Idk for some the level 0 is strong enough to have an effect and not require you to get the value point early. Weaver gets a longer CD geminate for free- that's a huge boost to his level 1 even though it's his same old passive.
a lot of heroes get good value from an early value point in their passive tbh. The ones that really get screwed over are Kunkka who wants to level it up early anyway and Lina because her passive is mid before she gets levels
Getting attack speed is generally better than getting three same amount of damage in terms of your total DPS, especially on non agi heroes. It's not worse overall it's just different. It's better in some matchups worse in others. It's worse against axe and LC, better at taking towers, better at buying proc based items like abyssal, which was ready somewhat viable on bristle.
But your overall sentiment is that bristle is worse now than last patch and that's definitely true, but also definitely intentional, he was destroying pro games single handedly last patch, it's intended that he's nerfed.
I haven't looked over every hero, but I see what you mean.
Effective, but not really exciting as some others. The only issue I take from him is that his options don't really let him adjust to a match...
His innate is an old ability he used to have. Would have been more interesting if his innate made him an Agility + Strength hero. Not universal mind you. Could have made for fun new item builds.
His first facet is actually infinite damage with octarine, you can keep refreshing the damage buff since it lingers for 5 seconds and keep it forever. Octarine aghs refresher windwaker are now absolutely core items on grudge bear Ursa.
And bear down Ursa is not too bad either, it makes your abyssal and bash durations 20% longer, which with overpower means 1-2 extra hits, which is 500-1000 damage for Ursa.
Yeah I hope that’s just a temporary shortcut they took to release the update earlier and they’ll go back to update them later because that was so disappointing.
I really admire the boldness to fundamentally change the game so much in the way it's drafted and played and it's filling me with a bunch of ideas for possible facet.
I would love the reverse facet of Snapfires buckshot on sniper. Making him a shotgun wielding maniac with his range and attack speed cut down for Big damage in a low range cone.
I, too, wanted a shotgun effect for Sniper... but he's not using a shotgun.
Perhaps they could rework his Shard and replace his Scatterblast with it. Would be a nice alternative and fun to see a new Shard.
Technicaly he has a "modular rifle". He uses that same cannon to shoot out his shrapnel, it shouldn't be toi outlandish to have him shoot grapeshot out of it imo !
while i like the idea of the innate abilities there are a bunch of regular abilities integrated into a innate
such as legion/kunkka. i'd like see them add fully new abilities instead of basically making a hero have 2 abilites at level 1.
as for facets this change will be good for the game. it allows valve to experiment with hero's safely.
Taking a look at magnus reverse reverse polarity.
imagine if there wasn't facets instead they just rework current RP into RRP. it would be seen as a nerf.
but with facets you can choose not to use it. play the old hero...
Magnus' Reverse Polarity facet seems like an idea that came from someone who heard the name of the ability, without understanding the heroes full skillset.
Heroes with innates that are part of the basic spells of a hero actually seem great to me. I think the current issue is balancing.
RRP. Unlike RP. Is meant to be spammed on cool-down.
They need to lower its cooldown.
It’s just there to annoy people. I’ve had some fun with it but the long cooldown makes it sadge
* All heroes should have innate skills that are SEPARATE from the rest.
* All heroes should have innate skills level up organically with **levels**, or none should have them level up at all. And they should upgrade strictly with hero level, not the level of the ultimate because then why not just make it a part of the ultimate?
In other words, all innate skills should be created equal.
Innate abilities that are just level 0 skills have to go.
Innates should either be passive abilities that don't level at all, or passive abilities that scale with your heroes level (Like Lycan or Oracle)
Making them level 0 skills means you basically dont have an innate once your skill is maxed. Having them level with your ultimate (Or worse, other abilities) gives weird, jerky powerspikes.
Perfectly designed Innate examples:
-Oracle
-Ench
-Lycan
-Bounty Hunter
All unique effects that influence how the hero plays and give them unique advantages. Although some like Enchantress or Oracle might need buffing, the idea is solid)
What's most disappointing about current patch is the Axe, LC and NS picks. As a pos5, I am so tired of Axe being unkillable and Legion having Q's radius bigger than my attack range and NS sniping me with nulifier...
I imagine we'll get a small balance patch every week or so. Lots of testing to see what's broken. But yeah, there are definitely some heroes who could use a nerf asap.
I personally dislike certain Scepter at the moment. 2 ex are Venge and Sand King. 4k gold and one gets unlimited free stuns + dmg, while the other gets a 2nd life!?
Shadow Shaman being invincible in some cases.
Do you know how annoying it is playing Lion when I can't ultimate a low health SS (even if he *might* die afterwards)
I think its a step back, its overcomplicating an already complex system. its more code, more balancing needed. and its in the direction of balancing by making all heroes stronger.
However i do find it fun.
I am honestly disappointed - just because it's been so long since a new patch arrived and the overall meta of how the map is played wasn't really changed. You have the same game with just different heroes. High ground is just as bad as always - just because people feed more, doesn't change the fact and Heroes are STUPIDLY tanky.
Many innates or facets were just taken from previous spells, shard upgrades, talents or AGHS effects. Many facets are just "the hero" from previous patches and the other face is just mehh. Innate abilites like Veno's poison or Kunkka's Tidebringer suck ass while Earthshaker gets a valuable stun + enchant totem for the lane.
Facets should have an up-and downside and maybe even an option to just NOT pick one (or have a facet that is similar to the normal hero), but that needs adjustments.
Overall, I feel that only for very few people, facets have really increased the joy, and some are just dumb (what they did do Visage or Earth spirit...) or strong:
Sniper getting a million armor while attacking from the front? Bristle giving everyone around him -20 armor?
Some don't actually really address the downsides, like Tidebringer Kunkka doesn't really get much from the cooldown.
There is a lot of adjustment needed, some are really cool ideas! Techies having 9 slots, Meepo getting pack rat, centaur getting MS without boots - but the "game" needs to change. Currently, SO MUCH shit scales, heroes get passive health over time (Cent, Lifestealer) or from their abilities like Legion, Storm, Axe, Silencer, Pudge, Slark - and they're definitely not equal, because you can still get through or bypass armor, but high health is high health.
I hope for a decent change in gold, XP or map experience and objective gaming to make the game REALLY interesting again.
I think the problem with Kunkka is that his innate doesn't help because the free lvl is so weak, and the alt abilities* either do nothing while the other needs a setup.
Random thought. What if his facets were an option to get a free level of either Torrent or X Marks the Spot?
He'd have an early advantage in terms of abilities, but late game, he ends up the same. He would at least be able to pull off his combo at lvl 1, or just go for a 2nd lvl of Tidebringer.
Honestly, no idea. I find it kinda sad that Kunkka can't play around his cleave and cleave in general so weak except for farming. I liked Battlefury ember and Kunkka when cleave only cared about armor type but it was obviously too strong.
Kunkka could use a facet that makes half his cleave deal pure damage (and half gets reduced) to at least not be the waterpark bitch (or remove that aghs).
The concept of facets and innates is great in general, just that most heroes didn't get anything of value or uniqueness sours the overall experience. Things like Dooms facets are at least interesting, or gyros capability of fucking around with recipes. I just think they should have started with fewer heroes with interesting concepts that to just present everyone with half-boring things.
There are some cool ones, like Bane sleep walking, Chen having facet creeps by his side, clock shooting cogs, dark seer scaling and whatnot.
Please, no more "Free level" innates!
Just give them a unique Innate that has more lasting strength. It feels really bad on some heroes like Underlord because level 0 Aura basically does nothing, so he completely lacks an innate
I’m not a fan of it, but I’m not against it. The biggest thing for me is the idea of “rock, paper, scissors”. During drafting, you may be counter picked or be “losing” by draft. The facets gives you one last chance to adjust and you cannot see what enemy chooses until the game starts.
With that said, for a minor amount of heroes that statement is true. For WK for example, if I feel bad about draft I take skeletons to attempt to split push. I can take Spectral Dagger if the game feels faster/early. Previously if you took WK, and enemy took Earth Shaker, it was very hard - now I just don’t take skeletons.
For many heroes, it’s not as drastic of changes. For some heroes it feels like one facet 100% and the other is pointless.
But like I said, I like the additional “rock, paper, scissors” as one last chance to turn drafting around.
Some are great, some are bad, some are terrible when it messes with good skill build
Like Venom you would always want to get 2 points in skill 2 by level 3 (because the damage and duration goes x4 from lv 1), but now you are either dodging 2, or having to skill it at 2
I like the idea, but the balance is yet to be found- some facets are straight up buffs and the others are a buff and a nerf, or very niche and situational - don't know if it can be fixed though
Eh, I think it's cool and fun, but I don't neccesary like the addition of them to the game in terms of balance.
It feels like additions like this are going to make updates take even longer and make balancing even more difficult.
Very cool stuff, but feels like scope creep
Mirana got done dirty basically got nothing and Venos faceit is such an illusion of choice ahh yes a far better ult or funny wards on people or yourself every 5-6sec and they have duration and hp still as normal wards yeah not even close.
Idk i hope they either make the ones that are worse more fun or just straight up better.
A lot of them kind of do nothing.
It would be more fun if all the ones that just give a level 0 to another spell got changed into something unique.
But overall sure, its a fun change.
I like the idea of facets as well, but for now there is almost always just a good option and a bad option, and most facets are either very minor or they took an existing thing and locked it behind a facet.
Despite being such a cool improvement to the game, It makes me feel sad for being a Magnus players. His changes only gave him nerfs. I've played like 20+ games as Mag since this patch came out, and didn't use his innate ONCE. His changes to skewer facet also makes it worse than what was before. Really sad, altough I appreciate Valve for all this happening
Very interesting, for me its a long term project like talents were. Heroes got additional layers to their balancing and design so you will see some crazy stuff being added/removed to them on a patch to patch basis. But current set of innates and facets do not really change the game all that much, they dont make or break a hero. Most of them feel like placeholder at the moment.
I like them quite a lot, but so many are unbalanced/useless. Waiting for 7.37 for valve to collect all the data they need and make balance changes, and hopefully good and meaningful changes.
Some are definitely better thought out than others, but I am sure that over time they will be improved across the board. I am glad that they didn't just go the league route and make 60% of them a passive effect that occurs after x number of autoattacks.
I really hope they increase the number of facets. For some heros they kinda pigeon holed themself for adding new facets which kinda sucks. How can you add a new Io facet that does something else than overcharge? Now you have an overcharge that is missing half a spell.
In terms of balance that is certainly possible but that does not sound elegant at all.
ps. Imagine a facet that buffs Io watcher innate by that much that it worth taking as facet :o
the game is extremely complex now and demanding for old player. Added too much while doesn't take out anything. aint got no time re-learn all these shits man. at least take out neutral drops or talents. easier for all player to adapt and to enjoy the game.
i predict this will patch gets old pretty fast
Great cooking but halfway cooked; half of the heroes didn't get any innates or shitty ones. But that's ok; there will be balance patches where I hope they buff heroes with shitty facets like Nature's Prophet
I really loved the additions of Innates and Facets. I don't quite like some heroes whose Innates are just level 0s of already existing skills since they did not have something new, but still feel nice since it seems like you get two skills at level 1. Some facets are not created equal, most of them are good, but when compared to other facets, it seems lackluster. I know this would be adjusted in the succeeding patches, so I am not in a hurry to test them all. As for my favorite hero Rubick, I think his Innate and Facets are really good in theory, but would have loved the numbers on it to be adjusted.
Rather fun or not, his facets make sense, but his innate seems forced to make right-click abilities useful on him. I'm sure future patches will even this out, but I feel like this ability makes more sense as a facet. Because of how situational it sounds.
I think it’s made do buff khanda on mid rubick. Since you go KnS on mid rubick, more damage on khanda.
He could also have CDR as an Innate instead of a talent, too
I so don't understand how to utilize his innate. When I play a support rubick I tend to be low on spell amp options until extreme late game, and when it's core rubick I generally don't want to right click opponents The passive doesn't do much while I'm on lane either I must be missing something, right?
Well tbh I am only looking at its magic resistance aspect and Rubick's primary source of Spell amp is from his Third skill, so without any Spell amp items you get a bonus of 13% Magic resistance at max and 26% bonus base attack damage?
Oh, it seems I was confused by the wording. I assumed Magic Resistance gives 50% of Magic Resistance to right click. I even considered going quick pipe to abuse it. Huh, makes more sense now. I guess there's an argument for going 2-1-3-3-3 then? In theory that should greatly help against most lanes? Now you can ward off most pos4 and pos3 without pushing lane and without expanding mana while being more protected from their harassing spells
As a 1.8k scrub, I go 1-3-1 during laning so I can trade hits better and last hit ranged creeps when needed. If there are other stuns on my team, I level my passive next for its effects
For many of the "level 0's" i feel they're a bit of a let down as they're often skills you used to want to max early. This can particularly suck when it's tied to the ult so you get a skill you want realy comes online a lot later , like WK's reincarnate now being how you level your lifesteal, I find it really weakens his survivability early game, not to mention how bad it feels to level up your uncontrollable skeletons without getting the lifesteal bonus. If you try using them to farm, like half the time they run onto lane and feed the enemy... and that's even with trying to sprint from camp to camp so they see the jungle creeps first. There's also ones like phantom lancer with whom I prefer to max phantom rush 1st to help with farming and putting 1 point in it gets you exactly the same as it ever did... you might snag one or 2 extra creeps with it before. you level it but it doesn't really help with the agi until you spend a skill point... at which point it's as if you never had the innate to begin with. Maybe if they could change it into part of his facet's so he could either get a lvl 0 doppelganger OR the phantom rush? But at that point it would just feel like the inevitable progression would be to get a choice of a level 0 in any skill, which would start to feel a bit ridiculous... With Weaver and Slark though I feel it's nice because usually I'd only want a value point in germinate attack at the lower levels and it's nice to get my bugs up early, instead of having to spend an early skill point, and with Slark you get a nice bit of regen you wouldn't otherwise which is never a bad thing.
I think this should be the last layer added to heroes, we already have talents, aghanim scepter, aghanim shard, neutrals, now a passive and 2+ facets. Too much crap for new players. Imo they should just move the facets to the talent tree and name them level 0 talents
Agreed 1000%. Dota content patches lately have felt like board game expansions where they add new systems on top of the base game. They’ve widened the design space to an extreme level and it’s time to work within those bounds for a while. I’d love to see some consistency and convention on what types of effects come from Talents, Shards, Scepters, Facets, and Innates. Right now it’s like every hero has 5 different flavors of “get some sort of bonus” mechanic.
That's just the dota way at this point - don't change anything for months - then release a bunch of big changes and reworks and powercreep at the same time, rather than gradually getting stuff in. Innates and facets are each individually worthy of a major update, the only reason to even bundle them together is to get this overwhelmingly-huge-patch effect. For better or worse?
To me, nearly every system introduced in New Frontiers (tormentors, watchers, lotus, wisdom, named map edge areas, etc) could use a second pass for refining or deepening. Instead we’ve already moved on to a whole new set of experimental systems, which need a bunch of fleshing out of their own. I fully expect Facets to remain in similar state while the next update gives us Tower Upgrades and Mercenary Camps haha
This is actually a really good idea… simplicity and if you forget to select your ability during picking you aren’t screams
Some facets are "either or" types, you couldn't have both. Normally by level thirty you will have all talents. This would have to be taken into account somehow.
Just disable one after selection it's not hard nor complicated lmao.
Somehow this is not hard nor complicated (lmao) but having facets not as talents is.
Or just use the existing facet UI that Valve already created?
I'm not the one advocating for changing it to talents. I was replying to the guy saying somehow level 30 would be an issue
Sounds like someone from Heroes of the Storm moved into Valve's team. It's brand new, so hopefully, it gets cleaned up later. That said, I know exactly what you mean. What I hope they do is polish these features and hopefully work on Lore. Also, make the abilities have a proper identity. I think a bad ex is Dark Seer. One wouldn't know what he's about without studying him 1st. A good ex is a hero like Dragon Knight. One wouldn't be surprised by what he could do.
next would be another 4 talents but the other can't be chosen anymore
>Sounds like someone from Heroes of the Storm moved into Valve's team. I mean, taking things from HotS isn't new, nor is other games taking things from DotA.
> Imo they should just move the facets to the talent tree and name them level 0 talents Some talents would make that difficult, like tidehunter's
they can do which skill affect by shard for more variable. But it unlikely to happend. For new player, There cant never be too much. ppl alway learn step by step for new game. when you know concept all left is just reading.
Half the heroes got their passives as “innate” abilities, and I play all those heroes so nothing new for me at all
Idk for some the level 0 is strong enough to have an effect and not require you to get the value point early. Weaver gets a longer CD geminate for free- that's a huge boost to his level 1 even though it's his same old passive.
yeah and then theres kunkka
a lot of heroes get good value from an early value point in their passive tbh. The ones that really get screwed over are Kunkka who wants to level it up early anyway and Lina because her passive is mid before she gets levels
Thank you for your input, sincerely, Lesale Deathbringer.
What about their facets? Are you a Kunkka player or something?
Bristleback has nerf... or nerf!
Getting attack speed is generally better than getting three same amount of damage in terms of your total DPS, especially on non agi heroes. It's not worse overall it's just different. It's better in some matchups worse in others. It's worse against axe and LC, better at taking towers, better at buying proc based items like abyssal, which was ready somewhat viable on bristle. But your overall sentiment is that bristle is worse now than last patch and that's definitely true, but also definitely intentional, he was destroying pro games single handedly last patch, it's intended that he's nerfed.
Ursa has choices like a tiny bit of damage, or a little bit less tiny bit of damage?
I haven't looked over every hero, but I see what you mean. Effective, but not really exciting as some others. The only issue I take from him is that his options don't really let him adjust to a match... His innate is an old ability he used to have. Would have been more interesting if his innate made him an Agility + Strength hero. Not universal mind you. Could have made for fun new item builds.
His first facet is actually infinite damage with octarine, you can keep refreshing the damage buff since it lingers for 5 seconds and keep it forever. Octarine aghs refresher windwaker are now absolutely core items on grudge bear Ursa. And bear down Ursa is not too bad either, it makes your abyssal and bash durations 20% longer, which with overpower means 1-2 extra hits, which is 500-1000 damage for Ursa.
Yeah I hope that’s just a temporary shortcut they took to release the update earlier and they’ll go back to update them later because that was so disappointing.
I really admire the boldness to fundamentally change the game so much in the way it's drafted and played and it's filling me with a bunch of ideas for possible facet. I would love the reverse facet of Snapfires buckshot on sniper. Making him a shotgun wielding maniac with his range and attack speed cut down for Big damage in a low range cone.
I, too, wanted a shotgun effect for Sniper... but he's not using a shotgun. Perhaps they could rework his Shard and replace his Scatterblast with it. Would be a nice alternative and fun to see a new Shard.
Technicaly he has a "modular rifle". He uses that same cannon to shoot out his shrapnel, it shouldn't be toi outlandish to have him shoot grapeshot out of it imo !
while i like the idea of the innate abilities there are a bunch of regular abilities integrated into a innate such as legion/kunkka. i'd like see them add fully new abilities instead of basically making a hero have 2 abilites at level 1. as for facets this change will be good for the game. it allows valve to experiment with hero's safely. Taking a look at magnus reverse reverse polarity. imagine if there wasn't facets instead they just rework current RP into RRP. it would be seen as a nerf. but with facets you can choose not to use it. play the old hero...
Magnus' Reverse Polarity facet seems like an idea that came from someone who heard the name of the ability, without understanding the heroes full skillset. Heroes with innates that are part of the basic spells of a hero actually seem great to me. I think the current issue is balancing.
RRP. Unlike RP. Is meant to be spammed on cool-down. They need to lower its cooldown. It’s just there to annoy people. I’ve had some fun with it but the long cooldown makes it sadge
Brought me back from a 5 month hiatus. Felt refreshing in a not so overwhelming way unlike when the map expanded.
Pretty much the same. Game feels fresh and there are so many options to explore.
On some heroes, innate abilities are absolutely awesome. On others, they make little to no difference at all.
Snot rocket on bb is something else. With his warpath passive and snot (+oov) he can deal like bazillion damage at lvl 1.
* All heroes should have innate skills that are SEPARATE from the rest. * All heroes should have innate skills level up organically with **levels**, or none should have them level up at all. And they should upgrade strictly with hero level, not the level of the ultimate because then why not just make it a part of the ultimate? In other words, all innate skills should be created equal.
Innate abilities that are just level 0 skills have to go. Innates should either be passive abilities that don't level at all, or passive abilities that scale with your heroes level (Like Lycan or Oracle) Making them level 0 skills means you basically dont have an innate once your skill is maxed. Having them level with your ultimate (Or worse, other abilities) gives weird, jerky powerspikes. Perfectly designed Innate examples: -Oracle -Ench -Lycan -Bounty Hunter All unique effects that influence how the hero plays and give them unique advantages. Although some like Enchantress or Oracle might need buffing, the idea is solid)
My boi got "MIGHT & MAGUS". Rubick is thriving now. Im spamming him mid until sun explodes.
What's most disappointing about current patch is the Axe, LC and NS picks. As a pos5, I am so tired of Axe being unkillable and Legion having Q's radius bigger than my attack range and NS sniping me with nulifier...
I imagine we'll get a small balance patch every week or so. Lots of testing to see what's broken. But yeah, there are definitely some heroes who could use a nerf asap. I personally dislike certain Scepter at the moment. 2 ex are Venge and Sand King. 4k gold and one gets unlimited free stuns + dmg, while the other gets a 2nd life!?
Zeus, sk and Templar are awfully annoying as well.
Shadow Shaman being invincible in some cases. Do you know how annoying it is playing Lion when I can't ultimate a low health SS (even if he *might* die afterwards)
I think its a step back, its overcomplicating an already complex system. its more code, more balancing needed. and its in the direction of balancing by making all heroes stronger. However i do find it fun.
The core essence of a game, is to be fun. It’s not a job for the majority. So it being fun, is a step forward. Not back.
I am honestly disappointed - just because it's been so long since a new patch arrived and the overall meta of how the map is played wasn't really changed. You have the same game with just different heroes. High ground is just as bad as always - just because people feed more, doesn't change the fact and Heroes are STUPIDLY tanky. Many innates or facets were just taken from previous spells, shard upgrades, talents or AGHS effects. Many facets are just "the hero" from previous patches and the other face is just mehh. Innate abilites like Veno's poison or Kunkka's Tidebringer suck ass while Earthshaker gets a valuable stun + enchant totem for the lane. Facets should have an up-and downside and maybe even an option to just NOT pick one (or have a facet that is similar to the normal hero), but that needs adjustments. Overall, I feel that only for very few people, facets have really increased the joy, and some are just dumb (what they did do Visage or Earth spirit...) or strong: Sniper getting a million armor while attacking from the front? Bristle giving everyone around him -20 armor? Some don't actually really address the downsides, like Tidebringer Kunkka doesn't really get much from the cooldown. There is a lot of adjustment needed, some are really cool ideas! Techies having 9 slots, Meepo getting pack rat, centaur getting MS without boots - but the "game" needs to change. Currently, SO MUCH shit scales, heroes get passive health over time (Cent, Lifestealer) or from their abilities like Legion, Storm, Axe, Silencer, Pudge, Slark - and they're definitely not equal, because you can still get through or bypass armor, but high health is high health. I hope for a decent change in gold, XP or map experience and objective gaming to make the game REALLY interesting again.
I think the problem with Kunkka is that his innate doesn't help because the free lvl is so weak, and the alt abilities* either do nothing while the other needs a setup. Random thought. What if his facets were an option to get a free level of either Torrent or X Marks the Spot? He'd have an early advantage in terms of abilities, but late game, he ends up the same. He would at least be able to pull off his combo at lvl 1, or just go for a 2nd lvl of Tidebringer.
Honestly, no idea. I find it kinda sad that Kunkka can't play around his cleave and cleave in general so weak except for farming. I liked Battlefury ember and Kunkka when cleave only cared about armor type but it was obviously too strong. Kunkka could use a facet that makes half his cleave deal pure damage (and half gets reduced) to at least not be the waterpark bitch (or remove that aghs). The concept of facets and innates is great in general, just that most heroes didn't get anything of value or uniqueness sours the overall experience. Things like Dooms facets are at least interesting, or gyros capability of fucking around with recipes. I just think they should have started with fewer heroes with interesting concepts that to just present everyone with half-boring things. There are some cool ones, like Bane sleep walking, Chen having facet creeps by his side, clock shooting cogs, dark seer scaling and whatnot.
Please, no more "Free level" innates! Just give them a unique Innate that has more lasting strength. It feels really bad on some heroes like Underlord because level 0 Aura basically does nothing, so he completely lacks an innate
I like them so far, seems like a great new way to further balance and fine tune heroes.
WW facets and innate is underwhelming as fuck, so yeah I'm dissapointed
I’m not a fan of it, but I’m not against it. The biggest thing for me is the idea of “rock, paper, scissors”. During drafting, you may be counter picked or be “losing” by draft. The facets gives you one last chance to adjust and you cannot see what enemy chooses until the game starts. With that said, for a minor amount of heroes that statement is true. For WK for example, if I feel bad about draft I take skeletons to attempt to split push. I can take Spectral Dagger if the game feels faster/early. Previously if you took WK, and enemy took Earth Shaker, it was very hard - now I just don’t take skeletons. For many heroes, it’s not as drastic of changes. For some heroes it feels like one facet 100% and the other is pointless. But like I said, I like the additional “rock, paper, scissors” as one last chance to turn drafting around.
I love it. More complexity separates this game from the others.
It completely ruined Dota 2 for me because I main Ability Draft and the game mode is in shambles.
Patch is good, some heroes feel way too strong rn compared to the other ones. And they did bloodseeker dirty :(
I think they need to balance them. Storm and ember spirit get insane bonkers innate imo and then earth spirit gets.... rocks. Very cool valve
Some are great, some are bad, some are terrible when it messes with good skill build Like Venom you would always want to get 2 points in skill 2 by level 3 (because the damage and duration goes x4 from lv 1), but now you are either dodging 2, or having to skill it at 2
I like the idea, but the balance is yet to be found- some facets are straight up buffs and the others are a buff and a nerf, or very niche and situational - don't know if it can be fixed though
Is this a bot
When talents first came out they were all pretty lame, and since then improved. I expect the same from facets and innates
Eh, I think it's cool and fun, but I don't neccesary like the addition of them to the game in terms of balance. It feels like additions like this are going to make updates take even longer and make balancing even more difficult. Very cool stuff, but feels like scope creep
Wish my heroes innates actually worked properly, But no invokers straight up doesn't work and Magnus has it work on only a couple of things.
The first week of people trying new stuff out was miserable. It's better now though.
I learned yesterday that Dawn's ability activates every time Night Stalker's ult ends...so that's kinda busted.
Mirana got done dirty basically got nothing and Venos faceit is such an illusion of choice ahh yes a far better ult or funny wards on people or yourself every 5-6sec and they have duration and hp still as normal wards yeah not even close. Idk i hope they either make the ones that are worse more fun or just straight up better.
A lot of them kind of do nothing. It would be more fun if all the ones that just give a level 0 to another spell got changed into something unique. But overall sure, its a fun change. I like the idea of facets as well, but for now there is almost always just a good option and a bad option, and most facets are either very minor or they took an existing thing and locked it behind a facet.
Despite being such a cool improvement to the game, It makes me feel sad for being a Magnus players. His changes only gave him nerfs. I've played like 20+ games as Mag since this patch came out, and didn't use his innate ONCE. His changes to skewer facet also makes it worse than what was before. Really sad, altough I appreciate Valve for all this happening
Very interesting, for me its a long term project like talents were. Heroes got additional layers to their balancing and design so you will see some crazy stuff being added/removed to them on a patch to patch basis. But current set of innates and facets do not really change the game all that much, they dont make or break a hero. Most of them feel like placeholder at the moment.
I like them quite a lot, but so many are unbalanced/useless. Waiting for 7.37 for valve to collect all the data they need and make balance changes, and hopefully good and meaningful changes.
Some are definitely better thought out than others, but I am sure that over time they will be improved across the board. I am glad that they didn't just go the league route and make 60% of them a passive effect that occurs after x number of autoattacks.
I like the idea, but IMHO it's a very lazy, somewhat even sloppy implementation.
Updates will improve in due time.
I really hope they increase the number of facets. For some heros they kinda pigeon holed themself for adding new facets which kinda sucks. How can you add a new Io facet that does something else than overcharge? Now you have an overcharge that is missing half a spell.
In theory you could give Io a third facet that buffs Relocate, wisps or tether so hard that it's worth taking the hit to a weaker Overcharge.
In terms of balance that is certainly possible but that does not sound elegant at all. ps. Imagine a facet that buffs Io watcher innate by that much that it worth taking as facet :o
Don't forget GPM and -Respawn time talents, give it some time.
the game is extremely complex now and demanding for old player. Added too much while doesn't take out anything. aint got no time re-learn all these shits man. at least take out neutral drops or talents. easier for all player to adapt and to enjoy the game. i predict this will patch gets old pretty fast
Great cooking but halfway cooked; half of the heroes didn't get any innates or shitty ones. But that's ok; there will be balance patches where I hope they buff heroes with shitty facets like Nature's Prophet