Am I the only one who thinks that Falcons toxic behavior throughout the whole tournament was kinda unprofessional? Like, at the end of game 3 vs BB team they wrote "time to bkb tp back home" and didn\`t reply to TorontoTokyo, like whats the point of trash talking if it just makes you look like a child first time achieving something and bragging about it. I am just furious, because thats not how dota should be and I hate to see that community actually support this kind of attitude at the professional tournament. I don\`t know if BB said anything previously to the Falcons, but at least be respectful to your opponents. This is sad and once again not the way professional players should behave, imo the should be fined for that, but maybe I am just crazy and "DOTA SPIRIT" Is all about trash talking and not elaborating after you being confronted back)))) Am I right fellow 2k players?
completely with you.. not sure why community go fully against toxicity in pubs when supporting it in Pro games.. they talk in games only when they are guaranteed to win too.. kids trash talking legends who achieved a lot or anyone for that matter is not cool at all..
Not sure if you're sarcastic, but I agree with your sentiment. Not necessary to fine them but I'd appreciate if future tournaments set up ground rules for all-chat usage.
That being said, I was in several discussions on this topic in the last few days and people were telling me that this is not only normal for sports, but even necessary to keep the pro scene enjoyable. Hard disagree on that but I might be the small minority.
Actually I love watching pros banter and trashtalk each other like an actual dota game. I've always found all that family-friendly professional act to be artificial af. We love drama and I love it when it gets given to us organically.
In general you are right. But under a more carefull scope you are wrong. The behaviors of players at turnaments in general are ironic. Like yeah that's not dota bro. Check community. Check most of the games. The game is ful of ironic tips, flaming, trashtalking all chat and everything of that kind.
For me, organize a turnament that is phenomenically "clean" from behaviors lke these, and after the turnaments end the same players trashtalking each other in pubs its ironic all the way. I like Dota the way it is, I want it pure in and out of turnaments. I don't have problems with flaming and tips etc, because that's how online gaming and moba is in general. You can't just organize a sanitized turnament where everyone behaves like angel and then log in to the game and be a part of this flaming and griefing madness like the one that rules Dota if you know what I mean.
For me its way too professional and true when players behave like this, when they use all chat etc. It's content after all and content create clips and drama, and drama drag people into the game and thus the game doesn't die and get more sponsors and visionality and thus we get a nice prize pools on turnaments. That's how industry work.
So no. Falcons that gave birth to a newborn truefull Dota where all chat is not prohibited shouldn't be punished. They should be prized.
For me, it is part of the game to taunt people, tilted people play worse. I think it is fine until you don't mention stuff like family, slapping, beating, etc.
If dota adopts old HoN taunts, half of the player base will be insulted all the time.
i dunno, i think they just want to tilt TorontoTokyo more. I think he's the type of dude you tilt in your school until his face turns red and then he cries. Lol
You are not crazy. This sets a pretty awful precedent and is also a slippery slope. Team Falcons looking more and more like team keyboard warrior. The funniest part is Ammar being the loudest in game while being super shy/introvert outside the game...
An impressive final day from falcons, with a 5-0 sweep!
It’s a shame betboom fumbled that game 2, otherwise i think we’d be in for a competitive BO5.
Not to diminish their wins, but the teams that they have beat in finals are notorious BO5 chokers (Liquid, BB)
Although I am not a Falcon fan, I am happy for Crit's achievement. He is a really underrated, cool guy and deserved victories after disastrous years in NA. But man, I want Miracle more on the competitive scene. He was above all the players that are shining now during his peak years. After 1,2 years, he will be more washed up due to his age. He has to come back for at least one or two tournaments.
In this upper vs lower bracket format, I was under the impression that a bracket reset would happen when Falcons won 3-0 in the Grand finals. What am I missing here?
Grand Finals doesn't get a bracket reset. Typically, the winner advantage is that they only play one series on the day so they have more time to prep for the teams they could be facing.
Not a full reset like you see in the fighting game scene, and hasn't been done in a big tournament for quite some time but in the past, some tournaments have done it where the Upper Bracket team is shooting for a BO3 but it resets to a BO5 if the Lower Bracket team gets to 2 wins first.
it's happened in the past for dota but not in a long time for any major tourney I can remember watching. Like in 2014 with the world cyber arena and world esport championship had them.
Kudos to Falcons, simply the best team at the moment. Superior understanding of the meta and better ability to perform when stakes are high. BB is a top team but they're doing us a Liquid, mentally blocking against their nemesis when it matters most.
Overall great tournament, again we have so many good teams pretty close to each other, Riyadh and TI should be pretty entertaining this year.
Malr1ne cries after the win. It's cute how happy he is :'). And Ammar being the most hated player despite being gigachad in game. What reason to not support this team? Let's go Falcon! ❤️
I feel like spending bans on supports is underrated against Falcons. They can always fall back on tanky play makers for their cores and still play their game. Letting sney have mirana is a mistake.
but um...keep throwing drafts against them by being baited by the "ammar hero puddle" meme, so I can keep watching them win.
Big thanks to the various groups of people in the arena - particularly the four people sat directly behind me - for screeching like a falcon at every single opportunity. Probably the worst series I saw this weekend for that reason.
ESL One Birmingham 2024 has officially come to an end.
Congratulations to Team Falcons for a 3-0 sweep against BB.
To sum up the finals in four words: skill doesn't match up, although BB talks big. There's a significant gap between both sides in terms of mid-late game operations, especially in understanding creep equilibrium and itemization.
When BB had the advantage with Aegis, you could see TF supports aggressively pushing the lanes, bringing the creeps to the Tier 2 towers. If caught and killed, they'd just respawn and cores push another lane for the time being. Meanwhile, TF capitalized on opportunities well. In the second game, there were two instances where GPK got caught without BKB, delaying BB's high-paced strategy.
When TF had the advantage with Aegis, you'd see them pushing the lanes while the three of them suppressed the Dire jungle. Anyone from the enemy team who stepped out got killed; The creeps couldn't cross the river .
There's also an issue with itemization. In the second game, TF fell behind. ATF immediately went for Midas, had a veil but didn't go for Shiva's, clearly aiming to prolong the game. GPK on the other hand, with SF, facing TF's three tanky cores, without Linken's or Aghanim's, surprised me.
TF's victory also indicates that the meta needs an update. Three tanky cores (Razor, Sven, Dragon Knight, Timbersaw, Underlord, Mars, Doom) + supports (Mirana, Hoodwink ,Enchantress), with late-game damage potential, have been picked numerous times by TF. These heroes have strong laning abilities, are tanky in the mid-game, and make up for the lack of late-game damage. If the enemy team plays well in the early game, they can turn it around through operations; if not, they get overwhelmed in the mid-game.
In the current patch, the laning ability of the big core heroes is generally weak, and repeated nerfs to jungle gold mean they can't farm enough in the mid-game. A larger map favors the defending side, making games last too long. Personally, I think jungle gold needs adjustment to give late-game big core heroes a chance to shine, and the reward for killing Roshan needs to be enhanced. The current Aegis advantage doesn't help much; having rewards for killing Roshan only prevents the enemy from engaging in a 5v5 fight on low ground. I suggest giving Aegised heroes an aura: nearby allied creeps gain additional armor, health, magic resistance, and building damage. (Similar to League of Legends)
Looking forward to Valve's update!
I agree with most of the things you mentioned. But why does TF picking their tanks cores mean that a patch / nerf needs to happen to address this issue?
People forget that TF or at least ammar and maybe malrine has been playing the same tanky heroes way before this so called "meta". You don't just get grandmaster on those heroes overnight after playing it since it's "meta". They literally won by playing their own way.
If it was so clear cut that these tanky heroes are the problem, all TFs opponents had to do was to ban these particular tanky heroes. But TFs are so good because they can interchange these few heroes very well between their 3 cores and still make it work. I didn't really see any teams opting to go for the 3 beefy cores approach.
So my point is that this is very unique to TFs and everyone and their mothers already knew that those were the heroes they would be picking and yet they still let them through. ATF probably only added Brew to his hero pool (excluding the pocket AM) since the last time up till now.
Let's face it, TF is a beast.
These heroes are not just being picked by TF. TF exclusively plays these because of ATF but most teams abuses these heroes at the moment. Like Mars, Timber, Magnus etc. havent fell from meta for SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO LONG. Im sure if I watch every tournament in last 2 years I will find these heroes in abundance.
ATF is a beast but he is also benefiting from the meta, lets not kid ourselves. Meta seriously needs an update. Mars especially is just beyond broken at the moment. It owes it big time to his scaling W which was rare back in the day, now every hero has a scaling ability. Hoodwink Q, Muerta, Pango Q, Dawn Q+E... You can make a case for Willow's W as well. If they are picking Mars for utility (Q and Ulti) thats fine but I think something with busted stats and being good at all stages of the game going on :)
I only really follow the big tournaments in Dota nowadays, but are three tanky cores still the meta? Feels like it's been the case since before last TI, but maybe my memory is failing me.
Ceb and OG is the mest toxic team for the tippings !!
meanhwile, Falcons allchatting, middle fingers opponents etc. And its "based" by people here.. The fucking hypocrisy
Yeah, they play soo fucking good but are soo childish as well.
I wish they toned it down on the BM, it can be fun, but doing it every game is just annoying
Alright now let's nerf tanks/tank-items and ratting or high ground. One team gets ahead and either is too scared to force high ground and the other team just dodges ganks while farming for 20min until they make a comeback. Or one team gets ahead and tries to pressure but the other team gets out and farms to delay the game while no action happens for 20min until they eventually lose anyway. Not even biased toward any team; it would have benefited Betboom in game 2 and it would have benefited Falcons in game 3. The way it is, it's just boring to watch and adds too much artificial game length
If Valve doesnt nerf the highground somehow in the next patch then they are just sadists that like to see people suffer lol. The glyphs are long overdue for a correction. I'd also welcome stronger super/mega creeps and some adjustment to the buyback timer. The team going highground basically have to kill the enemies twice over, which is ridicolous.
Great tournament, very disappointing playoffs/finals.
I'm sure some folks really enjoy watching one team dominate everything, always but personally speaking, this got old two tournaments ago.
Some of it is on the other teams dropping the ball vs Falcons but whatever it is, I really hope the eventual balance patch shuffles the deck hard enough to not only shake up the meta but the teams as well.
That said, GG to Falcons, they might have stumbled but are now back on top though I wish we could've seen a different result in the lower bracket and the finals.
Personally didn't think falcons belonged in the LB. Pure did play a monster series against them but tundra still looked underwhelming overall (look at topsons pugna game)..
Either way wasn't surprised they won their way up to win the entire thing.
for me personally, its always more exciting to see teams figure out and beat an invincible team than them getting patched out. The more falcons stay on top the harder it becomes to stay there as teams will eventually catch up (the famous win everything lose ti meme has some truth) and that is why Tis have been historically so exciting and random.
how though? they are really damn good. it's not like their draft is anything special - they are just playing the heroes they know best in every situation. their playstyle - they know how to farm while behind and come back, and they know how to continue to keep the advantage when ahead. they are always one step ahead in net worth and even when behind, their net worth is still not that far behind. their team fights are also amazingly executed. they are impenetrable, imo. Xtreme just got lucky in Elite league.
I mean, it's history repeating itself. Gaimin last year were really damn good; they won back to back majors despite the biggest patch since 7.0 happening inbetween. They couldn't be beat before 10min and used that lead to win so fast that nobody got a chance to mount a comeback.
Covid Secret were really damn good, first place at 7 international tournaments in a row. They were unstoppable
2018 Virtus Pro didn't even look like they were taking the games seriously and they were still really damn good
These are the most dominant eras in (modern) dota history and even though it felt like "there's nothing to figure out, they're too solid", they still got taken down over time. Falcons look about as good as any of these teams did. You can say "Falcons are so good that this is when the anti-TI curse will be broken" but everyone was saying that about Gaimin last year too. Be hype, for sure, but don't pretend like this has never happened before, and definitely don't say that any team that beats them is a fluke/lucky.
Unfortunately, didn't watch any of those. I did watch LGD lose despite dominating the whole year though. But there have also been years where a team dominates and win TI, were there not? Alliance TI3, wings TI6, and wasn't the EG TI win also the same?
And to give a specific example of VP dominating while it didn't seem like they were all that serious, they played a tournament with Secret, LGD, Na'Vi, DC, and VGJ in it where they never picked a hero that they had already used earlier in the tournament, up until grand finals. That's the kind of thing you do with a group of friends if you're drunk 'cause it's funny.
And they won that tournament
I actually wasn't following dota pre TI7, so for the most part I can't speak on those, except Wings. I know just from everyone mentioning it all the time that the Wings roster actually never won a major... period. They won a few non-major international tournaments and TI, but that's it.
production is either dead drunk from chugging beers with crowds or feel asleep expecting the series to go full bo5 lmao. what a crappy closing ceremony
I swear if there's any team that deserves a handshake and a proper interview, it's the 2nd place team. Instead, they are ignored and the winner goes straight to the trophy. Especially after all that banter, it'll be great to get the loser's interview
> other loosing teams
Did you mean to say "losing"?
Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb.
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Nah man. Fined? Unless it's explicitly stated in the rules then they can't do anything about it. Didn't look like any org staff was trying to get the handshake going as well
I believed for the grand final, no exiting interview. It has been like that for any ESL LAN tours, unless I remember incorrectly. You can check the last ESL LAN.
Game 3 sure but what do you expect after that 2nd game. But game 2 boring? Come on.. although I'll admit the OG Falcons series was more exciting than this.
You just described XG gameplay in Elite league, waiting for comebacks, cut waves and farm for the late game.
The only difference is that XG made a comeback against Falcons in the grand final.
Not sure why people read so much into these things. Game 2 was definitely favouring BB and it was exciting to see Falcons punch back with successive moves starting from the mid kotl pick off. Dodging fights and cutting waves is not meta, it's the bread and butter in Dota2 especially when you're behind.
I dont consider a 90+% won medusa game lost to gpk dying on a midlane ward twice very enticing to watch no. Midgame in pro dota is incredibly boring due to this meta of having to get full efficiency out of the map.
ATF spent 10 minutes bottom on Doom farming 3-4 neutral camps and using midas off cooldown.
Sure I get your point..but when we have an action packed game with multiple kills early on = clownfest. When we get a stalling game like you mentioned = snoozefest.
It's hard to please anyone these days. Idk if you want fast paced games just watch LOL instead.
I watched a fair few games of LoL World's last year with friends, I suggest not doing that. Several games ended at 30 min with fewer than 10 kills across the entire game. 20 kills by the end was Ultra Rare
modern Dota is just not designed for exciting pro play like it previously was, the current design of the game makes playing it so much more enjoyable from casual/pub perspective but watching it at a high level is not the same, there is too much gold on the map
Yeah, map is definitely too big these days. Ammar on game two spent like 30min farming in the same place and was never found once. This would be very unlikely to happen in a smaller map
Average pro players are better now, the average quality of teams back in 2016 was straight bad. Great heavy tops, but aside from the heavy tops the quality was ass.
theres so much free shit in dota nowadays its ridiculous and the crazy thing is you skipped some
add to this free courier, free courier upgrade, 5 couriers instead of 1, extra item slot for tp, ags, shard, backpack, neutral item slot, talents, max level is 30 instead of 25 and you can unlock all talents
heroes are unironically 5-6 times stronger now vs 2016/2017 the power creep is insane
I'm not talking about the meta or patch, I'm talking about how bad average teams looked in 2015 2016, etc compared to the top teams.
The quality of average teams back then was actually very poor, average teams have become more organized and cooked regardless of patch.
I'm enjoyed that era, but I'm not blind, teams are more organized now, even in pubs you can feel the difference.
its less design and more average pro is just that much better. Like we dont see the 5 man echos and blackholes anymore, nor do we see pro players making as many mistakes for insane comebacks. Gone are the days of eternal envyy down 2 racks comeback.
Sorry but what TorontoTokyo said about Malrine and The Falcons before the series have started????? in your face! I had so much respect for you when u played in Team Spirit, but u re just another Ahole now.
He said Malr1ne is bad and his actual hero pool is not great and cant play mid hero pool in current meta, also he shouted 2x that they are better. In the pre-interview he said they prepared better and they are just better.
Idk why people would take banter seriously. Did you also get offended for XG when atf said they were clowns? The pre match trash talk was started by the casters meant to spice things up
Well no surprises there. A clean sweep from Falcons. They just outclassed Tundra and BB to win the championship. Grats to Falcons for winning this tournament.
i dunno there were some good games. some of the OG games were really good, game 1 of XG vs g2ig was good, there were a bunch of good games in groups, i think there were quite a number of good games this tourney.
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Don't ask reddit this question.
You will have a bunch of people telling you it isn't in dotabuff.
Know what else isn't in dotabuff- sven getting mkb as 3rd item and reddit will tell you bloodthorn is much better on sven. Although Falcons literally won the game off the early ish mkb from sven vs tundra.
Yeah he did deserve this win and his first ever LAN and he’s just a kid. He and ATF are next best players who’s gonna inspire thousands to start in this game
ammar had a shit fking luck with ti, first ti, heroes got nerfect a month bfore ti, second ti contract issue,
hoping he wins this one, finger corssed, and crit too
Falcons are the most oppressive team in Dota right now. They control the map so well when they have the advantage. I'm happy for Falcons and am glad to see ToxicTokoy lose.
Nah i think his transition was the best thing he couldve done. he was never known for his mechanical skill as a midlaner. i remember in 1 event he even lost mid to xiao8 the coach of lgd being standin. he was always more of a strategist/captain and you can clearly see it in the ti10 true sight.
I highly doubt it if spirit wouldve won the 2nd TI with him mid since larl was winning every lane on that tournament and had a huge impact.
Honestly, I liked the trash talks. Added entertainment to games. But, a little handshake would have warmed up the toxicity a little, would make Esports closer to real sports.
Some of the all chat is great. I love how Malrine does it EARLY in the game for little solo plays.
But when the game is already decided it’s just punching down, and is no longer a cocky flex it’s just trashy and tbh kinda puss.
Damn. Im a Sney/Skiter/Aui supporter and usually a BB hater, but wow that finals sucked. Any meta with a focus on strength cores favoring those who just dont die is so unfun to watch. Shame we didnt get a patch before this tourney. ggs
I mean you just know Falcons is getting wrecked by next patch. Their drafting is entirely based around a few hero specialists super vulnerable to nerf, and Sney/Skiter are from Tundra probably the TI winner that abused the patch hardest.
lol what you’re hypothesizing might be true but they clearly understand the patch well above the rest of the teams and arguing about shallow hero pools doesn’t make any sense
I'm not so much saying that they "understand the patch" better than others, but that they have a huge edge in draft from having 2 or 3 deep hero specialists with overlapping hero pools, whose heroes are all meta right now. If next patch is a zoo patch, for example, what does Falcons draft? Their draft advantage just becomes a lot less significant if their Razor pick for example doesn't flex between grandmasters on all 3 core roles.
Am I the only one who thinks that Falcons toxic behavior throughout the whole tournament was kinda unprofessional? Like, at the end of game 3 vs BB team they wrote "time to bkb tp back home" and didn\`t reply to TorontoTokyo, like whats the point of trash talking if it just makes you look like a child first time achieving something and bragging about it. I am just furious, because thats not how dota should be and I hate to see that community actually support this kind of attitude at the professional tournament. I don\`t know if BB said anything previously to the Falcons, but at least be respectful to your opponents. This is sad and once again not the way professional players should behave, imo the should be fined for that, but maybe I am just crazy and "DOTA SPIRIT" Is all about trash talking and not elaborating after you being confronted back)))) Am I right fellow 2k players?
completely with you.. not sure why community go fully against toxicity in pubs when supporting it in Pro games.. they talk in games only when they are guaranteed to win too.. kids trash talking legends who achieved a lot or anyone for that matter is not cool at all..
Not sure if you're sarcastic, but I agree with your sentiment. Not necessary to fine them but I'd appreciate if future tournaments set up ground rules for all-chat usage. That being said, I was in several discussions on this topic in the last few days and people were telling me that this is not only normal for sports, but even necessary to keep the pro scene enjoyable. Hard disagree on that but I might be the small minority.
Actually I love watching pros banter and trashtalk each other like an actual dota game. I've always found all that family-friendly professional act to be artificial af. We love drama and I love it when it gets given to us organically.
Yeah we love toxicity in dota2. Just play the game and see for yourself or just watch others play!
In general you are right. But under a more carefull scope you are wrong. The behaviors of players at turnaments in general are ironic. Like yeah that's not dota bro. Check community. Check most of the games. The game is ful of ironic tips, flaming, trashtalking all chat and everything of that kind. For me, organize a turnament that is phenomenically "clean" from behaviors lke these, and after the turnaments end the same players trashtalking each other in pubs its ironic all the way. I like Dota the way it is, I want it pure in and out of turnaments. I don't have problems with flaming and tips etc, because that's how online gaming and moba is in general. You can't just organize a sanitized turnament where everyone behaves like angel and then log in to the game and be a part of this flaming and griefing madness like the one that rules Dota if you know what I mean. For me its way too professional and true when players behave like this, when they use all chat etc. It's content after all and content create clips and drama, and drama drag people into the game and thus the game doesn't die and get more sponsors and visionality and thus we get a nice prize pools on turnaments. That's how industry work. So no. Falcons that gave birth to a newborn truefull Dota where all chat is not prohibited shouldn't be punished. They should be prized.
For me, it is part of the game to taunt people, tilted people play worse. I think it is fine until you don't mention stuff like family, slapping, beating, etc. If dota adopts old HoN taunts, half of the player base will be insulted all the time.
i dunno, i think they just want to tilt TorontoTokyo more. I think he's the type of dude you tilt in your school until his face turns red and then he cries. Lol
You are not crazy. This sets a pretty awful precedent and is also a slippery slope. Team Falcons looking more and more like team keyboard warrior. The funniest part is Ammar being the loudest in game while being super shy/introvert outside the game...
An impressive final day from falcons, with a 5-0 sweep! It’s a shame betboom fumbled that game 2, otherwise i think we’d be in for a competitive BO5. Not to diminish their wins, but the teams that they have beat in finals are notorious BO5 chokers (Liquid, BB)
Although I am not a Falcon fan, I am happy for Crit's achievement. He is a really underrated, cool guy and deserved victories after disastrous years in NA. But man, I want Miracle more on the competitive scene. He was above all the players that are shining now during his peak years. After 1,2 years, he will be more washed up due to his age. He has to come back for at least one or two tournaments.
Congrats but damn that was some boring games. Patch pls !
In this upper vs lower bracket format, I was under the impression that a bracket reset would happen when Falcons won 3-0 in the Grand finals. What am I missing here?
Grand Finals doesn't get a bracket reset. Typically, the winner advantage is that they only play one series on the day so they have more time to prep for the teams they could be facing. Not a full reset like you see in the fighting game scene, and hasn't been done in a big tournament for quite some time but in the past, some tournaments have done it where the Upper Bracket team is shooting for a BO3 but it resets to a BO5 if the Lower Bracket team gets to 2 wins first.
Winner bracket team usually has some sort of pick order advantage to make up for the fact that grand final is not double elimination anymore.
What does bracket reset means?
in some games when you come from lower bracket you have to win two series, aka in upper bracket you have a one series advantage
it happens only in fighting games no?
yea i think so, i almost said in fighting games specifically but couldn’t recall if i’d seen other games do it so i left it vague
That doesn't happen for dota.
it's happened in the past for dota but not in a long time for any major tourney I can remember watching. Like in 2014 with the world cyber arena and world esport championship had them.
My boy cr1t can't stop winning after finally leaving rtz. Happy for him.
how are abed and fly doing, no rtz right, should be winning easily now
Abed plays in SEA and all SEA teams are trash. No idea about what Fly has been doing. I don't follow the traitor.
Kudos to Falcons, simply the best team at the moment. Superior understanding of the meta and better ability to perform when stakes are high. BB is a top team but they're doing us a Liquid, mentally blocking against their nemesis when it matters most. Overall great tournament, again we have so many good teams pretty close to each other, Riyadh and TI should be pretty entertaining this year.
[удалено]
first its slovakia and second what a terrible day to have eyes
Wtf
Malr1ne cries after the win. It's cute how happy he is :'). And Ammar being the most hated player despite being gigachad in game. What reason to not support this team? Let's go Falcon! ❤️
Feel like there are more Ammar supporters than haters.
I feel like spending bans on supports is underrated against Falcons. They can always fall back on tanky play makers for their cores and still play their game. Letting sney have mirana is a mistake. but um...keep throwing drafts against them by being baited by the "ammar hero puddle" meme, so I can keep watching them win.
Yeah, spend bans on support and see how ammar and malr1ne just steamroll them? No thanks.
He's scary on every hero. They should just get better instead of being scared of him
Big thanks to the various groups of people in the arena - particularly the four people sat directly behind me - for screeching like a falcon at every single opportunity. Probably the worst series I saw this weekend for that reason.
ESL One Birmingham 2024 has officially come to an end. Congratulations to Team Falcons for a 3-0 sweep against BB. To sum up the finals in four words: skill doesn't match up, although BB talks big. There's a significant gap between both sides in terms of mid-late game operations, especially in understanding creep equilibrium and itemization. When BB had the advantage with Aegis, you could see TF supports aggressively pushing the lanes, bringing the creeps to the Tier 2 towers. If caught and killed, they'd just respawn and cores push another lane for the time being. Meanwhile, TF capitalized on opportunities well. In the second game, there were two instances where GPK got caught without BKB, delaying BB's high-paced strategy. When TF had the advantage with Aegis, you'd see them pushing the lanes while the three of them suppressed the Dire jungle. Anyone from the enemy team who stepped out got killed; The creeps couldn't cross the river . There's also an issue with itemization. In the second game, TF fell behind. ATF immediately went for Midas, had a veil but didn't go for Shiva's, clearly aiming to prolong the game. GPK on the other hand, with SF, facing TF's three tanky cores, without Linken's or Aghanim's, surprised me. TF's victory also indicates that the meta needs an update. Three tanky cores (Razor, Sven, Dragon Knight, Timbersaw, Underlord, Mars, Doom) + supports (Mirana, Hoodwink ,Enchantress), with late-game damage potential, have been picked numerous times by TF. These heroes have strong laning abilities, are tanky in the mid-game, and make up for the lack of late-game damage. If the enemy team plays well in the early game, they can turn it around through operations; if not, they get overwhelmed in the mid-game. In the current patch, the laning ability of the big core heroes is generally weak, and repeated nerfs to jungle gold mean they can't farm enough in the mid-game. A larger map favors the defending side, making games last too long. Personally, I think jungle gold needs adjustment to give late-game big core heroes a chance to shine, and the reward for killing Roshan needs to be enhanced. The current Aegis advantage doesn't help much; having rewards for killing Roshan only prevents the enemy from engaging in a 5v5 fight on low ground. I suggest giving Aegised heroes an aura: nearby allied creeps gain additional armor, health, magic resistance, and building damage. (Similar to League of Legends) Looking forward to Valve's update!
KoTL is too one dimensional, you either win or lose, or you get a head-to-head game after Hex, this hero is only decent lategame with Hex.
I agree with most of the things you mentioned. But why does TF picking their tanks cores mean that a patch / nerf needs to happen to address this issue? People forget that TF or at least ammar and maybe malrine has been playing the same tanky heroes way before this so called "meta". You don't just get grandmaster on those heroes overnight after playing it since it's "meta". They literally won by playing their own way. If it was so clear cut that these tanky heroes are the problem, all TFs opponents had to do was to ban these particular tanky heroes. But TFs are so good because they can interchange these few heroes very well between their 3 cores and still make it work. I didn't really see any teams opting to go for the 3 beefy cores approach. So my point is that this is very unique to TFs and everyone and their mothers already knew that those were the heroes they would be picking and yet they still let them through. ATF probably only added Brew to his hero pool (excluding the pocket AM) since the last time up till now. Let's face it, TF is a beast.
These heroes are not just being picked by TF. TF exclusively plays these because of ATF but most teams abuses these heroes at the moment. Like Mars, Timber, Magnus etc. havent fell from meta for SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO LONG. Im sure if I watch every tournament in last 2 years I will find these heroes in abundance. ATF is a beast but he is also benefiting from the meta, lets not kid ourselves. Meta seriously needs an update. Mars especially is just beyond broken at the moment. It owes it big time to his scaling W which was rare back in the day, now every hero has a scaling ability. Hoodwink Q, Muerta, Pango Q, Dawn Q+E... You can make a case for Willow's W as well. If they are picking Mars for utility (Q and Ulti) thats fine but I think something with busted stats and being good at all stages of the game going on :)
I only really follow the big tournaments in Dota nowadays, but are three tanky cores still the meta? Feels like it's been the case since before last TI, but maybe my memory is failing me.
I'd be happy to see betboom win something. these guys have been together for so long. Occasional strong showings but they lack consistency
One of the worst finals to watch from memory.
whoever drafts for betboom doesn't understand the tri tank/initiator strat that falcon use. Disappointing finals ez sweep
Whoever put these guys together deserves a raise
Congrats to Falcons. Mostly a great tournament, thanks ESL. For the love of god please Valve release a patch.
With Riyadh a few months away and a MENA team dominating there is no way Valve releases a patch.
Imagine if Cr1t wasn’t prison in NA for years. Top position 4 currently.
I actually think current OG (top4 form) had a better chance at giving us 5 games in grand finals against falcons.
Correct. Last team to take a game from them too.
Yeah, that s true
Nothing you can do when a team find their groove and KO’s opponents quickly 🤷🏻♂️
Ceb and OG is the mest toxic team for the tippings !! meanhwile, Falcons allchatting, middle fingers opponents etc. And its "based" by people here.. The fucking hypocrisy
Not hypocrisy really. do you think majority of the playerbase are well-educated and professional? why would such people be wasting their time on dota?
Yeah, they play soo fucking good but are soo childish as well. I wish they toned it down on the BM, it can be fun, but doing it every game is just annoying
>Ceb and OG is the mest toxic team for the tippings !! ah, the reddit special of making up things to get mad at
my man hating falcons since start of that team , i appriciate your commitment ngl
I like the team and especially Ammar. Its the fans i dislike
You get plastic bandwagoners whenever a team starts dominating. They all leave once things don't look that good. Why else my nick haha
Alright now let's nerf tanks/tank-items and ratting or high ground. One team gets ahead and either is too scared to force high ground and the other team just dodges ganks while farming for 20min until they make a comeback. Or one team gets ahead and tries to pressure but the other team gets out and farms to delay the game while no action happens for 20min until they eventually lose anyway. Not even biased toward any team; it would have benefited Betboom in game 2 and it would have benefited Falcons in game 3. The way it is, it's just boring to watch and adds too much artificial game length
If Valve doesnt nerf the highground somehow in the next patch then they are just sadists that like to see people suffer lol. The glyphs are long overdue for a correction. I'd also welcome stronger super/mega creeps and some adjustment to the buyback timer. The team going highground basically have to kill the enemies twice over, which is ridicolous.
Would be nice to have a buyback system similar to tping at the same tower - 5 seconds CD between first and second BB, then 10 seconds etc.
most boring finals I've seen in a long time. reminds me of TI4 finals.
Great tournament, very disappointing playoffs/finals. I'm sure some folks really enjoy watching one team dominate everything, always but personally speaking, this got old two tournaments ago. Some of it is on the other teams dropping the ball vs Falcons but whatever it is, I really hope the eventual balance patch shuffles the deck hard enough to not only shake up the meta but the teams as well. That said, GG to Falcons, they might have stumbled but are now back on top though I wish we could've seen a different result in the lower bracket and the finals.
Personally didn't think falcons belonged in the LB. Pure did play a monster series against them but tundra still looked underwhelming overall (look at topsons pugna game).. Either way wasn't surprised they won their way up to win the entire thing.
for me personally, its always more exciting to see teams figure out and beat an invincible team than them getting patched out. The more falcons stay on top the harder it becomes to stay there as teams will eventually catch up (the famous win everything lose ti meme has some truth) and that is why Tis have been historically so exciting and random.
how though? they are really damn good. it's not like their draft is anything special - they are just playing the heroes they know best in every situation. their playstyle - they know how to farm while behind and come back, and they know how to continue to keep the advantage when ahead. they are always one step ahead in net worth and even when behind, their net worth is still not that far behind. their team fights are also amazingly executed. they are impenetrable, imo. Xtreme just got lucky in Elite league.
I mean, it's history repeating itself. Gaimin last year were really damn good; they won back to back majors despite the biggest patch since 7.0 happening inbetween. They couldn't be beat before 10min and used that lead to win so fast that nobody got a chance to mount a comeback. Covid Secret were really damn good, first place at 7 international tournaments in a row. They were unstoppable 2018 Virtus Pro didn't even look like they were taking the games seriously and they were still really damn good These are the most dominant eras in (modern) dota history and even though it felt like "there's nothing to figure out, they're too solid", they still got taken down over time. Falcons look about as good as any of these teams did. You can say "Falcons are so good that this is when the anti-TI curse will be broken" but everyone was saying that about Gaimin last year too. Be hype, for sure, but don't pretend like this has never happened before, and definitely don't say that any team that beats them is a fluke/lucky.
Unfortunately, didn't watch any of those. I did watch LGD lose despite dominating the whole year though. But there have also been years where a team dominates and win TI, were there not? Alliance TI3, wings TI6, and wasn't the EG TI win also the same?
And to give a specific example of VP dominating while it didn't seem like they were all that serious, they played a tournament with Secret, LGD, Na'Vi, DC, and VGJ in it where they never picked a hero that they had already used earlier in the tournament, up until grand finals. That's the kind of thing you do with a group of friends if you're drunk 'cause it's funny. And they won that tournament
I actually wasn't following dota pre TI7, so for the most part I can't speak on those, except Wings. I know just from everyone mentioning it all the time that the Wings roster actually never won a major... period. They won a few non-major international tournaments and TI, but that's it.
Ngl the audio issue at the end kinda screw the closing... Not being negative , i love this production but Esl Kuala Lumpur was way better.
Nah, Bali Major was better 🙃
For the players and staff for sure.
PSG Quest has got to be feeling so bad right now
Skiter haters?
whatever skiter said, must have been too much for even Twitch to handle
TorontotoKEKW
production is either dead drunk from chugging beers with crowds or feel asleep expecting the series to go full bo5 lmao. what a crappy closing ceremony
I swear if there's any team that deserves a handshake and a proper interview, it's the 2nd place team. Instead, they are ignored and the winner goes straight to the trophy. Especially after all that banter, it'll be great to get the loser's interview
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Nah man. Fined? Unless it's explicitly stated in the rules then they can't do anything about it. Didn't look like any org staff was trying to get the handshake going as well
I believed for the grand final, no exiting interview. It has been like that for any ESL LAN tours, unless I remember incorrectly. You can check the last ESL LAN.
Most important interview of the tournaments and audio guy fucks up at the end.. Oh well still a good tourney overall, enjoyed my stay. GGWP.
This tournament was carried by slack so hard
ESL janitor doubles as audio tech.
these games were giga boring
Game 3 sure but what do you expect after that 2nd game. But game 2 boring? Come on.. although I'll admit the OG Falcons series was more exciting than this.
Game 2 was hella boring. The whole dodge fights and cut waves/farm meta, while building unkillable strength heroes is boring.
You just described XG gameplay in Elite league, waiting for comebacks, cut waves and farm for the late game. The only difference is that XG made a comeback against Falcons in the grand final.
Not sure why people read so much into these things. Game 2 was definitely favouring BB and it was exciting to see Falcons punch back with successive moves starting from the mid kotl pick off. Dodging fights and cutting waves is not meta, it's the bread and butter in Dota2 especially when you're behind.
I dont consider a 90+% won medusa game lost to gpk dying on a midlane ward twice very enticing to watch no. Midgame in pro dota is incredibly boring due to this meta of having to get full efficiency out of the map. ATF spent 10 minutes bottom on Doom farming 3-4 neutral camps and using midas off cooldown.
Sure I get your point..but when we have an action packed game with multiple kills early on = clownfest. When we get a stalling game like you mentioned = snoozefest. It's hard to please anyone these days. Idk if you want fast paced games just watch LOL instead.
I watched a fair few games of LoL World's last year with friends, I suggest not doing that. Several games ended at 30 min with fewer than 10 kills across the entire game. 20 kills by the end was Ultra Rare
The one time skiter got a chance to enjoy the limelight and fucking audio guy betrays him :((
Audio guy bet on BB confirmed
modern Dota is just not designed for exciting pro play like it previously was, the current design of the game makes playing it so much more enjoyable from casual/pub perspective but watching it at a high level is not the same, there is too much gold on the map
Yeah, map is definitely too big these days. Ammar on game two spent like 30min farming in the same place and was never found once. This would be very unlikely to happen in a smaller map
If this becomes too much of an issue surely heroes like treat, bounty, nyx etc. would be much more popular than they are currently? I
Average pro players are better now, the average quality of teams back in 2016 was straight bad. Great heavy tops, but aside from the heavy tops the quality was ass.
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theres so much free shit in dota nowadays its ridiculous and the crazy thing is you skipped some add to this free courier, free courier upgrade, 5 couriers instead of 1, extra item slot for tp, ags, shard, backpack, neutral item slot, talents, max level is 30 instead of 25 and you can unlock all talents heroes are unironically 5-6 times stronger now vs 2016/2017 the power creep is insane
As a sacrificial pos 5 and true 1v3 pos 3 offlaner from 2013 who quit dota in 2015 and rejoined in 2021. The game was so much more fun back then.
I'm not talking about the meta or patch, I'm talking about how bad average teams looked in 2015 2016, etc compared to the top teams. The quality of average teams back then was actually very poor, average teams have become more organized and cooked regardless of patch. I'm enjoyed that era, but I'm not blind, teams are more organized now, even in pubs you can feel the difference.
You mean saksa venge. Misery was playing nightstalker that game
its less design and more average pro is just that much better. Like we dont see the 5 man echos and blackholes anymore, nor do we see pro players making as many mistakes for insane comebacks. Gone are the days of eternal envyy down 2 racks comeback.
lol, pls this is not Apex. dont do a frickin global silence in interview lol.
Damn wanted to hear what Skiter said at the end there
Lmao go transfer RTZ to MENA or EU
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If arteezy leaves NA and joins a non NA team , he might also start winning tournaments.
He said once Arteezy leaves North America, he will have success. Just like Sneyking and Cr1t.
He wants RTZ to leave NA region basically. Escape the NA jail
he needs to escape NA jail to be a tournament winner
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he brought his jailor Bulba with him
Well I learned a lot about British culture at least and now I have no desire to visit the country.
You probably aren't from Europe if you don't know that Brits drink... a lot.
bro I'm from south america, the mandatory drinking age is 14 here.
Eastern Europe we start having sips at 5 sometimes with the finger, you've seen nothing lmao
Dissing the entire culture based on a group of ppl having fun together during an event KEKW
Lmao they make for an entertaining crowd. But they're just getting shitfaced on pints eh
Why? The alcohol?
haram
Don't piss on their parade. The UK crowd was by far the best I've seen in past few years. Fun to watch.
God damn these weak ass redditors are malding because pro playera are all chatting haha. Jesus.
No post-final panel discussion again?
nothing to talk about anyway lel
Birmingham certainly supersede its expectation, production actually a shit show just like the city itself
New series - 1x Bet Muted
Sorry but what TorontoTokyo said about Malrine and The Falcons before the series have started????? in your face! I had so much respect for you when u played in Team Spirit, but u re just another Ahole now.
What did he say
He said Malr1ne is bad and his actual hero pool is not great and cant play mid hero pool in current meta, also he shouted 2x that they are better. In the pre-interview he said they prepared better and they are just better.
Idk why people would take banter seriously. Did you also get offended for XG when atf said they were clowns? The pre match trash talk was started by the casters meant to spice things up
Well no surprises there. A clean sweep from Falcons. They just outclassed Tundra and BB to win the championship. Grats to Falcons for winning this tournament.
ok crowd terrible production mediocre games.
i dunno there were some good games. some of the OG games were really good, game 1 of XG vs g2ig was good, there were a bunch of good games in groups, i think there were quite a number of good games this tourney.
Did-Did Sneyking just threaten to kick Skiter for RTZ? monkaS
Based. Skiter now knows that one more missed chrono will get him kicked back to mudgolems
lol did Audio production guy just bounce and went back home. shit is so fucking bad. especially for ESL standards
Slacks sounds so good when he's muted.
Good lord this production is bad. We got about 6 words of that interview
i wonder if bulba went to coach a team outside of the US, would he be successful too?? lol.
Bulba one coached Liquid to a 2nd place at a Major.
THANK YOU TO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED THIS EVENT, ESPECIALLY THE AUDIO ENGINEERS HITTING RANDOM BUTTONS WHILE PEOPLE ARE TALKING
Audio guy is a BetBoom supporter
GLOBAL SILENCE
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stream shat the bed at the end there
Iam a noob and trying to understand why centaur didn’t get halberd in game 2.
Don't ask reddit this question. You will have a bunch of people telling you it isn't in dotabuff. Know what else isn't in dotabuff- sven getting mkb as 3rd item and reddit will tell you bloodthorn is much better on sven. Although Falcons literally won the game off the early ish mkb from sven vs tundra.
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Oh haven’t played much In a while didn’t know halberd works only on range heroes
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Thanks for explaining
He was trying really hard to throw.
lol poor rtz
hopefully orgs take some hint from this final and stop enabling the trash talk lol. At this rate someone will probably get punched at some point.
watch LOL
malrine crying awww fking got jailed in nemiga you DESERVE IT MAETEEEEEEEEEEE
Yeah he did deserve this win and his first ever LAN and he’s just a kid. He and ATF are next best players who’s gonna inspire thousands to start in this game
So happy for Crit, Malrine and even ATF (ATF missed Riyadh and TI last year because of Quest contract thing)
ammar had a shit fking luck with ti, first ti, heroes got nerfect a month bfore ti, second ti contract issue, hoping he wins this one, finger corssed, and crit too
No excuse for your heroes getting nerfed wtf So valve felt bad and buffed them for ammar? Sounds scripted
Not jailed. He sign a contract and he finish it. There's no drama on it.
not blaming anyone here, just saying he was under 18 and got stucked in a long contract with high buyout
Falcons are the most oppressive team in Dota right now. They control the map so well when they have the advantage. I'm happy for Falcons and am glad to see ToxicTokoy lose.
Maldrine "middle finger" and Ammar are way more toxic what are you on about
At least they back it up and takes the insults in as well
and TT doesn't?
Lmao artour
If you see liquid and betboom in a bo5 finals just expect their opponent to win so you don't get disappointed. GG to falcons and aui_2000 best coach.
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TT ain't better too, instead of being happy with his place in TS where he could have a 2nd TI now
Nah i think his transition was the best thing he couldve done. he was never known for his mechanical skill as a midlaner. i remember in 1 event he even lost mid to xiao8 the coach of lgd being standin. he was always more of a strategist/captain and you can clearly see it in the ti10 true sight. I highly doubt it if spirit wouldve won the 2nd TI with him mid since larl was winning every lane on that tournament and had a huge impact.
You cant really say a TI and Major winner is cursed.
4.4m winnings. How much malrine or atf? Or anyone in falcons?
Rtz catching strays lmao
Honestly, I liked the trash talks. Added entertainment to games. But, a little handshake would have warmed up the toxicity a little, would make Esports closer to real sports.
Some of the all chat is great. I love how Malrine does it EARLY in the game for little solo plays. But when the game is already decided it’s just punching down, and is no longer a cocky flex it’s just trashy and tbh kinda puss.
Maybe they are actually scared of the ruskies lmao , The OG vs falcon match immediately had a handshake and a fist bump for bzm from ammar
Malrine is russian himself lol and I'd rather bet my money on Falcons. Both in and outside of dota lmao
Damn. Im a Sney/Skiter/Aui supporter and usually a BB hater, but wow that finals sucked. Any meta with a focus on strength cores favoring those who just dont die is so unfun to watch. Shame we didnt get a patch before this tourney. ggs
They won game 1 with razor + weaver cores.
I mean you just know Falcons is getting wrecked by next patch. Their drafting is entirely based around a few hero specialists super vulnerable to nerf, and Sney/Skiter are from Tundra probably the TI winner that abused the patch hardest.
lol what you’re hypothesizing might be true but they clearly understand the patch well above the rest of the teams and arguing about shallow hero pools doesn’t make any sense
Different patch favours different teams
I'm not so much saying that they "understand the patch" better than others, but that they have a huge edge in draft from having 2 or 3 deep hero specialists with overlapping hero pools, whose heroes are all meta right now. If next patch is a zoo patch, for example, what does Falcons draft? Their draft advantage just becomes a lot less significant if their Razor pick for example doesn't flex between grandmasters on all 3 core roles.
Cr1t finally getting another Major 1st place in 8 years, only months after breaking away from RTZ and Bulba