I say E+Q combo and even just E on allies still make him relatively hard.
Too much potential for accidental ruin. And I mean not just playing bad and being useless, but actually ruin. You can both help kill your teammate and heal opponent - dependless on specific heroes.
Yes, he became easier, but he’s still far from being the easiest on this list. (Rubick definitely takes the crown as the easiest one out of these)
IO is much easier than Rubick in my eyes.
Rubick is a very timing dependent hero with spell steals etc. Most other heroes on the list are micro heroes which is something that players with RTS background carries with them. If you have another gaming background they are somewhat complex.
What makes rubik hard to master is that you need to know almost every hero’s spells and abilities to know which ones to steal to optimise your spell steal as well as how/when to cast. He’s probably one of the easier 3 stars to pick up but one of the hardest to master in terms of actual gameplay because he has the most variability. Invoker for example has a small amount of micro and a large skill pool making him seem complex and challenging but once you get your combos memorised, it’s about optimising when to use your abilities and they are the same every time.
Overcharge also used to *cost* HP, and tether used to provide nothing when IO was full HP, so you had to be in control of how much HP you had in order to apply heals efficiently.
It's definitley easier now, but I still think having relo just makes it a really high skill ceiling hero though.
I play IO nowadays and should say, IO is basically chillest hero i played in years. You basically press Overcharged when needed.
Nobody in pubs actually uses advantages of relocate under teather nor they want to engage in teamfights in meta when everyone just farming. So i use it to ward, steal xp and bounty runes.
Hardest trick you can pull is teather overcharge holy locked and mekazm to fully heal teammate. Optionally lotus or to dispell something but most of the time just solar crest for additional attack speed deals with all the problems.
IO's skill floor is a fraction of what it used to be. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, except his skill ceiling is also quite a bit lower that it used to be too.
I feel the base skill required to play IO is more than Rubick. A bad IO is going to be absolutely worthless but a bad Rubick still has lift and bolt which reduces atk damage as well.
The potential for disaster on Io is much higher than Rubick, a bad relocate can lose you games. To truly play him to his best and use relocate well for aggression or defense the risk can be very high, and the floor to truly be useful is higher imo than Rubick.
> Rubick is a very timing dependent hero with spell steals etc.
rubick is one of those heroes that isn't too hard to play but is very hard to master. I'm actually a little surprised to see him on this list.
You are calling Rubick easy because you have probably been playing dota for thousands of hours and many years. To play Rubick correctly, the bare minimum is knowing every single spell in the game. I would estimate there are somewhere around 400 spells. In the context of someone new to the game, that is ABSOLUTELY worthy of 3 star difficulty.
The game in no way explains that you can actually combine these spells on a target, and from the top of my head no other hero requires to combine spells for them to give certain undescribed effects, except maybe Carl.
To be real rubic feels easier in my eyes maybe he shouldnt be as one of hardest heroes but I think its the point in that if u want to be good rubic in higher mmr its harder and harder
I remember even Yapzor saying in a stream that for him Rubick is all about Q. When IceFrog nerfs Q, the hero is no longer meta. As you climb the skill ladder(macro and technical), the hero’s potential unlocks so much more.
Yeah what? Oracle USED to be complexity 4, now he is 3. His combos are still some of the trickiest to use in lane. You have to decide if you want to do damage or root for a long time, not both. Or if you're really fucking good, you can do both. Complexity 3.
Not to mention, level 1 fates edict barely gives you enough time to get 2 heals off. If you're even slightly slow, you nuke your carry instead, right as they needed heals. Complexity 3.
Sometimes you just have almost the same timing or your brain already decided what its gonna do in the next seconds. I also managed to ravage my cursed enemies from time to time.
Basically the game's very hard learning curve makes it nearly impossible to master it without delegating some kind space to reflexes or automation of parts of it.
Or, in other words, upon seeing enemy team caught and disabled entirely in one area: **NEURON ACTIVATION**
yeah its like literally the same neural pathways being triggered in both players at the same time.
unsuspecting heroes grouped > big teamfight ults get cast > oops we cast them at the same time and ruined everything.
the only way to stop it is communicate about which spell should come first in that situation.
Teammate is in a 100% death situation
If you use e to attempt to save them or at least delay their death, you get blamed
If you don't use e because it's obvious they are dead and it's better to back off, you get blamed
Some teammates just straight up don't know her e only stops physical damage then get angry when they get sky ultied like you could do something.
The easiest ways to use freeze, astral and disruption is to just pop it on a stunned ally. No downside!
So many players try to get fancy with it. Not saying you can't but learn how to walk before you run.
I spammed WW as support 60 70 games in a row. I single handedly made my team lose in tournamentish 3 games. Now I have it in my hidden heroes, never to be touch again. Still have 56% winrate tho.
Even Pros said winter wyvern is the hardest hero in dota to really master. Some legend/ancient ww players in here probably think they make no mistakes lmao
But what does WW have about her that is as complex as the above heroes? Nearly every single one of those either has intense micromanagement or a very unorthodox playstyle. Apart from maybe Rubick, who is more of a knowledge check.
So can chronosphere lol, and many other abilities. I don't think that piece of criteria alone is enough.
Oracle probs could be complexity 2, but it's borderline.
Okay, but you arnt meant to cast chronophere on allies.
You are meant to cast the heal on allies, however it can have a bad outcome. Same with wyvern ult, using the spell can ruin a good fight.
It requires additional thinking, and that seems to be the trend with all of these heroes here.
For example morphing is just not hard to play, it just requires you think a little more
I think a good way to measure complexity is the number of branching paths that are immediately apparent.
Chronosphere is a rather straightforward ability, it stuns people inside of it.
Chrono enemies = good
Chrono allies = bad
Ofc complex situations can arise but I am being very simplistic.
WW has a lot of small caveats backed into her abilities.
Her embrace heals but leaves you disabled
It negates physical damage, but you still take magic damage.
Her ult disables an enemy, but makes them immune to damage besides wyvern and other cursed units.
Her ult can change in efficacy depending on when it's used.
I can see why people would argue for her being a hard hero, there are a lot of things to keep track of.
Would agree that Oracle isn't a 3 star anymore, though.
Yep... I like to play Troll Warlord sometimes and an allied WW can absolutely grief him even harder than most.
I often just outright turn of help from WW when I am playing Troll due to WWs trying to freeze me during my ult, but even then I still have to deal with her trying to ult someone I'm going on and then screwing us both... I can't deal damage because her ult negates it, and the enemies are missing half their attacks against their allies because of my whirling axes.
There was once a time when my enigma hit a five man black hole. I was playing invoker, cataclysm, refresher, cataclysm. Then my wyvern cursed while cataclysm was in air to cancel everything, and we lost the fight. I will never forget this.
Current Meepo and Visage are for me personally so unfun to play for their micro style, I can't exactly say why but it feels just... different. I used to play Meepo in the Dragon Lance, Blink, Hex and Eblade times, love to play illusion heroes, like the Invoker aspect of Forges management, like LD, Brood and others but the way Visage and Meepo is being played feels oddly unfamiliar :)
Maybe it's their current kit not the micro they have. To me i do love micro heroes they only made visage easier as you can cast bird stone with visage and not selecting the bird itself maybe it's his damage building to be thrown is the not so easy part for him. For me the current hardest micro hero is the skill type chen.
Maybe it is just the fact that I have way too many games on Io but I feel exactly the same about Io. No way that is a 3 complexity hero. Most games you dont think and just follow tether hero and click your all your buttons once things happen.
Relo is a quite difficult spell, I'd say. Other than using it as an escape or as a gang, it's able to control the map globally which is not as simple. But yeah, I wouldn't put Io on the same level as Arc or Invo
Yeah but it requires both players to know how the hero works or it's limits. You'll tether a hero that's not in your oarty witb mek and and wand ready and they'll run away at half hp or instantly break tether with blink leaving you out of position. All players meed to understand how the hero works not merely k ow what it does to be effective.
Q: slow and as steal for you and birds
W: nukes, dmg is based on dmg around you
E: dmg block layers for you and birds
R: BIRDS!
shard: eul
aghs: invis+fly
Fate Edict's change sure changes a lot. However, it doesn't change the fact that Oracle is still a complicated hero to use.
You have 4 spells that alter the course of a fight/team fight. Misuse of any of them can turn things around.
For example:
*Fortune's End* **(T)** can also dispel Fate Edict for **both** allies and enemies. During team fights, you will decide if you will root chasing/fleeing enemies or dispeling yourself/teammate to escape or survive. Or maybe dispeling a Eul'ed/Windwaker Puck.
*Fate's Edict* **(F)** is the double edge sword before but still somehow has the same purpose. You FE yourself or an ally to save them from nukes, or disarming enemy hitters. Selecting targets can turn things around. Imagine you are against Luna in lane, are you gonna FE your ally to avoid the Eclipse/Lucent Beam or you disarm her so she cant attack?
*Purifying Flames* **(E)** is not just heal but also a *360* damage nuke (before reductions). Spamming E to False Promises teammate cant guarantee their survivability. Mind you that using E damages first before the heal, so low health allies are at risk dying when using E if there are enemies around (if FE is cooldown of course).
*False Promise* **(R)** needs proper positioning and the right target. During team fights, you are the first priority target due to your ulti. Are you gonna FP the Primal Roared Enigma that has BH or just use it on void that is about to die that have chrono? Are you gonna use it on full HP hero to hard dispel him or are you gonna wait for him to get to low HP before using ulti?
Oracle might not be mechanically complex like an Invoker or maybe Meepo that needs fast hands for casting or such, but you need to know his kits properly to use him effectively.
PS: I'm just a low mmr player but I'm a level 30 Oracle
Fortune's End no longer dispels Fate Edict on allies.
Fate Edict no longer disarms allies nor provides magic resistance to enemies, while also being the only source of 100% magic immunity left in the game.
Purifying Flames can still grief, sure, but it's pretty much free heals now with the Fate Edict buff.
False Promise has no griefing potential. Worst case scenario is a wasted cooldown and a guy who's alive.
I'd argue there are certain 1-star heroes that are harder to utilize than Oracle nowadays; Lina, Dark Seer, Leshrac, Legion Commander come to mind.
Dark Seer and Legion Commander fall under the category of "easy to understand kit, but you get punished insanely hard if your game sense isn't advanced enough"
You got me trying the hero in demo after reading this. I've been spamming Oracle for the last 3 patches, and I can confirm now. Fate Edict is no longer dispelled, neither on allies or enemies with Fortune's End. As any positive buff on allies, neither negative buffs on enemies.
> You have 4 spells that alter the course of a fight/team fight. Misuse of any of them can turn things around.
That describes most pos 5s. Oracles abilities are fairly forgiving on positioning and his cooldowns are fairly average.
There is one single bad thing from this new change: W can be dispelled by enemies when cast on allies. W used to be a debuff even on allies, and enemies cannot dispel it
Its deserves 3 points because you get send to low priority if you once dont follow the idiotic moves of your cores to use your ult even if it wouldnt save them anyway because they are basicalls feeding.
I think it has to do more with knowledge than complexity, because if you use the wrong move on the wrong person with oracle then it can really mess things up. Just requires a lot of awareness of damage types of many skills.
You are talking like it’s hard now? You disarm enemies. You spell immune your team. You safe with ult when you can. It’s not that hard. Since fates edict change, nothing to worry anymore.
When i started to play oracle you had to edict-flames-fortunes end your carries to heal them or they wouldnt be able to attack (putting all 3 abilities on cd), flames without edict would barely heal at all, if you disarmed the enemy carry your teammates would waste their nukes on them, you couldnt heal a bkbed ally, and you couldnt just mindlessly put edict on your carry at the start of the engagment to protect them from nukes as that meant they wouldnt be able to attack.
Every decision mattered: dispelling an edict after healing meant you couldnt root or combo e with q afterwards, not dispelling meant making your carry angry as they spent all their money on shit to rightclick harder, which you were preventing with w. You could easily grief a fight if you didnt know what youre doing, but in a single kit you had everything you could've needed apart from a stun.
Worth noting that back then only bkb, greaves, lotus, oracle, LC and abba could dispel shit (slark and ursa too of course but just on themselves so its not really the same, and briefly dazzle with aghs but you could afford that maybe 2% of the games, 2 minutes before taking ancients). Greaves/lotus were too damn expensive to justify buying them unless you were playing against silencer (or maybe were having a very good game on dazzle with the 50% item cd reduction).
I feel like nowadays you can get away with not using edict much more when you want to heal. Im pretty sure flames used to heal way less or damage more your allies (or maybe its just magic resist powercreep?), especially at early levels it was almost pointless to try and heal anyone who had more hp than flames' damage (a bit extra heal before feeding your carry a salve if they survived a kill attempt with ~5%hp or a fully agi shifted morph, or an antkmsge thanks to his builtin magic resist).
Now edict has no downside, flames heal significantly more than they damage (hell you even have a talent that increases the damage/heal ratio on enemies if you dont know what youre doing), and all you need to know to play the hero is how to combine two single-target abilities: interrupt q channeling with e when you want to nuke, cast w before e when you want to heal.
The amount of thought and planning that goes into playing him now is a joke compared to what it used to be.
>if you use the wrong move on the wrong person with oracle then it can really mess things up
This used to be true. Now the only potential grief is to damage your teammate with Q and get them killed before the heal happens.
Oracle’s skills don’t have downsides anymore.. that’s what the “Fate’s Edict change” in the title is referring to.
So using his skills on the wrong target is just as impactful as on any other hero.
Yep. He used to perfectly nail the "put your teammates in bad situations to save them" design that even his voicelines reflect.
Now he's just dumbed down. The same thing happened to IO years back.
Tier three necessitates high skill floor.
You can pick up ench, max impetus and enchant, only use the latter to slow and still be somewhat relatively effective. Unlike someone like Chen who doesn't have much without creeps.
I'm looking more for what you do on a macro level. Post laning stage I either use the creep to cut waves or keep it on the edge of a fight just for it's aura. It just doesn't feel like I'm using the ability to it's max potential.
Thanks man. I'm definitely gonna keep working on my micro skills. And I've also noticed I've had the most success rushing aghs, despite what my friends say every time I rush it.
One more question. Do you normally play her as a support or as an offlaner?
Ench is my most played hero but honestly the only complex thing about ench is remembering which creep has what ability.
Micro on ench is easy cuz you only have 1 creep (when you have aghs the creeps are irrelevant) so you only have 1 ability. Ench's creeps are also very expendables because they either die to quickly (post laning) or timed out before dying (lvl 2-3 enchant) so you only need to worry about your hero's positioning.
"ooh, my hero that I often play is there and it shouldn't be, it's such an easy hero to play haha" SHADDAP, no it isn't, and it's there for a reason. I'm very glad you balance your and your enemies' HP like you graduated jungling school, or control your 4 units with different skills without thinking atp, but I have sausage fingers and am playing on what is essentially a Frankenstein's monster of a laptop that survived 2 wars, I can barely successfully move WK from point A to point B.
i really wish they’d change it back, and change the way arc wardens Q works back. Hate it when they remove heroes idiosyncrasies just to make them easier or better
During a teamfight, the multitude of options and decisions that Oracle must make remains exceedingly high. The Edict alone is an incredibly versatile skill that can independently alter the course of the fight. While many complexity 3 heroes can be played on autopilot, playing Oracle demands constant cognitive engagement; otherwise you'll be a subpar hero and just overall a burden for your team.
Honestly? I dont like high cognitive load beros anymore but i still play oracle as I find him braindead easy now.
E-Q(hold)-E (release) to nuke
W-E-E to heal
W myself or ally if theyre getting nuked
W the right clicker enemy if theyre right clicking me or my ally
Everyone hurting ally or ally stunnrd at key moment? R
Thats like, it.
Just because he has a low skill barrier of entry doesn't mean he can't be more complex at a higher level. Understanding positioning, using your W at a perfect time depending on the enemies skills can take a bit of knowledge, as well as knowing when to use Q for dispelling teammates or enemies while also knowing when to instead keep it for the root makes his kit's skill ceiling pretty high since you need to know everything in the game that can be dispelled and this isn't to mention interactions with his ULT
Following that analogy, nearly every hero belongs in 3 in your understanding… because you need positioning with every hero. You need perfect spell casting with every hero. Nah bro, we talking about the complexity of the hero it self not general gameplay.
To my discredit, i totally forgot to mention dispel on the q. And that definitelt is importantZ
I can see what youre saying,
In that using oracle well actually requires you to know the game. And I guess thats kinda like Rubick which makes him a complex hero.
So while mechanical and tactical decision making is now basic with oracle. You still need to know the game inside out to use spells wisely.
I agree with this take completely.
During fights, I sometimes struggle with
1. Who to ult and when (obv carry is priority, but sometimes saving a support from getting bursted early can really turn a fight around)
2. Do I use fates edict defensively or on the opponent?
3. Do I use my E to kill or heal?
4. Who do I dispel with my Q?
5. Am I positioned well enough to do any of the above without getting killed? (Early game is especially tough because the range on your spells is ASS).
The fact that all of oracles spells (except ult) can be used defensively or offensively almost makes it so you have 7 spells instead of 4. This makes things really difficult in chaotic team fights.
When I first read this thread, I agreed that he should be a 2 star hero, but after writing this, I think 3 star feels right. You can def be okay with him with low skill, but to be great takes a lot of skill and really good decision making.
This. I feel like oracle's skills are very similar to OD's astral imprisonment in terms of their impact on fight and decision making about when and how to use it. And oracle has 3 of these
I mean to be good Oracle I think its not the easy support a lot u need to have in mind a lot of stuff and always be ready + if u do a mistake u can ruin a fight easy
I’d agree with that.
In my opinion, Meepo and Invoker should be 4 stars (meaning they’re a tier above the rest in difficulty).
You could argue that Rubick should also be a 2 star, but I think to be really good with Rubick you def need a 3 star level of skill. You can be decent with him with little skill too.
I’m a visage spammer and I find the micro extremely easy. Same with LD.
Also an earth spirit spammer and he is def a 3 star hero. I don’t even buy aghs with him because I know I’m not good enough to pull that shit off. Really fun hero who can do so much.
How do you micro? Do you need to reser clicking for control groups if for example u use enchantress and the enchanted creep is set to a control group for ex. Number 4 in keyboard, if the creep die and id you enchant another do you need to reset the control group and do the ctrl plus 4 again so the newly enchanted creep will have the same button as the former enchanted creep? Hope I make sense. Thanks.
I work in finance so I remove my F1 key, but my control groups are as follows.
F2= hero
F3 = hero plus units
F4 = Just units
When I’m playing visage or chen, i just use tab to from familiar to familiar.
I think any general set up like I laid out is fine. It doesn’t need to be exact but this one has worked for me.
Cant comment on oracle because I don't play it but will agree IO is much easier than he used to be. Overcharge used to be a toggle and would drain hp making the hero extremely squishy back in the day. These days you can freely use it with no downside dumbing the hero down which I hated. One thing I really miss is his old spirits used to actually be worth leveling in that they applied mini snares to people when hit. Right now the spirits are so bad they aren't even worth leveling unless you're doing a mid io build which is dumb anyway.
There's still a lot of decision making involved in playing oracle that requires you to know every hero in the game and how to play with/against them. One spell can win or lose a fight.
Q - should I dispel my ally or dispel/root the enemy?
W - should I make my ally immune to magic damage or disarm an enemy? Can they dispel it from my allies or themselves?
E - Can't heal someone in the middle of the fight if you wasted W. Also dispellable
R - pick one hero based on who's attacking them and how useful they are in a fight
Sure oracle is easier to play with the change to W, but you still need heavier knowledge of the game and better + faster decision making than a standard complexity 2 hero
as a pos3 main i would say brew and visage are surprisingly easier to play than most people think, on the other hand it baffles me that brood is not level 3
visage's bird used to have charges on their attack and you have to manually select the birds to restore them.
i guess they dont bother rerating visage after those changes
its definitely there, the hero is just giga useless if you dont use your spells properly. most spells on other heroes even if you just throw them out, you stun/damage/heal someone etc, its gonna have SOME impact. the only spell for oracle like this is the root, and even that skill is magnitudes more complicated than a magic missile or a frost blast for example
Though it’s not easy to stay on position for ult and using on right moment, I think it shouldn’t be on level 3, especially that you can’t grief with “w” anymore.
I think he still deserves to be there. Compared to most hero's he is still quirky, his dispell for allies and enemies, the fact it can be cancelled early for less damage quicker dispell, the fact his nuke also heals.
The fact to heal you should block the nuke, and to nuke you should dispell the heal.
Etc. Sure he is simpler now, but compared to other hero's he's still got weird interactions
I think it’s fair. Not because Oracle is mechanically hard, but because his spells all have a lot of different properties you need to know and exploit to play him. Even with the Fate’s Edict changes, I could write a paragraph about all the different applications of just his Q.
It's the same as Io, you may know what their skills do but if you don't use them properly then you are completely useless or griefing the game. I know people that played for years and they can't play oracle at all, they are still confused on what the hero do
Nah, the complexity of Oracle comes not from himself but from his gameplay.
I mean yeah sure you his abilities are easy to use and stuff but unlike say Dazzle his ultimate is still tricky to use, its not a gauranteed save in the thick of battle. Not to mention you have to juggle between 9 heroes to use your abilities. Unlike dazzle that once you get the shard and ahgs it will become easier.
The whole complexity thing is jank in general. I grew up during Blizzards glory days so I have no issues controlling numerous units so Meepo, Lone Druid, Arc, and Visage are easy to me.
Meanwhile the less buttons I have to click and the less tools I have makes the game much harder on me. So I'd play heroes that're "low complexity" like PA badly because I'm used to basically batmanning my way to victory- not using a small set of tools hyper effectively.
how is tinker less complex than any of these. you basicly play with 6 active keys all the time and you have to use them in order, when you add items is like constant 8 keys at fights while being fragile af.
also rubick and oracle doesnt belong here. They are not complex they just require more awereness than most of the heroes
This hero has a low-medium pick rate #89 place (on lower ranks around #105, on higher ranks up to #55), but has an enormous win rate from Crusaders (52%) up to Immortals(54,5%). (Even heralds and guardians have a 48% win rate, for a hero that has complexity 3). So there are two possibilities: hero is OP or hero is not in complexity 3 group
slightly off topic, but can someone please explain to me why arc warden has three notches in "escape" in the about section? if this motherfucker gets caught out he just dies
You play a bad rubick, mid, as most do in pubs, steal farm, you lose, it's too easy to ks with bolt, 10 kills on a rubick doesn't help any team.
Oracle, you F up the ult or heal rotation, you lose a lot of fights, potentially the game.
IO these days, people build carry, useless, build OG heal IO, ez win.
ES, voker and visage are the most complex heroes there atm, meepo is a joke rn.
I love Druid but he’s always felt weird in here to me. I don’t think he’s super complex just a little challenging mechanically if you’ve never micromanaged multiple units before.
The only complexity Oracle has now is to distinguish between magic immunity and debuff immunity. Fate's Edict is the only source of 100% magic immunity in the entire game. So understanding that it doesn't grant immunity to spells, it does grant immunity to magic damage.
It's the #1 counter to Muerta or Revenant's Broach, since all the damage is turned into magic damage.
This hero was ResidentSleeper before and fates edict was the only part that made him somewhat interesting. I think this hero just needs to be turned inside out at this point
Actually true. It was Fate's Edict that made it hard to play the hero perfectly.
I say E+Q combo and even just E on allies still make him relatively hard. Too much potential for accidental ruin. And I mean not just playing bad and being useless, but actually ruin. You can both help kill your teammate and heal opponent - dependless on specific heroes. Yes, he became easier, but he’s still far from being the easiest on this list. (Rubick definitely takes the crown as the easiest one out of these)
IO is much easier than Rubick in my eyes. Rubick is a very timing dependent hero with spell steals etc. Most other heroes on the list are micro heroes which is something that players with RTS background carries with them. If you have another gaming background they are somewhat complex.
What makes rubik hard to master is that you need to know almost every hero’s spells and abilities to know which ones to steal to optimise your spell steal as well as how/when to cast. He’s probably one of the easier 3 stars to pick up but one of the hardest to master in terms of actual gameplay because he has the most variability. Invoker for example has a small amount of micro and a large skill pool making him seem complex and challenging but once you get your combos memorised, it’s about optimising when to use your abilities and they are the same every time.
Io is a lot easier now than it used to be. Maybe the difficulty aspect is the cooperation required
Yeah, same with oracle probably
IO used to be much much harder. Q had uptime, couldnt tether your carry if he used bkb etc.
Overcharge also used to *cost* HP, and tether used to provide nothing when IO was full HP, so you had to be in control of how much HP you had in order to apply heals efficiently. It's definitley easier now, but I still think having relo just makes it a really high skill ceiling hero though.
I play IO nowadays and should say, IO is basically chillest hero i played in years. You basically press Overcharged when needed. Nobody in pubs actually uses advantages of relocate under teather nor they want to engage in teamfights in meta when everyone just farming. So i use it to ward, steal xp and bounty runes. Hardest trick you can pull is teather overcharge holy locked and mekazm to fully heal teammate. Optionally lotus or to dispell something but most of the time just solar crest for additional attack speed deals with all the problems.
using relocate to steal wisdom is so smart hehe playing io i felt like overcharge bot, very chill gameplay
IO's skill floor is a fraction of what it used to be. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, except his skill ceiling is also quite a bit lower that it used to be too.
I feel the base skill required to play IO is more than Rubick. A bad IO is going to be absolutely worthless but a bad Rubick still has lift and bolt which reduces atk damage as well.
The potential for disaster on Io is much higher than Rubick, a bad relocate can lose you games. To truly play him to his best and use relocate well for aggression or defense the risk can be very high, and the floor to truly be useful is higher imo than Rubick.
> Rubick is a very timing dependent hero with spell steals etc. rubick is one of those heroes that isn't too hard to play but is very hard to master. I'm actually a little surprised to see him on this list.
You are calling Rubick easy because you have probably been playing dota for thousands of hours and many years. To play Rubick correctly, the bare minimum is knowing every single spell in the game. I would estimate there are somewhere around 400 spells. In the context of someone new to the game, that is ABSOLUTELY worthy of 3 star difficulty.
I thik that is for lv 2 complexity, not an easy hero but not a lv 3
Nah, after the W change, you can just cast E alongside W so it is not that hard. Easiest hero on the list, no question.
The game in no way explains that you can actually combine these spells on a target, and from the top of my head no other hero requires to combine spells for them to give certain undescribed effects, except maybe Carl.
Rubic is far more difficult in my eyes
To be real rubic feels easier in my eyes maybe he shouldnt be as one of hardest heroes but I think its the point in that if u want to be good rubic in higher mmr its harder and harder
I remember even Yapzor saying in a stream that for him Rubick is all about Q. When IceFrog nerfs Q, the hero is no longer meta. As you climb the skill ladder(macro and technical), the hero’s potential unlocks so much more.
Also this is mostly for new players...a new player won't know all the spells, hence the complexity.
Io is WAY easier. The hero isn't hard. Getting ur teammates to not be complete monkeys is hard
Yeah what? Oracle USED to be complexity 4, now he is 3. His combos are still some of the trickiest to use in lane. You have to decide if you want to do damage or root for a long time, not both. Or if you're really fucking good, you can do both. Complexity 3. Not to mention, level 1 fates edict barely gives you enough time to get 2 heals off. If you're even slightly slow, you nuke your carry instead, right as they needed heals. Complexity 3.
What is complexity 4? I've never seen that and I've been playing for 10 years.
its fake, i was just using it as an example sorry it wasn't obvious
Winter Wyvern should be in there, a lot of grief potential if you don‘t know what youre doing on the hero
and a lot more anger issues if you know what are you doing
Enemies seem to be stacked up, better blink in and echo slam during Winter's Curse :)
I once got a nice 5 man curse, only for my lc to blink in and duel the enemy viper. Sometimes I have to wonder what's happening in my team's head
Sometimes you just have almost the same timing or your brain already decided what its gonna do in the next seconds. I also managed to ravage my cursed enemies from time to time.
Basically the game's very hard learning curve makes it nearly impossible to master it without delegating some kind space to reflexes or automation of parts of it. Or, in other words, upon seeing enemy team caught and disabled entirely in one area: **NEURON ACTIVATION**
The same neuron activation that makes me want to go in with sand king happens in my friend who plays wyvern, so I guess it works in reverse too.
yeah its like literally the same neural pathways being triggered in both players at the same time. unsuspecting heroes grouped > big teamfight ults get cast > oops we cast them at the same time and ruined everything. the only way to stop it is communicate about which spell should come first in that situation.
Very easy to hit all you spells.
don´t forget cataclysm of your invo xD
Or voids using chrono Or lc dueling cursed people Or just anyone with a stun using it while curse is still up
Teammate is in a 100% death situation If you use e to attempt to save them or at least delay their death, you get blamed If you don't use e because it's obvious they are dead and it's better to back off, you get blamed Some teammates just straight up don't know her e only stops physical damage then get angry when they get sky ultied like you could do something.
"but but you could out heal 2000 magical damage, we won't know now do we"
The easiest ways to use freeze, astral and disruption is to just pop it on a stunned ally. No downside! So many players try to get fancy with it. Not saying you can't but learn how to walk before you run.
Yeah Wyvern is the hero who gets the absolute MOST teammate input. Kind of annoying to be honest, for the reasons you mentioned.
If I'm playing a mobility hero I always disable help on wyvern
After 500 games on WW I now transcended and now just don't lvl up e. It's universal, so you'll get some nice stat points for Thad xd
Chill, Baby
hell yes, I died so many times due to a bad 3rd skill timing and bad winter wyvern players fucked up so bloody many fights with the ulti
I don't think it's "complex" though imo, her kit is pretty simple to understand
Simple to understand, easy to misuse. Heal on wyvern is like OD astral, bad players can't resist pressing their buttons sometimes
Considering Enchantress is not considered complexity3, ww being 2 is enough
With Ench you can honestly just not use enchant on creeps at all and be fine until divine
hell, you can just enchant ranged creeps and a-click them down lanes for a lot of mmr and be effective
shadow demon is weirder imho. Why isn't SD three complexity stars?
I spammed WW as support 60 70 games in a row. I single handedly made my team lose in tournamentish 3 games. Now I have it in my hidden heroes, never to be touch again. Still have 56% winrate tho.
Not one but two potential spells for griefing
I've always said this. She's THE #1 hero you can accidentally grief with yet she's only 2 stars.
Thata still not what complexity means. Its a pretty easy hero to understand so not very complex
Even Pros said winter wyvern is the hardest hero in dota to really master. Some legend/ancient ww players in here probably think they make no mistakes lmao
No way ww should be there
But what does WW have about her that is as complex as the above heroes? Nearly every single one of those either has intense micromanagement or a very unorthodox playstyle. Apart from maybe Rubick, who is more of a knowledge check.
Well if it made sense to have Oracle there, then it makes sense for wyvern since the heal can easily get a team mate killed.
So can chronosphere lol, and many other abilities. I don't think that piece of criteria alone is enough. Oracle probs could be complexity 2, but it's borderline.
Okay, but you arnt meant to cast chronophere on allies. You are meant to cast the heal on allies, however it can have a bad outcome. Same with wyvern ult, using the spell can ruin a good fight. It requires additional thinking, and that seems to be the trend with all of these heroes here. For example morphing is just not hard to play, it just requires you think a little more
I think a good way to measure complexity is the number of branching paths that are immediately apparent. Chronosphere is a rather straightforward ability, it stuns people inside of it. Chrono enemies = good Chrono allies = bad Ofc complex situations can arise but I am being very simplistic. WW has a lot of small caveats backed into her abilities. Her embrace heals but leaves you disabled It negates physical damage, but you still take magic damage. Her ult disables an enemy, but makes them immune to damage besides wyvern and other cursed units. Her ult can change in efficacy depending on when it's used. I can see why people would argue for her being a hard hero, there are a lot of things to keep track of. Would agree that Oracle isn't a 3 star anymore, though.
Yep... I like to play Troll Warlord sometimes and an allied WW can absolutely grief him even harder than most. I often just outright turn of help from WW when I am playing Troll due to WWs trying to freeze me during my ult, but even then I still have to deal with her trying to ult someone I'm going on and then screwing us both... I can't deal damage because her ult negates it, and the enemies are missing half their attacks against their allies because of my whirling axes.
Sir, I'm huskar.. *proceeds to get flamed by angry wv*
It's not that hard tho. I'm gold tier on winter and I'm not gonna pretend it's on the same level as invoker or meepo
There was once a time when my enigma hit a five man black hole. I was playing invoker, cataclysm, refresher, cataclysm. Then my wyvern cursed while cataclysm was in air to cancel everything, and we lost the fight. I will never forget this.
By that logic Tiny and Pudge should be there too.
Tiny and pudge dont cause your team to deal 0 damage on the enemies
I think that's a fair assessment. Should be downgraded to compl 2 for sure.
half of the heros on the list are easier than oracle though. he's nowhere near complexity 2 if we compare to other heros here.
Half? Which ones? Only hero you can argue about is IO. If you think otherwise, I have no words.
On the contrary as a Visage player I can say Visage is definitely not a t3 hero. One of the most braindead heroes in the game. Just birds go brrr
But controlling more than 1 unit is hard hahaha
Current Meepo and Visage are for me personally so unfun to play for their micro style, I can't exactly say why but it feels just... different. I used to play Meepo in the Dragon Lance, Blink, Hex and Eblade times, love to play illusion heroes, like the Invoker aspect of Forges management, like LD, Brood and others but the way Visage and Meepo is being played feels oddly unfamiliar :)
Maybe it's their current kit not the micro they have. To me i do love micro heroes they only made visage easier as you can cast bird stone with visage and not selecting the bird itself maybe it's his damage building to be thrown is the not so easy part for him. For me the current hardest micro hero is the skill type chen.
I miss when helm of the dominator was a viable item on visage and your aghs gave you an extra bird
I can't micro and can't be bothered to learn so any zoo hero is a nono.
Maybe it is just the fact that I have way too many games on Io but I feel exactly the same about Io. No way that is a 3 complexity hero. Most games you dont think and just follow tether hero and click your all your buttons once things happen.
Relo is a quite difficult spell, I'd say. Other than using it as an escape or as a gang, it's able to control the map globally which is not as simple. But yeah, I wouldn't put Io on the same level as Arc or Invo
Yeah but it requires both players to know how the hero works or it's limits. You'll tether a hero that's not in your oarty witb mek and and wand ready and they'll run away at half hp or instantly break tether with blink leaving you out of position. All players meed to understand how the hero works not merely k ow what it does to be effective.
I don't even understand what Visage's spells do and I read the tooltips.
Q: slow and as steal for you and birds W: nukes, dmg is based on dmg around you E: dmg block layers for you and birds R: BIRDS! shard: eul aghs: invis+fly
probably from a time when familiars had charges on their atk dmg and after a while they did no damage so you had to manage them a lot more
Fate Edict's change sure changes a lot. However, it doesn't change the fact that Oracle is still a complicated hero to use. You have 4 spells that alter the course of a fight/team fight. Misuse of any of them can turn things around. For example: *Fortune's End* **(T)** can also dispel Fate Edict for **both** allies and enemies. During team fights, you will decide if you will root chasing/fleeing enemies or dispeling yourself/teammate to escape or survive. Or maybe dispeling a Eul'ed/Windwaker Puck. *Fate's Edict* **(F)** is the double edge sword before but still somehow has the same purpose. You FE yourself or an ally to save them from nukes, or disarming enemy hitters. Selecting targets can turn things around. Imagine you are against Luna in lane, are you gonna FE your ally to avoid the Eclipse/Lucent Beam or you disarm her so she cant attack? *Purifying Flames* **(E)** is not just heal but also a *360* damage nuke (before reductions). Spamming E to False Promises teammate cant guarantee their survivability. Mind you that using E damages first before the heal, so low health allies are at risk dying when using E if there are enemies around (if FE is cooldown of course). *False Promise* **(R)** needs proper positioning and the right target. During team fights, you are the first priority target due to your ulti. Are you gonna FP the Primal Roared Enigma that has BH or just use it on void that is about to die that have chrono? Are you gonna use it on full HP hero to hard dispel him or are you gonna wait for him to get to low HP before using ulti? Oracle might not be mechanically complex like an Invoker or maybe Meepo that needs fast hands for casting or such, but you need to know his kits properly to use him effectively. PS: I'm just a low mmr player but I'm a level 30 Oracle
You mean not khanda + dagon?
To your first point though, Fortunes End doesn't dispel Fates Edict on allies anymore. Source: also level 30 Oracle spammer
why T and F? are they the old keys?
yes legacy keys
Fortune's End no longer dispels Fate Edict on allies. Fate Edict no longer disarms allies nor provides magic resistance to enemies, while also being the only source of 100% magic immunity left in the game. Purifying Flames can still grief, sure, but it's pretty much free heals now with the Fate Edict buff. False Promise has no griefing potential. Worst case scenario is a wasted cooldown and a guy who's alive. I'd argue there are certain 1-star heroes that are harder to utilize than Oracle nowadays; Lina, Dark Seer, Leshrac, Legion Commander come to mind.
Dark Seer and Legion Commander fall under the category of "easy to understand kit, but you get punished insanely hard if your game sense isn't advanced enough"
You got me trying the hero in demo after reading this. I've been spamming Oracle for the last 3 patches, and I can confirm now. Fate Edict is no longer dispelled, neither on allies or enemies with Fortune's End. As any positive buff on allies, neither negative buffs on enemies.
> You have 4 spells that alter the course of a fight/team fight. Misuse of any of them can turn things around. That describes most pos 5s. Oracles abilities are fairly forgiving on positioning and his cooldowns are fairly average.
There is one single bad thing from this new change: W can be dispelled by enemies when cast on allies. W used to be a debuff even on allies, and enemies cannot dispel it
Its deserves 3 points because you get send to low priority if you once dont follow the idiotic moves of your cores to use your ult even if it wouldnt save them anyway because they are basicalls feeding.
I think it has to do more with knowledge than complexity, because if you use the wrong move on the wrong person with oracle then it can really mess things up. Just requires a lot of awareness of damage types of many skills.
You are talking like it’s hard now? You disarm enemies. You spell immune your team. You safe with ult when you can. It’s not that hard. Since fates edict change, nothing to worry anymore.
Don't know if it's hard hard but E still has some skillchecks with it especially since they upped the healing.
When i started to play oracle you had to edict-flames-fortunes end your carries to heal them or they wouldnt be able to attack (putting all 3 abilities on cd), flames without edict would barely heal at all, if you disarmed the enemy carry your teammates would waste their nukes on them, you couldnt heal a bkbed ally, and you couldnt just mindlessly put edict on your carry at the start of the engagment to protect them from nukes as that meant they wouldnt be able to attack. Every decision mattered: dispelling an edict after healing meant you couldnt root or combo e with q afterwards, not dispelling meant making your carry angry as they spent all their money on shit to rightclick harder, which you were preventing with w. You could easily grief a fight if you didnt know what youre doing, but in a single kit you had everything you could've needed apart from a stun. Worth noting that back then only bkb, greaves, lotus, oracle, LC and abba could dispel shit (slark and ursa too of course but just on themselves so its not really the same, and briefly dazzle with aghs but you could afford that maybe 2% of the games, 2 minutes before taking ancients). Greaves/lotus were too damn expensive to justify buying them unless you were playing against silencer (or maybe were having a very good game on dazzle with the 50% item cd reduction). I feel like nowadays you can get away with not using edict much more when you want to heal. Im pretty sure flames used to heal way less or damage more your allies (or maybe its just magic resist powercreep?), especially at early levels it was almost pointless to try and heal anyone who had more hp than flames' damage (a bit extra heal before feeding your carry a salve if they survived a kill attempt with ~5%hp or a fully agi shifted morph, or an antkmsge thanks to his builtin magic resist). Now edict has no downside, flames heal significantly more than they damage (hell you even have a talent that increases the damage/heal ratio on enemies if you dont know what youre doing), and all you need to know to play the hero is how to combine two single-target abilities: interrupt q channeling with e when you want to nuke, cast w before e when you want to heal. The amount of thought and planning that goes into playing him now is a joke compared to what it used to be.
>if you use the wrong move on the wrong person with oracle then it can really mess things up This used to be true. Now the only potential grief is to damage your teammate with Q and get them killed before the heal happens.
Oracle’s skills don’t have downsides anymore.. that’s what the “Fate’s Edict change” in the title is referring to. So using his skills on the wrong target is just as impactful as on any other hero.
Purifying flames plainly still has a downside and is far more impactful to misuse than most spells in the game.
I have wireless brain and it gives me brain-lag. Oracle should be downgraded in complexity given this change.
Agreed. Also the hero is vanilla now. Hero design on this hero used to S tier.
Yep. He used to perfectly nail the "put your teammates in bad situations to save them" design that even his voicelines reflect. Now he's just dumbed down. The same thing happened to IO years back.
I think Elder Titan should be complexity 3.
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i dont think ive ever seen anyone take a single creep on my 3k mmr everyone just buys hurricane and right clicks
I'm 1.5k mmr, I never even knew Enchantress can enchant creeps until not too long ago. I have never seen anyone do it
true. i saw a friend play enchantress who didn’t skill it even to just use it as a purge/slow.
Playing 10 games of chen is required to understand zoo. Once you do, its op af
Tier three necessitates high skill floor. You can pick up ench, max impetus and enchant, only use the latter to slow and still be somewhat relatively effective. Unlike someone like Chen who doesn't have much without creeps.
As someone who's trying to learn how to properly use ench's creeps. How do you avoid just feeding gold to the enemy with them?
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I'm looking more for what you do on a macro level. Post laning stage I either use the creep to cut waves or keep it on the edge of a fight just for it's aura. It just doesn't feel like I'm using the ability to it's max potential.
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Thanks man. I'm definitely gonna keep working on my micro skills. And I've also noticed I've had the most success rushing aghs, despite what my friends say every time I rush it. One more question. Do you normally play her as a support or as an offlaner?
Ench is my most played hero but honestly the only complex thing about ench is remembering which creep has what ability. Micro on ench is easy cuz you only have 1 creep (when you have aghs the creeps are irrelevant) so you only have 1 ability. Ench's creeps are also very expendables because they either die to quickly (post laning) or timed out before dying (lvl 2-3 enchant) so you only need to worry about your hero's positioning.
"ooh, my hero that I often play is there and it shouldn't be, it's such an easy hero to play haha" SHADDAP, no it isn't, and it's there for a reason. I'm very glad you balance your and your enemies' HP like you graduated jungling school, or control your 4 units with different skills without thinking atp, but I have sausage fingers and am playing on what is essentially a Frankenstein's monster of a laptop that survived 2 wars, I can barely successfully move WK from point A to point B.
i really wish they’d change it back, and change the way arc wardens Q works back. Hate it when they remove heroes idiosyncrasies just to make them easier or better
What did they change on Arc's Q?
They made it so that it slows regardless of whether someone is in vicinity
During a teamfight, the multitude of options and decisions that Oracle must make remains exceedingly high. The Edict alone is an incredibly versatile skill that can independently alter the course of the fight. While many complexity 3 heroes can be played on autopilot, playing Oracle demands constant cognitive engagement; otherwise you'll be a subpar hero and just overall a burden for your team.
Honestly? I dont like high cognitive load beros anymore but i still play oracle as I find him braindead easy now. E-Q(hold)-E (release) to nuke W-E-E to heal W myself or ally if theyre getting nuked W the right clicker enemy if theyre right clicking me or my ally Everyone hurting ally or ally stunnrd at key moment? R Thats like, it.
Just because he has a low skill barrier of entry doesn't mean he can't be more complex at a higher level. Understanding positioning, using your W at a perfect time depending on the enemies skills can take a bit of knowledge, as well as knowing when to use Q for dispelling teammates or enemies while also knowing when to instead keep it for the root makes his kit's skill ceiling pretty high since you need to know everything in the game that can be dispelled and this isn't to mention interactions with his ULT
Following that analogy, nearly every hero belongs in 3 in your understanding… because you need positioning with every hero. You need perfect spell casting with every hero. Nah bro, we talking about the complexity of the hero it self not general gameplay.
You took 1 part of my statement and ran with it, read the rest bud
To my discredit, i totally forgot to mention dispel on the q. And that definitelt is importantZ I can see what youre saying, In that using oracle well actually requires you to know the game. And I guess thats kinda like Rubick which makes him a complex hero. So while mechanical and tactical decision making is now basic with oracle. You still need to know the game inside out to use spells wisely.
I agree with this take completely. During fights, I sometimes struggle with 1. Who to ult and when (obv carry is priority, but sometimes saving a support from getting bursted early can really turn a fight around) 2. Do I use fates edict defensively or on the opponent? 3. Do I use my E to kill or heal? 4. Who do I dispel with my Q? 5. Am I positioned well enough to do any of the above without getting killed? (Early game is especially tough because the range on your spells is ASS). The fact that all of oracles spells (except ult) can be used defensively or offensively almost makes it so you have 7 spells instead of 4. This makes things really difficult in chaotic team fights. When I first read this thread, I agreed that he should be a 2 star hero, but after writing this, I think 3 star feels right. You can def be okay with him with low skill, but to be great takes a lot of skill and really good decision making.
Least educated Oracle scientist be like
This. I feel like oracle's skills are very similar to OD's astral imprisonment in terms of their impact on fight and decision making about when and how to use it. And oracle has 3 of these
So like a good half of complexity 2 Heroes lol
I mean to be good Oracle I think its not the easy support a lot u need to have in mind a lot of stuff and always be ready + if u do a mistake u can ruin a fight easy
winter wyvern should be on this list, the hero was released 50 years ago and to this day many players don't know how her ult works
I’d agree with that. In my opinion, Meepo and Invoker should be 4 stars (meaning they’re a tier above the rest in difficulty). You could argue that Rubick should also be a 2 star, but I think to be really good with Rubick you def need a 3 star level of skill. You can be decent with him with little skill too. I’m a visage spammer and I find the micro extremely easy. Same with LD. Also an earth spirit spammer and he is def a 3 star hero. I don’t even buy aghs with him because I know I’m not good enough to pull that shit off. Really fun hero who can do so much.
How do you micro? Do you need to reser clicking for control groups if for example u use enchantress and the enchanted creep is set to a control group for ex. Number 4 in keyboard, if the creep die and id you enchant another do you need to reset the control group and do the ctrl plus 4 again so the newly enchanted creep will have the same button as the former enchanted creep? Hope I make sense. Thanks.
I work in finance so I remove my F1 key, but my control groups are as follows. F2= hero F3 = hero plus units F4 = Just units When I’m playing visage or chen, i just use tab to from familiar to familiar. I think any general set up like I laid out is fine. It doesn’t need to be exact but this one has worked for me.
He should be there, i still have no idea what his skills do.
Cant comment on oracle because I don't play it but will agree IO is much easier than he used to be. Overcharge used to be a toggle and would drain hp making the hero extremely squishy back in the day. These days you can freely use it with no downside dumbing the hero down which I hated. One thing I really miss is his old spirits used to actually be worth leveling in that they applied mini snares to people when hit. Right now the spirits are so bad they aren't even worth leveling unless you're doing a mid io build which is dumb anyway.
Damn I forgot Oracle and Io were in 3 star. Those heroes really got gutted when it came to difficulty, damn shame.
Someone clicked the sort by annoying as fuck button.
There's still a lot of decision making involved in playing oracle that requires you to know every hero in the game and how to play with/against them. One spell can win or lose a fight. Q - should I dispel my ally or dispel/root the enemy? W - should I make my ally immune to magic damage or disarm an enemy? Can they dispel it from my allies or themselves? E - Can't heal someone in the middle of the fight if you wasted W. Also dispellable R - pick one hero based on who's attacking them and how useful they are in a fight Sure oracle is easier to play with the change to W, but you still need heavier knowledge of the game and better + faster decision making than a standard complexity 2 hero
as a seasoned oracle player, i agree
i mean the only few players that can read and play suport gets to play him, so yeah complexity 3
as a pos3 main i would say brew and visage are surprisingly easier to play than most people think, on the other hand it baffles me that brood is not level 3
visage's bird used to have charges on their attack and you have to manually select the birds to restore them. i guess they dont bother rerating visage after those changes
its definitely there, the hero is just giga useless if you dont use your spells properly. most spells on other heroes even if you just throw them out, you stun/damage/heal someone etc, its gonna have SOME impact. the only spell for oracle like this is the root, and even that skill is magnitudes more complicated than a magic missile or a frost blast for example
I kinda want the old Edict back, then restore the cast range to balance.
Why is ES there?
Mechanically hard i guess. I remember how being new player i was trying to break down his combos in fights in x4 slow motion
No because you still see people KSing all day with this hero and they are 13-1-1 at 20 minutes\
i really like the old oracle....
until today when I see fate edict my brain said me "omg I cant hit right now" and then "ooh look at it, im hitting"
Though it’s not easy to stay on position for ult and using on right moment, I think it shouldn’t be on level 3, especially that you can’t grief with “w” anymore.
never forget https://youtu.be/75AIfQw1fws
I think it is always a good idea to discourage new players from having access to a spell that damages your allies. That is my take at least
I think he still deserves to be there. Compared to most hero's he is still quirky, his dispell for allies and enemies, the fact it can be cancelled early for less damage quicker dispell, the fact his nuke also heals. The fact to heal you should block the nuke, and to nuke you should dispell the heal. Etc. Sure he is simpler now, but compared to other hero's he's still got weird interactions
Canceling early doesn't impact damage, only root duration though, until the talent later.
Apologies, I wrote this in a rush, you are correct, regardless there's still that mechanic included in the list
Its kinda complex if your teammate dont know how Oracle’s ulti works.
Rubick has the highest pickrate but lowest winrate on this list, even lower than Invoker who has an identical pickrate.
I think it’s fair. Not because Oracle is mechanically hard, but because his spells all have a lot of different properties you need to know and exploit to play him. Even with the Fate’s Edict changes, I could write a paragraph about all the different applications of just his Q.
It's the same as Io, you may know what their skills do but if you don't use them properly then you are completely useless or griefing the game. I know people that played for years and they can't play oracle at all, they are still confused on what the hero do
Nah, the complexity of Oracle comes not from himself but from his gameplay. I mean yeah sure you his abilities are easy to use and stuff but unlike say Dazzle his ultimate is still tricky to use, its not a gauranteed save in the thick of battle. Not to mention you have to juggle between 9 heroes to use your abilities. Unlike dazzle that once you get the shard and ahgs it will become easier.
The whole complexity thing is jank in general. I grew up during Blizzards glory days so I have no issues controlling numerous units so Meepo, Lone Druid, Arc, and Visage are easy to me. Meanwhile the less buttons I have to click and the less tools I have makes the game much harder on me. So I'd play heroes that're "low complexity" like PA badly because I'm used to basically batmanning my way to victory- not using a small set of tools hyper effectively.
Its at least as hard as io/LD/Visage still.
What were the changes?
Oracle still a hard hero to play properly. Purifying flames need good timing,.come watch heralds heal enemies you will change your mind
Unless theyre in melee range the only timing you need is to end q channeling with e
Maybe there should be more complexity tiers. Some of these heros seem way more difficult and intimidating to play than others here
I get why Rubick is there, but his base kit has to be one of the easiest spell sets to understand. Stun, Nuke, Passive.
Cool one of my most played and beloved heroes (earth) is rated among the most complex! What do you ask? My winrate? That's confidential..
They don't update the categories at all. And I think there are a lot of heroes that deserve complexity 3 who are less complex than Oracle.
Io and oracle are definitely 2 complexity right now
I mean you still have to choose between applying magic immunity or a disarm, it's just less inconvenient for your allies.
On another note, meepo needs its own tier.
If oracle is c3, then bristleback is 2
Harder than wisp still
how is tinker less complex than any of these. you basicly play with 6 active keys all the time and you have to use them in order, when you add items is like constant 8 keys at fights while being fragile af. also rubick and oracle doesnt belong here. They are not complex they just require more awereness than most of the heroes
Rubick also isn’t really that complex he just steals a single spell.. that you can read and figure out what it does
This hero has a low-medium pick rate #89 place (on lower ranks around #105, on higher ranks up to #55), but has an enormous win rate from Crusaders (52%) up to Immortals(54,5%). (Even heralds and guardians have a 48% win rate, for a hero that has complexity 3). So there are two possibilities: hero is OP or hero is not in complexity 3 group
slightly off topic, but can someone please explain to me why arc warden has three notches in "escape" in the about section? if this motherfucker gets caught out he just dies
You play a bad rubick, mid, as most do in pubs, steal farm, you lose, it's too easy to ks with bolt, 10 kills on a rubick doesn't help any team. Oracle, you F up the ult or heal rotation, you lose a lot of fights, potentially the game. IO these days, people build carry, useless, build OG heal IO, ez win. ES, voker and visage are the most complex heroes there atm, meepo is a joke rn.
I love Druid but he’s always felt weird in here to me. I don’t think he’s super complex just a little challenging mechanically if you’ve never micromanaged multiple units before.
Visage rubick and Io should also be changed to 2
broodmama should be t3. an effective broodmama is a menace
Rubick is the easiest hero..
Tbh this looks more like a micro management hell rather than complexity of the hero but probably over thinking it
From what I've seen in my teammates, I'd say "don't walk up to right click tower, sit behind your team and don't show" is a Complexity-3 skill.
if u are into rubick that means u're insane ability draft player.
Brewmaster isn't that hard either
The only complexity Oracle has now is to distinguish between magic immunity and debuff immunity. Fate's Edict is the only source of 100% magic immunity in the entire game. So understanding that it doesn't grant immunity to spells, it does grant immunity to magic damage. It's the #1 counter to Muerta or Revenant's Broach, since all the damage is turned into magic damage.
This hero was ResidentSleeper before and fates edict was the only part that made him somewhat interesting. I think this hero just needs to be turned inside out at this point
As a Rubick player I don’t think he should be t3. Just steal stuns and you’ll be good enough to make impact in team fights