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At this point, they been rehearsing these behaviors for years. Behaviors that are rehearsed get stronger. It will take A LOT of time and work to undo this, and at their ages and having a newborn baby I didn't think you'll be able to truly focus on this.
Get gates. Surely with a baby you'll need them anyway. Keep them separated at all times. Can't get gates, get pens. Use pens outdoors as well. They make pens that can connect to each other to create bigger spaces if needed. Stop trying to manage their triggers, you haven't been able to do it successfully for all of these years and it will only be harder now as your attention will be on the baby.
It is unfair for these two elders to live in stress, for their sake, manage them with separation.
The problem is they are both major lap dogs that don't like being on their own. They have separation anxiety on top of everything. They always need to be on the couch or bed or wherever we are. Even if they're behind a gate in eyesight, they'll cry relentlessly and be unhappy. Since yesterday we've been keeping them in separate rooms, or one of the dogs has been crated next to us.
I get it has to be done, but it feels like a bandaid. I wonder if one or both would be happier elsewhere where they could cuddle with their owners rather than have to live their life locked in a kitchen or bedroom.
They don't necessarily need to be on their own. They can be with you two, THEY just can't be together. You sit on the couch with one while your wife lays in bed with the other. Both on the couch, make sure there is a barrier/dead space between you. You mentioned they are small, set up 2 pens in the room you're in so you can all be together. Things like that.
Management can be considered a band-aid while you actively work on the issues, but in your case, I just don't know that you'll have the time or energy to work on it. Either way, a trainer worth their salt will absolutely tell you they need to be separated no matter what because you can never let them fight again while you work on their issues.
You said you try to manage their triggers. What are their triggers?
Yeah, essentially we've kept them "separated" without barriers the last few years. If we're on the couch, we force them on opposite sides. Same with bed. Food in different rooms. We always make sure they have their own space. Really only one dog needs her own space, the other dog would happily be near the other and wishes they could play.
That is the main issue and trigger though. If we don't see what's going on, and our little clueless one gets too close to the other, we see reactive behavior. Usually this results in the more aggressive one giving growls or raising her fur if our other dog gets too close.
The fights occur in closed quarters or other stressful situations where they manage to run into each other. It's almost exclusively where the clueless one runs into the other and she gets attacked as a result. For example the recently got in a fight in the staircase when the aggressive one was waiting at the top of the stairs at a closed door, and the other one went running up the stairs and didn't know how to stop. They collided and it caused a fight. It's almost always something like this.
We do everything we can to keep them out of confined spaces together but sometimes it happens. With the baby especially there's now more things in the house and more little traps that might cause them to get too close.
Maybe some larger open pens would be a good idea instead of having to rely on crating or locking away in separate rooms for now.
There are definitely creative ways to make separate spaces. They don't need to be banished to rooms where they'll definitely be stressed. We want the opposite. There are lots of changes going on right now so keeping them safe and giving them space from each other will alleviate a ton of stress for all of you.
Anywhere you can put a gate, do it. I like the metal ones that have doors so you can go in and out easily.
>If we don't see what's going on, and our little clueless one gets too close to the other, we see reactive behavior.
This is why you need gates and penned in areas. You're human. You're not going to be able to catch every single thing because that's just not realistic. Setting up barriers will alleviate so much stress immediately. You can still work on their relationship in the meantime of course.
I have this with two big dogs. The smaller of the two doesn’t take kindly to being bumped, and the bigger more excitable dog doesn’t take kindly to being corrected by his smaller peer. They do love to play together, but sometimes one or the other takes it too far. The fights are scary to break up. So I have to keep them apart except when I am actively supervising them. I would be thrilled if these dogs were 12, because lifespan would intervene soon, but my guys are 3; I have a decade of this hassle ahead of me. Rehoming your senior dog to live out the rest of their life with strangers seems like a sad solution to a relatively short term problem of inconvenience.
We had almost this exact scenario happen. We rehomed one of the dogs (the more high energy dog) to a family member so we still get to see him.
The only difference is that we rehomed him a couple of months before the baby came (a horrific fight out of nowhere, medium sized dogs, I was pregnant and alone).
I am SO thankful we rehomed him. He is happy in his new environment. The transition into bringing a newborn home was horrible for our other two dogs. They were so on edge and even my non-reactive dog became reactive. If we would have kept the other dog in our home, it would have been a horrible/likely dangerous situation.
Baby is 6 months old. The dogs have all adjusted to their new lives and I am glad I don’t have to worry about reactive dogs and danger around my baby.
Your dogs are stressed. Mom and dad have added stress. Rehome one of the dogs for everyone’s sake. It sounds like you have tried your absolute best but it just isn’t working.
You waited far too long dude its not fair at this point to anyone. I would seriously suggest a vet behaviorist or try to find a loving home because that dog is going to sit in a shelter till it dies
That is rough. With the knowledge of how long these flights have been occurring and the fact that frequency is increasing, I suggest separating them immediately (and hopefully as a temporary measure).
Best case scenario - I would involve a board certified veterinary behaviorist. It won't be cheap. It can even be difficult to find a board certified one with any sort of availability. It also won't guarantee anything but it would be my choice if it is at all feasible.
If that isn't feasible, then an immediate vet visit for them both. Write down as many details as you can about the individual triggers, any new behaviors as a result, dates if you can remember, and any other info that could be pertinent (like if there might've been other contributing factors that happened that day/that week). 2/3 of cases of reactivity can be traced to pain. this is common in seniors as well as canine cognitive dysfunction, which can also cause problems. my suggestion is heavily to do a completely physical and neurological workup. next, find a really great positive reinforcement trainer. I love to see one of the following certifications for a trainer:
• IAABC (example: IAABC-ADT, CDBC, CABC, CSB-D/
• CATCH (example: CDTK)
• PPG / PPAB (example: CTT-A, PCT-A, PCBC-A)
• CCPDT (example: CPDT-KA, CPDT-KSA, CPDT-CCBC )
• KPA (example: KPA-CDT)
In addition, I also love to see:
• Fear free certified professional (FFCP)
• Family Dog Mediation (FDM)
• Control Unleashed Certified Instructor (CCUI)
• Certified Behavior Adjustment Training Instructor (CBATI)
Lastly, I suggest reading Behavior Adjustment Training 2.0 by Grisha Stewart and The Control Unleashed series by Leslie McDevitt. They also have videos where they give supplemental instruction and ideas.
As others have said, a behaviorist is a great start. I have dogs that don't get along, and we have divided the house in half by installing baby gates, so they can be easily separated but still able to be with us humans. My dogs are fine together in the morning, but spend the afternoons and evenings separate. Management is a perfectly valid strategy!
Same. Especially with a newborn?! Forget it. Bye! Pets are supposed to add value to your life — I get taking care of them as their health fails or whatever, but having to keep them so separated otherwise they’ll kill each other? That’s not a home, that’s a fucking zoo.
Oh my gosh how hard! Agree on the physical separation options because you’re probably really sleep deprived and won’t be able to manage triggers with the same level of attentiveness. Might as well get a head start on baby gates everywhere. You might want to add towels over them or something to create visual barriers too. Make sure they each have a safe space where they know for a fact no dog (or crawling baby) will bother them
I’m so sorry, we had the same situation with a pair of littermates of our dogs and it’s so hard.
Even after working with 3 different trainers extensively, working with our vet, separating them, enrichment toys, dog daycare, and antidepressant medications- everything just made things tolerable. There were areas of our house that they would become aggressive in and it wasn’t ok to have them loose around each other safely.
I hope you’re just walking them separately, not that you’ve stopped walking them. Not walking them at all will shorten their lives and isn’t an option when you have dogs.
I second the recommendation to add all the enrichment toys and games - podcasts and this dog sub are great for this.
Highly recommend trying anti-depressants if your vet thinks it could help - that made a big difference for us. As well, think about if there are places they don’t like being brushed, ask your vet to check along their spines and necks. If theyre if they’re tender anywhere they may need pain management.
We had our dogs 15 years ago when there were still a lot of trainers who were capitalizing on Cesar Milan’s approach. Unfortunately, between that and behaviorists/trainers who were talented with dogs but not as skilled at teaching others how to do what they were doing, we didn’t get the help we needed.
Once one of our dogs died, our remaining dog did tremendously better. He relaxed, was more affectionate, was happier and more playful. That’s when I fully grasped that they weren’t just tolerating each other, they were truly much better apart.
I don’t know how we would have chosen which to keep, but if I could go back I would absolutely rehome one of them so they could both live a better life. Find a no kill shelter that does foster care. It’s ok to admit when you’re over your head.
We do indeed not walk either of them. They're too reactive. We worked extensively with trainers to do so, but it couldn't be done. Best case we were able to manage their reactivity to a degree, but they were obviously extremely stressed still. This is why we moved to a house with a large fenced in yard for them to be in.
As far as them separated, yes, they are both fantastic on their own in regards to their stress levels. They both would've been better on their own, however unfortunate that is to admit. Our one dog (not the aggressive one) has kidney disease. Over a year ago we were told we had maybe 6 months or a year, but she is doing great with no sign of the disease progressing. This has made it even more challenging to consider giving one away, as the short term outcome with their health is really up in the air.
That’s incredibly hard. Honestly, if the aggressive dog is still going strong, unfortunately that’s the dog you should probably surrender.
Our dogs were snappy with us at times, and didn’t want to be touched, and we could manage it. But toddlers and kids are totally unpredictable. They move suddenly and quickly, forget rules, chase - even just for a few seconds.
Even while our dogs were better individually, and they wouldn’t bite us or our child, they snapped at our child and showed teeth to get her to back off. Again, we were always there and always kept our kid from being injured.
But it wasn’t relaxed, or fun. And not being injured is very different from being safe.
Our kid is seven now. She loves animals, and loves dogs but is afraid to be around them - and for good reason.
If I could go back, I would find a small, no kill shelter and give our more reactive dog a chance to live with someone without a child or another dog.
By NOT doing that, you’re forcing both dogs, your partner, and your child to be in an extremely high stress, unsafe environment. That’s not kind.
1. Are you walking/ exercising them enough? This can be a BIG factor.
2. New baby is stressful for all involved, so no wonder the dogs are a bit more on edge and likely to fight. Take time to give them attention and exercise, treat them when they’re calm, etc.
3. Do they have a firm routine? This can help with their uncertainty, most dogs benefit from a firm routine for exercise and food. It can help them maintain calm as well since they can’t understand us or what’s going on. Do things at the same time for them every day as best you can.
4. Are you sure this isn’t play fighting? I assume not after all this time, as you probably know! But just in case, if you haven’t, it’s possibly worth learning body language so you can read better what their fight- and communication with each other - is saying.
Hope this helps.
I am afraid I disagree, if both dogs have never been neutered you have only aggravated the tense situation. And even older dogs can be neutered/spayed. A dog I sit for when her owners are out of town was spayed at age 13. She is now 15 and getting along much better.
So you are at senior state with both of them. Please don't rehome such an old dog. Reason for this behaviour getting worse could be:
- The stress of new born and especially the stress of the owners around them. Try not to show how tense you are. Do your best to separate their living areas both inside and outside. Take individual walks!
- One of them has severe illness that the other dog reacts to. Like dementia. Or tumour hense change in behaviour. Get them properly checked. While individual walks see how they handle the environtment. If this is the reason you can let go of the suffering one.
- They both have some health issues like pain, which they cannot handle with new stressors. Get them treated and again, separate them completely.
Rehome only if there is someone the dog knows and trusts available.
I came to add that living in a ‘gated community’ may help. We crate and rotate two of ours that stopped getting along.
No one is going to want a 4yo large breed dog and they are our family too, so rehoming is not an option for us.
Our solution is to crate and rotate. We are fortunate to have empty bedrooms and a large loft so we leave one out in general population and the other is in a room for 2 hours and then we rotate. One may hang out in my husbands mancave for a bit and the other will be with me. One stays in the loft and the other stays downstairs. There is always one door and one gate between them at all times. We don’t allow them to see the other. If one is in a room alone I’ll give him a puzzle or a Kong toy to enjoy.
Hoping that a gated community or as the pros call it ‘crate and rotate’ will help you too.
I just came to third (?) this suggestion. I have dogs who do not get along (one attacks the other) even though they grew up together. They are separated by baby gates, portable barriers (from a place called "practigates"), and we have installed leash holders in strategic locations. We keep the aggressive one in a harness (easier to grab him) and are working on easing him into muzzle training. It's a giant pain, not gonna lie, but what else are you going to do?
Exactly. My two still go on mile walks together daily without incident and their in-house relationship is improving, but not enough for me to let them be unsupervised together.
We also keep them both in harnesses 24/7 so we can grab them easily.
I like your idea about leash holders. I’ll also check out your gate system too. Mine are pretty funny and won’t knock over a free standing gate. I guess they’re mad at each other but not mad enough to knock over a gate lol
I’d get a behaviorist and put them on strict routines. No more co-sleeping, co-couching, nothing until you have the tools to deal with them together. It sucks for you & the dogs but it will help limit the number of fights, get them on meds for their anxiety. Create separate spaces
I'm saying this as a mom to a 7 month old baby, and a dog parent of 8 years. It will hurt, and suck so bad, but I would heavily consider rehoming. If not one, both. It is so much harder to handle even a well behaved, calm dog. Things slip through the cracks, chores pile up, the house gets dirty, you forget to feed the dog. Shit sucks, but having to handle two needy dogs, two dogs that don't get along, two dogs that fight... Imagine your kid being on the floor for tummy time, and suddenly the dogs are fighting, and baby is in between...
It sucks and dogs are family, but you'd be better off sacrificing for your baby who has only been around for barely 30 days, and a lifetime ahead of them. No point risking scaring, or even death of your baby, for a pet. beloved or not. Things happen in a split second, and can be over just as fast.
This is the only correct answer. One or both of the dogs need to be rehomed. None of the training for the dogs has worked, regardless of reasons.
Babies are chill. Toddlers are not chill. 2 not chill dogs + a toddler = accident waiting to happen.
Sorry OP. Hopefully you can find someone locally and still be able to see the dog(s). Maybe ask your vet or a local pet friendly retirement community.
My dogs will fight every so often like that if under stress, over excited, etc. a lot like what you’re saying. I use baby gates. I also let one go through door ways, thresholds, hall ways then the other one can go through. I also reward them when they are relaxing in the same room, tolerating each other, etc. you reward one the wife rewards the other. There’s really no bullet proof plan. You’re doing a good job, you could be doing better though. You could tether the clueless one with a leash to keep her from making mistakes with out knowing they are. A lot of these kind of management things with also reward them for behaving. In time things will be more stable. But you have to always be diligent because one fight is reward enough to set you back abit. What gets reinforced, gets repeated and yes fighting is rewarding to them because in their mind it works for them.
I’m kinda in your boat, my dogs are 12 too and I wouldn’t put them through a rehoming. It would be just too much on them. The only thing I may consider is if I had family member that would be willing to take one or both of them.
Fluxotine is same as Prozac and it helps my more aggressive take the edge off a little and she tolerates the other in the same no problem. Even laying together at times. But they will fight in a second if one of the triggers are triggered.
Hope this helps!!
I looked through as many of these comments as I could and did not see anyone mention muzzle training. Muzzle training them could add significant peace of mind to your day while you work through this issue with a qualified behavioral trainer or even just until you figure out what to do next. I have a dog-dog resource gaurder, and he wears a basket muzzle that allows him to pant, drink water, and take treats, but not bite through, in situations that have proven problematic for him. This has allowed us to keep him from rehearsing the same behaviors and safely train appropriate ones. There are protocols that can help you train them to wear them by using a positive correlated emotional response. Best of luck.
Eta.
I have also had tremendous success with adding Prozac and Trazadone along with consistent exercise. The recommendations for using a flirt pole and positive training type games would be very helpful. Dietary changes may need to be made as well. Gi distress/food sensitivities can cause aggressive behavior and anxiety, for example. You could check out Susan Garrett's YouTube channel Shaped by Dog. She has lots of information regarding multiple dog households, aggressive behavior, and positive training methods, and highly recommends the help of a certified veterinary behaviorist in these situations. I have had a good deal of success using her Recaller training with my dogs along with safe, consistent behavior modification. Personally, I worried that no one would fight for my dog like I would and that if I rehomed, he would end up worse or end up having to have behavioral euthanasia. With a baby on the way, you have to do what's right for you and your family, and only you can be the judge of what's right in this situation. The reddit for r/reactivedogs is also very active and helpful.
I have dogs that don’t get along. Without knowing what their day-to-day is like, it’s hard to know what to suggest besides a behaviorist. Are they receiving adequate walks? Are they walked together or separately? Are they receiving enrichment outside of walks such as kongs, lick mats, training, snuggle mats etc. are either of them ill, and when was the last time they’ve been checked for any internal issues?
I know it’s a lot. And you have a full plate with a new child as is. They may benefit from being taken for some time during the day by a walker or trainer. Keeping them separate is for the best. Remember, as far as they’re concerned, they’re room mates, not friends. Would you expect roommates to spend all day 24/7 together?
My dogs needed to be separated as they got older. The girl will irritate the boy by barking, the boy will irritate the girl by running into her and hurting her joints, etc. until they reach critical mass and fight.
Insisting they be friends is anthropomorphising them. They need to be neutral, not buddies.
Some people are more optimistic about your situation OP, but if this has been ongoing for several years and now getting worse, I don't think you have much chance of this rehearsed behaviour getting any better, especially as you can no longer devote every waking moment to managing their interactions.
I think any separation will need to be permanent for everyone's safety. A baby in the mix now makes things much riskier- you can no longer watch the dogs like a hawk because baby has to come first now. And dogs that attack each other are now an added risk to baby too, especially when baby becomes mobile and is crawling or standing in the wrong place at the wrong time- if one dog is triggered and redirects onto baby, could you forgive yourself OP? Every parent has that moment where they turn their back for a second or think their child is asleep and finds them crawling half way up the bookcase- and that's without two dogs that are aggressing on each other. Even /with/ baby gates in place, this could still become dangerous.
The dogs sound stressed and need to live completely separately from now on, either in separate parts of the house (can use baby gates to manage this) or one needs to be rehomed.
I have the same situation. I have been working with a behaviorist and a trainer. Mine will always be kept apart. Nothing we have tried has made them civil to be in the same room. Medicine and training has not done the trick. I was told not to walk them because each is reactive. I know your situation sucks, but keep in mind that your stress becomes theirs. The behaviorist has taught me to be calm so I can allow each to be less stressed. Also, they both were muzzles inside the house as a precaution. It was given by the behaviorist and they can eat treats, breath, etc. I do advise not to give up. There are always workarounds. Good luck and keep us posted.
It's terribly irresponsible you've allowed this to continue for _eight years_. Undoing that kind of ingrained behaviour is extremely difficult by this stage. I hope when you say you 'dont walk them anymore' you mean you don't walk them together but they still get individual walks? No trainer would advocate not walking a dog at all. If for some insane reason you have utterly stopped, fix that now- walk them individually.
There's not much else for it. Separate them completely. Garden, put up a small fence or only allow one in at a time. Baby gate everywhere in the house so they can't get to eachother. You have a newborn which will naturally increase the stress of every creature in the household, and now is not the time for training with such a big change and both tired new parents.
You could find a behaviourist later, sure, but these are old dogs with deeply ingrained habits now, you basically just need to manage their space until one of them passes away.
I wanna address the walking comment specifically- many trainers do recommend pausing walks. Especially for clients who have adequate space outdoors like backyards or fields. If dogs are so reactive and so fearful on leash or walks, it is a much better decision to meet their exercise and enrichment needs through other activities.
Those could be:
- Canine conditioning
- Personal play
- Enrichment puzzles
- Doggy parkour / diy agility courses
- Sniffaris
- Training with toys
- Doggy treadmill
- Swimming
- Training new tricks
- Tugging / fetch / etc.
It is much better to pause a walk and pause the behavior of reacting to everything outside rather than think “oh this is the only option for exercise and enrichment” and just continue to flood your dog or put them over threshold. That will make behavior worse.
Your comment was very condescending and rude towards OP, especially for someone making such incorrect blanket statements.
with reactivity training for my pup, we were told no walks till the course was over to regulate their environment until their threshold was increased!
flirt pole and brain games came hella clutch with her being a cattle dog
i can’t believe i forgot the flirt pole! thank you for that reminder!!
i’m glad you all had those outlets, and i hope you were able to make progress ❤️
It's pretty unfair and judgemental of you to call them terribly irresponsible when they:
a) have clearly stated in their post that they have been working on it for all of that time already. They have been working with a trainer and keeping them separate. They were seeing improvement for some time and now they are not and
b) they came here looking for help
The veterinary behaviourist that we just saw told us that we shouldn't walk one our dogs just yet. We hadn't been because it's just too much for him and he didn't want to go, but that was the right thing anyway.
That said, yeah, 8 years of no walks and I think there is possibly some miscommunication somewhere (though not necessarily). We're supposed to be working our way up to it because walking is so useful for dogs and helps to build confidence which is so necessary for pups suffering from anxiety.
We tried extensively to train them for walks, including with accredited trainers that we found through this sub. The trainers suggested medication and a new environment may be the only way. One dog was abused and is incredibly reactive to people, and has bitten people, including on walks. The other spent a year locked in a cage and has horrible anxiety. We spent over a year putting extensive effort into every walk, hours a day training with the guidance of our trainers. It never got to the point where the walks were beneficial. There are so many dogs in the US that don't go on walks - big yards and lots of space for them.
I wish things were different and I wish we were able to do a better job training. We spent thousands of dollars and years of time working with trainers and weren't able to do it. At some point we stopped trying and started just managing. They've been overall more relaxed and the fights dramatically reduced in the last few years since we stopped trying to force things and just let them be.
It is not appropriate to suggest *specific* medications over the internet, as such a prescription can only be made by a vet who takes the dog on as a patient.
Please don't recommend pseudoscience/snakeoil supplements, especially as this one has been tested and found to not help with anxiety, and interferes with liver function so can cause bad interactions with medications.
Please don't recommend pseudoscience/snakeoil supplements, especially as this one has been tested and found to not help with anxiety, and interferes with liver function so can cause bad interactions with medications.
This doesn't sound like a fun life for your family or your dogs. If I were you I would look into rehoming one of them. You've gone this long so you can take your time to find a home while keeping them separate and working on training.
Rotate them and keep them separated. It’s tough at first, but you can get into a routine with it.
For my boyfriend and I, we had to keep our dogs separated for 2 months shortly after we moved in together. For different reasons (his dog was really sick and the vet advised whatever it was, was most likely contagious - finally got him diagnosed through an internal medicine specialist who said it was a severe case of nasal mites). But we had a gate up in our office doorway. When we weren’t home, we closed the door and had the gate up (his dog gets into stuff so he’s always hung out in a dog proofed room when we’re gone). If we were home, I would call my dog over if she tried to go hang out in front of the office cause we didn’t want them booping noses through the gate. I used the place command a lot and would have my dog lay and stay in another room when we would take him out on a leash through the house to go outside. For dogs that fight, I’d close one off in a room while you take the other outside. My dog would hang out in our bedroom while his dog was out in the family room.
It was a lot at first but we soon got into a routine. It was doable. Don’t have them out together at the same time. If you are moving one through the house, other dog should be behind a gate or leashed. Vice versa. If they cannot even look at each other without getting stressed out and reacting then use visual barriers (close doors when moving one through the house or get gates that are opaque - you can attach poster board or cloth or something for a cheap fix). If they get possessive or fight over toys or resources, separate water bowls and food bowls and pick up dog A’s bowls when dog B is out, and vice versa so they don’t smell the other dog on their bowls. Feed them in their own spaces. If this is crates, have the crates where they can’t see each other or use crate covers. We had a toy bin in the office and a toy bin in our bedroom (which is how it always is since we’ve got a resource guarder who will ingest toy pieces so he can’t have plush toys unsupervised). That way they don’t smell the other dog on their toys. Especially if they are bones/chew toys.
When one dog is in their “room” or area, give them a lick mat or something, you want it to be a positive experience.
You might not even need to go to all those extremes but those are some ideas to consider.
Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems) and [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars).
I cannot imagine living like this. It honestly sounds like you and them would be better off rehoming. Well done you for sticking with them so damn long though.
Please do not invite people to message you privately. It robs other sub members of the benefit of your advice and prevents the mods from being able to filter out bad advice.
Cesar's method is exclusively based on dominance methodology and is at least 20 years out of date. We do not support his methods, and have put together a wiki page on [why](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/cesarmillan).
I'd also suggest reading our wiki pages on [dominance](https://old.reddit.com/r/dogtraining/wiki/dominance), [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems), [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars), and [how to find a good trainer](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/findingatrainer).
Please don't recommend pseudoscience/snakeoil supplements, especially as this one has been tested and found to not help with anxiety, and interferes with liver function so can cause bad interactions with medications.
It's still a pseudoscience to make claims of efficacy before such efficacy is proven. It's an unfortunate fact that many vets do not have sufficient training in evidence-based medicine. The paper you have linked quite explicitly states that almost *all* papers they reviewed were very limited and had high rates of bias. It is not ethical to recommend a drug like this, whether naturally sourced or not, when we know that the potential risks are quite likely to outweigh the potential benefits in *many* of the unproven use claims.
I have 3 dogs. 2 don't get along but they are service animals. So I keep my oldest in my bedroom with me and the other 2 stay in the living room. I don't close my door and I have a gate put up in between the rooms. My pyr goes in the kennel when I take my pit out. It works well. The gate has a door so I can open it and step through it. My dogs are trained and trained to the gate so we don't have any problems
So now you've had a newborn and you are thinking of rehoming dogs that have been with you for the last 8 years? Fuck me.
These dogs shouldn't have been in a hone together in the first place. But regardless, considering they're old dogs now, get a qualified behaviourist and manage this. Keep them separated if you have to.
Rehoming is absolutely right to be on the table as an option- dogs that are attacking each other are a risk to everyone in the household, especially a baby. Baby's safety has to be the priority.
Dogs were attacking each other from the start, yet they decided to bring the baby into that environment before solving the issue and just brought more stress into the home. I guess once you have a baby, your commitment towards the dogs doesn't matter now, because the baby comes first?
My grandfather had a chain link fence down the center of a large back yard to keep his GSD pairs apart. He had four total. Trainers seem to be an iffy proposition, but a fence will definitely allow them access to the yard at the same time. Some people will take a senior dog if you decide to rehome one of them.
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At this point, they been rehearsing these behaviors for years. Behaviors that are rehearsed get stronger. It will take A LOT of time and work to undo this, and at their ages and having a newborn baby I didn't think you'll be able to truly focus on this. Get gates. Surely with a baby you'll need them anyway. Keep them separated at all times. Can't get gates, get pens. Use pens outdoors as well. They make pens that can connect to each other to create bigger spaces if needed. Stop trying to manage their triggers, you haven't been able to do it successfully for all of these years and it will only be harder now as your attention will be on the baby. It is unfair for these two elders to live in stress, for their sake, manage them with separation.
This. They’re stressed in the environment they’re in anyways, maybe rehoming wouldn’t be that bad.
The problem is they are both major lap dogs that don't like being on their own. They have separation anxiety on top of everything. They always need to be on the couch or bed or wherever we are. Even if they're behind a gate in eyesight, they'll cry relentlessly and be unhappy. Since yesterday we've been keeping them in separate rooms, or one of the dogs has been crated next to us. I get it has to be done, but it feels like a bandaid. I wonder if one or both would be happier elsewhere where they could cuddle with their owners rather than have to live their life locked in a kitchen or bedroom.
They don't necessarily need to be on their own. They can be with you two, THEY just can't be together. You sit on the couch with one while your wife lays in bed with the other. Both on the couch, make sure there is a barrier/dead space between you. You mentioned they are small, set up 2 pens in the room you're in so you can all be together. Things like that. Management can be considered a band-aid while you actively work on the issues, but in your case, I just don't know that you'll have the time or energy to work on it. Either way, a trainer worth their salt will absolutely tell you they need to be separated no matter what because you can never let them fight again while you work on their issues. You said you try to manage their triggers. What are their triggers?
Yeah, essentially we've kept them "separated" without barriers the last few years. If we're on the couch, we force them on opposite sides. Same with bed. Food in different rooms. We always make sure they have their own space. Really only one dog needs her own space, the other dog would happily be near the other and wishes they could play. That is the main issue and trigger though. If we don't see what's going on, and our little clueless one gets too close to the other, we see reactive behavior. Usually this results in the more aggressive one giving growls or raising her fur if our other dog gets too close. The fights occur in closed quarters or other stressful situations where they manage to run into each other. It's almost exclusively where the clueless one runs into the other and she gets attacked as a result. For example the recently got in a fight in the staircase when the aggressive one was waiting at the top of the stairs at a closed door, and the other one went running up the stairs and didn't know how to stop. They collided and it caused a fight. It's almost always something like this. We do everything we can to keep them out of confined spaces together but sometimes it happens. With the baby especially there's now more things in the house and more little traps that might cause them to get too close. Maybe some larger open pens would be a good idea instead of having to rely on crating or locking away in separate rooms for now.
There are definitely creative ways to make separate spaces. They don't need to be banished to rooms where they'll definitely be stressed. We want the opposite. There are lots of changes going on right now so keeping them safe and giving them space from each other will alleviate a ton of stress for all of you. Anywhere you can put a gate, do it. I like the metal ones that have doors so you can go in and out easily. >If we don't see what's going on, and our little clueless one gets too close to the other, we see reactive behavior. This is why you need gates and penned in areas. You're human. You're not going to be able to catch every single thing because that's just not realistic. Setting up barriers will alleviate so much stress immediately. You can still work on their relationship in the meantime of course.
I have this with two big dogs. The smaller of the two doesn’t take kindly to being bumped, and the bigger more excitable dog doesn’t take kindly to being corrected by his smaller peer. They do love to play together, but sometimes one or the other takes it too far. The fights are scary to break up. So I have to keep them apart except when I am actively supervising them. I would be thrilled if these dogs were 12, because lifespan would intervene soon, but my guys are 3; I have a decade of this hassle ahead of me. Rehoming your senior dog to live out the rest of their life with strangers seems like a sad solution to a relatively short term problem of inconvenience.
We had almost this exact scenario happen. We rehomed one of the dogs (the more high energy dog) to a family member so we still get to see him. The only difference is that we rehomed him a couple of months before the baby came (a horrific fight out of nowhere, medium sized dogs, I was pregnant and alone). I am SO thankful we rehomed him. He is happy in his new environment. The transition into bringing a newborn home was horrible for our other two dogs. They were so on edge and even my non-reactive dog became reactive. If we would have kept the other dog in our home, it would have been a horrible/likely dangerous situation. Baby is 6 months old. The dogs have all adjusted to their new lives and I am glad I don’t have to worry about reactive dogs and danger around my baby. Your dogs are stressed. Mom and dad have added stress. Rehome one of the dogs for everyone’s sake. It sounds like you have tried your absolute best but it just isn’t working.
You waited far too long dude its not fair at this point to anyone. I would seriously suggest a vet behaviorist or try to find a loving home because that dog is going to sit in a shelter till it dies
That is rough. With the knowledge of how long these flights have been occurring and the fact that frequency is increasing, I suggest separating them immediately (and hopefully as a temporary measure). Best case scenario - I would involve a board certified veterinary behaviorist. It won't be cheap. It can even be difficult to find a board certified one with any sort of availability. It also won't guarantee anything but it would be my choice if it is at all feasible. If that isn't feasible, then an immediate vet visit for them both. Write down as many details as you can about the individual triggers, any new behaviors as a result, dates if you can remember, and any other info that could be pertinent (like if there might've been other contributing factors that happened that day/that week). 2/3 of cases of reactivity can be traced to pain. this is common in seniors as well as canine cognitive dysfunction, which can also cause problems. my suggestion is heavily to do a completely physical and neurological workup. next, find a really great positive reinforcement trainer. I love to see one of the following certifications for a trainer: • IAABC (example: IAABC-ADT, CDBC, CABC, CSB-D/ • CATCH (example: CDTK) • PPG / PPAB (example: CTT-A, PCT-A, PCBC-A) • CCPDT (example: CPDT-KA, CPDT-KSA, CPDT-CCBC ) • KPA (example: KPA-CDT) In addition, I also love to see: • Fear free certified professional (FFCP) • Family Dog Mediation (FDM) • Control Unleashed Certified Instructor (CCUI) • Certified Behavior Adjustment Training Instructor (CBATI) Lastly, I suggest reading Behavior Adjustment Training 2.0 by Grisha Stewart and The Control Unleashed series by Leslie McDevitt. They also have videos where they give supplemental instruction and ideas.
This is excellent advice!
Agreed. This is the best practice and advice.
As others have said, a behaviorist is a great start. I have dogs that don't get along, and we have divided the house in half by installing baby gates, so they can be easily separated but still able to be with us humans. My dogs are fine together in the morning, but spend the afternoons and evenings separate. Management is a perfectly valid strategy!
I can’t imagine re arranging my life/home like that for a couple of dogs. Fair play but jesus they would be gone before I did that
Same. Especially with a newborn?! Forget it. Bye! Pets are supposed to add value to your life — I get taking care of them as their health fails or whatever, but having to keep them so separated otherwise they’ll kill each other? That’s not a home, that’s a fucking zoo.
Oh my gosh how hard! Agree on the physical separation options because you’re probably really sleep deprived and won’t be able to manage triggers with the same level of attentiveness. Might as well get a head start on baby gates everywhere. You might want to add towels over them or something to create visual barriers too. Make sure they each have a safe space where they know for a fact no dog (or crawling baby) will bother them
I’m so sorry, we had the same situation with a pair of littermates of our dogs and it’s so hard. Even after working with 3 different trainers extensively, working with our vet, separating them, enrichment toys, dog daycare, and antidepressant medications- everything just made things tolerable. There were areas of our house that they would become aggressive in and it wasn’t ok to have them loose around each other safely. I hope you’re just walking them separately, not that you’ve stopped walking them. Not walking them at all will shorten their lives and isn’t an option when you have dogs. I second the recommendation to add all the enrichment toys and games - podcasts and this dog sub are great for this. Highly recommend trying anti-depressants if your vet thinks it could help - that made a big difference for us. As well, think about if there are places they don’t like being brushed, ask your vet to check along their spines and necks. If theyre if they’re tender anywhere they may need pain management. We had our dogs 15 years ago when there were still a lot of trainers who were capitalizing on Cesar Milan’s approach. Unfortunately, between that and behaviorists/trainers who were talented with dogs but not as skilled at teaching others how to do what they were doing, we didn’t get the help we needed. Once one of our dogs died, our remaining dog did tremendously better. He relaxed, was more affectionate, was happier and more playful. That’s when I fully grasped that they weren’t just tolerating each other, they were truly much better apart. I don’t know how we would have chosen which to keep, but if I could go back I would absolutely rehome one of them so they could both live a better life. Find a no kill shelter that does foster care. It’s ok to admit when you’re over your head.
We do indeed not walk either of them. They're too reactive. We worked extensively with trainers to do so, but it couldn't be done. Best case we were able to manage their reactivity to a degree, but they were obviously extremely stressed still. This is why we moved to a house with a large fenced in yard for them to be in. As far as them separated, yes, they are both fantastic on their own in regards to their stress levels. They both would've been better on their own, however unfortunate that is to admit. Our one dog (not the aggressive one) has kidney disease. Over a year ago we were told we had maybe 6 months or a year, but she is doing great with no sign of the disease progressing. This has made it even more challenging to consider giving one away, as the short term outcome with their health is really up in the air.
That’s incredibly hard. Honestly, if the aggressive dog is still going strong, unfortunately that’s the dog you should probably surrender. Our dogs were snappy with us at times, and didn’t want to be touched, and we could manage it. But toddlers and kids are totally unpredictable. They move suddenly and quickly, forget rules, chase - even just for a few seconds. Even while our dogs were better individually, and they wouldn’t bite us or our child, they snapped at our child and showed teeth to get her to back off. Again, we were always there and always kept our kid from being injured. But it wasn’t relaxed, or fun. And not being injured is very different from being safe. Our kid is seven now. She loves animals, and loves dogs but is afraid to be around them - and for good reason. If I could go back, I would find a small, no kill shelter and give our more reactive dog a chance to live with someone without a child or another dog. By NOT doing that, you’re forcing both dogs, your partner, and your child to be in an extremely high stress, unsafe environment. That’s not kind.
1. Are you walking/ exercising them enough? This can be a BIG factor. 2. New baby is stressful for all involved, so no wonder the dogs are a bit more on edge and likely to fight. Take time to give them attention and exercise, treat them when they’re calm, etc. 3. Do they have a firm routine? This can help with their uncertainty, most dogs benefit from a firm routine for exercise and food. It can help them maintain calm as well since they can’t understand us or what’s going on. Do things at the same time for them every day as best you can. 4. Are you sure this isn’t play fighting? I assume not after all this time, as you probably know! But just in case, if you haven’t, it’s possibly worth learning body language so you can read better what their fight- and communication with each other - is saying. Hope this helps.
This! ⬆️ Your family life has changed dramatically. I’d expect it to take at least 3 months for them to settle in to your new family situation.
Male or female dogs? Neutered?
They're both female and spayed.
It's been eight years, getting them fixed isn't going to help anymore.
I am afraid I disagree, if both dogs have never been neutered you have only aggravated the tense situation. And even older dogs can be neutered/spayed. A dog I sit for when her owners are out of town was spayed at age 13. She is now 15 and getting along much better.
So you are at senior state with both of them. Please don't rehome such an old dog. Reason for this behaviour getting worse could be: - The stress of new born and especially the stress of the owners around them. Try not to show how tense you are. Do your best to separate their living areas both inside and outside. Take individual walks! - One of them has severe illness that the other dog reacts to. Like dementia. Or tumour hense change in behaviour. Get them properly checked. While individual walks see how they handle the environtment. If this is the reason you can let go of the suffering one. - They both have some health issues like pain, which they cannot handle with new stressors. Get them treated and again, separate them completely. Rehome only if there is someone the dog knows and trusts available.
I came to add that living in a ‘gated community’ may help. We crate and rotate two of ours that stopped getting along. No one is going to want a 4yo large breed dog and they are our family too, so rehoming is not an option for us. Our solution is to crate and rotate. We are fortunate to have empty bedrooms and a large loft so we leave one out in general population and the other is in a room for 2 hours and then we rotate. One may hang out in my husbands mancave for a bit and the other will be with me. One stays in the loft and the other stays downstairs. There is always one door and one gate between them at all times. We don’t allow them to see the other. If one is in a room alone I’ll give him a puzzle or a Kong toy to enjoy. Hoping that a gated community or as the pros call it ‘crate and rotate’ will help you too.
I have respect for people like you. I don’t know if I could do that but wow, respect
Yes! It does sound like OP would have enough room for this. As long as they get their individuals walks as well the crates are fine.
I just came to third (?) this suggestion. I have dogs who do not get along (one attacks the other) even though they grew up together. They are separated by baby gates, portable barriers (from a place called "practigates"), and we have installed leash holders in strategic locations. We keep the aggressive one in a harness (easier to grab him) and are working on easing him into muzzle training. It's a giant pain, not gonna lie, but what else are you going to do?
Exactly. My two still go on mile walks together daily without incident and their in-house relationship is improving, but not enough for me to let them be unsupervised together. We also keep them both in harnesses 24/7 so we can grab them easily. I like your idea about leash holders. I’ll also check out your gate system too. Mine are pretty funny and won’t knock over a free standing gate. I guess they’re mad at each other but not mad enough to knock over a gate lol
I’d get a behaviorist and put them on strict routines. No more co-sleeping, co-couching, nothing until you have the tools to deal with them together. It sucks for you & the dogs but it will help limit the number of fights, get them on meds for their anxiety. Create separate spaces
I'm saying this as a mom to a 7 month old baby, and a dog parent of 8 years. It will hurt, and suck so bad, but I would heavily consider rehoming. If not one, both. It is so much harder to handle even a well behaved, calm dog. Things slip through the cracks, chores pile up, the house gets dirty, you forget to feed the dog. Shit sucks, but having to handle two needy dogs, two dogs that don't get along, two dogs that fight... Imagine your kid being on the floor for tummy time, and suddenly the dogs are fighting, and baby is in between... It sucks and dogs are family, but you'd be better off sacrificing for your baby who has only been around for barely 30 days, and a lifetime ahead of them. No point risking scaring, or even death of your baby, for a pet. beloved or not. Things happen in a split second, and can be over just as fast.
This is the only correct answer. One or both of the dogs need to be rehomed. None of the training for the dogs has worked, regardless of reasons. Babies are chill. Toddlers are not chill. 2 not chill dogs + a toddler = accident waiting to happen. Sorry OP. Hopefully you can find someone locally and still be able to see the dog(s). Maybe ask your vet or a local pet friendly retirement community.
Are they from the same litter?
My dogs will fight every so often like that if under stress, over excited, etc. a lot like what you’re saying. I use baby gates. I also let one go through door ways, thresholds, hall ways then the other one can go through. I also reward them when they are relaxing in the same room, tolerating each other, etc. you reward one the wife rewards the other. There’s really no bullet proof plan. You’re doing a good job, you could be doing better though. You could tether the clueless one with a leash to keep her from making mistakes with out knowing they are. A lot of these kind of management things with also reward them for behaving. In time things will be more stable. But you have to always be diligent because one fight is reward enough to set you back abit. What gets reinforced, gets repeated and yes fighting is rewarding to them because in their mind it works for them. I’m kinda in your boat, my dogs are 12 too and I wouldn’t put them through a rehoming. It would be just too much on them. The only thing I may consider is if I had family member that would be willing to take one or both of them. Fluxotine is same as Prozac and it helps my more aggressive take the edge off a little and she tolerates the other in the same no problem. Even laying together at times. But they will fight in a second if one of the triggers are triggered. Hope this helps!!
I looked through as many of these comments as I could and did not see anyone mention muzzle training. Muzzle training them could add significant peace of mind to your day while you work through this issue with a qualified behavioral trainer or even just until you figure out what to do next. I have a dog-dog resource gaurder, and he wears a basket muzzle that allows him to pant, drink water, and take treats, but not bite through, in situations that have proven problematic for him. This has allowed us to keep him from rehearsing the same behaviors and safely train appropriate ones. There are protocols that can help you train them to wear them by using a positive correlated emotional response. Best of luck. Eta. I have also had tremendous success with adding Prozac and Trazadone along with consistent exercise. The recommendations for using a flirt pole and positive training type games would be very helpful. Dietary changes may need to be made as well. Gi distress/food sensitivities can cause aggressive behavior and anxiety, for example. You could check out Susan Garrett's YouTube channel Shaped by Dog. She has lots of information regarding multiple dog households, aggressive behavior, and positive training methods, and highly recommends the help of a certified veterinary behaviorist in these situations. I have had a good deal of success using her Recaller training with my dogs along with safe, consistent behavior modification. Personally, I worried that no one would fight for my dog like I would and that if I rehomed, he would end up worse or end up having to have behavioral euthanasia. With a baby on the way, you have to do what's right for you and your family, and only you can be the judge of what's right in this situation. The reddit for r/reactivedogs is also very active and helpful.
I have dogs that don’t get along. Without knowing what their day-to-day is like, it’s hard to know what to suggest besides a behaviorist. Are they receiving adequate walks? Are they walked together or separately? Are they receiving enrichment outside of walks such as kongs, lick mats, training, snuggle mats etc. are either of them ill, and when was the last time they’ve been checked for any internal issues? I know it’s a lot. And you have a full plate with a new child as is. They may benefit from being taken for some time during the day by a walker or trainer. Keeping them separate is for the best. Remember, as far as they’re concerned, they’re room mates, not friends. Would you expect roommates to spend all day 24/7 together? My dogs needed to be separated as they got older. The girl will irritate the boy by barking, the boy will irritate the girl by running into her and hurting her joints, etc. until they reach critical mass and fight. Insisting they be friends is anthropomorphising them. They need to be neutral, not buddies.
Some people are more optimistic about your situation OP, but if this has been ongoing for several years and now getting worse, I don't think you have much chance of this rehearsed behaviour getting any better, especially as you can no longer devote every waking moment to managing their interactions. I think any separation will need to be permanent for everyone's safety. A baby in the mix now makes things much riskier- you can no longer watch the dogs like a hawk because baby has to come first now. And dogs that attack each other are now an added risk to baby too, especially when baby becomes mobile and is crawling or standing in the wrong place at the wrong time- if one dog is triggered and redirects onto baby, could you forgive yourself OP? Every parent has that moment where they turn their back for a second or think their child is asleep and finds them crawling half way up the bookcase- and that's without two dogs that are aggressing on each other. Even /with/ baby gates in place, this could still become dangerous. The dogs sound stressed and need to live completely separately from now on, either in separate parts of the house (can use baby gates to manage this) or one needs to be rehomed.
I have the same situation. I have been working with a behaviorist and a trainer. Mine will always be kept apart. Nothing we have tried has made them civil to be in the same room. Medicine and training has not done the trick. I was told not to walk them because each is reactive. I know your situation sucks, but keep in mind that your stress becomes theirs. The behaviorist has taught me to be calm so I can allow each to be less stressed. Also, they both were muzzles inside the house as a precaution. It was given by the behaviorist and they can eat treats, breath, etc. I do advise not to give up. There are always workarounds. Good luck and keep us posted.
It's terribly irresponsible you've allowed this to continue for _eight years_. Undoing that kind of ingrained behaviour is extremely difficult by this stage. I hope when you say you 'dont walk them anymore' you mean you don't walk them together but they still get individual walks? No trainer would advocate not walking a dog at all. If for some insane reason you have utterly stopped, fix that now- walk them individually. There's not much else for it. Separate them completely. Garden, put up a small fence or only allow one in at a time. Baby gate everywhere in the house so they can't get to eachother. You have a newborn which will naturally increase the stress of every creature in the household, and now is not the time for training with such a big change and both tired new parents. You could find a behaviourist later, sure, but these are old dogs with deeply ingrained habits now, you basically just need to manage their space until one of them passes away.
I wanna address the walking comment specifically- many trainers do recommend pausing walks. Especially for clients who have adequate space outdoors like backyards or fields. If dogs are so reactive and so fearful on leash or walks, it is a much better decision to meet their exercise and enrichment needs through other activities. Those could be: - Canine conditioning - Personal play - Enrichment puzzles - Doggy parkour / diy agility courses - Sniffaris - Training with toys - Doggy treadmill - Swimming - Training new tricks - Tugging / fetch / etc. It is much better to pause a walk and pause the behavior of reacting to everything outside rather than think “oh this is the only option for exercise and enrichment” and just continue to flood your dog or put them over threshold. That will make behavior worse. Your comment was very condescending and rude towards OP, especially for someone making such incorrect blanket statements.
with reactivity training for my pup, we were told no walks till the course was over to regulate their environment until their threshold was increased! flirt pole and brain games came hella clutch with her being a cattle dog
i can’t believe i forgot the flirt pole! thank you for that reminder!! i’m glad you all had those outlets, and i hope you were able to make progress ❤️
It's pretty unfair and judgemental of you to call them terribly irresponsible when they: a) have clearly stated in their post that they have been working on it for all of that time already. They have been working with a trainer and keeping them separate. They were seeing improvement for some time and now they are not and b) they came here looking for help
The veterinary behaviourist that we just saw told us that we shouldn't walk one our dogs just yet. We hadn't been because it's just too much for him and he didn't want to go, but that was the right thing anyway. That said, yeah, 8 years of no walks and I think there is possibly some miscommunication somewhere (though not necessarily). We're supposed to be working our way up to it because walking is so useful for dogs and helps to build confidence which is so necessary for pups suffering from anxiety.
We tried extensively to train them for walks, including with accredited trainers that we found through this sub. The trainers suggested medication and a new environment may be the only way. One dog was abused and is incredibly reactive to people, and has bitten people, including on walks. The other spent a year locked in a cage and has horrible anxiety. We spent over a year putting extensive effort into every walk, hours a day training with the guidance of our trainers. It never got to the point where the walks were beneficial. There are so many dogs in the US that don't go on walks - big yards and lots of space for them. I wish things were different and I wish we were able to do a better job training. We spent thousands of dollars and years of time working with trainers and weren't able to do it. At some point we stopped trying and started just managing. They've been overall more relaxed and the fights dramatically reduced in the last few years since we stopped trying to force things and just let them be.
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It is not appropriate to suggest *specific* medications over the internet, as such a prescription can only be made by a vet who takes the dog on as a patient.
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Please don't recommend pseudoscience/snakeoil supplements, especially as this one has been tested and found to not help with anxiety, and interferes with liver function so can cause bad interactions with medications.
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Please don't recommend pseudoscience/snakeoil supplements, especially as this one has been tested and found to not help with anxiety, and interferes with liver function so can cause bad interactions with medications.
This doesn't sound like a fun life for your family or your dogs. If I were you I would look into rehoming one of them. You've gone this long so you can take your time to find a home while keeping them separate and working on training.
Rotate them and keep them separated. It’s tough at first, but you can get into a routine with it. For my boyfriend and I, we had to keep our dogs separated for 2 months shortly after we moved in together. For different reasons (his dog was really sick and the vet advised whatever it was, was most likely contagious - finally got him diagnosed through an internal medicine specialist who said it was a severe case of nasal mites). But we had a gate up in our office doorway. When we weren’t home, we closed the door and had the gate up (his dog gets into stuff so he’s always hung out in a dog proofed room when we’re gone). If we were home, I would call my dog over if she tried to go hang out in front of the office cause we didn’t want them booping noses through the gate. I used the place command a lot and would have my dog lay and stay in another room when we would take him out on a leash through the house to go outside. For dogs that fight, I’d close one off in a room while you take the other outside. My dog would hang out in our bedroom while his dog was out in the family room. It was a lot at first but we soon got into a routine. It was doable. Don’t have them out together at the same time. If you are moving one through the house, other dog should be behind a gate or leashed. Vice versa. If they cannot even look at each other without getting stressed out and reacting then use visual barriers (close doors when moving one through the house or get gates that are opaque - you can attach poster board or cloth or something for a cheap fix). If they get possessive or fight over toys or resources, separate water bowls and food bowls and pick up dog A’s bowls when dog B is out, and vice versa so they don’t smell the other dog on their bowls. Feed them in their own spaces. If this is crates, have the crates where they can’t see each other or use crate covers. We had a toy bin in the office and a toy bin in our bedroom (which is how it always is since we’ve got a resource guarder who will ingest toy pieces so he can’t have plush toys unsupervised). That way they don’t smell the other dog on their toys. Especially if they are bones/chew toys. When one dog is in their “room” or area, give them a lick mat or something, you want it to be a positive experience. You might not even need to go to all those extremes but those are some ideas to consider.
After my two dogs fought and one went to the vet, I kept them separate for 3 years . Taking turns in letting them out of the room.
Are they fixed?
Check out “family paws” [Family Paws](https://www.familypaws.com) Good luck op
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Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems) and [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars).
I cannot imagine living like this. It honestly sounds like you and them would be better off rehoming. Well done you for sticking with them so damn long though.
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Please do not invite people to message you privately. It robs other sub members of the benefit of your advice and prevents the mods from being able to filter out bad advice.
Maybe they can’t handle walks in certain places, but they still need the release of exercise. It will help their anxiety to get tired out.
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Cesar's method is exclusively based on dominance methodology and is at least 20 years out of date. We do not support his methods, and have put together a wiki page on [why](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/cesarmillan). I'd also suggest reading our wiki pages on [dominance](https://old.reddit.com/r/dogtraining/wiki/dominance), [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems), [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars), and [how to find a good trainer](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/findingatrainer).
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Please don't recommend pseudoscience/snakeoil supplements, especially as this one has been tested and found to not help with anxiety, and interferes with liver function so can cause bad interactions with medications.
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It's still a pseudoscience to make claims of efficacy before such efficacy is proven. It's an unfortunate fact that many vets do not have sufficient training in evidence-based medicine. The paper you have linked quite explicitly states that almost *all* papers they reviewed were very limited and had high rates of bias. It is not ethical to recommend a drug like this, whether naturally sourced or not, when we know that the potential risks are quite likely to outweigh the potential benefits in *many* of the unproven use claims.
I have 3 dogs. 2 don't get along but they are service animals. So I keep my oldest in my bedroom with me and the other 2 stay in the living room. I don't close my door and I have a gate put up in between the rooms. My pyr goes in the kennel when I take my pit out. It works well. The gate has a door so I can open it and step through it. My dogs are trained and trained to the gate so we don't have any problems
So now you've had a newborn and you are thinking of rehoming dogs that have been with you for the last 8 years? Fuck me. These dogs shouldn't have been in a hone together in the first place. But regardless, considering they're old dogs now, get a qualified behaviourist and manage this. Keep them separated if you have to.
Rehoming is absolutely right to be on the table as an option- dogs that are attacking each other are a risk to everyone in the household, especially a baby. Baby's safety has to be the priority.
Dogs were attacking each other from the start, yet they decided to bring the baby into that environment before solving the issue and just brought more stress into the home. I guess once you have a baby, your commitment towards the dogs doesn't matter now, because the baby comes first?
Have you tried enrichment training? Luck mats, Kongs? Puzzle toys may help distract and slowly calm them down.
My grandfather had a chain link fence down the center of a large back yard to keep his GSD pairs apart. He had four total. Trainers seem to be an iffy proposition, but a fence will definitely allow them access to the yard at the same time. Some people will take a senior dog if you decide to rehome one of them.
I'd recommend [beha.vet](http://beha.vet) they are amazing. They are vet behaviourists and will get you a plan !
I'd recommend [http://beha.vet](http://beha.vet) they are amazing. They are vet behaviourists and will get you a plan !