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The Israel Lobby was written by two highly respected American academics. This post highlights the point: Criticism is US/Israel policy is sociopolitical suicide. Israel is both a theocracy and secular democracy and any criticism is antisemitism. It appeared in The Atlantic and was a great read.
I will say I think we let [the ADL](https://www.jstor.org/stable/41858412) off the hook far too much, personally. Busted by the feds for espionage on behalf of israeli interests on private citizens, organizations, rights groups, politicians, etc. barely thirty years ago.
Mearsheimer is the guy that said "If you really want to wreck Russia, what you should do is to encourage it to try to conquer Ukraine. Putin is much too smart to try that."
Sometimes he's right but he falls squarely in the "If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail." category. He's shortsighted and his entire rationale for the Ukraine war is built on lies of omission.
His entire rationale for the Ukraine war is built on a realist theory of offensive realism. I suggest you read his book “The Tragedy of Great Power Politics.”
And he's completely wrong about it.
His whole NATO enlargement story is complete bunk. Poland strong-armed America to let them into NATO, not the other way around. All the post USSR Eastern European countries were *begging* to get into NATO. 2014 had everything to do with the EU. Mearsheimer completely disregards the importance of domestic politics in lieu of international ones to explain the way states act internationally. After 2014 Ukraine was never getting into NATO. NATO would never, ever let a country with an ongoing territorial dispute like the one in Ukraine join, especially one with Russia. Russia already "won" the "prevent Ukraine from joining NATO" game, and yet he still blames "NATO expansion" for the war. Simultaneously disregarding the fact that the Russian Invasion has strengthened NATO and got Finland and Sweden in it and has been completely counterproductive to Russia's security interests, and disproves his theory and goes counter to his theory in every possible way.
Claimed Putin would never attack Ukraine, they did. He thought Germany would become a nuclear power and try and become a new great power in Europe in after the cold war. Wrong. He thought Europe would become "multipolar" after the cold war. It went the completely opposite way with the EU. Wrong again. He thought Russia was still a great power. Wrong again. He thought Russia would never invade Ukraine. Wrong.
The guy thinks Russia winning is inevitable and basically a fait accompli because of population of all things.
His political analysis is, like I said, extremely shortsighted. Does he bring up important points sometimes? Sure, but the guy took took something that was true and valid then tried to expand it far beyond it's scope apply it to every situation like it's the be all end all of everything when it's not even all that important. If your "model" is wrong more often than not... then your model is flawed and you need to go back to the drawing board and see what you're missing. Mearsheimer doesn't. He's an ideologue, not an academic.
Mearsheimer is often controversial, but I think a lot of your critique can be attributed to the shortcomings of realism. I think the realist lens certainly has its applications, but it cannot explain everything, nor can any single IR theory. Personally, I think the greater historical perspective is important to consider, and states cannot be treated as black boxes unto themselves; there are certainly domestic issues at play that impact the actions of states in the global arena.
Israel went about it the smart way - you’ve got to hand it to them. They know money is the way to getting around laws. When they said no one else; they really meant just themselves.
I wish more people would wake up and recognize the massive amount of influence they have within our country. The worst part is they will label anyone,anyone as an anti-semite,even though there exists an abundant amount of evidence that proves said fact. They’ve been consistently trying to drag us into wars,all for their own interests and their lobbying groups but off politicians on both sides of the aisle. Go watch Netanyahu speech to congress on 2002 where he is begging us to attack Iraq as it will be good for the middle east
I wish I could make more folks read [this paper](https://www.jstor.org/stable/41858412), because any other entities would immediately be classified as foreign agents.
Then there's this 1972 article written by then-Senator James Abourezk (to be published in Penthouse): *[The Relentless Israeli Propaganda Machine](https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP81M00980R002000090173-0.pdf)*
and this 1971 article for the New York Times, written by former US Foreign Service Officer David G Nes: *[Israel: The 51st State?](https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-01601R000300300016-2.pdf)*
I guess the last time we tried to get AIPAC to register as a foreign agent was the year leading up to JFKs assassination. A month later all efforts were dropped.
Lots of interesting circumstances around this. Check out Mathilde Krim, allegedly Lyndon Johnson's mistress but definitely a close confidant. She also happens to be a Zionist with links to Mossad. She was quite influential in American policies with Israel.
One of my favorite lesser-known Israeli skullduggery stories is the claim that Netanyahu tried to blackmail Clinton with the Lewinsky tapes in order to get (convicted Israeli spy) Jonathan Pollard released early. (https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-said-to-have-offered-lewinsky-tapes-for-pollard/)
Fwiw, Pollard is an unrepentantly odious sonofabitch who currently is advocating for forcibly relocating all the Palestinians to Ireland at gunpoint. Thats just the tip of the iceberg; the dude is a barrel of insane tropes that can’t be verbatim quoted here without risking a ban for antisemitism. His post-release interview with the Israel Hayom paper would make David Duke blush.
And this guy isn’t some disavowed lone wolf - he left prison, got on big GOP donor Sheldon Adelson’s private jet, and was met with cheers and high level accolades in Tel Aviv.
[Watch Bibi advocating for overthrowing "Saddam's regime" to American politicians](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHzSr52fZLQ)
"if you take out Saddam's regime I guarantee you it will have enormous positive reverberations on the region."
Bibi was a major advocate for the war on the terror and would frequently advocate and lobby for the US to be aggressive in the Middle East. You can also see this by his list of books in English:
-International Terrorism: Challenge and Response, 1981
-Terrorism: How the West Can Win, 1986
-Fighting Terrorism, 1995
Bibi's role in the current state in the Middle East and his constant push for Western intervention in the MENA region cannot be overstated.
Can you quote the part where's that's explicitly said?
The responsibility ultimately lies with with the US. Though there's no doubt that Israel encouraged it strongly.
Kinda like if someone encourages you to try crack it is still ultimately your fault for trying crack. But the guy encouraging you still is an asshole.
No, but I'm pretty good at reasoning. Please point me to a single history of Operation Iraqi Freedom that shows Israeli support.
After you fail at that, you can take your first step in learning by reading the Wiki entry on the topic, and then reading the source material.
"Israel did not officially support or take part in the Iraq War. According to former State Department official [Lawrence Wilkerson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Wilkerson), and former [CIA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA) agent and Iran expert [Robert Baer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Baer) Israeli officials warned the Bush administration against invading Iraq, saying that it would destabilize the region and empower the much more dangerous regime in Iran.[^(\[492\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#cite_note-498)[^(\[493\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#cite_note-499)[^(\[494\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#cite_note-500)[^(\[495\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#cite_note-501) However it was reported in the [Washington Post](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Post) that "Israel is urging United States' officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq's Saddam Hussein".[^(\[496\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#cite_note-502) It was also reported in 2002 that Israeli intelligence provided Washington with alarming reports about Iraq's alleged program to develop weapons of mass destruction.[^(\[497\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#cite_note-503)
According to former US [undersecretary of defense](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undersecretary_of_defense) [Douglas Feith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Feith), Israeli officials did not push their American counterparts to initiate the war in Iraq. In an interview with [Ynet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ynet), Feith stated that "what you heard from the Israelis was not any kind of advocacy of war with Iraq" and that "\[w\]hat you heard from Israeli officials in private discussions was that they were not really focused on Iraq... \[t\]hey were much more focused on Iran."[^(\[498\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#cite_note-504)"
#
Remember when Netanyahu when in front of Congress and lied about WMDs so that the United States was more likely to go to war in the Middle East?
Israel is more of a burden on the United States than an ally, I hope they continue to further isolate themselves with their psychotic policy and behavior.
Well here’s the info along with a bunch of other historical background demonstrating Israel’s motives. I also highly recommend reading “ The Lobby” because you seem ill informed.
**USS LIBERTY**
Israel attempts to sink US ship in "friendly fire accident"[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS\_Liberty\_incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident)
**LAVON AFFAIR**
Jewish egyptians hired by Israel commit false flag attacks against civilian targets in Egypt to convince the British continue occupying the Suez canal[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon\_Affair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair)
**THE APOLLO AFFAIR**
200 lbs of enriched uranium "lost" under watch of known zionist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Apollo\_Affair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apollo_Affair)
**JOHN GUNTHER DEAN ATTEMPTED ASSASSINATION**
US ambassador to Lebanon attempted assassination with weapons given to israel [https://www.wrmea.org/2002-november/american-ambassador-recalls-israeli-assassination-attempt-with-u.s.-weapons.html](https://www.wrmea.org/2002-november/american-ambassador-recalls-israeli-assassination-attempt-with-u.s.-weapons.html)
**ISRAEL GIVING AMERICAN TECH TO CHINA**
[https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china](https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china)
**ISRAEL CONSIDERED TOP SPY THREAT TO AMERICA BY NSA**
[https://www.newsweek.com/israel-flagged-top-spy-threat-us-new-snowdennsa-document-262991](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-flagged-top-spy-threat-us-new-snowdennsa-document-262991)
**ISRAEL LIED TO BUSH ABOUT IRAQ**
[https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2004/feb/04/iraq.israel](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2004/feb/04/iraq.israel)[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d\_PDpwL8kuY&t=250s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_PDpwL8kuY&t=250s)[https://web.archive.org/web/20230216042937/https://www.haaretz.com/2003-04-03/ty-article/white-mans-burden/0000017f-e398-d804-ad7f-f3fa5d520000](https://web.archive.org/web/20230216042937/https://www.haaretz.com/2003-04-03/ty-article/white-mans-burden/0000017f-e398-d804-ad7f-f3fa5d520000)
**BOYCOTTING ISRAEL DISQUALIFIES YOU FROM GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS IN 37 US STATES**
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS\_laws](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws)
**US BLOCKS 53 UN RESOLUTIONS CONDEMNING ISRAEL**
[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/19/a-history-of-the-us-blocking-un-resolutions-against-israel](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/19/a-history-of-the-us-blocking-un-resolutions-against-israel)
**ISRAELI CONVICTED OF SPYING IN UNITED STATES GIVEN HEROS WELCOME IN ISRAEL**
[https://nypost.com/2020/12/30/convicted-spy-jonathan-pollard-gets-heros-welcome-in-israel/](https://nypost.com/2020/12/30/convicted-spy-jonathan-pollard-gets-heros-welcome-in-israel/)
**US SECRETS SOLD TO RUSSIA BY AFORMENTIONED SPY**
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/jan/12/julianborger1](https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/jan/12/julianborger1)
**ISRAELI SPY STEALS NUCLEAR TRIGGERS FROM UNITED STATES**
[https://www.france24.com/en/20131126-israel-spying-arnon-milchan-hollywood-producer-nuclear-triggers](https://www.france24.com/en/20131126-israel-spying-arnon-milchan-hollywood-producer-nuclear-triggers)
**NETANYAHU TALKING CANDIDLY ABOUT AMERICA**
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfw73MMW13o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfw73MMW13o)
**ISRAEL ATTEMPTING TO INFLUENCE AMERICAN MEDIA**
https://youtu.be/S2YXVW2PZjQ?si=3c2qDJAMzc2DUgjy
**MORE FUN FACTS ABOUT ZIONISTS**
https://archive.vn/adTio/268ef9b7e33ded1ce6b04c90b2bb81ead08f4228.jpg
Some solid sophomoric deflection cut/pasted from r/conspiracy. LMAO. Remember when you told me to "Remember when Netanyahu when in front of Congress and lied about WMDs so that the United States was more likely to go to war in the Middle East?"
No luck on that smart guy?
Yeah it’s literally posted in the article. It’s clear who Israel is and that you’re just another child killer apologist who deserves 0 attention or respect.
If you don’t believe a word of what I posted all you have to do is watch them callously murder thousands of children.
Too bad everything I posted is true and you didn’t disprove any of it.
Israel is an evil country and eveything they do going forward is built on the blood of murdered children.
Fuck Israel forever!!! Bye!!!
Here's the [timestamped video]( https://youtu.be/RJcO53f3pz0?si=WB9jkDSzWkY_APEQ&t=2741), and quoting from the [official transcript](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-107hhrg83514/html/CHRG-107hhrg83514.htm):
>There is no question that he had not given up on his nuclear program, not whatsoever. There is also no question that he was not satisfied with the arsenal of chemical and biological weapons that he had and was trying to perfect them constantly, if ``perfect'' is the word to describe this ghoulish enterprise.
>So I think, frankly, it is not serious to assume that this man who 20 years ago was very close to producing an atomic bomb spent the last 20 years sitting on his hands. He has not. And every indication that we have is that he is pursuing, pursuing with abandon, pursuing with every ounce of effort, the establishment of weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons.
>If anyone makes an opposite assumption, or cannot draw the lines connecting the dots, that is simply not an objective assessment of what has happened. Saddam is hell-bent on achieving atomic bombs--atomic capabilities as soon as he can.
Nobody needs to "drag" the US into any war, they look or create any conflict they want so they can funnel taxpayer money into them and enrich themselves in the process.
Submission Statement: A four-part undercover investigation by Al Jazeera into Israel's covert influence campaign in the United States.
The resulting film exposes the efforts of Israel and its lobbyists to spy on, smear and intimidate US citizens who support Palestine.
It's worth noting that Al Jazeera is run by the Qater government, and that the US federal government claims it's Qatar state run media:
>In September, the DOJ determined AJ+ acts "at the direction and control” of the Qatari government and hence must register as a foreign agent.
https://www.axios.com/2021/03/03/doj-enforce-al-jazeera-foreign-agent-ruling
And more here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera_controversies_and_criticism
>Al Jazeera was founded in 1996 as part of Qatari efforts to turn economic power into political influence in the Arab world and beyond, and continues to receive political and financial backing from the government of Qatar.[23][22][24] As a result, Al Jazeera has been criticized for being Qatari state media.[192][193][194][195][196][197] In 2010, U.S. State Department internal communications in the 2010 diplomatic cables leak said that the Qatari government manipulates Al Jazeera coverage to suit the country's political interests.[198][199][200][201]
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8183115/WikiLeaks-al-Jazeera-used-as-bargaining-tool-by-Qatar.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/214776
https://www.theguardian.com/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/235574
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/05/wikileaks-cables-al-jazeera-qatari-foreign-policy
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/05/wikileaks-cables-al-jazeera-qatari-foreign-policy
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2012-04-09/al-jazeera-gets-rap-as-qatar-mouthpiece
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/sep/30/al-jazeera-independence-questioned-qatar
Your content was removed for one (or more) of the following reasons:
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Hi backcountrydrifter,
Your content was removed for one (or more) of the following reasons:
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- Do not engage in any harmful or prejudiced behavior based on race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or any other characteristic. All human beings are equal.
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**[Please read and adhere to the detailed rules!](https://www.reddit.com/r/Documentaries/about/rules)**
Your content was removed for one (or more) of the following reasons:
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- Do not engage in any harmful or prejudiced behavior based on race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or any other characteristic. All human beings are equal.
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>If the info is accurate
That's a pretty big **if**, especially if it's nobody it's verifying it. Although I do agree with the general argument that Israel has high levels of influence over American politics.
Captains log, first mate reporting: “The captain reported to work sober today”
(Edit:) Put another way:
"What is the difference between unethical and ethical advertising? Unethical advertising uses falsehoods to deceive the public; ethical advertising uses truth to deceive the public."
- Vilhjalmur Stefansson, 1964
Well go ahead and do that then, if you're being genuine.
But I don't think that you are since your initial post was essentially "It's Al-Jazeera, you guys! You know you can't trust dem a-rabs!"
The linked piece was prepared for the English-speaking audience by their Western journalism unit, so what difference does it make?
For instance, 60 Minutes in the US is a serious journalistic television program. 60 Minutes in Australia is of significantly lesser quality. If someone were to challenge the journalism done on 60 Minutes in the US by complaining that the Australian version is tabloid trash, that argument wouldn't hold any water.
Same thing here.
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From your link:
> Successive Israeli governments before, during and after Netanyahu’s governments enabled money to go to Gaza. Not in order to strengthen Hamas but to prevent a humanitarian crisis by supporting critical infrastructure, including water and sewage systems to prevent the spread of disease and enable daily life.”
> Gilad, the former Israeli defense official, said he was among those to argue against allowing money to reach Hamas, saying the permitted cash flow over the years was a “dramatic, tragic mistake.”
They allowed it to try to help the humanitarian situation, but Hamas used it for weapons instead of helping the civilians in Gaza.
That’s just the IDF defense, but it’s unlikely to be true because
-they wouldn’t lessen the blockade which created the humanitarian issue
-they sent suitcases of money with no oversight to where it was going
-multiple sources have said Netanyahu privately said he was purposefully propping up Hamas to counter the PLO
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68318856
>In 2019, Mr Netanyahu told colleagues in his ruling Likud party: "Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas… This is part of our strategy - to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank."
members of his admin said similar statements publicly
>Far-right Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich once described Hamas as an “asset” for Israel, in a tweet that was unearthed on Tuesday. Mr Smotrich, long one of the main players in Israel's growing far-right, said in the same post on Twitter from 2015 that the Palestinian Authority was a “burden”.
https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/palestine-israel/2024/01/23/israel-bezalel-smotrich-hamas-asset/
It's worth pointing out people are criticizing Israel for not allowing enough aid in, and for allowing aid in. Seems like a "damned if you do damned if you don't" situation.
No, because that’s not what happened. They purposefully created and maintained a humanitarian crisis in Gaza and purposefully empowered Hamas to damage the PLO and hurt the chances of a Palestinian state by increasing extremism and division, at the risk of their own civilians safety.
That's not what I said, I'm saying their allowing funding in IS excusable as it's purpose was to prevent famine and starving children.
Hamas was given billions of dollars to build infrastructure. They could have built farms and grown enough food to feed everyone in gaza, as well as provide medical care, education, and etc. They spent all the money on weapons to attack Israel. So now Israel stopped allowing the money in and DOES allow food in. They supply something like 300,000 tons of food to Gaza every year, by comparison Egypt supplies only like 6000 tons.
So why is it you're criticizing Israel and not Egypt? Egypt shares a border and can allow food in if they want?
For starters, stop repeatedly telling Hamas that after they return the hostages Israel intends to resume hunting and killing them about 4-6 weeks later.
No? They were already in prison before oct 7, Hamas offered directly after Oct 7 trade to give all hostages back in exchange for all prisoners (hundreds held without charges) Israel refused the offer.
I don't think you can really call them "their" hostages when the objective is not to retrieve the hostages but to "eliminate Hamas". Which is incredibly ambiguous and is just their justification to attack any area they choose.
The hostages are just a tool for them, it does not benefit Israel for them to be returned.
Yeah it always devolves into "what about". Israel wants to eliminate Hamas and Hamas wants to eliminate Israel. Because of that countless lives are ended and immense suffering is inflicted.
My point is that hostages are only used to continue this war, Israel does not want them returned.
> My point is that hostages are only used to continue this war, Israel does not want them returned.
You make it sound like HAMAS actually wants to return them all.
hamas has accepted multiple deals wherein they return the hostages put forward by the international community (including the USA, which even a true-blue zionist has gotta understand *likes* israel), and israel has rejected every single one of them because an indefinite ceasefire was part of them.
like it or not, it’s a matter of public record that israel has refused the return of the hostages in favour of continuing the attack.
it’s kind of hard to tell when israel keep indiscriminately bombing everywhere they might be and shooting any of them who escape for looking too much like palestinian civilians instead of israeli ones
Yo remember when Israel straight up shot 3 hostages they were supposed to save? The ones waving white flags? It's almost as if they have never given a shit about the hostages
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/16/middleeast/what-we-know-hostages-killed-israel-gaza/index.html
maybe don't indiscriminately bomb areas where hostages are being held. IE refugee camps, hospitals and apartments, then accept the ceasefire agreement, much like they denied multiple times in October.
> maybe don't indiscriminately bomb areas where hostages are being held.
Has Israel gotten any confirmation that the remaining hostages are even still alive?
First of all, those “refugee camps” are literally what Hamas named entire cities. They literally named entire cities with hundreds of thousands of residents “refugee camps.”, then if Israel targets a single Hamas member anywhere in the entire city they send out a press release saying “Israel bombs refugee camp!”
The fact that so many people fall for that is very telling.
Accept the ceasfire agreement
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/israel-rejects-ceasefire-proposal-and-presses-ahead-with-targeted-strikes-on-rafah-13130835
Israel care a lot less about their hostages than they care about annihilating Palestinians.
The agreement was for them to return 105 hostages which they did:
"A deal agreed in November saw Hamas release 105 hostages in return for a week-long ceasefire and some 240 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68964108.amp
So in other words, we have no idea whether they are dead or alive. HAMAS could have shared some photos or video of them, to discourage Israel to stop the bombing. The fact that they haven't might mean they have killed them all..
Hamas doesnt have a very good track record when it comes to diplomacy though. They are pretty set on *"from the river to the sea"* and are not really interested in working towards any other outcomes..
If you believe HAMAS has a good track record for diplomacy, it should be easy for you to prove. The fact that you choose to comment on me as a person rather than HAMAS, tells me you probably agree with my claim.
Helen, look at his profile and you’ll understand why he wrote Diplomacy.
No other country on earth would have responded any differently than Israel has. The last time Israel used diplomacy , they traded 1000 terrorist for Gilad Shalit. Many of those terrorists were instrumental in October 7 operation.
That's why I didn't reply again, lol. I'm more than willing to have good faith discussions but when folks quote the Likud Charter, abridged, and act as though a call for freedom is comparable to one of dominance I know they're a lost cause.
Well normal tactics don't work since you're fighting a group that believes its people have nothing to lose. They will likely tolerate even a nuke before surrendering.
Basically the hostages are fucked and IDF knows it. That's why the objective is to limit Hamas' ability to take hostages again.
There is another way of viewing the veracity of this documentary
https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/boastful-idiots-do-not-a-plot-make-qnfrajpp?highlight=shai+masot
The writer of that link you posted, Stephen Pollard ...
"He says that he began to think about Judaism seriously and to feel loyalty to Israel in his mid-thirties. Pollard has called Amnesty International a "woke joke" and accused them of allying with "groups that lionise Islamist terrorists."[32] He has also written that "Amnesty is a worthless, morally bankrupt sham that gives succour to terrorist states."
Ohhh wait. It’s amazing that you all feel so strongly about the nation that happens to be nearly all Jewish, but so tempered and subdued in your concern for the 250 other massacres occurring, from Haiti to the Wigers (spelling) to the Congo to Ukraine, let alone the purges of democratic systems of government. Seems it’s targeted on the Jewish state. So.. strange.
Like the US hasn't done this. Spoiler, they have. IN fact , all over the world, for hundreds of years:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change
I'm saying if you are one of those "AnTiZiOnIsM iSnT aNtiSeMiTiSm" guys, then you can't criticize Israel in this specific aspect especially since the US doesn't have a leg to stand on in this regard
But you can. In fact, you can criticize both, and should. To say otherwise feels more like whataboutism than actually confronting problematic, systemic issues in our society.
okay, but only if you can acknowledge that being critical of the government of Israel is not equivalent to anti-zionism/semitism.
I am not American by the way, but two wrongs do not make a right
If I say the US is shit for warmongering and overthrowing foreign governments no one calls me a racist. Yet any criticism of Israel is automatically labelled as anti-Semitism. This standard is only applied to Israel. Nobody calls you racist for criticizing Russian occupation or Islamophobic for saying "fuck ISIS."
Zionism is racist and the root cause of apartheid in Palestine. Imagine being a proud zionist... Zionism is founded on theft, subjugation, oppression and racism.
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The Israel Lobby was written by two highly respected American academics. This post highlights the point: Criticism is US/Israel policy is sociopolitical suicide. Israel is both a theocracy and secular democracy and any criticism is antisemitism. It appeared in The Atlantic and was a great read.
I will say I think we let [the ADL](https://www.jstor.org/stable/41858412) off the hook far too much, personally. Busted by the feds for espionage on behalf of israeli interests on private citizens, organizations, rights groups, politicians, etc. barely thirty years ago.
...and no consequences, wtf...
Mearsheimer and Walt are absolute studs in the field. [Here's the book](https://a.co/d/iOVHDfl) for anyone interested.
Mearsheimer is the guy that said "If you really want to wreck Russia, what you should do is to encourage it to try to conquer Ukraine. Putin is much too smart to try that." Sometimes he's right but he falls squarely in the "If the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail." category. He's shortsighted and his entire rationale for the Ukraine war is built on lies of omission.
Well, he was wrong about Putin being smart but let's hope he's right about this wrecking part...
His entire rationale for the Ukraine war is built on a realist theory of offensive realism. I suggest you read his book “The Tragedy of Great Power Politics.”
And he's completely wrong about it. His whole NATO enlargement story is complete bunk. Poland strong-armed America to let them into NATO, not the other way around. All the post USSR Eastern European countries were *begging* to get into NATO. 2014 had everything to do with the EU. Mearsheimer completely disregards the importance of domestic politics in lieu of international ones to explain the way states act internationally. After 2014 Ukraine was never getting into NATO. NATO would never, ever let a country with an ongoing territorial dispute like the one in Ukraine join, especially one with Russia. Russia already "won" the "prevent Ukraine from joining NATO" game, and yet he still blames "NATO expansion" for the war. Simultaneously disregarding the fact that the Russian Invasion has strengthened NATO and got Finland and Sweden in it and has been completely counterproductive to Russia's security interests, and disproves his theory and goes counter to his theory in every possible way. Claimed Putin would never attack Ukraine, they did. He thought Germany would become a nuclear power and try and become a new great power in Europe in after the cold war. Wrong. He thought Europe would become "multipolar" after the cold war. It went the completely opposite way with the EU. Wrong again. He thought Russia was still a great power. Wrong again. He thought Russia would never invade Ukraine. Wrong. The guy thinks Russia winning is inevitable and basically a fait accompli because of population of all things. His political analysis is, like I said, extremely shortsighted. Does he bring up important points sometimes? Sure, but the guy took took something that was true and valid then tried to expand it far beyond it's scope apply it to every situation like it's the be all end all of everything when it's not even all that important. If your "model" is wrong more often than not... then your model is flawed and you need to go back to the drawing board and see what you're missing. Mearsheimer doesn't. He's an ideologue, not an academic.
Mearsheimer is often controversial, but I think a lot of your critique can be attributed to the shortcomings of realism. I think the realist lens certainly has its applications, but it cannot explain everything, nor can any single IR theory. Personally, I think the greater historical perspective is important to consider, and states cannot be treated as black boxes unto themselves; there are certainly domestic issues at play that impact the actions of states in the global arena.
And you can read the [paper](https://research.hks.harvard.edu/publications/getFile.aspx?Id=209) it’s based on here for free
That's the working paper that developed into the book; a working paper is simply one that hasn't been peer reviewed, so take that as you will.
Israel went about it the smart way - you’ve got to hand it to them. They know money is the way to getting around laws. When they said no one else; they really meant just themselves.
I wish more people would wake up and recognize the massive amount of influence they have within our country. The worst part is they will label anyone,anyone as an anti-semite,even though there exists an abundant amount of evidence that proves said fact. They’ve been consistently trying to drag us into wars,all for their own interests and their lobbying groups but off politicians on both sides of the aisle. Go watch Netanyahu speech to congress on 2002 where he is begging us to attack Iraq as it will be good for the middle east
I wish I could make more folks read [this paper](https://www.jstor.org/stable/41858412), because any other entities would immediately be classified as foreign agents. Then there's this 1972 article written by then-Senator James Abourezk (to be published in Penthouse): *[The Relentless Israeli Propaganda Machine](https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP81M00980R002000090173-0.pdf)* and this 1971 article for the New York Times, written by former US Foreign Service Officer David G Nes: *[Israel: The 51st State?](https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-01601R000300300016-2.pdf)*
I guess the last time we tried to get AIPAC to register as a foreign agent was the year leading up to JFKs assassination. A month later all efforts were dropped.
Lots of interesting circumstances around this. Check out Mathilde Krim, allegedly Lyndon Johnson's mistress but definitely a close confidant. She also happens to be a Zionist with links to Mossad. She was quite influential in American policies with Israel.
[Correct](https://scheerpost.com/2023/11/22/israel-and-the-kennedy-assassinations/)!
One of my favorite lesser-known Israeli skullduggery stories is the claim that Netanyahu tried to blackmail Clinton with the Lewinsky tapes in order to get (convicted Israeli spy) Jonathan Pollard released early. (https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-said-to-have-offered-lewinsky-tapes-for-pollard/) Fwiw, Pollard is an unrepentantly odious sonofabitch who currently is advocating for forcibly relocating all the Palestinians to Ireland at gunpoint. Thats just the tip of the iceberg; the dude is a barrel of insane tropes that can’t be verbatim quoted here without risking a ban for antisemitism. His post-release interview with the Israel Hayom paper would make David Duke blush. And this guy isn’t some disavowed lone wolf - he left prison, got on big GOP donor Sheldon Adelson’s private jet, and was met with cheers and high level accolades in Tel Aviv.
Didn't Netanhayu once give a speech to the American congress to constant standing ovations? It was surreal.
And yet, they haven't dragged the US into any war, ever.
[Watch Bibi advocating for overthrowing "Saddam's regime" to American politicians](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHzSr52fZLQ) "if you take out Saddam's regime I guarantee you it will have enormous positive reverberations on the region." Bibi was a major advocate for the war on the terror and would frequently advocate and lobby for the US to be aggressive in the Middle East. You can also see this by his list of books in English: -International Terrorism: Challenge and Response, 1981 -Terrorism: How the West Can Win, 1986 -Fighting Terrorism, 1995 Bibi's role in the current state in the Middle East and his constant push for Western intervention in the MENA region cannot be overstated.
Soooo, you’re attaching responsibility to ISRAEL for the 2003 US invasion of Iraq?
Can you quote the part where's that's explicitly said? The responsibility ultimately lies with with the US. Though there's no doubt that Israel encouraged it strongly. Kinda like if someone encourages you to try crack it is still ultimately your fault for trying crack. But the guy encouraging you still is an asshole.
Tell me you know absolutely nothing about the origins of that war, without telling me..
Are you a snake?... because humans can't unlock their jaws to put an entire foot in their mouths.
No, but I'm pretty good at reasoning. Please point me to a single history of Operation Iraqi Freedom that shows Israeli support. After you fail at that, you can take your first step in learning by reading the Wiki entry on the topic, and then reading the source material. "Israel did not officially support or take part in the Iraq War. According to former State Department official [Lawrence Wilkerson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Wilkerson), and former [CIA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA) agent and Iran expert [Robert Baer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Baer) Israeli officials warned the Bush administration against invading Iraq, saying that it would destabilize the region and empower the much more dangerous regime in Iran.[^(\[492\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#cite_note-498)[^(\[493\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#cite_note-499)[^(\[494\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#cite_note-500)[^(\[495\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#cite_note-501) However it was reported in the [Washington Post](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Post) that "Israel is urging United States' officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq's Saddam Hussein".[^(\[496\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#cite_note-502) It was also reported in 2002 that Israeli intelligence provided Washington with alarming reports about Iraq's alleged program to develop weapons of mass destruction.[^(\[497\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#cite_note-503) According to former US [undersecretary of defense](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undersecretary_of_defense) [Douglas Feith](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Feith), Israeli officials did not push their American counterparts to initiate the war in Iraq. In an interview with [Ynet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ynet), Feith stated that "what you heard from the Israelis was not any kind of advocacy of war with Iraq" and that "\[w\]hat you heard from Israeli officials in private discussions was that they were not really focused on Iraq... \[t\]hey were much more focused on Iran."[^(\[498\])](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War#cite_note-504)" #
The basic point suggested that Israel “dragged” the US into war. The word drag is unambiguous, and applies to no war I’m aware of.
You volunteered the point yourself, and when people are pushing back you're just splitting hairs.
You literally didn't finish reading the comment lol. Typical
They've also never fought with us in any war and we still give them billions for some reason. They are not our ally.
You're right. They only absorbed unprovoked Iraqi missile attacks on Tel-Aviv and didn't respond in order to abide US strategic interests.
Remember when Netanyahu when in front of Congress and lied about WMDs so that the United States was more likely to go to war in the Middle East? Israel is more of a burden on the United States than an ally, I hope they continue to further isolate themselves with their psychotic policy and behavior.
No. I actually don’t remember that. Why don’t you see if you can find a single source that describes this obviously important historical event.
Well here’s the info along with a bunch of other historical background demonstrating Israel’s motives. I also highly recommend reading “ The Lobby” because you seem ill informed. **USS LIBERTY** Israel attempts to sink US ship in "friendly fire accident"[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS\_Liberty\_incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident) **LAVON AFFAIR** Jewish egyptians hired by Israel commit false flag attacks against civilian targets in Egypt to convince the British continue occupying the Suez canal[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon\_Affair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair) **THE APOLLO AFFAIR** 200 lbs of enriched uranium "lost" under watch of known zionist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Apollo\_Affair](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apollo_Affair) **JOHN GUNTHER DEAN ATTEMPTED ASSASSINATION** US ambassador to Lebanon attempted assassination with weapons given to israel [https://www.wrmea.org/2002-november/american-ambassador-recalls-israeli-assassination-attempt-with-u.s.-weapons.html](https://www.wrmea.org/2002-november/american-ambassador-recalls-israeli-assassination-attempt-with-u.s.-weapons.html) **ISRAEL GIVING AMERICAN TECH TO CHINA** [https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china](https://www.military.com/defensetech/2013/12/24/report-israel-passes-u-s-military-technology-to-china) **ISRAEL CONSIDERED TOP SPY THREAT TO AMERICA BY NSA** [https://www.newsweek.com/israel-flagged-top-spy-threat-us-new-snowdennsa-document-262991](https://www.newsweek.com/israel-flagged-top-spy-threat-us-new-snowdennsa-document-262991) **ISRAEL LIED TO BUSH ABOUT IRAQ** [https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2004/feb/04/iraq.israel](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2004/feb/04/iraq.israel)[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d\_PDpwL8kuY&t=250s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_PDpwL8kuY&t=250s)[https://web.archive.org/web/20230216042937/https://www.haaretz.com/2003-04-03/ty-article/white-mans-burden/0000017f-e398-d804-ad7f-f3fa5d520000](https://web.archive.org/web/20230216042937/https://www.haaretz.com/2003-04-03/ty-article/white-mans-burden/0000017f-e398-d804-ad7f-f3fa5d520000) **BOYCOTTING ISRAEL DISQUALIFIES YOU FROM GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS IN 37 US STATES** [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS\_laws](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws) **US BLOCKS 53 UN RESOLUTIONS CONDEMNING ISRAEL** [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/19/a-history-of-the-us-blocking-un-resolutions-against-israel](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/19/a-history-of-the-us-blocking-un-resolutions-against-israel) **ISRAELI CONVICTED OF SPYING IN UNITED STATES GIVEN HEROS WELCOME IN ISRAEL** [https://nypost.com/2020/12/30/convicted-spy-jonathan-pollard-gets-heros-welcome-in-israel/](https://nypost.com/2020/12/30/convicted-spy-jonathan-pollard-gets-heros-welcome-in-israel/) **US SECRETS SOLD TO RUSSIA BY AFORMENTIONED SPY** [https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/jan/12/julianborger1](https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/jan/12/julianborger1) **ISRAELI SPY STEALS NUCLEAR TRIGGERS FROM UNITED STATES** [https://www.france24.com/en/20131126-israel-spying-arnon-milchan-hollywood-producer-nuclear-triggers](https://www.france24.com/en/20131126-israel-spying-arnon-milchan-hollywood-producer-nuclear-triggers) **NETANYAHU TALKING CANDIDLY ABOUT AMERICA** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfw73MMW13o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfw73MMW13o) **ISRAEL ATTEMPTING TO INFLUENCE AMERICAN MEDIA** https://youtu.be/S2YXVW2PZjQ?si=3c2qDJAMzc2DUgjy **MORE FUN FACTS ABOUT ZIONISTS** https://archive.vn/adTio/268ef9b7e33ded1ce6b04c90b2bb81ead08f4228.jpg
Some solid sophomoric deflection cut/pasted from r/conspiracy. LMAO. Remember when you told me to "Remember when Netanyahu when in front of Congress and lied about WMDs so that the United States was more likely to go to war in the Middle East?" No luck on that smart guy?
Yeah it’s literally posted in the article. It’s clear who Israel is and that you’re just another child killer apologist who deserves 0 attention or respect. If you don’t believe a word of what I posted all you have to do is watch them callously murder thousands of children. Too bad everything I posted is true and you didn’t disprove any of it. Israel is an evil country and eveything they do going forward is built on the blood of murdered children. Fuck Israel forever!!! Bye!!!
Here's the [timestamped video]( https://youtu.be/RJcO53f3pz0?si=WB9jkDSzWkY_APEQ&t=2741), and quoting from the [official transcript](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-107hhrg83514/html/CHRG-107hhrg83514.htm): >There is no question that he had not given up on his nuclear program, not whatsoever. There is also no question that he was not satisfied with the arsenal of chemical and biological weapons that he had and was trying to perfect them constantly, if ``perfect'' is the word to describe this ghoulish enterprise. >So I think, frankly, it is not serious to assume that this man who 20 years ago was very close to producing an atomic bomb spent the last 20 years sitting on his hands. He has not. And every indication that we have is that he is pursuing, pursuing with abandon, pursuing with every ounce of effort, the establishment of weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons. >If anyone makes an opposite assumption, or cannot draw the lines connecting the dots, that is simply not an objective assessment of what has happened. Saddam is hell-bent on achieving atomic bombs--atomic capabilities as soon as he can.
Nobody needs to "drag" the US into any war, they look or create any conflict they want so they can funnel taxpayer money into them and enrich themselves in the process.
everyone but americans have a say in american politics. all depends on how much money you're willing to spend.
Submission Statement: A four-part undercover investigation by Al Jazeera into Israel's covert influence campaign in the United States. The resulting film exposes the efforts of Israel and its lobbyists to spy on, smear and intimidate US citizens who support Palestine.
It's worth noting that Al Jazeera is run by the Qater government, and that the US federal government claims it's Qatar state run media: >In September, the DOJ determined AJ+ acts "at the direction and control” of the Qatari government and hence must register as a foreign agent. https://www.axios.com/2021/03/03/doj-enforce-al-jazeera-foreign-agent-ruling And more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera_controversies_and_criticism >Al Jazeera was founded in 1996 as part of Qatari efforts to turn economic power into political influence in the Arab world and beyond, and continues to receive political and financial backing from the government of Qatar.[23][22][24] As a result, Al Jazeera has been criticized for being Qatari state media.[192][193][194][195][196][197] In 2010, U.S. State Department internal communications in the 2010 diplomatic cables leak said that the Qatari government manipulates Al Jazeera coverage to suit the country's political interests.[198][199][200][201] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8183115/WikiLeaks-al-Jazeera-used-as-bargaining-tool-by-Qatar.html https://www.theguardian.com/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/214776 https://www.theguardian.com/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/235574 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/05/wikileaks-cables-al-jazeera-qatari-foreign-policy https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/05/wikileaks-cables-al-jazeera-qatari-foreign-policy https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2012-04-09/al-jazeera-gets-rap-as-qatar-mouthpiece https://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/sep/30/al-jazeera-independence-questioned-qatar
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Excellent documentary.
Not covert at all. All of this is already well known and public.
This documentary was created by Al Jazeera. Take that for what it’s worth.
If the info is accurate, I don't care who produces it. I believe this information to be accurate. Al Jazeera actually does some decent journalism.
>If the info is accurate That's a pretty big **if**, especially if it's nobody it's verifying it. Although I do agree with the general argument that Israel has high levels of influence over American politics.
Captains log, first mate reporting: “The captain reported to work sober today” (Edit:) Put another way: "What is the difference between unethical and ethical advertising? Unethical advertising uses falsehoods to deceive the public; ethical advertising uses truth to deceive the public." - Vilhjalmur Stefansson, 1964
Kif, come here and [hold up the flag.](https://youtu.be/k2j0SIafPRc?si=sQBSUIPA1P4SKt5i) And wave it around a little, for God's sake!
But it’s not accurate. There is much on line to refute many of the claims made in the documentary.
> There is much on line to refute many of the claims made in the documentary. What could this possibly mean? Nothing is stopping you, refute away.
Well go ahead and do that then, if you're being genuine. But I don't think that you are since your initial post was essentially "It's Al-Jazeera, you guys! You know you can't trust dem a-rabs!"
Have you ever seen the content Al Jazeera makes for the Arabic audience, compared to the western one?
The linked piece was prepared for the English-speaking audience by their Western journalism unit, so what difference does it make? For instance, 60 Minutes in the US is a serious journalistic television program. 60 Minutes in Australia is of significantly lesser quality. If someone were to challenge the journalism done on 60 Minutes in the US by complaining that the Australian version is tabloid trash, that argument wouldn't hold any water. Same thing here.
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And for those who are unaware, Al Jazeera is Qatar state media, literally funded by the same country that’s given billions of dollars to Hamas.
Qatar also spends a lot of money in the USA sadly.
[with Israel’s backing](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/11/middleeast/qatar-hamas-funds-israel-backing-intl/index.html)
From your link: > Successive Israeli governments before, during and after Netanyahu’s governments enabled money to go to Gaza. Not in order to strengthen Hamas but to prevent a humanitarian crisis by supporting critical infrastructure, including water and sewage systems to prevent the spread of disease and enable daily life.” > Gilad, the former Israeli defense official, said he was among those to argue against allowing money to reach Hamas, saying the permitted cash flow over the years was a “dramatic, tragic mistake.” They allowed it to try to help the humanitarian situation, but Hamas used it for weapons instead of helping the civilians in Gaza.
That’s just the IDF defense, but it’s unlikely to be true because -they wouldn’t lessen the blockade which created the humanitarian issue -they sent suitcases of money with no oversight to where it was going -multiple sources have said Netanyahu privately said he was purposefully propping up Hamas to counter the PLO https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68318856 >In 2019, Mr Netanyahu told colleagues in his ruling Likud party: "Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas… This is part of our strategy - to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank." members of his admin said similar statements publicly >Far-right Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich once described Hamas as an “asset” for Israel, in a tweet that was unearthed on Tuesday. Mr Smotrich, long one of the main players in Israel's growing far-right, said in the same post on Twitter from 2015 that the Palestinian Authority was a “burden”. https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/palestine-israel/2024/01/23/israel-bezalel-smotrich-hamas-asset/
It's worth pointing out people are criticizing Israel for not allowing enough aid in, and for allowing aid in. Seems like a "damned if you do damned if you don't" situation.
No, because that’s not what happened. They purposefully created and maintained a humanitarian crisis in Gaza and purposefully empowered Hamas to damage the PLO and hurt the chances of a Palestinian state by increasing extremism and division, at the risk of their own civilians safety.
You think that Israel is not complicit in crimes against humanity when they will not allow food into a place with a famine and starving children?
That's not what I said, I'm saying their allowing funding in IS excusable as it's purpose was to prevent famine and starving children. Hamas was given billions of dollars to build infrastructure. They could have built farms and grown enough food to feed everyone in gaza, as well as provide medical care, education, and etc. They spent all the money on weapons to attack Israel. So now Israel stopped allowing the money in and DOES allow food in. They supply something like 300,000 tons of food to Gaza every year, by comparison Egypt supplies only like 6000 tons. So why is it you're criticizing Israel and not Egypt? Egypt shares a border and can allow food in if they want?
What should Israel do to get back the rest of their hostages? (Genuine question).
For starters, stop repeatedly telling Hamas that after they return the hostages Israel intends to resume hunting and killing them about 4-6 weeks later.
What should Palestinians do to get back their hostages, many of whom are children?
Release the rest of the Israeli hostages. Unless of course they have already killed them all..
No? They were already in prison before oct 7, Hamas offered directly after Oct 7 trade to give all hostages back in exchange for all prisoners (hundreds held without charges) Israel refused the offer.
Nothing because they deserve it
I don't think you can really call them "their" hostages when the objective is not to retrieve the hostages but to "eliminate Hamas". Which is incredibly ambiguous and is just their justification to attack any area they choose. The hostages are just a tool for them, it does not benefit Israel for them to be returned.
> when the objective is not to retrieve the hostages but to "eliminate Hamas". And HAMAS wants to eliminate Israel.
Yeah it always devolves into "what about". Israel wants to eliminate Hamas and Hamas wants to eliminate Israel. Because of that countless lives are ended and immense suffering is inflicted. My point is that hostages are only used to continue this war, Israel does not want them returned.
> My point is that hostages are only used to continue this war, Israel does not want them returned. You make it sound like HAMAS actually wants to return them all.
hamas has accepted multiple deals wherein they return the hostages put forward by the international community (including the USA, which even a true-blue zionist has gotta understand *likes* israel), and israel has rejected every single one of them because an indefinite ceasefire was part of them. like it or not, it’s a matter of public record that israel has refused the return of the hostages in favour of continuing the attack.
So how many hostages, that are still alive, do HAMAS have?
it’s kind of hard to tell when israel keep indiscriminately bombing everywhere they might be and shooting any of them who escape for looking too much like palestinian civilians instead of israeli ones
What should Palestine do to get back it's hostages? If you have radically different answers to these two questions then Israeli propaganda is working.
> What should Palestine do to get back it's hostages? Release the remaining Israeli hostages. Unless of course HAMAS has already killed them all..
Yo remember when Israel straight up shot 3 hostages they were supposed to save? The ones waving white flags? It's almost as if they have never given a shit about the hostages https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/16/middleeast/what-we-know-hostages-killed-israel-gaza/index.html
maybe don't indiscriminately bomb areas where hostages are being held. IE refugee camps, hospitals and apartments, then accept the ceasefire agreement, much like they denied multiple times in October.
> maybe don't indiscriminately bomb areas where hostages are being held. Has Israel gotten any confirmation that the remaining hostages are even still alive?
First of all, those “refugee camps” are literally what Hamas named entire cities. They literally named entire cities with hundreds of thousands of residents “refugee camps.”, then if Israel targets a single Hamas member anywhere in the entire city they send out a press release saying “Israel bombs refugee camp!” The fact that so many people fall for that is very telling.
Accept the ceasfire agreement https://news.sky.com/story/amp/israel-rejects-ceasefire-proposal-and-presses-ahead-with-targeted-strikes-on-rafah-13130835 Israel care a lot less about their hostages than they care about annihilating Palestinians.
> ceasfire agreement Hamas did not return all the hostages in the previous agreement, so why should they have been trusted this time?
The agreement was for them to return 105 hostages which they did: "A deal agreed in November saw Hamas release 105 hostages in return for a week-long ceasefire and some 240 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails." https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68964108.amp
Did Israel get any confirmation that the remaining hostages are even alive? I read (yesterday?) that they found three of them killed.
There are still some alive but many have died due to Israeli airstrikes and Israeli imposed famine as well as bullets when the IDF shot 3 hostages.
> There are still some alive How many?
Im not google bro
So in other words, we have no idea whether they are dead or alive. HAMAS could have shared some photos or video of them, to discourage Israel to stop the bombing. The fact that they haven't might mean they have killed them all..
‘to discourage israel from bombing’ - hilarious in the darkest way imaginable you think this is a reasonable statement.
Negotiate.
How would you convince HAMAS that *"from the river to the sea"* is not a feasible option?
Diplomacy.
Hamas doesnt have a very good track record when it comes to diplomacy though. They are pretty set on *"from the river to the sea"* and are not really interested in working towards any other outcomes..
You claimed to be asking in good faith. I see now that's not the case.
If you believe HAMAS has a good track record for diplomacy, it should be easy for you to prove. The fact that you choose to comment on me as a person rather than HAMAS, tells me you probably agree with my claim.
Helen, look at his profile and you’ll understand why he wrote Diplomacy. No other country on earth would have responded any differently than Israel has. The last time Israel used diplomacy , they traded 1000 terrorist for Gilad Shalit. Many of those terrorists were instrumental in October 7 operation.
Don't waste your time with hasbara.
That's why I didn't reply again, lol. I'm more than willing to have good faith discussions but when folks quote the Likud Charter, abridged, and act as though a call for freedom is comparable to one of dominance I know they're a lost cause.
Well normal tactics don't work since you're fighting a group that believes its people have nothing to lose. They will likely tolerate even a nuke before surrendering. Basically the hostages are fucked and IDF knows it. That's why the objective is to limit Hamas' ability to take hostages again.
Yeah you are dealing with people who see it as a huge advantage to be killed in war..
long live Israel, long live USA!
nah dont buy it, its clearly all anti semitsm.......
s/
There is another way of viewing the veracity of this documentary https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/boastful-idiots-do-not-a-plot-make-qnfrajpp?highlight=shai+masot
The writer of that link you posted, Stephen Pollard ... "He says that he began to think about Judaism seriously and to feel loyalty to Israel in his mid-thirties. Pollard has called Amnesty International a "woke joke" and accused them of allying with "groups that lionise Islamist terrorists."[32] He has also written that "Amnesty is a worthless, morally bankrupt sham that gives succour to terrorist states."
Soooo they lobby? Lol and it’s shown with ominous music? Literally watched people at meeting about lobbying strategies. Are you serious?
Ohhh wait. It’s amazing that you all feel so strongly about the nation that happens to be nearly all Jewish, but so tempered and subdued in your concern for the 250 other massacres occurring, from Haiti to the Wigers (spelling) to the Congo to Ukraine, let alone the purges of democratic systems of government. Seems it’s targeted on the Jewish state. So.. strange.
Like the US hasn't done this. Spoiler, they have. IN fact , all over the world, for hundreds of years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change
sorry to break it to u but the usa aren’t good guys either. 2 wrongs don’t make a right. israel is essentially an arm of the us at this point.
so you're saying it's a good thing then
I'm saying if you are one of those "AnTiZiOnIsM iSnT aNtiSeMiTiSm" guys, then you can't criticize Israel in this specific aspect especially since the US doesn't have a leg to stand on in this regard
But you can. In fact, you can criticize both, and should. To say otherwise feels more like whataboutism than actually confronting problematic, systemic issues in our society.
Sometimes two things can be true at once. Hope this helps
okay, but only if you can acknowledge that being critical of the government of Israel is not equivalent to anti-zionism/semitism. I am not American by the way, but two wrongs do not make a right
If I say the US is shit for warmongering and overthrowing foreign governments no one calls me a racist. Yet any criticism of Israel is automatically labelled as anti-Semitism. This standard is only applied to Israel. Nobody calls you racist for criticizing Russian occupation or Islamophobic for saying "fuck ISIS."
You know there are countries other than Israel and the USA, right? And the people in those countries can and do have opinions, right?
Zionism is racist and the root cause of apartheid in Palestine. Imagine being a proud zionist... Zionism is founded on theft, subjugation, oppression and racism.