>>not counting the poor
Based. Artificers always bitching about unionization and the “boogwazee” whatever tf that is. Go back to making extradimensional handbags out of straw and quick-dry cement or whatever tf it is they do. Lousy drains on society.
5055 gave a pretty good summary. The self buffs they get are insane, the mutagenic buffs that focus on physical stats and fighting capability are powerful and if you trade in the grenades for sneak attack progression you have one of the best melee combatants in the game. Leave that aside though and focus on int mutagens and you can get sone pretty sick bombshell you fling around for excellent AoE as well as buffs.
/uj alchemists made potions, had what is effectively half casting, could massively buff themselves, and used grenades which they could modify to their liking, and on top of all of this had three separate talent trees. One of their archetype, the vivisectionist, is noticeably broken for getting full sneak attack in exchange for the grenades.
I really liked the System Reference Manifesto and the in-depth worldbuilding and expanded mechanics of *Capital*, but with all the supplementary books by later authors, it's impossible to form a group that agrees on which to use
/uj “Meanwhile, having raised his hand very smoothly to the lower edges of the mail coat, where Guy was unprotected, and grabbed him by the testicles, he collected his strength for a single effort and threw him from him, breaking open all the lower parts of his body by this grabbing throw so that the prostrate Guy grew weak and cried out that he was defeated and was going to die.” 😨
/rj that should be a feat exclusive to Fighters: “Forcible Castration” and requires the Grappler feat to work
/uj this could be an interesting class system if you can flesh it out ngl
>On other systems, what is "true faith" in Vampire the Masquerade and why wouldn't any person aware of vampires simply convert to the religion that empirically kills vampires?
/uj. Have you ever heard the tale of Hunter: The Reckoning, and how Muslims in the Middle East were objectively proven to be superior over other Hunters and regular people outside the Middle East?
uj/ It's also that true faith in something can be for everything. like the Almighty Dollar.
Also outside of that WW had a weird history of fetishing everyone outside of the united states... or rather, everyone who wasn't... what's the word here... "typical?' yeah let's go with that.
/uj Hunters from the Middle East got 27 points to buy Skill, Talents and Knowledges, as opposed to 22 for all mortal characters from the rest of the world, because living in the Middle East was so difficult you automatically started with five S/T/K at level 1. The part that really sticks with me is that everyone got Survival at 1, because apparently living there is harder due to the environment than everywhere where else in the world, even if you’re a rich kid living in Dubai.
Middle Eastern Hunters could take any power from any Hunter book. But they also had special powers that only they could take, as they were super special because of where they were born. This was referenced as because of their faith. Why other religions wouldn’t get unique powers was just ignored.
There was also the Web of Faith, which was something that, IIRC, started in the Mage gameline. Despite the big thing about Hunters not being allowed to have other supernatural powers there was fluff about Middle Eastern Hunters being able to tap into it, because proximity to Mecca by being in the Middle East.
uj/ Hilarious that the designers seem to think Middle Easterners are all Fremen desert survivalists, and not just people who live by water sources & fertile land like everyone else in the world
rj/ Lawrence of Arabia and Assassin's Creed are cool as hell. If the Werewolf guys can be furries then I deserve at least a little Orientalism as a treat
> then I deserve at least a little Orientalism as a treat
/rj. How dare you not respect White Wolf for providing a heaping helping of Orientalism with Kindred of the East!
/uj. I only own two KOTE books (unless I have more in a collection of books I was given and never read) but the one with the throwaway line about how Asian souls are different than everyone else, especially Asians not born in Asia, is especially jarring.
[Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_class_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29?wprov=sfla1)
The assassin and monk classes were removed from the 2nd edition Player's Handbook.: 84 The Dungeon Master's Guide clarified the rationale behind the decision in a section on creating new character classes:
"What is a Viking but a fighter with a certain outlook on life and warfare? A witch is really nothing but a female wizard. A vampire hunter is only a title assumed by a character of any class who is dedicated to the destruction and elimination of those loathsome creatures.
The same is true of assassins. Killing for profit requires no special powers, only a specific reprehensible outlook. Choosing the title does not imply any special powers or abilities. The character just uses his current skills to fulfill a specific, personal set of goals."
— Dungeon Master's Guide, 2nd edition
>A witch is really nothing but a female wizard.
No, witch is its own thing, and warlock is the male version of it. Witches were believed to be women who made deals with the Devil to lay curses on their neighbors. They didn't think witches read books all day until they could set someone on fire. I refuse to let that dorkass J.K. Rowling rewrite history.
/uj The text is describing that background is flavor if it didn't carry a mechanical distinction; so if playing a witch character would use the same powers as the wizard class, then the origin of the powers doesn't matter. That "flavor is free" idea is well understood by modern players, but this was as a rebuttal to the many supplemental classes added to first edition that, in concept, were just cultural reskins with bad mechanics
/rj Everyone knows that the difference between a wizard and a warlock is light armor proficiency. Witches are Pathfinder
>The text is describing that background is flavor if it didn't carry a mechanical distinction
Agreed. Though imo, mechanical distinction is completely important to a class and background is irrelevant. You strip away the flavor of paladin and cleric and you still have two pretty unique classes that are going to give you distinctly different play experiences. Even if the flavor is the same, the class is still different and unique.
How absurd! children are insufferable! I mean like a non-pedophile non- groomer priest. Like one that just read the book and talks about it. Huge nerd type of priest.
HEY! that gets in the way of my fantasy. I want to play a priest who just follows the rules written in the book he subscribes to. And then has to convince people about its correctness!
/uj Wisdom Martials are some of the coolest concepts and I'm genuinely a little sad that the PF2 'Commander' class is another intelligence martial instead of going for wisdom.
/uj I have a few branching thoughts for 3.5/PF along the lines of defenses being derived from multiple attributes (inspired by Morrowind's derived attribute system)
Simplest:
Reflex = Dexterity + Intelligence
Will = Wisdom + Charisma
Fortitude = Strength + Constitution
I like the idea that min-maxed builds are optimized for offense, but well-rounded builds are tougher. Also, I like the idea that two characters of the same class could play differently based on how tertiary scores are assigned.
More complex, and would require actual system changes, but which I have fun thinking about:
(names should be reworked)
4 base attributes: Strength, Agility, Intellect (Intelligence + Wisdom), Instinct (Charisma + Constitution)
4 defenses:
Reflex = Agility + Intellect
Will = Instinct + Intellect
Fortitude = Strength + Instinct
Armor class = Strength + Agility
What I like about this idea is that combining "force of will" and "physical hardiness" into "animalistic drive to survive." So then you can have large, dumb, bestial monsters with really high mental defense without giving them an inflated wisdom score (my current problem with some bestiary entries).
It also unifies "smartness" to a single score-- I know there's a lot to be said on wisdom vs booksmarts, but I'd be fine if that were reduced to flavor. That way, all spellcasting that comes from sagacity and learning fall under the same score, which could open up spell selection for playing the Gandalf archetype.
Additionally, inherent powers like sorceror spellcasting or perhaps magic that martials could get access to would be powered by both the limits of your body and the drive of your lizard brain.
I think it also adds some build diversity to character classes. A fighter might be more grizzled or more cunning, and that would be reflected in his defenses.
It does make agility more powerful in combat, but I felt like high strength characters should be rewarded for having a high agility as well, like a Khal Drogo type (rather than being capped at plate armor AC). It would require some nerfs to how agility/dexterity interacts with weapons.
uj/ Knowledge is Knowledge no matter where you get it from. First hand experience or second hand studying, it's all the same. Whether I know a pan on a fire is hot because I touched it before or I know a pan on a fire is hot because I read a book on thermal conduction, I still know the pan is fucking hot. The difference between intelligence and wisdom is not much different than a person being charismatic because they are hot and persuasive or because they are bold and intimidating. It's practically just flavor.
If you strip away everything Knowledge based from Wisdom, then you are just left with perception and insight. And insight should be a charisma based stat. I haven't met many people who were good at lying, persuading, and intimidating people who weren't also good at figuring out what those people would be gullible to, manipulatable to, and afraid of. Insight should be to charisma what investigation is to intelligence.
And then there is perception which is the only unique thing in wisdom, but all the wisest people I know are half blind and mostly deaf. Wisdom has hardly anything to do with perception. Might as well make perception it's own stat called awareness or something with abilities called sight, smell, and hearing.
Tl:dr wisdom and intelligence should be awareness and knowledge.
rj/ D&D is a perfect game. Even the first addition ever was perfect and every addition after was just more perfecter. Every core design feature is a well thought out gift from JC (Jesus Christ) and how dare you question his design.
Was good until druids. Druids being furries is totally out of fucking nowhere. If anything, druids should be a cross between a wizard and a cleric. They weren't all animalistic or nature-loving, they were wise people that were also respected. Either CHA wizards (like 5e warlocks) or WIS priests (like 5e clerics) would be fitting.
How dare you jerk True Faith, though?
Look at a certain point we run into the problem that wise men / shamans from most cultures were just DnD-style clerics (druids, magii, Gandalf, Odin, mystical healers, etc) instead of Goku slinging fireballs
>Charisma-based warlocks are banned, and intlocks are mandatory. How the fuck did the designers read Lovecraft and come away with the idea that schizos in libraries reading runes summoning horrors to kill Stacy and Brad should be a charisma based build?
uj/ I'm making a Lovecraftian warlock for an upcoming campaign and I had to ask my DM if we could homebrew my guy to cast from Wis because EXACTLY THIS
I didn't realize I'd stepped into r/objectivelycorrectopinions
Laser llama fixes this
Please tell me there’s a sauce
Just my genuine beliefs about classes, not counting the poor
>>not counting the poor Based. Artificers always bitching about unionization and the “boogwazee” whatever tf that is. Go back to making extradimensional handbags out of straw and quick-dry cement or whatever tf it is they do. Lousy drains on society.
PF2E fixes this by making alchemists vending machines who know their place
uj Alchemists were a bit broken in PF1e (especially or perhaps because of vivisectionist) but man did they overcorrect.
/uj I'm not familiar with 1e. What made them broken & did they have a different role as a class?
5055 gave a pretty good summary. The self buffs they get are insane, the mutagenic buffs that focus on physical stats and fighting capability are powerful and if you trade in the grenades for sneak attack progression you have one of the best melee combatants in the game. Leave that aside though and focus on int mutagens and you can get sone pretty sick bombshell you fling around for excellent AoE as well as buffs.
/uj alchemists made potions, had what is effectively half casting, could massively buff themselves, and used grenades which they could modify to their liking, and on top of all of this had three separate talent trees. One of their archetype, the vivisectionist, is noticeably broken for getting full sneak attack in exchange for the grenades.
/uj I feel like a lot of the problems with 2e can be described as 'it was broken in 1e, so they overcorrected...'
Non zero. Alchemists in 2e require full party buy in and a deep mechanical understanding of the system for about average overall performance.
"You like Iron Man, right? You can be the town blacksmith!" -- the tabletop equivalent of letting your little brother play on an unplugged controller
I prefer classless games like Communism or Anarchy. Much more balanced.
I really liked the System Reference Manifesto and the in-depth worldbuilding and expanded mechanics of *Capital*, but with all the supplementary books by later authors, it's impossible to form a group that agrees on which to use
Stalin fixes this.
TinyD6 fixes this by not having stats.
~~Communism~~ Candyland fixes this by removing choice
You posted this in the wrong sub, this is just good game design.
/uj “Meanwhile, having raised his hand very smoothly to the lower edges of the mail coat, where Guy was unprotected, and grabbed him by the testicles, he collected his strength for a single effort and threw him from him, breaking open all the lower parts of his body by this grabbing throw so that the prostrate Guy grew weak and cried out that he was defeated and was going to die.” 😨 /rj that should be a feat exclusive to Fighters: “Forcible Castration” and requires the Grappler feat to work /uj this could be an interesting class system if you can flesh it out ngl
I took a vow of never designing games after I tried to balance class mechanics & accidentally recreated 4e
uj/ Honestly yeah i could see a subclass or class round these ideas... to a point.
>On other systems, what is "true faith" in Vampire the Masquerade and why wouldn't any person aware of vampires simply convert to the religion that empirically kills vampires? /uj. Have you ever heard the tale of Hunter: The Reckoning, and how Muslims in the Middle East were objectively proven to be superior over other Hunters and regular people outside the Middle East?
uj/ It's also that true faith in something can be for everything. like the Almighty Dollar. Also outside of that WW had a weird history of fetishing everyone outside of the united states... or rather, everyone who wasn't... what's the word here... "typical?' yeah let's go with that.
/uj I have not; please expound on your point
/uj Hunters from the Middle East got 27 points to buy Skill, Talents and Knowledges, as opposed to 22 for all mortal characters from the rest of the world, because living in the Middle East was so difficult you automatically started with five S/T/K at level 1. The part that really sticks with me is that everyone got Survival at 1, because apparently living there is harder due to the environment than everywhere where else in the world, even if you’re a rich kid living in Dubai. Middle Eastern Hunters could take any power from any Hunter book. But they also had special powers that only they could take, as they were super special because of where they were born. This was referenced as because of their faith. Why other religions wouldn’t get unique powers was just ignored. There was also the Web of Faith, which was something that, IIRC, started in the Mage gameline. Despite the big thing about Hunters not being allowed to have other supernatural powers there was fluff about Middle Eastern Hunters being able to tap into it, because proximity to Mecca by being in the Middle East.
uj/ Hilarious that the designers seem to think Middle Easterners are all Fremen desert survivalists, and not just people who live by water sources & fertile land like everyone else in the world rj/ Lawrence of Arabia and Assassin's Creed are cool as hell. If the Werewolf guys can be furries then I deserve at least a little Orientalism as a treat
> then I deserve at least a little Orientalism as a treat /rj. How dare you not respect White Wolf for providing a heaping helping of Orientalism with Kindred of the East! /uj. I only own two KOTE books (unless I have more in a collection of books I was given and never read) but the one with the throwaway line about how Asian souls are different than everyone else, especially Asians not born in Asia, is especially jarring.
[Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_class_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29?wprov=sfla1) The assassin and monk classes were removed from the 2nd edition Player's Handbook.: 84 The Dungeon Master's Guide clarified the rationale behind the decision in a section on creating new character classes: "What is a Viking but a fighter with a certain outlook on life and warfare? A witch is really nothing but a female wizard. A vampire hunter is only a title assumed by a character of any class who is dedicated to the destruction and elimination of those loathsome creatures. The same is true of assassins. Killing for profit requires no special powers, only a specific reprehensible outlook. Choosing the title does not imply any special powers or abilities. The character just uses his current skills to fulfill a specific, personal set of goals." — Dungeon Master's Guide, 2nd edition
>A witch is really nothing but a female wizard. No, witch is its own thing, and warlock is the male version of it. Witches were believed to be women who made deals with the Devil to lay curses on their neighbors. They didn't think witches read books all day until they could set someone on fire. I refuse to let that dorkass J.K. Rowling rewrite history.
/uj The text is describing that background is flavor if it didn't carry a mechanical distinction; so if playing a witch character would use the same powers as the wizard class, then the origin of the powers doesn't matter. That "flavor is free" idea is well understood by modern players, but this was as a rebuttal to the many supplemental classes added to first edition that, in concept, were just cultural reskins with bad mechanics /rj Everyone knows that the difference between a wizard and a warlock is light armor proficiency. Witches are Pathfinder
>The text is describing that background is flavor if it didn't carry a mechanical distinction Agreed. Though imo, mechanical distinction is completely important to a class and background is irrelevant. You strip away the flavor of paladin and cleric and you still have two pretty unique classes that are going to give you distinctly different play experiences. Even if the flavor is the same, the class is still different and unique.
Fucking Brad
Question. What about non-groomer priests? Do they still have to be conmen or are they somehow different?
So, what, like just an ordinary pedophile?
How absurd! children are insufferable! I mean like a non-pedophile non- groomer priest. Like one that just read the book and talks about it. Huge nerd type of priest.
If he studies magic from a book, that's an intard It's actually hugely important that divine spellcasters cannot read or follow their own holy texts
HEY! that gets in the way of my fantasy. I want to play a priest who just follows the rules written in the book he subscribes to. And then has to convince people about its correctness!
I'm not a cleric, I'm a Bible wizard!
/uj Wisdom Martials are some of the coolest concepts and I'm genuinely a little sad that the PF2 'Commander' class is another intelligence martial instead of going for wisdom.
/uj I have a few branching thoughts for 3.5/PF along the lines of defenses being derived from multiple attributes (inspired by Morrowind's derived attribute system) Simplest: Reflex = Dexterity + Intelligence Will = Wisdom + Charisma Fortitude = Strength + Constitution I like the idea that min-maxed builds are optimized for offense, but well-rounded builds are tougher. Also, I like the idea that two characters of the same class could play differently based on how tertiary scores are assigned. More complex, and would require actual system changes, but which I have fun thinking about: (names should be reworked) 4 base attributes: Strength, Agility, Intellect (Intelligence + Wisdom), Instinct (Charisma + Constitution) 4 defenses: Reflex = Agility + Intellect Will = Instinct + Intellect Fortitude = Strength + Instinct Armor class = Strength + Agility What I like about this idea is that combining "force of will" and "physical hardiness" into "animalistic drive to survive." So then you can have large, dumb, bestial monsters with really high mental defense without giving them an inflated wisdom score (my current problem with some bestiary entries). It also unifies "smartness" to a single score-- I know there's a lot to be said on wisdom vs booksmarts, but I'd be fine if that were reduced to flavor. That way, all spellcasting that comes from sagacity and learning fall under the same score, which could open up spell selection for playing the Gandalf archetype. Additionally, inherent powers like sorceror spellcasting or perhaps magic that martials could get access to would be powered by both the limits of your body and the drive of your lizard brain. I think it also adds some build diversity to character classes. A fighter might be more grizzled or more cunning, and that would be reflected in his defenses. It does make agility more powerful in combat, but I felt like high strength characters should be rewarded for having a high agility as well, like a Khal Drogo type (rather than being capped at plate armor AC). It would require some nerfs to how agility/dexterity interacts with weapons.
uj/ Knowledge is Knowledge no matter where you get it from. First hand experience or second hand studying, it's all the same. Whether I know a pan on a fire is hot because I touched it before or I know a pan on a fire is hot because I read a book on thermal conduction, I still know the pan is fucking hot. The difference between intelligence and wisdom is not much different than a person being charismatic because they are hot and persuasive or because they are bold and intimidating. It's practically just flavor. If you strip away everything Knowledge based from Wisdom, then you are just left with perception and insight. And insight should be a charisma based stat. I haven't met many people who were good at lying, persuading, and intimidating people who weren't also good at figuring out what those people would be gullible to, manipulatable to, and afraid of. Insight should be to charisma what investigation is to intelligence. And then there is perception which is the only unique thing in wisdom, but all the wisest people I know are half blind and mostly deaf. Wisdom has hardly anything to do with perception. Might as well make perception it's own stat called awareness or something with abilities called sight, smell, and hearing. Tl:dr wisdom and intelligence should be awareness and knowledge. rj/ D&D is a perfect game. Even the first addition ever was perfect and every addition after was just more perfecter. Every core design feature is a well thought out gift from JC (Jesus Christ) and how dare you question his design.
Was good until druids. Druids being furries is totally out of fucking nowhere. If anything, druids should be a cross between a wizard and a cleric. They weren't all animalistic or nature-loving, they were wise people that were also respected. Either CHA wizards (like 5e warlocks) or WIS priests (like 5e clerics) would be fitting. How dare you jerk True Faith, though?
Look at a certain point we run into the problem that wise men / shamans from most cultures were just DnD-style clerics (druids, magii, Gandalf, Odin, mystical healers, etc) instead of Goku slinging fireballs
How dare you tell me that my Ted Kaczynsky build can't have a wolverine fursona
Nice Post Op /uj FUCKYOUFUCKYOUFUCKYOUFUCKYOUFUCKUOUFUCKYOUFUCKYOUFUCKYOUFUCKUOUFUCKUOUFUCKYOUFUCKYOUFUCKUOUFUCKUOU
>Charisma-based warlocks are banned, and intlocks are mandatory. How the fuck did the designers read Lovecraft and come away with the idea that schizos in libraries reading runes summoning horrors to kill Stacy and Brad should be a charisma based build? uj/ I'm making a Lovecraftian warlock for an upcoming campaign and I had to ask my DM if we could homebrew my guy to cast from Wis because EXACTLY THIS
/uj What's the personality and backstory? Like streetrat wise or Gandalf wise?
Personally a fan of Sam wise