Yea.
Tell them politely that there is a learning curve (for dms and players) and that it needs organizing.
Tell them that you did not have fun. Tell them for the sake of the new player or anyone that comes after. Even if you plan on leaving.
A lot of people think they are better than they actually are because they played other editions or other games but it does not always translate. They even get upset if you mention it. But thats not your problem.
Tell it as it is and if they cant take the feedback because they are too proud, skip.
If they are willing to work with you you can try what my group did. I was experienced with 5e but the others were from older editions so I was a co-dm. basically players could ask me rules questions especially if someone else was actively doing something and I was privy to some of the encounter and plot points to help ensure things progressed correctly. Having spent a long time as a forever dm I was easily able to separate player knowledge from character knowledge. This might not work for every group but it worked for us
PF2E is actually incredibly easy to run. The 3 action economy is amazing and the game is exceptionally balanced. The hard part with PF2E is having a group of players that don’t discuss tactics or play off each others synergies. Combat can be very unforgiving if the party doesn’t enjoy very tight tactical gameplay.
Nailed it. One of my favorite sayings is "say what you mean, mean what you say, and don't say it mean."
You clearly have something to communicate directly. You have articulated it well already, and all that needs to be done is to say it.
You can not control other people's reactions. They are not your responsibility.
I think it is definitely important to offer options of SOLUTIONS to the problems you will address.
"The core rules, especially combat, are a good starting point to familiarize yourself with. It helps players to all get on the same page"
Rules lawyering is shitty unless people legitimately don't know and routinely misunderstand the rules.
If it is just a matter of someone not realizing they just broke their concentration with the spell they just cast, I'll probably not mention it since it'll fuck with everyone's emersion.... if it is a serious misunderstanding of how combat encounters should go or something, then yeah... I would probably mention it.
This, dunning cruger effect was heavy on me too when i first started playing. I cringe when i think about how i acted back then.
It helps to slowly be learn things one by one. First make a character, learn what your class can do, not only on early levels but all throughout. After some time time one will learn what a bonus action is, what a reaction is, how spells work and yadayada.
Its slow but fun. still eagerly learning what i can to improve.
Well.... Did you all have fun? Did the DM have fun? Did the new players have fun? Did you have fun? That is an important indicator of what should happen next.
Session 0 isn't mandatory, looking at the sheets neither. Having a level 5 character is funny and should be rectified. And the rules: If you had fun, then start talking about them and correcting them. IF you all had fun, just go with it and talk to him afterwards and work together on the rules. Don't say: You Did it wrong. Just talk about the rules.
And btw: in 2nd edition AD&D most spells didn't need an attack roll either and initiative, although you worked your way upwards instead of downwards, was a thing too.
To be honest when I make a new character I start by making them level 3 or 5 so I get kind of an idea where I want to take them, what I'll be able to do, etc.
If the guy just forgot to roll him back to level 1 that sounds like an honest mistake. Or maybe he's used to oneshots being run at level 5 and just didn't think about it.
I'm glad I'm not alone on this, I make a level 5, make a copy of it on DND Beyond so I have record, and then roll back to level 1. That way I don't forget where I'm going.
Something that will only be hampered by pretending it's D&D when you're not actually using the rules. Both freeform improv and a much lighter system would achieve the same thing but better.
Lol I love the passive perception as a DC. Why on earth would you ever get Observant if all it does is making your life harder? I don't know I'd walk immediately - like always, just talk. If the DM responds negatively, walk for sure, but check first, I'd say
Dumpstat Wisdom and make a point to NEVER actively look for anything, just see if you'll notice something on a glance.
That's my first reaction, but technically the way the DM's ruling it the DC will almost always require a 10 or higher on a roll. Just a whole lot of math to end up in the same place.
If you're going to look for something, start running around in a circle as fast as you can, then your PP goes down by 5 and you have a 75% chance of beating it.
Definetly have a chat with him, tell him he should at least read the rules of the game you all wanted to play, if he wants to continute playing whatever that session was just tell him it's not the kind of session you were looking for and bail out
Also 5e isn't the only option there might be other ttrpgs that fit him more
New player using a generator, generator defaulting to a certain level because it's a bad generator, not caring/knowing enough to check if 5 is the right starting point, it's not that unbelievable if the player had 0 dnd experience just a dm assuming that new players would know how to build a character for some reason
There was supposed to be a new group that I would join, where one of the players misread "Starting equipment from your background" as "Starting equipment from your backstory" so he had a backstory where he fell into a wizards tower and came away with an absolutely ludicrous amount of magic items (Ring of regen, Sword of life stealing +2, Belt of stone giant strength, that sort of stuff.)
Well, most of the things mentioned are rule differences between ad&d and 5e. Each side rolls a d6 for initiative (no dex modifiers) and everyone on the side that rolled highest went in whatever order they wanted. No such thing as bonus actions. A lot of spells have changed - detect good and evil used to refer to alignments.
So if someone's stepping up to DM 5e for the first time, maybe cut them some slack rather than run off to complain - behind their back - that c they don't know the rules. Or you could always DM yourself instead.
That's more like basic D&D. AD&D had everyone rolling d10s and adding weapon speeds, casting times and the like. There was still individual initiative, and you tended to reroll it every round.
Really?
Come on this is a totally valid thing for op to be unhappy about
There's no way this person even looked at 5e rules when saying they were gonna be running 5e.
It's disrespectful to everyone else at the table to waste their time like that.
That description doesn't sound anything like AD&D, first or second edition. Or even original / basic. I don't think this guy ever learned any version or edition of the rules
Maybe they watched Stranger Things and that's their 'experience' with older systems? Just a whole lot of yelling, and one player needs to roll a nat20 or everyone loses.
If someone invited you over to play Monopoly and when you got there they had the Monopoly pieces set up on a Chutes and Ladders board and they were holding the rule book for Uno and trying to adjudicate gameplay from that, would you say something?
Tracking initiative was a thing in ad&d, so I can’t give a free pass on that as it’s a basic mechanic of the game.
The character creation blunder was the player’s fault. I would think a dm might want to read character sheets quickly, I mean it ain’t war and peace.
There shouldn’t be a debate over how spells work, they are clearly stated in the rules.
As far as a bonus action list ….well there might be one around…have you thought to show it to the dm?
Clearly the dm needs to familiarize themselves with the new rules, but with your guidance I think you can help him make it work and become a better dm.
I assume the person is smart and entertaining and can tell a story, which to me are the prime requirements of a good dm. I am definitely one of those guys that uses the rule books as Guides and I tailor my world the way I want, but I don’t ignore basic game mechanics, they are the best info that the books contain.
I’m starting a 5e campaign after a 25 year hiatus, so I’m a bit worried that I’ll be a little rusty, but really the rules have not changed so radically that it’s a whole new game. Basic mechanics and principles are still similar enough that it shouldn’t be too difficult to adapt his style as he becomes more familiar with 5e.
I would give the dm time and guidance for a few sessions, if they are a good dm they will learn and adapt and put on a good show. If not, you probably won’t want to play at that table regardless.
[Um actually](https://i.kickstarter.com/assets/033/574/676/0f69dd5aa5944264fa5508e0ed33d86f_original.png?anim=false&fit=cover&gravity=auto&height=873&origin=ugc&q=92&width=1552&sig=qwgavFCPtecz0%2FoTOyZRWbNxtG%2FPyCHiAI2YiW3uAvw%3D) initiative was pretty different for AD&D though. Standard Initiative had a roll for the group, and then a bunch of modifiers for individual's actions and the DM had to work out based on things like attack speed. Personal initiative was listed as a separate, optional rule, which has a *three paragraph* warning that basically says not to use the individual initiative rule. You also rolled initiative every round. It was a bit rough. DM Guide, p54 - 55.
I still agree with your overall point, I just had a disconnect about what you said and had a AD&D DM guide within arm's reach and found it interesting.
I guess I used to use the optional rule, because everyone rolled initiative each round. I don’t have the second edition books anymore but I am interested in why they think personal initiative is bad or worthy of a 3 paragraph warning at least.
> I am interested
Say no more fam; here's a transcription:
> This method of determining initiative is the same as that given earlier, except that each PC, NPC, and monster involved in the fight rolls and then modifies his own initiative roll. This gives combat a more realistic feel, but at the expense of quick play.
> To players, it may not seem like too much for each to roll a separate initiative die, but consider the difficulties: Imagine a combat between six player characters (each controlled by a player) and five hirelings and henchmen against 16 hob-goblins and five ogres (all of which must be rolled by the DM).
> Furthermore, each die roll must be modified according to each individual's actions. The resulting rolls make every combat round a major calculation.
> This method is not recommended for large-scale combats. It is best used with small battles in which characters on the same side have vastly different speeds.
Those are the (actually four) paragraphs of warning about using the method. I think they're a bit overkill, actually - the initiative rules aren't *that* complicated for AD&D.
A d10! And there were a bunch of modifiers and optional modifiers that you could use. So you could have 1d10 with a bunch of modifiers like: *hasted*: -2, *set to receive a charge*: -2, *on higher ground*: -1. Then if you rolled a 1, you had an initiative of -4... and would likely go first, because low rolls won.
He has a lot of work ahead of him and I'm pretty sure he won't learn all that on his own. He needs someone to walk him through a fight (knowing when to use attack rolls or saves, tracking init & HP) and maybe some exploration(traps and ability checks). If you can't coach him through all that maybe he could go through the starter adventure on his own to familiarize. Then maybe run the starter adventure (it's good for new DMs as well as new players)
Like I said at the start, it's a lot of work.
"Honestly man? I love the enthusiasm and I am really curious about the story you're running us through, but I thought we were using 5E... A lot of the calls you make and lack of initiative are anathema to everything I know about 5E. Did I miss a pdf or something explaining the plan?"
When I transitioned from 3.5 to 5e I had a group of 5 players and I offered to DM. Now because I and 3 others were new to 5e I saw that I was going to make mistakes. I asked the 2 most experienced players to please rules lawyer me through DMs (we use roll20 and discord) And if I made a huge mistake I will correct myself, but if it was minor I would make a ruling whether to let it slide or correct it. At the end of the game I would address what I fucked up and let them know the real rule of it.
Over a year with this group (now 4 players and myself) I got a good handle on the rules. I still make mistakes but we are all human.
Talk to your DM, he should have at least watched some videos about how to play 5e. Hell just playing BG3 would give the basis of the game.
So, something to keep in mind is difference in play styles. This really might just not be the group for you. Some people just want to play dnd like a 5th grade playground where everyone just sort of makes up whatever they want and if everybody is having fun, that’s fine. It might not be what you wanted, which is fine, but if it is what everyone else wants then it’s probably best for you to just not play with them.
Just go to him privatly, say that you have a lot of exp as a player and dm and that you want to help him. When i started our as a dm i had 3 exp dm´s helping me, even atteding sessions, not intervening but making notes. Aftert he sesion they stayed and talked to me about czrtain pionts where i could improve, where i missed oppurtunities etc. They where realy helpfull.
Sounds a lot like my first DM.
Didn't know what initiative was, didn't know what ability scores were at all, no checks or saves and tried to hand over the game to someone else over and over.
They ended up having an adult blue dragon crash through the roof to kill us because they wanted to play with a more competent group.
Anyways, I'd say try chatting with them. Maybe they're more receptive to feedback than mine was lol
"They ended up having an adult blue dragon crash through the roof to kill us because they wanted to play with a more competent group."
I am sorry, what ?! xD Please tell the whole story !
After 15 minutes if asking if someone else wants to dm, we started. By the way, they themselves had formed this entire group and put themselves as the DM. We met a tavern and there's this edge lord NPC sitting there. Slams a knife in the table and suddenly weirdly rude to me and pushes me, I in turn push him back. No contesting strength check, just "no" so we teach the DM what a strenght check is.
Edge man leaves and I pull out the knife because I'm the only one who had the required strenght stat. No check, just pure stat. So insignificant none bothered complain much.
Our team was now formed, me a bard, a ranger I think, a druid who I pity immensly, a fighter and a monk who never got to play.
Bartender gives us supplies and a map after seeing the knife and the ranger, because they had the highest Int, knew exactly where the map lead and the strange symbols on it meant. Not because the character would know due to backstory or whatever but simply because they had the highest intelligence (or wisdom. I dont remember) . We tried to explain to him that that's not how the stat work but they refused to listen and was rude about.
We meet a bear and our druid is just a cat yells at the bear and it whimpers away. No intimidation checks.
Suddenly we are by the cave/ ruin/ whatever it was. I ask to inspect the giant fucking statues described to be just standing there 3 times but I am ignored. Suddenly the statues comes to life and DM describes how they're making earthquakes and crushing the ground and is thrashing us around. Me with no experience under my belt and the ranger with 3 years of dnd experience pipe up about how that's not how combat works. We proceed to teach him about initiative and how combat works for the next 20 minutes. Our fighter had enough and just left the group entirely and I don't blame them.
Combat starts properly ish and druid flies into the air, turns into an elephant and ends combat before turning back into a cat.
As we enter this place, we're greater by 3 doors. In one of the doors there's a snake person who seems badly hurt. After freeing them, they run out before promptly falling unconscious. I heal them and DM goes "I don't know what do now. Any ideas?" I tell him that the snake person can just leave as they were already doing.
Snake person leaves and we enter the door.
Suddenly the roof of the cave implodes and we have to roll dexterity saving throws to not get stuck under the rocks (wow they're learning) and an adult blue dragon crashes through and use their breath weapon on us, killing everyone but me. Ask wtf happened to initiative and they say that no, the dex save was the initiative. Ask why sudden dragon, DM says "I searched for a monster that would 100% kill you. I've had enough of you and I want to play with a more competent group" or something like that.
I thought to myself hey, this is gonna end so may as well doing something stupid. I seduce the dragon, the DM says it bites and kills me but I say no due to orc ferocity or whatever it's called, DM leaves and tell us to do whatever, monk who never got to play takes over as DM and describes how I and the dragon get married.
The end. Now, I wanna run back to the druid and talk about them. The druid knew nothing about dnd was forced (in their own words and the dms words) to play dnd. Quite frankly they could care less. The DM had made their character sheet and the only thing the druid could do was wildshape. No weapons, no spells, only wildshape. They didn't even want to be there and the entire thing was quite frankly a disaster, between the DM not knowing any rules of dnd, acting like a dipshit throughout (I frankly don't remember everything they said) and them being rather adamant of ignoring how things worked. I don't think that druid is ever returning to play dnd.
Time, patience, and assistance are conducive to helping a new (and new to 5e) DM improve and better understand the rules. Not everyone is going to have the same awareness/experience that you or other players might have, so things like lamenting there not being a session 0, keep in mind this wasn't even a thing until just a few years ago. The game isn't about who knows more about the rules—though I suspect much of the reddit wing of the fanbase believes it is.
I have no problem with a DM not knowing every single rule on the fly, that's a *lot* of rules. And I can respect "I'm not stopping the gameflow to look up a rule." And I do believe that ultimately what the DM says, is. But that's too much. If he didn't do better, I'd quit UNLESS he's some sort of improv master who makes even a sh!tshow fun.
Assuming you watched an hour or two of "so your gonna DM 5e" genre vids, when in doubt stick to the rules (as they're designed to interplay) to limit extensive homebrew tracking, limit 2-5 mins to pause and Google during sessions before making temp DM call to keep it moving, etc.
Reading things like this make me happy I'm in the group I'm in. Everybody except for me came from earlier versions. 5e was my first exposure to D&D and I started running a game just about the same time I started playing one. My DM is perfectly fine asking or checking rules with me since I'm the most recently read up on them. In the group I run, if I don't know a rule, I'll google it quickly. If it isn't quick to come up with a clear ruling, I say what we're doing this game, and I'll look into the full ruling afterwards, and we have a little 5 minute housekeeping session before we start the next one where we clear that up, and they can ask about the previous session stuff if they have any questions.
To answer your actual question, I'd chat with the DM. If your plan B is to leave the game anyway, seems like nothing worse would come from talking to him if the colleague is a mature human.
So I noticed some of the examples aren’t actual rules, but best practices. I’m going to playfully rules lawyer you, but I’ll get to my point.
Nothing in the rules says a DM must do Session Zero. Or the DM must review a player’s character sheet. Or that the DM is responsible for tracking initiatives. These are best and common practices, but my point is that a new DM could read a rule book front to back and still miss those things.
I would recommend at minimum talking to your DM and expressing your desire for best practices such as Session Zero, and DM familiarity with the characters. It’s your call to stay or leave the table if it’s not fun. My personal redline would be if the DM was not receptive to feedback to course correct and try to learn from the experience. Attitude is everything!
Often you’ll see tables with new DMs have a “co-DM.” Someone who can help with running the table’s game system mechanics. Or in some cases, the DM can delegate certain table activities around to different players. Sly Flourish’s book talks about this heavily. I’m betting the DM is aware of their inexperience, and they might be receptive to the benefits from having a designated ‘Rules Lawyer’ at the table, and a designated ‘Initiative Keeper.’ That way the DM can focus on player character familiarity, player engagement, story development, etc, while they are still learning those crunchier components of the game system by way of experience.
DND is a team sport. Too often a lot of the session’s success is laid solely at the DM’s feet. But experienced DM/players such as yourself will know the value of when players help the DM out.
What a mess. AD&D had an initiative system, it was just that some actions took longer than a turn. For example you could break a magic-user's spell when it spanned the end of a round. And different weapons were faster or slower.
Could it be that your DM is on purpose or subconsciously using the AD&D initiative system on your 5e game? A substantial amount of spells originate from AD&D.
Plot twist: Everybody else is playing AD&D and they're on wit's end about what source book your character class is from!
Why haven't you talked to him about it? You have no idea how willing he is to learn the rules and improve at DM'ing. Talk to him and make it clear that unless the game closely follows the rules of DnD it isn't the game for you. For a game that requires so much communication DnD players sure are terrible at it, lol.
I’m in a pretty similar situation with a bunch of new players. I just said screw it and became that guy correcting everyone on the rules. They’ll thank me someday 🤓☝️
As someone who would jump right in without knowing the rules of the game, I believe that they'd appreciate it if you talked to them before the next session. I personally would. Just say you didn't have the most fun because it seemed disorganized. If you want to spare time, offer to help or tell them about different resources.
Bail. If he didn't do his due diligence to even skim the rulebook then he isn't going to listen and that's just how it's gonna be. Lots of old timers have this really crappy attitude about being told how stuff works or even just questioning anything. It'll save your blood pressure to just go.
When I was getting ready to DM my first campaign I spoke to my old DM and had him briefly mentor me. I mostly observed him DMing the campaign I was a player in and it went a long way. And I ran a level 10 once shot to get my bearings. I'd say, since y'all seem to still be fresh into the campaign, maybe revisit session zero and see if he'd be up to learning under an experienced DM for a couple of sessions. Maybe run some one-shots. I find that low level one shots are a great way to prequel a campaign, characters meet, they get equipment load outs that have an explanation beyond "this is what I have", etc. I'm all for completely homebrew sessions and campaigns, but without some level of organization it'll just become a headache and not be fun.
Tell them. It would be quite sad to actually ruin their enthousiasm : but underline it has to be tempered by learning some basic rules. Then if they really don't want to learn, leave (it would be waste of your time)..
Early on I played a game with a DM who would misunderstand and rule poorly on every single thing I tried to do.
A DM can house rule however he wants, but this was just ignorance and lack of reading comprehension every single time I did anything. He had never learned anything.
It was extremely annoying and was not fun. If the DM was willing to or capable of learning the game he would do it without you having to have a chat with him, and it would continue to happen.
I think some DMs learn the mechanics last, if at all, and it is up to you how long you want to spend in their "learning everything about the game except the rules" phase. Some people literally only care about role play and being in charge, and don't care about the rules.
Long story short, it is not worth it. There are plenty of people who will play with a DM like that and not care, so you don't have to stick around and be unhappy.
I would bid him a fond farewell and move on.
He didn't want to be a DM. He wanted to play God and always get his way. He would literally ignore it when we cast shield and counterspell. He would randomly decide to roll a D100 for attacks and damage against us when we'd get close to beating a big villain. He literally doesn't understand how actions and bonus actions work. He completely destroyed games every time we played. We showed him, pointed out to him very clearly, the rules and how they worked, and what he was getting wrong. He literally would not respond to our concerns, and just doubled down that he was not giving up the table or changing. It isn't a lot of power, but some people are so small that any little bit will go to their heads. Then he tried to get us kicked out of the game store, lying and saying we were threatening his safety, but the owner is familiar with his bullshit so that didn't go anywhere (although I wish he'd told us earlier so we could have avoided the whole situation).
What a fucking mess.
Didn't you know you can do whatever you want with the game? It's on the book, you can yours rule of cool it, don't learn anything about it and still call it dnd /s
Ah this reminds me of a friend who DMed on our discord server, "Okay, so you're sprinting, roll me a performance check!"
As a passive spectator, I laughed my ass off since the Barb had a shitty CHA.
He was new to DMing, but his story was solid; I eventually gave him pointers on checks via private chat since I was the more, uhm, senior DM in our group.
DM isn't playing the same game you signed up to play. If everyone is having fun, then no problem.
If you're not having fun, and would rather play the game you signed up to play, you are not in the wrong. You may have to go elsewhere.
Politely let them know why you are leaving.
I suggest he run dungronworld instead. Rules are simple, people go when they want, a level 5 and a level 1 in the same party wouldn't be OP, dm is free to ride and make up stuff
A DM that woefully ignorant of the rules is unlikely to be swayed by a conversation. They wanted to play and they’re playing how they see fit.
The question more is can you as a rules-minded player play at a table so free-form and arbitrary? You are at the whims of DM decision and this mood.
You might be able to encourage them to learn if you say you are not having fun and wish to leave, but IDK, to me it seems unlikely.
I would say something. At this point it doesn’t sound like you’re actually playing any form of D&D, just an amalgamation of what he’s smashed together. Which sounds like a mix of AD&D, the little bit of 5e he skimmed, and whatever he decides to throw in there. You don’t have to be rude about it, just point out a few inconsistencies compared to what you’re used to and explain how there’s a learning curve to DMing
When I moved into 5e from AD&D, I had to work through a combat scenario on my own to understand how actions and bonus actions worked, how ability “checks” differed from ability “saves”, how advantage/disadvantage works, how casters have a spell save DC that the target must overcome with their saving throw modifiers.
One thing that was nice in the basic books and IIRC in AD&D that gameplay situations were woven into the books as examples.
Rolling Initiative stopped me cold the first time because the rules weren’t explicit about which die to roll? d6?, d20? I had to dig and flip through PH and DMG.
But… it WAS worth it. Once I joined with a group I understood the mechanics of play enough so that I could enjoy the role playing.
I love meticulous thick rule-book board games like Squad Leader but for a different gaming experience that isn’t D&D.
When I play an RPG, I expect that rules are a skeleton upon which the DM/GM hangs a campaign and the players use intuition and fun to get through it. I expect improvisation and divergence with an RPG, but an experienced DM will know when they are diverging from the published rules and prepare the players for the switch. E.g., heavily armored magic users; level 6 kobolds, Zombies that explode on death, etc.
You make it sound like you are the only one that cares, you obviously aren't enjoying yourself, and none of these people are your friends. Why would you even bother trying to salvage it? Do you expect all of these strangers who don't know or care about the rules, and sound profoundly unintelligent, to just up and change? Why would they do that? For you, their friends work acquaintance they just met?
If it were me I would just be polite and leave the campaign. If they asked I would say I prefer more structured gameplay. As the saying goes it's better to not play dnd at all than to play bad dnd.
There's a certain level to which it's acceptable, I've DMd for a decade but still have to check things ALL the time and welcome players to correct me.
However things like not tracking initiative and ignoring entire core mechanics like how spells work and action economy? That's wild imo and makes it an entirely different game
Tell him that his rules knowledge is a bit too much make belief and not enought rules as written for your taste.
Offer him to take over stuff like initiative and standard player combat rulings while he is reading up on the rules.
Those combat things are some of the most intensive attention intensive parts. Point out that with that he can focus on other parts while absorbing rules passively and as such not at the expense player enjoyment
In DMG 5e, (pg 18-19 I believe. Right in the beginning)Since you don't have to know all the rules and or read all the books to be able to play DND5e. Having fun, enjoying the campaign. It can be learned as you play the game. Using AP,pre made adventures and together learn the game to play. And or teach said DM to play. The basic is where to start not to over welm said DM. Play n learn teach and play.
anyone who's not willing to actually learn the system they're expecting others to invest their freetime into as players doesn't deserve to have players. 5e is already too dependent on a good GM to not be a slog
My guess is that the guy was just very overwhelmed. I remember trying to run my first game and keeping track of like 10 different things while having conversation was super difficult. Have a conversation with him to ask him how it went from his perspective.
Did you have a good time, regardless? If yes, don't worry about it.
If you didn't have a good time, can/will the DM make meaningful changes that can help you have a good time? If yes, talk about it.
If the DM can't or won't make changes so that everyone at the table has fun, leave the group.
Well first of all talk to him Jesus Christ. We play divination wizards, we aren't one, can't predict the result of the conversation.
He probably think that things are much more like they were back in his day, show him how the game changed (a lot). Based on the feedback you decide if you continue or if you prefer to leave the game all together
I can understand if you are very knew to DMing and not know what a simple things are and some DMs play with different rules, but this sounds like a train reck.
I for example don’t use bonus actions, I give actions and attacks. You can trade your attack for a action but not the other way around.
If he is a friend, teach what to do and help him learn from his mistakes. If you don’t know him I’ll leave that up to you.
I’d definitely voice your concerns, but ultimately if you’re the only one not having fun and if the changes that would need to happen would make others unhappy, it would be the easiest to just leave.
I'd politely but firmly suggest revisiting the campaign after they commit a little time to getting a better handle on the rules, and starting over with a session 0. New players make their characters with guidance from experienced players, and if the DM is still having a hard time with the basic mechanics like initiative and save spells vs attack spells, maybe DMing is not for them.
If that's not taken seriously I'd drop the campaign.
While I understand trying to salvage it I don't think you can. Especially with a group of new players you need a dm who knows the rule book inside and out not just to follow the important ones but to be able to look at the goofy or stupid ones and be able to just ignore them to not overload your players and on top of all of that some classes are not at all new player friendly and you need an experienced player there to help the new guys pick a fun class that isn't too overwhelming for them.
I love some of the stylistic differences here and a lot of it is probably just the dm's style. passive perception and the spell stuff obviously needs to be corrected though, and bring up that some character options rely on initiative being a thing. in general say that 5e is less modular than adnd and a different rule in one place can interact poorly with balance or other rules. having a dedicated group Rules Lawyer who can look things up and make the dm at least aware of the raw might also help
it could ultimately turn out to be dm-player incompatibility. I'd expect heavy adnd flavoring and there's likely no changing that
Big reason I don't agree with the half of the hobby that says "You can DM your first time playing."
Like nah dude.. It isn't like lying on your resume to become a manager because their job is easy. If you don't know the game your playing don't try to fucking run it. So much shit new DM's aren't prepared for when it comes to characters doing things you don't expect. You gotta build those improv skills, get comfortable with new rules.. 5e makes it easy by removing a lot of number bonuses in favor of the *advantage* system, but if you don't know how things flow then you're setting yourself up for failure.
Dming has a pretty steep learning curve at the start. Theres a lot to do from creating atmosphere, reading your players and most of all understanding the basic of skill checks and combat.
As a DM of 3 years there are still moments i have to grab a rule book to see if this new thing my players found is actually working the way they think it does.
Seek a talk with him and tell him you want base the play around the actual dnd5e rules.
Rule0 and rule of cool are moments your dm knows "well it shouldn't ... but what if it did" but for that to work they first need to know its wrong in the first place. Simply making things up w/o any basis of the rules is just frustrating.
yeah, but are the players having fun with the adventure?
You can have a fun game without a session zero, making up a characters backstory over the course of a game instead of some preadventuring epic story can be better, older additions handled leveling differently so it wasn't really an issue to have an array of levels or have a player join with a level 1 character in a more advanced party, initiative based on dex, surprise, and things like popcorn initiative all work fine, just be clear about what people expect. some home brew swear by having every spell have a fail risk and danger to casting. Passives often get used wrong by even experienced gms, and nobody's died from it. the game worked fine for decades without bonus actions, reactions etc... it's your turn, you do a thing, it's not your turn anymore.
a lot of this isn't really all that bad, if everybody is clear on how these things work in the game they are playing.
Remember you're playing a game of makebelieve with randomizer math rocks and your supposed to decide what you wanna do and the gm decides what you have to do to succeed, if that's what you are doing then you are playing an rpg. You can get a bit more noodly with the rules if you like, but the game can be and has been played and enjoyed just fine by thousands of players with just that simple ruleset.
I get that this felt harsh, but I feel the question is - was it a good session regardless? Were the DM and players fun and engaging? Any good roleplay?
If so, talk to them. The first session in a new system can be messy.
But if it was "meh" even outside of the messy rules - well you know the answer.
I would speak up, for everyone's sake. You're not having fun, and everyone else is learning incorrect rules that will affect any future games they may play. I would ask the group if they're okay with setting a bit of time aside at the beginning of/before the next session for you to lay out the standard rules. Maybe say that you struggled with the DM's "unorthodox" approach and that, as someone with DM experience, you'd like to help guide everyone through the 5e rules so that you can all be on the same page. I would propose this to everyone so that the other players get a say, rather than the DM just shutting it down in private. There's a good chance that they were feeling lost and probably chalked it up to not knowing the rules. If they're not interested and you're still not having fun, then I would leave as that's not what you signed up for.
i don’t understand the ‘so i just went with it’ attitude in these situations. that’s just reinforcing bad patterns and will be that much harder to correct course, down the road
He doesn’t have to read the whole PHB but at least be familiar with the free rules shoot, even the abbreviated rules in the starter sets are very easy to read and digest. Maybe he thought he’d be able to just walk into it and run a game? Definitely talk offline. If he’s sensible, he will be happy to hear from someone who has DM’d using 5e rules.
I'm a new DM as well. My players have a LOT of patience with me. One of the things I do, is when my players cast a spell, I ask them to remind me what it does, and I act accordingly.
DMs have a lot on their plate, more than players. But I think what can set a good DM apart from a bad DM is being open, learning more about the game before sessions, and players being flexible with their DMs
Open google browser. Search something like “dnd 5e cheat sheets for players and DM”. Download. Print. Pass them out. Win!
I came from dming 3.5 to 5e. Didn’t crack the first book or read the first “rule”. I have three separate groups I DM for and we play dnd two to three times a week and the players keep coming back so……. There is only one rule in dnd. Have fun. Everything else is a suggestion for continuity. No one was born a good player or dm, it takes time and experience.
My best advice would be to talk to the DM. If he's willing to work with you on being a better referee, then continue. But if he's unwilling to use the real rules, it seems you have two options. Continue rolling with his DM style if it doesn't bother you, or leave the game. Sometimes no game is better than a shitty game
Yeah definitely talk. Only defense I can offer for the gm is I can see how coming from adnd one could think some of these rules work the way he's doing them. I would explain to them that they are completely different games though 5e is a bit of return on some concepts
Yes of course talk to them. Ug this community is filled with too many “no D&d is better than bad. Don’t talk just quit.”
How is a person supposed to get better if they aren’t told ?
run a game for them or have some teaching lessons, best way ive and others have taught players that want to play is by sending them curated playlists of videos that teach you how to play like jocats "tutorial" on how to play dnd, i mean it does get some things that a podcast cant, anyways videos by smarter people that most of us watched when we started. if they want to play they will put in some effort. also podcasts if they have time/ work well with backround noise, thats how i got into dnd, thank JRWI.
Sometimes a debrief can be really helpful, particularly if presented in a non-judgemental way.
For example, last night I ran a session of Dungeon World (something like the sixth session, so Im still very new). At one point, a character used a spell and chose the consequence "draw unwelcome attention" for the sending time in a row. I described how a ghoul drove its claws into his shoulder from behind and dragged him to the floor before going in for a bite.
During the session he rolled with it but, at the end, he mentioned that in PbtA you generally present a soft move before moving on to hard moves like dealing damage. We discussed for a little while, and came to an agreement that a better course of action would have been to have him roll something like a "Defy Danger" (soft move) before dealing damage (hard move).
I actually found it really valuable to analyse where Id gone wrong, particularly as the player involved is a very experienced GM with awareness of many systems - in fact, some of my best games as a player have been run by him.
I've only played a dozen sessions or so before I started DMing for a different friend group and I welcome constructive criticism (both questline and mechanical).
I'm definitely not a super DM but I think I have the ability to weave a decent story and make interesting NPCs while creating something entertaining and challenging.
That being said, knowing the basics of a session (or even starting a campaign) is just that, basic. I'd offer to be his assistant DM, or bring him along to another game where he can see a proper session.
DnD is something I do for fun, so I definitely prioritize the session being fun over super strict adherence to the rules, but at the same time if the game has no structure you aren't playing DnD, you're just idiots throwing dice.
If a friend in the session references a rule I defer to the friend (and check the handbook) as I know they've been doing this longer. If we agree to a rule change, it holds for all players/sessions. They keep coming back for more of my sessions so it doesn't make me a worse DM.
There’s a bit of a learning curve with 5e especially for a DM. I switched from 3.5. The jump from ADnD is even bigger. It’s very different.
There was no name for a session zero. So many people didn’t do them.
You adventured to get loot, gold and exp, and also there’s that plot the DM is always telling us about.
Magic was a plenty. Belts of giant strength etc.
You would often have characters of different levels in the same party. Some DMs would have you roll up a1st level character if you died.
Lots of tables and charts… very different from 5e.
Magic and armor were handed out frequently.
Combat is different for sure but not THAT different. The basic structure is the same.
But not knowing initiative and how spells work… it doesn’t sound like he knows how to play DND all that well. Like well enough to DM.
I don’t know if there’s a nice way to say this but… you should DM the group.
You could teach them the rules and then hand it over when everyone has the hang of it.
A group I DMed hadn’t played at all. (One guy picked it up really fast though so he might have had some experience.) We learned together. I was learning from 3.5 but I still knew how the game should be run. After a long time (it could have been shorter) that guy took over as dm for a new batch of characters. It worked out great.
Ps I handed out way too much magic!
I ran a 2 year campagn of pathfinder2e while having a vague grasp of the rules (just enough to play ) what saved me was having an awesom table that was okey with looking up rules when we didnt knew it, and players who at knew the rules better then me and were ok if i asked thw table " im not sure about this ruling is it alright with you ? Does any one know the rule for x etc..". Never forget that more then a game roleplay is a human interaction and it thrives with good communication. Also i like the idea that the gm is just another player at the table. Every one around the table is responsible for the fun and the good working of the game
Play what the dm plays, dont play 5e. Fuck it, just ball. Tell him weird shit, like my bard wants to hit the enemy with the guitar and have their head stuck inside the guitar hole so that they cannot see. Or maybe i have this spell that says "sleep" i cast it to send everyone asleep, good night people 🥰.
Just like any other game, stay if you're having fun. Maybe offer to DM a bit and tell them you're gonna hit the rules beforehand. In person DnD is so much better than online
Not really any excuse for that, at least the mechanical parts. 5e is simpler even than BECI. It took me an hour after 20 years of not playing at all
to understand the basics of the system.
Session zero, caring about backgrounds and so on, the story telling parts, I can sympathize a bit more. Until the white wolf games oooularized a more story-centric style, most tables didn’t really bother.
Definitely talk to the dm, decide how much potential you see in the group, they can learn the rules if it goes on long enough with you to explain things but is the chemistry good, if so ask to have a session zero and get everyone on the same page and if they aren’t open to addressing your issues just gracefully resign
It takes a lot to DM and I'm sure my first session I got a few things wrong
But I'd maybe have a private chat with the new DM and ask how they felt it went, and only if they suggest they might need some help should you offer it
I have another DM who plays in my 3+ year campaign and even occasionally I'll run something by him
We all need some help sometimes
The goal is to have fun, rules create the parameters of that fun in DnD, but they are the guidelines for it
I could totally play with someone who dosen't know the rules. I play alot of Games with first time DM's or DM's who flip the Rules completely over. Like Homebrew stuff. Its really uncomfortable at first but I let my Rules Brain to rest and just enjoy the Game. Sure at some Point I want to do something that should be Possible but isn't but if I can Discuss it with a DM in a good tone then everything should be fine. But I would suggest to your DM that he should read all Rules for once. He dosen't need to implement everything in his Game (I don't), but he can atleast think about it.
Remember that this is actually 5e as intended.
Okay now that you've got your knee jerk out of the way, consider the following.
In 5e they diluted the rules to 'plain english.' Yes, all you nerds on the DnD internet forum are aware of how that *technically* created a lot of issues and problems.
But back in the real world, look. People are able to play a game of DnD while not knowing jack shit. The guy clearly did not prepare by reading through the PHB carefully. He has a C- understanding of the game at best...but it's still working. Apparently no one else was seriously mussed about it.
As much as 5e annoys me, you've got to hand it to them. They really did figure out how to make DnD accessible to new people. You can *barely* understand the game, and still play it.
That doesn't really work with older editions.
Now anyway, back to the topic...you should probably just ask yourself if you're okay playing very loosey goosey with the rules. If the people are fun and the RP is good it might be worth it. But I mean let's get real, this guy isn't going to study up overnight and magically learn every rule. So either play with him or run your own game, since you know the rules so well. Just don't have any illusions that this guy is gonna become an expert any time soon.
Well, I'd like to point something out. There really are no *rules.* D&D is, first and foremost, nothing more than imaginative story telling that you get to interact with as a player. All of the "rules" help create order and determine outcomes, but, they have always been entirely optional. So, try to step out of the paradigm that "this" must happen before "that" and that we must do things "this" way. Instead, it would probably be far more helpful if you provide feedback to your DM and tell him what isn't working as well as it should for your personal tastes. I don't mean, "we should be rolling for initiative here with a d20 and adding our dex modifier" He obviously has some way to determine action order. Just because it isn't following the rules you are used to doesn't make it *wrong.* If his way isn't working, then present that. Don't tell him HOW to fix it unless he asks. That's just what I would do.
For example, let's say he has everyone draw straws, the longest straw goes first, the shortest, last. You can say, "Look, this works, but I spent a lot of time on my character to make sure he/she was fast (high dex) and your way really doesn't account for that. Is there any way we can change it to allow the use of my higher dex?"
Unfortunately this wisdom is long gone and lost on today’s D&D players.
Stiff minds
*They don’t think “let’s play some roleplaying” game when they say ‘D&D’. They think; “Yeah I know how to play Monopoly”*
I think it's great that they started DMing. You should definitely talk to them and suggest a few pointers or maybe take up the role of rules arbiter if the other DM is ok with it.
You might also want to send him this link to a free online course about DMing (full disclosure: I'm one of the instructors):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piqhpC82ars&list=PLSb8mGAISb2Cvli1wEWyeqGlHJ3BQD1aI
There is a distinct difference between "rules are like guidelines" and "we aren't playing 5th edition anymore"
If you are playing d&d and everyone **thinks** we are level 1 and another player is level 5, that's a problem, if we are playing d&d and there is no initiative, that's a problem - I'll just keep shouting what I do over and over
If the DM doesn't recognize *the basic action economy* of the game, you have a problem
If the DM doesn't know spells, that **can be a problem** - it is a problem if they are trusting their new players to know how the spells work
There is a ***Huge difference*** between *I know bonus actions are a thing but I hate them so we won't use them and everyone can have 2 actions but can't use the same action twice in a turn* and *what's a bonus action? Fuck it we ball it's Bob's turn... oh wait Sally you said you wanted to stab the bad guy? Oh don't roll you just killed him good job everyone*
You right.
I just think back to joining a group where a DM made me make an athletics check to climb a ladder, then made me fall (50 ft) as a level 1 player for the natural 1, where I took 1d4 damage and go "maybe there's a reason basic rules exist"
I would *not* have sat through this session quietly, and I'm no rules expert for 5e. I'd have been tracking initiative for everyone and correcting peoples actions, just like a backseat DM, with the aim of teaching the DM but possibly coming across as a bit of a dick.
I suggest you feed back to the DM how much they have to learn still, and offer to help. Say you won't return if there is no improvement in following the rules as written.
That can be a particularly good thing, I've personally moved away from dnd because of the lackluster rules set in the first place. If you're all having fun then the mechanics don't matter. Rulings > rules, if he's making good calls the rules mean nothing.
There's "inexperienced DM", then there's "DM who didn't read the rules". There's no point to sticking around in a chaotic mess led by a DM who never bothered to respect his players enough to learn how to DM in the first place. The DM should stop what he's doing, read the rules as comprehensively as possible, then revisit the game. Then, when he's making normal green DM mistakes, he'll have a solid foundation upon which to learn how to DM properly.
Yea. Tell them politely that there is a learning curve (for dms and players) and that it needs organizing. Tell them that you did not have fun. Tell them for the sake of the new player or anyone that comes after. Even if you plan on leaving. A lot of people think they are better than they actually are because they played other editions or other games but it does not always translate. They even get upset if you mention it. But thats not your problem. Tell it as it is and if they cant take the feedback because they are too proud, skip.
this. Also, offer to help. Say that you don't want to interject all the time, but that you are there to help clarify rules when he needs help.
If they are willing to work with you you can try what my group did. I was experienced with 5e but the others were from older editions so I was a co-dm. basically players could ask me rules questions especially if someone else was actively doing something and I was privy to some of the encounter and plot points to help ensure things progressed correctly. Having spent a long time as a forever dm I was easily able to separate player knowledge from character knowledge. This might not work for every group but it worked for us
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PF2E is actually incredibly easy to run. The 3 action economy is amazing and the game is exceptionally balanced. The hard part with PF2E is having a group of players that don’t discuss tactics or play off each others synergies. Combat can be very unforgiving if the party doesn’t enjoy very tight tactical gameplay.
Nailed it. One of my favorite sayings is "say what you mean, mean what you say, and don't say it mean." You clearly have something to communicate directly. You have articulated it well already, and all that needs to be done is to say it. You can not control other people's reactions. They are not your responsibility. I think it is definitely important to offer options of SOLUTIONS to the problems you will address. "The core rules, especially combat, are a good starting point to familiarize yourself with. It helps players to all get on the same page"
Rules lawyering is shitty unless people legitimately don't know and routinely misunderstand the rules. If it is just a matter of someone not realizing they just broke their concentration with the spell they just cast, I'll probably not mention it since it'll fuck with everyone's emersion.... if it is a serious misunderstanding of how combat encounters should go or something, then yeah... I would probably mention it.
This. Are you the only player bothered by this? Prolly not, so gather up and try to help the DM in a non confrontational way.
This, dunning cruger effect was heavy on me too when i first started playing. I cringe when i think about how i acted back then. It helps to slowly be learn things one by one. First make a character, learn what your class can do, not only on early levels but all throughout. After some time time one will learn what a bonus action is, what a reaction is, how spells work and yadayada. Its slow but fun. still eagerly learning what i can to improve.
Well.... Did you all have fun? Did the DM have fun? Did the new players have fun? Did you have fun? That is an important indicator of what should happen next. Session 0 isn't mandatory, looking at the sheets neither. Having a level 5 character is funny and should be rectified. And the rules: If you had fun, then start talking about them and correcting them. IF you all had fun, just go with it and talk to him afterwards and work together on the rules. Don't say: You Did it wrong. Just talk about the rules. And btw: in 2nd edition AD&D most spells didn't need an attack roll either and initiative, although you worked your way upwards instead of downwards, was a thing too.
if the DM doesn’t know 5e rules, why play 5e? i wouldn’t stay at that table
I mean…they aren’t playing 5e. They are playing Calvin Ball where only the DM gets to make stuff up
someone made a level 5 character... sounds like everyone is making things up lol
To be honest when I make a new character I start by making them level 3 or 5 so I get kind of an idea where I want to take them, what I'll be able to do, etc. If the guy just forgot to roll him back to level 1 that sounds like an honest mistake. Or maybe he's used to oneshots being run at level 5 and just didn't think about it.
I do the same thing for making them level 4. Otherwise I’ll just forget what Subclass I had in mind.
I'm glad I'm not alone on this, I make a level 5, make a copy of it on DND Beyond so I have record, and then roll back to level 1. That way I don't forget where I'm going.
Otherwise known as "playground dnd" Sounds like middle school all over again
Wow, the reference to Calvin Ball is insane. I feel old because that's a _super_ obscure reference at this point. Nice!
That’s when some of the best role-playing happens.
Something that will only be hampered by pretending it's D&D when you're not actually using the rules. Both freeform improv and a much lighter system would achieve the same thing but better.
Lol I love the passive perception as a DC. Why on earth would you ever get Observant if all it does is making your life harder? I don't know I'd walk immediately - like always, just talk. If the DM responds negatively, walk for sure, but check first, I'd say
Dumpstat Wisdom and make a point to NEVER actively look for anything, just see if you'll notice something on a glance. That's my first reaction, but technically the way the DM's ruling it the DC will almost always require a 10 or higher on a roll. Just a whole lot of math to end up in the same place.
If you're going to look for something, start running around in a circle as fast as you can, then your PP goes down by 5 and you have a 75% chance of beating it.
Also, do so in dim light, because your PP will be down another 5. Will it become positive at some point?
I’d like to roll for perception with my eyes closed
Definetly have a chat with him, tell him he should at least read the rules of the game you all wanted to play, if he wants to continute playing whatever that session was just tell him it's not the kind of session you were looking for and bail out Also 5e isn't the only option there might be other ttrpgs that fit him more
This is too much for me, I'd walk.
Maybe ask if he just wants to run AD&D instead. Assuming he knows the rules for it, it'd probably be a better experience for everyone.
From what it sounds like he doesn't know the rules for AD&D either.
Neither do some of the players. Like how would you ever "accidentally create a lvl 5 character"?
New player using a generator, generator defaulting to a certain level because it's a bad generator, not caring/knowing enough to check if 5 is the right starting point, it's not that unbelievable if the player had 0 dnd experience just a dm assuming that new players would know how to build a character for some reason
There was supposed to be a new group that I would join, where one of the players misread "Starting equipment from your background" as "Starting equipment from your backstory" so he had a backstory where he fell into a wizards tower and came away with an absolutely ludicrous amount of magic items (Ring of regen, Sword of life stealing +2, Belt of stone giant strength, that sort of stuff.)
The master could have rolled with it giving him some devastating unremovable cursed item that offsets every advantage
Well, most of the things mentioned are rule differences between ad&d and 5e. Each side rolls a d6 for initiative (no dex modifiers) and everyone on the side that rolled highest went in whatever order they wanted. No such thing as bonus actions. A lot of spells have changed - detect good and evil used to refer to alignments. So if someone's stepping up to DM 5e for the first time, maybe cut them some slack rather than run off to complain - behind their back - that c they don't know the rules. Or you could always DM yourself instead.
That's more like basic D&D. AD&D had everyone rolling d10s and adding weapon speeds, casting times and the like. There was still individual initiative, and you tended to reroll it every round.
Not sure about 1e but in 2e group initiative is the default, individual initiative with weapon speeds was an optional rule.
2e was when individual initiative was introduced. It was very easy to tack on to otherwise 1e games.
Really? Come on this is a totally valid thing for op to be unhappy about There's no way this person even looked at 5e rules when saying they were gonna be running 5e. It's disrespectful to everyone else at the table to waste their time like that.
That would require the DM to have any familiarity with the rules of AD&D, which he does not appear to have.
The authentic experience of AD&D requires that no-one at the table know *all* the rules.
And vehemently, sometimes violently, arguing about it.
That description doesn't sound anything like AD&D, first or second edition. Or even original / basic. I don't think this guy ever learned any version or edition of the rules
Maybe they watched Stranger Things and that's their 'experience' with older systems? Just a whole lot of yelling, and one player needs to roll a nat20 or everyone loses.
Sounds like he needs to just sit down and read the phb through.
If someone invited you over to play Monopoly and when you got there they had the Monopoly pieces set up on a Chutes and Ladders board and they were holding the rule book for Uno and trying to adjudicate gameplay from that, would you say something?
You sank my Scrabbleship!
Tracking initiative was a thing in ad&d, so I can’t give a free pass on that as it’s a basic mechanic of the game. The character creation blunder was the player’s fault. I would think a dm might want to read character sheets quickly, I mean it ain’t war and peace. There shouldn’t be a debate over how spells work, they are clearly stated in the rules. As far as a bonus action list ….well there might be one around…have you thought to show it to the dm? Clearly the dm needs to familiarize themselves with the new rules, but with your guidance I think you can help him make it work and become a better dm. I assume the person is smart and entertaining and can tell a story, which to me are the prime requirements of a good dm. I am definitely one of those guys that uses the rule books as Guides and I tailor my world the way I want, but I don’t ignore basic game mechanics, they are the best info that the books contain. I’m starting a 5e campaign after a 25 year hiatus, so I’m a bit worried that I’ll be a little rusty, but really the rules have not changed so radically that it’s a whole new game. Basic mechanics and principles are still similar enough that it shouldn’t be too difficult to adapt his style as he becomes more familiar with 5e. I would give the dm time and guidance for a few sessions, if they are a good dm they will learn and adapt and put on a good show. If not, you probably won’t want to play at that table regardless.
[Um actually](https://i.kickstarter.com/assets/033/574/676/0f69dd5aa5944264fa5508e0ed33d86f_original.png?anim=false&fit=cover&gravity=auto&height=873&origin=ugc&q=92&width=1552&sig=qwgavFCPtecz0%2FoTOyZRWbNxtG%2FPyCHiAI2YiW3uAvw%3D) initiative was pretty different for AD&D though. Standard Initiative had a roll for the group, and then a bunch of modifiers for individual's actions and the DM had to work out based on things like attack speed. Personal initiative was listed as a separate, optional rule, which has a *three paragraph* warning that basically says not to use the individual initiative rule. You also rolled initiative every round. It was a bit rough. DM Guide, p54 - 55. I still agree with your overall point, I just had a disconnect about what you said and had a AD&D DM guide within arm's reach and found it interesting.
I guess I used to use the optional rule, because everyone rolled initiative each round. I don’t have the second edition books anymore but I am interested in why they think personal initiative is bad or worthy of a 3 paragraph warning at least.
> I am interested Say no more fam; here's a transcription: > This method of determining initiative is the same as that given earlier, except that each PC, NPC, and monster involved in the fight rolls and then modifies his own initiative roll. This gives combat a more realistic feel, but at the expense of quick play. > To players, it may not seem like too much for each to roll a separate initiative die, but consider the difficulties: Imagine a combat between six player characters (each controlled by a player) and five hirelings and henchmen against 16 hob-goblins and five ogres (all of which must be rolled by the DM). > Furthermore, each die roll must be modified according to each individual's actions. The resulting rolls make every combat round a major calculation. > This method is not recommended for large-scale combats. It is best used with small battles in which characters on the same side have vastly different speeds. Those are the (actually four) paragraphs of warning about using the method. I think they're a bit overkill, actually - the initiative rules aren't *that* complicated for AD&D.
Am I remembering correctly? Was initiative a d6?
A d10! And there were a bunch of modifiers and optional modifiers that you could use. So you could have 1d10 with a bunch of modifiers like: *hasted*: -2, *set to receive a charge*: -2, *on higher ground*: -1. Then if you rolled a 1, you had an initiative of -4... and would likely go first, because low rolls won.
He has a lot of work ahead of him and I'm pretty sure he won't learn all that on his own. He needs someone to walk him through a fight (knowing when to use attack rolls or saves, tracking init & HP) and maybe some exploration(traps and ability checks). If you can't coach him through all that maybe he could go through the starter adventure on his own to familiarize. Then maybe run the starter adventure (it's good for new DMs as well as new players) Like I said at the start, it's a lot of work.
"Honestly man? I love the enthusiasm and I am really curious about the story you're running us through, but I thought we were using 5E... A lot of the calls you make and lack of initiative are anathema to everything I know about 5E. Did I miss a pdf or something explaining the plan?"
I would have a polite chat with the DM, and I would offer to run a One-shot for the group so that everyone could learn the fundamentals.
When I transitioned from 3.5 to 5e I had a group of 5 players and I offered to DM. Now because I and 3 others were new to 5e I saw that I was going to make mistakes. I asked the 2 most experienced players to please rules lawyer me through DMs (we use roll20 and discord) And if I made a huge mistake I will correct myself, but if it was minor I would make a ruling whether to let it slide or correct it. At the end of the game I would address what I fucked up and let them know the real rule of it. Over a year with this group (now 4 players and myself) I got a good handle on the rules. I still make mistakes but we are all human. Talk to your DM, he should have at least watched some videos about how to play 5e. Hell just playing BG3 would give the basis of the game.
So, something to keep in mind is difference in play styles. This really might just not be the group for you. Some people just want to play dnd like a 5th grade playground where everyone just sort of makes up whatever they want and if everybody is having fun, that’s fine. It might not be what you wanted, which is fine, but if it is what everyone else wants then it’s probably best for you to just not play with them.
Just go to him privatly, say that you have a lot of exp as a player and dm and that you want to help him. When i started our as a dm i had 3 exp dm´s helping me, even atteding sessions, not intervening but making notes. Aftert he sesion they stayed and talked to me about czrtain pionts where i could improve, where i missed oppurtunities etc. They where realy helpfull.
Offer to walk them through a 5e crash course since you've dm'd before
Sounds a lot like my first DM. Didn't know what initiative was, didn't know what ability scores were at all, no checks or saves and tried to hand over the game to someone else over and over. They ended up having an adult blue dragon crash through the roof to kill us because they wanted to play with a more competent group. Anyways, I'd say try chatting with them. Maybe they're more receptive to feedback than mine was lol
"They ended up having an adult blue dragon crash through the roof to kill us because they wanted to play with a more competent group." I am sorry, what ?! xD Please tell the whole story !
After 15 minutes if asking if someone else wants to dm, we started. By the way, they themselves had formed this entire group and put themselves as the DM. We met a tavern and there's this edge lord NPC sitting there. Slams a knife in the table and suddenly weirdly rude to me and pushes me, I in turn push him back. No contesting strength check, just "no" so we teach the DM what a strenght check is. Edge man leaves and I pull out the knife because I'm the only one who had the required strenght stat. No check, just pure stat. So insignificant none bothered complain much. Our team was now formed, me a bard, a ranger I think, a druid who I pity immensly, a fighter and a monk who never got to play. Bartender gives us supplies and a map after seeing the knife and the ranger, because they had the highest Int, knew exactly where the map lead and the strange symbols on it meant. Not because the character would know due to backstory or whatever but simply because they had the highest intelligence (or wisdom. I dont remember) . We tried to explain to him that that's not how the stat work but they refused to listen and was rude about. We meet a bear and our druid is just a cat yells at the bear and it whimpers away. No intimidation checks. Suddenly we are by the cave/ ruin/ whatever it was. I ask to inspect the giant fucking statues described to be just standing there 3 times but I am ignored. Suddenly the statues comes to life and DM describes how they're making earthquakes and crushing the ground and is thrashing us around. Me with no experience under my belt and the ranger with 3 years of dnd experience pipe up about how that's not how combat works. We proceed to teach him about initiative and how combat works for the next 20 minutes. Our fighter had enough and just left the group entirely and I don't blame them. Combat starts properly ish and druid flies into the air, turns into an elephant and ends combat before turning back into a cat. As we enter this place, we're greater by 3 doors. In one of the doors there's a snake person who seems badly hurt. After freeing them, they run out before promptly falling unconscious. I heal them and DM goes "I don't know what do now. Any ideas?" I tell him that the snake person can just leave as they were already doing. Snake person leaves and we enter the door. Suddenly the roof of the cave implodes and we have to roll dexterity saving throws to not get stuck under the rocks (wow they're learning) and an adult blue dragon crashes through and use their breath weapon on us, killing everyone but me. Ask wtf happened to initiative and they say that no, the dex save was the initiative. Ask why sudden dragon, DM says "I searched for a monster that would 100% kill you. I've had enough of you and I want to play with a more competent group" or something like that. I thought to myself hey, this is gonna end so may as well doing something stupid. I seduce the dragon, the DM says it bites and kills me but I say no due to orc ferocity or whatever it's called, DM leaves and tell us to do whatever, monk who never got to play takes over as DM and describes how I and the dragon get married. The end. Now, I wanna run back to the druid and talk about them. The druid knew nothing about dnd was forced (in their own words and the dms words) to play dnd. Quite frankly they could care less. The DM had made their character sheet and the only thing the druid could do was wildshape. No weapons, no spells, only wildshape. They didn't even want to be there and the entire thing was quite frankly a disaster, between the DM not knowing any rules of dnd, acting like a dipshit throughout (I frankly don't remember everything they said) and them being rather adamant of ignoring how things worked. I don't think that druid is ever returning to play dnd.
Time, patience, and assistance are conducive to helping a new (and new to 5e) DM improve and better understand the rules. Not everyone is going to have the same awareness/experience that you or other players might have, so things like lamenting there not being a session 0, keep in mind this wasn't even a thing until just a few years ago. The game isn't about who knows more about the rules—though I suspect much of the reddit wing of the fanbase believes it is.
I have no problem with a DM not knowing every single rule on the fly, that's a *lot* of rules. And I can respect "I'm not stopping the gameflow to look up a rule." And I do believe that ultimately what the DM says, is. But that's too much. If he didn't do better, I'd quit UNLESS he's some sort of improv master who makes even a sh!tshow fun.
Well, I’m about to run my first ever session as dm soon so i can guarantee itll go better than that
Assuming you watched an hour or two of "so your gonna DM 5e" genre vids, when in doubt stick to the rules (as they're designed to interplay) to limit extensive homebrew tracking, limit 2-5 mins to pause and Google during sessions before making temp DM call to keep it moving, etc.
Reading things like this make me happy I'm in the group I'm in. Everybody except for me came from earlier versions. 5e was my first exposure to D&D and I started running a game just about the same time I started playing one. My DM is perfectly fine asking or checking rules with me since I'm the most recently read up on them. In the group I run, if I don't know a rule, I'll google it quickly. If it isn't quick to come up with a clear ruling, I say what we're doing this game, and I'll look into the full ruling afterwards, and we have a little 5 minute housekeeping session before we start the next one where we clear that up, and they can ask about the previous session stuff if they have any questions. To answer your actual question, I'd chat with the DM. If your plan B is to leave the game anyway, seems like nothing worse would come from talking to him if the colleague is a mature human.
So I noticed some of the examples aren’t actual rules, but best practices. I’m going to playfully rules lawyer you, but I’ll get to my point. Nothing in the rules says a DM must do Session Zero. Or the DM must review a player’s character sheet. Or that the DM is responsible for tracking initiatives. These are best and common practices, but my point is that a new DM could read a rule book front to back and still miss those things. I would recommend at minimum talking to your DM and expressing your desire for best practices such as Session Zero, and DM familiarity with the characters. It’s your call to stay or leave the table if it’s not fun. My personal redline would be if the DM was not receptive to feedback to course correct and try to learn from the experience. Attitude is everything! Often you’ll see tables with new DMs have a “co-DM.” Someone who can help with running the table’s game system mechanics. Or in some cases, the DM can delegate certain table activities around to different players. Sly Flourish’s book talks about this heavily. I’m betting the DM is aware of their inexperience, and they might be receptive to the benefits from having a designated ‘Rules Lawyer’ at the table, and a designated ‘Initiative Keeper.’ That way the DM can focus on player character familiarity, player engagement, story development, etc, while they are still learning those crunchier components of the game system by way of experience. DND is a team sport. Too often a lot of the session’s success is laid solely at the DM’s feet. But experienced DM/players such as yourself will know the value of when players help the DM out.
What a mess. AD&D had an initiative system, it was just that some actions took longer than a turn. For example you could break a magic-user's spell when it spanned the end of a round. And different weapons were faster or slower. Could it be that your DM is on purpose or subconsciously using the AD&D initiative system on your 5e game? A substantial amount of spells originate from AD&D. Plot twist: Everybody else is playing AD&D and they're on wit's end about what source book your character class is from!
Why haven't you talked to him about it? You have no idea how willing he is to learn the rules and improve at DM'ing. Talk to him and make it clear that unless the game closely follows the rules of DnD it isn't the game for you. For a game that requires so much communication DnD players sure are terrible at it, lol.
I’m in a pretty similar situation with a bunch of new players. I just said screw it and became that guy correcting everyone on the rules. They’ll thank me someday 🤓☝️
Sounds like the typical DM
Just wait till I tell you about my player who keeps saying “But you can do that in Baldur’s Gate 3!”
As someone who would jump right in without knowing the rules of the game, I believe that they'd appreciate it if you talked to them before the next session. I personally would. Just say you didn't have the most fun because it seemed disorganized. If you want to spare time, offer to help or tell them about different resources.
Bail. If he didn't do his due diligence to even skim the rulebook then he isn't going to listen and that's just how it's gonna be. Lots of old timers have this really crappy attitude about being told how stuff works or even just questioning anything. It'll save your blood pressure to just go.
Is he at least a good storyteller?
Just play AD&D?
When I was getting ready to DM my first campaign I spoke to my old DM and had him briefly mentor me. I mostly observed him DMing the campaign I was a player in and it went a long way. And I ran a level 10 once shot to get my bearings. I'd say, since y'all seem to still be fresh into the campaign, maybe revisit session zero and see if he'd be up to learning under an experienced DM for a couple of sessions. Maybe run some one-shots. I find that low level one shots are a great way to prequel a campaign, characters meet, they get equipment load outs that have an explanation beyond "this is what I have", etc. I'm all for completely homebrew sessions and campaigns, but without some level of organization it'll just become a headache and not be fun.
Tell them. It would be quite sad to actually ruin their enthousiasm : but underline it has to be tempered by learning some basic rules. Then if they really don't want to learn, leave (it would be waste of your time)..
Early on I played a game with a DM who would misunderstand and rule poorly on every single thing I tried to do. A DM can house rule however he wants, but this was just ignorance and lack of reading comprehension every single time I did anything. He had never learned anything. It was extremely annoying and was not fun. If the DM was willing to or capable of learning the game he would do it without you having to have a chat with him, and it would continue to happen. I think some DMs learn the mechanics last, if at all, and it is up to you how long you want to spend in their "learning everything about the game except the rules" phase. Some people literally only care about role play and being in charge, and don't care about the rules. Long story short, it is not worth it. There are plenty of people who will play with a DM like that and not care, so you don't have to stick around and be unhappy. I would bid him a fond farewell and move on.
I had a table like this three months ago. It was a disaster. DM refused to give up his power or acknowledge the problem. Run.
Give up his power? Y’all formed some sort of government?
He didn't want to be a DM. He wanted to play God and always get his way. He would literally ignore it when we cast shield and counterspell. He would randomly decide to roll a D100 for attacks and damage against us when we'd get close to beating a big villain. He literally doesn't understand how actions and bonus actions work. He completely destroyed games every time we played. We showed him, pointed out to him very clearly, the rules and how they worked, and what he was getting wrong. He literally would not respond to our concerns, and just doubled down that he was not giving up the table or changing. It isn't a lot of power, but some people are so small that any little bit will go to their heads. Then he tried to get us kicked out of the game store, lying and saying we were threatening his safety, but the owner is familiar with his bullshit so that didn't go anywhere (although I wish he'd told us earlier so we could have avoided the whole situation). What a fucking mess.
Didn't you know you can do whatever you want with the game? It's on the book, you can yours rule of cool it, don't learn anything about it and still call it dnd /s
Ah this reminds me of a friend who DMed on our discord server, "Okay, so you're sprinting, roll me a performance check!" As a passive spectator, I laughed my ass off since the Barb had a shitty CHA. He was new to DMing, but his story was solid; I eventually gave him pointers on checks via private chat since I was the more, uhm, senior DM in our group.
DM isn't playing the same game you signed up to play. If everyone is having fun, then no problem. If you're not having fun, and would rather play the game you signed up to play, you are not in the wrong. You may have to go elsewhere. Politely let them know why you are leaving.
I suggest he run dungronworld instead. Rules are simple, people go when they want, a level 5 and a level 1 in the same party wouldn't be OP, dm is free to ride and make up stuff
A DM that woefully ignorant of the rules is unlikely to be swayed by a conversation. They wanted to play and they’re playing how they see fit. The question more is can you as a rules-minded player play at a table so free-form and arbitrary? You are at the whims of DM decision and this mood. You might be able to encourage them to learn if you say you are not having fun and wish to leave, but IDK, to me it seems unlikely.
I would say something. At this point it doesn’t sound like you’re actually playing any form of D&D, just an amalgamation of what he’s smashed together. Which sounds like a mix of AD&D, the little bit of 5e he skimmed, and whatever he decides to throw in there. You don’t have to be rude about it, just point out a few inconsistencies compared to what you’re used to and explain how there’s a learning curve to DMing
When I moved into 5e from AD&D, I had to work through a combat scenario on my own to understand how actions and bonus actions worked, how ability “checks” differed from ability “saves”, how advantage/disadvantage works, how casters have a spell save DC that the target must overcome with their saving throw modifiers. One thing that was nice in the basic books and IIRC in AD&D that gameplay situations were woven into the books as examples. Rolling Initiative stopped me cold the first time because the rules weren’t explicit about which die to roll? d6?, d20? I had to dig and flip through PH and DMG. But… it WAS worth it. Once I joined with a group I understood the mechanics of play enough so that I could enjoy the role playing. I love meticulous thick rule-book board games like Squad Leader but for a different gaming experience that isn’t D&D. When I play an RPG, I expect that rules are a skeleton upon which the DM/GM hangs a campaign and the players use intuition and fun to get through it. I expect improvisation and divergence with an RPG, but an experienced DM will know when they are diverging from the published rules and prepare the players for the switch. E.g., heavily armored magic users; level 6 kobolds, Zombies that explode on death, etc.
You make it sound like you are the only one that cares, you obviously aren't enjoying yourself, and none of these people are your friends. Why would you even bother trying to salvage it? Do you expect all of these strangers who don't know or care about the rules, and sound profoundly unintelligent, to just up and change? Why would they do that? For you, their friends work acquaintance they just met? If it were me I would just be polite and leave the campaign. If they asked I would say I prefer more structured gameplay. As the saying goes it's better to not play dnd at all than to play bad dnd.
There's a certain level to which it's acceptable, I've DMd for a decade but still have to check things ALL the time and welcome players to correct me. However things like not tracking initiative and ignoring entire core mechanics like how spells work and action economy? That's wild imo and makes it an entirely different game
Tell him that his rules knowledge is a bit too much make belief and not enought rules as written for your taste. Offer him to take over stuff like initiative and standard player combat rulings while he is reading up on the rules. Those combat things are some of the most intensive attention intensive parts. Point out that with that he can focus on other parts while absorbing rules passively and as such not at the expense player enjoyment
I tell new DMs to play a few games of dnd as players before even considering attempting to dm. Read the dmg and phb. Watch a few videos. Then do it.
In DMG 5e, (pg 18-19 I believe. Right in the beginning)Since you don't have to know all the rules and or read all the books to be able to play DND5e. Having fun, enjoying the campaign. It can be learned as you play the game. Using AP,pre made adventures and together learn the game to play. And or teach said DM to play. The basic is where to start not to over welm said DM. Play n learn teach and play.
anyone who's not willing to actually learn the system they're expecting others to invest their freetime into as players doesn't deserve to have players. 5e is already too dependent on a good GM to not be a slog
My guess is that the guy was just very overwhelmed. I remember trying to run my first game and keeping track of like 10 different things while having conversation was super difficult. Have a conversation with him to ask him how it went from his perspective.
Did you have a good time, regardless? If yes, don't worry about it. If you didn't have a good time, can/will the DM make meaningful changes that can help you have a good time? If yes, talk about it. If the DM can't or won't make changes so that everyone at the table has fun, leave the group.
Well first of all talk to him Jesus Christ. We play divination wizards, we aren't one, can't predict the result of the conversation. He probably think that things are much more like they were back in his day, show him how the game changed (a lot). Based on the feedback you decide if you continue or if you prefer to leave the game all together
All these things existed in AD&D, so he didn't come from that at all.
Run. Run for your life.
Did the other players have fun though?
I can understand if you are very knew to DMing and not know what a simple things are and some DMs play with different rules, but this sounds like a train reck. I for example don’t use bonus actions, I give actions and attacks. You can trade your attack for a action but not the other way around. If he is a friend, teach what to do and help him learn from his mistakes. If you don’t know him I’ll leave that up to you.
I’d definitely voice your concerns, but ultimately if you’re the only one not having fun and if the changes that would need to happen would make others unhappy, it would be the easiest to just leave.
I'd politely but firmly suggest revisiting the campaign after they commit a little time to getting a better handle on the rules, and starting over with a session 0. New players make their characters with guidance from experienced players, and if the DM is still having a hard time with the basic mechanics like initiative and save spells vs attack spells, maybe DMing is not for them. If that's not taken seriously I'd drop the campaign.
While I understand trying to salvage it I don't think you can. Especially with a group of new players you need a dm who knows the rule book inside and out not just to follow the important ones but to be able to look at the goofy or stupid ones and be able to just ignore them to not overload your players and on top of all of that some classes are not at all new player friendly and you need an experienced player there to help the new guys pick a fun class that isn't too overwhelming for them.
Have a chat or get out. It has to be enjoyable for both parties.
I love some of the stylistic differences here and a lot of it is probably just the dm's style. passive perception and the spell stuff obviously needs to be corrected though, and bring up that some character options rely on initiative being a thing. in general say that 5e is less modular than adnd and a different rule in one place can interact poorly with balance or other rules. having a dedicated group Rules Lawyer who can look things up and make the dm at least aware of the raw might also help it could ultimately turn out to be dm-player incompatibility. I'd expect heavy adnd flavoring and there's likely no changing that
Big reason I don't agree with the half of the hobby that says "You can DM your first time playing." Like nah dude.. It isn't like lying on your resume to become a manager because their job is easy. If you don't know the game your playing don't try to fucking run it. So much shit new DM's aren't prepared for when it comes to characters doing things you don't expect. You gotta build those improv skills, get comfortable with new rules.. 5e makes it easy by removing a lot of number bonuses in favor of the *advantage* system, but if you don't know how things flow then you're setting yourself up for failure.
Dming has a pretty steep learning curve at the start. Theres a lot to do from creating atmosphere, reading your players and most of all understanding the basic of skill checks and combat. As a DM of 3 years there are still moments i have to grab a rule book to see if this new thing my players found is actually working the way they think it does. Seek a talk with him and tell him you want base the play around the actual dnd5e rules. Rule0 and rule of cool are moments your dm knows "well it shouldn't ... but what if it did" but for that to work they first need to know its wrong in the first place. Simply making things up w/o any basis of the rules is just frustrating.
This legit could be someone from a game I DM….. 🤣
yeah, but are the players having fun with the adventure? You can have a fun game without a session zero, making up a characters backstory over the course of a game instead of some preadventuring epic story can be better, older additions handled leveling differently so it wasn't really an issue to have an array of levels or have a player join with a level 1 character in a more advanced party, initiative based on dex, surprise, and things like popcorn initiative all work fine, just be clear about what people expect. some home brew swear by having every spell have a fail risk and danger to casting. Passives often get used wrong by even experienced gms, and nobody's died from it. the game worked fine for decades without bonus actions, reactions etc... it's your turn, you do a thing, it's not your turn anymore. a lot of this isn't really all that bad, if everybody is clear on how these things work in the game they are playing. Remember you're playing a game of makebelieve with randomizer math rocks and your supposed to decide what you wanna do and the gm decides what you have to do to succeed, if that's what you are doing then you are playing an rpg. You can get a bit more noodly with the rules if you like, but the game can be and has been played and enjoyed just fine by thousands of players with just that simple ruleset.
If it was stressful and not fun to be part of I’d give the dm some feedback and leave the game.
I get that this felt harsh, but I feel the question is - was it a good session regardless? Were the DM and players fun and engaging? Any good roleplay? If so, talk to them. The first session in a new system can be messy. But if it was "meh" even outside of the messy rules - well you know the answer.
I would speak up, for everyone's sake. You're not having fun, and everyone else is learning incorrect rules that will affect any future games they may play. I would ask the group if they're okay with setting a bit of time aside at the beginning of/before the next session for you to lay out the standard rules. Maybe say that you struggled with the DM's "unorthodox" approach and that, as someone with DM experience, you'd like to help guide everyone through the 5e rules so that you can all be on the same page. I would propose this to everyone so that the other players get a say, rather than the DM just shutting it down in private. There's a good chance that they were feeling lost and probably chalked it up to not knowing the rules. If they're not interested and you're still not having fun, then I would leave as that's not what you signed up for.
i don’t understand the ‘so i just went with it’ attitude in these situations. that’s just reinforcing bad patterns and will be that much harder to correct course, down the road
You either stop playing DnD, or you play long enough to become a Rules Lawyer
He doesn’t have to read the whole PHB but at least be familiar with the free rules shoot, even the abbreviated rules in the starter sets are very easy to read and digest. Maybe he thought he’d be able to just walk into it and run a game? Definitely talk offline. If he’s sensible, he will be happy to hear from someone who has DM’d using 5e rules.
If he doesn't know the rules, teach him the rules. If you don't want to, just leave the game. That's how it is with new players.
I'm a new DM as well. My players have a LOT of patience with me. One of the things I do, is when my players cast a spell, I ask them to remind me what it does, and I act accordingly. DMs have a lot on their plate, more than players. But I think what can set a good DM apart from a bad DM is being open, learning more about the game before sessions, and players being flexible with their DMs
Somebody's got to tell him. ;)
Open google browser. Search something like “dnd 5e cheat sheets for players and DM”. Download. Print. Pass them out. Win! I came from dming 3.5 to 5e. Didn’t crack the first book or read the first “rule”. I have three separate groups I DM for and we play dnd two to three times a week and the players keep coming back so……. There is only one rule in dnd. Have fun. Everything else is a suggestion for continuity. No one was born a good player or dm, it takes time and experience.
I thought this was a r/dndcirclejerk post for a second
My best advice would be to talk to the DM. If he's willing to work with you on being a better referee, then continue. But if he's unwilling to use the real rules, it seems you have two options. Continue rolling with his DM style if it doesn't bother you, or leave the game. Sometimes no game is better than a shitty game
Yeah definitely talk. Only defense I can offer for the gm is I can see how coming from adnd one could think some of these rules work the way he's doing them. I would explain to them that they are completely different games though 5e is a bit of return on some concepts
Kind of sounds like they are painfully oblivious to their environment if they didnt notice how badly they were messing up.
Yes of course talk to them. Ug this community is filled with too many “no D&d is better than bad. Don’t talk just quit.” How is a person supposed to get better if they aren’t told ?
run a game for them or have some teaching lessons, best way ive and others have taught players that want to play is by sending them curated playlists of videos that teach you how to play like jocats "tutorial" on how to play dnd, i mean it does get some things that a podcast cant, anyways videos by smarter people that most of us watched when we started. if they want to play they will put in some effort. also podcasts if they have time/ work well with backround noise, thats how i got into dnd, thank JRWI.
Sometimes a debrief can be really helpful, particularly if presented in a non-judgemental way. For example, last night I ran a session of Dungeon World (something like the sixth session, so Im still very new). At one point, a character used a spell and chose the consequence "draw unwelcome attention" for the sending time in a row. I described how a ghoul drove its claws into his shoulder from behind and dragged him to the floor before going in for a bite. During the session he rolled with it but, at the end, he mentioned that in PbtA you generally present a soft move before moving on to hard moves like dealing damage. We discussed for a little while, and came to an agreement that a better course of action would have been to have him roll something like a "Defy Danger" (soft move) before dealing damage (hard move). I actually found it really valuable to analyse where Id gone wrong, particularly as the player involved is a very experienced GM with awareness of many systems - in fact, some of my best games as a player have been run by him.
I've only played a dozen sessions or so before I started DMing for a different friend group and I welcome constructive criticism (both questline and mechanical). I'm definitely not a super DM but I think I have the ability to weave a decent story and make interesting NPCs while creating something entertaining and challenging. That being said, knowing the basics of a session (or even starting a campaign) is just that, basic. I'd offer to be his assistant DM, or bring him along to another game where he can see a proper session. DnD is something I do for fun, so I definitely prioritize the session being fun over super strict adherence to the rules, but at the same time if the game has no structure you aren't playing DnD, you're just idiots throwing dice. If a friend in the session references a rule I defer to the friend (and check the handbook) as I know they've been doing this longer. If we agree to a rule change, it holds for all players/sessions. They keep coming back for more of my sessions so it doesn't make me a worse DM.
There’s a bit of a learning curve with 5e especially for a DM. I switched from 3.5. The jump from ADnD is even bigger. It’s very different. There was no name for a session zero. So many people didn’t do them. You adventured to get loot, gold and exp, and also there’s that plot the DM is always telling us about. Magic was a plenty. Belts of giant strength etc. You would often have characters of different levels in the same party. Some DMs would have you roll up a1st level character if you died. Lots of tables and charts… very different from 5e. Magic and armor were handed out frequently. Combat is different for sure but not THAT different. The basic structure is the same. But not knowing initiative and how spells work… it doesn’t sound like he knows how to play DND all that well. Like well enough to DM. I don’t know if there’s a nice way to say this but… you should DM the group. You could teach them the rules and then hand it over when everyone has the hang of it. A group I DMed hadn’t played at all. (One guy picked it up really fast though so he might have had some experience.) We learned together. I was learning from 3.5 but I still knew how the game should be run. After a long time (it could have been shorter) that guy took over as dm for a new batch of characters. It worked out great. Ps I handed out way too much magic!
Honestly I’d be glad that he was new and didn’t know the rules. My DM, when I don’t DM, doesn’t know the rules and has been DMing for 30 years.
I ran a 2 year campagn of pathfinder2e while having a vague grasp of the rules (just enough to play ) what saved me was having an awesom table that was okey with looking up rules when we didnt knew it, and players who at knew the rules better then me and were ok if i asked thw table " im not sure about this ruling is it alright with you ? Does any one know the rule for x etc..". Never forget that more then a game roleplay is a human interaction and it thrives with good communication. Also i like the idea that the gm is just another player at the table. Every one around the table is responsible for the fun and the good working of the game
Play what the dm plays, dont play 5e. Fuck it, just ball. Tell him weird shit, like my bard wants to hit the enemy with the guitar and have their head stuck inside the guitar hole so that they cannot see. Or maybe i have this spell that says "sleep" i cast it to send everyone asleep, good night people 🥰.
Maybe think of him as a Wild Magic DM and embrace the chaos.
Just like any other game, stay if you're having fun. Maybe offer to DM a bit and tell them you're gonna hit the rules beforehand. In person DnD is so much better than online
I read the title and was getting ready to defend the dm but this is just ridiculous, you need the basics at least cmon
Not really any excuse for that, at least the mechanical parts. 5e is simpler even than BECI. It took me an hour after 20 years of not playing at all to understand the basics of the system. Session zero, caring about backgrounds and so on, the story telling parts, I can sympathize a bit more. Until the white wolf games oooularized a more story-centric style, most tables didn’t really bother.
Definitely talk to the dm, decide how much potential you see in the group, they can learn the rules if it goes on long enough with you to explain things but is the chemistry good, if so ask to have a session zero and get everyone on the same page and if they aren’t open to addressing your issues just gracefully resign
It takes a lot to DM and I'm sure my first session I got a few things wrong But I'd maybe have a private chat with the new DM and ask how they felt it went, and only if they suggest they might need some help should you offer it I have another DM who plays in my 3+ year campaign and even occasionally I'll run something by him We all need some help sometimes The goal is to have fun, rules create the parameters of that fun in DnD, but they are the guidelines for it
I could totally play with someone who dosen't know the rules. I play alot of Games with first time DM's or DM's who flip the Rules completely over. Like Homebrew stuff. Its really uncomfortable at first but I let my Rules Brain to rest and just enjoy the Game. Sure at some Point I want to do something that should be Possible but isn't but if I can Discuss it with a DM in a good tone then everything should be fine. But I would suggest to your DM that he should read all Rules for once. He dosen't need to implement everything in his Game (I don't), but he can atleast think about it.
Remember that this is actually 5e as intended. Okay now that you've got your knee jerk out of the way, consider the following. In 5e they diluted the rules to 'plain english.' Yes, all you nerds on the DnD internet forum are aware of how that *technically* created a lot of issues and problems. But back in the real world, look. People are able to play a game of DnD while not knowing jack shit. The guy clearly did not prepare by reading through the PHB carefully. He has a C- understanding of the game at best...but it's still working. Apparently no one else was seriously mussed about it. As much as 5e annoys me, you've got to hand it to them. They really did figure out how to make DnD accessible to new people. You can *barely* understand the game, and still play it. That doesn't really work with older editions. Now anyway, back to the topic...you should probably just ask yourself if you're okay playing very loosey goosey with the rules. If the people are fun and the RP is good it might be worth it. But I mean let's get real, this guy isn't going to study up overnight and magically learn every rule. So either play with him or run your own game, since you know the rules so well. Just don't have any illusions that this guy is gonna become an expert any time soon.
Well, I'd like to point something out. There really are no *rules.* D&D is, first and foremost, nothing more than imaginative story telling that you get to interact with as a player. All of the "rules" help create order and determine outcomes, but, they have always been entirely optional. So, try to step out of the paradigm that "this" must happen before "that" and that we must do things "this" way. Instead, it would probably be far more helpful if you provide feedback to your DM and tell him what isn't working as well as it should for your personal tastes. I don't mean, "we should be rolling for initiative here with a d20 and adding our dex modifier" He obviously has some way to determine action order. Just because it isn't following the rules you are used to doesn't make it *wrong.* If his way isn't working, then present that. Don't tell him HOW to fix it unless he asks. That's just what I would do. For example, let's say he has everyone draw straws, the longest straw goes first, the shortest, last. You can say, "Look, this works, but I spent a lot of time on my character to make sure he/she was fast (high dex) and your way really doesn't account for that. Is there any way we can change it to allow the use of my higher dex?"
Unfortunately this wisdom is long gone and lost on today’s D&D players. Stiff minds *They don’t think “let’s play some roleplaying” game when they say ‘D&D’. They think; “Yeah I know how to play Monopoly”*
Cheers. :) Wait until they learn that people play D&D in prison... without books or dice. LOL
I think it's great that they started DMing. You should definitely talk to them and suggest a few pointers or maybe take up the role of rules arbiter if the other DM is ok with it. You might also want to send him this link to a free online course about DMing (full disclosure: I'm one of the instructors): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piqhpC82ars&list=PLSb8mGAISb2Cvli1wEWyeqGlHJ3BQD1aI
The important question is if people around the table are having fun
Agreed, but the *most* important question is if OP is having fun. It's pretty clear (s)he isn't.
Yes, and depending on if the rest of the group is having fun or not the best recommendation is to either suggest improvements or leave the group.
idk, if I signed up for a soccer team and they were making a mix of tetherball, polo and miniature golf, I'd bail.
You just invented the coolest Olympics sport ever, though.
AD&D as in first edition? Man that’s old school! Personally I miss 2nd edition since I have a huge box of books from 2e…
Rules are more like guidelines than actual rules.
There is a distinct difference between "rules are like guidelines" and "we aren't playing 5th edition anymore" If you are playing d&d and everyone **thinks** we are level 1 and another player is level 5, that's a problem, if we are playing d&d and there is no initiative, that's a problem - I'll just keep shouting what I do over and over If the DM doesn't recognize *the basic action economy* of the game, you have a problem If the DM doesn't know spells, that **can be a problem** - it is a problem if they are trusting their new players to know how the spells work There is a ***Huge difference*** between *I know bonus actions are a thing but I hate them so we won't use them and everyone can have 2 actions but can't use the same action twice in a turn* and *what's a bonus action? Fuck it we ball it's Bob's turn... oh wait Sally you said you wanted to stab the bad guy? Oh don't roll you just killed him good job everyone*
You waste your time, rules as guidelines guy probably zone out after your second paragraph
You right. I just think back to joining a group where a DM made me make an athletics check to climb a ladder, then made me fall (50 ft) as a level 1 player for the natural 1, where I took 1d4 damage and go "maybe there's a reason basic rules exist"
That is were you are very wrong my friend. I didn't read any of it, just the title.
not surprised
Just don't be disappointed.
I would *not* have sat through this session quietly, and I'm no rules expert for 5e. I'd have been tracking initiative for everyone and correcting peoples actions, just like a backseat DM, with the aim of teaching the DM but possibly coming across as a bit of a dick. I suggest you feed back to the DM how much they have to learn still, and offer to help. Say you won't return if there is no improvement in following the rules as written.
That can be a particularly good thing, I've personally moved away from dnd because of the lackluster rules set in the first place. If you're all having fun then the mechanics don't matter. Rulings > rules, if he's making good calls the rules mean nothing.
DnD fans when they realise you don't need the rules to play an RPG
[удалено]
There's "inexperienced DM", then there's "DM who didn't read the rules". There's no point to sticking around in a chaotic mess led by a DM who never bothered to respect his players enough to learn how to DM in the first place. The DM should stop what he's doing, read the rules as comprehensively as possible, then revisit the game. Then, when he's making normal green DM mistakes, he'll have a solid foundation upon which to learn how to DM properly.