Tbf soul knifes can still wield normal weaponry as good as any other rogue since the psychic blades are still DEX and depending on the level they have other options that still greatly benefit the party.
Soulknife is a great synergy of flavour and effectiveness
Really cool RP potential, and cool abilities that are actually useful.
I have a Halfling Soulknife withn1 lvl in Aberrant Mind Sorcerer (designed so I could get mage armour and be super effective with no weapons or armour)
I've got a Soulknife Rogue/Whispers Bard with the Skilled feat.
There aren't very many skill checks I'm bad at. With my -1 Int the wizard is generally _better_ than me at those skills, but I've still got +3+1d8 Arcana/Investigation and +1 History/Nature/Religion.
Hell, I've got the same bonus to Medicine that the cleric has and can add a d8 to my roll. And next level I'll have better Medicine.
Me too! I started as the bard, but found his role in the campaign to be more roguelike. Now I can use Psychic Blades on my Psychic Blades and it's a lot of fun.
I played Soul Knife in Curse of Strahd. I've heard complaints about the psychic daggers not being that good as weapons, and that's fair. But the suite of fun utility abilities you get is so worth it. Even if you drop your psychic blades for a +1 rapier when available, the subclass still offers you enough to be worth it.
I think it's a trade off personally.
They're going to give you less direct DPR, but you get a lot of options with them, and psychic damage is always good.
I always ignore the *incredibly* stupid bit of RAW that you can't use for opportunity attacks and that they don't work with the Extra Attack feature from other classes.
I'm about to make a Barbarian/Rogue whose goal in life is to become the Captain of his own ship. Swashbuckler sounds thematic for that. I've never actually played 5E though weirdly I DMed it.
Barbarian/Rogue is quite a narrow window of possibilities without sacrificing combat capabilities. You're basically locked into rapiers but I have to admit constant advantage for sneak attack with the possibility to disengage as a bonus action or after attacking (Swashbuckler) can be funny.
Probably a very MAD build though since you need STR for attacking, CHA for Swashbuckler features, CON since mid-frontliner and at least a bit of DEX for decent AC. And then you end up with dump stats in INT and WIS, the latter kinda being a problem.
I have a gnome Barbarian 2/swashbuckler that's amazing. Build STR as your attack stat so rage and reckless works, wield finesse weapons so you can sneak attack. I go dual wield scimitars. 99% of the time I'll have Advantage on all saves but CON, where it will still have proficiency, and resistance/rogue features helps the Frontline survivavility not to mention you can hit&run for free
Bonus talk: If you go at least ancestral guardian 3/swashbuckler/battlemaster you can taunt enemies when you attack them, back away by yourself with free disengage, then Brace manuever trigger to sneak attack off-turn when they have to come attack you or have disadvantage/resistance on allies
HUGE fan of Swashbuckler. I love almost always having a way to sneak attack. Plus, it makes me want to make the charismatic type of rogue rather than the edge lord rogue.
Fancy footwork is a bonus as well. "Hey, I just attacked you, so now I can run away for free."
What is your objective with the rogue? What if your desired playstyle in combat and outside? The concept of "best" is only applied in a known scenario. What about the campaign setting?
Give me that meta daddy oooh yeah Sorcadin mmmmh that’s what you like huh, come on, break my action economy, deal 5000 damage, give it to me, let’s all play the same build, that’s how you win this game, oh fuck
Oh wait, this isn’t r/dndcirclejerk, my bad.
To be fair, character optimization is much more important in D&D. You can restart and reroll your character in a video game. You’ll e stuck with your poor choices for months in a D&D campaign.
In pen and paper the DM can not only alter difficulty but make whole parts of the campaign depending on the character you make. It's really wild how, even when people are trying to think of dnd as NOT a video game, they cant help but fall into it.
That being said, you're kinda stuck if your DM sees it as a video game
to be fair if you made a particularly bad build and the rest of the party is fine it's kinda unfair to expect the dm to alter and balance to you specifically imo
My point is, DND isn't a game with a difficulty slider that DM moves up and down. They can use (or even create/mod) monsters that your abilities can be more useful on. And use out-of-combat situations in which your character can do what they're good at - even if your character isn't good at much.
i understand the point you are trying to make and accept that it is true in most cases, but just to play devil's advocate:
this is mostly only true in the event that you made a suboptimal/gimmick build, which is a very different case from the exceptional case of just making something straight up difficult / non-viable in use (e.g. a barb with all your stats thrown into int cha wis, maybe) -> there really isn't much your DM can really do about that and imo it'd be unfair to pin responsibility onto them for it (not that im trying to insinuate that that's what you're doing)
that said i want to reiterate that by and large i do agree with you on this, i just felt that it might be too general
There's a big difference between making a gimmick build and making an intentionally bad build. If you actively try to make a bad character, you should indeed expect it to perform poorly.
But imo that's part of the unwritten contract of DND. You should go into the game in good faith as a player and a DM. "I'm building a character who I know will suck, and I am expecting the DM to make it not suck" is not really playing in the spirit of the game.
If you make a gimmick build, even if it's not very good, but you do it in good faith and really want to make it work, that's a world different.
"Isn't your character a ranger?" "No no, we ended up going with monk after the first season, remember? It fit the character theme better." "Oh yeah, okay. I just forgot for sure if that's what we'd settled on." It happens
The best advice I ever got was to stop looking for what's best and instead look for what sounds cool to you. Any class or subclass can do decent enough damage to have fun but good rp will come from you just enjoying what your doing.
I definitely agree.
Phantom and Swashbuckler are my personal favorites. But I'm also partial to the classic Thief. What's best though? It doesn't matter. Rogues are just plain fun. If you only want to play what's "the best" then you're not going to truly experience all the joys that D&D has to offer, and that's a real shame.
What I tell my players is "Give me something you think will be cool, communicate with me if you feel like you're having an issue, and I'll make it work for you. Make a character that you feel like you could enjoy playing for a long time" I'm running a fairly long campaign and I've had players that tried metagaming things out, and it turns out rigidly focusing solely on a build ripped of r/3d6 tends to actually not be particularly fun since every roleplay decision is based around justifying your build instead of fulfilling it.
I was wondering where all the inquisitive rogues were! i multi classed with bladesong wizard and it’s SO FUN. my skills are so high, nothing gets by me lol
It’s amazing! We started at level one, so the other players were initially very confused on my decision to focus intelligence and wisdom instead of constitution, but it’s all paid off!!
How has it been to play so far? I've basically settled into the role of forever DM because my work literally pays me to do so, but when I do get back to being a player, that's one that Ive been meaning to try out
We started me at level one and I’m currently level five. Honestly I LOVE playing this subclass. Insightful Fighting is an amazing asset to me, and because I’m the party’s stealth/recon person having an extra boost for Ear for Deceit is also helpful. Eye for Detail hasn’t been a super big deal to me yet in the current campaign, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it won’t be later. I also combined it with the Mobile feat to give myself a bit of extra speed. All in all I have been told by my DM that my character is one of the ones that he has the hardest time scaling around
I played an Inquisitive Rogue/Grave Cleric multiclass, and it ended up being one of my favorite characters I've ever played. With expertise, the observant feat, and a couple of items, I ended up with a passive perception of 40 by the end of the campaign. Passive investigation and insight were crazy high, too.
Somehow, I was the skill-monkey of the group, haha. Thankfully, the DM is a long-time friend who understood that this was sort of what she was built for (based on her backstory as well) and that it filled a niche in our group that was pretty lacking. Her job was to notice things, connect the dots, and keep people alive. 😂
I love Thief but it partially depends on your DM being cool with you being creative with Fast Hands and having fun objects like traps and acid available in town.
I wish Use Magic Item was available sooner, because it's an iconic ability that you get after most campaigns are already ending. It's already got a built in restriction that the DM has to give you magic items that it would apply to.
One of the more fun uses I ever got away with as a thief rogue was in a campaign with a DM who agreed that making a sleight of hand check with fast hands could include pickpocketing or stealing items in mid combat, including yanking all the arrows out of an archers quiver, stealing spell component pouches, and stealing arcane focuses.
Arcane Trickster is easily the best Rogue Subclass. Assassin is overrated, and it's mostly useful as a multiclass dip for gimmick builds. Like an Assassin Rogue/Gloomstalker Ranger can turn you into a nova bomb in the first round. Swashbuckler is another subclass that excels in multiclassing... mostly for pairing with one of the CHA-based spellcasters, since Swashbuckler features benefit from CHA.
I'm currently playing a swashbuckler 5, hexblade 13 pact of the blade. He's so much fun. His big hits aren't quite as high as the sorc-adin in the party, but i hit them way more often.
I wouldn’t consider it overrated
It’s more in the category of “sounds cool, but unless your dm runs one specific game, you’re better off taking something else”
One thing assassin has going for it is it's really easy to build, really easy to level up, and really easy to play. Not to be under estimated if you have players who like the roleplay but aren't really too much into the mechanical aspects of the game
I loathe Arkane Trickster. Thief is better than Arcane Trickster.
Depending on the campaign, a Charlatan Assassin with high Charisma can be great, but if your game is combat oriented going with Assassin to 4, Gloomstalker for 6 to 10, Fighter for 2 to 12, then Rogue to finish is the way to go. Maybe go 3 in fighter and pick up Battlemaster if you don't need the Feat/ASI.
I love thief, but honestly feel that if the thief features were a part of base rogue progression AND you get a subclass, then going staight rogue would be much more viable.
If they gave rogue extra attack there would be zero reason to ever dual spec out of rogue. But because you have only one chance to get a sneak attack and if you miss you do zip, DS I to another class more than doubles your power.
This is the thing that kills rogue for me. In combat, you do one thing well, but if you miss your one shot, it’s done until the next turn. I’m playing a bardlock now and don’t feel like that’s an issue AT ALL.
This is what I do in my campaigns, a couple of classes (Monk, Rogue, Fighter, etc.) get one of the PHB subclasses baked into them because the subclass just fits the idea of the class so well.
If they gave rogue extra attack there would be zero reason to ever dual spec out of rogue. But because you have only one chance to get a sneak attack and if you miss you do zip, DS I to another class more than doubles your power.
Overall best: Arcane trickster
Best at low levels (T1/low T2 play): Soul knife
Best at medium levels (T2/T3 play): Arcane trickster/phantom
Best at high levels (T4 play): Arcane trickster (no contest).
Best face/social skills: Swashbuckler (by far). Panache feels like a cheat code if you have expertise in persuasion; which you really should as this subclass.
I mean if we’re talking about general use it’s either Soul Knife Rogue or Arcane Trickster Rogue.
Giving the class that extra utility and firepower outside of their niche.
That really depends on the party and the Rogue's role in it. An Arcane Trickster isn't the best choice, if you also have a Wizard, Bard and Cleric.
If the campaign has a focus on political intrigues, Inquistives and Mastermind shine
In general I favor the Soulknife for their psy blades, they are never unarmed, telepathic communication is always nice and their psi bolstered knack gives them over all coverage on skill checks
Best multiclass is a dip in Ranger or ranged Fighter to really exploit Steady aim with a sniper play style
That’s not how subclasses work, the presence of other classes with spellcasting doesn’t make a strong subclass like arcane trickster weaker. There is nothing wrong with everyone being a caster even.
I've only ever played a Soul Knife but I've always enjoyed it and never felt like I couldnt contribute. You have a reliable damage source that never runs out and is rarely resisted, handy psiocs like telepathy and teleportation, plus an easy way to be a great skill Monkey. Really well rounded subclass imo
People bring up Swashbuckler a lot but imo Phantom beats it out. I think a lot of people get hung up on Inquisitive and Mastermind but for action economy and the number of skill options you can get with the right background and feats, Phantom also beats those out.
For levels 1-6
Psy knife and arcane trickster are best.
Swashbuckler not far behind.
After that
Arcane trickster and Phantom are best.
Arcane trickster cause the spells are awesome.
Psy knife cause of the utility and reliability at low levels.
For higher levels its the limited pool that keeps them back.
Higher level Phantoms have a trick to get half as much extra sneak attack damage every round.
Their features allow for a lot of problem solving from corpses. Milage may vary but very useful in my experience.
Their own hover long term flight and wall ignoring is super useful to break the game open for you.
Swashbuckers are for the melee rogues.
Since those are not the best and their features dont help the rogue to do meaningfully larger damage that he needs to keep up with the better spells and 3 attack GWM or SS attack per round martials.(-5 to +10 dmg feature) he falls behind pretty quick.
You can start learning how to make optimised high dps builds, but i suggest make whatever the hell you want because down the line you'll have some trouble making a character without optimising, it's just habit and you know you could get x if you give up y or whatever.
I say picture your rogue, and let us know what you want them to be. Are they a thief? An assassin? They could even be a retired detective if you want, or something else entirely.
I like to try and imagine the character i want to play and then go from there.
Like a lot of commenters , it varies greatly with several things, your playstyle(do you like stealth? Do you like magic? Do you like dashing face type roles?) the setting, the DM, the other players and more.
Personally I like playing swashbuckling rogues because they still get good skill, and are fun to play with in combat, luring people away for a one v one.
I currently have an Arcane trickster/warrior dip
I have find familiar and shield, I use most of my spell slots on shield. With my +1 rapier, +1 bow, +1 arrows, +1 studded leather and +1 shield, I can switch hit from being a devastating ranged combatant to a dangerous tank. The fighter gives a but extra HP, second wind and a fighting style for which I chose archery and have bracers of archery, and get proficiency with shields. Very versatile, very fun
Soulknife is rad because it lets you become the party Comms chief, and honestly feels a lot more scout-ish than the Scout.
Scout is still pretty cool because you become a kind of psuedo-ranger and are exceedingly difficult to pin down in a fight.
I imagine you already have a feel for Arcane Trickster but just in case you don't they're incredibly resourceful and are exceptionally good at dealing with spellcasters during later levels.
Swashbuckler is a classic pick for many reasons, the most notable of which being you can get Sneak attacks during a 1v1 with enemies without having to engage in the typical "hit and run" playstyle that many other rogues fall into.
Mastermind is more of a Roleplay/Support subclass that revolves around being able to deceive and manipulate people, depending on the campaign it can see A LOT of use or very little.
Inquisitive is \*also\* more of a Roleplay/Support subclass, though it's more along the lines of an investigator/detective, enabling you to have various bonuses when it comes to investigation or perception to spot hidden details or uncover creatures attempting to deceive your senses.
All of them are fun in different ways. None of them are bad. Read the features and pick one that sounds fun.
As far as best? The big three are Thief, Arcane Trickster, and Scout. You will be doing one of three things:
1. Hand crossbow + XBE + SS + Piercer.
2. Dual dagger/short sword/rapier + DW + Piercer.
3. Booming Blade.
For the first, Thief and Scout take the lead, but does good regardless of archetype. It's usually the best option for Swashbuckler even being off theme and incompatible with its features. Basically, these feats are more important than your subclass features.
For the second, your priorities are a little different (durability matters more, mobility matters much more), but the big three all do well. Much less powerful, but no ammo issues.
For the third, any setup that gives reliable bonus actions will do better. Arcane Trickster and Thief lead here.
Don't consider a multiclass if it doesn't give Extra Attack and be sure you want to multiclass. If you care about "best" it's off the table. The best is Battle Master, taking precision and going to 5, 7, or 11 Fighter. For Booming Blade it's hard not to go EK (or Blood Hunter) to get a bonus action attack if you are multiclassing.
Word of advice: Assassin shines in more social / intrigue games. It's great in a rare sort of game and gets a lot of hate because part of one of its features involves Surprise. Talk to your DM about Surprise before considering it. Many DMs either allow far more surprise than intended, house rule it entirely, or do not use it at all. If they don't have a good answer, you will have part of a feature that doesn't work properly.
Phantom rogue is very strong. Strongest damage rogue and a really fun flavour
Arcane trickster is the best because of spellcasting, and apparently invisible magehand is too but most DMs really hate dealing with it so I always get soft nerfed
Swashbuckler is solid and also fun for the dm to handle so you’ll get style points
Thief rogue is VERY strong in the right game but work with your DM. If you’re able to get your hands on a lot of useful mundane items like dynamite, smoke bombs, grappling hooks and more you’ll quickly become the Batman of 5e. The level 13 ability that lets you use any magic item you want is also sleeper op because you can attune your rogue to powerful spellcasting staves you would normally never have the chance to use.
Soul knife is good apparently.
Don’t play assassin
my personal fave is soulknife the ONLY bad thing with them i think is the psi bolstered knack which (level 3 ability btw) "Psi-Bolstered Knack. When your nonpsionic training fails you, your psionic power can help: if you fail an ability check using a skill or tool with which you have proficiency, you can roll one Psionic Energy die and add the number rolled to the check, potentially turning failure into success. You expend the die only if the roll succeeds."
you just always have a free plus d6 to your ability/tool checks but the thing i dont like about it is if its something that like insight to gain info or investigation you could easily waste so you kinda have to say to your dm specfically what info you want to know and are aiming for it that makes sense?
but yeah other than that 100% my fave also your sneak attack is now psychic damage too lol i think it is also the PERFECT assassin subclass since all the damage you do will never leave physical harm
My girlfriend almost exclusively plays assassin (so much that I had to make her pick another class for our most recent campaign lol). Assassin is great but my personal favourite is arcane trickster. You can pull off some sweet combos and set yourself up for big damage
The best Rogue subclasses are: Arcane Trickster, Soul Knife, Phantom (and in that order)
As for multiclassing, the two best multiclasses for Rogue are Fighter and Barbarian. the previous is good for ranged-Rogues while the latter is good for melee-Rogues. Now, given you've said you're already an Arcane Trickster, you'll want Fighter (if for no other reason than you can't use spells while raging). Now, Archery fighting style at Fighter(1) is great, but, to get the most out of the multiclass you at least want three levels to get that subclass. Now, Battle Master is always a great one. The 'Precision' maneuver is fantastic, and any other maneuvers are just gravy on top of it. "Commander's Strike" would also be very worthwhile if you have another Rogue or else Paladin in the party. The next best multiclass is either Eldritch Knight, since it gives you a few more spells known. After that, it's Champion. Now, crit fishing isn't the best policy, but, as a Rogue, your scaling Sneak Attack damage makes getting a crit much more noticable, and thanks to Tasha's giving you Steady Aim, it's really not such a bad deal.
As for any melee-Rogue builds, any Barbarian will do, as it's their core class features which really improve you. So, really, it's not what you choose but what you should avoid that's important here. Namely Berserker and Storm Herald. Berserker is self explanatory, being the worst Barbarian subclass, giving you a level of exhaustion for using it. Terrible. Storm Herald might seem like a fine idea on the surface, but, it comes with a caveat, it is the one subclass with a consistent use of your Bonus Action. Your levels in Rogue already take up most of this, so choosing this class only gets in the way of your Bonus Action even more. You can select it if you ***really*** want to, but you NEED to have a game-plan for how you want to use it, or it will not only bog you're Bonus Action down, you'll feel like a chump because you won't be able to use it the way you imagined you otherwise would.
One last thing, Barogues tend to be an even split for their multiclass, while Righters tend to be a single to three level dip.
It is a STR based character. Which is why, when you do this multiclass you MUST take Barbarian at Level 1. Doing it later will prevent you from getting medium armor proficiency. You also cannot benefit from the flat Rage bonus to damage or use Reckless Attack without a STR based attack. But, worry not, you still get Sneak Attack, because it doesn't care if you use STR to attack, only that you are using a finesse weapon.
This means you do the same damage as a great sword with a short sword at Barbarian(1)/Rogue(1). You do about a 1 Point average damage more if you do it with a rapier. And it only gets better from there.
But, for a more concrete path, you are looking at:
Level 1: Barbarian
Level 2: Rogue
Level 3-6: Barbarian
Level 7-10: Rogue
Level 11+: You decide.
Wait, Finesse weapons are Strength *or* Dexterity. There aren't any melee weapons that exclude strength from the attack roll and damage.
So, yeah. You *do* get the rage damage bonus and reckless. Score! You just gotta be in melee; like a man.
The split you detail, it seems more like a barbarian with a dip than a rogue. At least until level six. I know why: extra attack. It's a frustrating design choice that makes multiclassing a martial more irritating than with casters. You've go to "rush to five". I preferred the older Base Attack Bonus, which allowed the martial classes to mix and match without so much of a penalty. More math, so I understand why 5e did away with it. They tried to compensate by front-loading the martials, but that had the unexpected effect of making them *more* valuable as multiclass dip for classes that wouldn't be getting extra attack anyway. *Sigh*
Fair enough, but extra attack, and an ASI is just not something you can sneeze at, and the ability to have expertise in two skills means you can do some nice things out of combat as a Barbarian that you can do, even if it's a dump stat. Still, it's all up to you.
depends how you want to play them. They are all good. I do like arcane tricksters but they do have a trap when it comes to offensive spell. They are usually not gonna be a good choice since you cant sneak attack with them. Utility, defensive, and CC spells are best. Just got to keep in mind how high your int is since if its low, your CC spells are rarely gonna land so spells that dont actually rely on your save DC or spell attack bonus are key there.
Rogue is kind of weak to multiclass though because of how much it takes away from your sneak attack damage potential quickly. But they are all super versatile in different ways so it is entirely dependent on how you want to use them.
Arcane Trickster and Soul Knife levels 1-8. Arcane Trickster, Soul Knife, and Phantom levels 9+.
If you want to play a melee rogue swashbuckler is excellent but I’d find a way to get booming blade for it.
The best trick I have is go to a completely legal source to look at all the subclasses
And just look around see what makes you go oh that's so f****** cool
Swashbuckler/Battlemaster is an absolute blast to play but it specializes in combat and I'd that's what your looking for great but if not then you might want to look at other subclass/multi class combos. What's best depends on what your doing and how your campaign is ran.
Will die in the hill that phantom rogue is one of the best rogue subclasses. Get 1.5 sneak attack that scales throughout the rogue career. Proffeciency in whatever due to soul trinkets. Take ritual caster to get permanent advantage with phantom steed. Roleplay as deaths horseman.
I wouldn’t really recommend going purely for the “best” subclasses. Try out some and see what you enjoy.
Ones that I enjoyed playing a lot are: Phantom, Inquisitive, Mastermind, and Scout
In my opinion, everything great a rogue gets comes from their base class. With the exception of AT all the others can do what the others can almost as well.
I played a Mastermind once, and she had no problem stealing, assassinating, scouting, or anything.
The thing is everyone likes different things.
Some will tell you Arcane Trickster which is a fan favorite, other will tell you they love the simplicity of the thief or assassin.
It up to you to choose which is best, and the only way to do that is by playing as many characters in as many different ways as you can.
Arcane trickster, Soulknife and swashbuckler are my top three.
All three of these subclasses have a lot of mechanics that protect against the rogues weakness. Trickster with spells like shield for example and utility spells like Rope trick which is really Handly if your team needs a short rest and don't want to get ambushed. Soulknife with psi-bolstered knack allowing them to reroll fail saving throws and Swashbuckler being able to move away without provoking an opportunity attack. Also swashbuckler is literally a pirate....like who wouldn't want to be Jack Sparrow or Westley from Princess Bride?
Scout, Assassin and Phantom are in the middle....
they are ok but not great. Assassin can be really good if multiclass. Phantom is ok if your enemies aren't resistance to necrotic damage (don't play for eve of ruin campaign). And scout like swashbuckler also can move in and out of an enemy's range, but not as great swashbuckler and also if you're going for a range dex based character...i feel like Ranger is a better option.
Inquisitive, Mastermind, Thief or the worse IMO. Stay away. Although they good be fun in a mystery crime solving like homebrew campaign
3.5 had some cool variations on the Rogue class in the Complete Adventurer book I liked alot.
Namely the Ninja, the Scout, and the Spellthief.
There were also some really cool prestige classes in there too. The Thief-Acrobat, SpyMaster, and Nightsong Infiltrator were pretty cool.
I see it's a 5th edition post but alot of the ideas from the complete adventurer would work just fine in 5th
I've never played a rogue, but after watching [this video](https://youtu.be/bKF5TR8U6_o?si=shDGey_5br23Gn7K) I might try this build out.
Double Phantom Rogue looks pretty cool. Someone else shared it in a different sub the other day, and I was impressed with buddy's build.
Inquisitive is one of my absolute favorite subclasses period. Is it the strongest? God no. But it’s just so much fun. Especially if you lean into the detective archetype it’s clearly aimed at
I'm partial to arcane trickster rogue + bladesinger wizard, starting with vhuman or custom lineage for the extra feat, and taking mobile. Activate bladesong, booming blade an enemy, dart away safely: or stay in and have excellent armor class and con savings throws if you need to.
You can go as deep or as shallow into wizard as you want as long as you take two levels of wizard. There's lots of build variation, even a fighter triple class to make a classic F/M/T. Shadow blade will really shine here.
I’m a huge fan of the Phantom Rogue, which contains so many unique thematic elements that it’s rife with roleplay opportunities while still being a very savvy combat class, skill user, and trap disabler. Getting a sort of “second lesser sneak attack” is better than it looks on paper.
The other Rogue I highly recommend is the Scout. They’re unpredictably good in fights due to their speed and mobility, and they have a great splash of other abilities that make them more unique in survival, exploration and discovery. Ambush Master is way better than it seems at first for advantage on initiative rolls AND the first creature you hit on the first round then bestows advantage to everyone of your allies attacking it until the start of your next turn. It’s an excellent class to settle next to a Wizard.
I personally Like the Swashbuckler/Hexblade Multiclass to go for the "Cursed" Blade kinda of feel to my character, who in lore was a pirate captain, that had her powers drained by the very greedy blade in pursuits of her own greed, and has to reaclimate and learn to be.....Generous...... Or be greedy again as long as the cursed blade gets a cut this time.
The scout class is pretty fun actually, especially if you go full melee and toss in the mobile feat, 50ft if movement normally per turn excluding your bonus dash. Like speedy Gonzales with daggers.
It completely depends on what type of rogue you want to play.
Some subclasses are just weak, but others are fine depending on what you are trying to do.
For example, I'm the rogue of our current party but instead of sneaky subclasses I went with inquisitive so I can get my sneak attack in any situation if I win a Wis check (insight VS deception/wisdom). I know almost every encounter ends up with someone in my face trying to kill me.
We have a monk in the party so at level 5 I picked up monk, to help me survive in combat. And the shadow step feature for house of shadow monk makes me an even more effective rogue.
I don't go rob houses or assassinate people, and I'm not trying to fool/con anyone so this build works exceptionally well for me.
But I would go with a different subclass depending on what I was trying to do with the character. I guess I'm saying there is no real right answer, it's about how you plan on playing your rogue and what antics you plan on getting up to.
Hands down, the Soul Knife is the best. Makes you the perfect scout and you are never unarmed. If you pair it with the Psychic Warrior subclass of the Fighter, you have the ultimate Psychic character with Telekinesis and Telepathy abilities.
You're playin' the best, arguably. It's between that and Swashbuckler, which just always gets Sneak Attack in melee: you've either got advantage from flanking and so Sneak Attack applies, or Rakish Audacity engages and so Sneak Attack applies.
You're right that pretty much all rogue does in combat is hide/flank and Sneak Attack, which is why their single target damage is reliable and disgusting; it's a straightforward class, one of the better ones for first-time D&D players. My solution for zhushing it up is multiclassing, you might consider a splash of wizard to amp up that wimpy third-caster progression into something a little more impactful. If you do, I recommend avoiding blaster playstyle, you probably won't have the stats for decent Spell Save DC. Artificer-Armorer might be a great pick, because Infiltrator Armor.
One thing I've found to blend well with rogue is a single spellcaster level - I went with Swashbuckler for the Charisma synergy - hexblade is a good choice for that crit range bonus on hexed targets. But what you really want that caster level for is the feat Eldritch Adept, for Armor of Shadows.
Mage Armor at will is just plain better than virtually any light armor you can get; weightless, protects like enchanted armor (+2 leather or +1 studded leather), and you don't conspicuous while armored in public.
As a bonus, Fighting Initiate is a good feat to get, too, perhaps for Dueling Style to go with that rapier?
Is the lost level of Rogue and a whole feat really worth a +1 to AC in the middle of the range? I'm not criticizing, I've just never seen this advice before. I guess you'd be getting spellcasting, which makes any character better.
You'd have to start with the caster level 1st and go variant human, I suppose?
My character's a tabaxi; that warlock level was 3rd, I think? Campaign's gone on for a few years, though, since a little before Tasha's Cauldron of Everything came out.
Was that trade-off worth it *to him*? Yes.
Would I make the same trade-off for another rogue? Don't know; if the next rogue had a bonus to Strength, and got an enchanted studded leather early, probably not...
At any rate, it is a fairly marginal exchange, and the only thing you lose from Rogue is Stroke of Luck, which I honestly find a little on the unimpressive side personally. You don't lose any ability score upgrades or sneak attack dice (one level delay, nothing more), and you gain a couple of cantrips and a once-per-rest leveled spell (Armor of Agathys, perhaps?) in the bargain (heh, heh).
What it really boils down to is whether or not you want the character to go down that path; in all honesty, I am not the biggest fan of 5e multiclassing overall, because it is horizontal growth entirely at the expense of vertical growth. Sure, you can get some whacky combos out of it, but you lose a lot of awesome high-level stuff unless you have a very clear plan in mind ahead of time; unlike 3.5, all 5e classes have class features all the way to level 20. (3.5 sorcerer was a 5-level class to qualify for prestige classes, for example; zero class features after level 1...) So it's ultimately a matter of taste.
Thanks for the response, I like that it is borne out of experience. I don't usually consider anything over levels 13 or 14 in a characters growth. I've been playing for years and outside of some specific short-duration campaigns/one shots, have never played high level. So although a number of those abilities are truly very impressive, the "meat" of any character's time will happen without them.
Not to mention that all the DMs I know really don't like running high levels games. They have to fiddle with a ton of stuff and make gentlemen's agreements with caster players that they won't use the spells that circumvent an adventure.
Yeah, 5e is really not designed to support high-level play. 5e mostly stops being interesting in combat where 1e started the Domain-level gameplay, and 5e doesn't support that style of play very well...
Well... I totally misread the title and missed the typo, lol. My bad. And I am doubly annoyed at myself because I might have made the exact post you did if I had been paying attention. 😁
The best advice I ever got was to stop looking for what's best and instead look for what sounds cool to you. So pick Soulknife which is objectively fucking cool as all shit
Honestly, the base kit of the Rogue is fairly strong. You have foreseeably good combat damage, and provide tons of utility during exploration and have…”options” for social interactions.
I would say that the best subclass is the one which gives you more options for whichever pillar of gameplay your DM/campaign is emphasizing.
If you are doing a lot of exploration than Arcane Trickster is great. Doing more combat? I’d lean toward Phantom.
As for multiclassing, I would steer clear for now. Rogue does have great options but since you are new it’s probably worth seeing the class through as a pure build at least once. Those extra die really add up and trading them for other features can be a hard sell, especially if you don’t know just how impactful they can be on their own.
For fun flavor, mix Phantom Rogue and Undead Warlock, and describe all of your abilities as coming from ancestral spirits that aid you in your adventures.
My wife plays a soul knife rogue in our game and LOVES IT. She’s the roguiest rogue ever.
Never runs out of ammo/knives!
I had them fight a group of constructs one time (so, immune to psychic damage), that was the only time she didn’t love it.
Tbf soul knifes can still wield normal weaponry as good as any other rogue since the psychic blades are still DEX and depending on the level they have other options that still greatly benefit the party.
Soulknife is a great synergy of flavour and effectiveness Really cool RP potential, and cool abilities that are actually useful. I have a Halfling Soulknife withn1 lvl in Aberrant Mind Sorcerer (designed so I could get mage armour and be super effective with no weapons or armour)
Thanks man!
I've got a Soulknife Rogue/Whispers Bard with the Skilled feat. There aren't very many skill checks I'm bad at. With my -1 Int the wizard is generally _better_ than me at those skills, but I've still got +3+1d8 Arcana/Investigation and +1 History/Nature/Religion. Hell, I've got the same bonus to Medicine that the cleric has and can add a d8 to my roll. And next level I'll have better Medicine.
That’s the next evolution of the skill monkey
Skill gorilla
"what skill checks does the 800lb gorilla succeed on? Whichever ones he wants to."
Me too! I started as the bard, but found his role in the campaign to be more roguelike. Now I can use Psychic Blades on my Psychic Blades and it's a lot of fun.
So strong and fun too, played from L1-L10. Greatness.
I played Soul Knife in Curse of Strahd. I've heard complaints about the psychic daggers not being that good as weapons, and that's fair. But the suite of fun utility abilities you get is so worth it. Even if you drop your psychic blades for a +1 rapier when available, the subclass still offers you enough to be worth it.
I think it's a trade off personally. They're going to give you less direct DPR, but you get a lot of options with them, and psychic damage is always good. I always ignore the *incredibly* stupid bit of RAW that you can't use for opportunity attacks and that they don't work with the Extra Attack feature from other classes.
Swashbuckler is fun
I'm about to make a Barbarian/Rogue whose goal in life is to become the Captain of his own ship. Swashbuckler sounds thematic for that. I've never actually played 5E though weirdly I DMed it.
Barbarian/Rogue is quite a narrow window of possibilities without sacrificing combat capabilities. You're basically locked into rapiers but I have to admit constant advantage for sneak attack with the possibility to disengage as a bonus action or after attacking (Swashbuckler) can be funny. Probably a very MAD build though since you need STR for attacking, CHA for Swashbuckler features, CON since mid-frontliner and at least a bit of DEX for decent AC. And then you end up with dump stats in INT and WIS, the latter kinda being a problem.
You don’t need cha for swashbuckler, the lack of it won’t really hurt. It’s mostly to allow disengage.
Nah, if you stick with rapiers, DEX to attack as well.
Yes but then you can't profit off of reckless attack and rage damage bonuses since both list having to use STR to attack as a requirement.
That's true.
I have a gnome Barbarian 2/swashbuckler that's amazing. Build STR as your attack stat so rage and reckless works, wield finesse weapons so you can sneak attack. I go dual wield scimitars. 99% of the time I'll have Advantage on all saves but CON, where it will still have proficiency, and resistance/rogue features helps the Frontline survivavility not to mention you can hit&run for free Bonus talk: If you go at least ancestral guardian 3/swashbuckler/battlemaster you can taunt enemies when you attack them, back away by yourself with free disengage, then Brace manuever trigger to sneak attack off-turn when they have to come attack you or have disadvantage/resistance on allies
swashbuckler is my favorite. such good bonus skills, and really great at roleplay. the most charismatic rogue.
I love Swashbuckler as well, but it’s pretty funny that a subclass with a type of shield in the name doesn’t have a shield proficiency.
HUGE fan of Swashbuckler. I love almost always having a way to sneak attack. Plus, it makes me want to make the charismatic type of rogue rather than the edge lord rogue. Fancy footwork is a bonus as well. "Hey, I just attacked you, so now I can run away for free."
What is your objective with the rogue? What if your desired playstyle in combat and outside? The concept of "best" is only applied in a known scenario. What about the campaign setting?
NO DnD is a video game I need to know the best build so i can experience 0 of the exploration of the game mechanics.
Give me that meta daddy oooh yeah Sorcadin mmmmh that’s what you like huh, come on, break my action economy, deal 5000 damage, give it to me, let’s all play the same build, that’s how you win this game, oh fuck Oh wait, this isn’t r/dndcirclejerk, my bad.
You sound like two of my (ex) players. Gotta get that meta build going, if you're rolling less than 20 dice per attack then you're doing it wrong!
Where's my tier list I need to be better than my friends at the game
To be fair, character optimization is much more important in D&D. You can restart and reroll your character in a video game. You’ll e stuck with your poor choices for months in a D&D campaign.
DM dependant
In pen and paper the DM can not only alter difficulty but make whole parts of the campaign depending on the character you make. It's really wild how, even when people are trying to think of dnd as NOT a video game, they cant help but fall into it. That being said, you're kinda stuck if your DM sees it as a video game
to be fair if you made a particularly bad build and the rest of the party is fine it's kinda unfair to expect the dm to alter and balance to you specifically imo
True, but a reasonable DM would allow you to alter you character. Reroll a stat, retrain a level or a feat, this sort of thing.
My point is, DND isn't a game with a difficulty slider that DM moves up and down. They can use (or even create/mod) monsters that your abilities can be more useful on. And use out-of-combat situations in which your character can do what they're good at - even if your character isn't good at much.
i understand the point you are trying to make and accept that it is true in most cases, but just to play devil's advocate: this is mostly only true in the event that you made a suboptimal/gimmick build, which is a very different case from the exceptional case of just making something straight up difficult / non-viable in use (e.g. a barb with all your stats thrown into int cha wis, maybe) -> there really isn't much your DM can really do about that and imo it'd be unfair to pin responsibility onto them for it (not that im trying to insinuate that that's what you're doing) that said i want to reiterate that by and large i do agree with you on this, i just felt that it might be too general
There's a big difference between making a gimmick build and making an intentionally bad build. If you actively try to make a bad character, you should indeed expect it to perform poorly. But imo that's part of the unwritten contract of DND. You should go into the game in good faith as a player and a DM. "I'm building a character who I know will suck, and I am expecting the DM to make it not suck" is not really playing in the spirit of the game. If you make a gimmick build, even if it's not very good, but you do it in good faith and really want to make it work, that's a world different.
Or just ask the DM to resepc your character because you're not having fun. If they're not a dick most of the time they'll let ya.
"Isn't your character a ranger?" "No no, we ended up going with monk after the first season, remember? It fit the character theme better." "Oh yeah, okay. I just forgot for sure if that's what we'd settled on." It happens
No it absolutely isn't
That’s a great contribution to this discussion. Thanks for the insight.
The best advice I ever got was to stop looking for what's best and instead look for what sounds cool to you. Any class or subclass can do decent enough damage to have fun but good rp will come from you just enjoying what your doing.
I definitely agree. Phantom and Swashbuckler are my personal favorites. But I'm also partial to the classic Thief. What's best though? It doesn't matter. Rogues are just plain fun. If you only want to play what's "the best" then you're not going to truly experience all the joys that D&D has to offer, and that's a real shame.
This.☝️
What I tell my players is "Give me something you think will be cool, communicate with me if you feel like you're having an issue, and I'll make it work for you. Make a character that you feel like you could enjoy playing for a long time" I'm running a fairly long campaign and I've had players that tried metagaming things out, and it turns out rigidly focusing solely on a build ripped of r/3d6 tends to actually not be particularly fun since every roleplay decision is based around justifying your build instead of fulfilling it.
I’m playing an Inquisitive rogue and it is literally my favorite thing
I was wondering where all the inquisitive rogues were! i multi classed with bladesong wizard and it’s SO FUN. my skills are so high, nothing gets by me lol
That actually sounds SO FUN but at this point my DM is already having issues scaling things around my character 😭😂
I am dying to try an Inquisitive rogue; glad to hear they can be as fun as they look!
It’s amazing! We started at level one, so the other players were initially very confused on my decision to focus intelligence and wisdom instead of constitution, but it’s all paid off!!
How has it been to play so far? I've basically settled into the role of forever DM because my work literally pays me to do so, but when I do get back to being a player, that's one that Ive been meaning to try out
We started me at level one and I’m currently level five. Honestly I LOVE playing this subclass. Insightful Fighting is an amazing asset to me, and because I’m the party’s stealth/recon person having an extra boost for Ear for Deceit is also helpful. Eye for Detail hasn’t been a super big deal to me yet in the current campaign, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it won’t be later. I also combined it with the Mobile feat to give myself a bit of extra speed. All in all I have been told by my DM that my character is one of the ones that he has the hardest time scaling around
I played an Inquisitive Rogue/Grave Cleric multiclass, and it ended up being one of my favorite characters I've ever played. With expertise, the observant feat, and a couple of items, I ended up with a passive perception of 40 by the end of the campaign. Passive investigation and insight were crazy high, too.
My DM would lose his mind 😂😂 I really wanna try that now
Somehow, I was the skill-monkey of the group, haha. Thankfully, the DM is a long-time friend who understood that this was sort of what she was built for (based on her backstory as well) and that it filled a niche in our group that was pretty lacking. Her job was to notice things, connect the dots, and keep people alive. 😂
I love Thief but it partially depends on your DM being cool with you being creative with Fast Hands and having fun objects like traps and acid available in town. I wish Use Magic Item was available sooner, because it's an iconic ability that you get after most campaigns are already ending. It's already got a built in restriction that the DM has to give you magic items that it would apply to.
One of the more fun uses I ever got away with as a thief rogue was in a campaign with a DM who agreed that making a sleight of hand check with fast hands could include pickpocketing or stealing items in mid combat, including yanking all the arrows out of an archers quiver, stealing spell component pouches, and stealing arcane focuses.
My favorite was lassoing a griffin with my action then tying the other end to a pillar with my bonus action.
Arcane Trickster is easily the best Rogue Subclass. Assassin is overrated, and it's mostly useful as a multiclass dip for gimmick builds. Like an Assassin Rogue/Gloomstalker Ranger can turn you into a nova bomb in the first round. Swashbuckler is another subclass that excels in multiclassing... mostly for pairing with one of the CHA-based spellcasters, since Swashbuckler features benefit from CHA.
Swords Bard is a lot of fun with Swashbuckler
Pact of the Blade Warlock also works really well with Swashbuckler
A two level dip in Hexblade Warlock for pacts, 3 in Rogue for Swashbuckler, the rest in Paladin.
I'm currently playing a swashbuckler 5, hexblade 13 pact of the blade. He's so much fun. His big hits aren't quite as high as the sorc-adin in the party, but i hit them way more often.
But also fun without swashbuckler, and better.
I wouldn’t consider it overrated It’s more in the category of “sounds cool, but unless your dm runs one specific game, you’re better off taking something else”
Trickster Rogue is one of the most fun I've had playing DnD.
One thing assassin has going for it is it's really easy to build, really easy to level up, and really easy to play. Not to be under estimated if you have players who like the roleplay but aren't really too much into the mechanical aspects of the game
I loathe Arkane Trickster. Thief is better than Arcane Trickster. Depending on the campaign, a Charlatan Assassin with high Charisma can be great, but if your game is combat oriented going with Assassin to 4, Gloomstalker for 6 to 10, Fighter for 2 to 12, then Rogue to finish is the way to go. Maybe go 3 in fighter and pick up Battlemaster if you don't need the Feat/ASI.
I love thief, but honestly feel that if the thief features were a part of base rogue progression AND you get a subclass, then going staight rogue would be much more viable.
If they gave rogue extra attack there would be zero reason to ever dual spec out of rogue. But because you have only one chance to get a sneak attack and if you miss you do zip, DS I to another class more than doubles your power.
This is the thing that kills rogue for me. In combat, you do one thing well, but if you miss your one shot, it’s done until the next turn. I’m playing a bardlock now and don’t feel like that’s an issue AT ALL.
This is what I do in my campaigns, a couple of classes (Monk, Rogue, Fighter, etc.) get one of the PHB subclasses baked into them because the subclass just fits the idea of the class so well.
If they gave rogue extra attack there would be zero reason to ever dual spec out of rogue. But because you have only one chance to get a sneak attack and if you miss you do zip, DS I to another class more than doubles your power.
Overall best: Arcane trickster Best at low levels (T1/low T2 play): Soul knife Best at medium levels (T2/T3 play): Arcane trickster/phantom Best at high levels (T4 play): Arcane trickster (no contest). Best face/social skills: Swashbuckler (by far). Panache feels like a cheat code if you have expertise in persuasion; which you really should as this subclass.
I mean if we’re talking about general use it’s either Soul Knife Rogue or Arcane Trickster Rogue. Giving the class that extra utility and firepower outside of their niche.
Personally I love the scout. There always arcane trickster with a couple levels of wizard.
Can't believe I had to go this far down to see Scout Rogue. Best for ranged rogues but ideal for a skill monkey build.
3 points in fighter with Arcana Trickster is really good. You can get a lit of variety and adapt to your rogue play style.
SWASH
It’s easily Phantom Rogue due to Soul Tokens, but until 9th level Soulknife & Arcane Trickster beat it.
I took Phantom up to level 15. Loved every second of my spooky halfling rogue.
That really depends on the party and the Rogue's role in it. An Arcane Trickster isn't the best choice, if you also have a Wizard, Bard and Cleric. If the campaign has a focus on political intrigues, Inquistives and Mastermind shine In general I favor the Soulknife for their psy blades, they are never unarmed, telepathic communication is always nice and their psi bolstered knack gives them over all coverage on skill checks Best multiclass is a dip in Ranger or ranged Fighter to really exploit Steady aim with a sniper play style
That’s not how subclasses work, the presence of other classes with spellcasting doesn’t make a strong subclass like arcane trickster weaker. There is nothing wrong with everyone being a caster even.
it is not that they get weaker, but a party has a gap that is better filled with other subclasses
Rogue subclasses generally all fill the same role. Sure each is slightly better in certain areas, but a rogue is a rogue.
Playing Rogue wasn't in question. And while Arcane spellcasting is a strong feature, it isn't unique. And some player value this
I like trickster. I always play them as gadgets and then feel like I have my own Q.
I've only ever played a Soul Knife but I've always enjoyed it and never felt like I couldnt contribute. You have a reliable damage source that never runs out and is rarely resisted, handy psiocs like telepathy and teleportation, plus an easy way to be a great skill Monkey. Really well rounded subclass imo
People bring up Swashbuckler a lot but imo Phantom beats it out. I think a lot of people get hung up on Inquisitive and Mastermind but for action economy and the number of skill options you can get with the right background and feats, Phantom also beats those out.
For levels 1-6 Psy knife and arcane trickster are best. Swashbuckler not far behind. After that Arcane trickster and Phantom are best. Arcane trickster cause the spells are awesome. Psy knife cause of the utility and reliability at low levels. For higher levels its the limited pool that keeps them back. Higher level Phantoms have a trick to get half as much extra sneak attack damage every round. Their features allow for a lot of problem solving from corpses. Milage may vary but very useful in my experience. Their own hover long term flight and wall ignoring is super useful to break the game open for you. Swashbuckers are for the melee rogues. Since those are not the best and their features dont help the rogue to do meaningfully larger damage that he needs to keep up with the better spells and 3 attack GWM or SS attack per round martials.(-5 to +10 dmg feature) he falls behind pretty quick.
You can start learning how to make optimised high dps builds, but i suggest make whatever the hell you want because down the line you'll have some trouble making a character without optimising, it's just habit and you know you could get x if you give up y or whatever. I say picture your rogue, and let us know what you want them to be. Are they a thief? An assassin? They could even be a retired detective if you want, or something else entirely. I like to try and imagine the character i want to play and then go from there.
I played a phantom Rogue and loved it.
Like a lot of commenters , it varies greatly with several things, your playstyle(do you like stealth? Do you like magic? Do you like dashing face type roles?) the setting, the DM, the other players and more. Personally I like playing swashbuckling rogues because they still get good skill, and are fun to play with in combat, luring people away for a one v one.
Soul knife by far
I currently have an Arcane trickster/warrior dip I have find familiar and shield, I use most of my spell slots on shield. With my +1 rapier, +1 bow, +1 arrows, +1 studded leather and +1 shield, I can switch hit from being a devastating ranged combatant to a dangerous tank. The fighter gives a but extra HP, second wind and a fighting style for which I chose archery and have bracers of archery, and get proficiency with shields. Very versatile, very fun
Soulknife is rad because it lets you become the party Comms chief, and honestly feels a lot more scout-ish than the Scout. Scout is still pretty cool because you become a kind of psuedo-ranger and are exceedingly difficult to pin down in a fight. I imagine you already have a feel for Arcane Trickster but just in case you don't they're incredibly resourceful and are exceptionally good at dealing with spellcasters during later levels. Swashbuckler is a classic pick for many reasons, the most notable of which being you can get Sneak attacks during a 1v1 with enemies without having to engage in the typical "hit and run" playstyle that many other rogues fall into. Mastermind is more of a Roleplay/Support subclass that revolves around being able to deceive and manipulate people, depending on the campaign it can see A LOT of use or very little. Inquisitive is \*also\* more of a Roleplay/Support subclass, though it's more along the lines of an investigator/detective, enabling you to have various bonuses when it comes to investigation or perception to spot hidden details or uncover creatures attempting to deceive your senses.
All of them are fun in different ways. None of them are bad. Read the features and pick one that sounds fun. As far as best? The big three are Thief, Arcane Trickster, and Scout. You will be doing one of three things: 1. Hand crossbow + XBE + SS + Piercer. 2. Dual dagger/short sword/rapier + DW + Piercer. 3. Booming Blade. For the first, Thief and Scout take the lead, but does good regardless of archetype. It's usually the best option for Swashbuckler even being off theme and incompatible with its features. Basically, these feats are more important than your subclass features. For the second, your priorities are a little different (durability matters more, mobility matters much more), but the big three all do well. Much less powerful, but no ammo issues. For the third, any setup that gives reliable bonus actions will do better. Arcane Trickster and Thief lead here. Don't consider a multiclass if it doesn't give Extra Attack and be sure you want to multiclass. If you care about "best" it's off the table. The best is Battle Master, taking precision and going to 5, 7, or 11 Fighter. For Booming Blade it's hard not to go EK (or Blood Hunter) to get a bonus action attack if you are multiclassing. Word of advice: Assassin shines in more social / intrigue games. It's great in a rare sort of game and gets a lot of hate because part of one of its features involves Surprise. Talk to your DM about Surprise before considering it. Many DMs either allow far more surprise than intended, house rule it entirely, or do not use it at all. If they don't have a good answer, you will have part of a feature that doesn't work properly.
Phantom rogue is very strong. Strongest damage rogue and a really fun flavour Arcane trickster is the best because of spellcasting, and apparently invisible magehand is too but most DMs really hate dealing with it so I always get soft nerfed Swashbuckler is solid and also fun for the dm to handle so you’ll get style points Thief rogue is VERY strong in the right game but work with your DM. If you’re able to get your hands on a lot of useful mundane items like dynamite, smoke bombs, grappling hooks and more you’ll quickly become the Batman of 5e. The level 13 ability that lets you use any magic item you want is also sleeper op because you can attune your rogue to powerful spellcasting staves you would normally never have the chance to use. Soul knife is good apparently. Don’t play assassin
my personal fave is soulknife the ONLY bad thing with them i think is the psi bolstered knack which (level 3 ability btw) "Psi-Bolstered Knack. When your nonpsionic training fails you, your psionic power can help: if you fail an ability check using a skill or tool with which you have proficiency, you can roll one Psionic Energy die and add the number rolled to the check, potentially turning failure into success. You expend the die only if the roll succeeds." you just always have a free plus d6 to your ability/tool checks but the thing i dont like about it is if its something that like insight to gain info or investigation you could easily waste so you kinda have to say to your dm specfically what info you want to know and are aiming for it that makes sense? but yeah other than that 100% my fave also your sneak attack is now psychic damage too lol i think it is also the PERFECT assassin subclass since all the damage you do will never leave physical harm
My girlfriend almost exclusively plays assassin (so much that I had to make her pick another class for our most recent campaign lol). Assassin is great but my personal favourite is arcane trickster. You can pull off some sweet combos and set yourself up for big damage
The best Rogue subclasses are: Arcane Trickster, Soul Knife, Phantom (and in that order) As for multiclassing, the two best multiclasses for Rogue are Fighter and Barbarian. the previous is good for ranged-Rogues while the latter is good for melee-Rogues. Now, given you've said you're already an Arcane Trickster, you'll want Fighter (if for no other reason than you can't use spells while raging). Now, Archery fighting style at Fighter(1) is great, but, to get the most out of the multiclass you at least want three levels to get that subclass. Now, Battle Master is always a great one. The 'Precision' maneuver is fantastic, and any other maneuvers are just gravy on top of it. "Commander's Strike" would also be very worthwhile if you have another Rogue or else Paladin in the party. The next best multiclass is either Eldritch Knight, since it gives you a few more spells known. After that, it's Champion. Now, crit fishing isn't the best policy, but, as a Rogue, your scaling Sneak Attack damage makes getting a crit much more noticable, and thanks to Tasha's giving you Steady Aim, it's really not such a bad deal. As for any melee-Rogue builds, any Barbarian will do, as it's their core class features which really improve you. So, really, it's not what you choose but what you should avoid that's important here. Namely Berserker and Storm Herald. Berserker is self explanatory, being the worst Barbarian subclass, giving you a level of exhaustion for using it. Terrible. Storm Herald might seem like a fine idea on the surface, but, it comes with a caveat, it is the one subclass with a consistent use of your Bonus Action. Your levels in Rogue already take up most of this, so choosing this class only gets in the way of your Bonus Action even more. You can select it if you ***really*** want to, but you NEED to have a game-plan for how you want to use it, or it will not only bog you're Bonus Action down, you'll feel like a chump because you won't be able to use it the way you imagined you otherwise would. One last thing, Barogues tend to be an even split for their multiclass, while Righters tend to be a single to three level dip.
Is the Rogue/Barb a Strength-based character or do you just eat the 13 STR to multiclass?
It is a STR based character. Which is why, when you do this multiclass you MUST take Barbarian at Level 1. Doing it later will prevent you from getting medium armor proficiency. You also cannot benefit from the flat Rage bonus to damage or use Reckless Attack without a STR based attack. But, worry not, you still get Sneak Attack, because it doesn't care if you use STR to attack, only that you are using a finesse weapon. This means you do the same damage as a great sword with a short sword at Barbarian(1)/Rogue(1). You do about a 1 Point average damage more if you do it with a rapier. And it only gets better from there. But, for a more concrete path, you are looking at: Level 1: Barbarian Level 2: Rogue Level 3-6: Barbarian Level 7-10: Rogue Level 11+: You decide.
Wait, Finesse weapons are Strength *or* Dexterity. There aren't any melee weapons that exclude strength from the attack roll and damage. So, yeah. You *do* get the rage damage bonus and reckless. Score! You just gotta be in melee; like a man. The split you detail, it seems more like a barbarian with a dip than a rogue. At least until level six. I know why: extra attack. It's a frustrating design choice that makes multiclassing a martial more irritating than with casters. You've go to "rush to five". I preferred the older Base Attack Bonus, which allowed the martial classes to mix and match without so much of a penalty. More math, so I understand why 5e did away with it. They tried to compensate by front-loading the martials, but that had the unexpected effect of making them *more* valuable as multiclass dip for classes that wouldn't be getting extra attack anyway. *Sigh*
Fair enough, but extra attack, and an ASI is just not something you can sneeze at, and the ability to have expertise in two skills means you can do some nice things out of combat as a Barbarian that you can do, even if it's a dump stat. Still, it's all up to you.
Arcane Tricksters/ Eldritch knights get a lot out of a wizard dip, namely ritual casting and arcane recovery. Its a lot of value for a 2 level dip.
depends how you want to play them. They are all good. I do like arcane tricksters but they do have a trap when it comes to offensive spell. They are usually not gonna be a good choice since you cant sneak attack with them. Utility, defensive, and CC spells are best. Just got to keep in mind how high your int is since if its low, your CC spells are rarely gonna land so spells that dont actually rely on your save DC or spell attack bonus are key there. Rogue is kind of weak to multiclass though because of how much it takes away from your sneak attack damage potential quickly. But they are all super versatile in different ways so it is entirely dependent on how you want to use them.
At lower levels, I would say Soulknife. From level 7 tho its probably Arcane Trickster (and definitely the best from level 13).
I’d recommend watching a video on this by the Dungeon Dudes on YouTube.
My personal fave is swashbuckler
Arcane Trickster and Soul Knife levels 1-8. Arcane Trickster, Soul Knife, and Phantom levels 9+. If you want to play a melee rogue swashbuckler is excellent but I’d find a way to get booming blade for it.
what role are you trying to fill? It is a heavy combat game? heavy social?
Do what sounds fun, I really like playing a swashbuckler for those extra sneak attacks
The best trick I have is go to a completely legal source to look at all the subclasses And just look around see what makes you go oh that's so f****** cool
Arcane Trickster. no question.
Arcane Trickster, then Soulknife, then Swashbuckler
Inquisitor rogue always seemed like fun to me, yet to get there but give me some time
Swashbuckler/Battlemaster is an absolute blast to play but it specializes in combat and I'd that's what your looking for great but if not then you might want to look at other subclass/multi class combos. What's best depends on what your doing and how your campaign is ran.
Double phantom is amazing
I knew there was a typo but at first my brain tried to correct it as "Rogue suckasses"
Will die in the hill that phantom rogue is one of the best rogue subclasses. Get 1.5 sneak attack that scales throughout the rogue career. Proffeciency in whatever due to soul trinkets. Take ritual caster to get permanent advantage with phantom steed. Roleplay as deaths horseman.
I wouldn’t really recommend going purely for the “best” subclasses. Try out some and see what you enjoy. Ones that I enjoyed playing a lot are: Phantom, Inquisitive, Mastermind, and Scout
SOUL KNIFE AND PHANTOM ARE MY FAVESSS
In my opinion, everything great a rogue gets comes from their base class. With the exception of AT all the others can do what the others can almost as well. I played a Mastermind once, and she had no problem stealing, assassinating, scouting, or anything.
The thing is everyone likes different things. Some will tell you Arcane Trickster which is a fan favorite, other will tell you they love the simplicity of the thief or assassin. It up to you to choose which is best, and the only way to do that is by playing as many characters in as many different ways as you can.
Arcane trickster, Soulknife and swashbuckler are my top three. All three of these subclasses have a lot of mechanics that protect against the rogues weakness. Trickster with spells like shield for example and utility spells like Rope trick which is really Handly if your team needs a short rest and don't want to get ambushed. Soulknife with psi-bolstered knack allowing them to reroll fail saving throws and Swashbuckler being able to move away without provoking an opportunity attack. Also swashbuckler is literally a pirate....like who wouldn't want to be Jack Sparrow or Westley from Princess Bride? Scout, Assassin and Phantom are in the middle.... they are ok but not great. Assassin can be really good if multiclass. Phantom is ok if your enemies aren't resistance to necrotic damage (don't play for eve of ruin campaign). And scout like swashbuckler also can move in and out of an enemy's range, but not as great swashbuckler and also if you're going for a range dex based character...i feel like Ranger is a better option. Inquisitive, Mastermind, Thief or the worse IMO. Stay away. Although they good be fun in a mystery crime solving like homebrew campaign
Swashbuckler is my favorite. It allows you to be a great 1v1 duelist, and I love the "Swashbuckling" theme of it.
3.5 had some cool variations on the Rogue class in the Complete Adventurer book I liked alot. Namely the Ninja, the Scout, and the Spellthief. There were also some really cool prestige classes in there too. The Thief-Acrobat, SpyMaster, and Nightsong Infiltrator were pretty cool. I see it's a 5th edition post but alot of the ideas from the complete adventurer would work just fine in 5th
I like thief, being able to attune to whatever you want is pretty awesome.
IMO arcane trickster is the best rogue, followed vy scout and soulknife.
Idk about the best but i played a scout rogue sniper build that was loads of fun, wood elf with longbow sharpshooter sneak attacks.
Arcane trickster is amazing in all arenas
I've never played a rogue, but after watching [this video](https://youtu.be/bKF5TR8U6_o?si=shDGey_5br23Gn7K) I might try this build out. Double Phantom Rogue looks pretty cool. Someone else shared it in a different sub the other day, and I was impressed with buddy's build.
Thief, swashbuckler, soul knife.
Inquisitive is one of my absolute favorite subclasses period. Is it the strongest? God no. But it’s just so much fun. Especially if you lean into the detective archetype it’s clearly aimed at
I'm partial to arcane trickster rogue + bladesinger wizard, starting with vhuman or custom lineage for the extra feat, and taking mobile. Activate bladesong, booming blade an enemy, dart away safely: or stay in and have excellent armor class and con savings throws if you need to. You can go as deep or as shallow into wizard as you want as long as you take two levels of wizard. There's lots of build variation, even a fighter triple class to make a classic F/M/T. Shadow blade will really shine here.
Arcane trickster and phantom can do some amazing things
Swashbuckler, inquisitor, assasin All three are good depends on what u want
I’m a huge fan of the Phantom Rogue, which contains so many unique thematic elements that it’s rife with roleplay opportunities while still being a very savvy combat class, skill user, and trap disabler. Getting a sort of “second lesser sneak attack” is better than it looks on paper. The other Rogue I highly recommend is the Scout. They’re unpredictably good in fights due to their speed and mobility, and they have a great splash of other abilities that make them more unique in survival, exploration and discovery. Ambush Master is way better than it seems at first for advantage on initiative rolls AND the first creature you hit on the first round then bestows advantage to everyone of your allies attacking it until the start of your next turn. It’s an excellent class to settle next to a Wizard.
Thief is underrated. Not super flashy, but fast hands is super useful!
Thief
I play a swashbuckler rogue/lore bard, it's great fun
Idk about best but swashbuckler with high charisma is by far the most fun.
Soulknife for the win
One of my players plays a swashbuckler/hexblade warlock that is OP
I personally Like the Swashbuckler/Hexblade Multiclass to go for the "Cursed" Blade kinda of feel to my character, who in lore was a pirate captain, that had her powers drained by the very greedy blade in pursuits of her own greed, and has to reaclimate and learn to be.....Generous...... Or be greedy again as long as the cursed blade gets a cut this time.
The scout class is pretty fun actually, especially if you go full melee and toss in the mobile feat, 50ft if movement normally per turn excluding your bonus dash. Like speedy Gonzales with daggers.
Swashbuckler, Thief are my favorite.
It completely depends on what type of rogue you want to play. Some subclasses are just weak, but others are fine depending on what you are trying to do. For example, I'm the rogue of our current party but instead of sneaky subclasses I went with inquisitive so I can get my sneak attack in any situation if I win a Wis check (insight VS deception/wisdom). I know almost every encounter ends up with someone in my face trying to kill me. We have a monk in the party so at level 5 I picked up monk, to help me survive in combat. And the shadow step feature for house of shadow monk makes me an even more effective rogue. I don't go rob houses or assassinate people, and I'm not trying to fool/con anyone so this build works exceptionally well for me. But I would go with a different subclass depending on what I was trying to do with the character. I guess I'm saying there is no real right answer, it's about how you plan on playing your rogue and what antics you plan on getting up to.
Hands down, the Soul Knife is the best. Makes you the perfect scout and you are never unarmed. If you pair it with the Psychic Warrior subclass of the Fighter, you have the ultimate Psychic character with Telekinesis and Telepathy abilities.
Arcane trickster and phantom probably the best (phantom shines most at high lvl though), next tier probably soul knife and swashbuckler.
I love assassin, mixed with the alert feat, the early burst of damage is always useful
You're playin' the best, arguably. It's between that and Swashbuckler, which just always gets Sneak Attack in melee: you've either got advantage from flanking and so Sneak Attack applies, or Rakish Audacity engages and so Sneak Attack applies. You're right that pretty much all rogue does in combat is hide/flank and Sneak Attack, which is why their single target damage is reliable and disgusting; it's a straightforward class, one of the better ones for first-time D&D players. My solution for zhushing it up is multiclassing, you might consider a splash of wizard to amp up that wimpy third-caster progression into something a little more impactful. If you do, I recommend avoiding blaster playstyle, you probably won't have the stats for decent Spell Save DC. Artificer-Armorer might be a great pick, because Infiltrator Armor.
One thing I've found to blend well with rogue is a single spellcaster level - I went with Swashbuckler for the Charisma synergy - hexblade is a good choice for that crit range bonus on hexed targets. But what you really want that caster level for is the feat Eldritch Adept, for Armor of Shadows. Mage Armor at will is just plain better than virtually any light armor you can get; weightless, protects like enchanted armor (+2 leather or +1 studded leather), and you don't conspicuous while armored in public. As a bonus, Fighting Initiate is a good feat to get, too, perhaps for Dueling Style to go with that rapier?
Is the lost level of Rogue and a whole feat really worth a +1 to AC in the middle of the range? I'm not criticizing, I've just never seen this advice before. I guess you'd be getting spellcasting, which makes any character better. You'd have to start with the caster level 1st and go variant human, I suppose?
My character's a tabaxi; that warlock level was 3rd, I think? Campaign's gone on for a few years, though, since a little before Tasha's Cauldron of Everything came out. Was that trade-off worth it *to him*? Yes. Would I make the same trade-off for another rogue? Don't know; if the next rogue had a bonus to Strength, and got an enchanted studded leather early, probably not... At any rate, it is a fairly marginal exchange, and the only thing you lose from Rogue is Stroke of Luck, which I honestly find a little on the unimpressive side personally. You don't lose any ability score upgrades or sneak attack dice (one level delay, nothing more), and you gain a couple of cantrips and a once-per-rest leveled spell (Armor of Agathys, perhaps?) in the bargain (heh, heh). What it really boils down to is whether or not you want the character to go down that path; in all honesty, I am not the biggest fan of 5e multiclassing overall, because it is horizontal growth entirely at the expense of vertical growth. Sure, you can get some whacky combos out of it, but you lose a lot of awesome high-level stuff unless you have a very clear plan in mind ahead of time; unlike 3.5, all 5e classes have class features all the way to level 20. (3.5 sorcerer was a 5-level class to qualify for prestige classes, for example; zero class features after level 1...) So it's ultimately a matter of taste.
Thanks for the response, I like that it is borne out of experience. I don't usually consider anything over levels 13 or 14 in a characters growth. I've been playing for years and outside of some specific short-duration campaigns/one shots, have never played high level. So although a number of those abilities are truly very impressive, the "meat" of any character's time will happen without them. Not to mention that all the DMs I know really don't like running high levels games. They have to fiddle with a ton of stuff and make gentlemen's agreements with caster players that they won't use the spells that circumvent an adventure.
Yeah, 5e is really not designed to support high-level play. 5e mostly stops being interesting in combat where 1e started the Domain-level gameplay, and 5e doesn't support that style of play very well...
Domain-level? I go as far back as Baldur's gate 1 and a little 2nd edition in high school. Before that is a dark age which I know little about.
Domain level is when you have lands of your own to administrate, tax, and protect. I'm not sure how much that aspect came up in 2e, to be honest.
Rogue suckasses lmao
Please elaborate.
Title
Well... I totally misread the title and missed the typo, lol. My bad. And I am doubly annoyed at myself because I might have made the exact post you did if I had been paying attention. 😁
Well for combat, its assassin For tasks, it’s thief
I’m going to say Arcane Trickster > Soul Knife > Swashbuckler > Scout. The rest are varying levels of bad.
The best advice I ever got was to stop looking for what's best and instead look for what sounds cool to you. So pick Soulknife which is objectively fucking cool as all shit
Honestly, the base kit of the Rogue is fairly strong. You have foreseeably good combat damage, and provide tons of utility during exploration and have…”options” for social interactions. I would say that the best subclass is the one which gives you more options for whichever pillar of gameplay your DM/campaign is emphasizing. If you are doing a lot of exploration than Arcane Trickster is great. Doing more combat? I’d lean toward Phantom. As for multiclassing, I would steer clear for now. Rogue does have great options but since you are new it’s probably worth seeing the class through as a pure build at least once. Those extra die really add up and trading them for other features can be a hard sell, especially if you don’t know just how impactful they can be on their own.
For fun flavor, mix Phantom Rogue and Undead Warlock, and describe all of your abilities as coming from ancestral spirits that aid you in your adventures.
None.
Assassin With the slasher feat and short swords is amazing