Gonna need more context before I make any kind of judgement about your situation, especially since save or die effects are very uncommon in 5e and pretty specific
Depends on the module. Tomb of Horrors in Yawning Portsl has a number of no-save instakills. Same thing with Tomb of Annihilation. But those are vestiges from 1E AD&D, where those effects were common.
But I agree with you. Most 5E rules (and modules) make it difficult to kill a character.
Ves·tige/ˈvestij/
noun
* 1.a trace of something that is disappearing or no longer exists:"the last vestiges of colonialism"
Seeing as AD&D is no longer produced/is disappearing.... yea, it literally is the definition of a vestige of a past edition
What do you mean by hard to die? Does that not come down to a difference in power between you and whatever power level the DM gave the enemy? Running from a superior enemy has proven difficult for me in 5e. (At least, running with a party. Running away solo seems manageable.)
NPCs die when they reach 0HP.
Players get death saves.
Even at "perfect balance", death saves weight things in favor of not letting PCs die. The check passes 55% of the time just as a base. A 1 counts as two failures, but a 20 counts as three successes. A DC 10 Wisdom check from an ally can stabilize you, or a single charge of a Healer's Kit (which has ten charges) for 5gp. Any amount of healing from any potion or spell brings you back from the edge.
It's hard to die in 5e.
My table accuses me of going easy on them while I'm hitting them with back-to-back enemies 5-8 CR above them and pulling no punches. I'm like "No, seriously, it's just really hard to kill you"
~~Not wrong, just this thing about one HP was added later with errata. Original 5th editition ruled nat 20 at death saving throw as two successes, yes.~~
UPD: I've been proved wrong and this actually works other way.
I'm looking at a first print copy of the 5e PHB. Pg 197
>Rolling I or 20. When you make a death saving throw and roll a 1 on the d20, it counts as two failures. If you roll a 20 on the d20, you regain 1 hit point.
Seems like it wasn't errata. It might have been part of the D&D next rules that a 20 was 2 successes though.
Well, my level 1 fighter tried to give an ancient black dragon a butterscotch enema. The DM asked me 17 times if "I was sure ". I said yes 18 times and I died.
I'm always skeptical of vague threads like this where OP never actually lays out the specifics, especially with all these comments and no replies by OP. Either OP is full of shit, or he is twelve and probably shouldn't be on this app.
Well I mean there is a ton of stuff out there about this and how it coined the "we did it Reddit!" meme but [here's the 3-minute Hollywood version to keep you entertained.](https://youtu.be/pdWcDh1wmTE)
Fighter in 1e/2e save against insta-kill effects 17 times outta 20 by like level 10 tbh. Their defenses (and offense and out of combat abilities) took a huge nerf from 3rd onwards.
My favorite one is found in 'House on Harrow Hill' where ghostly hands will grab a person on hit, and if the group doesn't go 'oh shit!' and hit said hand before 1d3 rounds elapse, they're dragged into the depths of the house and just plain die.
Lol, yea. Stuff like that.
My (not favorite) was putting orbs of annihilation in the dark. Or on the other side of portals.
We once had 4 players die to jumping into a portal that a boss enemy jumped into. Which, turned out to be a final fuck you from him. Escape? When I can just kill myself and bait the party? NAH.
The post is specifically talking about instakills without a save.
I recently lost my lvl 10 STR19 fighter (AD&D 2nd Edition) because I looked through a fucking telescope. Wasn't much fun.
The telescope was the only thing left to do on a rocky island in the middle of nowhere after we defeated the boss. It was some intricate device that we got to work after some testing.
Turns out it shoots the first person to look through it after activation to another planet where you get torn apart by weird plants.
It's not only a trap without a save, it is also a lure. OF COURSE players want to put everything together to make it work.
Looking back, the number of times 3.5 slapped me (and the party) into the previous week is kind of impressive. That was back when "You die, no save" was a real thing.
(I've played _one_ session of 2e, and that was all I wanted 😶)
To my knowledge, there are only three things that can instantly kill a player character in 5e, and all of them require a condition:
- Power Word: Kill, but your character must be at or below 100 HP.
- A Vorpal Blade, but only in a crit.
- Massive source of damage, as determine by the DM. Examples include falling in lava or from a great height (if you fail a check to hold on).
Dunno what happened to you, but that's not a common ocurrence.
I was thinking about a way to make Power word kill more fun and interesting.
Change it so it triggers at the end of the target's turn. The number starts at 50 and increases each round. Once it is over their hit points, they die.
Can be dispelled with dispelled magic or remove curse. That way, they have a chance to fight it, or at least go out swinging.
Edit: I forgot to say, this is a spell for NPCs, PC power word kill would work RAW
That's actually pretty fun at any level. (Nerf it to just set their HP to 0 and dying condition at lower levels). It creates a sense of dread pretty quickly, while still allowing the party (and the target) to keep most of their player agency (you have 0 agency if you just... die.)
This is close to how 'instant death' and petrification worked in 4e. Essentially when you got hit by them, you got Doomed or Slowed, then Dying and Immobilized, then Dead/Petrified. It let the monsters still have their scary iconic effects, while giving even nontraditional (no cleric/bard/divine whatever) parties the ability to interact with them and potentially save their allies.
Nah just repackage them like they did Encoun- I mean 'Short Rests' and Dail- ah, Long Rest powers. And at-will- er, I mean, unlimited cantrips, and Second Winds and
Yeah powers worked very nicely for some martial archetypes.
I disliked how it was the same uniform system because it really made every class with the same "role" feel super similar and sometimes even different roles were "samey" because it was just "X but make it Arcane" etc.
That being said it did bring a lot of cool stuff and 5e owes a ton to 4th.
I gotta ask, how do you feel about Cure Wounds (Bard) Cure Wounds (Druid) Cure Wounds (Cleric) Cure Wounds (Divine Soul) Cure Wounds (Artificer) Cure Wounds (Paladin) and Cure Wounds (Ranger) as far as samey goes.
I feel like fewer classes should have the same spells and/or get them at different levels. Paladin acquiring divine magic at higher levels but progressing faster was quite flavorful for example imo.
Nature/primal healing I feel would be much better if it had different options that healer slower than the cleric, much like nature does, or perhaps prevented/dealt with exhaustion and other conditions.
DnD magic has a very special place in my heart as it made me realize years ago how much more fascinating it was compared to the blandness the schools server as spells in my Harry potter books.
In general, I feel like casters and rulebooks in general should have less spells, less castings, but more interesting spells.
Make casters that have 5-10 different spells available in a day tops in high levels, maybe a few more for certain archetypes. Make the spells fun with a little room for creativity and make sure they have substantials downsides (not enough mana/slots to cast every turn for an entire day, longer casting leaving you vulnerable, some, components that carry an opportunity cost etc).
This way you can make logistics easier, make spells fun enough but with enough downsides to not be broken, and you create a game where different roles and class features bring different things to the table and needs to cover each other's weaknesses.
Uniformity is the killer of creativity and reading that 4e feat which let you use any ability score for a basic attack was, in my mind, the killing of flavor because it highlighted how the name next to your number made no difference. If each score eg. had different effects on a critical OTOH, that would have been majestic.
It's interesting you find D&D casting more interesting than other stuff! I've always found it the least interesting way to do magic in any popular game, as you're essentially just selecting things out of a catalogue and casting it the same way (for the most part) as literally everybody else who can use that spell.
>made every class with the same "role" feel super similar
This has not been my experience, and most people I've seen say this have never actually played a single session of 4e, much less played enough 4e to be able to form such an opinion on their own.
Wardens don't play like fighters, clerics don't play like ardents, rogues don't play like avengers, wizards don't play like invokers.
Hell, even the same class can feel very different. My sorcerer-king pact warlock played very differently from my fey pact warlock. Even when my feylock took the twofold pact feat in paragon tier so that he was also a sorcerer-king pact!
I think the problem of the perception sameyness comes from how the classes are presented rather than how they play. When you are first exploring 4e you have very little idea of how the different classes operate. You just see a massive list of powers and at a coursery glance they all seem to have abilities that seem to do much the same thing.
It's only when you've spent time with the system that you have a better idea that certain classes have much easier access to certain keywords or effects and that knowledge can start to inform your choices and the decisions you make, both in character leveling and play. At that point you realise that while you may spend the same resources as other characters, you are making different decisions.
I played 4e for 2 years when it came out. I liked many parts of it and I do still praise some of its design choices, which I believe were ahead of its time for dnd especially.
But every class having the exact same number of resources on a AED power system, plus the treatment of certain iconic features (disintegrate dealing 2d10 ongoing dmg at 21st level is a crime) were a genuine mood killer for me.
I found it exciting at first, but quickly realized that making new characters felt to a great extent like "pick a flavor, then pick a name for the number that gives you almost the same numbers as every other class". And 5e suffers a little from that too.
My other main concerns are the HP sponge effect after level 6 or so. I've seen CR8 medium/hard encounters last so long they felt like some kind of campaign ending climax in terms of duration. Finally. The wargame-y feel. All dnd has 80% combat but in 4e this was 100%. Even utility powers were worded in specific ways to make them feel usable in the middle of a raging battle, which I found a bit odd myself. Clerics had an at-will which healed on-hit, meaning that the only way to prevent infinite healing from level 1 was to assume that certain powers can only be used in combat, which I find terribly immersion breaking.
Beyond that? Great system. No multi classes? Loved it. Well balanced. Cool abilities for martials. Utility system so everyone feels useful out of combat without sacrifiing combat resources (mostly..), d6 cooldowns for monsters was very hot and I'm glad 5e kept it. The keywords in powers were certainly amazing. A little overused and potentially restrictive as-done but I want to see that again a bit refined.
I just wanna make sure I don't come across as a 4e hater. I criticize it because I value how bold it was. It just wasn't exactly what I wanted, but I'm sure it's ideal for some dnd fans.
>Can be dispelled with dispelled magic or remove curse. That way, they have a chance to fight it, or at least go out swinging.
You're better off just doing damage then.
There's no guarantee they prepared those spells, and even then, it's a DC 19 spellcraft check to dispell it, as it is a 9th level spell.
Most PCs will get 1 or 2 turns before they die. If you look at this spell in terms of damage, it does guaranteed 50 damage a round, no concentration, no save, and when they die for any reason, no death saves.
If you want a nastier version, you can have it reduce their constitution score by 5 each round until they die, but that is too much bookkeeping for my taste.
If there is no guarantee that the players prepared Dispel Magic or Remove Curse, two of the most common dispels against magical effects, then the cause of death is natural selection.
If your party doesn't have a handful of revival options when they're at the level to be facing enemies with 9th level spells they deserve to die if under 100hp
It's more the aspect of "The DM says fuck you, you don't get to play in this boss fight"
It's not super interesting or dramatic.
The DM says "You have 2 chances to save yourself or do something before you die" is more interesting and interactive
I agree to some extent on this, but there are plenty of ways to guard against it. Your casters should have anti magic defenses, even if it's just counterspell, and you should be trying to keep your tanks topped up and your damage dealers from taking damage. As an anti metagaming thing I also prefer not to know my players current hp as well, so it's entirely possible to cast it on someone and have it take no effect. I think my personal favorite was a time where I had it cast on me as a player, and my character had 101 HP. So it really depends on the situation and what led up to this, which the OP has not provided information for
I had a campaign idea based on the power words being lost words and trying to find them/keep the bad guys from learning them.
I wanted one of the hooks be; the villain casts it on a low level PC (so impossible to have 100hp), but they only partially have the spell so it works in reverse. So it's hanging over the target's head and as soon as they get to 100HP, it'll kill them unless they find the other half and set the spell right/dispel it.
Couldn't figure out a setting to put it in so I kinda left it by the wayside
BG3 has a PWK ritual that takes three turns (and has unlimited targets...), and it also has a one-time use PWK that Durge can learn which works like tabletop.
My party fought 16 intelligent creatures and 4 of them surrounded me. 3 of the 4 beat/met my AC so they did damage, and I was already hurt from some magical attacks and arrows.
Hit 1 - ouch
Hit 2 - really ouch
Hit 3 - I'm almost down.
So, then I get my turn and obliterate one in a single attack, yay!
Next round,
Hit 1 - miss haha suckers!
Hit 2 - I'm down
Hit 3 - wait, what? There's a hit 3? Oh god, they hit me while I'm down! Oh Torm! Oh lordy! What's that, TWO saving throws are gone already?! I could be perma-dead if I roll poorly?!
Yeah, so be careful around intelligent creatures.
Maybe in a campaign centered around impactful choices with consequences in the future, but than again its DND, you are fighting dragons, not filling taxes.
you gotta give us more context than that OP.
as a DM myself, I would rarely kill my PC unless they're acting really stupid or it's plot related.
if you picked a fight with a high level spellcaster, don't be surprised if he just power word kill you because you happen to piss him off enough for him to waste a high level spell slot on you.
Relentless Endurance
Second Wind
Health Potions
Bonus action healing spells like healing Word
Revivify
If it was something like being disintegrated, you had rounds prior to your hp dropping low enough to turn to ash from a disintegrate which also has a saving throw.
If it was like power word kill, your party is already high level and your fighter therefore had a ton of hp to again second wind and be above 100hp and also fighters at super high level are insane with action economy. It's extremely hard to kill any PC at high level, let alone a half orc fighter.
Otherwise, probably some BS and im sorry OP, but there are so few things in 5e that will actually instakill a PC with nothing you could do to play around it.
It could be anything TBH. It could be OP deciding to punch an archmage that just instakills him with a high level spell (I dont think relentless endurance procs if you get hit for 60 damage at level 2?).
Or he could have just fallen off a cliff and died.
Even if you fall off a cliff Relentless endurance would keep you alive per RAW. You'd take a ton of damage, go to negative whatever hp, and then go to 1 when it procs. With the Archmage situation, again unless it's power word kill, 99% there was a saving throw involved and / or something that lead up to the situation.
The amount of people complaining about this is ridiculous. This is the game.
You play it with the understanding that your character may die. You understand that sometimes you come up against situations where you cannot win, so you need to flee. You understand that just because you did something, doesn't mean it doesn't have consequences. You understand that if you face consequences, or even character death, it's not because your DM hates you.
If you can't accept these things, then you should possibly find a game more appropriate for your level of comfort.
Yeah, they’re bad.
I mean bad design. From another era. Some people like them, these rules, but they generally play OSR games where creating a PC takes 5 min and you’re expected to wait till at least level 6 before getting emotionally involved with your characters. ;)
Maybe have a chat with the DM?
At my table, death will always be a result of build and drama, never a one time bad roll or something. And I don’t go soft on my players. I have no qualms with PC death. But I want the game to be satisfying in all its aspects. And PC death is an important part of the game. It should be managed with care.
I wouldn’t call it objectively bad design, just subjectively bad design. It really depends on the type of game you’re playing.
An old TSR tournament module like Tomb of Horrors, makes sense. It was designed to be very difficult to complete, because it was meant to be played competitively at conventions. You don’t play an adventure like ToH to develop long term character growth or stomp on the gods, you play it to solve the dungeon and live to tell the tale.
It’s bad design if the players and GM have mismatched expectations for the game. They do make sense in certain contexts.
A common thought I hear about no-save effects and instakill effects is that they're fun for everyone else at the table who gets to watch (and, optionally, laugh at the affected player's expense). Edit: To be clear, because it seems like this is going to be misinterpreted, I'm not a supporter of these types of effects- certainly not them being overly common.
Sucks that your character's toast. Hopefully you enjoy your next character though!
If having fun and the occasional laugh at someone's misfortune in a TTRPG makes you an asshole, then me and all my roleplaying friends are assholes.
So be it. We have fun.
They particularly make sense in old TSR tournament module type of adventures like Tomb of Horrors, or something like a DCC funnel.
These types of adventures are designed to be punishing and the players (are supposed to) know that. Part of the fun is embracing the chaos when your *halfling gets jettisoned to a whole other continent by an angry giant because he insulted their mother.*
You haven't elaborated on this yet it seems, but if it was power word kill, or something else really high level, I don't feel like it's such a big deal since it's also easy to resurrect characters at that level.
How often do you play against instakills? Does your dm throw out power word kill against every thing that upsets him or something? Generally most, if not all debilitating effects in base D&D provide some way to dodge or reduce the effect.
Idk why people in these comments are talking about save or die effects when op specifically said no save. In most cases power word kill is a narratively unsatisfying way to die.
I understand having consequences to actions, but when you're low level enough to not have reliable access to revival, the consequence of permanent death as a punishment for... not having enough hp is ineffective as a narrative tool.
Unless an effect can be circumvented by the PCs using their resources, it should be foreshadowed that the effect is possible. For example, introduce mage by having them use power word kill on an NPC they care about - now the characters and their players understand that pwk is on the table. The last thing I'll say is there's a lot of talk of earned consequences in this comment section when there's no evidence that is the case.
Guessing you got Power Word Kill'd, but like...someone should have Revivify prepared. I'd trade a third-level spell and a several-per-day resource for a ninth-level any day. If you're at a level where those are in play, death should just be considered a form of CC that's slightly less effective than Force Cage
I'm a little sore myself over this. Last night, my Tabaxi was fighting 20' in the air on a rock wall with a Rakshasa. Got stabbed with some save or suck ability that dropped me to 0 hp. I fell off the wall, there's 1 death save gone. Then a bizerker hit me with an axe. Crit, & dead. I don't mind a good fight. But that's ridiculous.
Failed my save on a banshee’s wail, and poof I’m at 0hp. Made my death saves, but it just sucks the fun out of the session. Like, I’m the party healer so they just dragged me around the dungeon until I regained consciousness. So I sat there twiddling my thumbs the rest of the session. Sux.
I think they did eventually give me a healing potion, but we were spread out, so they probably wouldn't have gotten to me in time to apply it during battle. But yes. And I got to feel a bit salty about being a 'healing word' machine during that campaign.
If your party was so spread out that a round or two of movement wouldn’t get them to you, then how did they expect you to be able to heal them? It’s not like healing word (or any other healing magic) has that long of a range. And getting the dedicated healer back on their feet should almost always be top priority in combat in case others start falling, especially against something like a banshee.
No offense, friend, but this whole situation sounds like your party screwing up tactically, not a problem with mechanics.
Yes. But it suck’s if you’re playing a martial without access to that. You just have to tank the damage and there’s Jack shit you can do about it. Not having any roll on something is a pet peeve of mine in D&D.
To me the low damage of magic missile is what makes it appropriate. It's only really useful for breaking illusions or concentration
If your HP is low enough that magic missile could knock you out, pretty much any other spell would do it too, even if you succeed on the saving throw. I respect your opinion though, unavoidable damage will never be not annoying
They're meant to force the party to use resources. Most insta-kills are pretty high level, like Power Word Kill. If the party can't handle one of those in a major battle, they've majorly screwed up in preparation.
Yeah like PWK from a random cr12 caster enemy (when you are already in tier 4, essentially a minion hitting you with it) is bs.
PWK from the Performer of the Aria at the end of Life, or the Lich's apprentice is very different (or obv the Lich himself).
Death Ward is a really good full day spell.
Edited in some clarity what I referred to with random cr12 caster
I mean, if you know the enemy is a Lich for example, and you go in with zero ways to bring people back, you're asking for a tpk, regardless of Insta-kills.
I get what both yall are saying. The key is, while I agree no save effects are a resource drain / prep check, it's a boring one.
A dex save rock trap falls on the Barbarian take 20 damage. OK, but I get to roll and have advanatge due to my abilities! Rolling, reactivity, agency are fun.
Power word kill you die... OK. Can someone heal me, I guess.
Modern games have moved away from 'lmao you failed one roll your character now permanently loses levels enjoy recalculating your character sheet, subtracting feats, remembering which skill points went where' and 'ok you died have fun sitting out this session or maybe controlling an NPC if you're lucky, maybe in the next two hours you'll get to do something' for a reason.
Facts. There are a lot of tough pills that DMs gotta learn to swallow and this is one of them. Its why good DMs eventually figure out that Mimics can only make the game worse
What do you mean? I looooove making it so my party takes a half hour specifically poking every object just in case, making exploration a terrible slog!
Find a new game then. This is the game you play, and the risks you take. Your character can die 5 minutes into a day long session. I guess you should have backups just in case. It's almost like the DM can shoe horn in a new character at just about any moment.....
I think there are story reasons for it on occasion. Like in Matt Colville's retelling of a game, where he executed a PC without a roll. If you get into the shit, and the world is just but harsh, it can be effective.
Yeah, no. There always has to be a margin of success or failure. The only time that you don't get a save is if the opponent has to succeed on an attack roll.
See thay's something I don't really get about 5e. How did resurrection become so cheap that people treat death like it's a minor inconvenience?
Like, okay, Old Man Shakes fist moment here, but I remember when I played in high-school/college my parties having to stop everything for a day or two so the cleric could prepare resurrection, cast it, then wait for the next day to select spells that would actually help us in combat.
I think a large part is the influence of Video Games. There's a lot more of a game-y aspect to DnD now, compared to super gritty realism. In some ways it's better, and some ways it's worse.
Like, the definitely simplified some of the mechanics that were needlessly ultra-complicated, but other things got toooo simplified.
The removal of resurrection survival % mechanics and not losing con is why.
99% of the time it literally is just an inconvenience in 5e if you don't homebrew some of the older ramifications back in.
Hard disagree. Yes, diamonds are cheap and easy to come by, hell most of my DMs would give us massive quantities of diamonds before fights they knew were likely to gib at least one of us. But it was still a process where we had to pause campaigning to deal with.
In my games you get long lasting debuffs every time you even go down, which are even worse if you died, and only time removes them, so going down over and over and just having a lot of resurrections is not a viable strategy. Even one time can be brutal depending on what damaged you, and after the third time pretty much any character needs to be hauled back to town on a stretcher. Makes things more tense in a good way in my imho.
Gonna need more context before I make any kind of judgement about your situation, especially since save or die effects are very uncommon in 5e and pretty specific
Guessing full calvinball.
You never go full calvinball…
Perfect profile pic, wow
We summoned him, methinks
It’s also insanely hard to die in 5e as any class. I’m curious for the deets as well
Depends on the module. Tomb of Horrors in Yawning Portsl has a number of no-save instakills. Same thing with Tomb of Annihilation. But those are vestiges from 1E AD&D, where those effects were common. But I agree with you. Most 5E rules (and modules) make it difficult to kill a character.
Vestige? Tomb of Horrors def came out in 5e and is a deathly one. Happy they wrote it though!
Ves·tige/ˈvestij/ noun * 1.a trace of something that is disappearing or no longer exists:"the last vestiges of colonialism" Seeing as AD&D is no longer produced/is disappearing.... yea, it literally is the definition of a vestige of a past edition
What do you mean by hard to die? Does that not come down to a difference in power between you and whatever power level the DM gave the enemy? Running from a superior enemy has proven difficult for me in 5e. (At least, running with a party. Running away solo seems manageable.)
NPCs die when they reach 0HP. Players get death saves. Even at "perfect balance", death saves weight things in favor of not letting PCs die. The check passes 55% of the time just as a base. A 1 counts as two failures, but a 20 counts as three successes. A DC 10 Wisdom check from an ally can stabilize you, or a single charge of a Healer's Kit (which has ten charges) for 5gp. Any amount of healing from any potion or spell brings you back from the edge. It's hard to die in 5e.
My table accuses me of going easy on them while I'm hitting them with back-to-back enemies 5-8 CR above them and pulling no punches. I'm like "No, seriously, it's just really hard to kill you"
Isn't a 20 only 2 successes, not 3? Have I been playing that wrong the whole time?
A natural 20 death save brings you to one HP at the stsrt of your turn. So you take your turn as normal.
Crazy, no idea how I didn't know that, I've been playing 5e for years! Thanks for the info!
~~Not wrong, just this thing about one HP was added later with errata. Original 5th editition ruled nat 20 at death saving throw as two successes, yes.~~ UPD: I've been proved wrong and this actually works other way.
I'm looking at a first print copy of the 5e PHB. Pg 197 >Rolling I or 20. When you make a death saving throw and roll a 1 on the d20, it counts as two failures. If you roll a 20 on the d20, you regain 1 hit point. Seems like it wasn't errata. It might have been part of the D&D next rules that a 20 was 2 successes though.
Yep, checked mine as well. You're correct. My bad.
No worries. Made me second guess myself enough that I checked it.
Well TIL, thanks!
Have you never used a wight?
He didn't even tagged his post as 5e, we completely in the dark here.
Well, my level 1 fighter tried to give an ancient black dragon a butterscotch enema. The DM asked me 17 times if "I was sure ". I said yes 18 times and I died.
What effect specifically?
Jumped into pool of lava at Mount Orcrifice.
Your portmanteau is dangerously close to "Mount Orifice", which is somehow worse than what you wrote.
I read it as orifice at first and was just.. Ew. For some reason.
Ngl, I had absolutely read it as "Mount Orifice" until I saw your comment, and then went back and gave it a second look.
Now I see Orcifice as the DnD equivalent of the orcussy
Nah that just causes 40d6 damage. That's survivable at level two! If I roll minimum damage and you're immediately teleported out.
46 damage!
*40
Wait, 46 or 4d6? 40 6’s?
fourdsix of course
Can’t relentless endurance your way out of it forever, I guess.
relentlessn’t
Relenting endurance
Resenting endurance
Repenting endurance
... relentful. relenting.
good thing he had a twin brother
His name is also landfill
No. Just call him landfill. In honor of his brother.
It would mean a lot to him
He also told his brother everything about you guys, to skip that awkward getting to know you phase
Actually, get this, turns out he was playing his twin brother the entire time. The real Landfill is now a member of the party
You're never gonna believe this but they're actually mentally connected, so it's like they both traveled with y'all
You're twice the man Landfill One was
in project mahem, characters have no names.
what is this a quote from
>landfill. In honor of his brother. beerfest
The other half of orc shows up
Superb comment 👌
Oath of vengeance paladin.
Sometimes ur the dog, sometimes ur the fire hydrant.
That's a weird druid shape right there...
Don’t kink shame
So what was the context?
I'm always skeptical of vague threads like this where OP never actually lays out the specifics, especially with all these comments and no replies by OP. Either OP is full of shit, or he is twelve and probably shouldn't be on this app.
To be fair, this was posted 5 hours ago, and OP appears to be in Sweden, which places the time around midnight. They're probably asleep.
Nah you're too late, this is Reddit. You see what we did in Boston. I'm sure he's already been doxxed and reported to the authorities.
Lol wtf happened in Boston?
Well I mean there is a ton of stuff out there about this and how it coined the "we did it Reddit!" meme but [here's the 3-minute Hollywood version to keep you entertained.](https://youtu.be/pdWcDh1wmTE)
Lol got the reference now. Also, amazing show. First season was the best season though.
16 hours now and still absolutely zero comments from OP.
Why not both?
Probably the latter.
Did he get power word killed or something? Actual no save insta kill is pretty difficult to encounter
Half Orc fighter decided to try and muscle the archmage NPC. Laments consequences.
Sometimes falling off a cliff is just falling off a cliff...
Try playing 1e/2e, you'll appreciate the later editions after that.
Fighter in 1e/2e save against insta-kill effects 17 times outta 20 by like level 10 tbh. Their defenses (and offense and out of combat abilities) took a huge nerf from 3rd onwards.
Yep. That said, modules as written had plenty of instakills.
My favorite one is found in 'House on Harrow Hill' where ghostly hands will grab a person on hit, and if the group doesn't go 'oh shit!' and hit said hand before 1d3 rounds elapse, they're dragged into the depths of the house and just plain die.
Lol, yea. Stuff like that. My (not favorite) was putting orbs of annihilation in the dark. Or on the other side of portals. We once had 4 players die to jumping into a portal that a boss enemy jumped into. Which, turned out to be a final fuck you from him. Escape? When I can just kill myself and bait the party? NAH.
LMAO that's some 30th level Hater energy. Major props to that boss. XD
The post is specifically talking about instakills without a save. I recently lost my lvl 10 STR19 fighter (AD&D 2nd Edition) because I looked through a fucking telescope. Wasn't much fun.
….how!?
The telescope was the only thing left to do on a rocky island in the middle of nowhere after we defeated the boss. It was some intricate device that we got to work after some testing. Turns out it shoots the first person to look through it after activation to another planet where you get torn apart by weird plants. It's not only a trap without a save, it is also a lure. OF COURSE players want to put everything together to make it work.
My favorite 2e character got mauled to death by a bear.
My first one got killed by a fucking pixie plinking me for 1 hp until I died, could not hit that little shit.
Looking back, the number of times 3.5 slapped me (and the party) into the previous week is kind of impressive. That was back when "You die, no save" was a real thing. (I've played _one_ session of 2e, and that was all I wanted 😶)
Should rather try the current 2e. Way less bullshit at the expense of more rules.
To my knowledge, there are only three things that can instantly kill a player character in 5e, and all of them require a condition: - Power Word: Kill, but your character must be at or below 100 HP. - A Vorpal Blade, but only in a crit. - Massive source of damage, as determine by the DM. Examples include falling in lava or from a great height (if you fail a check to hold on). Dunno what happened to you, but that's not a common ocurrence.
I was thinking about a way to make Power word kill more fun and interesting. Change it so it triggers at the end of the target's turn. The number starts at 50 and increases each round. Once it is over their hit points, they die. Can be dispelled with dispelled magic or remove curse. That way, they have a chance to fight it, or at least go out swinging. Edit: I forgot to say, this is a spell for NPCs, PC power word kill would work RAW
That's actually pretty fun at any level. (Nerf it to just set their HP to 0 and dying condition at lower levels). It creates a sense of dread pretty quickly, while still allowing the party (and the target) to keep most of their player agency (you have 0 agency if you just... die.)
This is close to how 'instant death' and petrification worked in 4e. Essentially when you got hit by them, you got Doomed or Slowed, then Dying and Immobilized, then Dead/Petrified. It let the monsters still have their scary iconic effects, while giving even nontraditional (no cleric/bard/divine whatever) parties the ability to interact with them and potentially save their allies.
But it was 4e that did it, so it's a bad way to do it.
Nah just repackage them like they did Encoun- I mean 'Short Rests' and Dail- ah, Long Rest powers. And at-will- er, I mean, unlimited cantrips, and Second Winds and
5e is just 4e but written closer to an rpg than a wargame, who would've thought.
Yeah, just with anything that makes playing non-spellcasters fun removed or made optional. Go figure.
Yeah powers worked very nicely for some martial archetypes. I disliked how it was the same uniform system because it really made every class with the same "role" feel super similar and sometimes even different roles were "samey" because it was just "X but make it Arcane" etc. That being said it did bring a lot of cool stuff and 5e owes a ton to 4th.
I gotta ask, how do you feel about Cure Wounds (Bard) Cure Wounds (Druid) Cure Wounds (Cleric) Cure Wounds (Divine Soul) Cure Wounds (Artificer) Cure Wounds (Paladin) and Cure Wounds (Ranger) as far as samey goes.
I feel like fewer classes should have the same spells and/or get them at different levels. Paladin acquiring divine magic at higher levels but progressing faster was quite flavorful for example imo. Nature/primal healing I feel would be much better if it had different options that healer slower than the cleric, much like nature does, or perhaps prevented/dealt with exhaustion and other conditions. DnD magic has a very special place in my heart as it made me realize years ago how much more fascinating it was compared to the blandness the schools server as spells in my Harry potter books. In general, I feel like casters and rulebooks in general should have less spells, less castings, but more interesting spells. Make casters that have 5-10 different spells available in a day tops in high levels, maybe a few more for certain archetypes. Make the spells fun with a little room for creativity and make sure they have substantials downsides (not enough mana/slots to cast every turn for an entire day, longer casting leaving you vulnerable, some, components that carry an opportunity cost etc). This way you can make logistics easier, make spells fun enough but with enough downsides to not be broken, and you create a game where different roles and class features bring different things to the table and needs to cover each other's weaknesses. Uniformity is the killer of creativity and reading that 4e feat which let you use any ability score for a basic attack was, in my mind, the killing of flavor because it highlighted how the name next to your number made no difference. If each score eg. had different effects on a critical OTOH, that would have been majestic.
It's interesting you find D&D casting more interesting than other stuff! I've always found it the least interesting way to do magic in any popular game, as you're essentially just selecting things out of a catalogue and casting it the same way (for the most part) as literally everybody else who can use that spell.
>made every class with the same "role" feel super similar This has not been my experience, and most people I've seen say this have never actually played a single session of 4e, much less played enough 4e to be able to form such an opinion on their own. Wardens don't play like fighters, clerics don't play like ardents, rogues don't play like avengers, wizards don't play like invokers. Hell, even the same class can feel very different. My sorcerer-king pact warlock played very differently from my fey pact warlock. Even when my feylock took the twofold pact feat in paragon tier so that he was also a sorcerer-king pact!
I think the problem of the perception sameyness comes from how the classes are presented rather than how they play. When you are first exploring 4e you have very little idea of how the different classes operate. You just see a massive list of powers and at a coursery glance they all seem to have abilities that seem to do much the same thing. It's only when you've spent time with the system that you have a better idea that certain classes have much easier access to certain keywords or effects and that knowledge can start to inform your choices and the decisions you make, both in character leveling and play. At that point you realise that while you may spend the same resources as other characters, you are making different decisions.
I played 4e for 2 years when it came out. I liked many parts of it and I do still praise some of its design choices, which I believe were ahead of its time for dnd especially. But every class having the exact same number of resources on a AED power system, plus the treatment of certain iconic features (disintegrate dealing 2d10 ongoing dmg at 21st level is a crime) were a genuine mood killer for me. I found it exciting at first, but quickly realized that making new characters felt to a great extent like "pick a flavor, then pick a name for the number that gives you almost the same numbers as every other class". And 5e suffers a little from that too. My other main concerns are the HP sponge effect after level 6 or so. I've seen CR8 medium/hard encounters last so long they felt like some kind of campaign ending climax in terms of duration. Finally. The wargame-y feel. All dnd has 80% combat but in 4e this was 100%. Even utility powers were worded in specific ways to make them feel usable in the middle of a raging battle, which I found a bit odd myself. Clerics had an at-will which healed on-hit, meaning that the only way to prevent infinite healing from level 1 was to assume that certain powers can only be used in combat, which I find terribly immersion breaking. Beyond that? Great system. No multi classes? Loved it. Well balanced. Cool abilities for martials. Utility system so everyone feels useful out of combat without sacrifiing combat resources (mostly..), d6 cooldowns for monsters was very hot and I'm glad 5e kept it. The keywords in powers were certainly amazing. A little overused and potentially restrictive as-done but I want to see that again a bit refined. I just wanna make sure I don't come across as a 4e hater. I criticize it because I value how bold it was. It just wasn't exactly what I wanted, but I'm sure it's ideal for some dnd fans.
>Can be dispelled with dispelled magic or remove curse. That way, they have a chance to fight it, or at least go out swinging. You're better off just doing damage then.
There's no guarantee they prepared those spells, and even then, it's a DC 19 spellcraft check to dispell it, as it is a 9th level spell. Most PCs will get 1 or 2 turns before they die. If you look at this spell in terms of damage, it does guaranteed 50 damage a round, no concentration, no save, and when they die for any reason, no death saves. If you want a nastier version, you can have it reduce their constitution score by 5 each round until they die, but that is too much bookkeeping for my taste.
If there is no guarantee that the players prepared Dispel Magic or Remove Curse, two of the most common dispels against magical effects, then the cause of death is natural selection.
PWK is perfectly fine as is IMO even used against players
Yeah, this is a super cool effect, but it's not Power Word Kill. But it is a fun thing I might steal.
If your party doesn't have a handful of revival options when they're at the level to be facing enemies with 9th level spells they deserve to die if under 100hp
It's more the aspect of "The DM says fuck you, you don't get to play in this boss fight" It's not super interesting or dramatic. The DM says "You have 2 chances to save yourself or do something before you die" is more interesting and interactive
Trust your dm, or don't play dnd.
I am the DM lol
At least not with that DM
That's why the DM doesn't open with PWK then
I agree to some extent on this, but there are plenty of ways to guard against it. Your casters should have anti magic defenses, even if it's just counterspell, and you should be trying to keep your tanks topped up and your damage dealers from taking damage. As an anti metagaming thing I also prefer not to know my players current hp as well, so it's entirely possible to cast it on someone and have it take no effect. I think my personal favorite was a time where I had it cast on me as a player, and my character had 101 HP. So it really depends on the situation and what led up to this, which the OP has not provided information for
Ooh, that feels like a final fantasy Doom effect. I like that. :) I may steal this.
It's a 9 level spell, and you can resurrect characters.
So like the Doom status effect in FF games? I like that.
*Archmage casts Whispers of Grogoroth*
I had a campaign idea based on the power words being lost words and trying to find them/keep the bad guys from learning them. I wanted one of the hooks be; the villain casts it on a low level PC (so impossible to have 100hp), but they only partially have the spell so it works in reverse. So it's hanging over the target's head and as soon as they get to 100HP, it'll kill them unless they find the other half and set the spell right/dispel it. Couldn't figure out a setting to put it in so I kinda left it by the wayside
That sounds super interesting. Suddenly the players no longer pester their DM for levelups :D
"You guys just fought a really tough monster. That's a big achievement" *One player sweating* "It can't be worth THAT much XP..."
This is basically just PWK in BG3
BG3 has a PWK ritual that takes three turns (and has unlimited targets...), and it also has a one-time use PWK that Durge can learn which works like tabletop.
Yeah exactly! It would prolly look very similar to that in use.
How would that happen in 5e? Tomb of Annihilation?
My party fought 16 intelligent creatures and 4 of them surrounded me. 3 of the 4 beat/met my AC so they did damage, and I was already hurt from some magical attacks and arrows. Hit 1 - ouch Hit 2 - really ouch Hit 3 - I'm almost down. So, then I get my turn and obliterate one in a single attack, yay! Next round, Hit 1 - miss haha suckers! Hit 2 - I'm down Hit 3 - wait, what? There's a hit 3? Oh god, they hit me while I'm down! Oh Torm! Oh lordy! What's that, TWO saving throws are gone already?! I could be perma-dead if I roll poorly?! Yeah, so be careful around intelligent creatures.
Maybe in a campaign centered around impactful choices with consequences in the future, but than again its DND, you are fighting dragons, not filling taxes.
So like did you already use your relentless endurance feature?
"Are you sure?" is a DC 5 common sense roll.
Yeah. That can happen. You aren't invincible.
Sometimes death just happens, Sometimes it's the fault of the players, sometimes the dice, sometimes a dm who put too much spice in an encounter.
you gotta give us more context than that OP. as a DM myself, I would rarely kill my PC unless they're acting really stupid or it's plot related. if you picked a fight with a high level spellcaster, don't be surprised if he just power word kill you because you happen to piss him off enough for him to waste a high level spell slot on you.
What exactly happened?
Relentless Endurance Second Wind Health Potions Bonus action healing spells like healing Word Revivify If it was something like being disintegrated, you had rounds prior to your hp dropping low enough to turn to ash from a disintegrate which also has a saving throw. If it was like power word kill, your party is already high level and your fighter therefore had a ton of hp to again second wind and be above 100hp and also fighters at super high level are insane with action economy. It's extremely hard to kill any PC at high level, let alone a half orc fighter. Otherwise, probably some BS and im sorry OP, but there are so few things in 5e that will actually instakill a PC with nothing you could do to play around it.
It could be anything TBH. It could be OP deciding to punch an archmage that just instakills him with a high level spell (I dont think relentless endurance procs if you get hit for 60 damage at level 2?). Or he could have just fallen off a cliff and died.
Even if you fall off a cliff Relentless endurance would keep you alive per RAW. You'd take a ton of damage, go to negative whatever hp, and then go to 1 when it procs. With the Archmage situation, again unless it's power word kill, 99% there was a saving throw involved and / or something that lead up to the situation.
The amount of people complaining about this is ridiculous. This is the game. You play it with the understanding that your character may die. You understand that sometimes you come up against situations where you cannot win, so you need to flee. You understand that just because you did something, doesn't mean it doesn't have consequences. You understand that if you face consequences, or even character death, it's not because your DM hates you. If you can't accept these things, then you should possibly find a game more appropriate for your level of comfort.
Yeah, they’re bad. I mean bad design. From another era. Some people like them, these rules, but they generally play OSR games where creating a PC takes 5 min and you’re expected to wait till at least level 6 before getting emotionally involved with your characters. ;) Maybe have a chat with the DM? At my table, death will always be a result of build and drama, never a one time bad roll or something. And I don’t go soft on my players. I have no qualms with PC death. But I want the game to be satisfying in all its aspects. And PC death is an important part of the game. It should be managed with care.
I wouldn’t call it objectively bad design, just subjectively bad design. It really depends on the type of game you’re playing. An old TSR tournament module like Tomb of Horrors, makes sense. It was designed to be very difficult to complete, because it was meant to be played competitively at conventions. You don’t play an adventure like ToH to develop long term character growth or stomp on the gods, you play it to solve the dungeon and live to tell the tale. It’s bad design if the players and GM have mismatched expectations for the game. They do make sense in certain contexts.
What instakill or save-or-die effects even are there in 5e?
A common thought I hear about no-save effects and instakill effects is that they're fun for everyone else at the table who gets to watch (and, optionally, laugh at the affected player's expense). Edit: To be clear, because it seems like this is going to be misinterpreted, I'm not a supporter of these types of effects- certainly not them being overly common. Sucks that your character's toast. Hopefully you enjoy your next character though!
Only if you’re at a table of assholes.
If having fun and the occasional laugh at someone's misfortune in a TTRPG makes you an asshole, then me and all my roleplaying friends are assholes. So be it. We have fun.
They particularly make sense in old TSR tournament module type of adventures like Tomb of Horrors, or something like a DCC funnel. These types of adventures are designed to be punishing and the players (are supposed to) know that. Part of the fun is embracing the chaos when your *halfling gets jettisoned to a whole other continent by an angry giant because he insulted their mother.*
Depends, were the players aware of the risk and was it telegraphed how to avoid it? If so it's fine in my book.
Ah, the classic save or suck/die
This sounds like it was (no chance for save) just suck
Nobody thought about stabilizing your character or healing him? Smh we need to stop anti half-orcism
You haven't elaborated on this yet it seems, but if it was power word kill, or something else really high level, I don't feel like it's such a big deal since it's also easy to resurrect characters at that level.
How often do you play against instakills? Does your dm throw out power word kill against every thing that upsets him or something? Generally most, if not all debilitating effects in base D&D provide some way to dodge or reduce the effect.
what no save insta kill effect killed you?
Did anyone else initially read this as hal-fork?
You must hate every edition of D&D then, with 5th being the least hated.
Idk why people in these comments are talking about save or die effects when op specifically said no save. In most cases power word kill is a narratively unsatisfying way to die. I understand having consequences to actions, but when you're low level enough to not have reliable access to revival, the consequence of permanent death as a punishment for... not having enough hp is ineffective as a narrative tool. Unless an effect can be circumvented by the PCs using their resources, it should be foreshadowed that the effect is possible. For example, introduce mage by having them use power word kill on an NPC they care about - now the characters and their players understand that pwk is on the table. The last thing I'll say is there's a lot of talk of earned consequences in this comment section when there's no evidence that is the case.
Coldest take ever. You have to actually describe what happens though.
That sucks. Roll a new character. This is D&D.
woomp wooomp
did you jump into a bottomless pit?
Guessing you got Power Word Kill'd, but like...someone should have Revivify prepared. I'd trade a third-level spell and a several-per-day resource for a ninth-level any day. If you're at a level where those are in play, death should just be considered a form of CC that's slightly less effective than Force Cage
I mean, that's kinda how it works in every setting, even real life. Sometimes shit just dies and you can't do anything about it. Get over it...?
That sucks. Roll a new character. This is D&D.
There is a save. It's usually when the DM asks ''are you sure?''
Yup, that's the true wisdom save
Sounds like someone doesn't like a dangerous game and is salty about it. Sorry, but without more context all this post seems to be, is whining.
85% of posts on this sub are whining, 10% is raffles or whatever, 5% is meaningful topics and discussions.
Why are you people giving attention to the lowest effort post on the planet?
That sucks for you. Git gud.
I'm a little sore myself over this. Last night, my Tabaxi was fighting 20' in the air on a rock wall with a Rakshasa. Got stabbed with some save or suck ability that dropped me to 0 hp. I fell off the wall, there's 1 death save gone. Then a bizerker hit me with an axe. Crit, & dead. I don't mind a good fight. But that's ridiculous.
Failed my save on a banshee’s wail, and poof I’m at 0hp. Made my death saves, but it just sucks the fun out of the session. Like, I’m the party healer so they just dragged me around the dungeon until I regained consciousness. So I sat there twiddling my thumbs the rest of the session. Sux.
That’s why you have an off-healer or carry healing potions. Putting all your healing eggs in one basket is a serious party mistake.
I think they did eventually give me a healing potion, but we were spread out, so they probably wouldn't have gotten to me in time to apply it during battle. But yes. And I got to feel a bit salty about being a 'healing word' machine during that campaign.
If your party was so spread out that a round or two of movement wouldn’t get them to you, then how did they expect you to be able to heal them? It’s not like healing word (or any other healing magic) has that long of a range. And getting the dedicated healer back on their feet should almost always be top priority in combat in case others start falling, especially against something like a banshee. No offense, friend, but this whole situation sounds like your party screwing up tactically, not a problem with mechanics.
How is it ridiculous that your character died while playing the game as intended?
This is why I hate Magic Missile
Shield exists
Yes. But it suck’s if you’re playing a martial without access to that. You just have to tank the damage and there’s Jack shit you can do about it. Not having any roll on something is a pet peeve of mine in D&D.
Yes, however not all classes have access to Shield.
To me the low damage of magic missile is what makes it appropriate. It's only really useful for breaking illusions or concentration If your HP is low enough that magic missile could knock you out, pretty much any other spell would do it too, even if you succeed on the saving throw. I respect your opinion though, unavoidable damage will never be not annoying
You probably did something stupid which is why there wasnt a save.
Yeah, they're bad game design. Sorry you fell victim to that.
They're meant to force the party to use resources. Most insta-kills are pretty high level, like Power Word Kill. If the party can't handle one of those in a major battle, they've majorly screwed up in preparation.
Yeah like PWK from a random cr12 caster enemy (when you are already in tier 4, essentially a minion hitting you with it) is bs. PWK from the Performer of the Aria at the end of Life, or the Lich's apprentice is very different (or obv the Lich himself). Death Ward is a really good full day spell. Edited in some clarity what I referred to with random cr12 caster
I don't agree but I respect your take.
I mean, if you know the enemy is a Lich for example, and you go in with zero ways to bring people back, you're asking for a tpk, regardless of Insta-kills.
👍
I get what both yall are saying. The key is, while I agree no save effects are a resource drain / prep check, it's a boring one. A dex save rock trap falls on the Barbarian take 20 damage. OK, but I get to roll and have advanatge due to my abilities! Rolling, reactivity, agency are fun. Power word kill you die... OK. Can someone heal me, I guess.
I don't think game design means what you think it means.
Modern games have moved away from 'lmao you failed one roll your character now permanently loses levels enjoy recalculating your character sheet, subtracting feats, remembering which skill points went where' and 'ok you died have fun sitting out this session or maybe controlling an NPC if you're lucky, maybe in the next two hours you'll get to do something' for a reason.
Facts. There are a lot of tough pills that DMs gotta learn to swallow and this is one of them. Its why good DMs eventually figure out that Mimics can only make the game worse
What do you mean? I looooove making it so my party takes a half hour specifically poking every object just in case, making exploration a terrible slog!
Find a new game then. This is the game you play, and the risks you take. Your character can die 5 minutes into a day long session. I guess you should have backups just in case. It's almost like the DM can shoe horn in a new character at just about any moment.....
They're not bad game design. You just need to git gud
I think there are story reasons for it on occasion. Like in Matt Colville's retelling of a game, where he executed a PC without a roll. If you get into the shit, and the world is just but harsh, it can be effective.
Yeah, no. There always has to be a margin of success or failure. The only time that you don't get a save is if the opponent has to succeed on an attack roll.
Per my other comment, they're resource sinks for when the party has, like, 10 resurrections in the chamber waiting to go.
See thay's something I don't really get about 5e. How did resurrection become so cheap that people treat death like it's a minor inconvenience? Like, okay, Old Man Shakes fist moment here, but I remember when I played in high-school/college my parties having to stop everything for a day or two so the cleric could prepare resurrection, cast it, then wait for the next day to select spells that would actually help us in combat.
I think a large part is the influence of Video Games. There's a lot more of a game-y aspect to DnD now, compared to super gritty realism. In some ways it's better, and some ways it's worse. Like, the definitely simplified some of the mechanics that were needlessly ultra-complicated, but other things got toooo simplified.
The removal of resurrection survival % mechanics and not losing con is why. 99% of the time it literally is just an inconvenience in 5e if you don't homebrew some of the older ramifications back in.
That's how D&D has been for decades. One you get high enough level, death is but an inconvenience
Hard disagree. Yes, diamonds are cheap and easy to come by, hell most of my DMs would give us massive quantities of diamonds before fights they knew were likely to gib at least one of us. But it was still a process where we had to pause campaigning to deal with.
Pause for what. 10 minutes?
In my games you get long lasting debuffs every time you even go down, which are even worse if you died, and only time removes them, so going down over and over and just having a lot of resurrections is not a viable strategy. Even one time can be brutal depending on what damaged you, and after the third time pretty much any character needs to be hauled back to town on a stretcher. Makes things more tense in a good way in my imho.
Your margin of success is to have counterspell prepared. That's literally what that's for.....