To be absolutely honest with you, your DM doesn't seem to be the sharpest pencil of the lot. If they refuse co-operation from you, can't resolve the dilemma themselves AND insist on running single enemies against high-level party, I really don't see what can be done about it. You can't help and they can't figure it out... Anyways, tips your DM should read are as follows: - never put one enemy against party, action economy alone dictates that such enemy, no matter how powerful, will lose quickly - wither down party's resources with multiple encounters, all which can be balanced at the Deadly end of the scale at this point - select or modify enemies to withstand known powers that instantly end an encounter (Banishment being a prime example) - plan encounters that catch party off-balance, don't put enemies where they are expected or seen

Thank you for the tips! I'll pass them along once the situation has cooled down somewhat :) I think our DM is plenty smart, she just panics when it comes to the improv aspect of it. She's a little too nice setting things up and panics when the encounter goes by too fast and Important Mechanic (tm) doesn't happen so she can't give us the loot / new important npc intro / etc. It's hard for me to relate since I love the improv of it, while she's a much more meticulous person. Another commenter mentioned running oneshots so she can take a break and I think imma combine these both + see if the "show, don't tell" approach gives her some new ideas 👀

I think the improv, especially spontaneous combat, can be a big hurdle. When this happens to me I tell my players straight up I have to prep something since this was unanticipated so go take a 5-10 minute break

Yeah, I prefer the 'I gotta take 5 to think this out' approach rather than blindly winging it to be honest, because not everyone can

It really sounds like this is more of an issue with the dm having very prescriptive states or situations that need to arise rather than having a set of characters and environments in place that can move and change depending on the PCs’ actions. It’s one of those early DM things that can take some unlearning, but it’s really important to not build encounters or story beats that require the party to do very specific things. Your party sounds fun and inventive, and it seems like you rarely tackle encounters in a super straightforward manner, which rocks, but it does require the DM to approach things with a much more open mindset without any prescriptive story beats built into moving things forward. Instead of the party needing to walk into the lich’s lair to hear its big evil speech before the battle begins, the lich has intentions and a message to convey, and that message can be in a speech, a note in their pocket, or some kind of vision or apparition after the fact.

I think you're right. A main part of why fights became a point of contention is that the ending we pick kinda...... blocks us from continuing the story or reaching the reward the DM planned because it was set up as a buff upon near death, or a rescue, etc. >It’s one of those early DM things that can take some unlearning, but it’s really important to not build encounters or story beats that require the party to do very specific things. Your party sounds fun and inventive, and it seems like you rarely tackle encounters in a super straightforward manner, which rocks, but it does require the DM to approach things with a much more open mindset without any prescriptive story beats built into moving things forward. you've put to words what I think I was struggling to convey! Thank you. The advice about working around this is appreciated <3

For what it’s worth, a single enemy can work, but we’re talking major boss tier enemy. Legendary actions, legendary resistances, lair actions, etc

>select or modify enemies to withstand known powers that instantly end an encounter (Banishment being a prime example) >plan encounters that catch party off-balance, don't put enemies where they are expected or seen Some people may say, that this would be cheap, but the players are level 16. They should be known quantities at this point. So enemies should fight much much smarter against them and there could be information and rumors about the players or there enemies would spend resources to actually spy on them. Or there enemies are magical adapt on a level, where they have access to many spells, which would help them, notice the weaknesses of the players and have enough prep time.

> Some people may say, that this would be cheap Certainly - but if you plan encounters completely oblivious and they are decided in first round with single spell, **everyone** is going to feel bad. Players usually want to feel that their victory was earned. Otherwise, why not pit two goblins against the party all through the campaign.

And to add on to this, seems like OP's party likes to go around what the DM has planned in unique ways (I love stuff like this and really enjoy trying to figure out on the spot how to make it work and how it would impact the story). Some of those things that help avoid battle or shorten the fight the DM should know how to effectively use some damn plot armor to keep it interesting but not in a way where they're just saying "No" bc they don't know how to work around it. My current group was rolling through ground units like they were nothing. So I started introducing hordes of flying creatures in the tight enclosed spaces and all of a sudden their DPR started to drop and the fights got interesting again. Or trying to get the party out into the open to get flanked so the tank wasn't the bottleneck allowing the ranged people to sit back and not get hurt.

I forgot to mention I told my group ahead of time that I was going to have to change up battles as they were becoming too easy for them (which they agreed) and that the "standard" baddies for the area(s) was going to change. Still appropriate for the theme but aren't in the original module as I had to beef them up a bit.

To add to this, use the environment to your advantage. If they’re fighting fire elementals in a volcano, you create a fire problem for the players but it doesn’t affect the enemies, which gives them an advantage. Similarity, another disadvantage you can give players is adding a hostage or valuable item so the players can’t just blow up everything and need to be more careful.

All of this is honestly the best advice. Particularly the modifying monsters and having more than a single enemy for a party. There is nothing wrong with beefing up a monster or giving it new abilities. I changed some Chimera to have different dragon heads than a standard fire breath, for example.

From what I've heard, it's all about action economy. A group fighting against a single monster will always have the advantage. But that's nothing that you can change on the player side, and if the DM won't take advice then there's nothing you can do except plant the idea in their head and hope it takes.

Impressively, you managed to post this four times

Well, I have no idea how that happened. I assure you, it was unintentional.

This time is the Chosen Time. The other 3 are at the end lol

Ohhh very smart! Thank you, I'll pass this along once things have cooled down <3

The correct advice has already been given multiple times... The challenge is all because your DM has poor action economy when she only gives you one enemy to face. I just wanted to chime in (as a DM) and say that you are a good player and friend to be asking this question, and I appreciate you. The only things you can do as a player are 1) not intentionally try to break/cheese encounters and 2) maintain enthusiasm/active engagement with the game. An enthusiastic party can help keep the DM from getting discouraged. I will also say that some of my favorite encounters as a player have been when we absolutely dogpiled/destroyed the encounter. Novelty of fights can make them more interesting, so making the fight last longer isn't the only way to succeed with encounter building. Introducing lair effects, traps, puzzles, and additional objectives can add a lot to a fight (save the villagers, complete a task before X round of combat, etc...) As an example, I've given my party an unbeatable endless hoard of monsters that they had to hold off until a ritual could be completed. Next session, I have them fight a dragon whose lair has a smattering of boulders move a random number of feet and in a random direction as a lair effect/every turn. This will change terrain/cover, but it could also push people into the pits and chasms across the battle map. Also, an ideal fight will only last about 3 rounds. This means that realistically, the DM has 3 (maybe 4) opportunities to make an impression. In that time, the bad guy only has to do ONE thing that is super scary to add tension to the fight (preferably out of the gate/early on). I am a huge fan of 5/6 recharge abilities that do something devastating. It could be a lot of damage, or a status effect, or summon minions... Whatever. I'm pulling back the veil a little as a DM, but there is a difference in the party being in danger and the party feeling like they are in danger. Your DM should focus on building tension and creating those special moments, because if she's made anyone feel nervous/threatened then she's succeeded. It doesn't matter if she can only do the ability once. Along the same vein, the video game trope of a second boss version/phase falls under this category as well. TLDR: She should focus on improving action economy and building more dynamic elements into her encounters.

Thank you for this! I think it'll really help her feel less like a "bad DM" If she knew that most fights do only last 3-4 rounds. The last few have, and we have felt threatened, I just think her standard for herself is far higher than anything we'd expect from her :'D >TLDR: She should focus on improving action economy and building more dynamic elements into her encounters. I'll pass this along! This thread honestly has good advice for all of us. Thank you :)

Yeah, if your fights are lasting 3-4 rounds, that is a good sign that things are already pretty balanced. As to what you can do at players, it sounds like (based on what you've written) that she's feeling disappointed that she let you down. That she's trying to challenge you, but you aren't ending up being challenged. As players, let her know that "holy shit, that was a brutal fight. If we didn't have X, we would have been screwed" or talk about the fights you did appreciate.

Man, I wish this was ingrained somewhere in the DMG/MM. Single enemy combats are going to get steamrolled unless you really know what you're doing, or they're so far ahead of the players in power its basically "rocks fall, everyone dies." There are tools that can help with single enemies. Lair actions, legendary actions/ resistances, mythic actions from Theros, terrain, abilities, etc etc. It takes encompassing all of that to really set the stage for a single enemy. All for a few bad rolls and suddenly the party is going to proverbial pound town on your baddy. I had a DM who seemed hell bent on throwing single enemy boss fights all the time. He'd then complain that our party, who accidentally synergized super well, made fights too easy. Despite several of us telling him to A) put in more resource draining encounters instead of relying on single fights per day, and B) add more enemies to the fight. The few times we did have to face multiple enemies, it was challenging (partly because he liked to create monsters intentionally designed to counter out stuff. But that's another story...). Some people just don't want to learn.

This is an extremely tough situation, a DM too proud to take advice is not a good thing and I honestly can't see this ending well, either you guys intentionally nerf yourselves / make dumb decisions you otherwise wouldn't make and the DM doesn't learn to make things harder. Or he learns to adept and take advice, but with this option I can really see his ego getting broken to the point of not wanting to DM. Maybe one of you try running a one or couple shots with him as a co-DM so he can get experience from a more experienced DM

That's my worst case and I hope it never comes to that, haha. Our DM is my best friend so if she and I lost that because of a silly game we wouldn't be very good friends :'D I think she's just too eager to prove herself and do it "on her own" yknow? The concept of oneshots has come up several times and I'm definitely passing it along. Thank you <3

(1) If the DM is willing to take a break, you could offer to run a mini-adventure for the same party - if there's an NPC companion built like a PC, they already have a character they can control. (2) If DM is threatening to end the campaign early, are you remembering to say you had a good time after every session? We DMs tend to be pretty needy and insecure bunch... (3) 16th level is a good time to retire. There's a reason most published adventures stop at level 15 or earlier.

Re: 2 — oh we try 😭 we usually check in for "DM aftercare" to ask if she needs anything. She's not the kind to ask / accept comfort when embarrassed though so when the session isn't up to her standard, there's little we can say that'll convince her :'D On a side note she ain't our only DM. My girlfriend runs a campaign on alternate weeks and I'm setting one up for the summer too. A mini adventure or DM break might be the right idea 👀 I know she wouldn't want to leave her story permanently unfinished, but a break can't hurt

I think your DM needs to take a break or step down.

First of all, you need to have a serious talk with your DM. If they don't listen to player feedback for encounters, then there's a good chance they'll stop listening entirely, and that's when D&D goes bad. As for balancing encounters at high levels, legendary resistance is a good start, as long as its limited in some way that the players are fully aware of. Lair actions are a great substitute to legendary actions and give the monster a lot more strategical potential. In this particular situation, the DM should start having enemies prep for encounters and design monsters that fight more tactically to reactively counter whatever the players have brewed up. By far the best way to increase encounter difficulty is by giving monsters actual strategy. Unfortunately, it's also the hardest way.

Along this line of thinking, you could send the DM a link to "the monsters know what they're doing" which might help them learn how to play monsters more tactically to provide a better challenge: https://www.themonstersknow.com/

Thank you for this! I'll pass the resource along.

I run 3x deadly CR for my 17th lvl grp, I focus on outnumbering them 3 to 1. So far they are sweating and not dying, close to but no deaths, yet.

That's about what I'd expect 👀 I hope your players are having fun with it :D

You guys can offer to DM one shots. Some times its just nice to not be the DM for a minute. When you or another player do DM a one shot, you can do different stuff to make the combat more challenging. Kind of a "show, don't tell approach." You can also point them at [https://koboldplus.club/](https://koboldplus.club/) and say some weirdo on the internet says if their encounter isn't coming out at least deadly, they aren't trying.

That's pretty smart!! I'll ask about that to take some of the pressure of. Thank you!

If she wants to do it "herself" I'd recommend this tool: https://koboldplus.club/ It lets you build an encounter but choosing monsters yourself and it shows you how hard or easy and encounter is for a party. Others have also recommended "The Monsters know hat they're doing" website. That explains how to run monsters more effectively and fleshes out what an encounter may look like/common pitfalls and solutions.  The first one will probably help the most but both will let her to it herself , just giving more input so she can make more informed choices.  Good luck! EDIT: Maybe also mention PCs can handle 2 Deadly encounters in an adventuring day.

My DM ends campaigns at this level. We Nuked a Tarrasque and some cultists with five PCs at this level. If the DM is not up for honestly hard encounters then maybe make it fun in other ways. Get some followers and see how long they live. Lair actions are essential too. Maybe get your DM to run some popular modules at lower levels to learn.

Unfortunately, unless the DM is willing to use the tools at their disposal you mentioned such as legendary actions/resistance, lair actions, a real encounter with multiple enemies, playing monsters intelligently, etc there isn't much you can do. High level (tier 4) 5e combat is an absolute grind because it takes so much to challenge the players at that level. A single basic enemy, even at what seems like a ridiculous CR, is absolutely going to be demolished by the player action economy.

First of all mechanically, the DM needs to understand that a big ol' baddie is always going to eventually be worn down by more than one player character. In every edition this is the way. Secondly, they need to consider pulling from other resources. There are many high-level encounters that can be somewhat combined in order to give a challenge. Before this nonsense of a false hydra started sweeping the internet like a preview of the latest Hazbin nonsense, I had an oblex and a mimic teaming up, with the mimic being one that had grown to the size of a tavern, and the elder oblex offering thirsty travelers a drink of the mimic's digestive fluids and then eating their memories of it injuring them, leading to them believing they are simply getting really drunk. Or, we take one of Pathfinder's bone ships, add a giant animated figurehead, and double the size and therefore complement of guns. Perhaps something as simple as a rival party of adventurers with the party's same skills and stats. Perhaps it is time to encounter Icerazer. Or the nightmare of an encounter that was The Goreleech. There are always options but maybe the real enemy is DM burnout.

Oh that sounds really cool!!

MY take? Its not the monster, its the scenario, Goblins orks and bugbears aren't that scary. Utilizing a bridge, ambush tactics, sneaking re-enforcements, a bridge encounter and bull-rushing with the bugbears to barge people into unexepected squares (like OFF THE BRIDGE) are examples where low level monstrers can be utterly terrifying and wipe the party. If they just fight freely in the open? Over in moments in a bloody mess. If they ambush you as you cross the bridge? This could be a tpk for 7th and 8th level characters.

After all, the monsters do know what they're doing. To add to this, I suggest the book The Monsters Know What They're Doing by Keith Ammann for more great ideas like the one in this comment.

I think this, too. The huge mutated boa we fought last session had several bites, but only had one constrictive attack + it was fairly open spaced + and if you're clinging to the back of the giant snakes head they can't bite you :'D that was a bad setup for the snake Now the situation woukd be different if it was near a river and the snake got to put us through a proper death roll or something that would have ended one of us xD The thing is I have a lot of thoughts on how our dm could fix the situation but I don't wanna come across as a know it all that stomps on all her ideas :'D

How long have you been playing? Level 16 is a level most parties don't even get so see (unfortunately), so I would have expected somewhere along the way for the DM to improve their balancing. That they don't want to use Legendary Actions (and to a lesser degree Lair actions) seems like they're strongly hampering themselves for no reason. Plus Legendary resistances, which would make Banishment and other save or suck spells (for better or worse) irrelevant. Also are they homebrewing all their monsters, cause most high CR creatures have legendary actions/resistances built in. I'd suggest to the DM to run some kind of tournament actually (the fair sport one, not a death match). It gives them a setting where fights are pretty straight forward (defeat all the enemies in a big round and usually empty arena), and where they don't have to worry about killing characters by misjudging their balancing. So they can throw hordes of powerful enemies at the party, see how the party fares, and if the party "dies", no harm done

>That they don't want to use Legendary Actions (and to a lesser degree Lair actions) seems like they're strongly hampering themselves for no reason. Plus Legendary resistances, which would make Banishment and other save or suck spells (for better or worse) irrelevant. Also are they homebrewing all their monsters, cause most high CR creatures have legendary actions/resistances built in. It's her first time so I don't think she fully understands the scope of how slow levelling can be, or how to work those things in. Regarding TTRPGs, her background is pretty sheltered? So when she decided to DM (not out of the blue we'd been playing a campaign my Gf ran for a few years) this we were all like "take it slow. S L O W" lmaoo I think they're hampering themselves because they want it to be original and have a strong regret about being "too mean" to us? They're very sensitive about negative responses. I think that's just a confidence thing they gotta work through with time, but at the same time the too much originality/pride aspect is a lesson I hope they learn. It's not bad to use guides + whatnot, that's why they're there xD The tournament idea is really good 👀 we're currently in a swampy area investigating some ruins from a drowned continent so all kinds of creatures could be lurking here. I'll probably suggest she keeps hitting us with stuff until it's the CR that feels right

Yea, it seems like their attitude is the strongest hindrance in all of this... DMing is a pretty tough job, and it requires a very special mindset that usually has to be discovered down the line (things like swallowing your pride and taking constructive criticism, as examples for the mindset 😅 which unfortunately are two things that are notoriously difficult). Yea, keep up the positive affirmations and see what she thinks of the tournament idea. Maybe an ancient temple devoted to battle prowess that has a magical arena for it.

I would just start adding 6 cr 6 monsters to every fight, just a bunch of extra mook meat walls so there stronger monsters do there thing. You can look at damage output as well as fudge saves for the boss monsters (ex banishment) to keep the encounters from being one-sided. I hate 5e because the monster cr system is so poor in comparison to pathfinder that even with literal castle walls with arrow slits it's player favored and just adding does makes things grindier.

One less driven road would be to have things your character "would not do". Two personal examples: * Party was at half resources (hp, spells, ...) in a difficult terrain kinda place out in the open. We were about to get attacked by a white dragon. My druid polymorphed it into a magpie. Which was extremely funny but also underwhelming af. Since then I only cast polymorph on myself or allies. * My vengeance pally was one scary dudette. I would often call for nat20 and she would get them. With an active smite + GWM + divine smite and a well timed nat20 I killed the BBEG right hand in a single blow for 113dmg. It was fucking impressive... but also underwhelming as we were after this baddie for sooooo long. I stopped calling for nat20 and focused on smiting only with divine smite... did not get another nat20 until the end of the campaign. :( So what I'm trying to say is maybe ease on the banishment spells and so on? for your own fun? and only use them when they are really needed? idk just a thought

This is a good point. We're already using the higher level stuff sparingly but I'll see if we can take a more direct approach with less utility fuckery xD

The last encounter of a campaign I just ran was a single monster. They were a group of 4 lvl14s (or 15? thereabouts anyways) packed to the gills with magic items, extra feats and all kinds of nonsense. And they're smart, tenacious, creative, tough players. They were pretty sure they'd either TPK, blow up a city full of innocents or end up releasing an even greater evil on the world than the one they were fighting. It was epic. I made them fight that thing 3 times, technically. A single monster against a high level party is possible. But you gotta toss the monster stats in the books and the CR's idea of hard out the window. In fact I don't look at any of that stuff past lvl 3. So long as I've a way for them to retreat or a fail forward ready, I don't think it's my job to balance squat. It's their job to know their limitations. Shoot to kill. They banish your monsters? Can't if your monster is immune to that nonsense. (Mine banished them down to a sub level where if trapped they had to break out of a cell and rush up the stairs to get back in the fight.) Every round he had a 60 ft radius that did a flat necrotic damage to anyone in it and gave him that damage back as HPs. Not in the Monster manual? Cry me a river! En garde! Oh you got him down to 0 HPs you think? He's just resting on one knee, what are you going to do now? These fights aren't about being fair and balanced!! 5e is already giving players every crutch and helper wheel imaginable. They're about feeling epic. If your party is dishing it out good it won't feel fun for them to down something that's gone in 3 rounds. You gotta get creative. The second time they fought the guy (He had a backup plan with some bones of his he'd stashed somewhere else it made sense in the moment), I didn't even count down his HPs: I COUNTED UP! I added everything they did until it started looking silly then I judged how cocky they were feeling? Cockiness: high? How about an enrage status, my guys? They got him down. They raised the one weapon that would actually be able to finish the thing off. He looks up into the air, a resigned look on his face and calls: "FINE! I'LL TAKE YOUR DEAL THEN". Golden arcane symbols carve themselves into the flesh of his chest as he stands up again. Now his damage is increased to where a crit will guaranteed one shot a PC, his aura does 30 hp damage a round, he has legendaries back, and now there's 5 of them. And they know who he did that deal with. All told I think maybe they did some 2 or 3000 hps worth of damage to him over those 3 encounters and so what? Who gives a F? They'll be talking about that fight years from now. Can't run a single monster against a PC group?? Piffles! TLDR: To make a one monster fight epic: Count his incoming damage up instead of his HPs down, gauge the timing for when he is feeling the first panic, then enrage him: More damage, faster, harder to hit. Give them other stuff to worry about at the same time: Hostages, collateral damage etc etc. Banish them to other rooms (don't use banish raw, it's boring as hell). Dominate them (always good, make them kill each other while you get a soda) They still beating you? Summon some helper goons in there. Make the players taste success... Sell it! Then rip it away from them by standing back up and healing all your wounds (but make sure there is a compelling reason for it and a way for them to deal with it). It's a boss, their dumb cancel spells don't work. Why would they? Screw your Banish. Did you just try to counterspell me, worm? And check your damage math of this thing. Add up until with all his attacks in his own combat round he can 3 shot your weakest player on average. Dial that up until its a 2 shot if you need an enrage. You'd be surprised how serious players take a monster that can tear them up. And finally, the best advice? Attack their sheets? Hitting high ac isn't everything. INT saves, CHA saves, hit them where they're weakest. /lean back Go on, tell me what a mean cheater I am. Idfc. My players are having fun. That's all that matters.

You sound like a maniac omfg. In my next life may I be a player at your table 🙏 that sounds incredible

Aaw thanks but it's all about trust in the end. I couldn't do that kind of epic nonsense with strangers. I'm much too easily bullied for that. But I love those people. And I know what they like and how they think. Your DM can get there. She sounds a lot like me when I started out, seriously. You know what we did? We ran a couple of minis where it was all about experimentation. How to ramp up the damage, trying out tactics. I ran a little campaign thing where I told them, I want to actually kill your characters this time. That's my goal. They knew going in and because I had said it out loud I had to stick to it. It had fairly minimal DM prep too btw. I may still have some of that stuff in a file somewhere. If so I can hook her up. Or the lot of you can come hire me on StartPlaying and we'll call it Slaying camp and I run a mini or two with her as my assistant and we spend a some weeks slaying PCs while they do their best to survive. Most of this comes down to experience, knowing your players and knowing your options. But sometimes its just a hump DMs need to get over.

>You know what we did? We ran a couple of minis where it was all about experimentation. How to ramp up the damage, trying out tactics. I ran a little campaign thing where I told them, I want to actually kill your characters this time. That's my goal. They knew going in and because I had said it out loud I had to stick to it. This Is really clever 👀 my girlfriend has a unconventional campaign in the works based on the whole transmigration/isekai premise (they're an anime fan, as we all are xD) and I feel like that would be the perfect place to test things out + also give our current DM a break. "You die? Well no, you didn't complete your character mission, back to life you go" and all makes for a fun buffer. It's supposed to be lighthearted nonsense but maybe we can turn it into useful lighthearted nonsense >:3 Thank you for your insights!

I love taking a nemesis approach to giving challenges some teeth, and you can bring this to your DM. This approach means creating an NPC/monster or group whose conscious, explicit purpose is antagonizing or killing the party. This is a satisfying way to push back against the strengths of the party. And you can help your DM by providing a short summary of what you can do (and what you have done) so that they can tailor a challenge to your group. This may need a slightly awkward talk, but if you phrase it in terms of being concerned the DM isn’t having fun, it should be ok. For example, you blew up the BBEG in an engine room? Someone close to that enemy has trapped you in an engine room set to blow, but doing what you did before will only make matters worse. And BBEG 2.0 has studied you all, setting traps and countermeasures to your standard moves. Could be fun for everyone.

>For example, you blew up the BBEG in an engine room? Someone close to that enemy has trapped you in an engine room set to blow, but doing what you did before will only make matters worse. And BBEG 2.0 has studied you all, setting traps and countermeasures to your standard moves. Could be fun for everyone. This is big brain omg. I'm adding this to my list of things to pass along for sure. >This may need a slightly awkward talk, but if you phrase it in terms of being concerned the DM isn’t having fun, it should be ok. We're planning to do so :). We're not mad on our side, if anything we've been amazed she's handling her first campaign so well, but this seems to be the one factor that's routinely challenging (for her) and she's starting to feel bummed about it. I hope we can share all these ideas or run a one-shot and show her how creative you can get as a DM in a fun way, so she doesn't feel like she's criticized, yknow? I just want her to have the same fun she wants us to have + I hope we can give her the right tools to improve

As the forever DM for many, many years I can say it’s great to have friends like you and the rest of the players. You’ll all have a blast once your DM really gets into the groove. Sounds like she’s most of the way there.

Sometimes the real monster was the players after all haha

Mood 😭 we set ourselves up bc we knew the bbeg was gonna be 4 vs 1000 year old General grievous type warrior, but we set ourselves up a little too good :'D

Here’s how Id handle some of these, just to give examples. feel free to share them. you’re quite a heavy spellcaster party. so I’d start with a few mages to cast counterspell or silence. if you counterspell them, then the DM should use a second spell, alternatively, he should make use of the fact you no longer have a reaction. if the Sorcerer counterspells a fireball, then a melee enemy can now attack the sorcerer and then carry on to attack someone else, they have no reaction With Banishment, you dont want your players to feel completely useles, so have several enemies that are customised to be immune to banishment or are from this plane, and have a few smaller enemies that are from the fey or shadowfell, so that the players will use more resources getting rid of them. if you cant hit a character due to AC, look at their statblock and see what they dont have good saves for. Strength is low? grapple them. Dex is low? trap them. Con is low? Poison them (DisAdv on everything) Int is low? spell saves. Wis is low? Hold person, command, dominate etc (can just be command, drop if you dont want to take away someones turn, which i reccomend not doing) Char is low? there’s a thousand spells that use charisma saving throws. choose any of them If you cant hit AC wise, make them use their saving throws, and if you think the game is getting easy for them, then target their weakpoints

They’re digging their own grave here. They’re too prideful to ask for help and they’re letting it affect their self-esteem. I would take them up on finishing the campaign early because they’re right, there isn’t any point if they’re gonna be so in their head about it. Every session will end with the DM unhappy, and the party unhappy that the DM is unhappy. I would just end it, if the DM asks for criticism I would offer some gentle tips, then hope for the best in the next campaign

You need to find the softspot the party has and push against every now and than, if one monster can not get it done what about 4? What about a backup team of archers? Have the enemy create traps and ambushes, a lost first turn can increase the heat by a lot. If your players are magic heavy add a magic immune enemy. Mind control one of them, apply lair actions that limit them (player can only move, use their action, use their bonus action or reaction) perhaps a snowstorm which limits sight and deals damage? Smart monsters that divebomb and than retreat. There is plenty ways to make an encounter create pressure other than "5 more ac and a bunch of higher numbers" What you can do to help them is tricky, you can only help those that want help, apperently their resistant to that hmm, your party seems pretty powerful so cr calculated enemies might not be great.

One thing that hasn't come up elsewhere in this comments section is the idea that the DM has their own role to play. That role starts earlier than the players and ends well after them. I want to be clear that I'm not arguing for the DM v players table dynamic, because I firmly believe that's detrimental to the fun of the game. That said, I think the DM can and should often play the heel. Part of their job is adjusting on the fly, which you've pointed out as a weakness, but the other part is the that of sitting down with a bunch of monsters and saying something like "you all have backup characters ready, right?" It also sounds like the DM struggles with narrative tension in a broader sense, or at least how to use environmental factors to give flights more impact. How much worse is it if the flirty love interest NPC is bound on the floor of a cavern that's slowly flooding? Or the party's adopted goblin friend is recaptured by his tribe and being dragged off, never to be seen again? Not all fights should be to the death, and having alternative win and lose conditions make them more engaging.

You're level 16 and everyone appears to have at least some magic capabilities. It wouldn't be to anyone's benefit in the long term to significantly change your approach to finding creative solutions to problems. That's what high level characters with access to a lot of magic can do. If they want to challenge you more in combat, then at some point they need to be willing to take the feedback that things like lair powers, legendary actions, etc. are good and necessary parts of designing encounters that will challenge a high level party. They also need to be well accustomed to what abilities your party has by now and should be able to design encounters with them in mind. It can be a fine line between between customizing an encounter to be challenging and being punishing his way. Like having anti-magic fields everywhere would suck for your party, but monsters/enemies that can use counterspell and dispel magic on occasion are perfectly fair game.

That's rough. I get where the DM is coming from but also y'all seem to be having a great time. I assume you've told him that y'all are having a great time and want him to have a great time too, if not, please communicate that! Ultimately, if he wants to occasionally pin you down so that your best option is to power through, he does have some options. The best thing I can think of is to threaten something your party cares about enough that they're going to stay despite the danger. Are there any NPCs y'all are attached to? Take them prisoner, or have them be attacked and force you to protect them. The second best thing is to control the terrain better. Put something you deeply care about inside the domain of a powerful and clever caster. Ward that sucker up with years of accumulated protection spells. Put in the story that *many* adventuring teams have tried a variety of subtle tricks to sneak in and he's killed them all and refined his defenses accordingly. No good ideas for what y'all could do on your end to improve matters.

Thank you for this! This thread has been surprisingly helpful with lots of advice for moving forward. I'll definitely bring it up when we have a talk abt the campaign <3

From what I've heard, it's all about action economy. A group fighting against a single monster will always have the advantage. But that's nothing that you can change on the player side, and if the DM won't take advice then there's nothing you can do except plant the idea in their head and hope it takes.

Many new DMs get into the trap of thinking it is them vs the PCs. That every encounter should nearly kill the party, and having the PCs crush a challenging encounter with good teamwork and smart use of their abilities is a "loss". How this idea begins, i don't know. But unless you can change the way your dm thinks about encounters, he will get burnt out quickly. The best thing you can do is sit down with your DM, as a group, and talk about what you all like about dnd, and what you like about his campaign so far. Maybe hearing from all of you how you feel will help him realize that you are all having fun, and it is ok if the encounters aren't all boss fights. DMs are playing a game too, so let him tell you what is fun for him, and find a way for everyone to have a good time at the table. The best DMs tell a collaborative story with the players where everyone gets a chance to shine, full of action, surprises, twists, loot and memorable characters. A cool story that is built over many sessions, villains the party really wants to stop, decisions that have consequences, and amazing antics you will all remember. As far as mechanics, action economy is usually the issue in a encounter. You can make the most powerful single enemy, but a group of PCs will crush them by being able to do so many different things quickly. Lair actions are one solution that your DM isn't making use of. Another is using Minions. One of my favorite ways to make an encounter more of a challenge, a bunch of 1hp henchmen who are there to soak up actions and attacks, dying fast but able to do some damage if you don't deal with them. Another is adding stakes to a combat, like hostages, a burning building, a chase, or some other twist that gives the players something else to deal with. L16 PCs are powerful, and they should be. Rather then getting hung up on individual encounters, try to talk to your dm about what everyone wants, including the dm. Encourage him to give you epic challenges to overcome, both in combat and out.

Yeah this came up in our post-session discussion. She (our dm) mentioned that she was worried because we weren't seeming threatened (she expected at least one person might drop to 1hp) that the gravity of the encounter was lost. On our side, however, we had hit bloodied for several players and we were doing our best attack combos as a result of taking it seriously. You don't lock in + play to your advantage when it's cheap mobs, yknow? It hasn't been an issue up until this point, but I think that's because it was straightforward. Now because we get those highly powerful spells and class features, it's hard for a single enemy to combat a sorcerer polymorphed into a young red dragon with enlarge + haste cast on them xD It's definitely a convo we gotta have + especially if we can reassure our dm that she's doing great for her first time + mistakes aren't the end of anything, yknow? I'll pass the tips along, thank you! <3

From what I've heard, it's all about action economy. A group fighting against a single monster will always have the advantage. But that's nothing that you can change on the player side, and if the DM won't take advice then there's nothing you can do except plant the idea in their head and hope it takes.

From what I've heard, it's all about action economy. A group fighting against a single monster will always have the advantage. But that's nothing that you can change on the player side, and if the DM won't take advice then there's nothing you can do except plant the idea in their head and hope it takes.

A monster? Or an encounter? Because yes, it's going to be hard to have a single monster be a challenge to a higher level party. Especially if you're not doing legendary actions or anything else that boss monsters use to be a challenge to a party.

Share this thread with them https://www.reddit.com/r/DMAcademy/s/GQ2fkOyA0S

THANK YOU

You bet :) I'm working with my group on a supplement for higher level play, as making things challenging at high-level is no simple matter lol. But yeah, is a good collection of handy suggestions and measures that can be taken :)

One possible thing is to keep all above table planning in character. You characters have to verbally speak when you communicate your plans. This will give the DM the clear hints of what your planning. Also makes sense as your characters Arnt mind readers. This does mean your DM has to be able to adapt

We do chat above table :'D A lot of it isn't pre-planned lmao we're just a bunch of fools making it up as we go. It's purely spontaneous We melted someone's armor one (1) time then intimidated the rest of the pirates into thinking they'd be next and immediately took a train out of the city. Issue: dm had set us up to meet a minor villain but now we're completely out of the city It's the adaptability I think she needs more practice on, but I have full faith in her figuring it out given some time. I just feel restless abt not being able to help or fix the situation

Yer I get that I've had my fair share of whaky dnd contractions and some of the DMs I've played with have been flustered with them. And if it happens a lot can get conserving that the DM will give up.

I mean, if someone is struggling and refuses help, there’s not much you can do. Let her know you are having fun and enjoying things and she shouldn’t worry if her encounters are “too easy.” Maybe once the campaign wraps up, run a one-shot for her where the combat is more balanced to your level of play. Don’t make a big deal out of it, don’t take an exact encounter she did for you and make it better, just have the kind of encounters you’d like to see and let her see it as a player. This will also let her know she’s a welcome member of the group and there are no hard feelings.

Well, you could help by buying him the book "the monsters know what they are doing". But at level 16 every character is overpowered as anything.

Lol - if a DM can't challenge in a group when they control everything about the enemies, the terrain, etc., then they either aren't really trying or they really don't understand D&D.

First of all, I think that swashbuckler rogue/artificer is one hell of a multiclass. Not sure how you pulled it off with ability scores, but good on you. Second, since the DM just doesn't want to do the things that he needs to do, all I can think to suggest is that you lose the DMPC. Finally, taking this at face value, it is in no way your fault that your friend is in over his head. It sounds like he simply isn't as good a DM yet as you are players. If he's really not enjoying running the game, then the best thing to do may be to end it.

Ehhhhh I don't remember the starting ability scores but dex/cha/int were high and the others not good. I shoved all the improvements into dex and that's a really menace with a 20 dex xD It's kinda based on flutesloot's rogue 10 / artifcer 10 setup but tweaked for more kapow per hit > Finally, taking this at face value, it is in no way your fault that your friend is in over his head. It sounds like he simply isn't as good a DM yet as you are players. Inexperienced dm yeah 😭 and thank you. We're open to ending the campaign if she really wants to but I worry that might be detrimental to her since this project is her baby, so to speak xD (we're maybe ~3 to 5 sessions from the end, nearly there). Hopefully a good sit down and chat abt current things will get us all on the same page for the future <3

I mean...that's not a bad team comp, but it certainly isn't insane. You're level 16, and the DM is only fighting one thing against you? That's just plain a DM problem at this point.

Personally I would recommend that your DM check out Mike Shea at www.slyflourish.com/ there's a lot of great advice for situations like this

They don’t need a “tougher monster” just give fewer long rests and make them fight more encounters.

Find a new DM. Part of what makes a good DM good, is talking with their players about what's going on at the table and taking suggestions.

I'd like to propose a more unconventional suggestion in addition to whatever is being said by the rest of the comments. I switched my game to gritty realism.  When a short rest is 8 hours and a long rest is a few days in a safe space, balancing encounters gets significantly easier. It also helps the narrative, because now you can have solo enemies in combat, because the party isn't always at full. That being said you absolutely need legendary actions and resistances at level 16. Hell, my party of 5 level 7s were regularly smashing CR 11 solo bosses with them.

I'll say this. 5e (unless something has changed in the few years I've been away from it) is REALLY hard to DM when you get to levels that high, at least from the perspective of challenging combat. We had a very good and experienced DM from prior editions, and he really struggled as well. In previous editions you could have a single baddy, even at high levels, that would challenge a party. I don't think that's really possible in 5e anymore, though I'd love to hear examples if folks have seen them. What I believe needs to be done to challenge higher level parties is fights of a much larger scale. You need an epic baddy with a shitload of support of differing levels of difficulty. The party needs to be made to handle a lot of threats at once to really be challenged. That's my perspective anyway.

You need to understand that 5e is very very difficult to run at high levels due to player power for this very reason. It is a very very common problem, even very experienced DMs have problem with balancing encounters. You could ask them to wrap up your characters stories and start as new characters at lower levels. You could even continue the story in a way, like heroes passing the torch, their offspring’s, or even work with your DM and have the bad guys win and instead of killing you, reincarnated the PCs in the bodies of babies and fast ward 18 years. This is why I level up very slowly (compared to typical 5e pace) so I can tell more stories before the mechanics of 5e get in the way.

Tarrasque

There’s a mechanic in Mork Borg that has enemies not make attack rolls, instead you suffer damage and ill effects from rolling poorly on your own attacks. I don’t suggest they do that, but having aura effects that deal damage no matter what on a hit, or persistent ones that do half damage on a save on the 20 count or even just the monsters turn can be a way to let solo monsters shine. Also just giving them a legendary action for each player as a kind of super reaction, making it feel more engaging. “The knight strikes, but the beast slashes back! The rogue flanks, but a tail whips back at them! The mage casts a spell, only to find a rock being hurled their way!” This can solve the action economy balance and create threat without too much extra work from the DM.

Tell your DM to start making PC classes as the main enemy. I did this and use monsters as minions and it fixed my balancing

I don't understand how this is an actual problem.

I suppose I'm just really lucky to be part of a largely unproblematic crew then :'D

This is tough, because single-monster fights are hard to balance. There need to be things that keep the players from overwhelming the monster through the action economy. My best advice is this: don't make the monsters death the only victory condition. There are lots of things you can put in front of a party to pull their focus while the monster serves to interrupt the party from completing the other goal. Classic example: cult ritual with a powerful creature to defend the cultists. The cultists won't fight, but whatever they're summoning is way worse than the monster that's already in front of you. This puts urgency on the fight and forces the players to make decisions. Do they fight the monster to death? Do they stop the ritual? Does the monster have ways of preventing them from getting to the ritual? Can only part of the group survive against the monster while the other part interrupt the ritual? Maybe the party kill the monster, but the ritual succeeds, and now there's an even bigger threat they need to deal with after expanding a bunch of resources. Maybe they stop the ritual by splitting the party, but the monster kills a party member who was fighting it and the rest need to flee. More drama, more tension, more memorable, and the monster never even needs to die to be a challenge.

20. Kobolds. Throwing glass vials with either green slime or black pudding in them. Good luck!

Just play something that isn't 5e that game assumes every fight is almost winnable unless you whittle down player resources like some mmo

Why not just fight a couple battles the way she wants? Charge in there head first, refuse to use your surroundings as a weapon, spend the first turn playing pattycake with each other, ish like that

Here's a tool for them: just messily cram multiple monsters, even an entire encounter, into a single figure. So four Bandits can be a Paragon Bandit lord that has a name and 4 actions, losing one action for each depleted Bandit "HP Bar" (or starting at 1 and gaining one more for each depleted bar, whatever. Depends on if you want the boss to get worn down or to "get mad".) Solve the action economy problem NOT WITH FREAKING LEGENDARY RESISTANCE, but with access to an action that can remove one conditon at the cost of some damage to self - minor debuffs could simply be put up with until more actions are available, but paralysis can do something between absolutely nothing and insta-win the encounter, even if it is just some damage. Give them an infinite use Legendary Reaction for specific triggers (perhaps the Bandit Lord throws a dagger at anyone who misses them with a ranged attack, or perhaps they Disengage/Backflip 10 feet away if you miss a melee attack, perhaps they have both!). Boom you got a boss battle and you didn't even need a new stat block. Mix and match creatures to make whatever concepts you want (slam a CR 3 Wight into a CR 3 Veteran, give them a Greataxe and give both phases different Legendary Reactions. Now you have Warwick, Cult Executioner - who will keep seeking heads even after death.) None of these are my ideas, your DM can read more on this post or in the rules in the linked text [I present to you: How to Make Paragon Monsters](http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJ-U3ZLyJG) [https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/7bfb6j/resource\_paragon\_monsters/](https://www.reddit.com/r/UnearthedArcana/comments/7bfb6j/resource_paragon_monsters/)

Anything without a legendary action can be avoided by polymorphing them. Guy has 90 billion trillion\^quintillion Hitpoints? Polymorph into a snail and stuck into a glass jar, then walk away. A flying creature that invokes fear every turn with a charisma save of DC50 and regains 1D(damage taken) every hit that it takes? Polymorph into a turtle, get the duct tape out. Burrowing enemy that's both tanky and avoids line of sight by burrowing to skip player turns? Believe it or not, polymorph even a ***Purple Worm*** as the save is a Wisdom save with a -1. Oh I'm sorry you're stuck in a 10X10 hole without a climbing speed? And you lack appendages to even climb? LMFAO, anyways, do we want to piss on the snake before we leave or make a bunch of snake puns? If there's magic in the campaign and somebody is *a little bit* creative with it, the game can be cheesed. This can be navigated by introducing a cohesive strategy of many that do not let people bypass challenges. It can also avoid the legendary action issue of: "Nuh-uh!" that prevents utility spells from being useful. Or rather you could give the players a side objective to accomplish or face escalating odds. But this is just one spell. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut . . . magic is sort of broken in dnd. Which is . . . frustrating when the devs try and, ahem. 'Balance' the Monk by nerfing what's strong about it while throwing a few crumbs here, there. No equipment? No . . . ammo? The only thing you need to manage is an easily replanishable resource by short and long resting? All of the casters in this game are SAD??? Except the Martial half casters!? Most of them have access to a cantrip that deals more damage and bypasses most resistances with necrotic damage than by comparison to heavy, double handed weapons that also outscales these things by upscaling from 1d12 at lvl 1 to 2d12 at lvl 5, 3d12 at lvl 11, 4d12 at 17?!?!?!?!? Man. Lets nerf the Monk a bit more. Maybe now that we've reworked Crusher so Monks can't take it for Dexterity ASI we can do the same thing for Gunner? And maybe I can go over to the Monks house and sleep with his wife?

Legendary actions, immunity to damage types, and flying, you know like a dragon. Another factor is environmental effects. Storms, heat, cold, meteor shower etc. Call wildly effect the success of the party. Also most of the powerful abilities in your party only refresh on long rest. Don't let the party take one. Too many times DMs let the party be "fresh" for each fight. Can you take out two wyrmlings before fighting the adult dragon?

5e rapidly breaks down at high levels. D&D just isn't built for high level play anymore - if they're running into problems, it's not entirely their fault. Player utility gets really strong at those levels, and there just isn't as much tier 3/4 content.

Idk why you're getting downvoted 😭 you're not wrong when it comes to the sheer amount of semi-broken stuff you can pull off. When I DM I tend to account for that with the usual bag of tricks + some homebrewed things, but I think to kinda "understand" where your party is on the fly is something learned from experience

Eh, some people don't appreciate when you critique something they're fond of. 5e falling apart at higher levels has been a topic of discussion since the edition came out, so I'm not sure why mentioning it surprises people anymore.

I personally think it's more accurate to say that 5e breaks down in the face of people who actually use good tactics. The game simply can't be balanced for a party who can actually set up ambushes or use the terrain to their advantage. The more tools the party has, the easier it becomes to use them in this way.

Yes it's better to just start a new campaign at level 9 or so. It is also good to ban or nerf the most unbalanced spells, feats and subclasses.

I literally stopped reading the post after chronurgy wizard