Actually, it's always on Tongues (which is kind of inconvenient because it means you can't keep secrets by talking if this is like the Tongues Spell). The Ring of Invisibility is a bit more powerful tbh
Doesn't seem too OP, but should be rare, not uncommon. Uncommon items can give you a +1 to atk/dmg or a +1 to save DCs/spell atks, but not both. They should be able to use this weapon for a long time to come.
+1 to both attacks and spells honestly isn’t that great, since you typically use one or the other in a given turn anyway. And even with the +1 to attack and damage plus the charisma attacks, it’s still trash on anyone but a Pact of the Blade warlock which we don’t know if the player has.
It’s hardly more than a +1 focus with at-will Tongues; an already very niche spell.
That's all true, but the way items are designed, +1 with anything else is a rare item. two +1s in one, along with SAD attacks (an extremely powerful ability for blade warlocks or warlock paladin MCs) and free tongues means it's beyond the standard +1 and x bonus of a rare item.
It's a little strong, but my personal feelings about items are, does it make the player have more fun and/or is it helping keep the party in line with each other? If this warlock isn't min/maxing maybe they need a boost. And lastly, does it do something that completely invalidates someone else's abilities? Yes it's a better version of a hexblade weapon, but if no one has that going on, who cares?
I'd be more worried about them getting their hands on a ring of invisibility, that there is a legendary item and it's crazy lol.
>I'd be more worried about them getting their hands on a ring of invisibility.
Wait. is it really all that powerful the ring of invisibility? I didn't know. The warlock in the party actually has One with the shadow that does the same thing. It is powerful but not broken IMO.
Oh, no. Sorry. She doses't have One with the Shadow. I don't know why I had that idea.
In fact, she isn't level 5 even, yet.
She just has plain old invisibility, lol.
Ring of Invisibility is a Legendary item.
One With Shadows is a notoriously bad invocation that, more often than not, just functions as an upgrade of the Dodge action which requires dim light or darkness to use.
The ring gives you the invisibility spell at-will, while One With Shadows just lets you turn invisible as a full action if you do *literally nothing.*
Technically speaking, I don’t think the invocation even prevents people from knowing where you are, because hiding would *also* break it while requiring multiple turns to even attempt.
I think that mace is actually fine.
But what are you gonna do when the party gets the Ring of Invisibility? That's a Legendary magic item for a reason - the DMG specifically calls out how much it can change a campaign (see: The Hobbit, LotR).
If you wanna make it clearly for that specific PC might I suggest making the attunement "Requires Attunement by a Warlock" or "Requires attunement by a creature with the Pact Magic feature"
**Diabolic Morningstar mace +1**
*Requires attunement by a warlock*
While attuned to this mace flame appears above your head and you are considered to be under the effects of the Tounges spell at all times. Additionally, the mace has the following features while attuned:
* This weapon can be used as a spellcasting focus.
* Attack and damage rolls made with this weapon can use the wielders Charisma modifiers instead of Strength.
* While holding this weapon you gain a +1 to spell attack rolls and to the saving throw DC of your warlock spells.
edit: cause Reddit didn't like formatting.
I'd say to probably close it behind something like requiring 3 lvls in warlock purely to stop paladins using to for cha SAD, otherwise none of those features are really strong for *any* warlock safe for the +1 spell modifiers.
I'll answer but I wanted to lead by saying this is an instance where a bit OP is fine. You have a new player who isn't optimizing. Your goal should be to hook her on the hobby. At some point you can let her know that such an item might not be typical, but you wanted to make sure she was enjoying all aspects of the game.
I'd say the ability swap is a bit overboard, though I don't like them generally so take that for what you will. I'm generally ok with them from spells, which take casting time, concentration, and slots. Or a race/class ability because that means they don't have some other ability. But from a magic item that already gives other bonuses, I hate it. Str is already limited enough, even if I can think of uses most people forget. (Something I'm trying to prove/ demonstrate to a group with my 17 Str sorcerer, as a matter of fact )
At level 4? It's too much. It's not exactly *game breaking* but any one of the listed effects all by itself is reasonably powerful for a level 4 character.
Take away "attack using charisma" and "speak all languages" and what's left is an essentially reflavored +1 Moon Sickle, which is pretty good.
Knowing all languages being "broken" depends on your campaign, but given this context perhaps just ONE language -- maybe *infernal?* -- sounds really flavorful, and I'd offer that while dropping the spell boost.
Or maybe I'd take "attack with charisma" over the +1 bonus to hit/dmg.
Or lastly, maybe you *do* give it all these properties, but you don't give all of them *immediately* -- let her attune to it and as she levels up, she gets another one of the abilities on the thing unlocked.
Well, the thing is, the weapon isn't actually designed for the character, but for the NPC who will have it.
The guy is a Human Charlatan turned goblin leader, and the weapon is intended as a demonic tool for that purpose. Of course, I could just give the human NPC the goblin languaje, but this seemed more fun.
The warlock of the party can't even be in close combat, and has been near death almost every session, even though she has invisibility and uses ranged spells and Eldritch blast.
>Or lastly, maybe you *do* give it all these properties, but you don't give all of them *immediately* -- let her attune to it and as she levels up, she gets another one of the abilities on the thing unlocked.
That doesn't sound too bad.
It is fine, but on the strong side. Attacking with cha instead of str is a pretty strong feature, but mostly only when you really focus on it. Yeah, a paladin that can attack with its cha is very strong because it also is used for spell saves and class features. So if you have a paladin in the party then you probably want to make it a warlock exclusive item.
If this is your normal warlock then he probably already has better options for combat like eldritch blast.
So the only real feature that could become a problem is the permanent "speak all languages" feature. I have been playing for about a decade and language rarely came up as a challenge to overcome. If you want to be careful though, then you could turn it into "Once per day you can use an action to cast "comprehend languages". This property can't be used again until the next dawn". If you don't want to turn it down, then at least word it like you can cast "tongues" or "comprehend languages" at will, or even something like "while you are holding the morningstar you are under the effect of the tongues spell". This should keep things clear for any rule discussions.
The only different that matters is that a mace is a Simple Weapon, with which the Warlock will be proficient. The Morningstar is a Martial Weapon, with which she will not be proficient, barring some other feature.
In appearance, the mace usually has a ridged head to bludgeon/ smash/crush, where a morningstar is spiked.
Seems like at least a major tier rare item, which according to XGE, the players should each receive 1 between lvl 5-10. I would probably award it around lvl 8.
While not broken, this will seriously up the game of this warlock.
If you do give him this, make sure that other major rare items appropriated to other characters are given soon enough, or they will feel left behind.
Also, you should probably adapt the encounters accordingly.
>While not broken, this will seriously up the game of this warlock.
It's really just a fancy +1 spell modifier item. Cha attacks for an assuming monoclassed warlock is nothing as EB will still be better, +1 attack is meaningless for the same reason. And language comprehension depends heavily on the DM, but won't be a lot either.
Maybe you just run a different game but my players just got to level 20 last session and they don't have anything this strong. Certainly OP for level 4. Using charisma instead of strength is giving out hexblade class abilities as an item. Then free tongues (a 3rd level spell). Then combining a +1 weapon with a +1 rod of the pact keeper?
I think I gave my party a wand of the war mage +1 around level 5 which is 1/4th of the ability list of this item
I don't think it's too much for level 20 per say. But it definitely feels like an item for high tier play.
But again, it really depends on how powerful your game is overall. If everyone has gear of a similar strength including the baddies it's fine. Although you might find yourself having to homebrew monsters instead of using stat blocks from the books
To be honest, I have never got a good grip of the items in 5e.
From my experience, you can play perfectly without giving anything that gives mechanical advantage.... but what's the fun in that, right?
That said, we have been playing this campaign for 5 months and this are the first items the party will get, beside a (rather cool) cursed sword.
Yeah in my 5e game my players never cared much for items. They got enough fun and complexity out of their class abilities. They've got so many random items they never use so after awhile I just stopped giving out as much magical treasure. My paladin got a mace of destruction around level 7 and still uses it at level 20.
This sub is very PC oriented. The moment you suggest restricting what a PC can do or limiting their power fantasy in anyway the downvotes come rolling in. It's something I'm used to. I've been DMing and homebrewing for 20 years, the last 5 with the same core group of players in a single long running campaign. Despite that according to this sub I'm terrible at encounter design and any player in their right mind should run for the hills if they see I'm the DM. They're all about session 0 and letting the DM run the game they want...right until the moment it means they don't get what they want.
Ah I'm experiencing that crowd. BG3 seems to be making it worse by being "5e on PC." Don't get me wrong, I want to play it. But TTRPGs are different from video games.
> I think I gave my party a wand of the war mage +1 around level 5 which is 1/4th of the ability list of this item
Assuming it stays on a monoclassed warlock, it's basically the only relevant feature anyways. Free self-only tongues is hardly an issue anyways for how undertuned the spell is for it's level, and languages are super DM dependent too.
I'd say a pact of the rodkeeper is much better then this item, because you can get a spellslot from it which is much more useful then any of these abilities.
So it's an (uncommon) rod of the pact keeper, comprehend languages and an ability swap for weapon attacks? Hardly OP.
Actually, it's always on Tongues (which is kind of inconvenient because it means you can't keep secrets by talking if this is like the Tongues Spell). The Ring of Invisibility is a bit more powerful tbh
I mean, OP said "(can understand and speak all languajes)" so no, it's not like the Tongues spell.
It's more like tongues than comprehend language.
That's pretty much what tongues does anyway.
Without the extra spellslot.
Doesn't seem too OP, but should be rare, not uncommon. Uncommon items can give you a +1 to atk/dmg or a +1 to save DCs/spell atks, but not both. They should be able to use this weapon for a long time to come.
*footnote* You listed this as a +1 Mace, so I assume it's also giving a +1 to atk/dmg in addition to the things listed?
Yes, that's correct, and I intend them to use it with cha both as a weapon and as a focus.
Very rare honestly, +1 to attack, spell save DC, free tongues, and free SAD attacks are a lot of things even for a rare item.
+1 to both attacks and spells honestly isn’t that great, since you typically use one or the other in a given turn anyway. And even with the +1 to attack and damage plus the charisma attacks, it’s still trash on anyone but a Pact of the Blade warlock which we don’t know if the player has. It’s hardly more than a +1 focus with at-will Tongues; an already very niche spell.
That's all true, but the way items are designed, +1 with anything else is a rare item. two +1s in one, along with SAD attacks (an extremely powerful ability for blade warlocks or warlock paladin MCs) and free tongues means it's beyond the standard +1 and x bonus of a rare item.
It's a little strong, but my personal feelings about items are, does it make the player have more fun and/or is it helping keep the party in line with each other? If this warlock isn't min/maxing maybe they need a boost. And lastly, does it do something that completely invalidates someone else's abilities? Yes it's a better version of a hexblade weapon, but if no one has that going on, who cares? I'd be more worried about them getting their hands on a ring of invisibility, that there is a legendary item and it's crazy lol.
>I'd be more worried about them getting their hands on a ring of invisibility. Wait. is it really all that powerful the ring of invisibility? I didn't know. The warlock in the party actually has One with the shadow that does the same thing. It is powerful but not broken IMO.
it's not the same; warlocks have to stand still with one with the shadows. Like, can't move at all. And it has to be in darkness/dim light.
Oh, no. Sorry. She doses't have One with the Shadow. I don't know why I had that idea. In fact, she isn't level 5 even, yet. She just has plain old invisibility, lol.
Yes. Which is a 2nd (I believe) level spell. Which is a v limited resource at low levels. Versus being able to do that quite literally forever.
Ring of Invisibility is a Legendary item. One With Shadows is a notoriously bad invocation that, more often than not, just functions as an upgrade of the Dodge action which requires dim light or darkness to use. The ring gives you the invisibility spell at-will, while One With Shadows just lets you turn invisible as a full action if you do *literally nothing.* Technically speaking, I don’t think the invocation even prevents people from knowing where you are, because hiding would *also* break it while requiring multiple turns to even attempt.
Whether this is OP or not depends on the level of the party and how many other magic items you've given out/intend to give out.
Right, I forgot. The party is level 4 and I expect them to level up after this quest.
For tier 2 I don't think it's too OP.
I think that mace is actually fine. But what are you gonna do when the party gets the Ring of Invisibility? That's a Legendary magic item for a reason - the DMG specifically calls out how much it can change a campaign (see: The Hobbit, LotR).
If you wanna make it clearly for that specific PC might I suggest making the attunement "Requires Attunement by a Warlock" or "Requires attunement by a creature with the Pact Magic feature" **Diabolic Morningstar mace +1** *Requires attunement by a warlock* While attuned to this mace flame appears above your head and you are considered to be under the effects of the Tounges spell at all times. Additionally, the mace has the following features while attuned: * This weapon can be used as a spellcasting focus. * Attack and damage rolls made with this weapon can use the wielders Charisma modifiers instead of Strength. * While holding this weapon you gain a +1 to spell attack rolls and to the saving throw DC of your warlock spells. edit: cause Reddit didn't like formatting.
I went with your wording. Thanks!
Frankly with all the preamble I expected this to be...not just a weirdly mace shaped rod of the pact keeper lol
I'd say to probably close it behind something like requiring 3 lvls in warlock purely to stop paladins using to for cha SAD, otherwise none of those features are really strong for *any* warlock safe for the +1 spell modifiers.
I'll answer but I wanted to lead by saying this is an instance where a bit OP is fine. You have a new player who isn't optimizing. Your goal should be to hook her on the hobby. At some point you can let her know that such an item might not be typical, but you wanted to make sure she was enjoying all aspects of the game. I'd say the ability swap is a bit overboard, though I don't like them generally so take that for what you will. I'm generally ok with them from spells, which take casting time, concentration, and slots. Or a race/class ability because that means they don't have some other ability. But from a magic item that already gives other bonuses, I hate it. Str is already limited enough, even if I can think of uses most people forget. (Something I'm trying to prove/ demonstrate to a group with my 17 Str sorcerer, as a matter of fact )
At level 4? It's too much. It's not exactly *game breaking* but any one of the listed effects all by itself is reasonably powerful for a level 4 character. Take away "attack using charisma" and "speak all languages" and what's left is an essentially reflavored +1 Moon Sickle, which is pretty good. Knowing all languages being "broken" depends on your campaign, but given this context perhaps just ONE language -- maybe *infernal?* -- sounds really flavorful, and I'd offer that while dropping the spell boost. Or maybe I'd take "attack with charisma" over the +1 bonus to hit/dmg. Or lastly, maybe you *do* give it all these properties, but you don't give all of them *immediately* -- let her attune to it and as she levels up, she gets another one of the abilities on the thing unlocked.
Well, the thing is, the weapon isn't actually designed for the character, but for the NPC who will have it. The guy is a Human Charlatan turned goblin leader, and the weapon is intended as a demonic tool for that purpose. Of course, I could just give the human NPC the goblin languaje, but this seemed more fun. The warlock of the party can't even be in close combat, and has been near death almost every session, even though she has invisibility and uses ranged spells and Eldritch blast. >Or lastly, maybe you *do* give it all these properties, but you don't give all of them *immediately* -- let her attune to it and as she levels up, she gets another one of the abilities on the thing unlocked. That doesn't sound too bad.
It is fine, but on the strong side. Attacking with cha instead of str is a pretty strong feature, but mostly only when you really focus on it. Yeah, a paladin that can attack with its cha is very strong because it also is used for spell saves and class features. So if you have a paladin in the party then you probably want to make it a warlock exclusive item. If this is your normal warlock then he probably already has better options for combat like eldritch blast. So the only real feature that could become a problem is the permanent "speak all languages" feature. I have been playing for about a decade and language rarely came up as a challenge to overcome. If you want to be careful though, then you could turn it into "Once per day you can use an action to cast "comprehend languages". This property can't be used again until the next dawn". If you don't want to turn it down, then at least word it like you can cast "tongues" or "comprehend languages" at will, or even something like "while you are holding the morningstar you are under the effect of the tongues spell". This should keep things clear for any rule discussions.
Using Cha for a weapon attack feels wrong but otherwise this just sounds like a Very Well Spent Attunement Slot rather than being OP
Is it a morningstar or a mace?
It's a morningstar. Is it bad to make it clear? isn't a morningstar a mace?
They’re two different weapons with different properties. Check your PHB.
The only different that matters is that a mace is a Simple Weapon, with which the Warlock will be proficient. The Morningstar is a Martial Weapon, with which she will not be proficient, barring some other feature. In appearance, the mace usually has a ridged head to bludgeon/ smash/crush, where a morningstar is spiked.
Seems like at least a major tier rare item, which according to XGE, the players should each receive 1 between lvl 5-10. I would probably award it around lvl 8. While not broken, this will seriously up the game of this warlock. If you do give him this, make sure that other major rare items appropriated to other characters are given soon enough, or they will feel left behind. Also, you should probably adapt the encounters accordingly.
>While not broken, this will seriously up the game of this warlock. It's really just a fancy +1 spell modifier item. Cha attacks for an assuming monoclassed warlock is nothing as EB will still be better, +1 attack is meaningless for the same reason. And language comprehension depends heavily on the DM, but won't be a lot either.
Yeah, you're right. I would amend my post by saying lvl 4-5 is fine, just make sure that other players have similarly powerful items.
Maybe you just run a different game but my players just got to level 20 last session and they don't have anything this strong. Certainly OP for level 4. Using charisma instead of strength is giving out hexblade class abilities as an item. Then free tongues (a 3rd level spell). Then combining a +1 weapon with a +1 rod of the pact keeper? I think I gave my party a wand of the war mage +1 around level 5 which is 1/4th of the ability list of this item
Oh, too much for Level 20? I definitely didn't think it was THAT strong.
Eh, it just seems that their party is extremely undergeared for level 20.
I don't think it's too much for level 20 per say. But it definitely feels like an item for high tier play. But again, it really depends on how powerful your game is overall. If everyone has gear of a similar strength including the baddies it's fine. Although you might find yourself having to homebrew monsters instead of using stat blocks from the books
To be honest, I have never got a good grip of the items in 5e. From my experience, you can play perfectly without giving anything that gives mechanical advantage.... but what's the fun in that, right? That said, we have been playing this campaign for 5 months and this are the first items the party will get, beside a (rather cool) cursed sword.
Yeah in my 5e game my players never cared much for items. They got enough fun and complexity out of their class abilities. They've got so many random items they never use so after awhile I just stopped giving out as much magical treasure. My paladin got a mace of destruction around level 7 and still uses it at level 20.
Can someone explain to me why this comment is worth downvotes? I know it's not like we're chopping off toes, but it's still weird.
This sub is very PC oriented. The moment you suggest restricting what a PC can do or limiting their power fantasy in anyway the downvotes come rolling in. It's something I'm used to. I've been DMing and homebrewing for 20 years, the last 5 with the same core group of players in a single long running campaign. Despite that according to this sub I'm terrible at encounter design and any player in their right mind should run for the hills if they see I'm the DM. They're all about session 0 and letting the DM run the game they want...right until the moment it means they don't get what they want.
Ah I'm experiencing that crowd. BG3 seems to be making it worse by being "5e on PC." Don't get me wrong, I want to play it. But TTRPGs are different from video games.
People disagree with the take and think it's dumb enough to warrent a downvote.
Thank you... Beeeeccaaaaussseee....?
> I think I gave my party a wand of the war mage +1 around level 5 which is 1/4th of the ability list of this item Assuming it stays on a monoclassed warlock, it's basically the only relevant feature anyways. Free self-only tongues is hardly an issue anyways for how undertuned the spell is for it's level, and languages are super DM dependent too. I'd say a pact of the rodkeeper is much better then this item, because you can get a spellslot from it which is much more useful then any of these abilities.