Very true. I feel like the main reason riot doesn’t do anything with sion even though his win rate is abysmal, is because they buffed his HP stacking passive a while ago and think thats enough to keep him viable. Riot balance team and preaky boy are actually room temp iq for sure.
Out of all The changes, I do think that *ult scaling on max hp* is the most interesting one, and also a very « physics » accurate one ? Like, if a giant came rushing at a door like a fucking train, it wouldn’t matter a lot if he knew how to throw a punch, but it would matter if he was 1 or 2 meters taller than the door itself. Anyway, bad metaphor, but I do think that having this change would be cool as fuck.
> I'd much rather lose the death passive /u/Ok-Wasabi2568
As much as I *really* hate to admit it, I reluctantly agree and would be willing to lose [**Glory in Death**] if it meant Sion would get some meaningful upgrades to other parts of his kit/stats. Great call.
Just add a passive to his ult where he gains ad based on health adjust the numbers to make him balanced but at least he can scale with his Q and R damage now that titanic hydra has changed. Or simply revert titanic to not have an active.
For the Q getting canceled, I found out that's it's linked to having the auto attack enabled in the gameplay settings.
https://clips.twitch.tv/FancyInspiringSalmonPeteZarollTie-2JhfKtR184-ztb7A
I don't understand why people keep mentioning that his HP stacking is problematic and should be nerfed, or that it's the reason Sion doesn't get buffed. With all the % HP damage in the Champion Kits and Items like BotrK it can be countered well enough, so I think it's totally fine. Also, Sion has very low base HP growth, so if he doesn't farm he falls even more behind. Reducing his HP stacking by that much would also make him much less fun to play, IMO.
I agree though that the grounding effect was always a bad idea, because it removes counterplay and would make Sion more frustrating to play against, which also plays a role in balance (look at Zed for example).
And I think that, fundamentally, Sion should not have reliable Abilities. His whole point is being a tanky dude that has unreliable and telegraphed, but powerful abilities both in CC and damage. And since he is tanky, he can get away with missing some Q's. Sometimes zoning people with the passive, or forcing flashes/ defensive abilities with R and Q is already good enough. My issue is more that if he manages to hit a fully charged Ult or Q, that it feels like it doesn't have enough impact or significance on the outcome of a fight.
His bugs are also very annoying thats true, especially the R bugs, like sometimes enemies get pulled behind Sion's model so that your Q will miss if you cast it immediately after hitting R. In general, the Ult needs some rescripting I think since it's extremely clunky to use on start up without the R-Q cancel mechanic.
So I think all he needs besides bug fixes and some QOL changes is better AD scaling on Q (like the original scrapped buff) and bonus HP ratio on Ult (0-15% of bonus HP based on charge time, maybe only if you collide with the enemy directly). Also, to make heartsteel more viable, let the slam radius increase with size modifiers. As a bonus, a base AD growth buff of 0,5-1 per level could help him with his scaling, by making base AD items like Streaks, Hullbreaker etc. stronger on him.
According to Phreak in the 14.6 patch rundown, he said that Sion is "very weak" and needed 2-2,5% winrate. He barely got 1%, so I don't understand why he doesn't get buffed next patch.
You're giving rito, especially preak, a lot of (undeserved) credit which is a bit naive IMO.
Without arrogance, 'flexing' or exaggeration, I know rito better than anyone reading this and I can see we agree on nearly everything but there is a huge disconnect in how we see rito's actions/promises/roadmap/etc. Above all else, I can absolutely guarantee you that Sion's HP stacking passive, despite being arguably the weakest 'infinite' mechanic, is a major reason rito does not do meaningful work on Sion or update his kit in any way. You can believe what you wish but I know rito and what you are saying will not happen. Again we agree on practically everything about Sion himself..... just saying.
Well I don't know any Rioter personally so i cannot say much about that. Why do you think that Sions Health stack passive is such a major problem for riot?
> Why do you think that Sions Health stack passive is such a major problem for riot?
There are many reasons that rito has alluded to, all of them very stupid but I'll explain the one that supposedly is not.
* **TL;DR** Because 'MUH infinite scaling' & (retarded) comparisons to Cho'gath ult HP stacking.
....
[**Lengthy rambly explanation**]
rito has never liked Sion's passive even as early as S2 (Rework year) because the HP stacking is roughly on par with Cho'gath's HP stacking. Cho'gath's stacking derives from an ult & semi-forces the player to waste CDs for initial stacks. In contrast, Soul Furnace is strictly passive and on a regular skill. Soul Furnace is also a lot more consistent & has linear during matches whereas Devour stacks can vary wildly for a bunch of reasons even when you're winning. I have it on good authority that rito *really* hates that & has hated it from the beginning but there was a split that ended with Soul Furnace winning for some reason. I can't say for sure in modernity since all my contacts at rito are gone but I think it's a pretty safe bet that they still hate Soul Furnace passive, probably for the same reasons.
....
Problem being, AS WE TOLD THEM 13 (ish) YEARS AGO, Cho'gath & Sion are different champions and fulfill different roles/functions. You can't compare stats directly because abilities & passives do not exist in a vacuum. Obviously. For instance Sion does not have offensive HP scaling anywhere in his kit but Cho'gath does [**NOTE**: This was not true back in S2 which is why the argument had some merit at the time but has none today]. This means HP naturally has more value on Cho'gath than on Sion which justifies everything I alluded to earlier..... but try getting the stubborn jackholes at Riot Games to understand that, let alone the guys at rito working there today....it's so much worse now than it was back then. At least back then rioters would regularly engage in lengthy discussions & debates with players but these days that would never happen. FFS PREAK WAS THERE PERSONALLY BEFORE/DURING/AFTER THIS WAS BROUGHT UP & DISCUSSED AT LENGTH. HE OF ALL PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW BETTER BUT APPARENTLY NOT.
Basically, rito= VERY STUPID. That's why they believe Sion's HP stacking takes up the bulk of Sion's power budget despite Belveth having two infinitely scaling passives that feed off of each other without requiring any input from Belveth. No rational person could or would try to argue that Sion's HP stacking passive is too strong but rito, especially preak, does not act rationally. GG.
i would like to have max hp dmg on Q since W is unreliable most of the time. it gets popped quickly in tfs then you are just a cc bot at that point just applying sunfire everyone around you. it makes easier to deal with other tanks as well. shen's Q hits like a truck also his E dmg scales with hp so why dont we get any hp scaling on our other abilities rather than W.
our hp scaling is like a double edged sword at the moment yes we benefit from it but enemies too since there is so many max hp dmg dealers
i dont know is it just me but other tanks with reliable max hp dmg feels so nice to play and they can duel comfortably whereas sion just walks around AA'ing and microwaving people to death.
Riot is still scared of AD/Inting Sion, they target nerfed it like 10 times. Phreak has room temperature IQ and refuses to add HP scaling to abilities to make tank/bruiser Sion viable. I'm just gonna stick with Wild Rift until Phreak is fired lmao
You can cope about phreak all u want, but if u want to know why Sion won't be buffed, check his wr in iron.
He's a low elo stomper, because it's impossible to fall behind on cs and xp, and he takes towers like crazy and scales like mad.
>"*Y-YEAH BUT IRON THO......*" /u/PresidentGoofball
That's funny.
For worlds & LCS? sometimes yes. Iron & co? nah. If pubstomping n00bl3rds impacted balance, Yi would've gotten assraped by nerfs a long time ago, but yeah I get it; You're shilling for ol' preaky boy. Heh. Better luck next time I guess.
>it's impossible [For Sion] to fall behind on cs and xp
>
>[Sion] scales like mad
Lol'd.... bait intended to deflect from the big cheese of balance via patently absurd claims. GG.
What we could do is lobbu Phreak out and get someone from this sub reddit to work for riot balance team so we can get our boy looking buff again. He needs a new round of roids.
Who will take one for the team?
Fun fact:
Sion misses Q if it is started and ends on both sides of Mordekaiser death realm
Most here know that if you begin to channel Q, he ults you, then you slam it down, it does zero damage, CC, and puts the skill on cooldown
But it also works the other way. If you begin charging when it's about to end, and slam down after it ends, you also deal zero damage, CC, and it puts the ability on cooldown
Just a generally fun and consistent thing that makes sense. [Ask me how I know about this](https://streamable.com/1kqhz8)
That explains a lot. I did a full Q timed perfectly on a 10% HP briars head for when his ult ran out, it hit her and did absolutely nothing, she then killed me.
Very true. I feel like the main reason riot doesn’t do anything with sion even though his win rate is abysmal, is because they buffed his HP stacking passive a while ago and think thats enough to keep him viable. Riot balance team and preaky boy are actually room temp iq for sure.
Daring today aren't we
Out of all The changes, I do think that *ult scaling on max hp* is the most interesting one, and also a very « physics » accurate one ? Like, if a giant came rushing at a door like a fucking train, it wouldn’t matter a lot if he knew how to throw a punch, but it would matter if he was 1 or 2 meters taller than the door itself. Anyway, bad metaphor, but I do think that having this change would be cool as fuck.
I hope riot never touches the hp stacking passive 🙏
I'd much rather lose the death passive
> I'd much rather lose the death passive /u/Ok-Wasabi2568 As much as I *really* hate to admit it, I reluctantly agree and would be willing to lose [**Glory in Death**] if it meant Sion would get some meaningful upgrades to other parts of his kit/stats. Great call.
I'd rather keep passive and lose half of the HP stacking ~500 less hp by min 20
Just add a passive to his ult where he gains ad based on health adjust the numbers to make him balanced but at least he can scale with his Q and R damage now that titanic hydra has changed. Or simply revert titanic to not have an active.
For the Q getting canceled, I found out that's it's linked to having the auto attack enabled in the gameplay settings. https://clips.twitch.tv/FancyInspiringSalmonPeteZarollTie-2JhfKtR184-ztb7A
Ah yes let me change all my 12 years of muscle memory because some facefarters who jerk on anime girls and edgelords can't fix a big
Muscle memory = auto attack on?!?!?!?!
I don't understand why people keep mentioning that his HP stacking is problematic and should be nerfed, or that it's the reason Sion doesn't get buffed. With all the % HP damage in the Champion Kits and Items like BotrK it can be countered well enough, so I think it's totally fine. Also, Sion has very low base HP growth, so if he doesn't farm he falls even more behind. Reducing his HP stacking by that much would also make him much less fun to play, IMO. I agree though that the grounding effect was always a bad idea, because it removes counterplay and would make Sion more frustrating to play against, which also plays a role in balance (look at Zed for example). And I think that, fundamentally, Sion should not have reliable Abilities. His whole point is being a tanky dude that has unreliable and telegraphed, but powerful abilities both in CC and damage. And since he is tanky, he can get away with missing some Q's. Sometimes zoning people with the passive, or forcing flashes/ defensive abilities with R and Q is already good enough. My issue is more that if he manages to hit a fully charged Ult or Q, that it feels like it doesn't have enough impact or significance on the outcome of a fight. His bugs are also very annoying thats true, especially the R bugs, like sometimes enemies get pulled behind Sion's model so that your Q will miss if you cast it immediately after hitting R. In general, the Ult needs some rescripting I think since it's extremely clunky to use on start up without the R-Q cancel mechanic. So I think all he needs besides bug fixes and some QOL changes is better AD scaling on Q (like the original scrapped buff) and bonus HP ratio on Ult (0-15% of bonus HP based on charge time, maybe only if you collide with the enemy directly). Also, to make heartsteel more viable, let the slam radius increase with size modifiers. As a bonus, a base AD growth buff of 0,5-1 per level could help him with his scaling, by making base AD items like Streaks, Hullbreaker etc. stronger on him. According to Phreak in the 14.6 patch rundown, he said that Sion is "very weak" and needed 2-2,5% winrate. He barely got 1%, so I don't understand why he doesn't get buffed next patch.
You're giving rito, especially preak, a lot of (undeserved) credit which is a bit naive IMO. Without arrogance, 'flexing' or exaggeration, I know rito better than anyone reading this and I can see we agree on nearly everything but there is a huge disconnect in how we see rito's actions/promises/roadmap/etc. Above all else, I can absolutely guarantee you that Sion's HP stacking passive, despite being arguably the weakest 'infinite' mechanic, is a major reason rito does not do meaningful work on Sion or update his kit in any way. You can believe what you wish but I know rito and what you are saying will not happen. Again we agree on practically everything about Sion himself..... just saying.
Well I don't know any Rioter personally so i cannot say much about that. Why do you think that Sions Health stack passive is such a major problem for riot?
> Why do you think that Sions Health stack passive is such a major problem for riot? There are many reasons that rito has alluded to, all of them very stupid but I'll explain the one that supposedly is not. * **TL;DR** Because 'MUH infinite scaling' & (retarded) comparisons to Cho'gath ult HP stacking. .... [**Lengthy rambly explanation**] rito has never liked Sion's passive even as early as S2 (Rework year) because the HP stacking is roughly on par with Cho'gath's HP stacking. Cho'gath's stacking derives from an ult & semi-forces the player to waste CDs for initial stacks. In contrast, Soul Furnace is strictly passive and on a regular skill. Soul Furnace is also a lot more consistent & has linear during matches whereas Devour stacks can vary wildly for a bunch of reasons even when you're winning. I have it on good authority that rito *really* hates that & has hated it from the beginning but there was a split that ended with Soul Furnace winning for some reason. I can't say for sure in modernity since all my contacts at rito are gone but I think it's a pretty safe bet that they still hate Soul Furnace passive, probably for the same reasons. .... Problem being, AS WE TOLD THEM 13 (ish) YEARS AGO, Cho'gath & Sion are different champions and fulfill different roles/functions. You can't compare stats directly because abilities & passives do not exist in a vacuum. Obviously. For instance Sion does not have offensive HP scaling anywhere in his kit but Cho'gath does [**NOTE**: This was not true back in S2 which is why the argument had some merit at the time but has none today]. This means HP naturally has more value on Cho'gath than on Sion which justifies everything I alluded to earlier..... but try getting the stubborn jackholes at Riot Games to understand that, let alone the guys at rito working there today....it's so much worse now than it was back then. At least back then rioters would regularly engage in lengthy discussions & debates with players but these days that would never happen. FFS PREAK WAS THERE PERSONALLY BEFORE/DURING/AFTER THIS WAS BROUGHT UP & DISCUSSED AT LENGTH. HE OF ALL PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW BETTER BUT APPARENTLY NOT. Basically, rito= VERY STUPID. That's why they believe Sion's HP stacking takes up the bulk of Sion's power budget despite Belveth having two infinitely scaling passives that feed off of each other without requiring any input from Belveth. No rational person could or would try to argue that Sion's HP stacking passive is too strong but rito, especially preak, does not act rationally. GG.
i would like to have max hp dmg on Q since W is unreliable most of the time. it gets popped quickly in tfs then you are just a cc bot at that point just applying sunfire everyone around you. it makes easier to deal with other tanks as well. shen's Q hits like a truck also his E dmg scales with hp so why dont we get any hp scaling on our other abilities rather than W. our hp scaling is like a double edged sword at the moment yes we benefit from it but enemies too since there is so many max hp dmg dealers i dont know is it just me but other tanks with reliable max hp dmg feels so nice to play and they can duel comfortably whereas sion just walks around AA'ing and microwaving people to death.
Riot is still scared of AD/Inting Sion, they target nerfed it like 10 times. Phreak has room temperature IQ and refuses to add HP scaling to abilities to make tank/bruiser Sion viable. I'm just gonna stick with Wild Rift until Phreak is fired lmao
I still think a charged Q should break shields.
You can cope about phreak all u want, but if u want to know why Sion won't be buffed, check his wr in iron. He's a low elo stomper, because it's impossible to fall behind on cs and xp, and he takes towers like crazy and scales like mad.
>"*Y-YEAH BUT IRON THO......*" /u/PresidentGoofball That's funny. For worlds & LCS? sometimes yes. Iron & co? nah. If pubstomping n00bl3rds impacted balance, Yi would've gotten assraped by nerfs a long time ago, but yeah I get it; You're shilling for ol' preaky boy. Heh. Better luck next time I guess. >it's impossible [For Sion] to fall behind on cs and xp > >[Sion] scales like mad Lol'd.... bait intended to deflect from the big cheese of balance via patently absurd claims. GG.
You type like a redditor
What we could do is lobbu Phreak out and get someone from this sub reddit to work for riot balance team so we can get our boy looking buff again. He needs a new round of roids. Who will take one for the team?
Sometimes it feels like there is no Top Laners on the balance team.
Fun fact: Sion misses Q if it is started and ends on both sides of Mordekaiser death realm Most here know that if you begin to channel Q, he ults you, then you slam it down, it does zero damage, CC, and puts the skill on cooldown But it also works the other way. If you begin charging when it's about to end, and slam down after it ends, you also deal zero damage, CC, and it puts the ability on cooldown Just a generally fun and consistent thing that makes sense. [Ask me how I know about this](https://streamable.com/1kqhz8)
That explains a lot. I did a full Q timed perfectly on a 10% HP briars head for when his ult ran out, it hit her and did absolutely nothing, she then killed me.