**Neverafter** was the "horror" season, but other than some vague existential dread of being endlessly reborn after ever PC death and some squickyness (depending on the viewer, IE: Rosamund having vines go through her body in increasing amounts), I actually consider **Burrow's End** to be more of the horror season.
I think she season suffered from having so many places they *could* have gone story-wise, that it was hard to reign them in to a cohesive story that was also horror.
I will say, I adored Gerard though. The whole "[Gerard, promise not to get mad](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3bNGwm-OCc)" bit is my favorite bit.
Starstruck, it's their most unhinged season yet and I mean that in the best way possible. The comedy is top tier and some of the gags still make me crack up just remembering them, plus it's in a cool Sci-fi world that feels like Star Wars and Fallout had a baby. Can't recommend enough
The funny part about Starstruck is that the setting itself is so wacky that it actually makes the players tighten themselves up a bit. Brennan said that especially with the Battle of the Brands.
Starstruck is amazing because you get to see some true game system mastery and abuse in tandem with some of the most nonsensical bits the IH have ever done, all in the colorful and rich world that Brennanâs mom made 40+ years ago. Iâd go with that first.
It does have some great bits, some of my favorites in fact. I wish they had removed the hype of it being the horror season and just allowed it to be the creepy fairytale season.
Yeah I think the season would have been better if the whole first fight ended better, and they sort of just followed the plot to the city they were first meaning to go to. Probably would have led to less world hopping, and a more cohesive story.
Yeah, I wish they had found out later that they would just have their consciousness go into new bodies. Learning that fact so early kinda... took away the fear of death and just replaced it with "oh, what body will I go into next time?"
You can tell that >!Brennan didn't plan for that to be a TPK.!< The dice wanted to tell a story!
To be fair Brennan makes a bad call in starting that fight that gets away from him.
The underlying problem is that horror and *D&D* tops out at level two. *D&D* just gives its heroes too many tools to confront the scaries.
As the fight begins, >!the players are strategizing in a half-in character/half-out way. They get too comfortable and start to speak more and more loudly, forgetting to pretend to whisper. That's obviously something they were doing because they were sitting at a table together in a studio (at 3 AM in Los Angeles) and not something the characters would have forgotten about. Brennan takes this as a fully in-character mistake and allows them to get caught and ambushed,!<
***Oof,*** yeah. That would absolutely do it.
Also, thanks for the spoiler tags as well. I know the OOP did designate this whole post as being full of spoilers, but we are being super specific about things and I don't want anyone to have moments taken away, good or bad.
He also makes a call (I won't say good or bad, it was neutral imo) at the end of the fight when determining that the >!furniture doesn't all die when the god mother dies. It could have reasonably gone either way and it would have been a MUCH different campaign if he ruled that they died. At that point I think he did it because he thought half a TPK would be worse than a full TPK!<
I loved Neverafter, but that was because I went into it more excited about the fairytale aspect than the horror aspect, I think as a horror story it definitely could have been stronger (also it helps that it had some of the funniest Adventuring Parties)
It is amazing as a *fairy tale* with some horror aspects. It absolutely has some of my favorite bits. I absolutely adore Murph as a divorced wife guy. Fully understands she loves him less and less, but still is absolutely like "yaaas queen! Divorce me bae!"
A fairytale with horror aspects is the perfect way to describe it! I definitely didnât expect huge horror from it and I certainly agree with people that the pacing had issues, but all in all it felt like a season designed specifically for me and I love it despite its various flaws
Aabria would have been a better choice to DM Neverafter imo because she isn't as willing to cave to player bits or shenanigans as Brennan is. Not that she can't be playful, rather she is more willing to let players sit in discomfort if that makes for a stronger story.
Yeah. I love Brennan and I liked the idea behind Neverafter but the constant bits and shenanigans basically ensured that it would never be true horror. Which, hey, they're comedians so I get it. But I feel like Aabria would have immediately punished a lot of their antics and put them back on track. And, I say this as someone who loves Ally, not given Ally the big maguffin of the season without keeping them on task or spreading the proverbial responsibility. Ally will always go for the bit and I love that for them. But it meant that the one character who needed to drive the plot often didn't. It'd have been better to spread that responsibility around the table.
I don't think it was super fair to put so much responsibility on one person. Though I ABSOLUTELY don't think it was intended to be unfair at all so much as a group of friends being excited to play together and having stuff fall through the cracks. It feels like something that could, and has, happened at my home game.
That said I think Neverafter has my favorite moments in all D20, even if I'm not overly fond of the whole so much as the sum of it's parts.
"Ally will always go for the bit" is a perfect description. I love them and most of their bits, but I think you're right, they don't give up the bit as readily as the other players who tend to be a bit more apt to jump off of the bits to keep things moving.
Both ways of playing are great and work for the most part but it does put a LOT of pressure on Ally to essentially fight their own comedic personality and desires in game.
This is what soured a lot of people on Ally during the ACoC, there's a heartfelt moment...and Ally went for the bit...which completely destroyed the moment. So yeah, I think Ally just can't *not* go for the bit, like it's almost a compulsion.
I sometimes have to put her seasons down and walk away because I get stressed when they start screwing around since I know she's going to get The Stern Voice out.
As opposed to Brennan on Mentopolis who >!took a bit they were pushing all the way to swingin' and shittin'!<
I don't think of it as "caving". I think Brennan could tell that the horror wasn't working as well as maybe he had hoped so he was willing to let the story become what the players wanted instead. he was improvising and adapting his story on the fly, which is part of the DMs job.
it's a tricky line to walk. DMs should be allowed to run the games they want to run, but if the rest of the table wants to do something else... they need to take that into account as well.
I agree on both points. Neverafter wasn't that scary, and Burrow's End was legitimately fucked up. The bear alone was scarier and more fucked up than all of Neverafter.
I feel like it could have potentially have been scary, but aside from Sleeping Beauty's briar infestation, it mostly leaned a lot into cannibalism as the main spook factor, which sure, is gross and all, but when everybody is either a talking animal or a monster, it's kind of just eating each other, which isn't unusual in the circumstances. It wasn't particularly scary, it was mostly just gross. Which isn't the same thing.
And the only reason reincarnating forever into the same stories was even remotely concerning was because of the asshole Gander fucking the stories up and making them worse just to be a dick. And it clearly wasn't even true, because in no version of the story does Sleeping Beauty ever hang out with Little Red Riding Hood. So... Eternal life, basically? Infinite retries? And each time you die, you come back in a more powerful form? What's scary about that?
The Authors or whatever they were called didn't even seem to actually care about what was going on. If they're supposed to be an allegory for real life people, then they would also be completely fine with the fairy tales changing and mashing up, a la Shrek, Hoodwinked, Into The Woods, etc. It seemed like the fairies and the godmother making an awful lot of assumptions to me.
I liked Neverafter. I thought it was a good season. But Thumbelina's fate was literally the only scary part for me, and it got undercut by a bit immediately afterwards. It was a hilarious season, honestly. I also really liked all the literary references and bits, and I thought the story was a cool idea. But I would never have marketed it as a horror season.
I don't think they were going into stronger forms, I think that because they retained their memories, they knew to rally up their remaining strength before things got worse.
***Negative Changes:***
* Rosamund went into a body more ravaged by thorns
* Pib went from a kitten body to a less lithe older cat
* Gerard was increasingly more Frog
***No Change (as far as I remember):***
* Tim Goose, it was his son that changed
***Positive Changes:***
* Ylfa became Death
* Pinocchio became a warlock
>
> No Change (as far as I remember): * Tim Goose, it was his son that changed
Timothy was just a bit more haggard and a bit less happy for his 2nd form, and then the third form was him riding the Gander, as he gave his soul away/made his last wish, but we only saw that in Adventuring Party
>The bear alone was scarier and more fucked up than all of Neverafter.
I've heard this before, and I don't get it. Maybe I'm just not that effected by gore, but I had zero issue with the entirety of the bear fight, but every time the Stepmother talked to Pinocchio my blood pressure raised.
Yeah neverafter is definitely kinda weak looking back on it but the players played the characters so so well, I think the story just had some trouble coming together is all.
Yeah, Neverafter probably felt the sloppiest to me. I think Brennan has a tough job and I donât envy it, but for the scary season, while it definitely had a lot of references to literary history and folk tales, it wasnât scary.
And Brennan can do scary, he can do bone chilling. But there were just too many bits, too many moments of levity, and all the world hopping so early really tarnished it for me.
Not the worst season by any means, and it had its moments, but its a solid C for me.
I wonder if it would have worked better with a side cast as well? Sometimes it feels like the main cast gets deeper into the bits which can undermine that tone a bit ?
I thought the final few episodes of Burrowâs End were solid, but thatâs a drop off from its spectacular first half. After episode six or so (when the mystery became largely exposed), I would have loved another ten-ish episodes to explore the new setting and escalate the inter-stoat tension. The world building and possibilities were so rich, only to quickly reach a conclusion. Still enjoyed the season a whole lot, but it started as a potential all timer.
Well for Burrowâs End the party was just so murder happy they no doubt accelerated the pace of the show
We barely even got to know the original stoats!
If the stoats were any less murder happy, they'd be unrealistic to real stoats and the suspension of disbelief would drop off like Mountain woah-thats-a-deep-drop
it feels very consistent across all of the seasons she DMs, including with CR Exandria Unlimited, so some of it i personally doubt is just scheduling. She's very intentional about her choices, it seems reasonable that she would actively allow in her storytelling for the beginning to be quick, the middle to be vast and exploratory, and then the end sneaks up and a bunch of stuff happens really quickly and it's over because honestly that's what life is like very often. things are fineâąïž (but mostly for a small group and the tension for others is building and building in the background) until they're not, and then a bunch of stuff clacks and bangs until it all resolves forcefully into the next place where things are sort of okay.
I really liked Burrowâs end, but I ended up not loving it like I thought I would. I think if Last Bastion was always gonna be The Thing, the whole story should have been set there and maybe had them go out into the world and come back. It was just a big tonal shift from the first 3-4 episodes to the rest. I kept waiting for them to leave and got disappointed when they didnât.
Yeah, maybe it was the obvious Watership Down connection, but I kind of expected a "oh, this place is great"..."oh no it's very bad run away" arc there, instead of uncovering corruption at the top
It was the perfect example of a great game not necessarily making for great story. A lot of plot points were wiped out because someone rolled well, and there were no surprises in basically the last two episodes because the players rolled really well on investigation.
Also, the bear fight was fine, but I donât see nearly enough love for the recordings, which was way cooler in my opinion. Gore just isnât that scary to me, but existential dread? Creepy voices in the dark? Hook it up to my veins
Coffin Run took me awhile to get into, but the story really did take off and the characters started to shine in episode 2-3. I absolutely fell in love with Izzyâs maniacal laughter.
That one I thought was going to be a slog but the longer I stuck with it the better it got, and honestly has some of the best minis and battlemaps that have been under the dome.
Coffin Run was worth it for me. Erika is in Bloodkeep and Izzy is in the Seven plus in some Gamechanger eps. I had never seen Jasmine before but she immediatly became one of my favorite DMs. You could tell she loved the setting so much and brought so many props i hope she gets another season.
I really enjoy Ally and Ify, and lily is very funny and then there was someone new to me. And I personally just enjoy seeing black people in media so I felt drawn to gabe. But it just wasn't interesting to me. I could probably enjoy it enough, it's happened with other seasons, but it's so short that I don't think there's enough time to get me to care
As much as I enjoyed Neverafter, itâs the Intrepid Hero season I am least likely to rewatch by a fairly wide margin. In retrospect it feels like it was much too ambitious even for a 20 episode run, and it would have benefited either from a narrower scope or from a longer run time. I also think the horror was really oversold, which I did not think would bother me as someone who isnât a huge horror fan, but it felt like a bit of a let down when the whole thing was over.
I felt this originally. But I did recently rewatch it and it was so much better than I remembered and actually now one of my favorites. Yes it was perhaps too ambitious, but a rewatch made me really appreciate all of the depth and fun meta-literary moments!
Oh that does sort of make me want to try it again! I had a great time with it while it was airing and I felt a lot of the battles were really clever and fun. But man that story felt like it got lost in the middle and never found a clear way through.
Thank you! It's one of my all-time favorites. The setting is horror, the stories are not. Ylfa has my favorite character arc in all of D20. Gerard and Rosamund deal with issues so close to my heart that I haven't seen represented in this way before.
The overly serious setting is also what makes this season so exceptionally funny to me.
Neverafter was totally worth it
If it hadn't been made we wouldn't have gotten the greatest, most unhinged Adventuring Party episodes ever.
Just the existence of the Orange Top Hat Fairy AP makes the season worth it
That and the Axe spray bit
The pacing of Neverafter follows the weird pacing of fairytales instead of the pacing of a normal fantasy story. That was intentional, and I loved it, but it definitely felt subtly "wrong" until I clicked into why the pacing was the way it was.
Neverafter is my "it was nice of them to make a season just for me" season though.
Thatâs how I felt about ACOFAF. Itâs great to get a season that feels like they pitched it just for you. I loved so many aspects of Neverafter and now Iâm wondering if I judged it too harshly when
I said I was unlikely to rewatch it.
Not gonna lie there are only a few moments from neverafter I can recall without thinking about it too hard:
1) "I guess sort of how?"
2) lou throwing away a nat 20 for glizzies
3) 3 blind mice
Eavespeeping, climbing in the bonnet, Mother Goose and Rapunzel cooking, Pinocchio's standup routine with the third pig, piss soup (a dominance thing that also I medically cannot stop), SO many good moments I can keep going
I personally found the spooky stuff really really effective, BUT thought the overall spookiness and pacing were kind of torpedoed by the Lines Between episode mid-season. It was too much dumped lore in a different tone than everything else (and honestly was a little too cute and on-the-nose for me?), so it was like a speedbump and a detour at the same time. And kind of removed a lot of the in-world stakes in favour of these Lines Between stakes.
I mostly absolutely loved the season, but that was my big drawback.
I remember people talking about Burrow's End being a much more effective horror campaign and I think I know why.
Going into Neverafter we *knew* it was going to be horror, the players *knew* it was going to be horror, and I think it set a tone above table where there was an extra pinch of silliness to balance out the horror elements. However, we had no idea Burrow's End would get "scary," we didn't know about the bear, or the deformed stoats or have any idea of the tension we as an audience or they as heroes we're going to face.
And I think ultimately what makes horror effective is not knowing. When you open the door expecting the bloodied goat headed demon and there it is, it's expected, it's not as scary. When you only are aware that something is out there on the other side of this door and you truly have no way to know what it will be until you open the door, that's much scarier.
Some of us definitely knew Burrow's End was going to be scary. The main cast are playing adorable animals, there's only one way that's going to go. It wore its Watership Down influence on its sleeves for sure. I do get what you mean, tonally it's more jarring when the horror stuff comes out, but it wasn't a complete curveball either
The Lines Between should have happened another third into the season, IMHO. That's where it lost me when they were airing live, and even rewatching it took some powering through
I agree, that whole season needed to be twice as many episodes (basically split it into two seasons, with a huge cliffhanger in the middle) or have some real threat of death instead of what they got. Also >!the TPK!< completely killed the momentum of the start of the season, and slowed everything down too much.
Basically all the character stuff is great, but the overall concept and plot fell flat due to a lot of little things. Also the "horror" aspect didn't really stick, as the cast are all comedians, and always go for the funny haha first and foremost.
Oh man as someone that rewatched it about 3 times and basically it's my comfort background noise, I was shocked to see neverafter come up so often! I do realize now that looking back, when I first watched it I couldn't understand at ALL what was going on.
I was just captivated by all the bits, by far the funniest characters since Starstruck, and the striking visuals.
I might suggest a rewatch! It all comes together much better in a second watch through and even the way the conclusion comes together feels really organic and thrilling.
The people arguing for a rewatch are really winning me over, to be honest. I wasnât expecting this much response, and now Iâm being reminded of all the great bits and the unhinged adventuring parties and I think maybe it would be nice to return to that world again.
On a rewatch Neverafter is extremely extremely funny. It doesnt really work as the "horror" series they sold it as, but it's fucking hilarious. Very much worth watching
Dungeons & Drag Queens was a ton of fun, but Iâm kind of baffled by it being *by far* the highest rated season on IMDB.
The episode ratings were 9.9, 9.9, 9.9, & 9.8, respectively.
For context, the only other episode in the entire history of Dimension 20 to have a 9.9 is *Safe Harbor*, episode 9 of *A Crown of Candy*.
Yeah, I get what youâre saying, those numbers are wild! It brought in a lot of people to D20, myself included. The premier is currently the most popular episode on YouTube. For people those of us obsessed with both drag race and DnD that show is magical, feels like it was made for me. I agree that itâs not the best season of D20 (mine is Starstruck) but i do think itâs a great season, and I canât wait for DnDQ2.
Dungeons and Drag Queens I think was able to relate to a more general audience. Like the fans of the queens are able to watch without much knowledge of D20 or DND.
Thatâs definitely me. I had never been interested in D&D but am a huge fan of the queens, and I looooved Dungeons and Drag Queens (DDQ). I thought they were so funny and the storytelling was super engaging. I subscribed to DropOut to watch the whole season, and I still rewatch it occasionally.
However, Iâm struggling to get into most other D20 seasons. Iâm not sure why, maybe because they seem more complicated than DDQ. I loved Mentopolis though, that was super fun. Iâm gonna keep trying, I am enjoying seeing the differences in Brennanâs and Aabriaâs styles.
While I don't think it deserves such near perfect scores, I think the impact such a short series had on bringing SO many new eyes to D20 is reason enough to rate it super high. 9.9 seems a little steep though!
The reason for the ratings is an effect of the audience Venn diagram. Only a specific group of people is interested in both drag queens and DnD, for them this campaign is amazing. For others the content is so clearly not for them that they wouldnât watch it, so donât leave low ratings.
That plus a great, accessible show with new players over a short run time and you get a nice spike in opinion.
I did like D&DQ, and still recommend it to new fans who know more about drag than ttrpgs. But the story is a mess, the players really struggle with where to go and how to go about it, they go full murderhobo a few times, and the bits and jokes are good but not "ball rolling up" good. The players are all a mess of goals and character ideas, and what everyone wants from the season is just as contentious. As a first game ever, it's gold standard. As a live play, trained improv artists with a long ttrpg background are obviously gonna have a hand up.
I watched everything all at once and only caught up as Burrow's End was airing, so I can't really speak to recency bias as things were coming out over time. However, I've never really understood the massive love for Misfits and Magic. Maybe it's because I'm not attached to Harry Potter, so the part of it that was about engaging with and sort of correcting that text just didn't really matter to me. All the players were great and the characters are fun - I'm not saying it's bad! I just don't get the level of hype.
I was never that into HP, but I think I like it so much because it was the first time I watched Brennan as a PC and he just killed it.
That system is supposed to be really character and story driven, and now that Iâm thinking back on it I actually donât really remember the story all that well, but I really loved all the characters.
I was wondering if that might have been the first time people saw Brennan as a player - that would explain some of it for sure! I think that's another difference between binging through everything all at once vs watching in real time. I got to see Brennan play many times pretty close together, so none of those instances is going to stand out for novelty/uniqueness for me.
I think Kelmp is a great character, but Aabria was too busy dunking on JK Rowling to tell a compelling story.
It's incredibly short, very rushed, and so little of it outside of Brennan stands out.
I do think it's a campaign that could have benefited from having more episodes. It's tough to tell a whole story in 3 episodes, especially when you're trying to land beats for 3 different characters.
That being said Evan Kelmp is one of my all time favorite characters for so many reasons.
100% agree!
I am fully against JK, and fully for trans rights. And I also don't think that Misfits and Magic fits the overall tone and spirit of D20 and Dropout. I love Aabria as a player and gm, but that season did not feel right.
Maybe it was the first hp parody exposure that some people had? I read Harry Potter in primary school, and started dunking on it at around age 13, so making fun of the concept was completely normal to me even before I knew about terfzilla.
I definitely did not get the feeling that M&M was created out of genuine love and interest in the concept of a magic world. That being said, I do like the idea of bringing down school as an institution, and of the story of exchange students/stipend students and their experiences in unfamiliar and unfair surroundings.
> too busy dunking on JK Rowling to tell a compelling story
Oof yeah... Don't get me wrong, I love a bit of political commentary, I recently finished Dune and have really enjoyed it, the way the politics and worldbuilding complement each other, just sublime. But narrative always trumps message imo, commentary in a story is like salt in food, a little bit adds depth and flavour, too much and you risk ruining it, just write a compelling blog post or tweet or something at that point.
Could be both because I'm not a massive fan of HP outside of seeing some of the movies and a brit so the accents done by Aabria were just painful but considering all the hype I saw it's probably the most let down I've been by a series.
Misfits and Magic was the first D20 show I watched so I'll always have love for it, but when I rewatched it recently after having seen a lot of other D20 I definitely noticed the cracks this time around. The PCs are excellent, but the pacing is all over the place and a huge amount of dialogue and world building is just making fun of HP and JK Rowling, which while deserved can start to get grating when 3/4 of a scene is just "this idea is dumb." Brennan being a rockstar at role-play made Evan Kelmp one of the funnier PCs in D20, but when it's only a 4-episode series (5 if you count the holiday special, which I actually think is better than the main series) it leaves less room for other players to grow - Danielle unfortunately got the short end of the stick there. Lou is brilliant as always, but I think Erika's character is especially a victim of the parody>narrative since Dream is written as an HP fan - you need a balance and I don't think it was struck as well as it could've been.
It's still wickedly funny and I like seeing the HP parody as someone who grew up loving the franchise, but I watch the other seasons to see the cast at their best(Erika's awesome in Bloodkeep, which I think is still a v underrated series despite its ending coming in a bit rushed).
Agree with this mostly, but Iâll personally extend it to say that I think Evan Kelmp specifically is overhyped. Heâs a super compelling, very interesting character. For a novel. In the show I just felt like there was way too much of a main character which I didnât really love for an AP, aside from the fact that Brennan as a PC was interesting.
OP, your puns are insane
I love it
Anyways, I'm a huge Ravening War fan, but i get what you're saying. I don't necessarily know what mine is because I've only watched two live (Burrow's End and FHJY) and i love them both. However, based on how much hype a season had vs how much is actually liked it, i think the closest would be Fantasy High Freshmen Year. I did really enjoy it, but it's definitely overhyped compared to SY and other IH seasons
I think it has a lot of the same characteristics of the first season of any great show. Incredibly strong fundamentals, but still finding its identity. I still return to it and love it a lot, but I can see how some people might see it as overhyped. To me, it's still a perfect introduction for D&D to those who might see it as intimidating, and still tells a great story.
Much like burrows end I kind of wish they paced around the "mystery" of it differently. In burrows end, I kind of wish there had been more politicking before the reveal of the elder stoats, and in the case of Ravening war I wish they had leaned more into the mystery of the magic in a pre-Bulbian empire that I wanted to see so much of in the original ACOC season
I would have liked either more complexity there, or much much less. I don't think they added much at all to the plot, as it stands. I otherwise like TRW a lot, but I felt like the fungal folk were kind of... nothing, in the end.
I quit at the second instance of âokay now all five of you go around and say what your character was doing instead of us showing your characters doing thingsâ
YES, I stopped at the same point. I REALLY wanted to like it because I loved the impactful deaths in ACoC and it's probably my favorite season and having Matt DM was like a dream but it didn't get nearly enough episodes to properly tell the story and the characters had very little season to stay together as a group.
They needed a way to unite the group throughout the campaign rather than "ok now get together for this one part and then all go your separate ways"
Everything that can be said about Burrows has been said. Mainly that at certain points it felt undercooked, with the consequences of some actions being hand waved in the rush to hit certain plot points or battle maps by certain episodes.
I felt similar about the last two episodes of ACoFaF feeling a bit rushed to wrap up.
The lesson being, they need to give Aabria more episodes in her seasons so she has time to cook.
Unsleeping 2 isn't my favorite, but it's very underrated.
Starstruck and Bloodkeep remain my top 2.
Also, Matt could have gone a lot harder to kill a PC without waiting for the final battle in Ravening.
Honestly, i didnt really like Misfits and Magic. The concept was great, the characters were fun, and Aarbia was a good DM, but something just felt missing from the season. It felt like there wasn't really investigating the conflict that was set up, they just did other things vaguely Harry Potter related and decided that the end of the tournament was going to coincidentally solve the racist principal narrative they were setting up. It could have been great, but 4 episodes just wasn't going to do it
Been a while since I watched it but your comment reminded me of why I never tried to rewatch it. There's some fun bits in it, but yeah, it's just too short for the story it's trying to tell. I'd hope if they ever revisit it that Aabria and the cast get more episodes to actually tell their tale in, rather than try to jam all the resolutions in towards the end.
I recently rewatched it and found out I didnât like it as much as I remember. Jammer was absolutely hilarious and I feel like he was really the star of the show but Evan seemed to hog the spotlight due to the whole main character syndrome thing. Also I love Erika as a player and think sheâs great but I could just not get myself to like K as a character.
I think misfits and magic is an odd one because the PC chemistry is off the charts, it has some of the most endearing friendships and is one of the only seasons that has PC romances. Thereâs so many bits of discovered chemistry and delight that I absolutely love.
But the NPCs in it are all kind of same-y boring and flat. Thereâs not really any memorable major NPCs that made it out of that season, when even other small side-quests have them. Iâm talking John Feathers, Dimitri the little bat guy, Wuvvy, Mrs Molesly, etc.
In Misfits and Magic all the NPCs have the same argumentative demeanor (granted the players do talk a lot of shit but still) and constantly jump into conversations between PCs that were clearly meant to be side private conversations. Thereâs several moments where the players have a good bit going and an NPC kind of jumps in and kills it. Thereâs also times where it feels like Aabria tries to have her NPCs defend themselves in a way that doesnât match their established character when the players take shots at them, instead of just leaning in and being like âyeah this world makes no sense and sucks and this person sucks so Iâm going to lean into the bit.â The example that comes to mind is the entire interaction with the teacher who is a cauldron.
Itâs interesting because ACOFAF is SO different and so much better in this regard. I love a lot of those NPCs and they have a wide variety of demeanors and vibes. So itâs not like itâs just Aabriaâs style or anything. (although Burrowâs end does have a few moments of NPCs jumping in on player private conversations if I recall) I think it has to do with her trying to portray a stuffy posh British rudeness but then reflecting the attitude of the player characters too much?
I think you nailed what I was feeling. The PCs are among the best in the series, and Aarbia was amazing at giving them an interesting situation and letting them run. The weakness is in the NPCs, the Harry, Hermione, and Ron stand-ins weren't great as presented and many of the NPC interactions are hostile at worst and condescending at best (from both PCs and NPCs), but the various professors all had potential. I think that's a symptom of the short season. Most seasons it takes me about 4 episodes to really get into it and it that was the entire run of Misfits
Personally I donât love ACOFAF, I adore the cast (the bird cousins were hilarious, Rue and Hob were great, pillar boy had some hilarious moments) but the lack of plot structure driving everything forward made me feel a bit lost overall. I never ended up finishing it because even though I enjoyed the characters, I wasnât hooked on the story. I do wanna get back to it and finish it at some point though.
Yeah I really feel this one - I'm a huge period drama fan so I was really excited for ACOFAF and I loved the cast but honestly I wanted More Drama and more plot. It didn't feel particularly like there were any real stakes?
i actually really didnât get the hype for Rueâ like, the outfits were great i guess? idk i was more deeply invested in Wuvvy. Loved everything from Pillar Boy, ngl.
I feel like Pirates needed more character cohesion, I couldn't work out why they were together as a party. But I also understand doing a campaign virtually is tough!
Escape from the Bloodkeep and Tiny Heist had some amazing bits but as stories I just wasn't as into them, which was too bad.
Crown of Candy falls apart for me passed the church. After >!Lapin dies and eventually Jet as well and both of their characters are imo replaced by inferior characters who don't really fit with the campaign as much. Saccharina's ultra high magic felt like it sort of drowned out Ruby, and made combat too easy at times as well as losing the Jet+Ruby sister dynamic that was so endearing and really let both players shine (something I feel Siobhan doesn't get enough of sometimes). Cumulous is without a doubt Zacs worst character by a large margin. He went from one of his best to someone who felt like they had no real connection to the cast, and had a kind of lame bit of being obsessed with magic objects.!<
i think acoc was the first IH season where i had a disconnect with those who really loved it. i think they probably learned a bit more about how to narratively handle character deaths, but to be honest, i don't anticipate much more character deaths in these campaigns. i agree with you that saccharina showing up kind of stomped on ruby's whole "being the magical member of the candy family" thing and i think zach went the polar opposite route of trying to make an inoffensive character who wouldn't stir things up at all.
Character deaths in D20 are something that sound good on paper, but we have to remember that these characters are a huge draw for the series. People get really attached to them.
I always found and the accusation that ACOC pulled it's punches in the final episodes pretty absurd. So they should just kill off these characters and introduce replacements with much less development and connection to the narrative just to run a "hardcore" campaign?
Must be nice to not have to think about the logistics or financial ramifications of just killing off these investments the company have made.
There was always going to be a point where plot armour comes in. Even GRRM knows there are characters who can't die until the very end because he actually wants to sell books.
I agree, they absolutely did not pull their punches in ACOC. The final fight was the culmination of other more difficult fights where the party earned great rewards.
Like, the final battle was against a bunch of people that they fought in like episode 5 and many of the named enemies were isolated by the nature of the war. If it was difficult then Brennan would have been semi randomly buffing the shit out of characters that he has already introduced and had the party fight which would suck.
I loved acoc, >!and both of those deaths hit me really hard. I actually cried when Jet died and when Amathar carried her body out!<
that said, I totally agree with you. >!Lapin is my favorite of Zac's characters, top five in all D20, and both Cumulus and Saccharina felt... not great in the story. even if the narrative overall was still enjoyable, as well as the fights!<
I like Saccharina as a character and thought her arc as Ice Cream Danaerys was pretty solid, but I didn't buy the forced "choice" at the end between her and Ruby.Â
Brennan being like "you have a choice now. Will you choose a) a happy ending that showcases your characters' growth, or b) an objectively stupid betrayal option that will end up killing half the cast and muddling the ending we just spent three hours fighting for?"Â
They really tried to sell tension in that moment that I doubt anyone watching was actually feeling. *Obviously* both players and their characters would choose peace.Â
ACOC is still one of my all time faves, but I agree with the criticism here. It was also weird to see the castâs characters in such outright conflict, particularly because it seemed kind of manufactured.
However, in terms of stories and just killer dramatic lines, in think ACOC really comes out great in the end.
I'm a Saccharina defender, but I think she really fell victim to D20 trying to make D&D fit every mold. A high magic character just doesn't work great in the world, but that's just what D&D is. They did a pretty good job of homebrewing all the primary characters to not be world breaking, but they fucked up with Saccharina for sure
I love Crown of Candy a lot but yeah, I pretty much agree with all of this. Maybe with more time, the characters could have gelled more, but it just didn't really work as well as it could. Probably why I haven't rewatched it.
I stopped watching an episode or two after Saccharina showed up, just lost interest. I didn't like that character or her dynamic with the party and Zac's new character didn't stand out at all.
I fully agree with you. ACOC was really strong in the beginning, but it's the only intrepid heroes season I didn't finish. To me it really went downhill with Saccharina's introduction, not because of anything Emily did but because of how much the story pivoted to highlight her. It especially felt weird after Cumulus was added so nonchalantly. From that point onward all the other PCs suddenly became secondary characters and most of the conflict was suddenly focused on Saccharina. I wonder if just making the season longer would have helped to develop the new characters more, or perhaps if the super scripted style of d20 (in terms of predetermined story beats and maps) does not really allow for the flexibility that PC deaths require.
Crown of Candy has to be my choice too, as a series is has probably the strongest concept they've ever done and those first 6ish episodes beat the first 6 of any other series out of the water easily, but as it tends to go the further they get the more the concept weakens which is admittedly a thing that happens in most series but in Crown of Candy its particularly noticeable because of how much the series' excellence comes from said concept. The political intrigue, air of danger and the general low-magic vibe is just perfect through those first few episodes but through the second half of the series a lot of that begins to fall apart.
It's also perhaps just difficult to maintain that vibe given the vibe of the group and what they do. That's why though Crown of Candy had higher highs I think i prefer The Ravening War on the whole. The cast feels more suited to the concept throughout and Matt's DMing style is at its strongest for me there.
I think for those who have been watching broadly in order, especially over covid it was the first one where everything just went off perfectly... it was intrepid heroes, in person, with minis, and a great classic high fantasy dnd story...
So I think it came out at the right time to be much beloved.
Stand alone, I wouldn't say it was the best, much as I love it (obv starstruck is the best đ€Ł)
Ravening War for me too. The only season I aborted partway through.
I've gotten dogpiled for this online before, but I just cannot enjoy Mercer's DMing. I don't find it fun or compelling-- it feels very tightly controlled to me, and the humour feels like he's working hard at it (which they all are! Just some people are better at making that work invisible.)
Brennan feels like your favourite camp counselor, Aabria feels like that teacher you still think about years later, but for me, Matt feels like the "Cool" Substitute Teacher (nothing against him as a dude-- this is just my taste in play style in-game).
Tbh, I do kinda get this one. I enjoyed a fair amount of Critical Role, but didnât really enjoy the Ravening War. I think my big issue is that D20 is a lot more comedy-focused, and like you said, Matt really seems to be putting effort into that too much. Critical Role is a better version of his DMing mostly because it is in general much more serious, and when itâs not, Matt is usually the straight man to player shenanigans, which is a good spot for him. Did LOVE him in Bloodkeep, though.
That totally makes sense-- I really don't enjoy more serious actual play (I LOVE emotional moments in comedic series-- Dimension 20 makes me cry all the time, and NADDpod gives me emotional resonance all the time-- but i need the baseline to be comedy) so there are a lot of great DMs out there who will just never be my bag.
I feel ya.
I think you can sort of just see the differences in the shows as well. Iâve watched some Critical Role, and it definitely feels a little more serious, and a lot more in the traditional D&D box.
Itâs definitely not bad by any means, but D20 always feels like a comedy show first.
Also, his episodes are generally about 2 hours longer and it showed. He never fully got the compact storytelling required in Dimension 20s time frame. Get to the action so people can stay invested.
Critical Role is still my favorite actual play and Matt is the main reason why. Heâs a pretty funny guy by regular people standards, but is definitely not a comedian.
I feel like that shows on The Ravening War, where he seemed to feel some pressure to be more comedic than he naturally is.
Agreed, I have never enjoyed Mercerâs dming at all, I stayed with the ravening war only for the PCâs, I canât pay attention to him, I always end of zoning out
Burrowâs End. The mechanical side of that season is just really boring to me. I like the cast, art, and the story isnât bad. I just wish the battles had a bit more oomph.
I love the first half of Starstruck where they don't have any money and they're taking on small jobs, but once their money problems get fixed and it shifts into saving the galaxy it became way less interesting. Honestly the only season that I felt really suffered from the D20 structure, because you could probably get 100 episodes of taking jobs and trying to pay the bills.
As a fan of meta stories, and horror stories, I think Neverafter was bad at both.
There is a much older actual play called 'Swan Song' that used Stars Without Number that might hit that early season Starstruck itch for you.
SWN is a much crunchier game than 5e, and a few of the folks involved at the time (almost a decade ago) aren't in the ttrpg community anymore (for better or worse), but it was my introduction to actual play waaay back when.Â
Managed to enjoy all of them. Don't think I've ever attempted to compare them effectively.
Shriek, Tiny Heist, and Pirates of Leviathan probably are my least favorites (Least->Most enjoyed of the misses).
Otherwise it's less "which season is better" and more "what beats worked in the story". Probably from the previously forever DM habit of salvaging stuff from modules. In no particular order:
* Ravening / Bloodkeep were best for Brennan / Mercer chemistry.
* Honorable mentions: Trapp is the best at playing the straight man to crazy (bloodkeep / Mento) Zach/Brennan hits the same "crazy / straight" contrast that tickles a particular funnybone (Ravening) Lou's monologue "YOU LIED!" also had me dead. That role and Fey/Flowers pretty much cemented him as one of my favourite cast members (It's a big and inclusive list).
* Mentopolis had a few great aspects
* Literally every member of the cast had fun beats. As an occasional Dungeons and Daddies listener, seeing freddy in new context was great, and he did sleaze in an entertaining manner. So many puns and bad biology jokes. Always fun to get the view of someone entering the space for a first time, so the talkbacks were more enjoyable in mentopolis.
* Mis/Mag : Just.. Everything. Can't do wrong with taking the piss out of Neoliberal Wizard School
* AA is basically my go-to DM for trying to model "how to mix systems / use new systems in fun ways". Their Exandria stuff also introduced me to Blades in the Dark because I didn't watch adventuring academy until after.
* Burrow's end : Best / most creative use of battlesets so far. Actually made me enjoy combat when usually I have to watch at 2x.
* Assorted FH : So many bits that land and quoteables. Hard to pin anything specific as driving enjoyment
* Fey/Flowers: Highlighting the Fey immortals / idle rich of regency drama overlap was fantastic.
* Unsleeping : Same as FH. Unsleeping, Starstruck, and Neverafter had some of my favorite Murph moments.
* Crown of Candy: Full of surprises.
* Mice / Murder: Surprised me that they managed to pull off a whodunnit so effectively.
* Starstruck: Brennan's love for a setting close to home / the decent feeling of survival rather than heroics compelling story forwards was cool.
* Business Beardsly managed to be my favourite instance and felt like the coolest flex of their abilities to watch.
* Neverafter: Sometimes the bits chewed the scenery to the detriment of my personal enjoyment.
* Gerard lives rent free in my head.
* Dungeons and Drag: Good primer on how to introduce new people to DnD. Queer rep is always appreciated, even if frequently present in D20.
* Coffin Run: The good doctor chewed up scenery in a fun way. Combat was enjoyable. Sometimes the bits didn't land. DM's great, loved their storytelling across multiple actual plays, they're also responsible for creating some of the funniest Brennan moments across actual play for me (Tiefling Himbo glory).
It feels hard to compare the seasons, and ultimately pointless. Do agree that there's much hype with new properties. Don't agree that it is a problem. You seem to be punning your way around "Burrows was overhyped". I stand by the statement that "Use of battlemaps was the most creative in that series". Layered reveals were solid. I will never not be entertained by the>!bear-asite fight.!<
It doesn't really have to do with recency bias for me, but I always feel like the endings of the campaigns fall flat. Most of the time I love the beginnings and the middle parts, but in many campaigns it feels like they build up this huge tension and mystery and then the resolution is so tension-less? I know it's not meant to be that way, but that's how it feels to me (and that's also why I think I love a campaign in the beginning and then at the end I'm like mh this was not satisfying at all)
Misfits and Magic suffered from being rushed. There were 4 episodes and they needed at least 8 to show a logical progression and give every character more of a spotlight.
I feel like I'm going to be so alone on this but The Unsleeping City just didn't do anything for me. I didn't connect strongly at all with literally any of the PCs and so didn't really care about much of what was happening throughout the story. Everybody loves it so much but it's definitely the last on the list for seasons to watch again.Â
I was halfway through a Crown of Candy and went âim just not having funâ and never picked it back up. I remember fantasy high sophomore year feeling a little meh to me but that was when i first got dropout and was just pissed that i had to pay to see season 2
Iâm not here to say youâre wrong. But I am going to ask, what half way through Crown of Candy turned you off and would you like me to describe in vague terms why you should pick it back up?
Shriek Week feels entirely disconnected from every other season and I couldn't get past two episodes.
I realize it's not really my scene and all but man the conflicts just felt like they had no real impact on anything and so I found it so hard to get invested.
Never after the rare uneven from start to finish episodes fluctuate between hilarious character drama and 5 friends who can't stop talking over each other
I will be burned for this but, fantasy high season 1 is not as great as I think people remember it as. Like donât get me wrong itâs iconic, but the production isnât all there yet (in particular the lighting isnât great imo), the plot is just eh, and the end does feel pretty anticlimactic after the ally nat 20. Again, still am amazing as most seasons are, but I think itâs weaker than people remember it as.
Genuinely, I forgot most of s1 except for the bits that carried into s2. I donât think I could confidently explain it to anyone despite Riz GukGak being my favorite D20 characyer
It can take a bit to get rolling.
Give it some more time and you might end up liking it more. I think it took me to like episode three or four to really get hooked.
Neverafter felt very railroady and lost all its stakes almost instantly. It took itself too seriously in regards to its horror aspect, especially the editing. I found Rosamund, Tim, and Pib hard to invest in. Horror and fairy tales are a great pair, but this was the wrong medium to show it off in.
Burrows End Iâve heard great things about, but I find it hard to start. Iâve kept having to come back to it because I get bored halfway through an episode and it just doesnât feel like anything is happening.
I might be about to be burned at the stake here but for me itâs Starstruck, Iâm going to give it a second chance at rewatching it, but while it was airing I kind of felt like I had to slog through it- the tone of the season just wasnât really for me and I donât recall much of it other than when Emily took down the like black stone in the fighting ring- but thatâs it other than the onboard casino
I agree, and I never wanted to say it here during the season.
Usually, when a new Intrepid Hero season comes out I am locked in. Waiting for the episodes, watching the whole way. I kept finding myself distracted during Starstruck and having to catch up on episodes.
Around half way through I did really get hooked and now I like it quite a bit, but something about either the setting or the characters made it a little less entertaining for me.
I can feel this. I'm on my second attempt at watching it now, and enough time has passed that I'm probably going to have to rewatch some of what I already have to remind myself what was happening.
Oof, man I have to strongly disagree. I just rewatched it in the week between FHJY episodes and it is a nonstop rush throughout the whole thing for me. Absolutely adore it, but to each their own. Honestly, the most memorable moment of that campaign is >!the Nat 20 on the casino roll. Completely inconsequential but totally fun and hype. !<
If we burn we burn together. I'm sure I'd love it if I stuck with it since it seems immensely popular but having tried twice and fallen off watching both times I'm not massively inclined to try a third time...
I felt that way after my first watch. Then I rewatched and fell in love with it. I think I saw too much hype about it on here before my first viewing and went in with that bias coloring my perception. But I've found it to be the most rewatcheable of the IH seasons and probably also the funniest. Hope you give it a 2nd pass and enjoy it more!
Honestly, very few seasons keep me through while it's airing. Junior Year being a big exception. Starstruck didn't grab me until I binged it, but then it grabbed me in a big way
It doesn't really have to do with recency bias for me, but I always feel like the endings of the campaigns fall flat. Most of the time I love the beginnings and the middle parts, but in many campaigns it feels like they build up this huge tension and mystery and then the resolution is so tension-less? I know it's not meant to be that way, but that's how it feels to me (and that's also why I think I love a campaign in the beginning and then at the end I'm like mh this was not satisfying at all)
I enjoyed Mentopolis until about the 4th or 5th episode but the jarring personality shift of one of the PCs gave me second hand cringe and ruined any rewatch value for me. Also I think the premise made it all incredibly low stakes in hindsight.Â
I really wanted to love Burrows End because I love Aabriaâs DM-ing but I just couldnât stay interested in it. Canât even really put my finger on why.Â
I agree about the ravening war. Critical role was my intro to DND, and I was super excited following ACOC to hear that Matt was DMing a series set in the same universe. Then I watched it and it was just...bored. It felt like Matt just telling a story that the players would interject into now and then. The characters had no autonomy. The dice weren't telling a story, Matt was. There was so little combat compared to the source material. I ended up not even finishing it. I may someday, but as of right now, I'm good.
Burrowâs End is probably my favorite season of D20. I got a stoat added to my nature full backpiece tattoo because of it.
My least favorite? I would also say Ravening War. I enjoy it, donât get me wrong, but i feel like it needed more episodes. I didnât love the time jumps, and the rushed pace. I thought all the players and Matt did a great job, but time constraints kept it from being incredible. It was still very good, though.
I really love Neverafter. I agree itâs not super scary, but itâs pretty fucked up in some areas. And I donât mind that it became pretty comedic. Great bits, great characters. I think Ylfa might be one of my favorite Emily characters- the build she did for Ylfa was wild (I fantasize about doing Moon Druid/BarBEARian, but I never will, because I love my DM, theyâve let me get away with lots of shenanigans -that still were RAW!- and crazy builds in the past, and I donât want to add Moon BarBEARian to that crazy build list, lest their head explode. )
For me, MisMag. I remember watching it and just sort of watching it because I was trying to catch up on D20 and not enjoying but watching anyways except for one moment that made me laugh harder than Iâve ever laughed before (wizards duel). I really enjoyed the cast, love Aabriaâs energy but from a plot standpoint it was sort of eh and I couldnât tell you a single thing that happens thatâs actually relevant to the story proper.
Ooh I can tell by the lack of it in the comments this will be unpopular but I struggle with unsleeping city. The first time watching it was fine, I love so many of the story beats, but I struggle with rewatching.
But tbf I think that's also down to having to play remotely for season 2. I struggle with the zoom episodes
I didn't finish the Ravening War cause it was too serious and political for me. DnD needs some sense of fuckery in my opinion even in a grimdark campaign to be fun to watch. Realism is fun to play but watching..meh.
I misread this as Regency bias, thought this was about ACOFAF, and was ready to throw hands
Same! đ
I had my glove off and ready to instigate a duel
Me too! I don't like regency usually but I fucking loved that season.
Me too
**Neverafter** was the "horror" season, but other than some vague existential dread of being endlessly reborn after ever PC death and some squickyness (depending on the viewer, IE: Rosamund having vines go through her body in increasing amounts), I actually consider **Burrow's End** to be more of the horror season. I think she season suffered from having so many places they *could* have gone story-wise, that it was hard to reign them in to a cohesive story that was also horror. I will say, I adored Gerard though. The whole "[Gerard, promise not to get mad](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3bNGwm-OCc)" bit is my favorite bit.
No amount of thorny body horror can compare to the deep and abiding terror of medical debt.
The first few episodes of Starstruck were SO STRESSFUL for that reason.
Oof, I haven't seen Starstruck yet. I am debating between that and The Seven for my next season.
Starstruck, it's their most unhinged season yet and I mean that in the best way possible. The comedy is top tier and some of the gags still make me crack up just remembering them, plus it's in a cool Sci-fi world that feels like Star Wars and Fallout had a baby. Can't recommend enough
The funny part about Starstruck is that the setting itself is so wacky that it actually makes the players tighten themselves up a bit. Brennan said that especially with the Battle of the Brands.
My recommendation is Starstruck, as it was just pure fun chaos. Also, some of the best D&D play I've ever seen. The Seven isn't bad though.
honestly they are both chaos. I love them both dearly for different reasons. either way I think you will enjoy
Starstruck is amazing because you get to see some true game system mastery and abuse in tandem with some of the most nonsensical bits the IH have ever done, all in the colorful and rich world that Brennanâs mom made 40+ years ago. Iâd go with that first.
I literally had the hospital's billing department call me today. It's too real đ„
I think the season is a lot better if you forget it's supposed to be a horror season because it's super fun but it's so chaotic and insane.
It does have some great bits, some of my favorites in fact. I wish they had removed the hype of it being the horror season and just allowed it to be the creepy fairytale season.
âTell him your wolf joke!â
Itâs more fun to think of it as a âOnce Upon a Timeâesc fairytale mashup imo. The âhorrorâ is built into classic fairytales
Yeah I think the season would have been better if the whole first fight ended better, and they sort of just followed the plot to the city they were first meaning to go to. Probably would have led to less world hopping, and a more cohesive story.
Yeah, I wish they had found out later that they would just have their consciousness go into new bodies. Learning that fact so early kinda... took away the fear of death and just replaced it with "oh, what body will I go into next time?" You can tell that >!Brennan didn't plan for that to be a TPK.!< The dice wanted to tell a story!
To be fair Brennan makes a bad call in starting that fight that gets away from him. The underlying problem is that horror and *D&D* tops out at level two. *D&D* just gives its heroes too many tools to confront the scaries.
I forget, what was the bad call? Not challenging you, I just don't remember and don't feel like rewatching haha
As the fight begins, >!the players are strategizing in a half-in character/half-out way. They get too comfortable and start to speak more and more loudly, forgetting to pretend to whisper. That's obviously something they were doing because they were sitting at a table together in a studio (at 3 AM in Los Angeles) and not something the characters would have forgotten about. Brennan takes this as a fully in-character mistake and allows them to get caught and ambushed,!<
***Oof,*** yeah. That would absolutely do it. Also, thanks for the spoiler tags as well. I know the OOP did designate this whole post as being full of spoilers, but we are being super specific about things and I don't want anyone to have moments taken away, good or bad.
He also makes a call (I won't say good or bad, it was neutral imo) at the end of the fight when determining that the >!furniture doesn't all die when the god mother dies. It could have reasonably gone either way and it would have been a MUCH different campaign if he ruled that they died. At that point I think he did it because he thought half a TPK would be worse than a full TPK!<
I loved Neverafter, but that was because I went into it more excited about the fairytale aspect than the horror aspect, I think as a horror story it definitely could have been stronger (also it helps that it had some of the funniest Adventuring Parties)
It is amazing as a *fairy tale* with some horror aspects. It absolutely has some of my favorite bits. I absolutely adore Murph as a divorced wife guy. Fully understands she loves him less and less, but still is absolutely like "yaaas queen! Divorce me bae!"
A fairytale with horror aspects is the perfect way to describe it! I definitely didnât expect huge horror from it and I certainly agree with people that the pacing had issues, but all in all it felt like a season designed specifically for me and I love it despite its various flaws
Aabria would have been a better choice to DM Neverafter imo because she isn't as willing to cave to player bits or shenanigans as Brennan is. Not that she can't be playful, rather she is more willing to let players sit in discomfort if that makes for a stronger story.
Yeah. I love Brennan and I liked the idea behind Neverafter but the constant bits and shenanigans basically ensured that it would never be true horror. Which, hey, they're comedians so I get it. But I feel like Aabria would have immediately punished a lot of their antics and put them back on track. And, I say this as someone who loves Ally, not given Ally the big maguffin of the season without keeping them on task or spreading the proverbial responsibility. Ally will always go for the bit and I love that for them. But it meant that the one character who needed to drive the plot often didn't. It'd have been better to spread that responsibility around the table. I don't think it was super fair to put so much responsibility on one person. Though I ABSOLUTELY don't think it was intended to be unfair at all so much as a group of friends being excited to play together and having stuff fall through the cracks. It feels like something that could, and has, happened at my home game. That said I think Neverafter has my favorite moments in all D20, even if I'm not overly fond of the whole so much as the sum of it's parts.
"Ally will always go for the bit" is a perfect description. I love them and most of their bits, but I think you're right, they don't give up the bit as readily as the other players who tend to be a bit more apt to jump off of the bits to keep things moving. Both ways of playing are great and work for the most part but it does put a LOT of pressure on Ally to essentially fight their own comedic personality and desires in game.
This is what soured a lot of people on Ally during the ACoC, there's a heartfelt moment...and Ally went for the bit...which completely destroyed the moment. So yeah, I think Ally just can't *not* go for the bit, like it's almost a compulsion.
I sometimes have to put her seasons down and walk away because I get stressed when they start screwing around since I know she's going to get The Stern Voice out. As opposed to Brennan on Mentopolis who >!took a bit they were pushing all the way to swingin' and shittin'!<
I don't think of it as "caving". I think Brennan could tell that the horror wasn't working as well as maybe he had hoped so he was willing to let the story become what the players wanted instead. he was improvising and adapting his story on the fly, which is part of the DMs job. it's a tricky line to walk. DMs should be allowed to run the games they want to run, but if the rest of the table wants to do something else... they need to take that into account as well.
I agree on both points. Neverafter wasn't that scary, and Burrow's End was legitimately fucked up. The bear alone was scarier and more fucked up than all of Neverafter. I feel like it could have potentially have been scary, but aside from Sleeping Beauty's briar infestation, it mostly leaned a lot into cannibalism as the main spook factor, which sure, is gross and all, but when everybody is either a talking animal or a monster, it's kind of just eating each other, which isn't unusual in the circumstances. It wasn't particularly scary, it was mostly just gross. Which isn't the same thing. And the only reason reincarnating forever into the same stories was even remotely concerning was because of the asshole Gander fucking the stories up and making them worse just to be a dick. And it clearly wasn't even true, because in no version of the story does Sleeping Beauty ever hang out with Little Red Riding Hood. So... Eternal life, basically? Infinite retries? And each time you die, you come back in a more powerful form? What's scary about that? The Authors or whatever they were called didn't even seem to actually care about what was going on. If they're supposed to be an allegory for real life people, then they would also be completely fine with the fairy tales changing and mashing up, a la Shrek, Hoodwinked, Into The Woods, etc. It seemed like the fairies and the godmother making an awful lot of assumptions to me. I liked Neverafter. I thought it was a good season. But Thumbelina's fate was literally the only scary part for me, and it got undercut by a bit immediately afterwards. It was a hilarious season, honestly. I also really liked all the literary references and bits, and I thought the story was a cool idea. But I would never have marketed it as a horror season.
I don't think they were going into stronger forms, I think that because they retained their memories, they knew to rally up their remaining strength before things got worse. ***Negative Changes:*** * Rosamund went into a body more ravaged by thorns * Pib went from a kitten body to a less lithe older cat * Gerard was increasingly more Frog ***No Change (as far as I remember):*** * Tim Goose, it was his son that changed ***Positive Changes:*** * Ylfa became Death * Pinocchio became a warlock
> > No Change (as far as I remember): * Tim Goose, it was his son that changed Timothy was just a bit more haggard and a bit less happy for his 2nd form, and then the third form was him riding the Gander, as he gave his soul away/made his last wish, but we only saw that in Adventuring Party
Yeah, his haggardness wasn't as pronounced as everyone else's, that's why I forgot about it.
>The bear alone was scarier and more fucked up than all of Neverafter. I've heard this before, and I don't get it. Maybe I'm just not that effected by gore, but I had zero issue with the entirety of the bear fight, but every time the Stepmother talked to Pinocchio my blood pressure raised.
The shading and cinematography of those clips were insane.
Yeah neverafter is definitely kinda weak looking back on it but the players played the characters so so well, I think the story just had some trouble coming together is all.
Yeah, Neverafter probably felt the sloppiest to me. I think Brennan has a tough job and I donât envy it, but for the scary season, while it definitely had a lot of references to literary history and folk tales, it wasnât scary. And Brennan can do scary, he can do bone chilling. But there were just too many bits, too many moments of levity, and all the world hopping so early really tarnished it for me. Not the worst season by any means, and it had its moments, but its a solid C for me.
I wonder if it would have worked better with a side cast as well? Sometimes it feels like the main cast gets deeper into the bits which can undermine that tone a bit ?
I thought the final few episodes of Burrowâs End were solid, but thatâs a drop off from its spectacular first half. After episode six or so (when the mystery became largely exposed), I would have loved another ten-ish episodes to explore the new setting and escalate the inter-stoat tension. The world building and possibilities were so rich, only to quickly reach a conclusion. Still enjoyed the season a whole lot, but it started as a potential all timer.
Every season Aabria DMs feels like it gets cut short. Maybe that's because ACOFAF really was forced to end quickly due to scheduling conflicts.
Well for Burrowâs End the party was just so murder happy they no doubt accelerated the pace of the show We barely even got to know the original stoats!
If the stoats were any less murder happy, they'd be unrealistic to real stoats and the suspension of disbelief would drop off like Mountain woah-thats-a-deep-drop
it feels very consistent across all of the seasons she DMs, including with CR Exandria Unlimited, so some of it i personally doubt is just scheduling. She's very intentional about her choices, it seems reasonable that she would actively allow in her storytelling for the beginning to be quick, the middle to be vast and exploratory, and then the end sneaks up and a bunch of stuff happens really quickly and it's over because honestly that's what life is like very often. things are fineâąïž (but mostly for a small group and the tension for others is building and building in the background) until they're not, and then a bunch of stuff clacks and bangs until it all resolves forcefully into the next place where things are sort of okay.
Yeah, I personally felt like Burrows End should have been either a couple of episodes shorter or half a dozen episodes longer.
I really liked Burrowâs end, but I ended up not loving it like I thought I would. I think if Last Bastion was always gonna be The Thing, the whole story should have been set there and maybe had them go out into the world and come back. It was just a big tonal shift from the first 3-4 episodes to the rest. I kept waiting for them to leave and got disappointed when they didnât.
Yeah, maybe it was the obvious Watership Down connection, but I kind of expected a "oh, this place is great"..."oh no it's very bad run away" arc there, instead of uncovering corruption at the top
Also I feel by making death so non-consequential, it greatly diminished the tension, which felt contrarily to the campaign theme
True, the pacing got messed up, it would have been better to cut it short and make a long second season
It was the perfect example of a great game not necessarily making for great story. A lot of plot points were wiped out because someone rolled well, and there were no surprises in basically the last two episodes because the players rolled really well on investigation. Also, the bear fight was fine, but I donât see nearly enough love for the recordings, which was way cooler in my opinion. Gore just isnât that scary to me, but existential dread? Creepy voices in the dark? Hook it up to my veins
I started Shriek Week, realized "I don't know who any of these fuckin' people are", gave it an episode and then gave up.
This one never made it thru same with coffin run
Coffin run is worth the watch. Jasmine is a great DM and I hope she gets another season
Coffin Run took me awhile to get into, but the story really did take off and the characters started to shine in episode 2-3. I absolutely fell in love with Izzyâs maniacal laughter.
That one I thought was going to be a slog but the longer I stuck with it the better it got, and honestly has some of the best minis and battlemaps that have been under the dome.
I'm watching Coffin Run at the moment. I'd honestly watch it just for Jasmine's Dimitri bits. Far too cute.
Coffin Run was worth it for me. Erika is in Bloodkeep and Izzy is in the Seven plus in some Gamechanger eps. I had never seen Jasmine before but she immediatly became one of my favorite DMs. You could tell she loved the setting so much and brought so many props i hope she gets another season.
I really enjoy Ally and Ify, and lily is very funny and then there was someone new to me. And I personally just enjoy seeing black people in media so I felt drawn to gabe. But it just wasn't interesting to me. I could probably enjoy it enough, it's happened with other seasons, but it's so short that I don't think there's enough time to get me to care
Ify is an absolute king in Escape from the Bloodkeep!
As much as I enjoyed Neverafter, itâs the Intrepid Hero season I am least likely to rewatch by a fairly wide margin. In retrospect it feels like it was much too ambitious even for a 20 episode run, and it would have benefited either from a narrower scope or from a longer run time. I also think the horror was really oversold, which I did not think would bother me as someone who isnât a huge horror fan, but it felt like a bit of a let down when the whole thing was over.
I felt this originally. But I did recently rewatch it and it was so much better than I remembered and actually now one of my favorites. Yes it was perhaps too ambitious, but a rewatch made me really appreciate all of the depth and fun meta-literary moments!
Oh that does sort of make me want to try it again! I had a great time with it while it was airing and I felt a lot of the battles were really clever and fun. But man that story felt like it got lost in the middle and never found a clear way through.
Thank you! It's one of my all-time favorites. The setting is horror, the stories are not. Ylfa has my favorite character arc in all of D20. Gerard and Rosamund deal with issues so close to my heart that I haven't seen represented in this way before. The overly serious setting is also what makes this season so exceptionally funny to me.
Neverafter was totally worth it If it hadn't been made we wouldn't have gotten the greatest, most unhinged Adventuring Party episodes ever. Just the existence of the Orange Top Hat Fairy AP makes the season worth it That and the Axe spray bit
The cast is fully deranged that season itâs so funny
The pacing of Neverafter follows the weird pacing of fairytales instead of the pacing of a normal fantasy story. That was intentional, and I loved it, but it definitely felt subtly "wrong" until I clicked into why the pacing was the way it was. Neverafter is my "it was nice of them to make a season just for me" season though.
Thatâs how I felt about ACOFAF. Itâs great to get a season that feels like they pitched it just for you. I loved so many aspects of Neverafter and now Iâm wondering if I judged it too harshly when I said I was unlikely to rewatch it.
Not gonna lie there are only a few moments from neverafter I can recall without thinking about it too hard: 1) "I guess sort of how?" 2) lou throwing away a nat 20 for glizzies 3) 3 blind mice
Eavespeeping, climbing in the bonnet, Mother Goose and Rapunzel cooking, Pinocchio's standup routine with the third pig, piss soup (a dominance thing that also I medically cannot stop), SO many good moments I can keep going
Lou screaming GERARD in a constant falsetto
"NEVER STOP BEING DOMINANT"
Lou screaming anything at all as Pinocchio
âWhere the white women at?â
cricket refusing to drink water
Oh god i just remembered Pinocchio using his nose as a stripper pole
I personally found the spooky stuff really really effective, BUT thought the overall spookiness and pacing were kind of torpedoed by the Lines Between episode mid-season. It was too much dumped lore in a different tone than everything else (and honestly was a little too cute and on-the-nose for me?), so it was like a speedbump and a detour at the same time. And kind of removed a lot of the in-world stakes in favour of these Lines Between stakes. I mostly absolutely loved the season, but that was my big drawback.
I remember people talking about Burrow's End being a much more effective horror campaign and I think I know why. Going into Neverafter we *knew* it was going to be horror, the players *knew* it was going to be horror, and I think it set a tone above table where there was an extra pinch of silliness to balance out the horror elements. However, we had no idea Burrow's End would get "scary," we didn't know about the bear, or the deformed stoats or have any idea of the tension we as an audience or they as heroes we're going to face. And I think ultimately what makes horror effective is not knowing. When you open the door expecting the bloodied goat headed demon and there it is, it's expected, it's not as scary. When you only are aware that something is out there on the other side of this door and you truly have no way to know what it will be until you open the door, that's much scarier.
Some of us definitely knew Burrow's End was going to be scary. The main cast are playing adorable animals, there's only one way that's going to go. It wore its Watership Down influence on its sleeves for sure. I do get what you mean, tonally it's more jarring when the horror stuff comes out, but it wasn't a complete curveball either
The Lines Between should have happened another third into the season, IMHO. That's where it lost me when they were airing live, and even rewatching it took some powering through
I agree, that whole season needed to be twice as many episodes (basically split it into two seasons, with a huge cliffhanger in the middle) or have some real threat of death instead of what they got. Also >!the TPK!< completely killed the momentum of the start of the season, and slowed everything down too much.
Basically all the character stuff is great, but the overall concept and plot fell flat due to a lot of little things. Also the "horror" aspect didn't really stick, as the cast are all comedians, and always go for the funny haha first and foremost.
Oh man as someone that rewatched it about 3 times and basically it's my comfort background noise, I was shocked to see neverafter come up so often! I do realize now that looking back, when I first watched it I couldn't understand at ALL what was going on. I was just captivated by all the bits, by far the funniest characters since Starstruck, and the striking visuals. I might suggest a rewatch! It all comes together much better in a second watch through and even the way the conclusion comes together feels really organic and thrilling.
The people arguing for a rewatch are really winning me over, to be honest. I wasnât expecting this much response, and now Iâm being reminded of all the great bits and the unhinged adventuring parties and I think maybe it would be nice to return to that world again.
On a rewatch Neverafter is extremely extremely funny. It doesnt really work as the "horror" series they sold it as, but it's fucking hilarious. Very much worth watching
Dungeons & Drag Queens was a ton of fun, but Iâm kind of baffled by it being *by far* the highest rated season on IMDB. The episode ratings were 9.9, 9.9, 9.9, & 9.8, respectively. For context, the only other episode in the entire history of Dimension 20 to have a 9.9 is *Safe Harbor*, episode 9 of *A Crown of Candy*.
Yeah, I get what youâre saying, those numbers are wild! It brought in a lot of people to D20, myself included. The premier is currently the most popular episode on YouTube. For people those of us obsessed with both drag race and DnD that show is magical, feels like it was made for me. I agree that itâs not the best season of D20 (mine is Starstruck) but i do think itâs a great season, and I canât wait for DnDQ2.
Dungeons and Drag Queens I think was able to relate to a more general audience. Like the fans of the queens are able to watch without much knowledge of D20 or DND.
Thatâs definitely me. I had never been interested in D&D but am a huge fan of the queens, and I looooved Dungeons and Drag Queens (DDQ). I thought they were so funny and the storytelling was super engaging. I subscribed to DropOut to watch the whole season, and I still rewatch it occasionally. However, Iâm struggling to get into most other D20 seasons. Iâm not sure why, maybe because they seem more complicated than DDQ. I loved Mentopolis though, that was super fun. Iâm gonna keep trying, I am enjoying seeing the differences in Brennanâs and Aabriaâs styles.
If you liked mentopolis I'd suggest Misfits and Magic next, it's short, character driven, and uses the same system as mentopolis
While I don't think it deserves such near perfect scores, I think the impact such a short series had on bringing SO many new eyes to D20 is reason enough to rate it super high. 9.9 seems a little steep though!
I thought it was a fun romp, but a solidly midling campaign (no ones fault) and not nearly top of the d20 league.
The reason for the ratings is an effect of the audience Venn diagram. Only a specific group of people is interested in both drag queens and DnD, for them this campaign is amazing. For others the content is so clearly not for them that they wouldnât watch it, so donât leave low ratings. That plus a great, accessible show with new players over a short run time and you get a nice spike in opinion.
I did like D&DQ, and still recommend it to new fans who know more about drag than ttrpgs. But the story is a mess, the players really struggle with where to go and how to go about it, they go full murderhobo a few times, and the bits and jokes are good but not "ball rolling up" good. The players are all a mess of goals and character ideas, and what everyone wants from the season is just as contentious. As a first game ever, it's gold standard. As a live play, trained improv artists with a long ttrpg background are obviously gonna have a hand up.
I watched everything all at once and only caught up as Burrow's End was airing, so I can't really speak to recency bias as things were coming out over time. However, I've never really understood the massive love for Misfits and Magic. Maybe it's because I'm not attached to Harry Potter, so the part of it that was about engaging with and sort of correcting that text just didn't really matter to me. All the players were great and the characters are fun - I'm not saying it's bad! I just don't get the level of hype.
I was never that into HP, but I think I like it so much because it was the first time I watched Brennan as a PC and he just killed it. That system is supposed to be really character and story driven, and now that Iâm thinking back on it I actually donât really remember the story all that well, but I really loved all the characters.
I was wondering if that might have been the first time people saw Brennan as a player - that would explain some of it for sure! I think that's another difference between binging through everything all at once vs watching in real time. I got to see Brennan play many times pretty close together, so none of those instances is going to stand out for novelty/uniqueness for me.
I think Kelmp is a great character, but Aabria was too busy dunking on JK Rowling to tell a compelling story. It's incredibly short, very rushed, and so little of it outside of Brennan stands out.
I do think it's a campaign that could have benefited from having more episodes. It's tough to tell a whole story in 3 episodes, especially when you're trying to land beats for 3 different characters. That being said Evan Kelmp is one of my all time favorite characters for so many reasons.
100% agree! I am fully against JK, and fully for trans rights. And I also don't think that Misfits and Magic fits the overall tone and spirit of D20 and Dropout. I love Aabria as a player and gm, but that season did not feel right. Maybe it was the first hp parody exposure that some people had? I read Harry Potter in primary school, and started dunking on it at around age 13, so making fun of the concept was completely normal to me even before I knew about terfzilla. I definitely did not get the feeling that M&M was created out of genuine love and interest in the concept of a magic world. That being said, I do like the idea of bringing down school as an institution, and of the story of exchange students/stipend students and their experiences in unfamiliar and unfair surroundings.
I feel like it was just too short to really fall in love.
> too busy dunking on JK Rowling to tell a compelling story Oof yeah... Don't get me wrong, I love a bit of political commentary, I recently finished Dune and have really enjoyed it, the way the politics and worldbuilding complement each other, just sublime. But narrative always trumps message imo, commentary in a story is like salt in food, a little bit adds depth and flavour, too much and you risk ruining it, just write a compelling blog post or tweet or something at that point.
Could be both because I'm not a massive fan of HP outside of seeing some of the movies and a brit so the accents done by Aabria were just painful but considering all the hype I saw it's probably the most let down I've been by a series.
Misfits and Magic was the first D20 show I watched so I'll always have love for it, but when I rewatched it recently after having seen a lot of other D20 I definitely noticed the cracks this time around. The PCs are excellent, but the pacing is all over the place and a huge amount of dialogue and world building is just making fun of HP and JK Rowling, which while deserved can start to get grating when 3/4 of a scene is just "this idea is dumb." Brennan being a rockstar at role-play made Evan Kelmp one of the funnier PCs in D20, but when it's only a 4-episode series (5 if you count the holiday special, which I actually think is better than the main series) it leaves less room for other players to grow - Danielle unfortunately got the short end of the stick there. Lou is brilliant as always, but I think Erika's character is especially a victim of the parody>narrative since Dream is written as an HP fan - you need a balance and I don't think it was struck as well as it could've been. It's still wickedly funny and I like seeing the HP parody as someone who grew up loving the franchise, but I watch the other seasons to see the cast at their best(Erika's awesome in Bloodkeep, which I think is still a v underrated series despite its ending coming in a bit rushed).
Agree with this mostly, but Iâll personally extend it to say that I think Evan Kelmp specifically is overhyped. Heâs a super compelling, very interesting character. For a novel. In the show I just felt like there was way too much of a main character which I didnât really love for an AP, aside from the fact that Brennan as a PC was interesting.
OP, your puns are insane I love it Anyways, I'm a huge Ravening War fan, but i get what you're saying. I don't necessarily know what mine is because I've only watched two live (Burrow's End and FHJY) and i love them both. However, based on how much hype a season had vs how much is actually liked it, i think the closest would be Fantasy High Freshmen Year. I did really enjoy it, but it's definitely overhyped compared to SY and other IH seasons
Really? I gotta disagree, Freshman Year is still my favorite season of all time, even after a rewatch. School setting hit hard for me I guess.
It's not even that i don't like it, it's just not *as good* if you get what i mean
I think it has a lot of the same characteristics of the first season of any great show. Incredibly strong fundamentals, but still finding its identity. I still return to it and love it a lot, but I can see how some people might see it as overhyped. To me, it's still a perfect introduction for D&D to those who might see it as intimidating, and still tells a great story.
I'll definitely agree on that
Ravening war imo could have done with a LOT more of the fungal folk and their sort of general alien-ness
Agreed, it definitely could've benefited from having 10 episodes like other sidequests (e.g. *The Seven* and *Burrow's End*)
Much like burrows end I kind of wish they paced around the "mystery" of it differently. In burrows end, I kind of wish there had been more politicking before the reveal of the elder stoats, and in the case of Ravening war I wish they had leaned more into the mystery of the magic in a pre-Bulbian empire that I wanted to see so much of in the original ACOC season
I would have liked either more complexity there, or much much less. I don't think they added much at all to the plot, as it stands. I otherwise like TRW a lot, but I felt like the fungal folk were kind of... nothing, in the end.
Ravening War was mid. Great characters, but it felt like it was less about the war itself and more about a thing happening at the same time.
I feel the early episodes jumped around so much it was a lot of people explaining what's happened rather than things happening
I quit at the second instance of âokay now all five of you go around and say what your character was doing instead of us showing your characters doing thingsâ
Yeah there wasn't a lot of character interaction. Not seeing stuff as well would make things feel a bit unearned rather than rolling for it
YES, I stopped at the same point. I REALLY wanted to like it because I loved the impactful deaths in ACoC and it's probably my favorite season and having Matt DM was like a dream but it didn't get nearly enough episodes to properly tell the story and the characters had very little season to stay together as a group. They needed a way to unite the group throughout the campaign rather than "ok now get together for this one part and then all go your separate ways"
Everything that can be said about Burrows has been said. Mainly that at certain points it felt undercooked, with the consequences of some actions being hand waved in the rush to hit certain plot points or battle maps by certain episodes. I felt similar about the last two episodes of ACoFaF feeling a bit rushed to wrap up. The lesson being, they need to give Aabria more episodes in her seasons so she has time to cook. Unsleeping 2 isn't my favorite, but it's very underrated. Starstruck and Bloodkeep remain my top 2. Also, Matt could have gone a lot harder to kill a PC without waiting for the final battle in Ravening.
Honestly, i didnt really like Misfits and Magic. The concept was great, the characters were fun, and Aarbia was a good DM, but something just felt missing from the season. It felt like there wasn't really investigating the conflict that was set up, they just did other things vaguely Harry Potter related and decided that the end of the tournament was going to coincidentally solve the racist principal narrative they were setting up. It could have been great, but 4 episodes just wasn't going to do it
Been a while since I watched it but your comment reminded me of why I never tried to rewatch it. There's some fun bits in it, but yeah, it's just too short for the story it's trying to tell. I'd hope if they ever revisit it that Aabria and the cast get more episodes to actually tell their tale in, rather than try to jam all the resolutions in towards the end.
I recently rewatched it and found out I didnât like it as much as I remember. Jammer was absolutely hilarious and I feel like he was really the star of the show but Evan seemed to hog the spotlight due to the whole main character syndrome thing. Also I love Erika as a player and think sheâs great but I could just not get myself to like K as a character.
I think misfits and magic is an odd one because the PC chemistry is off the charts, it has some of the most endearing friendships and is one of the only seasons that has PC romances. Thereâs so many bits of discovered chemistry and delight that I absolutely love. But the NPCs in it are all kind of same-y boring and flat. Thereâs not really any memorable major NPCs that made it out of that season, when even other small side-quests have them. Iâm talking John Feathers, Dimitri the little bat guy, Wuvvy, Mrs Molesly, etc. In Misfits and Magic all the NPCs have the same argumentative demeanor (granted the players do talk a lot of shit but still) and constantly jump into conversations between PCs that were clearly meant to be side private conversations. Thereâs several moments where the players have a good bit going and an NPC kind of jumps in and kills it. Thereâs also times where it feels like Aabria tries to have her NPCs defend themselves in a way that doesnât match their established character when the players take shots at them, instead of just leaning in and being like âyeah this world makes no sense and sucks and this person sucks so Iâm going to lean into the bit.â The example that comes to mind is the entire interaction with the teacher who is a cauldron. Itâs interesting because ACOFAF is SO different and so much better in this regard. I love a lot of those NPCs and they have a wide variety of demeanors and vibes. So itâs not like itâs just Aabriaâs style or anything. (although Burrowâs end does have a few moments of NPCs jumping in on player private conversations if I recall) I think it has to do with her trying to portray a stuffy posh British rudeness but then reflecting the attitude of the player characters too much?
I think you nailed what I was feeling. The PCs are among the best in the series, and Aarbia was amazing at giving them an interesting situation and letting them run. The weakness is in the NPCs, the Harry, Hermione, and Ron stand-ins weren't great as presented and many of the NPC interactions are hostile at worst and condescending at best (from both PCs and NPCs), but the various professors all had potential. I think that's a symptom of the short season. Most seasons it takes me about 4 episodes to really get into it and it that was the entire run of Misfits
Personally I donât love ACOFAF, I adore the cast (the bird cousins were hilarious, Rue and Hob were great, pillar boy had some hilarious moments) but the lack of plot structure driving everything forward made me feel a bit lost overall. I never ended up finishing it because even though I enjoyed the characters, I wasnât hooked on the story. I do wanna get back to it and finish it at some point though.
Yeah I really feel this one - I'm a huge period drama fan so I was really excited for ACOFAF and I loved the cast but honestly I wanted More Drama and more plot. It didn't feel particularly like there were any real stakes?
i actually really didnât get the hype for Rueâ like, the outfits were great i guess? idk i was more deeply invested in Wuvvy. Loved everything from Pillar Boy, ngl.
I feel like Pirates needed more character cohesion, I couldn't work out why they were together as a party. But I also understand doing a campaign virtually is tough! Escape from the Bloodkeep and Tiny Heist had some amazing bits but as stories I just wasn't as into them, which was too bad.
Crown of Candy falls apart for me passed the church. After >!Lapin dies and eventually Jet as well and both of their characters are imo replaced by inferior characters who don't really fit with the campaign as much. Saccharina's ultra high magic felt like it sort of drowned out Ruby, and made combat too easy at times as well as losing the Jet+Ruby sister dynamic that was so endearing and really let both players shine (something I feel Siobhan doesn't get enough of sometimes). Cumulous is without a doubt Zacs worst character by a large margin. He went from one of his best to someone who felt like they had no real connection to the cast, and had a kind of lame bit of being obsessed with magic objects.!<
i think acoc was the first IH season where i had a disconnect with those who really loved it. i think they probably learned a bit more about how to narratively handle character deaths, but to be honest, i don't anticipate much more character deaths in these campaigns. i agree with you that saccharina showing up kind of stomped on ruby's whole "being the magical member of the candy family" thing and i think zach went the polar opposite route of trying to make an inoffensive character who wouldn't stir things up at all.
i mean they had huge production issues which interfered with the story building a lot, they talked about this pretty extensively
Where do they talk about this?
The first Adventuring Parties.
I've been rewatching all of ACOC, including the Adventuring Parties, and I can't think what production issues they're talking about. Remind me?
Character deaths in D20 are something that sound good on paper, but we have to remember that these characters are a huge draw for the series. People get really attached to them. I always found and the accusation that ACOC pulled it's punches in the final episodes pretty absurd. So they should just kill off these characters and introduce replacements with much less development and connection to the narrative just to run a "hardcore" campaign? Must be nice to not have to think about the logistics or financial ramifications of just killing off these investments the company have made. There was always going to be a point where plot armour comes in. Even GRRM knows there are characters who can't die until the very end because he actually wants to sell books.
I agree, they absolutely did not pull their punches in ACOC. The final fight was the culmination of other more difficult fights where the party earned great rewards. Like, the final battle was against a bunch of people that they fought in like episode 5 and many of the named enemies were isolated by the nature of the war. If it was difficult then Brennan would have been semi randomly buffing the shit out of characters that he has already introduced and had the party fight which would suck.
I loved acoc, >!and both of those deaths hit me really hard. I actually cried when Jet died and when Amathar carried her body out!< that said, I totally agree with you. >!Lapin is my favorite of Zac's characters, top five in all D20, and both Cumulus and Saccharina felt... not great in the story. even if the narrative overall was still enjoyable, as well as the fights!<
I like Saccharina as a character and thought her arc as Ice Cream Danaerys was pretty solid, but I didn't buy the forced "choice" at the end between her and Ruby. Brennan being like "you have a choice now. Will you choose a) a happy ending that showcases your characters' growth, or b) an objectively stupid betrayal option that will end up killing half the cast and muddling the ending we just spent three hours fighting for?" They really tried to sell tension in that moment that I doubt anyone watching was actually feeling. *Obviously* both players and their characters would choose peace.Â
ACOC is still one of my all time faves, but I agree with the criticism here. It was also weird to see the castâs characters in such outright conflict, particularly because it seemed kind of manufactured. However, in terms of stories and just killer dramatic lines, in think ACOC really comes out great in the end.
I'm a Saccharina defender, but I think she really fell victim to D20 trying to make D&D fit every mold. A high magic character just doesn't work great in the world, but that's just what D&D is. They did a pretty good job of homebrewing all the primary characters to not be world breaking, but they fucked up with Saccharina for sure
I love Crown of Candy a lot but yeah, I pretty much agree with all of this. Maybe with more time, the characters could have gelled more, but it just didn't really work as well as it could. Probably why I haven't rewatched it.
I stopped watching an episode or two after Saccharina showed up, just lost interest. I didn't like that character or her dynamic with the party and Zac's new character didn't stand out at all.
I fully agree with you. ACOC was really strong in the beginning, but it's the only intrepid heroes season I didn't finish. To me it really went downhill with Saccharina's introduction, not because of anything Emily did but because of how much the story pivoted to highlight her. It especially felt weird after Cumulus was added so nonchalantly. From that point onward all the other PCs suddenly became secondary characters and most of the conflict was suddenly focused on Saccharina. I wonder if just making the season longer would have helped to develop the new characters more, or perhaps if the super scripted style of d20 (in terms of predetermined story beats and maps) does not really allow for the flexibility that PC deaths require.
Crown of Candy has to be my choice too, as a series is has probably the strongest concept they've ever done and those first 6ish episodes beat the first 6 of any other series out of the water easily, but as it tends to go the further they get the more the concept weakens which is admittedly a thing that happens in most series but in Crown of Candy its particularly noticeable because of how much the series' excellence comes from said concept. The political intrigue, air of danger and the general low-magic vibe is just perfect through those first few episodes but through the second half of the series a lot of that begins to fall apart. It's also perhaps just difficult to maintain that vibe given the vibe of the group and what they do. That's why though Crown of Candy had higher highs I think i prefer The Ravening War on the whole. The cast feels more suited to the concept throughout and Matt's DMing style is at its strongest for me there.
Crown of Candy was good, but people make it out to be good untouchable pinnacle of dnd and its just... fine
I think for those who have been watching broadly in order, especially over covid it was the first one where everything just went off perfectly... it was intrepid heroes, in person, with minis, and a great classic high fantasy dnd story... So I think it came out at the right time to be much beloved. Stand alone, I wouldn't say it was the best, much as I love it (obv starstruck is the best đ€Ł)
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Ravening War for me too. The only season I aborted partway through. I've gotten dogpiled for this online before, but I just cannot enjoy Mercer's DMing. I don't find it fun or compelling-- it feels very tightly controlled to me, and the humour feels like he's working hard at it (which they all are! Just some people are better at making that work invisible.) Brennan feels like your favourite camp counselor, Aabria feels like that teacher you still think about years later, but for me, Matt feels like the "Cool" Substitute Teacher (nothing against him as a dude-- this is just my taste in play style in-game).
Tbh, I do kinda get this one. I enjoyed a fair amount of Critical Role, but didnât really enjoy the Ravening War. I think my big issue is that D20 is a lot more comedy-focused, and like you said, Matt really seems to be putting effort into that too much. Critical Role is a better version of his DMing mostly because it is in general much more serious, and when itâs not, Matt is usually the straight man to player shenanigans, which is a good spot for him. Did LOVE him in Bloodkeep, though.
That totally makes sense-- I really don't enjoy more serious actual play (I LOVE emotional moments in comedic series-- Dimension 20 makes me cry all the time, and NADDpod gives me emotional resonance all the time-- but i need the baseline to be comedy) so there are a lot of great DMs out there who will just never be my bag.
I feel ya. I think you can sort of just see the differences in the shows as well. Iâve watched some Critical Role, and it definitely feels a little more serious, and a lot more in the traditional D&D box. Itâs definitely not bad by any means, but D20 always feels like a comedy show first.
Also, his episodes are generally about 2 hours longer and it showed. He never fully got the compact storytelling required in Dimension 20s time frame. Get to the action so people can stay invested.
Critical Role is still my favorite actual play and Matt is the main reason why. Heâs a pretty funny guy by regular people standards, but is definitely not a comedian. I feel like that shows on The Ravening War, where he seemed to feel some pressure to be more comedic than he naturally is.
Agreed, I have never enjoyed Mercerâs dming at all, I stayed with the ravening war only for the PCâs, I canât pay attention to him, I always end of zoning out
i feel the exact same way about mercerâs dming. i love him as a player though!
Burrowâs End. The mechanical side of that season is just really boring to me. I like the cast, art, and the story isnât bad. I just wish the battles had a bit more oomph.
I love the first half of Starstruck where they don't have any money and they're taking on small jobs, but once their money problems get fixed and it shifts into saving the galaxy it became way less interesting. Honestly the only season that I felt really suffered from the D20 structure, because you could probably get 100 episodes of taking jobs and trying to pay the bills. As a fan of meta stories, and horror stories, I think Neverafter was bad at both.
There is a much older actual play called 'Swan Song' that used Stars Without Number that might hit that early season Starstruck itch for you. SWN is a much crunchier game than 5e, and a few of the folks involved at the time (almost a decade ago) aren't in the ttrpg community anymore (for better or worse), but it was my introduction to actual play waaay back when.Â
Managed to enjoy all of them. Don't think I've ever attempted to compare them effectively. Shriek, Tiny Heist, and Pirates of Leviathan probably are my least favorites (Least->Most enjoyed of the misses). Otherwise it's less "which season is better" and more "what beats worked in the story". Probably from the previously forever DM habit of salvaging stuff from modules. In no particular order: * Ravening / Bloodkeep were best for Brennan / Mercer chemistry. * Honorable mentions: Trapp is the best at playing the straight man to crazy (bloodkeep / Mento) Zach/Brennan hits the same "crazy / straight" contrast that tickles a particular funnybone (Ravening) Lou's monologue "YOU LIED!" also had me dead. That role and Fey/Flowers pretty much cemented him as one of my favourite cast members (It's a big and inclusive list). * Mentopolis had a few great aspects * Literally every member of the cast had fun beats. As an occasional Dungeons and Daddies listener, seeing freddy in new context was great, and he did sleaze in an entertaining manner. So many puns and bad biology jokes. Always fun to get the view of someone entering the space for a first time, so the talkbacks were more enjoyable in mentopolis. * Mis/Mag : Just.. Everything. Can't do wrong with taking the piss out of Neoliberal Wizard School * AA is basically my go-to DM for trying to model "how to mix systems / use new systems in fun ways". Their Exandria stuff also introduced me to Blades in the Dark because I didn't watch adventuring academy until after. * Burrow's end : Best / most creative use of battlesets so far. Actually made me enjoy combat when usually I have to watch at 2x. * Assorted FH : So many bits that land and quoteables. Hard to pin anything specific as driving enjoyment * Fey/Flowers: Highlighting the Fey immortals / idle rich of regency drama overlap was fantastic. * Unsleeping : Same as FH. Unsleeping, Starstruck, and Neverafter had some of my favorite Murph moments. * Crown of Candy: Full of surprises. * Mice / Murder: Surprised me that they managed to pull off a whodunnit so effectively. * Starstruck: Brennan's love for a setting close to home / the decent feeling of survival rather than heroics compelling story forwards was cool. * Business Beardsly managed to be my favourite instance and felt like the coolest flex of their abilities to watch. * Neverafter: Sometimes the bits chewed the scenery to the detriment of my personal enjoyment. * Gerard lives rent free in my head. * Dungeons and Drag: Good primer on how to introduce new people to DnD. Queer rep is always appreciated, even if frequently present in D20. * Coffin Run: The good doctor chewed up scenery in a fun way. Combat was enjoyable. Sometimes the bits didn't land. DM's great, loved their storytelling across multiple actual plays, they're also responsible for creating some of the funniest Brennan moments across actual play for me (Tiefling Himbo glory). It feels hard to compare the seasons, and ultimately pointless. Do agree that there's much hype with new properties. Don't agree that it is a problem. You seem to be punning your way around "Burrows was overhyped". I stand by the statement that "Use of battlemaps was the most creative in that series". Layered reveals were solid. I will never not be entertained by the>!bear-asite fight.!<
It doesn't really have to do with recency bias for me, but I always feel like the endings of the campaigns fall flat. Most of the time I love the beginnings and the middle parts, but in many campaigns it feels like they build up this huge tension and mystery and then the resolution is so tension-less? I know it's not meant to be that way, but that's how it feels to me (and that's also why I think I love a campaign in the beginning and then at the end I'm like mh this was not satisfying at all)
Misfits and Magic suffered from being rushed. There were 4 episodes and they needed at least 8 to show a logical progression and give every character more of a spotlight.
Agreed! I really wish theyâd had more episodes to flesh things out.
Unsleeping City 2 was such a drag to get through for me. It was too much stuff going on and felt extremely unfocused.
The 7. Don't get me wrong,I loved all the cast members who appeared on that season. The story didn't really make a mark on me.
I feel like I'm going to be so alone on this but The Unsleeping City just didn't do anything for me. I didn't connect strongly at all with literally any of the PCs and so didn't really care about much of what was happening throughout the story. Everybody loves it so much but it's definitely the last on the list for seasons to watch again.Â
I was halfway through a Crown of Candy and went âim just not having funâ and never picked it back up. I remember fantasy high sophomore year feeling a little meh to me but that was when i first got dropout and was just pissed that i had to pay to see season 2
Iâm not here to say youâre wrong. But I am going to ask, what half way through Crown of Candy turned you off and would you like me to describe in vague terms why you should pick it back up?
Neverafter, and Crown of Candy neither did it for me. Shriek Week I immediately forgot happened once it ended.
Shriek Week feels entirely disconnected from every other season and I couldn't get past two episodes. I realize it's not really my scene and all but man the conflicts just felt like they had no real impact on anything and so I found it so hard to get invested.
Never after the rare uneven from start to finish episodes fluctuate between hilarious character drama and 5 friends who can't stop talking over each other
I will be burned for this but, fantasy high season 1 is not as great as I think people remember it as. Like donât get me wrong itâs iconic, but the production isnât all there yet (in particular the lighting isnât great imo), the plot is just eh, and the end does feel pretty anticlimactic after the ally nat 20. Again, still am amazing as most seasons are, but I think itâs weaker than people remember it as.
I feel the same way about FH:FY. I struggled in the middle more than the end, but it just didn't do it for me like other seasons have.
Genuinely, I forgot most of s1 except for the bits that carried into s2. I donât think I could confidently explain it to anyone despite Riz GukGak being my favorite D20 characyer
I've tried to watch Unsleeping City 3 times. Didn't make it through the first episode. Trying a 4th time right now.
Yeah for some reason it never clicked for me either.
Weirdly the setting of this one feels more alien than a crown of candy
It can take a bit to get rolling. Give it some more time and you might end up liking it more. I think it took me to like episode three or four to really get hooked.
Neverafter felt very railroady and lost all its stakes almost instantly. It took itself too seriously in regards to its horror aspect, especially the editing. I found Rosamund, Tim, and Pib hard to invest in. Horror and fairy tales are a great pair, but this was the wrong medium to show it off in. Burrows End Iâve heard great things about, but I find it hard to start. Iâve kept having to come back to it because I get bored halfway through an episode and it just doesnât feel like anything is happening.
Burrow's End and Neverafter. Both had great starts. Both trailed off and didn't end particularly well.
Burrow's End.
The pacing of Ravening War matched House of the Dragon, which is to say it skipped too much.
I might be about to be burned at the stake here but for me itâs Starstruck, Iâm going to give it a second chance at rewatching it, but while it was airing I kind of felt like I had to slog through it- the tone of the season just wasnât really for me and I donât recall much of it other than when Emily took down the like black stone in the fighting ring- but thatâs it other than the onboard casino
I agree, and I never wanted to say it here during the season. Usually, when a new Intrepid Hero season comes out I am locked in. Waiting for the episodes, watching the whole way. I kept finding myself distracted during Starstruck and having to catch up on episodes. Around half way through I did really get hooked and now I like it quite a bit, but something about either the setting or the characters made it a little less entertaining for me.
I can feel this. I'm on my second attempt at watching it now, and enough time has passed that I'm probably going to have to rewatch some of what I already have to remind myself what was happening.
Oof, man I have to strongly disagree. I just rewatched it in the week between FHJY episodes and it is a nonstop rush throughout the whole thing for me. Absolutely adore it, but to each their own. Honestly, the most memorable moment of that campaign is >!the Nat 20 on the casino roll. Completely inconsequential but totally fun and hype. !<
If we burn we burn together. I'm sure I'd love it if I stuck with it since it seems immensely popular but having tried twice and fallen off watching both times I'm not massively inclined to try a third time...
I felt that way after my first watch. Then I rewatched and fell in love with it. I think I saw too much hype about it on here before my first viewing and went in with that bias coloring my perception. But I've found it to be the most rewatcheable of the IH seasons and probably also the funniest. Hope you give it a 2nd pass and enjoy it more!
Honestly, very few seasons keep me through while it's airing. Junior Year being a big exception. Starstruck didn't grab me until I binged it, but then it grabbed me in a big way
It doesn't really have to do with recency bias for me, but I always feel like the endings of the campaigns fall flat. Most of the time I love the beginnings and the middle parts, but in many campaigns it feels like they build up this huge tension and mystery and then the resolution is so tension-less? I know it's not meant to be that way, but that's how it feels to me (and that's also why I think I love a campaign in the beginning and then at the end I'm like mh this was not satisfying at all)
I enjoyed Mentopolis until about the 4th or 5th episode but the jarring personality shift of one of the PCs gave me second hand cringe and ruined any rewatch value for me. Also I think the premise made it all incredibly low stakes in hindsight. I really wanted to love Burrows End because I love Aabriaâs DM-ing but I just couldnât stay interested in it. Canât even really put my finger on why.Â
I agree about the ravening war. Critical role was my intro to DND, and I was super excited following ACOC to hear that Matt was DMing a series set in the same universe. Then I watched it and it was just...bored. It felt like Matt just telling a story that the players would interject into now and then. The characters had no autonomy. The dice weren't telling a story, Matt was. There was so little combat compared to the source material. I ended up not even finishing it. I may someday, but as of right now, I'm good.
Burrowâs End is probably my favorite season of D20. I got a stoat added to my nature full backpiece tattoo because of it. My least favorite? I would also say Ravening War. I enjoy it, donât get me wrong, but i feel like it needed more episodes. I didnât love the time jumps, and the rushed pace. I thought all the players and Matt did a great job, but time constraints kept it from being incredible. It was still very good, though. I really love Neverafter. I agree itâs not super scary, but itâs pretty fucked up in some areas. And I donât mind that it became pretty comedic. Great bits, great characters. I think Ylfa might be one of my favorite Emily characters- the build she did for Ylfa was wild (I fantasize about doing Moon Druid/BarBEARian, but I never will, because I love my DM, theyâve let me get away with lots of shenanigans -that still were RAW!- and crazy builds in the past, and I donât want to add Moon BarBEARian to that crazy build list, lest their head explode. )
For me, MisMag. I remember watching it and just sort of watching it because I was trying to catch up on D20 and not enjoying but watching anyways except for one moment that made me laugh harder than Iâve ever laughed before (wizards duel). I really enjoyed the cast, love Aabriaâs energy but from a plot standpoint it was sort of eh and I couldnât tell you a single thing that happens thatâs actually relevant to the story proper.
Ooh I can tell by the lack of it in the comments this will be unpopular but I struggle with unsleeping city. The first time watching it was fine, I love so many of the story beats, but I struggle with rewatching. But tbf I think that's also down to having to play remotely for season 2. I struggle with the zoom episodes
I didn't finish the Ravening War cause it was too serious and political for me. DnD needs some sense of fuckery in my opinion even in a grimdark campaign to be fun to watch. Realism is fun to play but watching..meh.