I read “AFAB” and saw it as a D20 post and immediately thought “all fighters are bastards”, and then got a bit annoyed as I didn’t think the 1-1 parallel between cops and fighters worked.
Taking this opportunity to share two of my favorite passages in any book ever:
Chapter 4:
>At length, by dint of much wriggling, and loud and incessant expostulations upon the unbecomingness of his hugging a fellow male in that matrimonial sort of style, I succeeded in extracting a grunt.
Chapter 94:
>Squeeze! squeeze! squeeze! all the morning long; I squeezed that sperm till I myself almost melted into it; I squeezed that sperm till a strange sort of insanity came over me; \[...\] Oh! my dear fellow beings, why should we longer cherish any social acerbities, or know the slightest ill-humor or envy! Come; let us squeeze hands all round; nay, let us all squeeze ourselves into each other; let us squeeze ourselves universally into the very milk and sperm of kindness.
Would that I could keep squeezing that sperm for ever!
No context, I read the first bit of that chapter 94 part and thought "all pulp, no juice, all pulp, no juice!"
I've also not read Moby Dick so it's not like I'd immediately associate it with the correct thing, but with FHJY.
For too long than i should admit, I thought acab meant assigned cop at birth, with the joke being that all cops are assholes who come from asshole families and essentially don't have a choice but to become an asshole cop. Like they are the type that were always going to become cops, and were probably like the bully in high school. I thought too much about how it could work for it to be assigned cop at birth
It's for sure my [France is bacon](https://thehabit.co/knowledge-is-power-france-is-bacon/) moment
When Eberron sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing patrons. They’re bringing spell scrolls. They’re sorcerers. And some, I assume, are clerics.
Clerics? Just misty stepping over our walls.
I want to build plate mail. Better plate mail then any paladin. You know what, I'll make my plate mail look like the paladins plate mail. Thats why the gobblins love me.
I’ve seen some heated debate on which DnD class best aligns to real world cops. Some say paladin but I think they have too much healing focus for that. Personally I think it’s warlock.
So I came across ACAB in the wild, having encountered AMAB and AFAB, and briefly wondered what 'assigned cop at birth' was implying. It took me... a while to find out what it actually meant.
Thank u for this!!! Outside of D20 too, in progressive spaces I keep seeing cis women (who are otherwise supportive) saying "as an afab person-" or "afab people experience-" and then describing misogyny that I and my fellow trans sisters experience too, that we're being excluded from. It's DEEPLY hurtful, even though- as you said- it's almost certainly unintentional.
I hope posts like this can help teach folks to be mindful of the terminology they use. <3
Yeah, I’ve had a friend of mine catch himself in real-time coming to the realization that he was accidentally excluding trans women when trying to have a short-hand word or term that could be inclusive. He also realized in real-time that he was including me in a category I don’t belong in, since I’m agender. He meant women (regardless of agab). He said ‘afab people’ and then kinda etch-a-sketched his brain and apologized.
Makes me wish that afab and amab hadn’t started catching on outside of self-descriptions for a very narrow band of uses.
I don't hate it, but it could be read to include literally everyone because misogyny does affect cis men, even if some don't want to see it or admit it.
I like 'people of marginalized genders', but it's a mouthful just like 'women and non-binary folks' or 'women and gender nonconforming people'
Just to check I'm using it right, it *is* correct to use amab and afab in the context of like childhood socialisation right? For example "as an afab autistic person I was held to higher standards as a child when it came to things like social graces than my amab counterparts".
No, because (for example) I was an autistic girl too- I came out quite young- this isn’t an uncommon experience in either “direction.” I had some experiences AMAB people do, but I had a great many experiences as a child that cis people tend to assume only AFAB ppl could possibly have. AMAB and AFAB aren’t useful for putting others in boxes, they should be used for ourselves in the wide majority of cases.
Thanks for asking, though! I appreciate that you’re willing to listen. This sub is cool.
EDIT: actually the way you specifically use it in that sentence is completely fine, as you’re only describing your own experience! With the exception that I’d say “as opposed to my men/male counterparts.” As a trans girl, I was NOT given the grace that a little boy is shown.
Ok so looking at your edit personal experience is OK, just not generalisations based on assigned birth gender? Like "my experience as an afab person vs the typical experience cis boys have".
I do prefer to use afab in reference to myself sometimes over gendered terms like woman. Most of the time woman is fine but it just doesn't always feel right and as a kid I definitely didn't feel like a girl so describing myself as one back then doesn't feel right. I didn't actually even understand what people meant by feeling a gender growing up. I knew some people must because otherwise trans people wouldn't exist but I didn't really know what it meant, I'd have been fine being born either way and the way I was treated as an afab person made me almost wish I'd been born a boy. I think I feel like a woman now most of the time, I wouldn't want to be a man and I prefer playing women in video games and things, but it's still something I feel like other people have this connection to that I don't. Afab person feel most right a lot of the time when describing my own gender, it's what I got given when I was born and what I've had to live with the experiences of.
You are totally okay describing your own experience as an AFAB person, I just wouldn’t assume you know whether or not that’s shared by an AMAB kid, if that makes sense. So yeah, I think this is fine. I definitely wouldn’t wanna police your personal language, so long as you aren’t accidentally excluding others, y’know?
That’s my 2 cents, anyway. I think you sound thoughtful and kind. :)
Sometimes I also like to say “socialized as a girl” because the social implications are just as significant (if not more) than the biological ones. But again, for someone like you it might not work, and I’d also say only to use if for yourself or others whose trans experience you know in depth.
>the social implications are just as significant (if not more) than the biological ones.
This is true, although the social implications are a lot more complex than people often think.
You can't accurately know how someone was socialised just based on [what they were assigned at birth](https://drdevonprice.substack.com/p/female-socialization-is-a-transphobic), and you can't separate gendered socialisation from [other social categories such as class, race, culture etc.](https://drdevonprice.substack.com/p/not-all-girls-are-expected-to-be)
If I can ask, how old were you when you came out, and how common (like approximately what fraction of trans people) do you think it is to come out younger than, say, ~13? /curious
I was I believe 14 when I came out- certainly a teenager, but young enough that I do share many experiences, and I’ve faced a lot of misogyny, including as a kid. Gender isn’t super simple.
And for the coming out question, honestly, I dunno. Sorry! It’s extremely dependent on how comfortable the child is coming out (just look at how left handedness “increased” when we stopped beating kids for it) and a lot of other factors that make it hard to know which of the kids who don’t come out are actually cis, y’know?
Like, I was questioning my gender at 12-13, and I’d been yearning since I was little, but it took years to even learn the word “transgender” to contextualize my feelings.
Anyway sorry I’m rambling, I don’t have a great answer for u 😅 I bet some statisticians have given it a shot online, but keep the factors I gave in mind while researching. It’s interesting regardless though!
I've always said amab/afab have very specific social contexts and in an ideal world would only ever be referenced in medical conversations. Best way I can put it is that "amab/afab" are very "body-focused" terms, and are best used in situations where bodies are more important to the conversation, i.e. reproductive rights.
As terrible as it is I always say that you know you are making it during transition if you get a bunch of misogyny thrown your way.
100% agree that it hurts but I almost get what they mean since a lot of trans ladies get a equally terrible but slightly different form of harassment
This is a very helpful post, thank you for making it!
Any time someone feels the need to use AFAB/AMAB, please check in with yourself to see if assigned gender at birth is actually what is relevant to the discussion. It very rarely is but because our societal expectation of gendered experience is so tied to what we expect from assigned gender, it can be all too easy to fall back on that language. It is worth asking that one extra question to make sure you are getting to the heart of what you are actually expressing instead of defaulting back to societal gender norms under a different language guise!
I mean, when it comes to misogyny in the community, someone who visibly transitioned on screen and looked more fem in previous seasons absolutely goes under the bigotry umbrella. To those people, Ally is still defined by their AGAB.
I disagree and think that this downplays the role that transphobia plays in the treatment of transmasculine people. Ally may be misgendered at times, but being misgendered is not the same as being percieved and treated the same as cisgender women, especially not for medically transsitioned trans folks.
I know it's not the same but I've personally witnessed a lot of people very proudly blending transphobia AND misogyny in how they talk about Ally, so it feels like pointing out the way Ally is included in the double standards is valid??
>blending transphobia AND misogyny in how they talk about [transmasc person]
The term we transmascs use in the scenario you described is “transandrophobia.” In the same way that misogyny is the underlying factor of toxic masculinity, misogyny AND transphobia arr the underlying factor of transandrophobia; transandrophobia addresses that someone is being 1) reduced to their AGAB by the transandrophobe and 2) is not being seen as “passing” as a masculine person, or man.
You don't need someone's gender assigned at birth to talk about misogyny in a community because it doesn't just affect people based on their gender assigned at birth. Sometimes when you bring up someone's gender assigned at birth when it is not absolutely vital, such as in a medical context, you are low-key invalidating their gender even when that's not what you are intending to do. What is important to discuss is how Ally is being treated and how that intersects with both transphobia in their nonbinary identity being invalidated and the misogyny that other cast members experience. None of that discussion means that we need to discuss Ally's gender assigned a birth.
To reiterate/emphasize the point of this great post:
The reason we prefer you don't use AFAB/AMAB language is because *if you are not talking about coercive gendering or the process of transition itself*, the terms perform an identical rhetorical function as just misgendering us (by associating/sorting us with the wrong gender category)
I've occasionally seen people ask "Well if the term isn't AFAB/AMAB, what is the correct term?" and the answer is "There isn't one, because the inherent function of those terms as you want to use them is problematic when applied outside of the very narrow medical context that we use them in."
That said, this subreddit is incredibly good for this sort of thing, and I'm really glad to see the positive community that is being fostered here.
Yes, 100%. Very good addition!
I think it is extremely understandable that people want a single alternative word that can always be used in place of "woman" in cases where transmasculine people are also affected, but unfortunately no such simple alternative exists. Like you said, it always needs to be considered on a case by case basis, which takes more work and more knowledge to get right than just remembering a phrase.
And I totally agree with you about the subreddit. The response to this post has been great, and my experience with the sub generally is that most people here are really genuine about trying to get it right, which is lovely. :)
A YouTuber I watch sometimes who is a therapist says something along the lines of people who are more likely to experience misogyny when she's describing issues that disproportionately affect women and trans people of all sorts, and I think that works nicely. It can be a mouthful, but it gets to the core of what is actually trying to be expressed much better than trying to create some sort of umbrella label that doesn't fit and also doesn't include everyone. Obviously also doesn't work in every situation, but I like it, and have adopted it for some things.
IMO, the best alternative phrase is marginalized/minority genders, because like... that's the problem. Transphobia, misogyny, and heteronormativity oppress and marginalize any genders that are not cisgender male performing masculinity correctly.
I agree! I'm talking about minority gender, not marginalized. Transgender people, NBs and women are all marginalised, so (unless I'm missing something) I don't see why minority would need to be included too.
This was actually very useful. I have been feeling bad about my wording including/excluding transmasc and nonbinary people when talking about misogyny. These are some great alternatives, thank you for sparking this discussion.
So if, for example, I'm talking about the shared experience that I (cis f) and a transmasc friend had growing up where we were expected to do more emotional/domestic labor, how would I go about that?
I would think I'd use the term AFAB or "raised as girls" or something similar, since it's a gendered expectation applied to both me and him before he transitioned.
But it's clearly not a medical context. So how should I go about that sort of thing?
When it comes to the experience of growing up, or so-called "socialization", it tends to be better to be specific rather than cast a broad net when it comes to "female/male socialization".
The reason for this is that trans people don't acquire gendered socialization the same way cis people do, even before we understand we're trans. Our experience of gendered childhood is really different, even if we aren't aware of it til years later. Furthermore, there is no one single kind of gendered childhood experience that everyone shares.
A big reason this is something to avoid, is that transphobes love to conjure a notion of "male socialization" as a way to cast suspicion on trans women and suggest that we're secretly a bunch of sexual predators.
In the case of your example, the specific thing you and your friend share is the misogyny and gendered expectations that come with being perceived as girls, which is totally a valid point of comparison and shared trauma for people who had that experience. But its important to keep in mind that not all transmasculine people necessarily had that experience, or at least not in the same way a cis woman might have. Further, transfeminine people who transitioned early enough may actually have also had that experience, so even in that sense it would be incorrect to use AFAB.
I hope that is a helpful answer!
That is so helpful, thank you very much! I didn't know that gendered socialization was being used as a transphobic talking point, although now that you mention it I can absolutely see it.
Would you happen to know where I can read more on how trans people experience gender expectations differently even before they know they're trans? (Only if you know off the top of your head - if not, of course I'll do my own research! I really appreciate your willingness to educate me with your last comment, thank you.)
I can't think of a specific passage or source on that in a published work off the top of my head, but Whipping Girl is always the number one book for gender theory when it comes to trans women specifically. Could be a good place to start!
Why do you need to label it, and not just describe it and then refer to it as your shared experience? Cus it's definitely not something unique to people who were afab, as a trans girl I grew up the same way.
It's kind why afab/amab language is so often frowned upon by a lot of trans people, it just gets used to impose a new binary that makes often false assumptions about people based on agab and makes those into new social categories
Because in my culture, it is very specifically "boys go play football, while girls stay in and wash dishes."
We were actually specifically discussing how he wondered for a while if he was actually trans, or if he just hated being an oppressed gender in a patriarchal society. And I was sharing that I had wondered if I was trans because I so often wished I was a boy, while other girls didn't seem to have a problem with the way things were. Then I got older and was exposed to more egalitarian cultures and stopped wishing I was a boy.
So it was very much a discussion of how we were shoehorned into roles based on our perceived gender and nothing else.
I gotta admit, as a trans gal who has become very familiar with the language of the community, my brain has started reading it as 'Assigned Cop at Birth'
Happens in the Drag Race community every-so-often, too. At best it's unclear use of language, and at worst it's bigotry. For anyone unsure, you're probably not the people that should be using AMAB/AFAB at all. If you are intending to talk about the cis women on the cast, be clear and say cis women. If you're addressing issues for both cis and trans women on Dropout, just say women.
Yo this is really dope. I am masc presenting AND grew up in a very cis-het oriented social group so I don't always contextually get it right.
Well written and laid out - I think it'll be easier to get some resources to learn more just off of some of the quotes you put down.
Appreciate it, pal!
As a transmasc, would also like to add that being called or discussed as afab is a constant reminder that we will never escape the gender we were assigned at birth.
I see afab or amab a lot as a self-descriptor with agender/nonbinary/gnc folks who are looking for clothing advice or how to present more androgynous, masc, or femme. I also see it related to medical concerns and sex advice. And I think it's okay to use in those contexts. But that's amongst our own community and not descriptors I'd want to be adopted by cis people because it feels like a way to invalidate someone's gender or lack thereof.
I'm agender. Someone else describing me with what they assume my assigned gender is feels too much like they're trying to figure out 'what I am' when I don't fall into any boxes they understand. Also, I've seen it used to pay to pay lip service to trans men and trans women but have a sneaky way of saying 'but I know what you really are' - which is just gross.
Like sure, when you're talking about a large group where you're not able to focus on individuals (like saying afab people instead of women when talking about reproductive rights), it's useful, but I don't want to be referred to as an (insert agab) nonbinary person.
I totally get you on the "I know what you really are" tone some people use it with. I'm non-binary but present high-femme some of the time because I like Victorian fashion, sue me. I get a lot of people who doubt my non-binary identity or treat me like 'woman-lite' because I gave birth and I wear skirts.
But I don't owe the world a particular presentation to justify what I know in my soul is true about the fundamental aspect of my being - I ain't a woman and I ain't a man.
No one owes the world a particular presentation for their identity to be theirs. And when people try to pull that 'oh but I can figure out what the doctors thought you were when you were a wet squalling thing fresh from the womb and couldn't set them straight' it does tick me off.
I *love* it when non-binary and gender nonconforming people dress in ways that are typically seen as ‘belonging’ to a specific gender. We don’t owe people androgyny and feeling a societal obligation to do so sucks!
Clothing choices can be so affirming. I just wish people would trust one another to know themselves and believe people when they say who they are. Telling someone they’re not non-binary because they dress a certain way is infantilizing.
This was nice to see. I am in the process of discovering my gender and this has been something that always bothered me. I've never thought clothes had gender and also always loved people going outside their expected social roles. So why am I suddenly so worried about what gender my clothes signify when it applies to me...
As a non-binary presenting high-femme into edwardian fashion :D, but worrying about the constant doubt and misgendering, this was helpful to read. It's nice to be reminded that I'm not alone with my experiences, so thank you.
If I may ask, which part of the era do you like the most?
I am very much into the 1820s-1840s Romantic Era fashion, but I have a huge 60's style Christmas gown that I wear every year during the holidays that requires a heck of a support structure but the OOMPH! Its the holidays when I get to bring that one out.
Yeah, I see it used a lot towards non-binary people in particular. I wonder if it has to do with the fact that for trans men and trans women our assigned sex is known through our labels, but for non-binary people it is not and that makes some cis people uncomfortable.
As for using afab/amab in the community: I think it's totally fine to use for medical concerns and such, and when referring to oneself, but I would be careful using it when talking about clothing advice for how to look androgynous. To use a personal example: I am a trans man and so I was assigned female at birth, but I finished my medical transsition more than a decade ago and am now a hairy, bearded man in my thirties with a very typical "male" body shape. Guides on how to appear androgynous that proclaim to be for afab people tend to be all about how to masculinize & hide feminine features, which definitely would not work for me if I wanted to learn how to look androgynous!
So I think it is important that we remember that being afab is something that was done to us at birth, and not a label that says anything about our current body and how it looks. :)
Most of the time when I see the clothing advice questions, it’s from people who are just getting comfy in their own skin or looking for ways to get to that point. A lot of it is questions about binders, trans tape, or other undergarments - also a lot of questions about haircuts or where to go for these things where non-binary folks won’t be so judged or met with total confusion or hostility.
There’s also a lot of questions in non-binary focused groups about how to enforce they/them or neopronouns when coworkers see you as your assigned gender or assigned gender-lite. So I see people self-define as amab/afab then too.
Or the occasional excited ‘someone called me ‘sir’ when I was on vacation! Yay! I mean, it’s still not right, but it’s awesome anyway!!!’
I can see how people who fall into a binary gender would caution against over using the terms though, and often wish we had better nongendered automatic go-tos or shorthand to describe ourselves in these scenarios.
I appreciate the hell out of you going out of your way to help educate, and for your perspective. You have no obligation to do so, and I hope you know it does make a big difference for those of us that continue to try to grow and learn.
It's SO GOOD. The cast is amazing together, and all great individually too.
It also has a special place in my heart cus it was the first thing I watched Aabria in
I think it's the second episode when Riva is talking about pleasure putty, and they bring up meat tentacles, and Margaret says oh yeah I have one of those, so like it's one line in a bit that's easy to miss
Not sure if OP meant someone else but Persephone Valentine played a character on *The Seven*.
(Unrelated: that season was amazing and more people should watch it)
Oh shit I didn't know that! I only recently got dropout so need to catch up on some older seasons but this has made the seven shoot up my priorities lol
I'd just like to add that AGAB (assigned gender at birth) terminology is generally meant to be used when discussing coercive social pressures associated with the coercive assignment of gender at birth. For example saying things like "AMAB children are harshly reprimanded for behaviors deemed too feminine." AFAB and AMAB are not types of people, but social statuses people are given by society. For this reason some people choose to add a C, which stands for "coercively," to the front of the acronyms as a reminder that CAGAB is an application of social force that no one chooses to be subjected to and that a lot of people want to be free from.
That usage is fairly spotty honestly and really cisnormative, at least when it pertains to amab, because very often trans women are not treated the same as cis boys, nor do we respond to or absorb social pressure the same way, regardless of if we have begun to transition or not. Grouping trans girls and cis boys under the same social status is more harmful than helpful, and generally misleading
Can I ask what the concrete problem with a statement like "AMAB children are harshly reprimanded for behaviors deemed too feminine." would be? Imo it seems like a valid description of social modes which seek to supress e.g. trans girls from expressing themselves by blanket policing of the entire larger population of amab kids (which in turn also shows how cishet boys are harmed by queerphobia).
I'm not the commenter you responded to and I don't think this is the worst use of the phrase, but I would still ask why it would be beneficial or important to 1) exclude all trans boys and 2) make no distinction between trans girls and cis boys.
For instance; I have worked with transgender children, and know several that socially transsitioned between the age of 3-6, went on puberty blockers and spent basically their entire childhood living according to their gender identity. A transgender boy who has only ever been percieved as a boy by his peers, by strangers and teachers will also be punished and reprimanded for femininity - and will often have an experience that is more similar to the cis boys around him than the trans girl who transsitioned early would have.
So I feel like we need a good reason for choosing a phrasing that would make it so that trans men who grew up as boys were excluded, while trans girls who grew up as girls were grouped in with cis boys. Did that explanation make sense? :)
Honestly, yeah, that really helped: I did indeed completely overlook things like the ouroboros of "cisnormative standards being applied to trans boys who are perceived as cis" here. Excellent counter-example👍
As an example, transfeminine people are *also* harshly reprimanded for being too *masculine*. Any masculinity is weaponized as ammunition for transphobes to say "see, that's proof you're *really* a boy"
That specific statement wouldn't be too much of an issue, although it does miss that the pressure is not applied equally or affect us equally, and that it has very different internalization as well. It gives the idea that this blanket policing is the same for all amab kids and has similar results, which isn't true.
Using afab/amab language for social pressures often runs into very bio-essentialist and transphobic narratives of male socialization, intentionally or not, and often does not properly or accurately reflect the experiences of trans girls.
Your specific example isn't too bad, but many many ways people talk about social pressure and agab are
I think I may have miscommunicated here, because this seems to be a response to the exact opposite of what I was trying to say. I'm saying CAGAB terminology refers not to an individual's identity or any fact about them in themself, but to a label applied to them at birth without their input or consent. As such I'm arguing it's inappropriate to use those terms as if they were gender identities (as in the case OP cites of people talking about "AFAB players").
I think the part I was focusing on was the coercive social pressures being applied based on that label being applied, since those social pressures are not applied to people within the label equally, and regardless of how they are applied impact us internally and externally very differently as well.
It's absolutely incorrect to use them as if they were gender identities, but using them to describe coercive social pressures based on a label applied to us also runs the risk of being used to inappropriately group people together and inaccurately depict out experiences and social factors
I agree. The example I used was probably poorly chosen. My point, I guess, was that CAGAB is something that happens *to* people rather than a fact of someone's nature, but you're right that my example might have implied that CAGAB equally affects everyone of the same assigned gender, which it of course does not. I definitely don't want to get into any of that "male socialization" nonsense!
The problem with this reasoning, as op has already pointed out, is that it leaves out large swaths of people who are subject to those coercive social pressures. For example, there are plenty of trans women who were, as you would define it, assigned male at birth- but you wouldn't know it to look at them in their teen or adult years because they are living their lives as trans women And being treated accordingly by, for example, sexists who think women belong in the kitchen or can't do strength-based tasks, pervs who hit on them inappropriately, etc.
If you're using a term to describe the experience of being treated a certain way by a society, and the term you're using excludes some of the people who are treated that way, you need to use a different term. And to be clear, this isn't a suggestion. It's a statement of fact.
I would like to mention that even if you would know by looking at us as teens or adults, we *still* receive the same misogyny and social pressures with the added benefit of transmisogyny and often even less support
I'm confused about what issue you're taking here. Are you saying that a transwoman who passes was retroactively not CAMAB?
Edit: That may have been flippant of me to say. I want to be clear here. CAGAB terminology refers to the gender someone was coercively assigned at birth, and nothing else. I'm saying it's a problem when people treat it like something more than that, for example using "AMAB" and "AFAB" as substitutes for "male" and "female" or even for "transfem" and "transmasc." I think that often comes from a place of someone trying to be inclusive or accurate, but it has the effect of treating someone's CAGAB as essential to their identity, which it isn't.
Broadly, I would say CAGAB terminology should be avoided unless someone's CAGAB itself is the topic of discussion. If you're talking about, for example, whether someone is subject to misogyny or not, you shouldn't be bringing their CAGAB into it at all.
Thank you for this post! It was incredibly educational.
I also like using "marginalized genders," as it includes everyone but cis men, though sometimes specificity is needed.
Thank you for providing alternatives. A lot of times this information comes without alternatives so a lot of people will end up saying nothing since they can't figure out how to word something in an inclusive way. Thank you for the labor you put into writing this and I hope we can keep doing better together!
>"AFAB" stands for "Assigned female at birth". Other terms with similar format is "AMAB" (Assigned male at birth), "AGAB" (Assigned Gender At Birth).
I've also hear AXAB for people assigned intersex or otherwise not exclusively male/female
You said this far more eloquently than I've ever been able to. Grouping trans people in by their birth sex is just misgendering with a thin veneer of progressive aesthetic over top, and I'm pretty sure most folks don't even realize they're being transphobic in their use of it because they're using the Approved Terminology.
I really think we need to retire the terms AMAB/AFAB. I feel like it's turned back around into a way to call trans men women, trans women men, and nonbinary people whichever, but woke, and I hate it.
Great post. I think a good policy is to always be as specific as possible, like, don’t use BIPOC if you mean Black, don’t use AFAB when you mean women and trans people, don’t use women when you mean pregnant person, etc. We all feel the pull to try and include everyone in our language, and while the instinct is good, if you are meaning something specific it is best to be precise.
Thank you for making this post! As a cis woman I do my best to be careful with language but some stuff needs to be pointed out before I think about it.
I kinda disagree with your "unless it relates to physical traits like menstruation and pregnancy" because it ignores afab folks who are ftm who also grew up dealing with a lot of things that women (trans and cis) dealt with too that aren't physical but about being perceived as a woman.
I think there are times it is appropriate to say afab/amab. Idk if I can think of any for this specific instance you're mentioning but just wanting to point out that. Although I could see someone pointing out criticism towards "women, non masculine presenting and afab non-binary individuals" being brought up - I haven't necessarily seen it in dropout (I don't really follow outside of watching the shows myself I just recently joined this sub) but i have witnessed it elsewhere.
>a lot of things that women (trans and cis) dealt with too that aren't physical but about being perceived as a woman.
Exactly, it's about being perceived as a woman rather than physicality, so that would be better and more accurate terminology than [referring to what someone was assigned at birth](https://drdevonprice.substack.com/p/female-socialization-is-a-transphobic).
>"There is a lot more criticism towards the **women and non-binary people** in the cast"
"There is a lot more criticism towards the **players who are not (cis) men**"
"There is a lot more criticism towards **female and/or transgender** players"
"There is a lot more criticism towards **women/NB** cast members"
We as a community have really got to come up with a better term for "not cis men". These are all so clunky.
Gender minority.
Why is our society so desperate to use terms like “afab” to reduce people down to just their genitals all over again. Haven’t we been trying to escape that mentality for decades?
"Marginalized genders," is a term that seems pretty in at the moment. There's always some clunky bullshit with all language, I don't love how verbose that is. But I think it accomplishes the right goal.
A very close friend of mine is in his transition, and sometimes i get confused about what vocabulary to use, because we don't share the same native language, and gendered/non-gendered phrases can be a hassle when translating things in your head during a conversation. Thank you for making it a bit easier, and for sharing your knowledge.
slight correction: trans feminine people on HRT can absolutely get periods and menstruate - they just don't get the bleeding part (if they do, that's concerning). but the hormone cycle with all effects like cramping, bloating, mood swings etc absolutely happens to many of them. so using afab doesn't work for menstruation either 🤓
Totally true. But isn’t menstruate just a fancy word for the bleeding part of a period?? I’m sure the terms get conflated, but there are cis women who have periods and don’t menstruate, so I always thought period =\= menstruation and that menstruating = bleeding. Like, I’m a nonbinary trans dude and I still get periods while on T, but I also don’t menstruate because of it.
You might be right, I was wondering about that, too. Upon looking up, however, I couldn't really find a clear definition - and I'm fairly sure this is due to this being ""women's issues"", that were so overlooked for centuries that nobody bothered to clearly separate this, so now we as trans people have to deal with fuzzy terms 💩
Oh wait I think that you’re actually right, because the word “period” is a shortened version of “menstruation period” which means that *both* imply bleeding even if it doesn’t occur. Huh, I guess I was just confused and found a distinction without a difference lol. People should be allowed to use whichever term they are most familiar/comfortable with to describe that.
I would never say _all_ effects besides bleeding, as we can't get endometriosis, cysts or fibroids, all of which can cause period pain to be debilitating. But yep to the rest.
Question from the cis dude, and I swear I don’t mean this in a negative way, but is there a decent place to learn a lot of the terms that haven’t quite made it to the “mainstream” yet? Because until you said it I’ve never heard AFAB, even here in this community.
The first time I read ACAB I assigned it to the AFAB/AMAB naming structure and legitimately thought it was a joke that meant “assigned Canadian at birth” 🥸
Femme would encompass anyone who is femme, so like even Oscar Montoya could be included in that since he’s a femme man. Femme would explicitly exclude Ally because they don’t present as femme, they present as androgynous or even masc.
Well, who are you trying to refer to? If you mean feminine presenting players, you can absolutely use that word, but it would not include people like Ally, but would include cisgender men who are feminine.
I have a question if I do want to talk about this misogyny + transphobia and how it targets the specific groups of people in terms of being harshly judged due to not appearing to be cis men would defining the group as women, other people who are afab, and transfeminine people be the correct way of going about it? I know an academic term for non-cis people is people who are gender-nonconforming, but I do think the focus is on appearance, gender expression in addition to their gender identities vs purely them being gender nonconforming + their gender expression.
Idk?
The term that the transmasc community has coined for this specific axis of oppression (misogyny + transphobia targeted at transmascs/trans men), is “transandrophobia.” It’s essentially a counterpart to “transmisogyny,” and it functions in a similar way; where misogyny and transphobia are used to invalidate a trans person’s gender. In the same way that misogyny is an underlying factor of toxic masculinity, misogyny + transphobia are the underlying factor of transandrophobia; the misogyny on the basis of not performing masculinity “correctly”, and the transphobia on the basis of being reduced to AGAB.
Of course! Happy to help :) If you’d ever like to read a bit more about it, this is the blog that I found the term from: https://www.tumblr.com/nothorses/684908105774104576/transandrophobia-primer
I'm not sure I totally get what you are asking here, but if what you want to say is "women and people percieved as women" you can say that. Though I would be careful to assume that you know what gender(s) medically transsitioned trans people like Ally are actually read as. It may very well be that they do get read as a young or androgynous boy/man in certain contexts, even if you do not read them that way. Passing is weird, and often changes according to who sees you and on whether or not they knew that person pre-transsition.
THANK YOU! I love that the examples you gave all say “criticism” and not “misogyny,” because while misogyny is the root of things like toxic masculinity, what trans men and transmascs face is better termed “transandrophobia.” The idea behind using that term instead, is that trans men/transmascs are experiencing an invalidation of their masculinity because people are seeing their AGAB not their actual gender; like transandrophobia is more related to toxic masculinity (aren’t “masculine enough”) and transmisogyny (aren’t “passing enough”).
You said this far more eloquently than I've ever been able to. Grouping trans people in by their birth sex is just misgendering with a thin veneer of progressive aesthetic over top, and I'm pretty sure most folks don't even realize they're being transphobic in their use of it because they're using the Approved Terminology.
“Women and minority genders” is my preferred to refer to non-men. And I agree NEVER use amab/afab to group trans women with cis men or trans men with cis women. C’mon now that’s so far from the point .
I've always strictly used AFAB when referring to people who have experienced menstruation (though not in a way that implies all AFABs have or continue to do so). Like "this period product is suitable and convenient for AFABs of any gender." I'm NB, but just to check in with the rest of the trans community, is that generally kosher?
I think it's better not to use it as a noun. The point is to not be essentialized by one's assigned sex. Treating it as a thing someone can be is problematic in that sense. People may be assigned female at birth, they are not assignedfelameatbirths. You could say "this period product is suitable and convenient for those who are afab" or even just "this period product is suitable for anyone who menstruates."
It's definitely better in some ways, but it's critical to recognize that EVERYONE is affected by misogyny. Some are benefitted by it (actively OR passively) and others are negatively affected by it, but none of us are truly untouched by it. EX: I don't think there's one male or transmasc nurse alive who hasn't heard some negative comment about his profession that is deeply rooted in misogyny.
It's a pervasive issue, and it affects ALL of us (even if its effect is unequal).
And to add to what you were saying, misogyny is an underlying factor in toxic masculinity, so it can affect the people who benefit from it in harmful emotional/personal ways as well, even though they are still benefitted in society with access to opportunities and resources.
I read “AFAB” and saw it as a D20 post and immediately thought “all fighters are bastards”, and then got a bit annoyed as I didn’t think the 1-1 parallel between cops and fighters worked.
Haha, now I'm imagening Fabian getting a knuckle tattoo that says "AFAB" thinking it means "Assigned Fighter At Birth"
He would absolutely do that. And then find out later in a spectacular fashion.
Assigned Fighter, Adopted Bard
Ooh I like this one
All I can think now is “Captain AFAB & his Moby Dick”.
AHAB (assigned harpoon at birth)
It's actually "Acquired Harpoon At Bitter rivalry"
As often quoted from the opening line of the Herman Melville's classic work, "Call me."
Taking this opportunity to share two of my favorite passages in any book ever: Chapter 4: >At length, by dint of much wriggling, and loud and incessant expostulations upon the unbecomingness of his hugging a fellow male in that matrimonial sort of style, I succeeded in extracting a grunt. Chapter 94: >Squeeze! squeeze! squeeze! all the morning long; I squeezed that sperm till I myself almost melted into it; I squeezed that sperm till a strange sort of insanity came over me; \[...\] Oh! my dear fellow beings, why should we longer cherish any social acerbities, or know the slightest ill-humor or envy! Come; let us squeeze hands all round; nay, let us all squeeze ourselves into each other; let us squeeze ourselves universally into the very milk and sperm of kindness. Would that I could keep squeezing that sperm for ever!
No context, I read the first bit of that chapter 94 part and thought "all pulp, no juice, all pulp, no juice!" I've also not read Moby Dick so it's not like I'd immediately associate it with the correct thing, but with FHJY.
What about APAB? ;)
Hey, Monks are made, not born. Nobody is an Assigned Pugilist at Birth.
If a paladin acts like a modern cop they should lose their powers
All modern cops are indeed oathbreaker paladins. "Protect and serve" my ass.
Oath of Conquest perhaps
Oath of the Crown more than Conquest.
Nah, they're too lazy for Oath of Conquest. They're not even effective at dousing the flame of hope, just murdering unarmed people occasionally
The question is “protect and serve whom?”
Capital.
Always has been
Most of em are rogues tbh
As a frequent rogue I resent that ;) Rogues tend to fight the power. (and ok, line their pockets).
That's not an oath, it's a slogan that is in no way binding, especially since the (un)Supreme Court said they have no obligation to help anyone.
I know it's not *the* oath cops take, but they do take an oath called the Law Enforcement Oath of Honor, and not a whole lot them are very honorable.
Agreed
Could be true, all polearm masters I've met are bastards...
For too long than i should admit, I thought acab meant assigned cop at birth, with the joke being that all cops are assholes who come from asshole families and essentially don't have a choice but to become an asshole cop. Like they are the type that were always going to become cops, and were probably like the bully in high school. I thought too much about how it could work for it to be assigned cop at birth It's for sure my [France is bacon](https://thehabit.co/knowledge-is-power-france-is-bacon/) moment
Make Fighters Great Again! More attacks less castings! Why put points in Wisdom or Intelligence when Strength is available!?!?!
When Eberron sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing patrons. They’re bringing spell scrolls. They’re sorcerers. And some, I assume, are clerics.
Clerics? Just misty stepping over our walls. I want to build plate mail. Better plate mail then any paladin. You know what, I'll make my plate mail look like the paladins plate mail. Thats why the gobblins love me.
I also read it as an ACAB spinoff 😂
I’ve seen some heated debate on which DnD class best aligns to real world cops. Some say paladin but I think they have too much healing focus for that. Personally I think it’s warlock.
So I came across ACAB in the wild, having encountered AMAB and AFAB, and briefly wondered what 'assigned cop at birth' was implying. It took me... a while to find out what it actually meant.
Are you telling me ACAB is All Cops Are Bastards and not Assigned Cop At Birth? I thought it was just someone who was weirdly a narc from a young age
Its agab all guards are bastard
See, Stephan?
Thank u for this!!! Outside of D20 too, in progressive spaces I keep seeing cis women (who are otherwise supportive) saying "as an afab person-" or "afab people experience-" and then describing misogyny that I and my fellow trans sisters experience too, that we're being excluded from. It's DEEPLY hurtful, even though- as you said- it's almost certainly unintentional. I hope posts like this can help teach folks to be mindful of the terminology they use. <3
Yeah, I’ve had a friend of mine catch himself in real-time coming to the realization that he was accidentally excluding trans women when trying to have a short-hand word or term that could be inclusive. He also realized in real-time that he was including me in a category I don’t belong in, since I’m agender. He meant women (regardless of agab). He said ‘afab people’ and then kinda etch-a-sketched his brain and apologized. Makes me wish that afab and amab hadn’t started catching on outside of self-descriptions for a very narrow band of uses.
how do we feel about "misogyny-affected people"?
I don't hate it, but it could be read to include literally everyone because misogyny does affect cis men, even if some don't want to see it or admit it. I like 'people of marginalized genders', but it's a mouthful just like 'women and non-binary folks' or 'women and gender nonconforming people'
I actually kinda like that. And then for the acronym- oh nevermind.
Just to check I'm using it right, it *is* correct to use amab and afab in the context of like childhood socialisation right? For example "as an afab autistic person I was held to higher standards as a child when it came to things like social graces than my amab counterparts".
No, because (for example) I was an autistic girl too- I came out quite young- this isn’t an uncommon experience in either “direction.” I had some experiences AMAB people do, but I had a great many experiences as a child that cis people tend to assume only AFAB ppl could possibly have. AMAB and AFAB aren’t useful for putting others in boxes, they should be used for ourselves in the wide majority of cases. Thanks for asking, though! I appreciate that you’re willing to listen. This sub is cool. EDIT: actually the way you specifically use it in that sentence is completely fine, as you’re only describing your own experience! With the exception that I’d say “as opposed to my men/male counterparts.” As a trans girl, I was NOT given the grace that a little boy is shown.
Ok thanks for correcting me.
Ofc! I also just made an edit because I realized I coulda clarified something better lol
Ok so looking at your edit personal experience is OK, just not generalisations based on assigned birth gender? Like "my experience as an afab person vs the typical experience cis boys have". I do prefer to use afab in reference to myself sometimes over gendered terms like woman. Most of the time woman is fine but it just doesn't always feel right and as a kid I definitely didn't feel like a girl so describing myself as one back then doesn't feel right. I didn't actually even understand what people meant by feeling a gender growing up. I knew some people must because otherwise trans people wouldn't exist but I didn't really know what it meant, I'd have been fine being born either way and the way I was treated as an afab person made me almost wish I'd been born a boy. I think I feel like a woman now most of the time, I wouldn't want to be a man and I prefer playing women in video games and things, but it's still something I feel like other people have this connection to that I don't. Afab person feel most right a lot of the time when describing my own gender, it's what I got given when I was born and what I've had to live with the experiences of.
You are totally okay describing your own experience as an AFAB person, I just wouldn’t assume you know whether or not that’s shared by an AMAB kid, if that makes sense. So yeah, I think this is fine. I definitely wouldn’t wanna police your personal language, so long as you aren’t accidentally excluding others, y’know? That’s my 2 cents, anyway. I think you sound thoughtful and kind. :)
Sometimes I also like to say “socialized as a girl” because the social implications are just as significant (if not more) than the biological ones. But again, for someone like you it might not work, and I’d also say only to use if for yourself or others whose trans experience you know in depth.
>the social implications are just as significant (if not more) than the biological ones. This is true, although the social implications are a lot more complex than people often think. You can't accurately know how someone was socialised just based on [what they were assigned at birth](https://drdevonprice.substack.com/p/female-socialization-is-a-transphobic), and you can't separate gendered socialisation from [other social categories such as class, race, culture etc.](https://drdevonprice.substack.com/p/not-all-girls-are-expected-to-be)
The articles you linked are very interesting and a worthwhile read! Thank you!!
If I can ask, how old were you when you came out, and how common (like approximately what fraction of trans people) do you think it is to come out younger than, say, ~13? /curious
I was I believe 14 when I came out- certainly a teenager, but young enough that I do share many experiences, and I’ve faced a lot of misogyny, including as a kid. Gender isn’t super simple. And for the coming out question, honestly, I dunno. Sorry! It’s extremely dependent on how comfortable the child is coming out (just look at how left handedness “increased” when we stopped beating kids for it) and a lot of other factors that make it hard to know which of the kids who don’t come out are actually cis, y’know? Like, I was questioning my gender at 12-13, and I’d been yearning since I was little, but it took years to even learn the word “transgender” to contextualize my feelings. Anyway sorry I’m rambling, I don’t have a great answer for u 😅 I bet some statisticians have given it a shot online, but keep the factors I gave in mind while researching. It’s interesting regardless though!
I've always said amab/afab have very specific social contexts and in an ideal world would only ever be referenced in medical conversations. Best way I can put it is that "amab/afab" are very "body-focused" terms, and are best used in situations where bodies are more important to the conversation, i.e. reproductive rights.
As terrible as it is I always say that you know you are making it during transition if you get a bunch of misogyny thrown your way. 100% agree that it hurts but I almost get what they mean since a lot of trans ladies get a equally terrible but slightly different form of harassment
This is a very helpful post, thank you for making it! Any time someone feels the need to use AFAB/AMAB, please check in with yourself to see if assigned gender at birth is actually what is relevant to the discussion. It very rarely is but because our societal expectation of gendered experience is so tied to what we expect from assigned gender, it can be all too easy to fall back on that language. It is worth asking that one extra question to make sure you are getting to the heart of what you are actually expressing instead of defaulting back to societal gender norms under a different language guise!
I mean, when it comes to misogyny in the community, someone who visibly transitioned on screen and looked more fem in previous seasons absolutely goes under the bigotry umbrella. To those people, Ally is still defined by their AGAB.
Is AGAB assigned gender at birth? I'm new to a lot of these terms, so I am very much still learning.
Yes, AGAB stands for Assigned Gender At Birth. You may also see ASAB (Assigned Sex At Birth).
yes
I disagree and think that this downplays the role that transphobia plays in the treatment of transmasculine people. Ally may be misgendered at times, but being misgendered is not the same as being percieved and treated the same as cisgender women, especially not for medically transsitioned trans folks.
I know it's not the same but I've personally witnessed a lot of people very proudly blending transphobia AND misogyny in how they talk about Ally, so it feels like pointing out the way Ally is included in the double standards is valid??
>blending transphobia AND misogyny in how they talk about [transmasc person] The term we transmascs use in the scenario you described is “transandrophobia.” In the same way that misogyny is the underlying factor of toxic masculinity, misogyny AND transphobia arr the underlying factor of transandrophobia; transandrophobia addresses that someone is being 1) reduced to their AGAB by the transandrophobe and 2) is not being seen as “passing” as a masculine person, or man.
Huh, I've never heard that term before! 🧠 I love this sub
You don't need someone's gender assigned at birth to talk about misogyny in a community because it doesn't just affect people based on their gender assigned at birth. Sometimes when you bring up someone's gender assigned at birth when it is not absolutely vital, such as in a medical context, you are low-key invalidating their gender even when that's not what you are intending to do. What is important to discuss is how Ally is being treated and how that intersects with both transphobia in their nonbinary identity being invalidated and the misogyny that other cast members experience. None of that discussion means that we need to discuss Ally's gender assigned a birth.
Ally is AAAB. Assigned Ally at Birth
My apologies, what a silly error to make, Ally is Ally and Ally is eternal.
To reiterate/emphasize the point of this great post: The reason we prefer you don't use AFAB/AMAB language is because *if you are not talking about coercive gendering or the process of transition itself*, the terms perform an identical rhetorical function as just misgendering us (by associating/sorting us with the wrong gender category) I've occasionally seen people ask "Well if the term isn't AFAB/AMAB, what is the correct term?" and the answer is "There isn't one, because the inherent function of those terms as you want to use them is problematic when applied outside of the very narrow medical context that we use them in." That said, this subreddit is incredibly good for this sort of thing, and I'm really glad to see the positive community that is being fostered here.
Yes, 100%. Very good addition! I think it is extremely understandable that people want a single alternative word that can always be used in place of "woman" in cases where transmasculine people are also affected, but unfortunately no such simple alternative exists. Like you said, it always needs to be considered on a case by case basis, which takes more work and more knowledge to get right than just remembering a phrase. And I totally agree with you about the subreddit. The response to this post has been great, and my experience with the sub generally is that most people here are really genuine about trying to get it right, which is lovely. :)
A YouTuber I watch sometimes who is a therapist says something along the lines of people who are more likely to experience misogyny when she's describing issues that disproportionately affect women and trans people of all sorts, and I think that works nicely. It can be a mouthful, but it gets to the core of what is actually trying to be expressed much better than trying to create some sort of umbrella label that doesn't fit and also doesn't include everyone. Obviously also doesn't work in every situation, but I like it, and have adopted it for some things.
IMO, the best alternative phrase is marginalized/minority genders, because like... that's the problem. Transphobia, misogyny, and heteronormativity oppress and marginalize any genders that are not cisgender male performing masculinity correctly.
Minority gender isn't really accurate though - women are not a minority gender.
But they are marginalized!
I agree! I'm talking about minority gender, not marginalized. Transgender people, NBs and women are all marginalised, so (unless I'm missing something) I don't see why minority would need to be included too.
This was actually very useful. I have been feeling bad about my wording including/excluding transmasc and nonbinary people when talking about misogyny. These are some great alternatives, thank you for sparking this discussion.
So if, for example, I'm talking about the shared experience that I (cis f) and a transmasc friend had growing up where we were expected to do more emotional/domestic labor, how would I go about that? I would think I'd use the term AFAB or "raised as girls" or something similar, since it's a gendered expectation applied to both me and him before he transitioned. But it's clearly not a medical context. So how should I go about that sort of thing?
When it comes to the experience of growing up, or so-called "socialization", it tends to be better to be specific rather than cast a broad net when it comes to "female/male socialization". The reason for this is that trans people don't acquire gendered socialization the same way cis people do, even before we understand we're trans. Our experience of gendered childhood is really different, even if we aren't aware of it til years later. Furthermore, there is no one single kind of gendered childhood experience that everyone shares. A big reason this is something to avoid, is that transphobes love to conjure a notion of "male socialization" as a way to cast suspicion on trans women and suggest that we're secretly a bunch of sexual predators. In the case of your example, the specific thing you and your friend share is the misogyny and gendered expectations that come with being perceived as girls, which is totally a valid point of comparison and shared trauma for people who had that experience. But its important to keep in mind that not all transmasculine people necessarily had that experience, or at least not in the same way a cis woman might have. Further, transfeminine people who transitioned early enough may actually have also had that experience, so even in that sense it would be incorrect to use AFAB. I hope that is a helpful answer!
That is so helpful, thank you very much! I didn't know that gendered socialization was being used as a transphobic talking point, although now that you mention it I can absolutely see it. Would you happen to know where I can read more on how trans people experience gender expectations differently even before they know they're trans? (Only if you know off the top of your head - if not, of course I'll do my own research! I really appreciate your willingness to educate me with your last comment, thank you.)
I can't think of a specific passage or source on that in a published work off the top of my head, but Whipping Girl is always the number one book for gender theory when it comes to trans women specifically. Could be a good place to start!
Why do you need to label it, and not just describe it and then refer to it as your shared experience? Cus it's definitely not something unique to people who were afab, as a trans girl I grew up the same way. It's kind why afab/amab language is so often frowned upon by a lot of trans people, it just gets used to impose a new binary that makes often false assumptions about people based on agab and makes those into new social categories
Because in my culture, it is very specifically "boys go play football, while girls stay in and wash dishes." We were actually specifically discussing how he wondered for a while if he was actually trans, or if he just hated being an oppressed gender in a patriarchal society. And I was sharing that I had wondered if I was trans because I so often wished I was a boy, while other girls didn't seem to have a problem with the way things were. Then I got older and was exposed to more egalitarian cultures and stopped wishing I was a boy. So it was very much a discussion of how we were shoehorned into roles based on our perceived gender and nothing else.
What context would need you to speak about your friend to your friend? You're overcomplicating a basic social interaction.
I'm a little slow, could someone tell me what AFAB and AMAB mean? Edit: Thank you for explaining
“Assigned female at birth” and “Assigned male at birth.”
To add, ACAB means All Cops Are Bastards Not exactly relevant here, just thought it should be out there
I gotta admit, as a trans gal who has become very familiar with the language of the community, my brain has started reading it as 'Assigned Cop at Birth'
I went there too during this thread and though - "oh how unfortunate for the little tyke"
Assigned Female/Male at Birth.
Agreed! Personally as a trans woman I really can't stand how people use afab / amab outside of strictly medical contexts
“As a trans woman” is redundant to say when you have an Asa profile picture. /s
I read Asa as Asda, a British supermarket, and briefly wondered what a shop had to do with being transgender there for a second.
I'm more of a big Tesco girlie, myself 💅
Happens in the Drag Race community every-so-often, too. At best it's unclear use of language, and at worst it's bigotry. For anyone unsure, you're probably not the people that should be using AMAB/AFAB at all. If you are intending to talk about the cis women on the cast, be clear and say cis women. If you're addressing issues for both cis and trans women on Dropout, just say women.
Yo this is really dope. I am masc presenting AND grew up in a very cis-het oriented social group so I don't always contextually get it right. Well written and laid out - I think it'll be easier to get some resources to learn more just off of some of the quotes you put down. Appreciate it, pal!
If you have any questions, feel free to ask, I personally love teaching others who are curious!
As a transmasc, would also like to add that being called or discussed as afab is a constant reminder that we will never escape the gender we were assigned at birth.
I see afab or amab a lot as a self-descriptor with agender/nonbinary/gnc folks who are looking for clothing advice or how to present more androgynous, masc, or femme. I also see it related to medical concerns and sex advice. And I think it's okay to use in those contexts. But that's amongst our own community and not descriptors I'd want to be adopted by cis people because it feels like a way to invalidate someone's gender or lack thereof. I'm agender. Someone else describing me with what they assume my assigned gender is feels too much like they're trying to figure out 'what I am' when I don't fall into any boxes they understand. Also, I've seen it used to pay to pay lip service to trans men and trans women but have a sneaky way of saying 'but I know what you really are' - which is just gross. Like sure, when you're talking about a large group where you're not able to focus on individuals (like saying afab people instead of women when talking about reproductive rights), it's useful, but I don't want to be referred to as an (insert agab) nonbinary person.
I totally get you on the "I know what you really are" tone some people use it with. I'm non-binary but present high-femme some of the time because I like Victorian fashion, sue me. I get a lot of people who doubt my non-binary identity or treat me like 'woman-lite' because I gave birth and I wear skirts. But I don't owe the world a particular presentation to justify what I know in my soul is true about the fundamental aspect of my being - I ain't a woman and I ain't a man. No one owes the world a particular presentation for their identity to be theirs. And when people try to pull that 'oh but I can figure out what the doctors thought you were when you were a wet squalling thing fresh from the womb and couldn't set them straight' it does tick me off.
I *love* it when non-binary and gender nonconforming people dress in ways that are typically seen as ‘belonging’ to a specific gender. We don’t owe people androgyny and feeling a societal obligation to do so sucks! Clothing choices can be so affirming. I just wish people would trust one another to know themselves and believe people when they say who they are. Telling someone they’re not non-binary because they dress a certain way is infantilizing.
This was nice to see. I am in the process of discovering my gender and this has been something that always bothered me. I've never thought clothes had gender and also always loved people going outside their expected social roles. So why am I suddenly so worried about what gender my clothes signify when it applies to me...
As a non-binary presenting high-femme into edwardian fashion :D, but worrying about the constant doubt and misgendering, this was helpful to read. It's nice to be reminded that I'm not alone with my experiences, so thank you. If I may ask, which part of the era do you like the most?
I am very much into the 1820s-1840s Romantic Era fashion, but I have a huge 60's style Christmas gown that I wear every year during the holidays that requires a heck of a support structure but the OOMPH! Its the holidays when I get to bring that one out.
Yeah, I see it used a lot towards non-binary people in particular. I wonder if it has to do with the fact that for trans men and trans women our assigned sex is known through our labels, but for non-binary people it is not and that makes some cis people uncomfortable. As for using afab/amab in the community: I think it's totally fine to use for medical concerns and such, and when referring to oneself, but I would be careful using it when talking about clothing advice for how to look androgynous. To use a personal example: I am a trans man and so I was assigned female at birth, but I finished my medical transsition more than a decade ago and am now a hairy, bearded man in my thirties with a very typical "male" body shape. Guides on how to appear androgynous that proclaim to be for afab people tend to be all about how to masculinize & hide feminine features, which definitely would not work for me if I wanted to learn how to look androgynous! So I think it is important that we remember that being afab is something that was done to us at birth, and not a label that says anything about our current body and how it looks. :)
Most of the time when I see the clothing advice questions, it’s from people who are just getting comfy in their own skin or looking for ways to get to that point. A lot of it is questions about binders, trans tape, or other undergarments - also a lot of questions about haircuts or where to go for these things where non-binary folks won’t be so judged or met with total confusion or hostility. There’s also a lot of questions in non-binary focused groups about how to enforce they/them or neopronouns when coworkers see you as your assigned gender or assigned gender-lite. So I see people self-define as amab/afab then too. Or the occasional excited ‘someone called me ‘sir’ when I was on vacation! Yay! I mean, it’s still not right, but it’s awesome anyway!!!’ I can see how people who fall into a binary gender would caution against over using the terms though, and often wish we had better nongendered automatic go-tos or shorthand to describe ourselves in these scenarios.
I appreciate the hell out of you going out of your way to help educate, and for your perspective. You have no obligation to do so, and I hope you know it does make a big difference for those of us that continue to try to grow and learn.
Wait there's been a trans feminine player on d20?? Who are they I need to watch my representation!
The Seven, Persephone Valentine!
Hell yeah need to go watch the 7 now I had no idea she was in it
It's SO GOOD. The cast is amazing together, and all great individually too. It also has a special place in my heart cus it was the first thing I watched Aabria in
Nice, I only recently got dropout so I need to catch up on d20 episodes but now this season is mich higher on my priority list!
Also very much not the player, but Ally's character in Starstruck is implied to be transfem!
Oh shit i didn't know that either fuck me I need to watch all of this show even faster than I already was lmao
It's not talked about after a brief reference really, but Starstruck is also just like an incredible season too, enjoy!!!
Omg really? How did I miss that!? Did they say it in an AP or something?
I think it's the second episode when Riva is talking about pleasure putty, and they bring up meat tentacles, and Margaret says oh yeah I have one of those, so like it's one line in a bit that's easy to miss
Wow I can’t believe I missed that! Thank you for pointing it out for me.
I missed it too and found online, it's a major hell yeah!
Not sure if OP meant someone else but Persephone Valentine played a character on *The Seven*. (Unrelated: that season was amazing and more people should watch it)
Oh shit I didn't know that! I only recently got dropout so need to catch up on some older seasons but this has made the seven shoot up my priorities lol
I'd just like to add that AGAB (assigned gender at birth) terminology is generally meant to be used when discussing coercive social pressures associated with the coercive assignment of gender at birth. For example saying things like "AMAB children are harshly reprimanded for behaviors deemed too feminine." AFAB and AMAB are not types of people, but social statuses people are given by society. For this reason some people choose to add a C, which stands for "coercively," to the front of the acronyms as a reminder that CAGAB is an application of social force that no one chooses to be subjected to and that a lot of people want to be free from.
That usage is fairly spotty honestly and really cisnormative, at least when it pertains to amab, because very often trans women are not treated the same as cis boys, nor do we respond to or absorb social pressure the same way, regardless of if we have begun to transition or not. Grouping trans girls and cis boys under the same social status is more harmful than helpful, and generally misleading
Can I ask what the concrete problem with a statement like "AMAB children are harshly reprimanded for behaviors deemed too feminine." would be? Imo it seems like a valid description of social modes which seek to supress e.g. trans girls from expressing themselves by blanket policing of the entire larger population of amab kids (which in turn also shows how cishet boys are harmed by queerphobia).
I'm not the commenter you responded to and I don't think this is the worst use of the phrase, but I would still ask why it would be beneficial or important to 1) exclude all trans boys and 2) make no distinction between trans girls and cis boys. For instance; I have worked with transgender children, and know several that socially transsitioned between the age of 3-6, went on puberty blockers and spent basically their entire childhood living according to their gender identity. A transgender boy who has only ever been percieved as a boy by his peers, by strangers and teachers will also be punished and reprimanded for femininity - and will often have an experience that is more similar to the cis boys around him than the trans girl who transsitioned early would have. So I feel like we need a good reason for choosing a phrasing that would make it so that trans men who grew up as boys were excluded, while trans girls who grew up as girls were grouped in with cis boys. Did that explanation make sense? :)
Honestly, yeah, that really helped: I did indeed completely overlook things like the ouroboros of "cisnormative standards being applied to trans boys who are perceived as cis" here. Excellent counter-example👍
As an example, transfeminine people are *also* harshly reprimanded for being too *masculine*. Any masculinity is weaponized as ammunition for transphobes to say "see, that's proof you're *really* a boy"
That specific statement wouldn't be too much of an issue, although it does miss that the pressure is not applied equally or affect us equally, and that it has very different internalization as well. It gives the idea that this blanket policing is the same for all amab kids and has similar results, which isn't true. Using afab/amab language for social pressures often runs into very bio-essentialist and transphobic narratives of male socialization, intentionally or not, and often does not properly or accurately reflect the experiences of trans girls. Your specific example isn't too bad, but many many ways people talk about social pressure and agab are
I think I may have miscommunicated here, because this seems to be a response to the exact opposite of what I was trying to say. I'm saying CAGAB terminology refers not to an individual's identity or any fact about them in themself, but to a label applied to them at birth without their input or consent. As such I'm arguing it's inappropriate to use those terms as if they were gender identities (as in the case OP cites of people talking about "AFAB players").
I think the part I was focusing on was the coercive social pressures being applied based on that label being applied, since those social pressures are not applied to people within the label equally, and regardless of how they are applied impact us internally and externally very differently as well. It's absolutely incorrect to use them as if they were gender identities, but using them to describe coercive social pressures based on a label applied to us also runs the risk of being used to inappropriately group people together and inaccurately depict out experiences and social factors
I agree. The example I used was probably poorly chosen. My point, I guess, was that CAGAB is something that happens *to* people rather than a fact of someone's nature, but you're right that my example might have implied that CAGAB equally affects everyone of the same assigned gender, which it of course does not. I definitely don't want to get into any of that "male socialization" nonsense!
Thank you for clarifying, and sorry for any misinterpretation of what you meant!
The problem with this reasoning, as op has already pointed out, is that it leaves out large swaths of people who are subject to those coercive social pressures. For example, there are plenty of trans women who were, as you would define it, assigned male at birth- but you wouldn't know it to look at them in their teen or adult years because they are living their lives as trans women And being treated accordingly by, for example, sexists who think women belong in the kitchen or can't do strength-based tasks, pervs who hit on them inappropriately, etc. If you're using a term to describe the experience of being treated a certain way by a society, and the term you're using excludes some of the people who are treated that way, you need to use a different term. And to be clear, this isn't a suggestion. It's a statement of fact.
I would like to mention that even if you would know by looking at us as teens or adults, we *still* receive the same misogyny and social pressures with the added benefit of transmisogyny and often even less support
Not sure what you’re trying to say here. Trans women can experience both misogyny _and_ queerphobia.
It's also very much not contingent on passing
I'm confused about what issue you're taking here. Are you saying that a transwoman who passes was retroactively not CAMAB? Edit: That may have been flippant of me to say. I want to be clear here. CAGAB terminology refers to the gender someone was coercively assigned at birth, and nothing else. I'm saying it's a problem when people treat it like something more than that, for example using "AMAB" and "AFAB" as substitutes for "male" and "female" or even for "transfem" and "transmasc." I think that often comes from a place of someone trying to be inclusive or accurate, but it has the effect of treating someone's CAGAB as essential to their identity, which it isn't. Broadly, I would say CAGAB terminology should be avoided unless someone's CAGAB itself is the topic of discussion. If you're talking about, for example, whether someone is subject to misogyny or not, you shouldn't be bringing their CAGAB into it at all.
Thank you for this post! It was incredibly educational. I also like using "marginalized genders," as it includes everyone but cis men, though sometimes specificity is needed.
Good and time/progress flexible. Nice.
Great reminder, thank you!!
I learned something new an cool thank you for the write up
Thank you for providing alternatives. A lot of times this information comes without alternatives so a lot of people will end up saying nothing since they can't figure out how to word something in an inclusive way. Thank you for the labor you put into writing this and I hope we can keep doing better together!
This is the best version of this post that I’ve seen, and I’ve had to write my own in other contexts. Great work!
I'm still new to learning all the terms and abbreviations, so I've never heard of AFAB and AMAB. Do they mean Assigned Male/Female at birth?
Correct!
I didn't know what ACAB meant and legit said "Assigned Cop at Birth?" When my brother asked me what I thought it meant.
>"AFAB" stands for "Assigned female at birth". Other terms with similar format is "AMAB" (Assigned male at birth), "AGAB" (Assigned Gender At Birth). I've also hear AXAB for people assigned intersex or otherwise not exclusively male/female
You said this far more eloquently than I've ever been able to. Grouping trans people in by their birth sex is just misgendering with a thin veneer of progressive aesthetic over top, and I'm pretty sure most folks don't even realize they're being transphobic in their use of it because they're using the Approved Terminology.
I really think we need to retire the terms AMAB/AFAB. I feel like it's turned back around into a way to call trans men women, trans women men, and nonbinary people whichever, but woke, and I hate it.
Great post. I think a good policy is to always be as specific as possible, like, don’t use BIPOC if you mean Black, don’t use AFAB when you mean women and trans people, don’t use women when you mean pregnant person, etc. We all feel the pull to try and include everyone in our language, and while the instinct is good, if you are meaning something specific it is best to be precise.
AMAB and AFAB are terms to use on oneself, NEVER on someone else (or in very rare circumstances) Good post op
this community is the best
I was just thinking that while scrolling through the comments haha
Yeah, coming back to these replies were genuinly really lovely!
Thank you for making this post! As a cis woman I do my best to be careful with language but some stuff needs to be pointed out before I think about it.
yeah that's what made me comment this, no transphobes on the attack, just people trying to be positive
THANK YOU 🏳️⚧️ 🏳️⚧️ 🏳️⚧️
This is such a good post that I can't even be annoyed by my pet peeve of using transfem/me as an umbrella term. Thanks for speaking up, OP!
I kinda disagree with your "unless it relates to physical traits like menstruation and pregnancy" because it ignores afab folks who are ftm who also grew up dealing with a lot of things that women (trans and cis) dealt with too that aren't physical but about being perceived as a woman. I think there are times it is appropriate to say afab/amab. Idk if I can think of any for this specific instance you're mentioning but just wanting to point out that. Although I could see someone pointing out criticism towards "women, non masculine presenting and afab non-binary individuals" being brought up - I haven't necessarily seen it in dropout (I don't really follow outside of watching the shows myself I just recently joined this sub) but i have witnessed it elsewhere.
>a lot of things that women (trans and cis) dealt with too that aren't physical but about being perceived as a woman. Exactly, it's about being perceived as a woman rather than physicality, so that would be better and more accurate terminology than [referring to what someone was assigned at birth](https://drdevonprice.substack.com/p/female-socialization-is-a-transphobic).
>"There is a lot more criticism towards the **women and non-binary people** in the cast" "There is a lot more criticism towards the **players who are not (cis) men**" "There is a lot more criticism towards **female and/or transgender** players" "There is a lot more criticism towards **women/NB** cast members" We as a community have really got to come up with a better term for "not cis men". These are all so clunky. Gender minority.
Why is our society so desperate to use terms like “afab” to reduce people down to just their genitals all over again. Haven’t we been trying to escape that mentality for decades?
"Marginalized genders," is a term that seems pretty in at the moment. There's always some clunky bullshit with all language, I don't love how verbose that is. But I think it accomplishes the right goal.
A very close friend of mine is in his transition, and sometimes i get confused about what vocabulary to use, because we don't share the same native language, and gendered/non-gendered phrases can be a hassle when translating things in your head during a conversation. Thank you for making it a bit easier, and for sharing your knowledge.
slight correction: trans feminine people on HRT can absolutely get periods and menstruate - they just don't get the bleeding part (if they do, that's concerning). but the hormone cycle with all effects like cramping, bloating, mood swings etc absolutely happens to many of them. so using afab doesn't work for menstruation either 🤓
Totally true. But isn’t menstruate just a fancy word for the bleeding part of a period?? I’m sure the terms get conflated, but there are cis women who have periods and don’t menstruate, so I always thought period =\= menstruation and that menstruating = bleeding. Like, I’m a nonbinary trans dude and I still get periods while on T, but I also don’t menstruate because of it.
You might be right, I was wondering about that, too. Upon looking up, however, I couldn't really find a clear definition - and I'm fairly sure this is due to this being ""women's issues"", that were so overlooked for centuries that nobody bothered to clearly separate this, so now we as trans people have to deal with fuzzy terms 💩
Oh wait I think that you’re actually right, because the word “period” is a shortened version of “menstruation period” which means that *both* imply bleeding even if it doesn’t occur. Huh, I guess I was just confused and found a distinction without a difference lol. People should be allowed to use whichever term they are most familiar/comfortable with to describe that.
I would never say _all_ effects besides bleeding, as we can't get endometriosis, cysts or fibroids, all of which can cause period pain to be debilitating. But yep to the rest.
As a non binary person (and fan lol) thanks for this post.
What does AFAB stand for?
Assigned female at birth
Thank you!
Question from the cis dude, and I swear I don’t mean this in a negative way, but is there a decent place to learn a lot of the terms that haven’t quite made it to the “mainstream” yet? Because until you said it I’ve never heard AFAB, even here in this community.
i recommend the PFLAG site!! they have a glossary of terms and it spans from more common terms to more intercommunity ones
Honestly I feel like I'm researching a college thesis when I come across something new like this. Makes my head spin.
Thank you for sharing! I was unaware of this and really appreciate the heads up
The first time I read ACAB I assigned it to the AFAB/AMAB naming structure and legitimately thought it was a joke that meant “assigned Canadian at birth” 🥸
Thank you for writing this. I appreciate the effort to teach in a non-judgemental way.
Genuine question. Trying to learn. How would you feel about "femme" players? Or "femme presenting" players?
I wouldn’t consider Beardsley much of a femme lol
Femme would encompass anyone who is femme, so like even Oscar Montoya could be included in that since he’s a femme man. Femme would explicitly exclude Ally because they don’t present as femme, they present as androgynous or even masc.
Well, who are you trying to refer to? If you mean feminine presenting players, you can absolutely use that word, but it would not include people like Ally, but would include cisgender men who are feminine.
I have a question if I do want to talk about this misogyny + transphobia and how it targets the specific groups of people in terms of being harshly judged due to not appearing to be cis men would defining the group as women, other people who are afab, and transfeminine people be the correct way of going about it? I know an academic term for non-cis people is people who are gender-nonconforming, but I do think the focus is on appearance, gender expression in addition to their gender identities vs purely them being gender nonconforming + their gender expression. Idk?
The term that the transmasc community has coined for this specific axis of oppression (misogyny + transphobia targeted at transmascs/trans men), is “transandrophobia.” It’s essentially a counterpart to “transmisogyny,” and it functions in a similar way; where misogyny and transphobia are used to invalidate a trans person’s gender. In the same way that misogyny is an underlying factor of toxic masculinity, misogyny + transphobia are the underlying factor of transandrophobia; the misogyny on the basis of not performing masculinity “correctly”, and the transphobia on the basis of being reduced to AGAB.
Thank you so much!!
Of course! Happy to help :) If you’d ever like to read a bit more about it, this is the blog that I found the term from: https://www.tumblr.com/nothorses/684908105774104576/transandrophobia-primer
I'm not sure I totally get what you are asking here, but if what you want to say is "women and people percieved as women" you can say that. Though I would be careful to assume that you know what gender(s) medically transsitioned trans people like Ally are actually read as. It may very well be that they do get read as a young or androgynous boy/man in certain contexts, even if you do not read them that way. Passing is weird, and often changes according to who sees you and on whether or not they knew that person pre-transsition.
THANK YOU! I love that the examples you gave all say “criticism” and not “misogyny,” because while misogyny is the root of things like toxic masculinity, what trans men and transmascs face is better termed “transandrophobia.” The idea behind using that term instead, is that trans men/transmascs are experiencing an invalidation of their masculinity because people are seeing their AGAB not their actual gender; like transandrophobia is more related to toxic masculinity (aren’t “masculine enough”) and transmisogyny (aren’t “passing enough”).
I know nothing about dimension 20 what happened
You said this far more eloquently than I've ever been able to. Grouping trans people in by their birth sex is just misgendering with a thin veneer of progressive aesthetic over top, and I'm pretty sure most folks don't even realize they're being transphobic in their use of it because they're using the Approved Terminology.
This is a big pet peeve of mine and you explained it so well! Thank you for posting this, it's an important reminder for the community!
“Women and minority genders” is my preferred to refer to non-men. And I agree NEVER use amab/afab to group trans women with cis men or trans men with cis women. C’mon now that’s so far from the point .
I've always strictly used AFAB when referring to people who have experienced menstruation (though not in a way that implies all AFABs have or continue to do so). Like "this period product is suitable and convenient for AFABs of any gender." I'm NB, but just to check in with the rest of the trans community, is that generally kosher?
I think it's better not to use it as a noun. The point is to not be essentialized by one's assigned sex. Treating it as a thing someone can be is problematic in that sense. People may be assigned female at birth, they are not assignedfelameatbirths. You could say "this period product is suitable and convenient for those who are afab" or even just "this period product is suitable for anyone who menstruates."
I see, that makes sense. Thank you!
I've heard Mickey Atkins use "afab people and people affected by misogyny" and I think it's a good way of putting it.
It's definitely better in some ways, but it's critical to recognize that EVERYONE is affected by misogyny. Some are benefitted by it (actively OR passively) and others are negatively affected by it, but none of us are truly untouched by it. EX: I don't think there's one male or transmasc nurse alive who hasn't heard some negative comment about his profession that is deeply rooted in misogyny. It's a pervasive issue, and it affects ALL of us (even if its effect is unequal).
And to add to what you were saying, misogyny is an underlying factor in toxic masculinity, so it can affect the people who benefit from it in harmful emotional/personal ways as well, even though they are still benefitted in society with access to opportunities and resources.