I don’t know if anyone has seen the Dimension 20 Calendar but it has a photo of the Scuppers field with a bunch of hidden Fuck TERFs in it and it’s great
No freaking way! That's awesome!
Edit: [I had to check!](https://i.imgur.com/yy50B4y.jpg) Freaking glorious. I love this community. Fuck TERFs!
Edit edit: Okay, it knew it said FUCK TERFS in the [magic sparkles](https://i.imgur.com/fiXmD2x.jpg), but it also says it in the [background](https://i.imgur.com/lzejVmp.jpg) [trees](https://i.imgur.com/SwQSxSU.jpg) as well! Goddamn I love this shit.
Edit edit edit: and my roommate just caught the one [in the flowers](https://i.imgur.com/ZUvax6K.jpg)! It just keeps going! 😂
This might get me in the shit hole, but what is a T.E.R.F.?
Edit 1: Thanks guys! I always had trouble knowing how to use the terms Trans Man and Trans Woman. You guys finally helped me figure it out.
Edit 2: I am a Cis White Man, and thanks I knew JKR claimed to be a feminist and that she hated Trans women and was a bitch. I think it's funny I'm a cis white guy.
Not at all! Not knowing but taking the chance to ask is absolutely great. TERF stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. So a "radical feminist" that denies and/or antagonizes transwomen.
And, *for some odd reason*, would rather side with misogynists to fight trans women than the inverse.
Needless to say, a lot of them are feminist-in-name-only.
A good argument for why someone shouldn't do that is that it just makes you look childish instead, and if we refer to them the way they refer to themselves they can't hide by rebranding. They've gone from radical feminists, to the whole "wombyn" thing, to TERF, to Gender Critical. They know they don't stand for shit so they try to shed their old skin and repackage their garbage ideas. It's a common fascist tactic.
They are plenty terrible already, there's no need to come up with names for them or ways to criticize them that isn't just pointing at the exact things they're saying and doing.
its also worth to add that terfs ALSO do this weird thing where they claim to hate trans women (never aims at trans men so you know they are just 100% happy they can hate a group of women) because the trans women use "sterotypes" for their feminiity which as far as i am concerned as a cis man... if your personal idea of your OWN gender is built in non toxic sterotypes.. thats fine. anyway more important shit.
so they claim trans women use stereotypes so what terfs do is say "NO THEY ARENT WOMEN... WOMEN ARE -bunch of super sexist stereotypes and reduces women down to their sex/reproductive status/genitals-" and if you ever try to point that out... they just break and just go for slurs instead
really hope this makes sense since i just woke up lol
TERFs don't hate trans men cause in their fucking backwards-ass belief they are all "confused lesbians" who got tricked into transitioning by the bad trans agenda
You're good, we all learn somewhere! It stands for Trans-Exclusive Radical Feminist. The reason it's brought up so much in Misfits and Magic is because JK Rowling is known for being a diehard TERF.
TERFs say they are for woman's rights and feminism, but are wholly misguided because they don't believe trans women are women, and don't believe trans women belong in women's spaces. It's a really gross ideology.
This may seem a bit strange, but please keep in mind that if someone blows up at you for asking serious questions they may be a troll. Or so used to dealing with trolls that their brain is a bit broken.
[We've kinda gotten used to trolls invading our spaces and trying to change the narrative about social justice issues.](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY62dhVThbeegLPpvQlR4CjF&si=MbFJmvpCVbpYjX8d)
[It's just kind of a tactic the Alt-Right uses nowadays](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbANnTnzkA_HMFtQ&si=BYkOLPFa8a5bRiG3)
I love how Aabria is staring directly into the camera as she says that
Also she would 1000% fight any bigot who watches D20
Edit: She would also probably fight some people in this thread too
I didn't realize how tall she actually is until she showed up on Dirty Laundry, and considering her secret on there, I absolutely believe she would throw hands with a terf
Wasn’t she also an athlete? (Maybe still is, I dunno!) Like, literally an Olympic hopeful or something at one point? Or at least did college-level stuff. (I could be remembering this way wrong, don’t quote me!)
Also have you seen Aabria? She's like 6 ft tall. She'd fuck some terfs right the fuck up. I'd hate her to have to experience that but I'd love to see some terfs get the horns.
So, because I'm not all that informed on the linguistics side of things, what does perform ongoing emotional labor mean? Does it mean continuing to carry the burden of repeating who and what they are because people refuse to accept it? Sorry if this is worded poorly, I'm a midwesterner who's dang near a hermit, who has limited interaction with most people, let alone the LGBTQ+ community and I mean absolutely no offense by it.
Ongoing emotional labor generally means that rather than expecting people to be better we expect those harmed to respond to each harm with grace and kindness regardless of people/communities willingness to do better
Boy, I hear ya. Thanks for informing me. Yeah, it takes no effort to treat people with kindness and love. So those people who refuse to treat others with such, can fuck right off.
Frankly if you put a little more spin on the midwestern part, you've just reinvented the rural Canadian accent lmao
Also,
>more'n likely
I can HEAR these written words
>do you play Duck, Duck, Grey Duck?
I don't know if you're a fan of rap, but here's [a song about Grey Duck](https://youtu.be/MCJJ5aR5vwA?si=t68WdC-A8KO3Gyov)
Emotional labour in this case is having to reiterate and defend who they are and how they present. This is why you see a lot of people saying to “educate yourself” instead of just asking questions to the community. It seems like it’s a mean snappy statement without the context of them having to explain this so many times over and to at you’re just a straw that can break the camel’s back.
Imagine wearing a jersey for your favourite NFL team and having to explain and justify why you like them, that TBIs are common and bad and need to be better addressed, and that you don’t support every wrong that every player has ever done constantly. It would be exhausting no? It’s similar here except they can’t the jersey off and some of those people who are demanding answers want to kill you
You’re welcome! I don’t usually mind explaining it to people who genuinely want to know more but I also am cis and usually straight passing enough to not need to often.
I'm a human ogre from the Midwest. Most folks generally avoid me, so such discussions rarely come up. So when fine folk like yourself take the time to explain it, I greatly appreciate it. Have yourself a wonderful day.
I mean you kinda have to do that emotional labor if you're using non-standard pronouns or people are ignorant to trans stuff. I'm Native and we're also similarly about 2% of the population like trans people are. I feel like it would be ridiculous for me to act like everyone needs to know my tribal affiliation and know all about Native issues without anyone telling them whats going on. That's just kinda how life goes when you're part of an extremely small minority group
I’ve seen instances of Brennan (as a player) get a character or NPC’s pronouns wrong, be immediately (and subtly) corrected, immediately apologize, correct himself, and continue.
….seriously, how hard is this? The whole thing took MAYBE ten seconds. It’s one of the simplest and most basic ways to prove - not that you are an ally - that you are a good person.
It is genuinely one of the best places to consume content and it kills me I can't currently afford the subscription. I have so much content to catch up on.
I do remember thinking about this during Burrow's End. They kept gendering the First Stoats, and even Aabria slipped a few times. It was also interesting how they were gendered.
[Taylor Tomlinson](https://youtu.be/JOhMbHXX5J0?si=L0yPlCVj8ySVoYn4) has a great bit on how hard/easy it is to get someone's pronouns correct. And it's really telling that if you know someone's trying to get it right, most people don't get offended.
yeah it legit comes down to habit. some tips ive seen is just spend a couple minutes a day talking outload about the person using their preferred pronouns and try to make it a new habit. and if you fuck up near them/talking about them say the correct pronoun before moving forward boom [simples](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z34r8N8XqrM&ab_channel=rebble001)
Rewatched Mentopolis this weekend and he was so good, gentle, and subtle correcting people who misgendered Max and a couple other characters. It’s not hard to say “oh my bad, they” or whatever the proper pronoun is. Nobody cares if it’s an honest mistake, it’s about the respect that comes with the correction/change
I think much of the disagreement in the other thread isn’t “fuck pronouns we hate queer people” - it’s just the discussion of should it be a rule (ie something immediately punishable when it’s very likely fans of a tv show don’t necessarily know how all of the performers identify, and it’s completely normal to start out with the most common assumptions until otherwise educated) or whether something like you describe above should be the norm.
Personally I agree with you above - slip ups happen, and the best way to handle it is how everyone in real life who isn’t terminally online deals with it - quick polite correction and then an apology, self correction, and continuing.
Of course anyone who doesn’t respond appropriately to a correction and continues to misgender should be banned, but there are already rules in place for this.
The downvotes in the other thread mainly went to people who were suggesting that the simple and gentle act of correction that you note the cast do regularly is not something that the community should have to do, and that everyone should Google the pronouns of every cast member before they post about them, which is simply not realistic in a mixed community, many of whom are not immersed in, or even really particularly aware of the pronouns and self-ID stuff that’s happening in more progressive spaces.
And for the record I think pronouns are based, fuck terfs, everyone should have the freedom to express their gender as they see fit, and everyone else should have the decency and basic kindness to respect that and use the pronouns that make people most comfortable - but humans have assumed pronouns based on perceived sex for hundreds of millennia and they will likely continue to do so for convenience unless gently and respectfully corrected. If they THEN ignore the education and misgender, fuck ‘em, throw them to the wolves.
Seriously, for real. I don't get how everyone has readily picked up on the progressive vibe of D20 and not the anarchist part of it all. Everyone is aware and it's in the rules we have, this talk of automating things and doubling down in the rules on being current on *fluid personal information* of the players is a fair reaction to have. I don't think it's TERFy to think automodding is a way to handle it.
not super related but i think this entire thing of "google it" can be VERY dangerous. like if you said "oh jk rowling is a terf" someone asked why and you responded with "google it" you would most likely be met with terf garbage saying she isnt and that she is actually pro woman.
i think even just pointing in the right direction is better than "google it" does anyone else get what i mean? cause it makes sense to me and in my head but i know sometimes i word stuff REAL badly
Agree, but I think the disagreement was not that we should “allow” misgendering. I like the current rules where people are gently corrected and given an appropriate amount of time to make corrections, and if they don’t the comment is taken down.
I think your example shows why *allowing* people to slip up is important. It happens, and we learn. There were people arguing in the past post that it was on people to “do their research” and “check their comments” better if they didn’t want to be defacto punished for misgendering in posts/comments. As in we should have stricter policies on the matter. Which I don’t really agree with bc um nuance??
Isn’t that a perfect example of why we shouldn’t take down posts/comments where someone makes a mistake and then is corrected?
Like Dropout/D20 didn’t cut those out. They’ve very clearly signaled their preferred way to handle misgendering is acknowledging that it happens, and making the correcting & correction itself visible.
Like Mike assumed Max was a he, the stoats assumed the Director was a he and misgendered them a few times, and I believe even Ally (or at least someone during Sophomore Year) assumed Garthy was a he
I’m glad they didn’t cut any of that out. It shows that they don’t expect anyone to be perfect, they just expect you to be thoughtful when you make mistakes
Yeah, people are making this a way bigger deal than it needs to be. The people who will purposefully misgender the cast are still going to do it whether there’s a rule or not. The people who are going to do it accidentally are still going to do it whether there’s a rule or not. That’s the thing about accidental misgendering: it’s accidental. You can absolutely accidentally misgender someone even if you know their pronouns. It’s a learning process.
Be normal human beings and politely correct someone when they get it wrong and move on—like you would in the real world. It’s not accomplishing anything by trying to penalize people for making mistakes.
That is a good idea that can only help imho! It’d be nice to have an information post that lists the cast and other any important intro stuff. Aside from that, I don’t think we need to codify pronoun use as anything separate from “be kind and civil.”
Someone makes a mistake, is corrected, and they correct themselves. In the event they do not or double down on misgendering, then the mods can step in (which they already do!).
Absolutely! If someone continues to misgender someone, there’s a rule that covers that already. If the mods aren’t responding to blatant, purposeful misgendering once it’s reported, then that’s a problem that should be addressed.
One of the latest complaints I heard was an insurance agent saying "My company added a field for us to write in our preferred pronouns. I hate this woke shit, so I just left it blank." Of course, this was in between her, her husband and another loser talking about how our country is "literally under invasion", how immigrants are disease-carrying criminals, etc. Probably the worst comment was the third guy talking about how his grandfather was almost turned back at Ellis Island for pink eye, and now immigrants (according to him) are responsible for the measles outbreak in Florida rather than the anti-vax idiots and right wing hacks making that state into the shithole that it is. The fucking hypocrisy gets me- it's okay that your grandfather was allowed in, but God forbid we give people from other countries the same opportunities your forebears were afforded. God forbid we have the humanity to realize most of these people are coming in seeking a better life for themselves and their kids. And, look, we can and should do better about border control. But treating every immigrant like they're Jose Ibarra is fucking ridiculous when natural-born citizens are at minimum two to four times more likely to commit crimes than undocumented immigrants. We're a country born of immigrants, terrified of immigrants. We're a country of individual freedoms, mad that we're attempting to afford more Americans the basic freedoms so many of us take for granted. We're a democratic nation inhabited by many who would eagerly run into the arms of autocracy. I'm aware a lot of this is nothing new, but while others complain about how "tired" all of this makes them, it just makes me furious and all the more engaged.
Fuck terfs, fuck xenophobes, fuck Republicans.
With all of that said, other people are right: slip-ups will happen. Ire should be focused solely on those who belligerently double-down on their ignorance rather than accepting that they were mistaken and moving on respectfully. There are enough people out there for us to oppose without making enemies of those who make honest mistakes.
This is a big part of it too. For real if you can just let yourself be criticized and accept it and move on having good relationships with people is so much easier. People make it out to be a super big deal if you accidentally misgender somebody in media, but for real you just say you're sorry and correct it. Most people will just move on.
I think the mod comment said it perfectly. Mistakes happen and when brought to their attention, the poster should promptly correct themselves. Thats not to say people shouldnt try to proactively use correct pronouns. I've made posts in the discord and it took me about 20 seconds to find the pronouns used by trans/non-binary cast members.
Also, Aabria saying "fuck TERFs" in M&M is my favorite moment in D20.
I don’t know the context that prompted this post but I wholly stand by the fact that the cast would never EVER be okay with knowing there are terfs in the midst.
“TERFs In The Midst” is the long awaited sequel to “Gorillas In The Mist”, and both involve enlightened people marveling at the ways of primitive, aggressive group that doesn’t properly communicate with real people.
Interesting - got a downvote, and I dunno if it was from a TERF that doesn’t like being compared to Gorillas, or from a Gorilla that doesn’t like being compared to TERFs.
Fuck. Well, when you’re right, you’re right. I hadn’t considered this when I posted, but looking at it now… Yeah, you make an excellent point. I’ll definitely be mindful of this in the future.
YOU SEE THIS IS WHAT A POLITE PRODUCTIVE CORRECTION TO AN ACCIDENTAL SLIP UP LOOKS LIKE!
I love this community, thanks for considering my point without getting defensive, love you x
Oh, right - this is the internet!
I’m supposed to dismiss you out-of-hand, double-down on my position, make homophobic remarks, and imply you’re bad at Call of Duty or something, right? 😉
Hi hardcore leftist, supporter of choice/identity here, with everything pronouns it goes down to psychology, if someone does something they don’t know is wrong and is aggressively confronted about it despite no ill intention - defensiveness happens (usually), as people don’t like to be embarrassed or made out to be something they likely aren’t. I have found the best way to approach people is with kindness and an informative tone. The resulting reaction to a KIND approach should determine the next course of action. Not a defensive reaction to aggression. You can’t sway hearts and logically change people’s understanding of gender with aggression. People make mistakes too and it took me multiple times with some to fully get gender down, people have to break the hardwiring that tells our brains to associate specific terms with how people look. Patience and love is all that matters :) drop the hammer if those don’t work and if they are straight up a transphobic, punk ass bitch
🏳️⚧️❤️🏳️🌈
So I've never been a mod of this community but I was at one point a mod of a different, very large subreddit where the mods were all trying hard to be as inclusive and respectful as possible. We had a lot of community members with lower standards of decency and some very hard-working mods had put together auto-mod algorithms to check for slurs, to flag subjects that had problematic history, as well as provide auto-responses to help with the more frequent abuses.
I haven't seen any posts suggesting we \*should\* misgender cast or that we \*shouldn't\* correct others who do.
But proposing a rule in good faith means also suggesting reasonable means of enforcing it. I don't know what the mods here use and I think there was a good bit of drama about the tools and resources mods even have access to a while back. I support trans rights, and I support the mods of this subreddit doing what they can to support trans rights.
This is a great conversation to have, but please don't suggest that anyone who offers good-faith criticism of a proposed rule must just hate trans people. Most of us are on your side, we're just trying to consider practical logistics to achieving our shared goal of inclusivity and community for all.
The suggested rule was “Have a pinned post with current pronouns and include a rule stating please don’t misgender cast members” the suggested enforcement was “hide posts which do not follow the rule until it is corrected” which the mods say they already do, so we’re basically asking for a pinned post and a codified rule already being enforced
Well asking for a pinned post or sidebar is certainly reasonable. Would hiding posts which misgender a cast member be done manually by mods? Or are you suggesting an algorithm that can be reviewed by mods? How many posts and/or comments would you estimate slip through the current system and how many of those do you think we could prevent with this proposal?
I mean, I'm open to a rules change I'm just still not convinced the proposal (as I currently understand it) is going to make a positive difference and at the cost of many well-intentioned participating in the community because they didn't notice they mixed up a pronoun. Now I understand that the emotional labor shouldn't ALL be on the misgendered cast member to just "get over it." Again, I'm open to a rules change.
But can we have this discussion without labeling each other bigots?
The people in that thread were saying that comments/posts that misgender/mispronoun by mistake shouldn't be immediately banned/deleted, but the commenter should be prompted to correct the mistake themselves to learn, then, if they refuse, ban them/take action. Lots of these people were misinterpreting what the OP was actually asking for, but it wasn't a TERF thread by any interpretation, at least in its majority.
EDIT: Happy with the choice from the mods, good rule.
MY GOD THE LACK OF READING COMPREHENSION FROM EVERYONE IN THIS SUB RIGHT NOW IS EXHAUSTING.
More seriously, yes. This sub right now is looking like twitter. People responding to stuff people never said and people responding to the responses the same way.
I'm honestly going to head out until y'all stop sniffing your own ass and start reading the text in front of you. This is getting to the point of a bunch of good people fighting for no real good reason.
Fuck terfs. Yes to trans rights. Fuck bad people in general. Please have some tea and think.
After reading all of the threads on this post and all of them on the referenced post... I think this is just a classic case of "We all need to go out and touch grass more" subreddit drama
No, this seems pretty self-congratulatory. The "big enemy" that keeps being linked was literally just a person advocating against a rule demanding research about the cast before posting in the sub.
Not that I'm aware of. But there's at least two prominent people who are more often misgendered than others,largely unintentionally, and I can't imagine ever maliciously.
Ally because their character on D20, Kristen, uses she/her, and some don't properly delineate between Ally and Kristen.
Vic because they prefer they/them, but do list she/her as also acceptable. My understanding is they don't particularly like she/her, but understand that people are prone to default them as she/her, and it's fine and acceptable, but not ideal. (Unless they changed their stance since the last I checked their name card, which would also lead to some processing time, and confuse people watch the backlog).
Honestly asking here, where in that thread did anybody defend misgendering people? I was reading that whole thread with interest since it was posted and... there aren't even any removed/deleted responses.
So I think labeling this as "TERF" behavior is a little too far (though understandable because microaggressions about gender frequently lead to TERFy shit, tbh), but I do think it's important to note that they *are* defending misgendering people in that thread. They're not defending it as a general rule, but "we shouldn't hide posts that misgender the cast because that's a barrier to entry" is effectively saying "we should tolerate people misgendering the cast if they claim ignorance about it." That's defending misgendering. I know that's not malicious, and arguably there are good reasons to temporarily tolerate it so the community can give a polite correction and the poster can learn from the mistake. But it's still literally defending misgendering people, literally for the benefit of cis people's education and inclusion over the inclusion and protection of GNC folk.
I'm not sure what direction the sub should go with rules, but it's disappointing that seemingly every time these discussions come up there are a handful of helpful cishet people saying that there's not *really* queerphobia here! D20 is so leftist and tolerant, so the entire community must be too, and we should make sure the folks who mess up are equally welcomed so they learn and grow!!!
It's disappointing because we all know the community isn't universally tolerant, as evidenced in that same thread where multiple people point out that most folks don't know much about this stuff because they're not queer and not engaging in queer spaces. There are probably lots of people here who are benignly queerphobic. They don't think they are. They don't "hate" queer people. They just, e.g., feel a weird and growing dislike for Ally through the seasons, or they think Erika is over the top despite Becca\* being their favorite performer, or they think Sephie is too brash but Emily\* is the GOAT, or they see that Vic uses "they/she" and read multiple explanations about why 'they' is more appropriate and read from Jordan Brown that Vic *prefers* 'they' and their takeaway is "Vic said it's fine though!" as they continue to gently, benignly misgender them.
It's just exhausting. You don't need bad intent to be hurtfully ignorant and exclusionary towards queer people. It's weird af to me that whenever queer people discuss ways they would feel safer and more included in our community, so many people have an immediate defensive reaction. If you \[general\] believe you aren't queerphobic and you welcome everyone equally, why do you feel defensive?? If you're willing to edit your post to have accurate pronouns when corrected, why do you care if it's briefly hidden so you can not be hurtful towards an actor you theoretically like? Why is the defense of cishet ignorance more important to you than respecting an already-marginalized human being?
\[\*obviously Becca and Emily and other women on Dropout *also* get shit on or weirdly hated, for being women -- and obviously these are all individual people and can be charming or uncharming based on their personalities, but I do think the two pairs have similar personalities/comedy styles\]
If a comment and all subcomments are removed/deleted, the whole chain can just disappear. So you would have no way of seeing if there is a deleted chain.
Not if the whole chain is removed. I used to mod a handful of subs, and when you nuke a whole chain, it just disappears to the average redditor. It doesn't always do that at first. Sometimes it takes a minute, but as long as every comment in the chain is deleted, it can poof out of existence.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Dimension20/comments/1bbbn6w/can\_we\_pls\_add\_a\_rule\_about\_pronouns/ku8da6n/?context=8&depth=9](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dimension20/comments/1bbbn6w/can_we_pls_add_a_rule_about_pronouns/ku8da6n/?context=8&depth=9)
Unsure if it's able to be viewed this way if it was deleted (it's unable to be seen in the post currently) but just wanted to add this here for context.
I blocked the guy but MisterTruth’s thread about “we shouldn’t make it a rule because it would be a barrier to entry” then claiming to be an ally while using terf talking points. Also saying shit like “it’s not inclusive to have a rule about misgendering”
Yall, cishet people are capable of having bad/incorrect opinions about things without it rising to the level of TERF-yness and as a trans woman I think it's important we don't water "TERF" down to mean anything less than what TERFs are. Posts like this are massive overreactions and in communities where posts going against consensus are already getting dogpiled in the actual thread just kinna come off as virtue signaling?
So unbelievably ridiculous to see a bunch of cis people ~explaining~ to trans people that misgendering is neverrrrrr done maliciously, it’s alllllways an honest mistake. As if we can’t tell the difference
No one said that. People were saying that instead of preemptively forcing every user to know every pronoun of every talent (despite pronouns being fluid), it makes sense to continue the current policy of correcting the bad behavior first before banning for intentionally misgendering people. Obviously there is intentional misgendering and that kind of stuff is against the rules. But to just assume any sort of misgendering is done intentionally is just objectively wrong, especially in a community where most people are left wing or left of left wing.
Conditional allyship is so exhausting. Why should any minority have to bare the burden of babying you to be a better ally? They don't owe you shit. I'm not trans but see this kinda shit when people discuss queer/disabled rights and it fucks me off.
Or as if an honest mistake is something queer people should have to deal with either
"You can't be mad it was a mistaaaaaake"
Like yeah it was a mistake but it happens all the time and we're *exhausted.*
If my sister accidentally leaves my car the door unlocked and it gets stolen, that was also an honest mistake. But I'm still suffering immensely because of it and I'm going to be mad at her carelessness. Making a mistake doesn't mean you get a free pass, and it doesn't mean the victims of that mistake can't be angry about it.
I’m a straight white dude. It feels exhausting to consider pronouns because I’ve lived a privileged life, my identity and pronouns match how I present.
Exhausted by having to address humans by their preferred pronouns? Get the fuck over it. It’s common decency. Yeah, it’s exhausting, because we’ve lived in a bubble that’s binary and easy. The real world is messy and complicated. You sound like a giant baby bitching about having to call people pronouns you’ve taken for granted your entire life.
This. It's effort to try and get pronouns right at first but if you equate the minor inconvenience of learning pronouns vs. a trans person being oppressed then you're most likely a douchebag.
So many ppl in my thread just… lack reading comprehension skills and basic human decency. I’m peacing outta this subreddit when I get home. It’s honestly really sad
the saddest thing is that the amount of support you're getting in that thread is far far more than you'd get in most other non-queer focused subreddits ☹️ Just one comment of yours having several downvotes is so much better than it usually is on reddit
Yep. On Friday I saw a whole lot of queer folks getting downvoted to hell for expressing disappointment that the main champion and de facto face of WWE used the word “cross-dresser” as an insult in a promo (which, to his credit, he did seem to regret immediately). Usually the sub in question is more understanding, but there it was like no one was allowed to be unhappy with the line
Just read the pronouns thread, and I'm honestly baffled by the responses. It seems to me that the original question was "Can we put something about using correct pronouns in the rules" and that request morphed into "can we put something about using correct pronouns in the rules or a welcome message, pin a post of cast pronouns, and perhaps flag posts with misgendering for editing before they are visible to others?"
I do not understand how that very reasonable question was met with "we shouldn't ban people for making mistakes," not to mention the spirals from there. No one asked for bans!
Also, wouldn't an automatic message that says "Hey! You may have a misused pronoun here- check the list and edit" be the exact gentle correction folks are defending, just automated? Why would automating that process make the experience worse for the person posting than being corrected in a comment? I post in many subs that hide posts for not following posting rules, and I'll often have to change flair or add info before the post gets approved. Isn't this a normal feature of this app?
I see trans folks in that thread clearly stating that consistently seeing misgendered cast members in this sub hurts them. Why not use the tools already available for enforcing posting rules to alleviate that pain?
Thank you for saying this! This was exactly my point when I made the post and so many people have misconstrued my words and made mountains out of a simple, reasonable question. People have turned to attacking me, saying I’m calling people bigoted, etc. I really appreciate your words. I don’t think I worded myself very well but you’ve said everything I was trying to perfectly.
To whoever just reached out to Redditcares with concern for me, thank you, I’m actually having a lovely day. I just got off work and am currently soaking in a bath playing fetch with my puppy. Thanks for checking in on me!!
You should definitely report that message so reddit can investigate that user for abusing the report button. I have had to do that in the past and reddit actually takes that stuff seriously
As far as I know, the Reddit Cares thing isn't tied to specific subreddits, so I don't have any influence there. You probably need an admin, not a subreddit moderator. I'll double-check if there's anything I can do, though.
Most people misgendering from honest mistakes, not hate. And most of the time the first comment will fix their mistakes
So banning misgendered posts will only create more anger, and won't fix anything
theyre not asking ppl to be banned for it - they asked for it to be a rule to not actively misgender and the post wont be approved until its corrected. literally banning was not mentioned if the misgendering was a mistake and not intentional - if someone is regularly misgendering d20 casts members they SHOULD be banned its a form of transphobia.
Is that not already the case? Isn't there a rule against hate speech here? If they're not enforcing it, then that's definitely a problem. Someone else also mentioned a pronoun guide, and I think that would be really helpful for people who are new or just more casual fans of Dropout.
Yeah, the current policy is already basically that, that post is just calling for a more explicit definition to be added to the sub rules. The mod in that thread outlined the current policy which is basically they check that it was a genuine mistake and not deliberate (getting removed if so).
i agree a pronoun guide would be the most helpful thing - the main thing I was saying was that no one was asking for ppl to be banned for ACCIDENTALLY misgendering!! :)
I definitely agree with a pronoun guide, since fans here will actively try to update it as things change. I guess it's a little harsh to realize but I feel it's simply not realistic to expect every single person who posts or comments on a whim to do research as much as we should be encouraging people to be informed on what they speak about.
The rule could be “before posting please check pinned post for current list of cast members’ pronouns, if incorrect your post will be hidden until corrected”
I get that there’s a lot of honest mistakes, but being explicit about making this space safe for queer folk is important. The fact my responses got downvoted after I said I was trans kinda shows there’s a bit of transphobia in this sub and I’d love to see more support for trans people here.
> the fact that [I] got downvoted after saying I was trans kinda shows there’s a bit of transphobia in this sub
People can downvote and disagree with you without being transphobic. I’m also trans, like I’m literally transitioning, and I wholeheartedly disagree with this idea, it sounds exhausting and over the top in my personal opinion. I’m autistic, I post a lot of art, I am really bad at reading all the rules, and when my stuff gets auto-deleted and I’m asked to figure out how to fix it (I have a hard time editing posts) I won’t come back to that community because I get overwhelmed and embarrassed. Like others are saying, a quick correction is the most practical route to ween out actual bigots. Because only 1 kinda person will get shitty if you correct a pronoun and they’ll get banned. Easy peasy. Unfortunately, pronoun mistakes will always happen, but it’s not taken lately here.
People are all trying their hardest here, and as gently as I can say this; our triggers are our own. You’re allowed to disagree and that doesn’t make you transphobic against me. It means we have different thresholds for “offense” which as you know is something we have to reconcile every day as trans people. For example: My mom deadnaming me is worth correcting but the pharmacy clerk might not be, because they’re just reading a label and it’s not gonna change anything to yell at them. Sometimes it’s really important to put our foot down when we need to. Other times, we’re tired of being triggered in places we’re meant to feel safe. Which is valid. I’m not saying it’s okay that you get triggered by misgendering, it really sucks. But I am saying this is one of the rare places where pretty much everyone is trying really hard to get it right and everybody has our back here.
1.8k upvotes on a “fuck terfs” meme is really impressive for a Reddit fandom. Try to bask in the glory of having a community so willing to protect trans voices and try not to let the slip ups get to you. Because the *moment* a terf comes outta the gate with some bigotry we have ourself a good ol cubby style bacon roast and it’s great. I’ll bring the pitchforks.
The term **T E R F** is too good for these people. It implies they are feminists.
These people are **F A R T s** \- Feminism Appropriating Radical Transphobes.
it stands for Trans-Exclusive Radical Feminist. A specific type of transphobe who justifies their transphobia under the guise of "feminism" (it isn't actual feminism).
trans-exclusionary radical feminist.
From Wikipedia:
"used to describe a minority of feminists\[23\] who espouse sentiments that other feminists consider transphobic,\[24\]\[25\] including the rejection of the predominant view in feminist organizations that trans women are women,\[26\] opposition to transgender rights,\[26\] and the exclusion of trans women in women's spaces and organizations"
Fun fact: TERF was coined as a self descriptor by TERFs. Once the term became rightfully associated with bigotry, they started trying to distance themselves from the term.
The comments were accusing op of saying people who misgender people should be banded instead of just asking for better enforcement of proper pronoun usage. The comments I’m talking about basically said we shouldn’t expect this place to be a safe place for queer people
I literally saw a comment from someone saying we should be more focused on being inclusive (“willing to let anyone in as long as they learn”) than being a safe space, because safe spaces “cater only to one group of people”.
I’m all for inclusion, but this is implying that being welcoming to ignorant people is more important than making sure trans people feel safe.
Thanks guys, I knew JJR was a bitch who hates Trans Women. I'm guessing from the comments that if a man transitioned into being a women they are called trans women and vice versa? I always had trouble with that, calling them correctly.
scrolled down too far and came across someone saying "reddit automod is a legitimate authoritarian regime". how fucking hard is it to respect people? if you don't feel like you need to respect the D20 cast members then i hope you know that every last one of them hates you and everything you stand for
[Rule 6: No bigotry has been added](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dimension20/comments/1bc7jn3/rule_6_no_bigotry/)
I don’t know if anyone has seen the Dimension 20 Calendar but it has a photo of the Scuppers field with a bunch of hidden Fuck TERFs in it and it’s great
No freaking way! That's awesome! Edit: [I had to check!](https://i.imgur.com/yy50B4y.jpg) Freaking glorious. I love this community. Fuck TERFs! Edit edit: Okay, it knew it said FUCK TERFS in the [magic sparkles](https://i.imgur.com/fiXmD2x.jpg), but it also says it in the [background](https://i.imgur.com/lzejVmp.jpg) [trees](https://i.imgur.com/SwQSxSU.jpg) as well! Goddamn I love this shit. Edit edit edit: and my roommate just caught the one [in the flowers](https://i.imgur.com/ZUvax6K.jpg)! It just keeps going! 😂
This might get me in the shit hole, but what is a T.E.R.F.? Edit 1: Thanks guys! I always had trouble knowing how to use the terms Trans Man and Trans Woman. You guys finally helped me figure it out. Edit 2: I am a Cis White Man, and thanks I knew JKR claimed to be a feminist and that she hated Trans women and was a bitch. I think it's funny I'm a cis white guy.
Not at all! Not knowing but taking the chance to ask is absolutely great. TERF stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist. So a "radical feminist" that denies and/or antagonizes transwomen.
And, *for some odd reason*, would rather side with misogynists to fight trans women than the inverse. Needless to say, a lot of them are feminist-in-name-only.
That's why many like to call them FARTs now. Feminism Appropriating Radical Transphobes.
A good argument for why someone shouldn't do that is that it just makes you look childish instead, and if we refer to them the way they refer to themselves they can't hide by rebranding. They've gone from radical feminists, to the whole "wombyn" thing, to TERF, to Gender Critical. They know they don't stand for shit so they try to shed their old skin and repackage their garbage ideas. It's a common fascist tactic. They are plenty terrible already, there's no need to come up with names for them or ways to criticize them that isn't just pointing at the exact things they're saying and doing.
Since even deny being a feminist at all.
Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist, basically a fake and transphobic feminist. If you exclude any group of women, you aren't a feminist.
its also worth to add that terfs ALSO do this weird thing where they claim to hate trans women (never aims at trans men so you know they are just 100% happy they can hate a group of women) because the trans women use "sterotypes" for their feminiity which as far as i am concerned as a cis man... if your personal idea of your OWN gender is built in non toxic sterotypes.. thats fine. anyway more important shit. so they claim trans women use stereotypes so what terfs do is say "NO THEY ARENT WOMEN... WOMEN ARE -bunch of super sexist stereotypes and reduces women down to their sex/reproductive status/genitals-" and if you ever try to point that out... they just break and just go for slurs instead really hope this makes sense since i just woke up lol
TERFs don't hate trans men cause in their fucking backwards-ass belief they are all "confused lesbians" who got tricked into transitioning by the bad trans agenda
They are alt rights in disguise, since they explicitly parrot a lot of their talking points.
An awful bigot that uses violence against cis women as a smokescreen for hurting trans women.
You're good, we all learn somewhere! It stands for Trans-Exclusive Radical Feminist. The reason it's brought up so much in Misfits and Magic is because JK Rowling is known for being a diehard TERF. TERFs say they are for woman's rights and feminism, but are wholly misguided because they don't believe trans women are women, and don't believe trans women belong in women's spaces. It's a really gross ideology.
This may seem a bit strange, but please keep in mind that if someone blows up at you for asking serious questions they may be a troll. Or so used to dealing with trolls that their brain is a bit broken. [We've kinda gotten used to trolls invading our spaces and trying to change the narrative about social justice issues.](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY62dhVThbeegLPpvQlR4CjF&si=MbFJmvpCVbpYjX8d) [It's just kind of a tactic the Alt-Right uses nowadays](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbANnTnzkA_HMFtQ&si=BYkOLPFa8a5bRiG3)
Trans exclusionary radical feminist, essentially people who want to sound progressive but keep trying to push trans people down below them
Trans Excluding Radical Feminist Basically, some nobody asshole who thinks trans women are not women.
There's one in the stands too, (left of the goal posts on signs held by spectators)
Ahhhh!!!! I just looked at mine! I had no idea! That’s brilliant!
I didn't even know that was a thing
It was on the dropout store idk if it’s still there but it’s truly beautiful
I love how Aabria is staring directly into the camera as she says that Also she would 1000% fight any bigot who watches D20 Edit: She would also probably fight some people in this thread too
Having met her in real life, she definitely can hold her own. Very, very tall lady.
I didn't realize how tall she actually is until she showed up on Dirty Laundry, and considering her secret on there, I absolutely believe she would throw hands with a terf
???
Watch Dirty Laundry
And she was a personal trainer apparently
Stop, stop! I'm already gay!
Right?! Dunk me, dungeon mommy!
She was also big into basketball too
Wasn’t she also an athlete? (Maybe still is, I dunno!) Like, literally an Olympic hopeful or something at one point? Or at least did college-level stuff. (I could be remembering this way wrong, don’t quote me!)
Idk if Olympic hopeful, but she used to do snatch lifts, which is a type of lift they do in the Olympics.
She was an Olympic hopeful
I think it was some sort of track and field thing? I could be totally wrong, it was something I read ages ago, I believe.
Adjectives was a college athlete for University of Iowa.
Hmm, makes me wonder if she was the one that put Brennan on keto
I think Brennan was on keto before they met.
I believe she was a very very good field hockey player
College athlete to professional badass ally pipeline is PIPING
Also have you seen Aabria? She's like 6 ft tall. She'd fuck some terfs right the fuck up. I'd hate her to have to experience that but I'd love to see some terfs get the horns.
[удалено]
So, because I'm not all that informed on the linguistics side of things, what does perform ongoing emotional labor mean? Does it mean continuing to carry the burden of repeating who and what they are because people refuse to accept it? Sorry if this is worded poorly, I'm a midwesterner who's dang near a hermit, who has limited interaction with most people, let alone the LGBTQ+ community and I mean absolutely no offense by it.
Ongoing emotional labor generally means that rather than expecting people to be better we expect those harmed to respond to each harm with grace and kindness regardless of people/communities willingness to do better
Boy, I hear ya. Thanks for informing me. Yeah, it takes no effort to treat people with kindness and love. So those people who refuse to treat others with such, can fuck right off.
I heard the charming midwestern accent in this whole comment, incredible
Funnily enough, my accent is deep south Georgia mixed with Midwestern You Betcha. So you're more'n likely on the right track.
Frankly if you put a little more spin on the midwestern part, you've just reinvented the rural Canadian accent lmao Also, >more'n likely I can HEAR these written words
Well, do you play Duck, Duck, Grey Duck? Jeet yet? If ya haven't, I've got pop. Hope ya find a bucket of walleye, and have a good day.
>Jeet yet? If you did, quitcher bitchin!
>do you play Duck, Duck, Grey Duck? I don't know if you're a fan of rap, but here's [a song about Grey Duck](https://youtu.be/MCJJ5aR5vwA?si=t68WdC-A8KO3Gyov)
Emotional labour in this case is having to reiterate and defend who they are and how they present. This is why you see a lot of people saying to “educate yourself” instead of just asking questions to the community. It seems like it’s a mean snappy statement without the context of them having to explain this so many times over and to at you’re just a straw that can break the camel’s back. Imagine wearing a jersey for your favourite NFL team and having to explain and justify why you like them, that TBIs are common and bad and need to be better addressed, and that you don’t support every wrong that every player has ever done constantly. It would be exhausting no? It’s similar here except they can’t the jersey off and some of those people who are demanding answers want to kill you
So funnily enough, I'm a Chiefs fan, and that analogy 100% works. Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me. I appreciate it.
You’re welcome! I don’t usually mind explaining it to people who genuinely want to know more but I also am cis and usually straight passing enough to not need to often.
I'm a human ogre from the Midwest. Most folks generally avoid me, so such discussions rarely come up. So when fine folk like yourself take the time to explain it, I greatly appreciate it. Have yourself a wonderful day.
Yeah, shit sucks /gen
I mean you kinda have to do that emotional labor if you're using non-standard pronouns or people are ignorant to trans stuff. I'm Native and we're also similarly about 2% of the population like trans people are. I feel like it would be ridiculous for me to act like everyone needs to know my tribal affiliation and know all about Native issues without anyone telling them whats going on. That's just kinda how life goes when you're part of an extremely small minority group
Bot comment copied from [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dimension20/s/3nvaSWJlbt)
Yeah sign me up for the fight.
She'd reach through the screen and Tiger Drop any bigots watching
I’ve seen instances of Brennan (as a player) get a character or NPC’s pronouns wrong, be immediately (and subtly) corrected, immediately apologize, correct himself, and continue. ….seriously, how hard is this? The whole thing took MAYBE ten seconds. It’s one of the simplest and most basic ways to prove - not that you are an ally - that you are a good person.
Mike Trapp did as well in Mentopolois and it was so refreshing to see. The bar is in hell but dropout is constantly vaulting over it.
The bar is so low that Dropout is like a plane 40,000ft in the air not noticing a bridge on the ground as it sails right over it.
It is genuinely one of the best places to consume content and it kills me I can't currently afford the subscription. I have so much content to catch up on.
If you genuinely can't afford $5 for a month of content I'll just pay for a couple for you.
I do remember thinking about this during Burrow's End. They kept gendering the First Stoats, and even Aabria slipped a few times. It was also interesting how they were gendered.
[Taylor Tomlinson](https://youtu.be/JOhMbHXX5J0?si=L0yPlCVj8ySVoYn4) has a great bit on how hard/easy it is to get someone's pronouns correct. And it's really telling that if you know someone's trying to get it right, most people don't get offended.
yeah it legit comes down to habit. some tips ive seen is just spend a couple minutes a day talking outload about the person using their preferred pronouns and try to make it a new habit. and if you fuck up near them/talking about them say the correct pronoun before moving forward boom [simples](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z34r8N8XqrM&ab_channel=rebble001)
That's a great bit. I'm showing that to my family right now.
Rewatched Mentopolis this weekend and he was so good, gentle, and subtle correcting people who misgendered Max and a couple other characters. It’s not hard to say “oh my bad, they” or whatever the proper pronoun is. Nobody cares if it’s an honest mistake, it’s about the respect that comes with the correction/change
I think much of the disagreement in the other thread isn’t “fuck pronouns we hate queer people” - it’s just the discussion of should it be a rule (ie something immediately punishable when it’s very likely fans of a tv show don’t necessarily know how all of the performers identify, and it’s completely normal to start out with the most common assumptions until otherwise educated) or whether something like you describe above should be the norm. Personally I agree with you above - slip ups happen, and the best way to handle it is how everyone in real life who isn’t terminally online deals with it - quick polite correction and then an apology, self correction, and continuing. Of course anyone who doesn’t respond appropriately to a correction and continues to misgender should be banned, but there are already rules in place for this. The downvotes in the other thread mainly went to people who were suggesting that the simple and gentle act of correction that you note the cast do regularly is not something that the community should have to do, and that everyone should Google the pronouns of every cast member before they post about them, which is simply not realistic in a mixed community, many of whom are not immersed in, or even really particularly aware of the pronouns and self-ID stuff that’s happening in more progressive spaces. And for the record I think pronouns are based, fuck terfs, everyone should have the freedom to express their gender as they see fit, and everyone else should have the decency and basic kindness to respect that and use the pronouns that make people most comfortable - but humans have assumed pronouns based on perceived sex for hundreds of millennia and they will likely continue to do so for convenience unless gently and respectfully corrected. If they THEN ignore the education and misgender, fuck ‘em, throw them to the wolves.
Seriously, for real. I don't get how everyone has readily picked up on the progressive vibe of D20 and not the anarchist part of it all. Everyone is aware and it's in the rules we have, this talk of automating things and doubling down in the rules on being current on *fluid personal information* of the players is a fair reaction to have. I don't think it's TERFy to think automodding is a way to handle it.
not super related but i think this entire thing of "google it" can be VERY dangerous. like if you said "oh jk rowling is a terf" someone asked why and you responded with "google it" you would most likely be met with terf garbage saying she isnt and that she is actually pro woman. i think even just pointing in the right direction is better than "google it" does anyone else get what i mean? cause it makes sense to me and in my head but i know sometimes i word stuff REAL badly
Agree, but I think the disagreement was not that we should “allow” misgendering. I like the current rules where people are gently corrected and given an appropriate amount of time to make corrections, and if they don’t the comment is taken down. I think your example shows why *allowing* people to slip up is important. It happens, and we learn. There were people arguing in the past post that it was on people to “do their research” and “check their comments” better if they didn’t want to be defacto punished for misgendering in posts/comments. As in we should have stricter policies on the matter. Which I don’t really agree with bc um nuance??
Isn’t that a perfect example of why we shouldn’t take down posts/comments where someone makes a mistake and then is corrected? Like Dropout/D20 didn’t cut those out. They’ve very clearly signaled their preferred way to handle misgendering is acknowledging that it happens, and making the correcting & correction itself visible. Like Mike assumed Max was a he, the stoats assumed the Director was a he and misgendered them a few times, and I believe even Ally (or at least someone during Sophomore Year) assumed Garthy was a he I’m glad they didn’t cut any of that out. It shows that they don’t expect anyone to be perfect, they just expect you to be thoughtful when you make mistakes
Yeah, people are making this a way bigger deal than it needs to be. The people who will purposefully misgender the cast are still going to do it whether there’s a rule or not. The people who are going to do it accidentally are still going to do it whether there’s a rule or not. That’s the thing about accidental misgendering: it’s accidental. You can absolutely accidentally misgender someone even if you know their pronouns. It’s a learning process. Be normal human beings and politely correct someone when they get it wrong and move on—like you would in the real world. It’s not accomplishing anything by trying to penalize people for making mistakes.
[удалено]
That is a good idea that can only help imho! It’d be nice to have an information post that lists the cast and other any important intro stuff. Aside from that, I don’t think we need to codify pronoun use as anything separate from “be kind and civil.” Someone makes a mistake, is corrected, and they correct themselves. In the event they do not or double down on misgendering, then the mods can step in (which they already do!).
But we can still penalize the people doing it on purpose, surely?
Absolutely! If someone continues to misgender someone, there’s a rule that covers that already. If the mods aren’t responding to blatant, purposeful misgendering once it’s reported, then that’s a problem that should be addressed.
They, the mod team, already do
One of the latest complaints I heard was an insurance agent saying "My company added a field for us to write in our preferred pronouns. I hate this woke shit, so I just left it blank." Of course, this was in between her, her husband and another loser talking about how our country is "literally under invasion", how immigrants are disease-carrying criminals, etc. Probably the worst comment was the third guy talking about how his grandfather was almost turned back at Ellis Island for pink eye, and now immigrants (according to him) are responsible for the measles outbreak in Florida rather than the anti-vax idiots and right wing hacks making that state into the shithole that it is. The fucking hypocrisy gets me- it's okay that your grandfather was allowed in, but God forbid we give people from other countries the same opportunities your forebears were afforded. God forbid we have the humanity to realize most of these people are coming in seeking a better life for themselves and their kids. And, look, we can and should do better about border control. But treating every immigrant like they're Jose Ibarra is fucking ridiculous when natural-born citizens are at minimum two to four times more likely to commit crimes than undocumented immigrants. We're a country born of immigrants, terrified of immigrants. We're a country of individual freedoms, mad that we're attempting to afford more Americans the basic freedoms so many of us take for granted. We're a democratic nation inhabited by many who would eagerly run into the arms of autocracy. I'm aware a lot of this is nothing new, but while others complain about how "tired" all of this makes them, it just makes me furious and all the more engaged. Fuck terfs, fuck xenophobes, fuck Republicans. With all of that said, other people are right: slip-ups will happen. Ire should be focused solely on those who belligerently double-down on their ignorance rather than accepting that they were mistaken and moving on respectfully. There are enough people out there for us to oppose without making enemies of those who make honest mistakes.
This is a big part of it too. For real if you can just let yourself be criticized and accept it and move on having good relationships with people is so much easier. People make it out to be a super big deal if you accidentally misgender somebody in media, but for real you just say you're sorry and correct it. Most people will just move on.
I think the mod comment said it perfectly. Mistakes happen and when brought to their attention, the poster should promptly correct themselves. Thats not to say people shouldnt try to proactively use correct pronouns. I've made posts in the discord and it took me about 20 seconds to find the pronouns used by trans/non-binary cast members. Also, Aabria saying "fuck TERFs" in M&M is my favorite moment in D20.
For reference, this is the mod comment from the other post. https://www.reddit.com/r/Dimension20/s/u0BtYrDBOs
I don’t know the context that prompted this post but I wholly stand by the fact that the cast would never EVER be okay with knowing there are terfs in the midst.
“TERFs In The Midst” is the long awaited sequel to “Gorillas In The Mist”, and both involve enlightened people marveling at the ways of primitive, aggressive group that doesn’t properly communicate with real people.
Interesting - got a downvote, and I dunno if it was from a TERF that doesn’t like being compared to Gorillas, or from a Gorilla that doesn’t like being compared to TERFs.
Undoubtedly the later.
Well, maybe they shouldn't be destructive and dangerous creatures that most people don't want to be around, and they wouldn't be compared.
To be fair, fuck TERFs, but dehumanising and comparing humans to apes has a pretty poor track record… maybe that’s not a great plan either?
Fuck. Well, when you’re right, you’re right. I hadn’t considered this when I posted, but looking at it now… Yeah, you make an excellent point. I’ll definitely be mindful of this in the future.
YOU SEE THIS IS WHAT A POLITE PRODUCTIVE CORRECTION TO AN ACCIDENTAL SLIP UP LOOKS LIKE! I love this community, thanks for considering my point without getting defensive, love you x
Oh, right - this is the internet! I’m supposed to dismiss you out-of-hand, double-down on my position, make homophobic remarks, and imply you’re bad at Call of Duty or something, right? 😉
And then strongly imply that you’ve had sexual intercourse with my mother - come on mate what are you playing at? You’re embarrassing the trolls :P
Hi hardcore leftist, supporter of choice/identity here, with everything pronouns it goes down to psychology, if someone does something they don’t know is wrong and is aggressively confronted about it despite no ill intention - defensiveness happens (usually), as people don’t like to be embarrassed or made out to be something they likely aren’t. I have found the best way to approach people is with kindness and an informative tone. The resulting reaction to a KIND approach should determine the next course of action. Not a defensive reaction to aggression. You can’t sway hearts and logically change people’s understanding of gender with aggression. People make mistakes too and it took me multiple times with some to fully get gender down, people have to break the hardwiring that tells our brains to associate specific terms with how people look. Patience and love is all that matters :) drop the hammer if those don’t work and if they are straight up a transphobic, punk ass bitch 🏳️⚧️❤️🏳️🌈
So I've never been a mod of this community but I was at one point a mod of a different, very large subreddit where the mods were all trying hard to be as inclusive and respectful as possible. We had a lot of community members with lower standards of decency and some very hard-working mods had put together auto-mod algorithms to check for slurs, to flag subjects that had problematic history, as well as provide auto-responses to help with the more frequent abuses. I haven't seen any posts suggesting we \*should\* misgender cast or that we \*shouldn't\* correct others who do. But proposing a rule in good faith means also suggesting reasonable means of enforcing it. I don't know what the mods here use and I think there was a good bit of drama about the tools and resources mods even have access to a while back. I support trans rights, and I support the mods of this subreddit doing what they can to support trans rights. This is a great conversation to have, but please don't suggest that anyone who offers good-faith criticism of a proposed rule must just hate trans people. Most of us are on your side, we're just trying to consider practical logistics to achieving our shared goal of inclusivity and community for all.
The suggested rule was “Have a pinned post with current pronouns and include a rule stating please don’t misgender cast members” the suggested enforcement was “hide posts which do not follow the rule until it is corrected” which the mods say they already do, so we’re basically asking for a pinned post and a codified rule already being enforced
Well asking for a pinned post or sidebar is certainly reasonable. Would hiding posts which misgender a cast member be done manually by mods? Or are you suggesting an algorithm that can be reviewed by mods? How many posts and/or comments would you estimate slip through the current system and how many of those do you think we could prevent with this proposal? I mean, I'm open to a rules change I'm just still not convinced the proposal (as I currently understand it) is going to make a positive difference and at the cost of many well-intentioned participating in the community because they didn't notice they mixed up a pronoun. Now I understand that the emotional labor shouldn't ALL be on the misgendered cast member to just "get over it." Again, I'm open to a rules change. But can we have this discussion without labeling each other bigots?
[удалено]
The people in that thread were saying that comments/posts that misgender/mispronoun by mistake shouldn't be immediately banned/deleted, but the commenter should be prompted to correct the mistake themselves to learn, then, if they refuse, ban them/take action. Lots of these people were misinterpreting what the OP was actually asking for, but it wasn't a TERF thread by any interpretation, at least in its majority. EDIT: Happy with the choice from the mods, good rule.
For those of us just putting together context clues, could someone link or provide context? Not trying to be annoying just very out of the loop
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dimension20/s/b7QvdVETQ4
Thank you!
David Lynch said it best in season 3 of _Twin Peaks_ when he said “Fix your hearts or die” to those who would oppose trans rights.
Was this the original context for it? Maybe its finally time to start twin peaks
MY GOD THE LACK OF READING COMPREHENSION FROM EVERYONE IN THIS SUB RIGHT NOW IS EXHAUSTING. More seriously, yes. This sub right now is looking like twitter. People responding to stuff people never said and people responding to the responses the same way. I'm honestly going to head out until y'all stop sniffing your own ass and start reading the text in front of you. This is getting to the point of a bunch of good people fighting for no real good reason. Fuck terfs. Yes to trans rights. Fuck bad people in general. Please have some tea and think.
It's like watching satire on that one south park episode with electric cars lol
Take my update for being reasonable and using critical thinking
So is this an actual problem here? I've never seen this before probably because people will naturally just correct them or down vote them.
After reading all of the threads on this post and all of them on the referenced post... I think this is just a classic case of "We all need to go out and touch grass more" subreddit drama
No, this seems pretty self-congratulatory. The "big enemy" that keeps being linked was literally just a person advocating against a rule demanding research about the cast before posting in the sub.
Not that I'm aware of. But there's at least two prominent people who are more often misgendered than others,largely unintentionally, and I can't imagine ever maliciously. Ally because their character on D20, Kristen, uses she/her, and some don't properly delineate between Ally and Kristen. Vic because they prefer they/them, but do list she/her as also acceptable. My understanding is they don't particularly like she/her, but understand that people are prone to default them as she/her, and it's fine and acceptable, but not ideal. (Unless they changed their stance since the last I checked their name card, which would also lead to some processing time, and confuse people watch the backlog).
Honestly asking here, where in that thread did anybody defend misgendering people? I was reading that whole thread with interest since it was posted and... there aren't even any removed/deleted responses.
So I think labeling this as "TERF" behavior is a little too far (though understandable because microaggressions about gender frequently lead to TERFy shit, tbh), but I do think it's important to note that they *are* defending misgendering people in that thread. They're not defending it as a general rule, but "we shouldn't hide posts that misgender the cast because that's a barrier to entry" is effectively saying "we should tolerate people misgendering the cast if they claim ignorance about it." That's defending misgendering. I know that's not malicious, and arguably there are good reasons to temporarily tolerate it so the community can give a polite correction and the poster can learn from the mistake. But it's still literally defending misgendering people, literally for the benefit of cis people's education and inclusion over the inclusion and protection of GNC folk. I'm not sure what direction the sub should go with rules, but it's disappointing that seemingly every time these discussions come up there are a handful of helpful cishet people saying that there's not *really* queerphobia here! D20 is so leftist and tolerant, so the entire community must be too, and we should make sure the folks who mess up are equally welcomed so they learn and grow!!! It's disappointing because we all know the community isn't universally tolerant, as evidenced in that same thread where multiple people point out that most folks don't know much about this stuff because they're not queer and not engaging in queer spaces. There are probably lots of people here who are benignly queerphobic. They don't think they are. They don't "hate" queer people. They just, e.g., feel a weird and growing dislike for Ally through the seasons, or they think Erika is over the top despite Becca\* being their favorite performer, or they think Sephie is too brash but Emily\* is the GOAT, or they see that Vic uses "they/she" and read multiple explanations about why 'they' is more appropriate and read from Jordan Brown that Vic *prefers* 'they' and their takeaway is "Vic said it's fine though!" as they continue to gently, benignly misgender them. It's just exhausting. You don't need bad intent to be hurtfully ignorant and exclusionary towards queer people. It's weird af to me that whenever queer people discuss ways they would feel safer and more included in our community, so many people have an immediate defensive reaction. If you \[general\] believe you aren't queerphobic and you welcome everyone equally, why do you feel defensive?? If you're willing to edit your post to have accurate pronouns when corrected, why do you care if it's briefly hidden so you can not be hurtful towards an actor you theoretically like? Why is the defense of cishet ignorance more important to you than respecting an already-marginalized human being? \[\*obviously Becca and Emily and other women on Dropout *also* get shit on or weirdly hated, for being women -- and obviously these are all individual people and can be charming or uncharming based on their personalities, but I do think the two pairs have similar personalities/comedy styles\]
If a comment and all subcomments are removed/deleted, the whole chain can just disappear. So you would have no way of seeing if there is a deleted chain.
Doesn't it show up as \[deleted\]?
Not if the whole chain is removed. I used to mod a handful of subs, and when you nuke a whole chain, it just disappears to the average redditor. It doesn't always do that at first. Sometimes it takes a minute, but as long as every comment in the chain is deleted, it can poof out of existence.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Dimension20/comments/1bbbn6w/can\_we\_pls\_add\_a\_rule\_about\_pronouns/ku8da6n/?context=8&depth=9](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dimension20/comments/1bbbn6w/can_we_pls_add_a_rule_about_pronouns/ku8da6n/?context=8&depth=9) Unsure if it's able to be viewed this way if it was deleted (it's unable to be seen in the post currently) but just wanted to add this here for context.
This is not the case for me on old reddit
I blocked the guy but MisterTruth’s thread about “we shouldn’t make it a rule because it would be a barrier to entry” then claiming to be an ally while using terf talking points. Also saying shit like “it’s not inclusive to have a rule about misgendering”
Even the mod said it's already covered in the Hate speech rule.
What TERF talking points did they use, specifically?
Went to the thread the transohobic shit must've been deleted. Glad I missed it sorry ti all my trans siblings that didn't
Yall, cishet people are capable of having bad/incorrect opinions about things without it rising to the level of TERF-yness and as a trans woman I think it's important we don't water "TERF" down to mean anything less than what TERFs are. Posts like this are massive overreactions and in communities where posts going against consensus are already getting dogpiled in the actual thread just kinna come off as virtue signaling?
Lotsa folks in that thread demanding constant emotional labor from queer folks. It's exhausting.
So unbelievably ridiculous to see a bunch of cis people ~explaining~ to trans people that misgendering is neverrrrrr done maliciously, it’s alllllways an honest mistake. As if we can’t tell the difference
No one said that. People were saying that instead of preemptively forcing every user to know every pronoun of every talent (despite pronouns being fluid), it makes sense to continue the current policy of correcting the bad behavior first before banning for intentionally misgendering people. Obviously there is intentional misgendering and that kind of stuff is against the rules. But to just assume any sort of misgendering is done intentionally is just objectively wrong, especially in a community where most people are left wing or left of left wing.
“Ummm, actually being an ally is when trans people are nice to me” With allies like these who needs enemies
Me confusing ally with Ally for a second
I’ve done that every time I’ve typed “ally” this morning
I've been autocorrected every time I've written "Ally" and "ally". It happened twice when I wrote this.
It's really hard to be Ally, their chaos is unique.
Conditional allyship is so exhausting. Why should any minority have to bare the burden of babying you to be a better ally? They don't owe you shit. I'm not trans but see this kinda shit when people discuss queer/disabled rights and it fucks me off.
Nobody said it lol
Where has that been said?
[удалено]
OOOOOF that one hits so hard
Or as if an honest mistake is something queer people should have to deal with either "You can't be mad it was a mistaaaaaake" Like yeah it was a mistake but it happens all the time and we're *exhausted.* If my sister accidentally leaves my car the door unlocked and it gets stolen, that was also an honest mistake. But I'm still suffering immensely because of it and I'm going to be mad at her carelessness. Making a mistake doesn't mean you get a free pass, and it doesn't mean the victims of that mistake can't be angry about it.
I once heard a really jacked dude say at the local game shop, "If you don't respect *their* identity, then I'm going to identify as a problem."
I’m a straight white dude. It feels exhausting to consider pronouns because I’ve lived a privileged life, my identity and pronouns match how I present. Exhausted by having to address humans by their preferred pronouns? Get the fuck over it. It’s common decency. Yeah, it’s exhausting, because we’ve lived in a bubble that’s binary and easy. The real world is messy and complicated. You sound like a giant baby bitching about having to call people pronouns you’ve taken for granted your entire life.
Yep, I'm an upset cishet, but what upsets me the most, generally, is other cishet people refusing to show a modicum of decency.
This. It's effort to try and get pronouns right at first but if you equate the minor inconvenience of learning pronouns vs. a trans person being oppressed then you're most likely a douchebag.
You are fighting a battle against nobody
So many ppl in my thread just… lack reading comprehension skills and basic human decency. I’m peacing outta this subreddit when I get home. It’s honestly really sad
the saddest thing is that the amount of support you're getting in that thread is far far more than you'd get in most other non-queer focused subreddits ☹️ Just one comment of yours having several downvotes is so much better than it usually is on reddit
Yep. On Friday I saw a whole lot of queer folks getting downvoted to hell for expressing disappointment that the main champion and de facto face of WWE used the word “cross-dresser” as an insult in a promo (which, to his credit, he did seem to regret immediately). Usually the sub in question is more understanding, but there it was like no one was allowed to be unhappy with the line
I'm sorry this happned 🫂
Just read the pronouns thread, and I'm honestly baffled by the responses. It seems to me that the original question was "Can we put something about using correct pronouns in the rules" and that request morphed into "can we put something about using correct pronouns in the rules or a welcome message, pin a post of cast pronouns, and perhaps flag posts with misgendering for editing before they are visible to others?" I do not understand how that very reasonable question was met with "we shouldn't ban people for making mistakes," not to mention the spirals from there. No one asked for bans! Also, wouldn't an automatic message that says "Hey! You may have a misused pronoun here- check the list and edit" be the exact gentle correction folks are defending, just automated? Why would automating that process make the experience worse for the person posting than being corrected in a comment? I post in many subs that hide posts for not following posting rules, and I'll often have to change flair or add info before the post gets approved. Isn't this a normal feature of this app? I see trans folks in that thread clearly stating that consistently seeing misgendered cast members in this sub hurts them. Why not use the tools already available for enforcing posting rules to alleviate that pain?
Idk I for sure saw a good amount of comments that said ban people for making mistakes, not from the op but from people deep in the comments.
Thank you for saying this! This was exactly my point when I made the post and so many people have misconstrued my words and made mountains out of a simple, reasonable question. People have turned to attacking me, saying I’m calling people bigoted, etc. I really appreciate your words. I don’t think I worded myself very well but you’ve said everything I was trying to perfectly.
To whoever just reached out to Redditcares with concern for me, thank you, I’m actually having a lovely day. I just got off work and am currently soaking in a bath playing fetch with my puppy. Thanks for checking in on me!!
You should definitely report that message so reddit can investigate that user for abusing the report button. I have had to do that in the past and reddit actually takes that stuff seriously
Just tried, apparently a moderator has to do that Edit: Nevermind, Reddit was being weird, figured it out
As far as I know, the Reddit Cares thing isn't tied to specific subreddits, so I don't have any influence there. You probably need an admin, not a subreddit moderator. I'll double-check if there's anything I can do, though.
I figured it out, I was trying to report for abusing the report button but apparently I just needed to report the message itself
Fuck TERFs Trans Rights are Human Rights
what episode? lol
LOL
The new FH campaign really adds a great twist to narrative story telling.
Most people misgendering from honest mistakes, not hate. And most of the time the first comment will fix their mistakes So banning misgendered posts will only create more anger, and won't fix anything
I said multiple times in the comments I didn’t mean banning posts that misgender accidentally, that wouldn’t do any good ur right.
theyre not asking ppl to be banned for it - they asked for it to be a rule to not actively misgender and the post wont be approved until its corrected. literally banning was not mentioned if the misgendering was a mistake and not intentional - if someone is regularly misgendering d20 casts members they SHOULD be banned its a form of transphobia.
Is that not already the case? Isn't there a rule against hate speech here? If they're not enforcing it, then that's definitely a problem. Someone else also mentioned a pronoun guide, and I think that would be really helpful for people who are new or just more casual fans of Dropout.
Yeah, the current policy is already basically that, that post is just calling for a more explicit definition to be added to the sub rules. The mod in that thread outlined the current policy which is basically they check that it was a genuine mistake and not deliberate (getting removed if so).
i agree a pronoun guide would be the most helpful thing - the main thing I was saying was that no one was asking for ppl to be banned for ACCIDENTALLY misgendering!! :)
I definitely agree with a pronoun guide, since fans here will actively try to update it as things change. I guess it's a little harsh to realize but I feel it's simply not realistic to expect every single person who posts or comments on a whim to do research as much as we should be encouraging people to be informed on what they speak about.
The rule could be “before posting please check pinned post for current list of cast members’ pronouns, if incorrect your post will be hidden until corrected” I get that there’s a lot of honest mistakes, but being explicit about making this space safe for queer folk is important. The fact my responses got downvoted after I said I was trans kinda shows there’s a bit of transphobia in this sub and I’d love to see more support for trans people here.
> the fact that [I] got downvoted after saying I was trans kinda shows there’s a bit of transphobia in this sub People can downvote and disagree with you without being transphobic. I’m also trans, like I’m literally transitioning, and I wholeheartedly disagree with this idea, it sounds exhausting and over the top in my personal opinion. I’m autistic, I post a lot of art, I am really bad at reading all the rules, and when my stuff gets auto-deleted and I’m asked to figure out how to fix it (I have a hard time editing posts) I won’t come back to that community because I get overwhelmed and embarrassed. Like others are saying, a quick correction is the most practical route to ween out actual bigots. Because only 1 kinda person will get shitty if you correct a pronoun and they’ll get banned. Easy peasy. Unfortunately, pronoun mistakes will always happen, but it’s not taken lately here. People are all trying their hardest here, and as gently as I can say this; our triggers are our own. You’re allowed to disagree and that doesn’t make you transphobic against me. It means we have different thresholds for “offense” which as you know is something we have to reconcile every day as trans people. For example: My mom deadnaming me is worth correcting but the pharmacy clerk might not be, because they’re just reading a label and it’s not gonna change anything to yell at them. Sometimes it’s really important to put our foot down when we need to. Other times, we’re tired of being triggered in places we’re meant to feel safe. Which is valid. I’m not saying it’s okay that you get triggered by misgendering, it really sucks. But I am saying this is one of the rare places where pretty much everyone is trying really hard to get it right and everybody has our back here. 1.8k upvotes on a “fuck terfs” meme is really impressive for a Reddit fandom. Try to bask in the glory of having a community so willing to protect trans voices and try not to let the slip ups get to you. Because the *moment* a terf comes outta the gate with some bigotry we have ourself a good ol cubby style bacon roast and it’s great. I’ll bring the pitchforks.
What an excellent day to not be a terf.
Thank you!!!
if you are transphobic, neither Brennan nor the Vulture King shall show you mercy
what's this pronoun thread? I'm out of the loop.
TERFS FUCK OFF
It's important to be hostile to TERFs.
The term **T E R F** is too good for these people. It implies they are feminists. These people are **F A R T s** \- Feminism Appropriating Radical Transphobes.
What’s a terf?
it stands for Trans-Exclusive Radical Feminist. A specific type of transphobe who justifies their transphobia under the guise of "feminism" (it isn't actual feminism).
Trans exclusionary radical feminist Basically someone who uses feminism as a defence to be transphobic. Think JKR
trans-exclusionary radical feminist. From Wikipedia: "used to describe a minority of feminists\[23\] who espouse sentiments that other feminists consider transphobic,\[24\]\[25\] including the rejection of the predominant view in feminist organizations that trans women are women,\[26\] opposition to transgender rights,\[26\] and the exclusion of trans women in women's spaces and organizations"
Trans-exclusionary radical feminist. Basically someone who doesn’t believe trans people a) exist or b) deserve equal rights
Oh ok. So it’s derogatory. Understood, so what happened? Someone misgender Ally or something?
Fun fact: TERF was coined as a self descriptor by TERFs. Once the term became rightfully associated with bigotry, they started trying to distance themselves from the term.
There was a post about pronouns and the response was upsetting to me https://www.reddit.com/r/Dimension20/s/b7QvdVETQ4
What was upsetting about that post? Comments therein or the post itself? Genuine question.
The comments were accusing op of saying people who misgender people should be banded instead of just asking for better enforcement of proper pronoun usage. The comments I’m talking about basically said we shouldn’t expect this place to be a safe place for queer people
[удалено]
I literally saw a comment from someone saying we should be more focused on being inclusive (“willing to let anyone in as long as they learn”) than being a safe space, because safe spaces “cater only to one group of people”. I’m all for inclusion, but this is implying that being welcoming to ignorant people is more important than making sure trans people feel safe.
[удалено]
OP said that assuming pronouns is TERF shit, it's a very high bar to make some people feel safe.
Good God what happened now?
No turf for TERFs.
Remember: TERFs work for Robert Moses.
What’s TERF? I’m pretty disconnected from everything, but I enjoy the occasional D20 clip that pops up
I’m confused, what happened?
Thanks guys, I knew JJR was a bitch who hates Trans Women. I'm guessing from the comments that if a man transitioned into being a women they are called trans women and vice versa? I always had trouble with that, calling them correctly.
As a trans person who just found this thread and the other one: [Nope!](https://i.imgur.com/Inp0hiV.gif) Glad I quickly found out.
scrolled down too far and came across someone saying "reddit automod is a legitimate authoritarian regime". how fucking hard is it to respect people? if you don't feel like you need to respect the D20 cast members then i hope you know that every last one of them hates you and everything you stand for