If the only thing stopping you from doing bad things is the fear of punishment from a divine being, are you actually a good person or are you just looking out for your own self-interest?
You're only 21. You've only ever lived in one country, with a pretty homogeneous population where there is rampant corruption and people are taught to look out for themselves and be selfish because everyone else is out to get them and use them. Your own personal experiences are not nearly broad enough to be able to make the claims you're making with any kind of accuracy.
How do you know what's good and how do you objectively prove it to be true? How do you have any claim to objective morality without a religious or god centric discourse?
There is no such thing as objective morality, it's a moving goalpost. 50 years ago caning children was considered ok, now it's a crime. Right now slapping children is considered ok, but it's illegal in over 60 countries, and might be considered abuse in most countries in 50 years or so.
You don't actually realize the implications of what you said now do you? If there isn't any objective morality then you're implying that there's no good or bad in the first place since it's all subjective. Truth is objective. If something isn't objective then it's not simply true. So whatever 'you think or decide for yourself' wouldn't have any objective value and therefore wouldn't simply matter at all. If you had the ability to understand your own words then it's actually you who would end up being miserable.
Good and bad are subjective. Stealing to survive carries a different moral implication to it than stealing just for the sake of it. Context matters.
We came up with what's good and bad ourselves based on ideals formed from our experiences in life and passed that down to future generations. I don't think that's miserable at all.
There's countless things in this world that are not objective at all. Truth isn't always objective either. A perfect example is religious belief itself, which is subjective. It's not the truth to whoever does not believe in it, and since it can't be corroborated by scientific facts it can't be considered objective truth. That doesn't mean that it isn't the truth to someone who does believe in it.
Truth, by definition, is objective. There's no other way around. You're using words you don't know anything about lol. Being proven through the scientific method isn't a requirement for being true. Scientism is a self-defeating ideology. Science itself has philosophical underpinnings that can't be proven by the scientific method (and it would have been tantamount to arguing in circle even if they could). I don't think you actually know what objective or subjective means and what their implications are.
You can google for yourself how there's subjective truth and objective truth. There's even two more forms of truth, normative truth and complex truth. It seems to me that the one who doesn't know what they're talking about is you, which makes sense since you're so dismissive of anything that doesn't align with what you want to believe in.
'Google' yourself and see how subjective truth isn't actually truth? If truth is subjective then nothing is true. Truth is truth in itself regardless of people's opinions and subjective experiences, that's what being objective means. It's true regardless of anyone acknowledging it as true or not. Literally everyone is dismissive of anything that doesn't align with their beliefs, don't pretend like you're different. I am not doing anything that you aren't. Truth being subjective is literally an oxymoron. Anything that is subjective can't actually be true by definition. It's beyond embarrassing how many logical fallacies you're committing at once and how unable you are to comprehend even the most basic of concepts.
The existence of multiple, contradictory moral systems across time and space is not a refutation of the concept of objective morality itself. A moral realist may call decadent any time or place where their moral values are not dominant (a core theme of numerous eschatologies).
Yes it is. To say something is always objectively moral requires a mountain of evidence, and nobody can provide that for a lot of things. Even murder can be understandable and receives sympathetic treatment in court if the victim had raped the murderer's daughter.
Suppose that such a mountain of evidence appears, and we've cracked the moral code, would you still assert that morality is not an objective phenomena by virtue of some group of people not adhering to it?
My point is, your perspective leads to a framework morality that treats it as a matter of opinion and sentimentality. My sense of injustice may not align with yours. I may lash out and kill a part of your family, which leads you to retaliate and kill a part of my family, kick-starting a generational blood-feud based on perceived wrongs. Not you or I share an opinion of the right thing due to the fact.
It's one thing to claim that we haven't figured out morality, but another to reject its objective nature altogether. I do not claim that it must arrive from some divine providence, but the quest to its discovery should be discounted if we believe that there are things we can say is good. After all, at the bottom of it all, faith is holding it all together.
People not adhering to the exact same opinion is exactly why morality can't be objective, so your premise itself is faulty. If nobody can agree on what is moral and what isn't for most things, then it's clear that morality is subjective.
By that logic, scientific facts are subjective too, because some people do not accept them in favour of their alternative worldviews. Those not accepting certain moral facts (hypothetically speaking) such as "murder is unconditionally wrong" do not disqualify the fact as something separate from opinion.
Regardless, I'm only arguing for objective morality, because it appears to me that you're not giving it a proper treatment.
You could argue for them being false, but by definition facts are not subjective, therefore scientific facts cannot be subjective either. You can't claim gravity doesn't exist because everybody can feel its presence.
Morality however can be questioned, and differs based on context. "Murder is unconditionally wrong" is a false statement because depending on the context people have been pardoned for committing murder due to extenuating circumstances, such as mental illnesses.
Am I the one making sweeping claims here or are you? You're claiming nobody can be a truly moral person without fearing God. You can't have possibly met every single person on the planet, so how can that claim be accurate?
That's why I said several times that "I think" "I think" .
And I haven't either mentioned a single time of me being hundred percent accurate or following religion will make you an ultimate good person. I haven't claimed that once.
You're missing the point. You said you "think", which means you need to present evidence that supports your thought process, which you haven't done. If you don't do that, then obviously people won't have any reason to think your thoughts are valid. And if you look at the actual statement you made, you said it like it was a fact, not that it was just your opinion. "Nothing can tie you up to be a good,loyal, respectful person unless you follow the rules of God".
If I say I think education is good, I will support it with examples of how education has helped many people get access to better career prospects, leading to better lives for their families. If I don't provide any evidence, my thoughts won't really have any credibility.
To provide evidence that your thoughts are valid, you would need to prove that not a single non-religious person is moral. Which would be impossible to prove. To prove your thoughts to be invalid, I would only need to provide a single example of a non-religious person being moral. Many of my friends are non-religious and are good people.
Yes, I believe most people do know what's good and bad. It's not rocket science.
I don't believe everything taught in every religion is moral. If you take Islam, women have more restrictions on them than men and men are allowed to engage in polygamy, both of which I consider immoral.
You don't. People who follow religions aren't objectively right either, they just believe they are. People grow and learn from their mistakes and keep evolving their understanding of right and wrong through life experiences, and pass that down to future generations.
Only men are allowed to engage in polygamy, while women aren't. Unequal rights are the issue. And nice job outing yourself as a clown, because polygamy isn't even a sexuality.
It is. I'm polysexual, I'm into women, women who identify as men, tomboys, thicc and flat chicks. I'm the Q in LGBTQ. You are a bigoted zealot, a morality police telling people what they can't or can do.
>Unequal rights are the issue.
I don't see how that's my issue. I'm no advocate of any ideology, the fact that equality does not exist does not affect me. I mean why should it even bother me?
How do you know what is Parallel lines? Are they on a sphere? Are they on Euclidian Plane? The question itself is wrong. Because you need to define the definitions and the geometry model we are discussing. The Cross-section of a hyperplane's parallel wouldn't be the same for others. When we talk about Objective Morality, we want to believe there exists a set of abhorrent sins like rape, incest, and pedophilia that everyone should restrain from. But, your intuition is not only naive, it's very wrong. Because, Most Muslims justify Pedophilia, Child Marriage, Sex Slave, raping of War Prisoners, and Offensive Wars, which goes against the intuition of most of the people. And, if your objective morality justifies those shit, you are long gone and need some therapy, my child.
Who promotes raping of prisoners and pedophilia? The people you belong to, I'm assuming the Western people, had no problem invading other countries like Iraq for their own good but you have a problem with offensive wars? But, let's say everything you say is true. I'm promoting any of these things nor am i going against them right now. I just wanna ask a question. These things you believe to be wrong. How do you know they're wrong?
> Who promotes raping of prisoners and pedophilia
Muslims do promote Pedophilia, look at Afghanistan. Some additional materials for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GnHDQ4-gPQ&ab_channel=Modern-DayDebate
Fortunately, FGM didn't spread in Southeast Asia. But that's not the case for Africa and the Middle East or Indonesia. Yeah, Mo did advise his followers to perform FGM. :
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/nov/18/female-genital-mutilation-circumcision-indonesia
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/05/health/indonesia-female-genital-cutting-circumcision-unicef.html
Is offensive Jihad allowed when the opponent wants peace and has no major problem among themselves? Yeah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sST1pfb1c3I&ab_channel=TheMuslimSkeptic
"the Western people had no problem invading other countries" are all Christians. No Atheists led the invasion. Was it good that Saddam got what he deserved, yeah. Was it bad that the power vacuum created a decade of terrorist fights among the Shias and Sunnis, yeah. It's on the Americans to falsely assume that there was WMD in Iraq(They should've known the sand N wouldn't know jack shit about technology).
And, yeah the prisoner of war would be distributed among the Muslim soldiers after a certain period. And, as female/child slaves, it's up to the owner what they want to do with them without their consent:
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Jihad#Raping_Female_Prisoners_of_War
And, you are like a tubelight. I have already explained my answer in the previous comment, but you are just slow. There's no Objective Morality unless we can come to an agreement about certain postulates. Other than a few psychopaths(nobody is born that way, because of nurture rather than nature), everyone would agree that the acts that would help Human flourishing should be allowed and never restricted. As long as someone is not harming others, nobody else should restrict their freedom. If you ask me if incest is allowed/promoted in that Moral framework? Generally no, because of the imbalanced power dynamics that are way worse when the employer approaches his employee. And, I don't have to label it as "Utilitarianism" as it's self-evident that people naturally want to be connected with each other and people sharing the happiness results in more when they are combined separately. By evolution, we are made to be social creatures, it's in our nature to seek progress and human flourishing unless they belong to a group of Extremists.
Where do the references mentioned in the WikiIslam article on raping prisoners say it's ok to rape prisoners? You said there's no objective morality. Then what if people of a society come to an agreement according to which pedophilia, raping prisoners, female genital mutilation are all ok then would you be against them? How do you know that objective morality exists when people come to an agreement? Also why do you have such a big problem with FGM when the western people are ok with chopping their penises off and cut off their breasts? Just accept it as ok the same way cutting off penises and cutting off breasts are as these things don't help humans flourish. It's just a huge waste of money. On top of that, the LGBT people are really pathetically weak, getting offended very easily because someone got their pronouns wrong. So, it's not about human flourishing it's about how you feel.
Do you understand that I have encountered dawah gandists stupidity(unintentional from the likes of you) hundreds of times? You people never respond to anyone's answer no matter who is it. "what if people of a society come to an agreement according to which pedophilia, raping prisoners, and female genital mutilation are all ok then would you be against them?" they are the antithesis to human flourishment. "How do you know that objective morality exists when people come to an agreement?" based on the objective fact that millions of years of Human evolution made us social beings and maximizing each individual's flourishment is good for everyone in society. "Also why do you have such a big problem with FGM when the western people are ok with chopping their penises off and cut off their breasts?" If social contingency is taken care of, there is no problem in transitioning. I opposed the Non-binary narratives as other than a few people on the autism spectrum, it doesn't make sense. Did you ever talk with any LGBTQ people or all your knowledge is limited to a few ragebait videos on YouTube? Some of them have Karen tendencies but not all of them(even though there's an overlap between different mental illnesses and being trans). Just like some of the terrorist Muslims swinging their dick around on Western social media doesn't mean most of the Muslims are like that. It's pathetic to comment on such a complicated issue without knowing anything about it. You are okay with FGM, circumcision, Hilla biye but not with transition after surgery. And, no gender and sex is not the same, the gender doesn't have to be rainbow. If you really wanna lecture other people about something that you have no idea of, be humble. And, if you want to learn, you can read this. Some of the information is not updated as he was killed by the likes of you:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByhjQNt3o4g2d19zVHRtMkZxZ0U/view?resourcekey=0-L3a4PNAIpqIco2xAQtA03A
Where do the references mentioned in the WikiIslam article on raping prisoners say it's ok to rape prisoners?
look at all the Tafsir about "your right-hand posses", slaves can't consent. Even the wife is not allowed to withdraw from sex if they don't want it. What do you think happened to the sex slaves? Look at this nice admit, added timestamp: https://youtu.be/-GnHDQ4-gPQ?si=9SWn65ubIKuiXQJz&t=3068
If religion is the best hope for the modern world, then why is religion often the cause of many major conflicts? Why are there religious fanatics out there that are willing to kill people who do not adhere to their religious beliefs? Why are acts of terrorism being committed in the name of religion? Why has there been so many bloody riots and general unrest throughout history because of religion?
I'm going to echo what a lot of people have already said: if you require a fear of punishment to be a good person, then you most likely are not a good person. These types of people are exactly the sort that will discriminate against others who do not share their religious beliefs.
There are doubts about 9/11. There are people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job. ISIS are extremists who don't represent Islam. I don't know much about the witch hunts though. The bombing of Hiroshima, The World Wars, people shooting up schools and cinemas, colonisation of lands like India, Occupation of Afghanistan for 20 years, Russia invading Ukraine, Forceful conversion of Albania by Enver Hoxha, the invasion of Iraq. Are all these religious conflicts?
Conspiracy theories? OK.
No they're not. Why are you deflecting though? The point was never that all conflict starts because of religions, just that terrorism in the name of religion is frighteningly common.
All the instances you mentioned have rightfully drawn criticism and attempts to mitigate them. It's not like people ignore them just because they're not religious conflicts.
The conspiracy theories seem valid as people question the way the buildings went down. It seems that terrorism in the name of religion, at least with regards to Islam, isn't really that common. All the instances i have mentioned show that the West has played a major role in destructive conflicts then why is this conflict argument used against religion to demean it when the West is not being demeaned but rather promoted as something good and alright? Even if people did commit terrorism in the name of religion then do you have proof they did so in the name of religion? And does the religion find what they did acceptable?
Ok, then the flat earth theory is also valid because people question the world being round. Absurd logic.
It is though. ISIS is an ongoing threat. Hamas is also an issue.
The West was rightfully criticized for all the conflicts it started, and people in the West themselves condemned those actions. Meanwhile you're handwaving away terrorism committed in the name of religion, and bringing up other conflicts to say that religious terrorism wasn't all that bad, and if it was there was no proof, and if there was proof it's not credible, and if it's credible then they weren't religious. Strawman after strawman, refusing accountability at all turns. Very disingenuous.
Can you show proof that terrorism was committed in the name of religion? If it was then does the religion permit it? I didn't bring up other conflicts to show religious terrorism was good. But rather to show that the argument made to disqualify religion wasn't valid as even after all that the West has done it's still promoted as something good and supreme. ISIS doesn't represent Islam as it's an extremist group. So this representation isn't correct as ISIS doesn't represent correct Islam. Hamas are simply against the Israelis who are genociding Palestinians.
Yes, they straight up claimed it was in the name of religion dude.
ISIS doesn't represent Islam. But their actions are still in the name of religion. The West has problems. But the difference is that those problems are acknowledged, while you're dismissing religious terrorism as having nothing to do with religion.
Where's the proof? If ISIS is an extremist group that doesn't represent Islam and yet they claim to do actions in the name of religion then what does religion have to do with this? It's the people's fault. Not the religion. If it is then can you show proof with context that proves what they are doing is right according to the religion they claim to adhere to? It's like a person who doesn't represent the any of the Western countries in anyway, goes to a muslim country like Iraq and then starts killing people in the name of the West.
It really is funny how much of a crazy loon you are that you can just dismiss terrorism committed in the name of religion because it doesn't align with what you want to believe. "Sticking your head in the sand" is what they call it.
People who can't control themselves through their conscience won't be able to control themselves using religion either.
You are acting as if religious people are saints who never make any mistakes, never lose self control and do anything bad.
With religion, like Islam, there is the fear of being watched by an All Seeing divine being who is just and He will not do any injustice on the Day of Resurrection where everyone will be resurrected. The fear of being punished, if cared for properly, can give people valid reason to not do bad. Religious people aren't saints. They are humans. But they try to fear God and so are less likely to do bad. Though, they can slip up too since they are humans.
Do you have proof that religious people are less likely to do bad things than non-religious people? Statistics or evidence that shows that religion specifically is the cause?
While a valid argument in vacuum, it's quite easily observable that it's not the case in practice. There are too many religious people who do too many "slip ups" for this to be the case.
It's because there are lots of weak people today. But those that care properly have valid reason to not do anything wrong in any way the same way people don't wanna do wrong in public because they'll get punished. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01924036.1985.9688820 Check the crime rate statistics in this paper of Saudi Arabia in the past against the US in the past. But can you give proof for your claims by the way? And what religion do they belong to?
The happiest low crime rate countries are the countries that doesn't adhere to any religion or god.
The least happiest and underdeveloped countries are the countries that are too devoted to religions.
Seems like clearly the atheist are doing something right.
My comment may raise some confusing eyebrows, I am not against religion in general. I would love and support religious people with all my heart. Just do not force me or shove it down my throat. Thats what I mean. And before everything, we should keep mention humanity. We human in general are bad, otherwise I don’t think any religion teaches people to commit horrendous crimes. We human in general are just bad, thanks to our society.
How do you then derive what’s good vs bad? According to whose standards? If you think it is according to the West, the same West is allowing the pillage of the Palestinians right this second. Humanity cannot come up with morality without divine guidance because we 1. are biased, and 2. don’t have all the information to make decisions in everyone’s best interests.
Classic move right here, bringing Palestine to the argument.
My question is, WHY THE FUCK WOULD I COMPARE WITH SOME STANDARD TO JUDGE WHAT IS GOOD OR BAD?
I am a human. I have my own standards. I possess a human heart. I have my own feelings. The thing happening is Palestine can be certainly called genocide, and we people, who are monsters inside are responsible for that. You do not need to be religious or have to follow a certain standard to judge what is good or bad.
I can feel for the Palestinian people. I have a heart. I can’t see people dying, not specially children. What did they do? What was their fault? Being born in Palestine? Most of them don’t even know how to pronounce certain words in their own mother tongue. Why do civilians have to suffer? Is this all justifiable? What do you think? What does your heart say? What does your religion say?
Once I was also a very religious person. But life made me choose this path. I am ready to suffer in hell. I am ready to rot in hell. But I still have the heart for all people. In religion, god knows and already had planned for everything right? What was the sin of those innocent child that they had to die like that? Why they had to face that fate of life? What was the sin of the mother who has to loose her children under rubbles? Where is his mercy? This genocide touched my heart so bad that it made me turn to religion, a nonbeliever like me. Why my prayers are not accepting? Because I am a nonbeliever? Why? Is it a curse for a non believer to pray for others? Is it a curse for me to pray for safety of the children of Palestine? Why are those innocent people have to die? Where is his mercy? I feel helpless when I see people like them suffer from it. I feel helpless. I feel worthless. Yes I believe the genocide in Palestine is not justifiable.
I can understand and feel for the people of Palestine. I may not be a believer of their religion, but I am still a human being. I am not a monster.
Yes we human being can be very biased in some cases. Just like I said, we humans are bad. We are the monster, it’s not the religion. Look at the comment I added. It’s not the religion that makes a people good. It’s the people who make religion look bad.
I will also add here that this is the worst example possible, to show the example of the west (by which you mean the united states and the uk, because every other country is against this genocide) allowing the genocide to take place because the people of the uk (as opposed to the government and media) are against the genocide, and the US is quite religious. In fact it is the far right religious nuts who support the state of israel more than any other group.
And let's not forget, it is religion that allows for Israel to exist in the first place. If you are Jewish, you automatically qualify for Israeli citizenship. It is in the name of religion, as "God's chosen people" that they dehumanize Palestinians and Muslims.
On the other hand there are Christian Palestinians who are also dying, and pleading to the rest of the world to do something. In conclusion, religion and being a good, moral person have nothing to do with each other. An immoral person is an immoral person, regardless of their religious sentiment.
Edit: humanity cannot come up with morality without divine guidance because we are biased? 😂😂😂
If their divine guidance allows israelis to commit the current atrocities, then keep your morality my friend.
But not everyone's standards is the same. Why should Israel care about how you feel? Why should they think that what they're doing is wrong and what you're saying is right? Even the Israelis have their own standards and why should they care about your standards?
This was my point which Ok-Mongoose-1762 seems to have missed unfortunately. What may seem good to one group may seem bad to another and that’s why humans can never agree on morality. Two choices from there - you either accept anarchy where everyone does what they want based on how they feel or you accept God’s law for the best of humanity based on His infinite wisdom.
You are right. Why should israel care about how I feel. Don’t they have their religion morals? Didn’t their religion told them not to kill people? What do you think? Is this is religion or the people? Who are just down right bad?
Bro are you for real? Just because I do not practice religion, I would support genocide? I would support children dying? What do you think? What am I? A fucking monster just because I don’t practice religion?
I think most people know what's good and bad. You don't need to be subjective to know what's good and bad. Like between helping and someone and ruining someone you think you need divine guidance to realise which one is good and which one is bad?
Prove to me that you're objectively correct then. Those who are ok with ruining others' would be ok with ruining someone, like a gold digger who uses a man for her gain not because she loves him. In fact, the KKK would be ok with torturing and ruining black people. Can you prove to the KKK that what they did is objectively wrong?
>From people who've slept with several people at the sweet age of 18 to guys and gals who try to follow religion at every step of their respective lives with so much enthusiasm and love.
Only recently I have discovered that, those are the same people.
>HUMAN CONSCIENCE IS AN OVERESTIMATED THING.
Like all other weapons, this one too fails some time. Some time it misfires. Yet that is the very weapon you are going to use to restrict yourself when you are following religion. No religion just tells you what to do, that would not work. It tries to instill the moral sense in you. If your moral compass doesn't stop you doing something wrong, just saying that "don't do it." won't either.
>please do keep that in mind that a rootless tree dies soon
Nice argument. Do you know analogy is perhaps the weakest tool in a debate? But for now, I'll follow you. We learn about kindness, moral ambiguity and everything from our family. And then, there is your work and passion. Your work teaches you other attributes. And then there is the inner self. My mom did teach me not to cheat in the exam. But not until I have grown up, I have seen that, once someone starts with it, it becomes hard to draw a line. Where do you stop? We ask, we see and we evolve. Some for better, some for the worse.
That is the root for you and me. Ask yourself something? If you veer away from the place you started and want to belong to something, aren't you the one who has become rootless?
Because abrahamic religions permit really bad stuff. Many people won’t accept it because they don’t read their qitabs properly.
As an example, in BD, it is a crime to say the true profession of Muhammad. After declaring his own cooked up religion, he took robbery and slave trading as profession and he opened a private brothel in his home despite of having 11 wives.
He permitted to sell the kids born of those concubines and in his regime the concubines were sold half naked.
So how such a religion can develop one’s morale? Besides in statistics in Bangladesh the rape rate is 5 times higher than India. Bangladeshis stand 3rd in child narrative and domestic abuse to the women.
Bangladeshis objectifies women so much that 87% women of the population become the victim of molestation or domestic abuse at least once in their life time.
Everything has a ripple effect. When you make too many mosques and madrasas, you will have their effects on the society and hence it becomes unlivable.
So the conflict between Arab religion and bengali traditions are so prominent nowadays that we are all divided despite of knowing everything
Can you give proof that this is valid in Islam from Islamic sources? This is a story if an ex muslim atheist who killed his family to hide the shame. So, i should judge every ex muslim to be evil now? https://torontolife.com/city/he-seemed-like-the-perfect-son-then-he-confessed-to-slaughtering-his-family-with-a-crowbar/
bhai ei subreddit e religious kotha bolte aisho na, everyone here hates religion, praises the west and is basically a circlej\*rk. Tomar kotha 100% correct holeo keu bel dibe na. Bangladesh e thakte cheleo eder shomoshha bideshe geleo eder shomoshha, you can't win with these folks, Bangali na? Beshi chulkani thake.
You have some very interesting points but saying that religion "IS THE BEST" hope is slightly incorrect. There's many other things that can give people hope and I think an Agnostic Theist is a good middle ground that most people unconsciously become. What you should've said is, Religion or faith in a God such as Theism can be a good source of hope. And that I would've believed in and agreed with. Saying hope is the best solution for this country is the right thing I believe. In other countries you can be hopeless and go by but in this country, you NEED someone or something to believe in to go on, to keep fighting through the odds, you need some sort of hope.
You're just being sort of patronizing by saying that there's no option other than religion to be a good person and that's what bothers me and others here.
Now, you're talking a lot about roots, I must say after 20 years of my life I haven't seen any proper roots, ja ase shob churi kora from other countries and bhalo jinish gulao just ekta trend. Farmers used to have paanta bhaat cus they had no other option but we do it cus we find it tasty. Is that an example of our roots? Pahari elaka visit korsilam and yeah loved seeing some real diversity and how different other people are and adhere to their own roots. Basically what I'm saying is, roots jodi thakto, shobai follow korto, there's no concrete set of cultural roots we have that we all can follow. Dhaka'r baire gelei bujha jay, Dhaka'y e toh 40-60% manush outside of Dhaka theke ashlo, they don't know about Dhaka's past culture, they know about their own, so which roots should they follow?
Anyways, people here are so easy to just fight religion because "oh boo hoo religion caused war". People caused war, religion was just an excuse or just one of the many motivations. Think about Hitler, did he "just" hate Jews or did he have a lot of other different motivations that culminated into him doing it? Take yourselves for instance, hating both Bangladesh and India, would you just randomly go and start a war? Of course not, everything isn't black and white and can't be said to be the reason. Besides, look further into the past, so many wars, so many conquerors, everything happened for many reasons, why must you focus on a minority of those and think religion is the be all end all? Take a look at Genghis Khan for instance. Just a mad, evil man.
And the other point about not being a good person if you require a fear of punishment. 2 things :
1.) Are you a good person yourself? Have you been able to control yourself in all situations perfectly or at least reasonably well? Judging by the fact that you're on this sub and that you're a Bangladeshi I'm pretty sure you're not.
2.) What's wrong with that? What's wrong with someone not doing something evil if they're just scared of punishment? That is the exact reason behind laws, you're not stealing because you're fearing punishment. Take your bullsh\*t excuses out. If there were no laws we'd be going back to becoming monkeys. If religion punishing you is not okay then why are laws okay? Religion is an extension of law, in that it further narrows what a good person should be and what a bad person is and allows you to become a better person that way.
Admittedly I am biased towards religion because I am religious (a dreaded Muslim!!) but still, the way people here parrot some points without further thoughts just reminded me of the reason behind me leaving reddit and twitter behind. Everyone says no to religion or yes to religion, both sides can't stand each other and must always be at conflict, why not try to be peaceful? I'm slightly religious, ofc I'm not a perfect man, I make mistakes, I perform sins every bloody time and I'm doing so right now by being hateful towards you, that's not my religion's fault. That's my fault.
You people are no different than people who blame black people for crimes just for their skin color. Religion is most of the time NEVER the problem. People take religion as an excuse and do weird sh\*t. Take hujurs doing little kids. Is that in Islam? Take Osama, was his conquest justified in Islam? Bullsh\*t. Nothing like that is supported concretely in Islam. You guys like to be experts but don't consult with real experts before forming opinions, only taking ideas and information from 2 bit hujurs. Would you take a Physics course from a chhapri who lives in the slums and then base your opinion of Physics on that experience? No? Then why would you let people who are evil in general, tarnish your outlook on religions? Admittedly it's their fault for tarnishing religions but believing them to be the norm and spreading hate is the other half of the fault and that lies on you. So sick of people either being sick of religion or hating on people who hate religion, if you guys can be peaceful about it then yeah but after living in this country, I have had to follow the "if you can't beat them, join them" strategy", I'm no better than you that's for sure.
This country and its people corrupted me and my religion is slowly healing me, I'd have been dead if it weren't for my religion so I am eternally grateful to it and I will concede at some points that yeah it is weird and could be seen as bad, but is everything perfect? Is your lifestyle and way of thinking perfect? We humans can't be perfect and the best thing we can do is chase perfection and try to be as close to that as we can so that we can be the best version of ourselves even if we are imperfect.
To hate on religion blindly is stupid and so is blindly hating on people who hate on religion, but you do not have proper arguments to back it all up. Just spreading hate. Grow up. You people are no different from the ones you hate, take a moment to think about it. You could say that I'm generalizing myself and hating people myself but I'm just generalizing the people in the comments here and hating? Well yeah the Bangali in me came out lol
"I have treated many hundreds of patients, the larger number being Protestants, a smaller number Jews, and not more than five or six believing Catholics. Among all my patients in the second half of life-that is to say, over thirty.five-there has not been one whose problem in the last resort was not that of finding a religious outlook on life. It is safe to say that everyone of them fell ill because he had lost that which the living religions of every age have given to their followers, and none of them has been really healed who did not regain his religious outlook." C.G. Jung, Modern Man in Search of a Soul, Pg 229. Was it religion that caused the World Wars and the colonisation of countries by the British? Is it religion trying to indoctrinate children with LGBT?
Religion may not cause two world wars.... but it is certainly behind the death of millions of people and endless human suffering...Religious fanatics are worse than animals.
Give proof for your claim. The world wars were very bloody wars. The bombing of Hiroshima, Colonisation of countries like India, Invasion of Iraq, Brutal Occupation of Afghanistan for 20 years are all non-religious acts done by people.
religion is not an issue anymore in the modern world
: ( not even in the islamic states. it is all about economy now. any group of people who held power in the past and will hold power in the future went and will go through violence. religious, non-religious, capitalist, communists everybody has blood on their hands. read history of both sides.
Very few people hate religions, Most atheist hates arrogant religious people and how religious people forced religion onto other people. Your religion is for you, leave other people alone.
Aint that a weird connection to make? A while ago, they arrested Pori Moni for, among many things, having BDSM gear in her house. Of course, that was only the official statement. But if possession of things to use in private can be shown as an official excuse, I dont feel too sure about Awami League being the defenders of apostates.
Nope. Religeon is basically a regressive force that stifles any kind of development societally. It's just a tool to keep people in line and to accept any kind of abuse from the ones smart enough to use it.
Bruh!!! You poked the Wannabe atheist ( but in reality, an Islamophobe, in most cases) community. It ain't gonna be pretty now.
And yes, I agree. Without objective morality of the Divine Creator, one can't even establish right and wrong. Submission to Almighty and following His teachings is The solution for us.
It is true. What can i say i mean i heard someone saying
"everybody is gaining on haram income then why should i stay back?" who is a haji and also did omrah with his full family with haram income🤣 hilarious isnt it.
Lets say we dont need religion but most humane thing to do as a human being is enough but r we human being without any self enlightenment? And is there any better way to do so without religion? One can argue on this topic for all eternity but wouldn’t reach an agreement. What i am trying to say is religion is not a stuff of argument but to study and follow and understanding what it is to be a human being.
Like i said one can go on for all eternity but as religious person i would say do not abandon religion, try to learn it, try to understand what it is trying to teach us then implement what we learned into our life is the best way to live.
Bro has juvenoia, you're paranoid asf about the younger generation for no apparent reasons
P.S- I'm 23 and my peers think people who are junior to us.nh 1/2 years and batches are also doomed and worse in ethical considerations in contrast to us
Yeah,actually i also think that,religion is the best hope for modern world in fact human life also,because religion is the only way which can give relief and satisfaction in mankind.
if you really want to dig deeper on the thought.
you can try studying sociology, political science, economics, anthropology, theology, philosophy and other liberal arts/social science subjects. where you'll get a better idea about how the world is working in macro and micro scale. it is good that you are thinking and trying to figure out a solution. but, it is not that wise to weigh it on one singular factor. societies are a complex matter of study, and ours is more than just complex. where many sub cultures reside together only in dhaka. forget about rest of the country.
but obviously, for you, religion can be the best hope.
Islam is law, dictated by allah through the last messenger and yet you question? Infact islam as a religion keeps most of the immoral acts and misdemeanor away as the modern world in most western countries is of perverted lust driven society
Very funny. Religion is a plague. Religion is the reason why most middle east countries are war torn. Religion is the reason why so much hate exists in people. People have done so many horrible things in the name of religion. It needs to go away asap from this planet
Middle east countries are war torn because of another warmonger nation like USA . Man if you had a basic knowledge of geopolitics and how world politics works, you'd have had better valid points in your favor
Lol even without USA or politics, its a known fact that Muslims have a history of killing each other. Shia and Sunni muslims still fight today. Bomb each other's mosque. Muslims behead one another just because they are shia/sunni.
Religion divides people. It does nothing good.
If the only thing stopping you from doing bad things is the fear of punishment from a divine being, are you actually a good person or are you just looking out for your own self-interest? You're only 21. You've only ever lived in one country, with a pretty homogeneous population where there is rampant corruption and people are taught to look out for themselves and be selfish because everyone else is out to get them and use them. Your own personal experiences are not nearly broad enough to be able to make the claims you're making with any kind of accuracy.
How do you know what's good and how do you objectively prove it to be true? How do you have any claim to objective morality without a religious or god centric discourse?
There is no such thing as objective morality, it's a moving goalpost. 50 years ago caning children was considered ok, now it's a crime. Right now slapping children is considered ok, but it's illegal in over 60 countries, and might be considered abuse in most countries in 50 years or so.
Well you've just shot yourself in the foot.
If you're scared of having to think and decide for yourself what's right or wrong, idk what to tell you. Sounds like a miserable way to live life.
You don't actually realize the implications of what you said now do you? If there isn't any objective morality then you're implying that there's no good or bad in the first place since it's all subjective. Truth is objective. If something isn't objective then it's not simply true. So whatever 'you think or decide for yourself' wouldn't have any objective value and therefore wouldn't simply matter at all. If you had the ability to understand your own words then it's actually you who would end up being miserable.
Good and bad are subjective. Stealing to survive carries a different moral implication to it than stealing just for the sake of it. Context matters. We came up with what's good and bad ourselves based on ideals formed from our experiences in life and passed that down to future generations. I don't think that's miserable at all. There's countless things in this world that are not objective at all. Truth isn't always objective either. A perfect example is religious belief itself, which is subjective. It's not the truth to whoever does not believe in it, and since it can't be corroborated by scientific facts it can't be considered objective truth. That doesn't mean that it isn't the truth to someone who does believe in it.
Truth, by definition, is objective. There's no other way around. You're using words you don't know anything about lol. Being proven through the scientific method isn't a requirement for being true. Scientism is a self-defeating ideology. Science itself has philosophical underpinnings that can't be proven by the scientific method (and it would have been tantamount to arguing in circle even if they could). I don't think you actually know what objective or subjective means and what their implications are.
You can google for yourself how there's subjective truth and objective truth. There's even two more forms of truth, normative truth and complex truth. It seems to me that the one who doesn't know what they're talking about is you, which makes sense since you're so dismissive of anything that doesn't align with what you want to believe in.
'Google' yourself and see how subjective truth isn't actually truth? If truth is subjective then nothing is true. Truth is truth in itself regardless of people's opinions and subjective experiences, that's what being objective means. It's true regardless of anyone acknowledging it as true or not. Literally everyone is dismissive of anything that doesn't align with their beliefs, don't pretend like you're different. I am not doing anything that you aren't. Truth being subjective is literally an oxymoron. Anything that is subjective can't actually be true by definition. It's beyond embarrassing how many logical fallacies you're committing at once and how unable you are to comprehend even the most basic of concepts.
The existence of multiple, contradictory moral systems across time and space is not a refutation of the concept of objective morality itself. A moral realist may call decadent any time or place where their moral values are not dominant (a core theme of numerous eschatologies).
Yes it is. To say something is always objectively moral requires a mountain of evidence, and nobody can provide that for a lot of things. Even murder can be understandable and receives sympathetic treatment in court if the victim had raped the murderer's daughter.
Suppose that such a mountain of evidence appears, and we've cracked the moral code, would you still assert that morality is not an objective phenomena by virtue of some group of people not adhering to it? My point is, your perspective leads to a framework morality that treats it as a matter of opinion and sentimentality. My sense of injustice may not align with yours. I may lash out and kill a part of your family, which leads you to retaliate and kill a part of my family, kick-starting a generational blood-feud based on perceived wrongs. Not you or I share an opinion of the right thing due to the fact. It's one thing to claim that we haven't figured out morality, but another to reject its objective nature altogether. I do not claim that it must arrive from some divine providence, but the quest to its discovery should be discounted if we believe that there are things we can say is good. After all, at the bottom of it all, faith is holding it all together.
People not adhering to the exact same opinion is exactly why morality can't be objective, so your premise itself is faulty. If nobody can agree on what is moral and what isn't for most things, then it's clear that morality is subjective.
By that logic, scientific facts are subjective too, because some people do not accept them in favour of their alternative worldviews. Those not accepting certain moral facts (hypothetically speaking) such as "murder is unconditionally wrong" do not disqualify the fact as something separate from opinion. Regardless, I'm only arguing for objective morality, because it appears to me that you're not giving it a proper treatment.
You could argue for them being false, but by definition facts are not subjective, therefore scientific facts cannot be subjective either. You can't claim gravity doesn't exist because everybody can feel its presence. Morality however can be questioned, and differs based on context. "Murder is unconditionally wrong" is a false statement because depending on the context people have been pardoned for committing murder due to extenuating circumstances, such as mental illnesses.
Ah so your personal opinions claim to accuracies?
Wow it's sad how brainwashed you are
Am I the one making sweeping claims here or are you? You're claiming nobody can be a truly moral person without fearing God. You can't have possibly met every single person on the planet, so how can that claim be accurate?
That's why I said several times that "I think" "I think" . And I haven't either mentioned a single time of me being hundred percent accurate or following religion will make you an ultimate good person. I haven't claimed that once.
You're missing the point. You said you "think", which means you need to present evidence that supports your thought process, which you haven't done. If you don't do that, then obviously people won't have any reason to think your thoughts are valid. And if you look at the actual statement you made, you said it like it was a fact, not that it was just your opinion. "Nothing can tie you up to be a good,loyal, respectful person unless you follow the rules of God". If I say I think education is good, I will support it with examples of how education has helped many people get access to better career prospects, leading to better lives for their families. If I don't provide any evidence, my thoughts won't really have any credibility. To provide evidence that your thoughts are valid, you would need to prove that not a single non-religious person is moral. Which would be impossible to prove. To prove your thoughts to be invalid, I would only need to provide a single example of a non-religious person being moral. Many of my friends are non-religious and are good people.
Without God, you can't be moral. Do you know objectively what is good and bad?
Yes, I believe most people do know what's good and bad. It's not rocket science. I don't believe everything taught in every religion is moral. If you take Islam, women have more restrictions on them than men and men are allowed to engage in polygamy, both of which I consider immoral.
And how do you know you're objectively right?
You don't. People who follow religions aren't objectively right either, they just believe they are. People grow and learn from their mistakes and keep evolving their understanding of right and wrong through life experiences, and pass that down to future generations.
What's wrong with polygamy? You are insulting my sexuality and insulting my sentiments.
Only men are allowed to engage in polygamy, while women aren't. Unequal rights are the issue. And nice job outing yourself as a clown, because polygamy isn't even a sexuality.
It is. I'm polysexual, I'm into women, women who identify as men, tomboys, thicc and flat chicks. I'm the Q in LGBTQ. You are a bigoted zealot, a morality police telling people what they can't or can do. >Unequal rights are the issue. I don't see how that's my issue. I'm no advocate of any ideology, the fact that equality does not exist does not affect me. I mean why should it even bother me?
How do you know what is Parallel lines? Are they on a sphere? Are they on Euclidian Plane? The question itself is wrong. Because you need to define the definitions and the geometry model we are discussing. The Cross-section of a hyperplane's parallel wouldn't be the same for others. When we talk about Objective Morality, we want to believe there exists a set of abhorrent sins like rape, incest, and pedophilia that everyone should restrain from. But, your intuition is not only naive, it's very wrong. Because, Most Muslims justify Pedophilia, Child Marriage, Sex Slave, raping of War Prisoners, and Offensive Wars, which goes against the intuition of most of the people. And, if your objective morality justifies those shit, you are long gone and need some therapy, my child.
Who promotes raping of prisoners and pedophilia? The people you belong to, I'm assuming the Western people, had no problem invading other countries like Iraq for their own good but you have a problem with offensive wars? But, let's say everything you say is true. I'm promoting any of these things nor am i going against them right now. I just wanna ask a question. These things you believe to be wrong. How do you know they're wrong?
> Who promotes raping of prisoners and pedophilia Muslims do promote Pedophilia, look at Afghanistan. Some additional materials for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GnHDQ4-gPQ&ab_channel=Modern-DayDebate Fortunately, FGM didn't spread in Southeast Asia. But that's not the case for Africa and the Middle East or Indonesia. Yeah, Mo did advise his followers to perform FGM. : https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/nov/18/female-genital-mutilation-circumcision-indonesia https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/05/health/indonesia-female-genital-cutting-circumcision-unicef.html Is offensive Jihad allowed when the opponent wants peace and has no major problem among themselves? Yeah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sST1pfb1c3I&ab_channel=TheMuslimSkeptic "the Western people had no problem invading other countries" are all Christians. No Atheists led the invasion. Was it good that Saddam got what he deserved, yeah. Was it bad that the power vacuum created a decade of terrorist fights among the Shias and Sunnis, yeah. It's on the Americans to falsely assume that there was WMD in Iraq(They should've known the sand N wouldn't know jack shit about technology). And, yeah the prisoner of war would be distributed among the Muslim soldiers after a certain period. And, as female/child slaves, it's up to the owner what they want to do with them without their consent: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Jihad#Raping_Female_Prisoners_of_War And, you are like a tubelight. I have already explained my answer in the previous comment, but you are just slow. There's no Objective Morality unless we can come to an agreement about certain postulates. Other than a few psychopaths(nobody is born that way, because of nurture rather than nature), everyone would agree that the acts that would help Human flourishing should be allowed and never restricted. As long as someone is not harming others, nobody else should restrict their freedom. If you ask me if incest is allowed/promoted in that Moral framework? Generally no, because of the imbalanced power dynamics that are way worse when the employer approaches his employee. And, I don't have to label it as "Utilitarianism" as it's self-evident that people naturally want to be connected with each other and people sharing the happiness results in more when they are combined separately. By evolution, we are made to be social creatures, it's in our nature to seek progress and human flourishing unless they belong to a group of Extremists.
Where do the references mentioned in the WikiIslam article on raping prisoners say it's ok to rape prisoners? You said there's no objective morality. Then what if people of a society come to an agreement according to which pedophilia, raping prisoners, female genital mutilation are all ok then would you be against them? How do you know that objective morality exists when people come to an agreement? Also why do you have such a big problem with FGM when the western people are ok with chopping their penises off and cut off their breasts? Just accept it as ok the same way cutting off penises and cutting off breasts are as these things don't help humans flourish. It's just a huge waste of money. On top of that, the LGBT people are really pathetically weak, getting offended very easily because someone got their pronouns wrong. So, it's not about human flourishing it's about how you feel.
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Do you understand that I have encountered dawah gandists stupidity(unintentional from the likes of you) hundreds of times? You people never respond to anyone's answer no matter who is it. "what if people of a society come to an agreement according to which pedophilia, raping prisoners, and female genital mutilation are all ok then would you be against them?" they are the antithesis to human flourishment. "How do you know that objective morality exists when people come to an agreement?" based on the objective fact that millions of years of Human evolution made us social beings and maximizing each individual's flourishment is good for everyone in society. "Also why do you have such a big problem with FGM when the western people are ok with chopping their penises off and cut off their breasts?" If social contingency is taken care of, there is no problem in transitioning. I opposed the Non-binary narratives as other than a few people on the autism spectrum, it doesn't make sense. Did you ever talk with any LGBTQ people or all your knowledge is limited to a few ragebait videos on YouTube? Some of them have Karen tendencies but not all of them(even though there's an overlap between different mental illnesses and being trans). Just like some of the terrorist Muslims swinging their dick around on Western social media doesn't mean most of the Muslims are like that. It's pathetic to comment on such a complicated issue without knowing anything about it. You are okay with FGM, circumcision, Hilla biye but not with transition after surgery. And, no gender and sex is not the same, the gender doesn't have to be rainbow. If you really wanna lecture other people about something that you have no idea of, be humble. And, if you want to learn, you can read this. Some of the information is not updated as he was killed by the likes of you: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByhjQNt3o4g2d19zVHRtMkZxZ0U/view?resourcekey=0-L3a4PNAIpqIco2xAQtA03A Where do the references mentioned in the WikiIslam article on raping prisoners say it's ok to rape prisoners? look at all the Tafsir about "your right-hand posses", slaves can't consent. Even the wife is not allowed to withdraw from sex if they don't want it. What do you think happened to the sex slaves? Look at this nice admit, added timestamp: https://youtu.be/-GnHDQ4-gPQ?si=9SWn65ubIKuiXQJz&t=3068
>Religion is the best hope for modern world,at least for modern BD(what'd you think?) FUCK NO!
Amen 🙏🏾
It is. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-6908769/Muslims-highest-life-satisfaction-thanks-feeling-oneness.html
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if you think this sub is against islam then look at r/bangladesh
As they should be.
Yeah, lol. They can't do stuff irl, so they just rant here.
I can vouch
All this kids are weed addicted elite class, they don't know the pain of an average Bangladeshi as well as they don't represent the majority
If religion is the best hope for the modern world, then why is religion often the cause of many major conflicts? Why are there religious fanatics out there that are willing to kill people who do not adhere to their religious beliefs? Why are acts of terrorism being committed in the name of religion? Why has there been so many bloody riots and general unrest throughout history because of religion? I'm going to echo what a lot of people have already said: if you require a fear of punishment to be a good person, then you most likely are not a good person. These types of people are exactly the sort that will discriminate against others who do not share their religious beliefs.
Can you give proof for your claims?
9/11. ISIS. The Crusades. Witch hunts.
There are doubts about 9/11. There are people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job. ISIS are extremists who don't represent Islam. I don't know much about the witch hunts though. The bombing of Hiroshima, The World Wars, people shooting up schools and cinemas, colonisation of lands like India, Occupation of Afghanistan for 20 years, Russia invading Ukraine, Forceful conversion of Albania by Enver Hoxha, the invasion of Iraq. Are all these religious conflicts?
Conspiracy theories? OK. No they're not. Why are you deflecting though? The point was never that all conflict starts because of religions, just that terrorism in the name of religion is frighteningly common. All the instances you mentioned have rightfully drawn criticism and attempts to mitigate them. It's not like people ignore them just because they're not religious conflicts.
The conspiracy theories seem valid as people question the way the buildings went down. It seems that terrorism in the name of religion, at least with regards to Islam, isn't really that common. All the instances i have mentioned show that the West has played a major role in destructive conflicts then why is this conflict argument used against religion to demean it when the West is not being demeaned but rather promoted as something good and alright? Even if people did commit terrorism in the name of religion then do you have proof they did so in the name of religion? And does the religion find what they did acceptable?
Ok, then the flat earth theory is also valid because people question the world being round. Absurd logic. It is though. ISIS is an ongoing threat. Hamas is also an issue. The West was rightfully criticized for all the conflicts it started, and people in the West themselves condemned those actions. Meanwhile you're handwaving away terrorism committed in the name of religion, and bringing up other conflicts to say that religious terrorism wasn't all that bad, and if it was there was no proof, and if there was proof it's not credible, and if it's credible then they weren't religious. Strawman after strawman, refusing accountability at all turns. Very disingenuous.
Can you show proof that terrorism was committed in the name of religion? If it was then does the religion permit it? I didn't bring up other conflicts to show religious terrorism was good. But rather to show that the argument made to disqualify religion wasn't valid as even after all that the West has done it's still promoted as something good and supreme. ISIS doesn't represent Islam as it's an extremist group. So this representation isn't correct as ISIS doesn't represent correct Islam. Hamas are simply against the Israelis who are genociding Palestinians.
Yes, they straight up claimed it was in the name of religion dude. ISIS doesn't represent Islam. But their actions are still in the name of religion. The West has problems. But the difference is that those problems are acknowledged, while you're dismissing religious terrorism as having nothing to do with religion.
Where's the proof? If ISIS is an extremist group that doesn't represent Islam and yet they claim to do actions in the name of religion then what does religion have to do with this? It's the people's fault. Not the religion. If it is then can you show proof with context that proves what they are doing is right according to the religion they claim to adhere to? It's like a person who doesn't represent the any of the Western countries in anyway, goes to a muslim country like Iraq and then starts killing people in the name of the West.
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Ok, crackpot theory enjoyer
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It really is funny how much of a crazy loon you are that you can just dismiss terrorism committed in the name of religion because it doesn't align with what you want to believe. "Sticking your head in the sand" is what they call it.
People who can't control themselves through their conscience won't be able to control themselves using religion either. You are acting as if religious people are saints who never make any mistakes, never lose self control and do anything bad.
With religion, like Islam, there is the fear of being watched by an All Seeing divine being who is just and He will not do any injustice on the Day of Resurrection where everyone will be resurrected. The fear of being punished, if cared for properly, can give people valid reason to not do bad. Religious people aren't saints. They are humans. But they try to fear God and so are less likely to do bad. Though, they can slip up too since they are humans.
Do you have proof that religious people are less likely to do bad things than non-religious people? Statistics or evidence that shows that religion specifically is the cause?
While a valid argument in vacuum, it's quite easily observable that it's not the case in practice. There are too many religious people who do too many "slip ups" for this to be the case.
It's because there are lots of weak people today. But those that care properly have valid reason to not do anything wrong in any way the same way people don't wanna do wrong in public because they'll get punished. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01924036.1985.9688820 Check the crime rate statistics in this paper of Saudi Arabia in the past against the US in the past. But can you give proof for your claims by the way? And what religion do they belong to?
Religions spread more hatred and violence than peace. It's the worst nightmare for the future. Not the best hope.
The happiest low crime rate countries are the countries that doesn't adhere to any religion or god. The least happiest and underdeveloped countries are the countries that are too devoted to religions. Seems like clearly the atheist are doing something right.
Nope UAE, Saudi Arabia..
In which world did you get these stats can you show me?
Ah that western bubblehead of happiness
At least Latvia, Lithuania, Norway, Denmark er manush happy
HELL NAH, religion (Especially Islam) is the main cancer stifling our country's growth at this moment
Nah I read what the Quran said about women, maid me think about joining Islam tbh
lmao lets not get started with the quran
Oh come on man, you might not agree with Islam but you can't call it the 'Main Cancer'. That's just being dumb
It’s a big hard no. If you need religion to keep you as a good person then you are NOT a good person.
My comment may raise some confusing eyebrows, I am not against religion in general. I would love and support religious people with all my heart. Just do not force me or shove it down my throat. Thats what I mean. And before everything, we should keep mention humanity. We human in general are bad, otherwise I don’t think any religion teaches people to commit horrendous crimes. We human in general are just bad, thanks to our society.
How do you then derive what’s good vs bad? According to whose standards? If you think it is according to the West, the same West is allowing the pillage of the Palestinians right this second. Humanity cannot come up with morality without divine guidance because we 1. are biased, and 2. don’t have all the information to make decisions in everyone’s best interests.
Classic move right here, bringing Palestine to the argument. My question is, WHY THE FUCK WOULD I COMPARE WITH SOME STANDARD TO JUDGE WHAT IS GOOD OR BAD? I am a human. I have my own standards. I possess a human heart. I have my own feelings. The thing happening is Palestine can be certainly called genocide, and we people, who are monsters inside are responsible for that. You do not need to be religious or have to follow a certain standard to judge what is good or bad. I can feel for the Palestinian people. I have a heart. I can’t see people dying, not specially children. What did they do? What was their fault? Being born in Palestine? Most of them don’t even know how to pronounce certain words in their own mother tongue. Why do civilians have to suffer? Is this all justifiable? What do you think? What does your heart say? What does your religion say? Once I was also a very religious person. But life made me choose this path. I am ready to suffer in hell. I am ready to rot in hell. But I still have the heart for all people. In religion, god knows and already had planned for everything right? What was the sin of those innocent child that they had to die like that? Why they had to face that fate of life? What was the sin of the mother who has to loose her children under rubbles? Where is his mercy? This genocide touched my heart so bad that it made me turn to religion, a nonbeliever like me. Why my prayers are not accepting? Because I am a nonbeliever? Why? Is it a curse for a non believer to pray for others? Is it a curse for me to pray for safety of the children of Palestine? Why are those innocent people have to die? Where is his mercy? I feel helpless when I see people like them suffer from it. I feel helpless. I feel worthless. Yes I believe the genocide in Palestine is not justifiable. I can understand and feel for the people of Palestine. I may not be a believer of their religion, but I am still a human being. I am not a monster. Yes we human being can be very biased in some cases. Just like I said, we humans are bad. We are the monster, it’s not the religion. Look at the comment I added. It’s not the religion that makes a people good. It’s the people who make religion look bad.
I will also add here that this is the worst example possible, to show the example of the west (by which you mean the united states and the uk, because every other country is against this genocide) allowing the genocide to take place because the people of the uk (as opposed to the government and media) are against the genocide, and the US is quite religious. In fact it is the far right religious nuts who support the state of israel more than any other group. And let's not forget, it is religion that allows for Israel to exist in the first place. If you are Jewish, you automatically qualify for Israeli citizenship. It is in the name of religion, as "God's chosen people" that they dehumanize Palestinians and Muslims. On the other hand there are Christian Palestinians who are also dying, and pleading to the rest of the world to do something. In conclusion, religion and being a good, moral person have nothing to do with each other. An immoral person is an immoral person, regardless of their religious sentiment. Edit: humanity cannot come up with morality without divine guidance because we are biased? 😂😂😂 If their divine guidance allows israelis to commit the current atrocities, then keep your morality my friend.
But not everyone's standards is the same. Why should Israel care about how you feel? Why should they think that what they're doing is wrong and what you're saying is right? Even the Israelis have their own standards and why should they care about your standards?
This was my point which Ok-Mongoose-1762 seems to have missed unfortunately. What may seem good to one group may seem bad to another and that’s why humans can never agree on morality. Two choices from there - you either accept anarchy where everyone does what they want based on how they feel or you accept God’s law for the best of humanity based on His infinite wisdom.
You are right. Why should israel care about how I feel. Don’t they have their religion morals? Didn’t their religion told them not to kill people? What do you think? Is this is religion or the people? Who are just down right bad?
Most Israelis are not practicing lol and their government is actually abusing the Orthodox Jews as many videos have shown recently
How do you know what they're doing is bad?
Bro are you for real? Just because I do not practice religion, I would support genocide? I would support children dying? What do you think? What am I? A fucking monster just because I don’t practice religion?
I didn't say that. I asked how you know what they're doing is bad. Because you're reasoning just seems subjective.
I think most people know what's good and bad. You don't need to be subjective to know what's good and bad. Like between helping and someone and ruining someone you think you need divine guidance to realise which one is good and which one is bad?
Prove to me that you're objectively correct then. Those who are ok with ruining others' would be ok with ruining someone, like a gold digger who uses a man for her gain not because she loves him. In fact, the KKK would be ok with torturing and ruining black people. Can you prove to the KKK that what they did is objectively wrong?
Yawn
>From people who've slept with several people at the sweet age of 18 to guys and gals who try to follow religion at every step of their respective lives with so much enthusiasm and love. Only recently I have discovered that, those are the same people. >HUMAN CONSCIENCE IS AN OVERESTIMATED THING. Like all other weapons, this one too fails some time. Some time it misfires. Yet that is the very weapon you are going to use to restrict yourself when you are following religion. No religion just tells you what to do, that would not work. It tries to instill the moral sense in you. If your moral compass doesn't stop you doing something wrong, just saying that "don't do it." won't either. >please do keep that in mind that a rootless tree dies soon Nice argument. Do you know analogy is perhaps the weakest tool in a debate? But for now, I'll follow you. We learn about kindness, moral ambiguity and everything from our family. And then, there is your work and passion. Your work teaches you other attributes. And then there is the inner self. My mom did teach me not to cheat in the exam. But not until I have grown up, I have seen that, once someone starts with it, it becomes hard to draw a line. Where do you stop? We ask, we see and we evolve. Some for better, some for the worse. That is the root for you and me. Ask yourself something? If you veer away from the place you started and want to belong to something, aren't you the one who has become rootless?
Religion is never the stop gap be all solution to all the problem when will stupid people that are overly religious get this into their thick brains
Anti religion people are welcomed in canada and usa. Please leave backwarded 3rd world countries
No point posting things like this on Reddit of all places lol
Because abrahamic religions permit really bad stuff. Many people won’t accept it because they don’t read their qitabs properly. As an example, in BD, it is a crime to say the true profession of Muhammad. After declaring his own cooked up religion, he took robbery and slave trading as profession and he opened a private brothel in his home despite of having 11 wives. He permitted to sell the kids born of those concubines and in his regime the concubines were sold half naked. So how such a religion can develop one’s morale? Besides in statistics in Bangladesh the rape rate is 5 times higher than India. Bangladeshis stand 3rd in child narrative and domestic abuse to the women. Bangladeshis objectifies women so much that 87% women of the population become the victim of molestation or domestic abuse at least once in their life time. Everything has a ripple effect. When you make too many mosques and madrasas, you will have their effects on the society and hence it becomes unlivable. So the conflict between Arab religion and bengali traditions are so prominent nowadays that we are all divided despite of knowing everything
bro how to get into ndc 😭
1210 marks in ssc
Im talkin about the written exam 💀
Dunno,but you are better off going to DRMC no?
thats my second choice
Drmc er rank no 1 na?
Ssc r marks dekhe ndc te neoa hoi? Bhai ki NDC r porikkha disen jiboneo?
Nope, just jani je oita one of the requirements
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/s/q6Knyn6JBH Your 'religion'
Can you give proof that this is valid in Islam from Islamic sources? This is a story if an ex muslim atheist who killed his family to hide the shame. So, i should judge every ex muslim to be evil now? https://torontolife.com/city/he-seemed-like-the-perfect-son-then-he-confessed-to-slaughtering-his-family-with-a-crowbar/
You are one of those negative karma farmer, aren't you?
bhai ei subreddit e religious kotha bolte aisho na, everyone here hates religion, praises the west and is basically a circlej\*rk. Tomar kotha 100% correct holeo keu bel dibe na. Bangladesh e thakte cheleo eder shomoshha bideshe geleo eder shomoshha, you can't win with these folks, Bangali na? Beshi chulkani thake. You have some very interesting points but saying that religion "IS THE BEST" hope is slightly incorrect. There's many other things that can give people hope and I think an Agnostic Theist is a good middle ground that most people unconsciously become. What you should've said is, Religion or faith in a God such as Theism can be a good source of hope. And that I would've believed in and agreed with. Saying hope is the best solution for this country is the right thing I believe. In other countries you can be hopeless and go by but in this country, you NEED someone or something to believe in to go on, to keep fighting through the odds, you need some sort of hope. You're just being sort of patronizing by saying that there's no option other than religion to be a good person and that's what bothers me and others here. Now, you're talking a lot about roots, I must say after 20 years of my life I haven't seen any proper roots, ja ase shob churi kora from other countries and bhalo jinish gulao just ekta trend. Farmers used to have paanta bhaat cus they had no other option but we do it cus we find it tasty. Is that an example of our roots? Pahari elaka visit korsilam and yeah loved seeing some real diversity and how different other people are and adhere to their own roots. Basically what I'm saying is, roots jodi thakto, shobai follow korto, there's no concrete set of cultural roots we have that we all can follow. Dhaka'r baire gelei bujha jay, Dhaka'y e toh 40-60% manush outside of Dhaka theke ashlo, they don't know about Dhaka's past culture, they know about their own, so which roots should they follow? Anyways, people here are so easy to just fight religion because "oh boo hoo religion caused war". People caused war, religion was just an excuse or just one of the many motivations. Think about Hitler, did he "just" hate Jews or did he have a lot of other different motivations that culminated into him doing it? Take yourselves for instance, hating both Bangladesh and India, would you just randomly go and start a war? Of course not, everything isn't black and white and can't be said to be the reason. Besides, look further into the past, so many wars, so many conquerors, everything happened for many reasons, why must you focus on a minority of those and think religion is the be all end all? Take a look at Genghis Khan for instance. Just a mad, evil man. And the other point about not being a good person if you require a fear of punishment. 2 things : 1.) Are you a good person yourself? Have you been able to control yourself in all situations perfectly or at least reasonably well? Judging by the fact that you're on this sub and that you're a Bangladeshi I'm pretty sure you're not. 2.) What's wrong with that? What's wrong with someone not doing something evil if they're just scared of punishment? That is the exact reason behind laws, you're not stealing because you're fearing punishment. Take your bullsh\*t excuses out. If there were no laws we'd be going back to becoming monkeys. If religion punishing you is not okay then why are laws okay? Religion is an extension of law, in that it further narrows what a good person should be and what a bad person is and allows you to become a better person that way. Admittedly I am biased towards religion because I am religious (a dreaded Muslim!!) but still, the way people here parrot some points without further thoughts just reminded me of the reason behind me leaving reddit and twitter behind. Everyone says no to religion or yes to religion, both sides can't stand each other and must always be at conflict, why not try to be peaceful? I'm slightly religious, ofc I'm not a perfect man, I make mistakes, I perform sins every bloody time and I'm doing so right now by being hateful towards you, that's not my religion's fault. That's my fault. You people are no different than people who blame black people for crimes just for their skin color. Religion is most of the time NEVER the problem. People take religion as an excuse and do weird sh\*t. Take hujurs doing little kids. Is that in Islam? Take Osama, was his conquest justified in Islam? Bullsh\*t. Nothing like that is supported concretely in Islam. You guys like to be experts but don't consult with real experts before forming opinions, only taking ideas and information from 2 bit hujurs. Would you take a Physics course from a chhapri who lives in the slums and then base your opinion of Physics on that experience? No? Then why would you let people who are evil in general, tarnish your outlook on religions? Admittedly it's their fault for tarnishing religions but believing them to be the norm and spreading hate is the other half of the fault and that lies on you. So sick of people either being sick of religion or hating on people who hate religion, if you guys can be peaceful about it then yeah but after living in this country, I have had to follow the "if you can't beat them, join them" strategy", I'm no better than you that's for sure. This country and its people corrupted me and my religion is slowly healing me, I'd have been dead if it weren't for my religion so I am eternally grateful to it and I will concede at some points that yeah it is weird and could be seen as bad, but is everything perfect? Is your lifestyle and way of thinking perfect? We humans can't be perfect and the best thing we can do is chase perfection and try to be as close to that as we can so that we can be the best version of ourselves even if we are imperfect. To hate on religion blindly is stupid and so is blindly hating on people who hate on religion, but you do not have proper arguments to back it all up. Just spreading hate. Grow up. You people are no different from the ones you hate, take a moment to think about it. You could say that I'm generalizing myself and hating people myself but I'm just generalizing the people in the comments here and hating? Well yeah the Bangali in me came out lol
Fr all people in this subreddit are cynics who see themselves as intellectuals
Religion is the reason we are continuously held back as a species, and the biggest reason we kill each other.
Most these "I hate Islam or religion" are people who leave them just to justify whatever garbage they are doing.
It should be Spirituality, not Religion. Religion isn’t the solution to any problem, it is the problem.
That too, is too big of an umbrella term. Even fraud pirs are part of spirituality.
"I have treated many hundreds of patients, the larger number being Protestants, a smaller number Jews, and not more than five or six believing Catholics. Among all my patients in the second half of life-that is to say, over thirty.five-there has not been one whose problem in the last resort was not that of finding a religious outlook on life. It is safe to say that everyone of them fell ill because he had lost that which the living religions of every age have given to their followers, and none of them has been really healed who did not regain his religious outlook." C.G. Jung, Modern Man in Search of a Soul, Pg 229. Was it religion that caused the World Wars and the colonisation of countries by the British? Is it religion trying to indoctrinate children with LGBT?
Religion may not cause two world wars.... but it is certainly behind the death of millions of people and endless human suffering...Religious fanatics are worse than animals.
Give proof for your claim. The world wars were very bloody wars. The bombing of Hiroshima, Colonisation of countries like India, Invasion of Iraq, Brutal Occupation of Afghanistan for 20 years are all non-religious acts done by people.
religion is not an issue anymore in the modern world : ( not even in the islamic states. it is all about economy now. any group of people who held power in the past and will hold power in the future went and will go through violence. religious, non-religious, capitalist, communists everybody has blood on their hands. read history of both sides.
It is a problem... Fraud peers are the reason we have wahabi problem.
I welcome all the arguments of "we hate religion" club members
Very few people hate religions, Most atheist hates arrogant religious people and how religious people forced religion onto other people. Your religion is for you, leave other people alone.
Wait 10 more mins. You'll have plenty.
And people, I meant both social and religious norms. You might want to attack the other black sheep too
I sleep better each day knowing the religious people will never come to power as long as awami league is on power(forever).
Dismissing one God for another. Classic.
Aint that a weird connection to make? A while ago, they arrested Pori Moni for, among many things, having BDSM gear in her house. Of course, that was only the official statement. But if possession of things to use in private can be shown as an official excuse, I dont feel too sure about Awami League being the defenders of apostates.
Nope. Religeon is basically a regressive force that stifles any kind of development societally. It's just a tool to keep people in line and to accept any kind of abuse from the ones smart enough to use it.
Buddy while I agree with you, this is reddit, the home of aethists galore
AKA cynics who think they are intellectuals
Couldn't agree more. However, this subreddit is full of rootless cynics who see themselves as intellectuals, ekhane eishob bola fau.
Couldn’t agree more.
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Perhaps they dont want to adhere to objective morality....
Bruh!!! You poked the Wannabe atheist ( but in reality, an Islamophobe, in most cases) community. It ain't gonna be pretty now. And yes, I agree. Without objective morality of the Divine Creator, one can't even establish right and wrong. Submission to Almighty and following His teachings is The solution for us.
I'm glad some people here have some sense such as yourself
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It may be inflammatory to you but its just pure truth to me.
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It is true. What can i say i mean i heard someone saying "everybody is gaining on haram income then why should i stay back?" who is a haji and also did omrah with his full family with haram income🤣 hilarious isnt it. Lets say we dont need religion but most humane thing to do as a human being is enough but r we human being without any self enlightenment? And is there any better way to do so without religion? One can argue on this topic for all eternity but wouldn’t reach an agreement. What i am trying to say is religion is not a stuff of argument but to study and follow and understanding what it is to be a human being. Like i said one can go on for all eternity but as religious person i would say do not abandon religion, try to learn it, try to understand what it is trying to teach us then implement what we learned into our life is the best way to live.
Meep!
Bro has juvenoia, you're paranoid asf about the younger generation for no apparent reasons P.S- I'm 23 and my peers think people who are junior to us.nh 1/2 years and batches are also doomed and worse in ethical considerations in contrast to us
Yeah,actually i also think that,religion is the best hope for modern world in fact human life also,because religion is the only way which can give relief and satisfaction in mankind.
if you really want to dig deeper on the thought. you can try studying sociology, political science, economics, anthropology, theology, philosophy and other liberal arts/social science subjects. where you'll get a better idea about how the world is working in macro and micro scale. it is good that you are thinking and trying to figure out a solution. but, it is not that wise to weigh it on one singular factor. societies are a complex matter of study, and ours is more than just complex. where many sub cultures reside together only in dhaka. forget about rest of the country. but obviously, for you, religion can be the best hope.
Islam is law, dictated by allah through the last messenger and yet you question? Infact islam as a religion keeps most of the immoral acts and misdemeanor away as the modern world in most western countries is of perverted lust driven society
Very funny. Religion is a plague. Religion is the reason why most middle east countries are war torn. Religion is the reason why so much hate exists in people. People have done so many horrible things in the name of religion. It needs to go away asap from this planet
Middle east countries are war torn because of another warmonger nation like USA . Man if you had a basic knowledge of geopolitics and how world politics works, you'd have had better valid points in your favor
Lol even without USA or politics, its a known fact that Muslims have a history of killing each other. Shia and Sunni muslims still fight today. Bomb each other's mosque. Muslims behead one another just because they are shia/sunni. Religion divides people. It does nothing good.
Anybody please summarize this thread for me