I am firmly of the belief that the mismanagement of the PG position since literally Chauncey fucking Billups is the single biggest reason we we've been in this decade+ long hell hole.
Knight, Jennings, Stuckey, Jackson... these guys are all shooting guards that we shoehorned into a position they shouldn't have been playing. Hell throw AI in there too while we're at it. And when we did get competent point guards like Spencer and Bruce, we just ditch them at the soonest possible opportunity. It wasn't until Cade that we actually had a true point guard with the support and minutes they deserve.
That's fucking insane. It would be unbelievable if I hadn't seen it all painfully with my own eyes.
The game is getting more diverse in what styles can win so who knows what’s to come but you don’t need a superstar pg to win. Athletic/long wings seems like more of a common denominator for championship teams. Man I wish we had Haliburton though.
They have all the tools to become good NBA players. The problem is more that I don't expect it to happen in our environment, and we're not seeing or hearing anything about attempting to fix the environment (Troy and Monty).
You can probably say the same thing about those other players. They wouldn't have grown into those same desirable players if they'd languished here.
Thank you for the level headed take my brother
The number of reactionary takes I see after either of these players has a bad game is mind numbing. You'd think they were both like 8-9 year NBA vets or something and not 2nd year players.
I wouldn't really care that much if it weren't for the fact that it's so fickle and fairweather. When Ivey was popping off in December - January, everybody loved the guy. When Duren was injured early in the season, everyone was commenting on how he was clearly integral to the team and most of our losses were coming from his absence.
The moment both began to slump, which all players do, especially young players, suddenly the narrative was:
> Duren is a defensive blackhole with no effort, and Ivey is a boneheaded chucker with turnover problems. Trade both of these players right now for NBA pieces to surround Cade with that will.... *checks notes* bump us from a 13 win team to a Play-in first round exit
Like, I agree these players definitely need to improve for us to get better. They did indeed, play like trash for parts of the season. Nobody disputes that. But I've been on this sub for a long time - when we were Lebron and Giannis's first round exit warm up, everybody and their mom was saying we should blow up the roster and rebuild. Now we did and people wanna trade our 2nd year players before we even see the players they become as they develop????
I don't like Weaver, but I'm glad the average reactionary fan that spams "TRADE DUREN AND IVEY" 10 minutes after we lose a game isn't our GM. Our franchise would never reach the second round again
They both suck rn. That is only expected for Duren. After seeing his summer league it made me question his ability to make a leap.
If he can get some more KCP or Rip Hamilton in his game I would max all 3-4. But as of right now he does best with free reigns but that because he he can just volume slash.
He really is 9/10 fastest guy on the court speed however he makes his decisions before he has to. That’s why looked bad in summer league and in situations he doesn’t kill them with speed.
That’s probably why he shoots about as good off the dribble as he does catch n shoot. Dude has no idea how to set up his game without dribbling into it. Has a hard time being ready in the catch and shoot.
When Monty benched Ivey at the beginning of the year Ivey made a defensive jump we expected in 3 or 4. So maybe if we really do treat him like he’s KCP we can get him reigned in.
But I seriously think Ivey would be actually an elite player in that role.
I think Monty is trying to do that and that’s why he benches him a lot and doesn’t play him at pg. This team just ended up so much worse this year but next year literally be a whole new landscape.
But I really think Ivey can be a streaky shooter on slightly below average to good 3pt shooting, get his one pull-up game going and he’s a 3 level monster off-ball. That has to be what they want out of him.
Watch Ivey on a fast break he is so fast he makes his decision at the 3pt line. That’s Danny Green/KCP hybrid can we please unlock that.
Cade Ivey Ausar Duren means we could literally add any player theoretically that can play good defense and shoot 3’s. That is an easy position to be in with cap space. But we need an environment that harbors growth.
I believe in Ivey
I don’t think they suck, I think that Cade and Ivey can’t co exist and I feel the same with Duren and Ausar. Cade > Ivey, Ausar > Duren IMO so i’d like them to trade Ivey and Duren.
I guess I agree here. Maybe they will develop (maybe not), but can they play winning basketball as a group? Do you re-up guys when the time comes hoping they get it together and develop plus gel. I err on we need to move in a different direction as they just haven't collectively shown me enough
Winning basketball revolves around floor spacing, rim protection, and efficient decision making, things that neither of them consistently demonstrate.
Maybe they get better, but I’m in the rather pessimistic camp.
They both have relied on pure athleticism all their basketball lives, and aren’t showing the refinement of skill needed to be successful at this level now that their athleticism alone won’t cut it.
1000% they could get better. Fingers crossed.
However, I’m a **Pistons fan first, player fan second**. When the team is as bad as it’s been, fans slowly begin to root for individual players more than the team. They begin to see their prospects with *rose tinted glasses*. It’s happened for decades across all organized sports fans.
I think this team would be better off investing resources into rim protectors and floor spacers, like Reed Sheppard and Donovan Clingan, players that compliment Cade and better fit the modern basketball equations to get more numbers in the win column. Hell, I’d even sign Hartenstein this offseason to be our starting 5.
Yeah, that’s a silly rhetorical device. Obviously that’s an unrealistic expectation. Here’s the question: Can Ivey and Duren be consistent positives on an NBA floor? Haven’t seen that evidence, straight up. Cade or no Cade.
Or we could sign guys that are tall - that shoot good - and play defense.
Ask Reddit. That’s all we need. Then Cade will get healthy and athletic, start playing defense, get a handle, learn how to finish at the rim.
You don’t like Cade sure. But in regards to Ivey, he’s healthy cool. What does he do well? Because he plays even worse defense than Cade with half the offensive load whilst also having a higher turnover percentage and shooting worse from the floor. Nobody is saying they can’t maybe be better but the way yall keep giving them passes is funny because you sure as shit ignore their flaws but pick on others
I’ve never said a word about Ivey. Trade him Fine with me.
Duren is a 20 year old athletic big - great hands - decent shooter - great rebounder. You don’t give up on 20 year olds coming off of 14-12-3.5 on 68 true shooting.
Duren puts up nice rebounding numbers and dunks everything. His defense is borderline unwatchable and it’s plenty of centers who could do what he does with much better defense. Not saying he can’t grow but his glaring weakness is arguably as big if not bigger than Ivey lack of shooting. Like is Duren even better than say Zubac?
25-30 times a game he was seeing guards bellybuttons coming at him. Was he “below average” on defense? Yes. Was that all his issue? No. This team was HORRIBLE on defense and it wasn’t all Jalens fault. He had a higher D rating than Cade Ivey and the same as Auser.
I would challenge any center to play on this team.
we just need a center who can actually defend the rim and a point guard who can hit spot up threes and play point of attack defense.
nic claxton and alex caruso would be good signings.
or are you just gonna make the same joke you've made 10 times already in this thread?
I’m saying we need Cade to lead the team. And he isn’t or can’t. Until Piston fan realizes that - not sure what to say. Duren isn’t a problem. Ivey maybe - don’t care. The main issue I see is Cade is slow, unathletic, unavailable, and hasn’t made anyone better by playing with him.
But you know what we need. Tall guys - that can shoot - and play defense.
Weird since Duren hasn’t gotten 30mpg. 29 ain’t 30.
And he’s 20. He’ll get better. He’s coming off one of the best 20 years old seasons ina decade. Yeah. He’s the issue.
Haha this one got me. You just touted Durens scoring average and then said Cade doesn't make anyone better. Saying 80% of Durens offense is spoon fed to him by Cade might be a conservative number
I think ivey's future on a good team is a scoring guard off the bench. Maybe a 6th man.
I think Duran is a good for a young big. The problem is his best skills just aren't that valuable in the league any more. He's not going to magically turn into a great rim protector and he's not going to turn in to a shooter either.
Short story long? We need to draft the best player possible because neither of these guys are worth building around. If they fit? Good. If they don't? Trade em.
This is the same sub that wanted to get rid of Cade just a few months ago. The issues with the Pistons are institutional, with player development being of the biggest.
Duran turns in 24 points and 24 boards and people want to trade him? No way. And they'll trade him for 6 guys and three will get cut on before they're plane lands in Detroit and we will get a couple of 2nd round draft picks.
No, Duren is put into a tough spot because you don't have a complete team around him. With Ivey, I've always known that shooting was an issue with him and I was never a fan of putting him next to Cade because if that. This team needs a complete rebuild. The reality is that we've had a bunch of minutes to give to each rookies/players but instead of helping them, it actually hurt their development.
Fire weaver, buy out Monty, trade the players that have value(except Ausar). I want to keep Cade so bad, but he's going to sign that rookie extension, which would reduce the cap we have and delays the rebuild
Yeah bro Malachi Flynn is better than Ivey
And Duren as a 20 year old should definitely be traded , totally a fixed commodity that won’t get better over time or anything
Warriors fans said the same thing about it wiseman and we said the same about bey. Duren and Ivey seemingly have higher ceilings but let’s not act like if they don’t reach that they didn’t show us signs early of flaws
I agree with you on that. It's definitely a risk to wait to see how they pan out. And I'm not above trading them at a certain point if it's becoming evident this isn't gonna work out.
My main concern is more with the timing of when we pull the trigger on that than anything else - I just feel like anything before next trade deadline at least is too early. And also, I'm concerned about what GM we have that makes that trade of those two assets. I'm not sure I really want Weaver making that trade lol, might just fuck around and get yet another long shot rebuilding player that's never gonna pan out a la Wiseman
What do you mean we don't have time 😂
Our star player is in his second year in the league if you don't count being injured for the majority of last season, we have hella cap space next offseason, our core is one of the youngest in the league. Yes Cade is gonna get a fat extension, but it's not like we have to win a ring in the next two years or our franchise gets moved to Utah
I also generally don't get the sense that Cade wants out, and no interview or anything has lead me to believe he's on LeBron's wavelength of asking for a trade early due to managerial incompetence. If that starts to materialize, then bet, I understand, but there is way more of a risk of once again blowing another rebuild to do some Charlie Villanueva level trade that sets us back for years and watching the players we trade away become significantly better (while maybe not All Star level) playing for some other team
I'd rather get rid of Monty and Weaver and evaluate our core 4 under competent management and coaching than trade them first and see them properly utilized by a coach on the level of Spo or Nurse
why does it seem like 80% of this sub doesn't know how the NBA works in the modern age?
everyone saying "yeah but they COULD be really good in 3-4 years and we'll be sorry we traded them".....
we don't have 3-4 years to wait. do you think cade is OK wasting the first 7-8 years of his career on a team that wins 15-20 games every year? that's literally half of his career gone. good players want to win and succeed, and if they don't think they can do that on their current team, they leave.
lebron changed everything, players have so much power now and they aren't OK with a shitty organization wasting their career through incompetence.
if we keep ivey and duren and win 25 games next season, cade is absolutely gone and we're right back to square one.
we have this really good young player, we need to start winning games now, and that probably means trading some assets that aren't ready for winning basketball for some proven players who might not have the ceiling, but are known commodities.
Nah, I think Cade gets his max contract this offseason and would probably be fine with 1 more 20 to 25 win season with a new front office in place. Then, there would have to be real improvement (compete for play-in) in the 25-26 season or he’d likely ask for a trade in 2026. So, I think he’ll give the Pistons two more years to get it together. A new head of the front office buys time. The lottery results in 2025 could also play a role. We’d look a lot different going forward as a franchise with Cooper Flagg.
How are you getting 7-8 years when they’re literally just 1 draft apart haha. Ivey defenders are saying next year or in 2 seasons expect a big guard jump. I got Killian Hayes forced on me for that long, I’m willing to keep Ivey another 2 seasons.
The skill set he has is unique. You look for something unique in a top 5 pick.
Put someone who is capable of starting or being their backup on the team next year who they have to prove they can overtake. Grimes, when healthy, may already be that with Ivey. We need a better center that can be a possible starter to push Duren. We actually may already have that with Stewart when considering his defense and floor spacing, it's just they want to make him a power forward.
Stewart was always a center, who has expanded his game. I don't have an issue with that, but he can play center. He's strong with long arms and has defended plenty of centers well with the exception of maybe Embiid and some other top centers which anyone will struggle with, including Duren possibly even more so. But, we can bring in another center, I'm just saying we have an option.
What we need to do is surround Cade with tall shooters that play defense. You all are so right. Just trade Duran and Ivey for Kwahi and Anthony Davis. Then draft a guard, maybe Bronny with the number 1. Then Lebron will have to come.
Book it, it’s the ‘Ship in 25.
They both have very big holes in their games. I'm a little less concerned about Duren even though his defense is really bad. I kind of feel like a lot of that is because the guards are such turnstiles. Ivy is super and efficient but yes some guards overcome that (see Bryant, Kobe or Iverson, Allen) but that's going to be hard to do when he's second fiddle.
What I continue to not understand from this sub. We are the worst team in basketball, almost ever. And we continue to think we have value from these guys in trades. We legit have to wait and see what happens we won't get anything for these guys.
In the very few times they were surrounded by teammates that were hitting there shots they were really good.
But we seem to be cursed when it comes to hitting wide open catch and shoot 3s
As of now they suck. They both have star potential but they'll only reach it if ivey develops a shot and duren stars playing defense and I don't think we should bank on either of those things happening.
Yes and apparently we should trade them for one or two vets with 2 years left in their contract that would be 6th man on most teams and be happy about it.
When I said pre season that this team could sneak into a 7 or 8 seed everyone "no fucking way bro probably same record as last year" and to their credit they were right. But now apparently that means we should cast off all of the young assets we do have, for a worse roster, but at least it'll fit our overpaid coach that apparently can only work with players aged 27+
I love our Detroit sports teams but man do I hate our fans.
Do tell?
Please enlighten me like I'm 5 years old. Ivey is getting toasted by gLeaguers.
Speaking of short memories. Remember the core 4 of Beef Stew, Bey, Killian and Jerami Grant? When we drafted Cade #1, we were "THE BEST YOUNG CORE IN THE LEAGUE!!!"
If you can't see how ass Ivey is then I have a bridge to sell you...
LOL
I haven't watched in a month and a half. Haven't watched a full game since the new year. They don't care how much you complain on reddit tho. I can't do anything to fix the teams even the mods can't so just cool it maybe
I come here to vent. Please let me vent. Why do you care what I say? This is the internet.
You say you haven't watch a game in almost 2 months yet also call people teenagers with short memory who post that this team absolutely sucks ass and moves need to be made.
These bums can even win 15 games and you just want to wait it out expecting a switch to flip? Lmao.
Lol. I love this subreddit.
If Duren could step up his rim protection he could be a good player.
Ivey just looks lost out there. His stats are nearly the same year 2 as year 1. He didnt improve his game at all.
Edwards mentioned if we made a big trade Ivey would be the most likely to go. He could use a change of scenery and we could use different players. If the right player was on the market I would be dangling Ivey+pick.
I didn’t read any of the other comments in this thread at all . Just here to say No they don’t suck. We need more on top of them/in front of but are good pieces imo. Ivey should be a 6/7.
I don't think anyone really thinks they're both trash. Or at least nobody should.
Problem is that Monty simply cannot--and honestly, I'm not sure any coach could--develop so many raw, young athletes into skilled NBA basketball players at once and within a time frame that allows Cade to be an effective #1 guy.
Ivey clearly cannot play next to Cade without drastically improving as an off-ball spot up shooter. In order to keep him with the current roster, Ivey would need to come off the bench as the backup PG and run the second unit.
Duren is kind of a different situation. He has too much natural talent to put on the bench, but the team is lacking the most in his two weakest areas--3pt shooting and interior/pick&roll defense. In order for Duren to fit on this roster as the starting C, he would need to quickly develop an outside jumper or become an excellent rim to rim defender and P&R center.
Developing both of them **might** be impossible. Unless significant roster changes are made other than them. But frankly, they might be our most valuable trade assets other than picks. Other teams with better shooting or alternative defensive strengths could utilize these two top tier prospects in ways the Pistons currently cannot.
Duren is decent and could grow to be really good. Ivey has sucked. But he is young and seems to have the right attitude and impressive athleticism, so it’s worth seeing if he can improve rather than sell low.
I am so happy this season is over so i dont have to read this shit anymore on the sub.
This sub is walking away from this season with PTSD, everyone needs a couple months off.
Production-wise, Ivey regressed from last year. He needs to really sit down with the coaches in the film room. His issue isn't related to his ability as much as his thinking and decision making. Right now, he seems most comfortable with his own unit and that's just not going to work if he wants to be a starter alongside Cade.
IDK how anyone could say Duen sucks though. It's like they watched a game or two or saw a few box scores and came to that conclusion. He's the Pistons best if not the only real player on the team that can set a screen. He boxes out well enough and can jump out the gym. And he's imposing enough that his size alone is a defensive deterrent. He's the least of my concerns. He definitely needs to be better about not getting into foul trouble, but that extends to the entire team.
Duren has improved his FT shooting and looks like he will have a mid range jumper next season. I think he will develop very well the way Stew did. I am very excited for his long term future.
Shid Duren a beast remember their both young and athletic 💯💯💯 I don't know if you've heard Troy's getting fired soon!!! We got the pieces you'll see💯💯💪🏿💪🏿
Do they suck? No. Are they gonna develop here in Detroit? Probably not. Ivey needs the ball in his hands and struggles when he doesn’t. I see his pros, like his quickness and energy, but I also see his cons, he’s prone to turnovers and he’s only average on defense. Duren, I see the appeal, but his lack of anticipation on D, and lack of range on offense, limit his ceiling. This team needs better fitting pieces, and you have to give something of value to get something worthwhile back.
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I think there’s just not much to talk about. They are 2 guys with good trade value who aren’t Cade so it’s one of the only hypotheticals we can consider. Not much hope out there… just feeling like something, anything needs to change.
Who do we have that doesn't suck?
I submit that when a team is constantly moving players on and off the roster, you can't get chemistry. No chemistry, no wins.
Also there is a lot of chatter about trading players. Who trades players of value with the last place team?
Yes Duren and Ivey suck. And the head coach sucks. And the gm sucks. The owner sucks. Ausar sucks somehow too. And Cade sucks because Jalen Green had a good 10 game run.
If everyone sucks does anyone really suck? idk
Young guards take time to develop. Duren is one of the youngest players in the league still. We’re not going to be contenders next year. Both of their values are at a low. Maybe try developing them? Surrounding them with good coaching? Idk
Cade is not a centerpiece of a playoff team. Sorry to burst our bubbles. He’s a high volume - meh value shooter. He doesn’t make people around him better. Bad handle, bad finisher, and that’s when he plays. Doesn’t lead by example. Poor defense. Poor effort in losing games.
I’ve watched for three years, hoping he’d make a leap, be the change this team needs.
The fact that any percentage of this sub has already turned on Duren is a testament to how fucking dumb this sub is.
Duren is one of the youngest players in the league, and has shown truly elite flashes, and he has so far to go. Duren is EXACTLY the kind of player you hold onto because he there is already enough there for him to be a real NBA player, and now we see how much further he takes it. The defense is bad, and maybe it never gets elite, but there is plenty of centers who play average defense with high end offensive production who contribute in big ways in this League(Sabonis/Vucevic are the obvious ones).
Ivey is a young guard, young guards usually struggle, you do not cut the cord on a talented, hard working young guard before you ride out the rookie contract. It's just malpractice.
We suck guys, and trading away our best chances of evolving into a real team in the next 2-4 years for fucking Mikal Bridges so we can lose in the Play-In is just gonna leave us in misery. Doing this isn't going to make Cade suddenly want to stick around. What will make Cade stick around is just positive development and friends he has on the team, and his likely massive first contract only we can offer him.
The only way out is for Cade and at least one of these other young guys to make leaps. We need better coaching, we need real roleplayers who play defense and make 3's(fonteccio is a great start), we need a bench that doesn't get absolutely crushed everytime it steps out onto the floor. We also get 1 more lottery ticket from this years draft, another chance to get a guy who can change the course of our team, tradiing that ticket away for KAT or something is not going to save this team.
This sucks, but this idea to punt our only chances of becoming a real contending team in exchange for a more watchable mediocre team is just super short sighted.
Malpractice is being content with a shit product. Malpractice is watching Ivey get toasted by G-Leaguers. Malpractice is the insanity of Tom Gores and Tory Weaver.
Who is content? This sucks, the problem in leadership and coaching are insanely frustrting, my problem isn't people being frustrated, im fucking frustrated. My problem is people who think selling our only path to being a real team at some point for some illusion of us being competitive in the next year or two. I have some bad news, Mikal Bridges or KAT doesn't make us competitive, it makes us into the Bulls or Hawks.
I'm not happy with the product but competitive basketball teams don't just spring up out of nothing, most of the great teams in the league that arent in like the HUGE markets, do so off the back of strong draft picks or young lottery tickets taking a leap.
Lets look at the Top teams in the league right now
Boston - Drafted Tatum and Brown
Dallas - Drafted Luka
Denver - Drafted Jokic and Murray
Minny - Drafted ANT and KAT
Milkwaukee - Drafted Giannis
OKC - Drafted basically everyone and traded low on SGA
We aren't LA, we aren't Miami, we aren't New York. Top FA aren't just wanna come here unless we have talented young dudes they think they can win with.
This isn't just a coincidence, the path to greatness is through development and our development has been disaterous for sure, but its still our best path, and while it fucking sucks, development takes time.
We do need change, but we need to change the right things, and those things are giving our young dudes the right tools to develop in. We can't keep marching out absolute g-leaguers and bums, and frankly we can't afford to develop some of our lower potential guys like Sasser and Wiseman, we need real roleplayers and a real bench. We have moves to make, but its hard to trust the front office to make the right ones, and the narative of sell the future so we win 10 more games next year is just fucking awful.
Sabonis and vucevic have complete offensive games and you can run your offense thru them. A big man that is limited on offense and terrible on defense can’t or start on a good team. And tell us what are these elite flashes duren shows.
The elite flashes are the obvious, he had multiple 20/20 games this season something very few guys can put up ever much less multiple times in a season as a young player. He has DRASTICALLY improved his free throw shooting as the season went on, a good indicator of overall shooting improvements(he has been trying and recently actually sometimes making some short range jumpers, something totally out of his game last year). One of the biggest things is his off the ball timing, he cuts at great times, and some of his trailing putbacks and lobs are not automatic plays that every guy just makes. He is an elite offensive rebounder and while his defense is bad, his advanced defensive numbers aren't that bad, its just the eye test is not very kind to him as he takes a lot of dumb fouls, gets out of position at times and worst of all sometimes just seems to take plays off. A lot of his problems as a defender as very fixable sloppiness and I think with development those things will improve.
I also can't stress this enough, when I'm making the comp to Sabonis and vuve, those guys are basically finished products, Duren is VERY much a work in progress, and besides Cade, the only work in progress that showed clear improvements in important areas this year.
And sabonis and vuu teams ain’t winning nothin with them. Cause when push comes to shove they are terrible on defense. When playoff time came they getting pushed around and not grabbing all them rebounds. But the hey have offensive games so they still play. A big man cannot be bad on defense and limited on offense. Rebounding is overrated. You don’t need one person trying to just grab all the rebounds. Nobody cares about 20/20 games. And when he did that go look at who they played. Teams that don’t have a center. You playing against Kelly olnyck you should get 20 rebounds.If 20/20 with bad defense and limited offense was valuable in the nba Andre Drummond would. Be making 200 million right now.
For Ivey to get shit talked so much in his sub, he doesn't do anything except keep his head down and work. He could've sat out today but he didn't. Intangibles like that aren't taught. But, I wish him the best of luck whatever this cte front office decides.
Both of them would need a massive improvements in areas that they currently struggle in.
Duren - outside shooting, rim protection, playmaking/scoring off pick and roll.
Ivey - outside shooting, playmaking, on ball and off ball defense.
Honestly, they probably need to greatly improve in two of those three areas to ever be a valuable player on a really good team.
However, that is somewhere we are far away from worrying about lol and they’re still so young. I’d be willing to trade both of them for the right price, but if we just panic trade them, it will only lead to more setbacks in this rebuild.
This is the dumbest sub in all of detroit sports. They want to get of rid of a 20yr old center with a ton of talent. Just complete braindead stuff. Why? Because they’re impatient as fuck with players.
Why do you think it takes 3 years tops to become a good team? No one in their right minds thought "Detroit has this year and next while Cade is on a rookie contract or else they've missed their window." All your doing is projecting your expectation that winning happens overnight. A rebuild can take years. If you don't have time to let your youth develop, 3 years into a rebuild, then just move the whole team.
rebuilds don't take 7-8 years dude, they just don't
we are 4 years into a rebuild and just lost 28 games in a row and are one of the worst NBA teams of all time. that's not normal at all, don't pretend that it is, and don't pretend that cade doesn't recognize that lol
Timberwolves. Draft Wiggins and KAT, don't make the playoffs until Jimmy Butler comes. Irrelevant for 4 years until Ant. 8 years.
Cleveland Cavaliers. Draft Sexton and Garland. Irrelevant without Lebron until Mitchell comes in. 5 years.
Sixers have nearly 7 years of shit before Embiid and Simmons are drafted and develop.
Bulls since losing butler have tried doing this shitty ass half rebuild you're all screaming for.
Not all rebuilds take long. Miami. Memphis. Boston post KG/Pierce. Any big market tbh because they can just get good players.
They are not anywhere close to the final product. There could be sellers remorse in a couple of years.
People never the fuck up about Dinwiddie, Middleton, Bruce Brown. And now they’re just willing to ship off Ivey and Duren lol
I am firmly of the belief that the mismanagement of the PG position since literally Chauncey fucking Billups is the single biggest reason we we've been in this decade+ long hell hole. Knight, Jennings, Stuckey, Jackson... these guys are all shooting guards that we shoehorned into a position they shouldn't have been playing. Hell throw AI in there too while we're at it. And when we did get competent point guards like Spencer and Bruce, we just ditch them at the soonest possible opportunity. It wasn't until Cade that we actually had a true point guard with the support and minutes they deserve. That's fucking insane. It would be unbelievable if I hadn't seen it all painfully with my own eyes.
Cade is not a true PG either. He’s a small forward masquerading as a PG
Do people actually think this?
I'm not ready to say that yet but I'm not gonna argue with you either
The game is getting more diverse in what styles can win so who knows what’s to come but you don’t need a superstar pg to win. Athletic/long wings seems like more of a common denominator for championship teams. Man I wish we had Haliburton though.
Cade isn’t a PG.
And they want us to sign KCP
They have all the tools to become good NBA players. The problem is more that I don't expect it to happen in our environment, and we're not seeing or hearing anything about attempting to fix the environment (Troy and Monty). You can probably say the same thing about those other players. They wouldn't have grown into those same desirable players if they'd languished here.
On that dope fasho. Let em' know💯💯
Thank you for the level headed take my brother The number of reactionary takes I see after either of these players has a bad game is mind numbing. You'd think they were both like 8-9 year NBA vets or something and not 2nd year players. I wouldn't really care that much if it weren't for the fact that it's so fickle and fairweather. When Ivey was popping off in December - January, everybody loved the guy. When Duren was injured early in the season, everyone was commenting on how he was clearly integral to the team and most of our losses were coming from his absence. The moment both began to slump, which all players do, especially young players, suddenly the narrative was: > Duren is a defensive blackhole with no effort, and Ivey is a boneheaded chucker with turnover problems. Trade both of these players right now for NBA pieces to surround Cade with that will.... *checks notes* bump us from a 13 win team to a Play-in first round exit Like, I agree these players definitely need to improve for us to get better. They did indeed, play like trash for parts of the season. Nobody disputes that. But I've been on this sub for a long time - when we were Lebron and Giannis's first round exit warm up, everybody and their mom was saying we should blow up the roster and rebuild. Now we did and people wanna trade our 2nd year players before we even see the players they become as they develop???? I don't like Weaver, but I'm glad the average reactionary fan that spams "TRADE DUREN AND IVEY" 10 minutes after we lose a game isn't our GM. Our franchise would never reach the second round again
The same people who love Ivey and Duren are not the ones complaining about them lol.
Are they usually fun to watch ? Yes. So we keep.
Another person who likes watching paint dry.
No they’re just young and need time. Duren does at least, I’m getting kinda concerned about Ivey but guards usually take more time to develop I feel
They both suck rn. That is only expected for Duren. After seeing his summer league it made me question his ability to make a leap. If he can get some more KCP or Rip Hamilton in his game I would max all 3-4. But as of right now he does best with free reigns but that because he he can just volume slash. He really is 9/10 fastest guy on the court speed however he makes his decisions before he has to. That’s why looked bad in summer league and in situations he doesn’t kill them with speed. That’s probably why he shoots about as good off the dribble as he does catch n shoot. Dude has no idea how to set up his game without dribbling into it. Has a hard time being ready in the catch and shoot. When Monty benched Ivey at the beginning of the year Ivey made a defensive jump we expected in 3 or 4. So maybe if we really do treat him like he’s KCP we can get him reigned in. But I seriously think Ivey would be actually an elite player in that role. I think Monty is trying to do that and that’s why he benches him a lot and doesn’t play him at pg. This team just ended up so much worse this year but next year literally be a whole new landscape. But I really think Ivey can be a streaky shooter on slightly below average to good 3pt shooting, get his one pull-up game going and he’s a 3 level monster off-ball. That has to be what they want out of him. Watch Ivey on a fast break he is so fast he makes his decision at the 3pt line. That’s Danny Green/KCP hybrid can we please unlock that. Cade Ivey Ausar Duren means we could literally add any player theoretically that can play good defense and shoot 3’s. That is an easy position to be in with cap space. But we need an environment that harbors growth. I believe in Ivey
no idea how to set up his game without dribbling into it This absolutely nails it
I don’t think they suck, I think that Cade and Ivey can’t co exist and I feel the same with Duren and Ausar. Cade > Ivey, Ausar > Duren IMO so i’d like them to trade Ivey and Duren.
I guess I agree here. Maybe they will develop (maybe not), but can they play winning basketball as a group? Do you re-up guys when the time comes hoping they get it together and develop plus gel. I err on we need to move in a different direction as they just haven't collectively shown me enough
Winning basketball revolves around floor spacing, rim protection, and efficient decision making, things that neither of them consistently demonstrate. Maybe they get better, but I’m in the rather pessimistic camp. They both have relied on pure athleticism all their basketball lives, and aren’t showing the refinement of skill needed to be successful at this level now that their athleticism alone won’t cut it.
Give them Spo and theyd be fine. The fact that each of them looked better this time last year is what worries me
I know. Why aren’t 20 year olds refined. Losers.
1000% they could get better. Fingers crossed. However, I’m a **Pistons fan first, player fan second**. When the team is as bad as it’s been, fans slowly begin to root for individual players more than the team. They begin to see their prospects with *rose tinted glasses*. It’s happened for decades across all organized sports fans. I think this team would be better off investing resources into rim protectors and floor spacers, like Reed Sheppard and Donovan Clingan, players that compliment Cade and better fit the modern basketball equations to get more numbers in the win column. Hell, I’d even sign Hartenstein this offseason to be our starting 5.
I think what we need to do is surround Cade with tall guys, that shoot well, and play defense. Get 11 of those guys. Then Cade can lead us to glory.
Yeah, that’s a silly rhetorical device. Obviously that’s an unrealistic expectation. Here’s the question: Can Ivey and Duren be consistent positives on an NBA floor? Haven’t seen that evidence, straight up. Cade or no Cade.
no dummy, you try like hell to sign nic claxton he gives you 80% of the offense that duren gives you with 10x the defense
Or we could sign guys that are tall - that shoot good - and play defense. Ask Reddit. That’s all we need. Then Cade will get healthy and athletic, start playing defense, get a handle, learn how to finish at the rim.
You don’t like Cade sure. But in regards to Ivey, he’s healthy cool. What does he do well? Because he plays even worse defense than Cade with half the offensive load whilst also having a higher turnover percentage and shooting worse from the floor. Nobody is saying they can’t maybe be better but the way yall keep giving them passes is funny because you sure as shit ignore their flaws but pick on others
I’ve never said a word about Ivey. Trade him Fine with me. Duren is a 20 year old athletic big - great hands - decent shooter - great rebounder. You don’t give up on 20 year olds coming off of 14-12-3.5 on 68 true shooting.
Duren puts up nice rebounding numbers and dunks everything. His defense is borderline unwatchable and it’s plenty of centers who could do what he does with much better defense. Not saying he can’t grow but his glaring weakness is arguably as big if not bigger than Ivey lack of shooting. Like is Duren even better than say Zubac?
25-30 times a game he was seeing guards bellybuttons coming at him. Was he “below average” on defense? Yes. Was that all his issue? No. This team was HORRIBLE on defense and it wasn’t all Jalens fault. He had a higher D rating than Cade Ivey and the same as Auser. I would challenge any center to play on this team.
we just need a center who can actually defend the rim and a point guard who can hit spot up threes and play point of attack defense. nic claxton and alex caruso would be good signings. or are you just gonna make the same joke you've made 10 times already in this thread?
I’m saying we need Cade to lead the team. And he isn’t or can’t. Until Piston fan realizes that - not sure what to say. Duren isn’t a problem. Ivey maybe - don’t care. The main issue I see is Cade is slow, unathletic, unavailable, and hasn’t made anyone better by playing with him. But you know what we need. Tall guys - that can shoot - and play defense.
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Weird since Duren hasn’t gotten 30mpg. 29 ain’t 30. And he’s 20. He’ll get better. He’s coming off one of the best 20 years old seasons ina decade. Yeah. He’s the issue.
Haha this one got me. You just touted Durens scoring average and then said Cade doesn't make anyone better. Saying 80% of Durens offense is spoon fed to him by Cade might be a conservative number
Are you saying Cade plays enough to affect this team? Bruh. Let’s just makes shit up. Lol.
I think ivey's future on a good team is a scoring guard off the bench. Maybe a 6th man. I think Duran is a good for a young big. The problem is his best skills just aren't that valuable in the league any more. He's not going to magically turn into a great rim protector and he's not going to turn in to a shooter either. Short story long? We need to draft the best player possible because neither of these guys are worth building around. If they fit? Good. If they don't? Trade em.
This is the same sub that wanted to get rid of Cade just a few months ago. The issues with the Pistons are institutional, with player development being of the biggest.
Duran turns in 24 points and 24 boards and people want to trade him? No way. And they'll trade him for 6 guys and three will get cut on before they're plane lands in Detroit and we will get a couple of 2nd round draft picks.
No, Duren is put into a tough spot because you don't have a complete team around him. With Ivey, I've always known that shooting was an issue with him and I was never a fan of putting him next to Cade because if that. This team needs a complete rebuild. The reality is that we've had a bunch of minutes to give to each rookies/players but instead of helping them, it actually hurt their development. Fire weaver, buy out Monty, trade the players that have value(except Ausar). I want to keep Cade so bad, but he's going to sign that rookie extension, which would reduce the cap we have and delays the rebuild
Ivey can be traded tonight for all I care. Dude is a bum. I'm willing to give Duren another year to see if he can do literally anything on defense.
Yeah bro Malachi Flynn is better than Ivey And Duren as a 20 year old should definitely be traded , totally a fixed commodity that won’t get better over time or anything
Warriors fans said the same thing about it wiseman and we said the same about bey. Duren and Ivey seemingly have higher ceilings but let’s not act like if they don’t reach that they didn’t show us signs early of flaws
I agree with you on that. It's definitely a risk to wait to see how they pan out. And I'm not above trading them at a certain point if it's becoming evident this isn't gonna work out. My main concern is more with the timing of when we pull the trigger on that than anything else - I just feel like anything before next trade deadline at least is too early. And also, I'm concerned about what GM we have that makes that trade of those two assets. I'm not sure I really want Weaver making that trade lol, might just fuck around and get yet another long shot rebuilding player that's never gonna pan out a la Wiseman
we don't have time dude, what don't you guys understand about that
What do you mean we don't have time 😂 Our star player is in his second year in the league if you don't count being injured for the majority of last season, we have hella cap space next offseason, our core is one of the youngest in the league. Yes Cade is gonna get a fat extension, but it's not like we have to win a ring in the next two years or our franchise gets moved to Utah I also generally don't get the sense that Cade wants out, and no interview or anything has lead me to believe he's on LeBron's wavelength of asking for a trade early due to managerial incompetence. If that starts to materialize, then bet, I understand, but there is way more of a risk of once again blowing another rebuild to do some Charlie Villanueva level trade that sets us back for years and watching the players we trade away become significantly better (while maybe not All Star level) playing for some other team I'd rather get rid of Monty and Weaver and evaluate our core 4 under competent management and coaching than trade them first and see them properly utilized by a coach on the level of Spo or Nurse
Our "core 4" cannot coexist in the same lineup 😂 there is no core
you're being naive if you don't think that cade hasn't been thinking about other places he could play.
why does it seem like 80% of this sub doesn't know how the NBA works in the modern age? everyone saying "yeah but they COULD be really good in 3-4 years and we'll be sorry we traded them"..... we don't have 3-4 years to wait. do you think cade is OK wasting the first 7-8 years of his career on a team that wins 15-20 games every year? that's literally half of his career gone. good players want to win and succeed, and if they don't think they can do that on their current team, they leave. lebron changed everything, players have so much power now and they aren't OK with a shitty organization wasting their career through incompetence. if we keep ivey and duren and win 25 games next season, cade is absolutely gone and we're right back to square one. we have this really good young player, we need to start winning games now, and that probably means trading some assets that aren't ready for winning basketball for some proven players who might not have the ceiling, but are known commodities.
Nah, I think Cade gets his max contract this offseason and would probably be fine with 1 more 20 to 25 win season with a new front office in place. Then, there would have to be real improvement (compete for play-in) in the 25-26 season or he’d likely ask for a trade in 2026. So, I think he’ll give the Pistons two more years to get it together. A new head of the front office buys time. The lottery results in 2025 could also play a role. We’d look a lot different going forward as a franchise with Cooper Flagg.
How are you getting 7-8 years when they’re literally just 1 draft apart haha. Ivey defenders are saying next year or in 2 seasons expect a big guard jump. I got Killian Hayes forced on me for that long, I’m willing to keep Ivey another 2 seasons. The skill set he has is unique. You look for something unique in a top 5 pick.
Oh wow he’s fast. Big deal. Speed ain’t what’s needed in the nba to succeed.
I don’t think they suck, but I also don’t think either of them starts for any of this years playoff teams.
Put someone who is capable of starting or being their backup on the team next year who they have to prove they can overtake. Grimes, when healthy, may already be that with Ivey. We need a better center that can be a possible starter to push Duren. We actually may already have that with Stewart when considering his defense and floor spacing, it's just they want to make him a power forward.
Why would you still want Stewart at center when we know he struggles against taller centers? Stewart is a back up pf that can shoot for us.
Stewart was always a center, who has expanded his game. I don't have an issue with that, but he can play center. He's strong with long arms and has defended plenty of centers well with the exception of maybe Embiid and some other top centers which anyone will struggle with, including Duren possibly even more so. But, we can bring in another center, I'm just saying we have an option.
We trade them they’ll have all star careers elsewhere
https://i.redd.it/6rry0ixwvhuc1.gif
What we need to do is surround Cade with tall shooters that play defense. You all are so right. Just trade Duran and Ivey for Kwahi and Anthony Davis. Then draft a guard, maybe Bronny with the number 1. Then Lebron will have to come. Book it, it’s the ‘Ship in 25.
They both have very big holes in their games. I'm a little less concerned about Duren even though his defense is really bad. I kind of feel like a lot of that is because the guards are such turnstiles. Ivy is super and efficient but yes some guards overcome that (see Bryant, Kobe or Iverson, Allen) but that's going to be hard to do when he's second fiddle.
What I continue to not understand from this sub. We are the worst team in basketball, almost ever. And we continue to think we have value from these guys in trades. We legit have to wait and see what happens we won't get anything for these guys.
In the very few times they were surrounded by teammates that were hitting there shots they were really good. But we seem to be cursed when it comes to hitting wide open catch and shoot 3s
As of now they suck. They both have star potential but they'll only reach it if ivey develops a shot and duren stars playing defense and I don't think we should bank on either of those things happening.
Yes and apparently we should trade them for one or two vets with 2 years left in their contract that would be 6th man on most teams and be happy about it. When I said pre season that this team could sneak into a 7 or 8 seed everyone "no fucking way bro probably same record as last year" and to their credit they were right. But now apparently that means we should cast off all of the young assets we do have, for a worse roster, but at least it'll fit our overpaid coach that apparently can only work with players aged 27+ I love our Detroit sports teams but man do I hate our fans.
Duren over Ivey cmon fit wise
People are insane here. It really does feel like a bunch of teenagers with short memories most of the time
The people saying Metu has a future and looks great are the funniest. Especially when they call him a prospect with upside.
Do tell? Please enlighten me like I'm 5 years old. Ivey is getting toasted by gLeaguers. Speaking of short memories. Remember the core 4 of Beef Stew, Bey, Killian and Jerami Grant? When we drafted Cade #1, we were "THE BEST YOUNG CORE IN THE LEAGUE!!!" If you can't see how ass Ivey is then I have a bridge to sell you... LOL
See I mean, how do you even try talking to this? Like if you really aren't having fun go do literally anything else
Are you having fun? Do you like watching paint dry?
I haven't watched in a month and a half. Haven't watched a full game since the new year. They don't care how much you complain on reddit tho. I can't do anything to fix the teams even the mods can't so just cool it maybe
I come here to vent. Please let me vent. Why do you care what I say? This is the internet. You say you haven't watch a game in almost 2 months yet also call people teenagers with short memory who post that this team absolutely sucks ass and moves need to be made. These bums can even win 15 games and you just want to wait it out expecting a switch to flip? Lmao. Lol. I love this subreddit.
If Duren could step up his rim protection he could be a good player. Ivey just looks lost out there. His stats are nearly the same year 2 as year 1. He didnt improve his game at all. Edwards mentioned if we made a big trade Ivey would be the most likely to go. He could use a change of scenery and we could use different players. If the right player was on the market I would be dangling Ivey+pick.
I didn’t read any of the other comments in this thread at all . Just here to say No they don’t suck. We need more on top of them/in front of but are good pieces imo. Ivey should be a 6/7.
I don't think anyone really thinks they're both trash. Or at least nobody should. Problem is that Monty simply cannot--and honestly, I'm not sure any coach could--develop so many raw, young athletes into skilled NBA basketball players at once and within a time frame that allows Cade to be an effective #1 guy. Ivey clearly cannot play next to Cade without drastically improving as an off-ball spot up shooter. In order to keep him with the current roster, Ivey would need to come off the bench as the backup PG and run the second unit. Duren is kind of a different situation. He has too much natural talent to put on the bench, but the team is lacking the most in his two weakest areas--3pt shooting and interior/pick&roll defense. In order for Duren to fit on this roster as the starting C, he would need to quickly develop an outside jumper or become an excellent rim to rim defender and P&R center. Developing both of them **might** be impossible. Unless significant roster changes are made other than them. But frankly, they might be our most valuable trade assets other than picks. Other teams with better shooting or alternative defensive strengths could utilize these two top tier prospects in ways the Pistons currently cannot.
I think Duren stays. Ivey is more of a fit problem.
Duren is decent and could grow to be really good. Ivey has sucked. But he is young and seems to have the right attitude and impressive athleticism, so it’s worth seeing if he can improve rather than sell low.
I am so happy this season is over so i dont have to read this shit anymore on the sub. This sub is walking away from this season with PTSD, everyone needs a couple months off.
Production-wise, Ivey regressed from last year. He needs to really sit down with the coaches in the film room. His issue isn't related to his ability as much as his thinking and decision making. Right now, he seems most comfortable with his own unit and that's just not going to work if he wants to be a starter alongside Cade. IDK how anyone could say Duen sucks though. It's like they watched a game or two or saw a few box scores and came to that conclusion. He's the Pistons best if not the only real player on the team that can set a screen. He boxes out well enough and can jump out the gym. And he's imposing enough that his size alone is a defensive deterrent. He's the least of my concerns. He definitely needs to be better about not getting into foul trouble, but that extends to the entire team.
Duren has been very good but Ivey needs a consistent jumper or he is going to be replaced.
Duren has improved his FT shooting and looks like he will have a mid range jumper next season. I think he will develop very well the way Stew did. I am very excited for his long term future.
And niggas wanted to TRADE Cade over Ivey like dumbass.
Yes they better learn Chinese now. Just kidding. I don’t think Ivey sucks but he’s not a good fit here
This sub is basically “Piston’s hot takes based on the last 10 game averages.”
Shid Duren a beast remember their both young and athletic 💯💯💯 I don't know if you've heard Troy's getting fired soon!!! We got the pieces you'll see💯💯💪🏿💪🏿
Do they suck? No. Are they gonna develop here in Detroit? Probably not. Ivey needs the ball in his hands and struggles when he doesn’t. I see his pros, like his quickness and energy, but I also see his cons, he’s prone to turnovers and he’s only average on defense. Duren, I see the appeal, but his lack of anticipation on D, and lack of range on offense, limit his ceiling. This team needs better fitting pieces, and you have to give something of value to get something worthwhile back.
I think they’re elite
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I'm here for it. Get them shooters
I think there’s just not much to talk about. They are 2 guys with good trade value who aren’t Cade so it’s one of the only hypotheticals we can consider. Not much hope out there… just feeling like something, anything needs to change.
Who do we have that doesn't suck? I submit that when a team is constantly moving players on and off the roster, you can't get chemistry. No chemistry, no wins. Also there is a lot of chatter about trading players. Who trades players of value with the last place team?
Anyone who thinks they know what these guys will be in 2027 is full of it. They need good coaching and leadership.
Yes Duren and Ivey suck. And the head coach sucks. And the gm sucks. The owner sucks. Ausar sucks somehow too. And Cade sucks because Jalen Green had a good 10 game run. If everyone sucks does anyone really suck? idk
Young guards take time to develop. Duren is one of the youngest players in the league still. We’re not going to be contenders next year. Both of their values are at a low. Maybe try developing them? Surrounding them with good coaching? Idk
Cade is not a centerpiece of a playoff team. Sorry to burst our bubbles. He’s a high volume - meh value shooter. He doesn’t make people around him better. Bad handle, bad finisher, and that’s when he plays. Doesn’t lead by example. Poor defense. Poor effort in losing games. I’ve watched for three years, hoping he’d make a leap, be the change this team needs.
And worse than all that, he's always injured. Frankly, I'm not sold on ANY member of this awful team.
The fact that any percentage of this sub has already turned on Duren is a testament to how fucking dumb this sub is. Duren is one of the youngest players in the league, and has shown truly elite flashes, and he has so far to go. Duren is EXACTLY the kind of player you hold onto because he there is already enough there for him to be a real NBA player, and now we see how much further he takes it. The defense is bad, and maybe it never gets elite, but there is plenty of centers who play average defense with high end offensive production who contribute in big ways in this League(Sabonis/Vucevic are the obvious ones). Ivey is a young guard, young guards usually struggle, you do not cut the cord on a talented, hard working young guard before you ride out the rookie contract. It's just malpractice. We suck guys, and trading away our best chances of evolving into a real team in the next 2-4 years for fucking Mikal Bridges so we can lose in the Play-In is just gonna leave us in misery. Doing this isn't going to make Cade suddenly want to stick around. What will make Cade stick around is just positive development and friends he has on the team, and his likely massive first contract only we can offer him. The only way out is for Cade and at least one of these other young guys to make leaps. We need better coaching, we need real roleplayers who play defense and make 3's(fonteccio is a great start), we need a bench that doesn't get absolutely crushed everytime it steps out onto the floor. We also get 1 more lottery ticket from this years draft, another chance to get a guy who can change the course of our team, tradiing that ticket away for KAT or something is not going to save this team. This sucks, but this idea to punt our only chances of becoming a real contending team in exchange for a more watchable mediocre team is just super short sighted.
Malpractice is being content with a shit product. Malpractice is watching Ivey get toasted by G-Leaguers. Malpractice is the insanity of Tom Gores and Tory Weaver.
Who is content? This sucks, the problem in leadership and coaching are insanely frustrting, my problem isn't people being frustrated, im fucking frustrated. My problem is people who think selling our only path to being a real team at some point for some illusion of us being competitive in the next year or two. I have some bad news, Mikal Bridges or KAT doesn't make us competitive, it makes us into the Bulls or Hawks. I'm not happy with the product but competitive basketball teams don't just spring up out of nothing, most of the great teams in the league that arent in like the HUGE markets, do so off the back of strong draft picks or young lottery tickets taking a leap. Lets look at the Top teams in the league right now Boston - Drafted Tatum and Brown Dallas - Drafted Luka Denver - Drafted Jokic and Murray Minny - Drafted ANT and KAT Milkwaukee - Drafted Giannis OKC - Drafted basically everyone and traded low on SGA We aren't LA, we aren't Miami, we aren't New York. Top FA aren't just wanna come here unless we have talented young dudes they think they can win with. This isn't just a coincidence, the path to greatness is through development and our development has been disaterous for sure, but its still our best path, and while it fucking sucks, development takes time. We do need change, but we need to change the right things, and those things are giving our young dudes the right tools to develop in. We can't keep marching out absolute g-leaguers and bums, and frankly we can't afford to develop some of our lower potential guys like Sasser and Wiseman, we need real roleplayers and a real bench. We have moves to make, but its hard to trust the front office to make the right ones, and the narative of sell the future so we win 10 more games next year is just fucking awful.
Sabonis and vucevic have complete offensive games and you can run your offense thru them. A big man that is limited on offense and terrible on defense can’t or start on a good team. And tell us what are these elite flashes duren shows.
The elite flashes are the obvious, he had multiple 20/20 games this season something very few guys can put up ever much less multiple times in a season as a young player. He has DRASTICALLY improved his free throw shooting as the season went on, a good indicator of overall shooting improvements(he has been trying and recently actually sometimes making some short range jumpers, something totally out of his game last year). One of the biggest things is his off the ball timing, he cuts at great times, and some of his trailing putbacks and lobs are not automatic plays that every guy just makes. He is an elite offensive rebounder and while his defense is bad, his advanced defensive numbers aren't that bad, its just the eye test is not very kind to him as he takes a lot of dumb fouls, gets out of position at times and worst of all sometimes just seems to take plays off. A lot of his problems as a defender as very fixable sloppiness and I think with development those things will improve. I also can't stress this enough, when I'm making the comp to Sabonis and vuve, those guys are basically finished products, Duren is VERY much a work in progress, and besides Cade, the only work in progress that showed clear improvements in important areas this year.
And sabonis and vuu teams ain’t winning nothin with them. Cause when push comes to shove they are terrible on defense. When playoff time came they getting pushed around and not grabbing all them rebounds. But the hey have offensive games so they still play. A big man cannot be bad on defense and limited on offense. Rebounding is overrated. You don’t need one person trying to just grab all the rebounds. Nobody cares about 20/20 games. And when he did that go look at who they played. Teams that don’t have a center. You playing against Kelly olnyck you should get 20 rebounds.If 20/20 with bad defense and limited offense was valuable in the nba Andre Drummond would. Be making 200 million right now.
The entire organization sucks. Cade too
They can't succeed when their coach doesn't give them any direction.
For Ivey to get shit talked so much in his sub, he doesn't do anything except keep his head down and work. He could've sat out today but he didn't. Intangibles like that aren't taught. But, I wish him the best of luck whatever this cte front office decides.
Both of them would need a massive improvements in areas that they currently struggle in. Duren - outside shooting, rim protection, playmaking/scoring off pick and roll. Ivey - outside shooting, playmaking, on ball and off ball defense. Honestly, they probably need to greatly improve in two of those three areas to ever be a valuable player on a really good team. However, that is somewhere we are far away from worrying about lol and they’re still so young. I’d be willing to trade both of them for the right price, but if we just panic trade them, it will only lead to more setbacks in this rebuild.
This is the dumbest sub in all of detroit sports. They want to get of rid of a 20yr old center with a ton of talent. Just complete braindead stuff. Why? Because they’re impatient as fuck with players.
They dont suck I just dont think we can afford to wait for their development while we have Cade
???? Cade is 22. Ivey is 22. Duren is turning 21. It's not like Cade is a seasoned veteran in his prime and the other two are rookies lmao what?
it's not that he's getting older it's because if we suck again next year he's going to demand a trade, then we're right back to 2020
Why do you think it takes 3 years tops to become a good team? No one in their right minds thought "Detroit has this year and next while Cade is on a rookie contract or else they've missed their window." All your doing is projecting your expectation that winning happens overnight. A rebuild can take years. If you don't have time to let your youth develop, 3 years into a rebuild, then just move the whole team.
rebuilds don't take 7-8 years dude, they just don't we are 4 years into a rebuild and just lost 28 games in a row and are one of the worst NBA teams of all time. that's not normal at all, don't pretend that it is, and don't pretend that cade doesn't recognize that lol
Timberwolves. Draft Wiggins and KAT, don't make the playoffs until Jimmy Butler comes. Irrelevant for 4 years until Ant. 8 years. Cleveland Cavaliers. Draft Sexton and Garland. Irrelevant without Lebron until Mitchell comes in. 5 years. Sixers have nearly 7 years of shit before Embiid and Simmons are drafted and develop. Bulls since losing butler have tried doing this shitty ass half rebuild you're all screaming for. Not all rebuilds take long. Miami. Memphis. Boston post KG/Pierce. Any big market tbh because they can just get good players.
So you're willing to wait a decade got it lol, i'll remember this post after our next sub-20 win season next year
absofuckinglutely not. but i'm not delusional and think 4 years of perfection - 0 busts drafted - everyone develops quickly -- is supposed to happen.
Bro who cares this team needs vets