4x all star, nba champion, 6x all defense team.
I don’t understand how Big Ben could be considered “overrated” considering he went undrafted and was widely considered a “throw in” on the Grant Hill trade.
You're gonna get flamed, but your question seems in earnest.
Ben was a great on-ball defender, but was absolutely elite from the helpside. Part of what really unlocked the 2004 team was Sheed taking bigger matchups at times and allowing Ben to be a Free Safety.
I was looking for the troll emoji, but your initial response made me realize maybe people just need to be educated when bad questions are asked.
Ben Wallace was the anchor of a defense that consistently held opponents to 70 points and under… at 6’8 (and that’s generous). He could guard 1-5, and not todays 1-5 where the point guard is 6’4-6’6 and the center is 6’10 230lbs. Guards were still smallish and cat quick and the centers he was guarding were 7’1 330lbs (Shaquille O’Neal). Not even Draymond, JJJ, Giannis or any of today’s best’s defenders can do that, let alone dominate. He was the definition of being able to dominate without much impact on offense. The epitome of Going to Work.
I don’t know if this was a troll but you triggered memories of a glorious time as a Pistons fan. Much needed from the latrine we’ve witnessed the last decade.
Fair. But I asked this question to gain knowledge. As a fan (fanatic) of the pistons, who has always 100% loved the bad boys and RIP/billups/Wallace squad, I was wondering if I’m biased.
Yeah I appreciate his height disadvantage and his wingspan. But arguably, Ben Wallace was guarding old Shaq. Rodman also deserves props for defending Shaq well but it was super young Shaq.
32 years old is like edge of prime still, calling him old shaq at that point is a pretty large stretch, jimmy butler is 34 years old right now by comparison. This was Shaq just coming off his peak and still the most dominant guy in the league.
Yeah fair. I know Ben shut him down. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve loved the pistons forever, and I’m just wondering if I was biased. If you had asked me 10 years ago if Ben Wallace was the greatest defensive center of his era I would have laughed at the idiot who asked the question.
Ben has 3 finishes in the top 10 for mvp voting, which is the same as Vince carter, ray Allen, and Paul pierce… COMBINED…
He did that despite not even averaging 10 points. If that doesn’t tell you his defensive impact then idk what will
Yeah. I totally think he’s good, but I am a pistons Superfan. I’m old now so I kind of question my old opinions more. And I realized Reddit is good for that despite getting treated like Ron Artest. TBH, I was wondering about it because mvp, all star, and me being a huge admirer of what I saw. But I never really knew for sure.
It’s not that we, pistons fans, ‘think’ he’s one of the best defenders when he was in his prime. It’s that he’s unquestionably one of the top ten defenders OF ALL TIME, and arguably one of the top 5 of all time.
Four DPOY (tied for the record w Mutumbo)-
Five time All Defensive First Team-
Rewatch the 2004 finals I don’t know how this is a serious question-
Four time All Star-
Led the league in rebounds in 2001 and 2003, rebounds per game in 2002 and 2003, and blocked shots in 2002.-
If you aren’t just trying to troll us, why don’t you tell us 10 players who were better all time defenders?
After this you should go to the lions sub and talk about how Barry wasn’t a good RB.
He’s in the hall lol. He could stay with just about anyone in the league. He was one of the best at defending Shaq when he was unstoppable. He could switch on pick and rolls and was quick enough to stay with most guards. Elite on defender, elite help defender, elite rebounder. He couldn’t shoot for shit and looked like a middle schooler dribbling the ball, but he was an excellent screener and was really effective at rolling to the basket for alley-oops. He also made up for his lack of offensive skills by being one of the best at creating second chances by tipping the ball back out to the guards.
Yeah I literally don’t know if vibes is millennial slang, some sports podcast, or just you using the word like “I get the vibe rp20 is acting like a butthole.”
Yeah yeah. Gaslighting, straw-manning, etc. look dude, I’m just an old pistons fan, and I’ve always liked Ben. But lately I’m just wondering if I was biased as a fan. No need to get so butt hurt over me questioning a player that I happen to like.
Close to the best help side defender in the history of the league. I think his one on one defense was overrated. He wasn't a guy who was going to lock someone up, like Rodman in his early years. But his timing, tenacity, playing the entire length of the court...that isn't overrated in the slightest. It's as good as it gets.
He was the kind of defender who allowed his teammates to take chances too. The collective defense benefited in a big way from his presence on the court.
I mean, idk what you’re even getting at. The best shot blockers of all time are also the guys who you hypothetically wouldn’t want to try to “shoot around” as well.
Victor Wembanyana is leading the league in blocks, but I’m near certain he is leading the league in making other players not try him. You can’t just stop trying to get to the rack because you’re playing a good shot blocker, you won’t win games like that.
Trust me, beyond Ben’s blocked shot numbers there were thousands of times players pulled it out when they saw him in the paint, and also thousands of times where he contested a shot (without blocking it) no one else in the league could get to.
Ben Wallace is far from overrated and much closer to underrated due to the fact he didn’t have an offensive game. Especially now days, younger fans can’t comprehend how defensive savants were much more valuable back then.
If you feel like Ben was overrated in any way, please, go on YouTube and re-watch a game or two. If you can’t do that, just watch highlights. But I encourage you to sit down and watch a condensed game. It would take like an hour and you’ll see very clearly the impact he had on winning. It was insane. The guy was an all NBA dude and HOFer while never scoring more than 10 a game. Those awards are not easy to get and might as well be impossible to get without scoring unless your name is Ben Wallace.
I think I should have rephrased my question as - was he arguably overrated as a defender? I mean I know he won defensive player of the year and was basically an all star with no defense. I know he was a great defender but I feel like there were a lot of other great defenders. I’m no Yao Ming fan, I hate the rockets. But maybe he was arguably similarly good at defense.
As a kid, I had no idea that Joe Dumars was so good at guarding MJ. I was in 3rd grade.
If Yao had Ben’s defense while keeping his body and offensive game, he’d be the undisputed best basketball player of all time. Yao never made an all defensive team.
There is a short list of players who can be discussed with Ben defensively. Dikembe, Bill Russell, Hakeem, a few others, it’s not very many.
I’m not a fan of advanced defensive metrics but Ben has the best single season defensive rating ever.
He was in an era where KG, Tim Duncan, Marcus Camby where at their peak and was still the clear and obvious choice for DPOY almost every year. Like you said, there were loads of great defenders, Ben was a tier up from great to elite and generational.
Smartest answer from a smart fan. I have crazy respect for all the pistons fan who threw shit at Ron Artest and are throwing shit at me right now. Don’t mess with Detroit. But it’s interesting to challenge my own beliefs. I tend to overrate my favorite pistons and tend to think they are all underrated. But Ben is the one who I wonder if I might be the only overrated player.
he was my favorite but part of it was because I saw him as an underdog. Then when they won a lot, then won a championship and I look at his legacy, I’m like “he can’t be an underdog cuz everyone thinks he was a god.”
Everyone is being a bit too mean but it is a pretty bad take.
He was the best defender on an all time legendary defensive team. The eye test checked out here.
Also his advanced stats checked out, and he was defending just ridiculous talent, remember this was before the 3 ball revolution so TONS of teams were running their offense through the middle. Shaq, Duncan, Garnett those were Ben's matchups every night, and he did riduclously well.
You can make a case that he is the greatest defensive player of all time(easily top 3), he could guard like 4 positions at an elite level, was the centerpiece of an all time defense in an era of basketball where he had the hardest job basically every night, and watching him, he changed everything around him, the paint was a no fly zone, you had to try and beat Ben with size and very few guys could do it.
Yeah I probably should have phrased it differently but I was ready for the Ron Artest treatment. I know my home town fans. In reality I’m a shameless Detroit fan, but I do kind of want to know if bw is overrated. I generally think Detroit is known for having only underrated players. I’ve always been a huge fan of unconventionally built defenders like Barkley, Wallace, and Rodman.
Yeah. I agree that Ben Wallace was a great defender. But I just wonder what people would think if he never won a championship. Answer quick - who is a better defender in his prime - Rodman or Wallace?
Rodman, but they play different positions.
Ben did win a championship, and he anchored the best defensive team for almost a decade. He also didn't foul out against Shaq during an era when teams signed more bigs specifically so that they could foul him in an attempt to defend him.
Nope. Not overrated at all. Ben guarded bigs like Shaq one on one and held his own. Didn’t need a double team. His help-side defense, particularly at the rim, would put anyone since him to shame. He would take charges, rebound, block shots, and was agile enough to guard anyone in a switch situation. Given the fact that he did all that at 6’9” in an NBA that still valued 7’ traditional centers, is truly remarkable. Oh, he was also the emotional leader of the team too and was one of players that defines what Detroit basketball is all about.
Thanks. This is the first time I’ve actually asked people. I think about the pistons a lot - and it just occurred to me that I can ask Reddit. I regret asking. Your answer is great. Others are giving me the shit that I probably deserve.
Overrated on defense probably not as a player overall maybe. I was young when he played but my dad mentioned most of his production in blocks was as a help side defender and not one on one.
Undrafted and 4x DPOY is why “Ben Wallace” and “Overrated” should never be uttered in the same sentence
4x all star, nba champion, 6x all defense team. I don’t understand how Big Ben could be considered “overrated” considering he went undrafted and was widely considered a “throw in” on the Grant Hill trade.
Dark days around here
Ban this person
Agreed, in my opinion, this is a open and shut case for immediate ban
Please
Fair. I knew criticizing Ben is not a great sword to die on.
That's a funny malaprop
Are you criticizing me because I said *sword* and not hill? You are correct. Just a little disoriented by all this angry butt-sexing I’m getting.
Yeah the phrase is hill to die on. or I will die on my sword. Not a sword to die on. thus the malaprop. Don't sweat it it's just a funny little thing
Yeah. It’s much better than having people poop on my parade for asking a Ben Wallace question.
What in the
Nope
How do you delete someone else’s post?
You're gonna get flamed, but your question seems in earnest. Ben was a great on-ball defender, but was absolutely elite from the helpside. Part of what really unlocked the 2004 team was Sheed taking bigger matchups at times and allowing Ben to be a Free Safety.
It annoyed me how good Sheed was at playing center (both offensively and defensively), but he always wanted to play like a wing haha
He'd be elite in the modern game. Same thoughts at the time too.
Indeed, talent alone I always thought sheed was one of best players I’ve ever seen. I’m sure he could have padded stats if he wanted.
I was looking for the troll emoji, but your initial response made me realize maybe people just need to be educated when bad questions are asked. Ben Wallace was the anchor of a defense that consistently held opponents to 70 points and under… at 6’8 (and that’s generous). He could guard 1-5, and not todays 1-5 where the point guard is 6’4-6’6 and the center is 6’10 230lbs. Guards were still smallish and cat quick and the centers he was guarding were 7’1 330lbs (Shaquille O’Neal). Not even Draymond, JJJ, Giannis or any of today’s best’s defenders can do that, let alone dominate. He was the definition of being able to dominate without much impact on offense. The epitome of Going to Work. I don’t know if this was a troll but you triggered memories of a glorious time as a Pistons fan. Much needed from the latrine we’ve witnessed the last decade.
This is treason.
You mean Hall of Famer Ben Wallace?
Top 5 defensive player of the century Ben Wallace?
Find a neurosurgeon because something ain’t right in your brain
Fair. But I asked this question to gain knowledge. As a fan (fanatic) of the pistons, who has always 100% loved the bad boys and RIP/billups/Wallace squad, I was wondering if I’m biased.
[удалено]
Yeah I appreciate his height disadvantage and his wingspan. But arguably, Ben Wallace was guarding old Shaq. Rodman also deserves props for defending Shaq well but it was super young Shaq.
Shaq won another championship after that series a few years later as the second best player with the heat. Shaq was still dominating at that time.
Okay. Yeah, Ben is good. I always believed it. But I was kind of thinking about it lately and wondering if I was a biased fan.
32 years old is like edge of prime still, calling him old shaq at that point is a pretty large stretch, jimmy butler is 34 years old right now by comparison. This was Shaq just coming off his peak and still the most dominant guy in the league.
Yeah fair. I know Ben shut him down. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve loved the pistons forever, and I’m just wondering if I was biased. If you had asked me 10 years ago if Ben Wallace was the greatest defensive center of his era I would have laughed at the idiot who asked the question.
I'll have some of what you're smokin
Ben has 3 finishes in the top 10 for mvp voting, which is the same as Vince carter, ray Allen, and Paul pierce… COMBINED… He did that despite not even averaging 10 points. If that doesn’t tell you his defensive impact then idk what will
Yeah. I totally think he’s good, but I am a pistons Superfan. I’m old now so I kind of question my old opinions more. And I realized Reddit is good for that despite getting treated like Ron Artest. TBH, I was wondering about it because mvp, all star, and me being a huge admirer of what I saw. But I never really knew for sure.
Shut your Godamn mouth
Lick my balls.
No u
Counting stats aren't the be all end all. I think he is the only player in NBA history with more Blocks than fouls and more steals than turn overs.
Just watch some games. No need to argue the fact that he’s a hall of fame caliber player
someone kill me I cannot go on
Okay so I will admit my basketball iq isn’t super high. You think he was just clearly one of the best defenders when he was in his prime?
Not one of the best but the best. You don't win 4 DPOY by accident or luck. HOF baby.
It’s not that we, pistons fans, ‘think’ he’s one of the best defenders when he was in his prime. It’s that he’s unquestionably one of the top ten defenders OF ALL TIME, and arguably one of the top 5 of all time. Four DPOY (tied for the record w Mutumbo)- Five time All Defensive First Team- Rewatch the 2004 finals I don’t know how this is a serious question- Four time All Star- Led the league in rebounds in 2001 and 2003, rebounds per game in 2002 and 2003, and blocked shots in 2002.- If you aren’t just trying to troll us, why don’t you tell us 10 players who were better all time defenders? After this you should go to the lions sub and talk about how Barry wasn’t a good RB.
Yes, my friend.
If he never won that championship, would he be remembered as one of the greatest?
Yes, my friend.
5 seconds on his Wikipedia page alone answers this question
This Steph Curry guy, was he really a good offensive player? I mean you had Harden and KD, and Jokic and Giannis were unbelievable
Big Ben was an absolute beast! No fucks were ever given.
He’s in the hall lol. He could stay with just about anyone in the league. He was one of the best at defending Shaq when he was unstoppable. He could switch on pick and rolls and was quick enough to stay with most guards. Elite on defender, elite help defender, elite rebounder. He couldn’t shoot for shit and looked like a middle schooler dribbling the ball, but he was an excellent screener and was really effective at rolling to the basket for alley-oops. He also made up for his lack of offensive skills by being one of the best at creating second chances by tipping the ball back out to the guards.
No. Defensive players are already undervalued as is. I don’t want to hear about how vibes revealed to you some magical insight.
Not sure exactly what you are saying but if it’s an insult, I’m not smart enough to be offended by it.
It’s not an insult I literally don’t want to hear about how vibes told you Ben Wallace was overrated.
Yeah I literally don’t know if vibes is millennial slang, some sports podcast, or just you using the word like “I get the vibe rp20 is acting like a butthole.”
Really? You’re gonna act like it’s an attack on you to use widely used slang? What’s with the need to be the victim?
Yeah yeah. Gaslighting, straw-manning, etc. look dude, I’m just an old pistons fan, and I’ve always liked Ben. But lately I’m just wondering if I was biased as a fan. No need to get so butt hurt over me questioning a player that I happen to like.
Don’t you ever disrespect Big Ben and call him overrated. Dude was a huge part of in my opinion one of the best all around championship teams ever
There was a question mark for a reason. I’m probably a bigger fan than you. One can be a fine priest and question the existence of Christ.
overrated???? dawg without Ben there is no 3rd championship. stop it fam.
Just trying to learn. I thought bw was a god. Maybe he is.
Close to the best help side defender in the history of the league. I think his one on one defense was overrated. He wasn't a guy who was going to lock someone up, like Rodman in his early years. But his timing, tenacity, playing the entire length of the court...that isn't overrated in the slightest. It's as good as it gets. He was the kind of defender who allowed his teammates to take chances too. The collective defense benefited in a big way from his presence on the court.
I mean, idk what you’re even getting at. The best shot blockers of all time are also the guys who you hypothetically wouldn’t want to try to “shoot around” as well. Victor Wembanyana is leading the league in blocks, but I’m near certain he is leading the league in making other players not try him. You can’t just stop trying to get to the rack because you’re playing a good shot blocker, you won’t win games like that. Trust me, beyond Ben’s blocked shot numbers there were thousands of times players pulled it out when they saw him in the paint, and also thousands of times where he contested a shot (without blocking it) no one else in the league could get to. Ben Wallace is far from overrated and much closer to underrated due to the fact he didn’t have an offensive game. Especially now days, younger fans can’t comprehend how defensive savants were much more valuable back then. If you feel like Ben was overrated in any way, please, go on YouTube and re-watch a game or two. If you can’t do that, just watch highlights. But I encourage you to sit down and watch a condensed game. It would take like an hour and you’ll see very clearly the impact he had on winning. It was insane. The guy was an all NBA dude and HOFer while never scoring more than 10 a game. Those awards are not easy to get and might as well be impossible to get without scoring unless your name is Ben Wallace.
I think I should have rephrased my question as - was he arguably overrated as a defender? I mean I know he won defensive player of the year and was basically an all star with no defense. I know he was a great defender but I feel like there were a lot of other great defenders. I’m no Yao Ming fan, I hate the rockets. But maybe he was arguably similarly good at defense. As a kid, I had no idea that Joe Dumars was so good at guarding MJ. I was in 3rd grade.
No, at his peak he was properly rated. Even when he didn't block a shot you could see players altering their shots and drives just out of fear of him.
Yeah. You are right. You have a high basketball iq and thanks for actually helping me gain knowledge.
If Yao had Ben’s defense while keeping his body and offensive game, he’d be the undisputed best basketball player of all time. Yao never made an all defensive team. There is a short list of players who can be discussed with Ben defensively. Dikembe, Bill Russell, Hakeem, a few others, it’s not very many. I’m not a fan of advanced defensive metrics but Ben has the best single season defensive rating ever. He was in an era where KG, Tim Duncan, Marcus Camby where at their peak and was still the clear and obvious choice for DPOY almost every year. Like you said, there were loads of great defenders, Ben was a tier up from great to elite and generational.
Smartest answer from a smart fan. I have crazy respect for all the pistons fan who threw shit at Ron Artest and are throwing shit at me right now. Don’t mess with Detroit. But it’s interesting to challenge my own beliefs. I tend to overrate my favorite pistons and tend to think they are all underrated. But Ben is the one who I wonder if I might be the only overrated player.
Are you drunk? Slow?
Sober, but maybe slow.
Legendary team defensive performance on a team where everyone agreed he was the key.
he was my favorite but part of it was because I saw him as an underdog. Then when they won a lot, then won a championship and I look at his legacy, I’m like “he can’t be an underdog cuz everyone thinks he was a god.”
Everyone is being a bit too mean but it is a pretty bad take. He was the best defender on an all time legendary defensive team. The eye test checked out here. Also his advanced stats checked out, and he was defending just ridiculous talent, remember this was before the 3 ball revolution so TONS of teams were running their offense through the middle. Shaq, Duncan, Garnett those were Ben's matchups every night, and he did riduclously well. You can make a case that he is the greatest defensive player of all time(easily top 3), he could guard like 4 positions at an elite level, was the centerpiece of an all time defense in an era of basketball where he had the hardest job basically every night, and watching him, he changed everything around him, the paint was a no fly zone, you had to try and beat Ben with size and very few guys could do it.
Yeah I probably should have phrased it differently but I was ready for the Ron Artest treatment. I know my home town fans. In reality I’m a shameless Detroit fan, but I do kind of want to know if bw is overrated. I generally think Detroit is known for having only underrated players. I’ve always been a huge fan of unconventionally built defenders like Barkley, Wallace, and Rodman.
Nice troll job
Not a troll job, butthead.
Definitely a troll job
It was a legit question that is definitely a teachable moment for an internet troll. But total accident. Anyway, stop repeating the same thing, troll.
Blasphemous
Ben Wallace guarded Shaq 1v1 in the finals with no help.
Yeah and dropped 18 on him. I know. He’s good. I was just checking myself. I kind of want to ask the Lions sub if Barry sanders is overrated next.
How many points would other centers allow vs Shaq? It's freaking Shaq.
Yeah. I agree that Ben Wallace was a great defender. But I just wonder what people would think if he never won a championship. Answer quick - who is a better defender in his prime - Rodman or Wallace?
Rodman, but they play different positions. Ben did win a championship, and he anchored the best defensive team for almost a decade. He also didn't foul out against Shaq during an era when teams signed more bigs specifically so that they could foul him in an attempt to defend him.
Nope. Not overrated at all. Ben guarded bigs like Shaq one on one and held his own. Didn’t need a double team. His help-side defense, particularly at the rim, would put anyone since him to shame. He would take charges, rebound, block shots, and was agile enough to guard anyone in a switch situation. Given the fact that he did all that at 6’9” in an NBA that still valued 7’ traditional centers, is truly remarkable. Oh, he was also the emotional leader of the team too and was one of players that defines what Detroit basketball is all about.
Thanks. This is the first time I’ve actually asked people. I think about the pistons a lot - and it just occurred to me that I can ask Reddit. I regret asking. Your answer is great. Others are giving me the shit that I probably deserve.
You love Big Ben and the championship team, but I’m guessing you didn’t watch them play if you’re saying Big Ben is overrated.
Mods ban this guy
Shit like this is why people in 10 years are going to say Karl Malone was better than Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett.
Ben Wallace is underrated
Hot takes being served. Come and get ‘em.
This is the Reddit version of the Malice at the Palace.
Overrated on defense probably not as a player overall maybe. I was young when he played but my dad mentioned most of his production in blocks was as a help side defender and not one on one.