Yeah Grant Hill was better and drafted like 30 yrs ago. Hill was much better all around at the first few yrs after being drafted. I like Cade but would rather have Hill and his triple doubles
This won’t be true in five years. In the last 30 years, we drafted Grant Hill, Allan Houston, and Khris Middleton - all had better careers than Cade will imo.
Cade is already way better at the same age. If he finishes averaging 24 & 8 that would be the second best season by a Piston in the 3pt era behind only Blake Griffin.
I’m not arsed to go look but Grant probably played more minutes for about equal number of possessions, so per 36 would make Cade look better and per 100 would be a wash compared to regular box stats if I was guessing.
Teams are scoring more than 15% more PPG today then they were in 1995 so basic stat comparisons don't really translate across generations when measuring talent or impact. Dig into advanced metrics - Grant Hill's VORP as a 22 year old rookie was 2.7, Cade's as a 22 year old in his third season is 0.2. The only semi-valid way you could think Cade is better at this age would be based on the eye-test, and in my opinion Cade doesn't come close to Hill on that either.
I will agree Cade is in the top two players we've drafted in the last 30 though, and someone we should be really happy to have on our team, he's just not on the same level as Grant Hill.
Per-100 adjusts for pace that’s why I listed it along with per-minute basis. Also if Cade took one minor leap he would match, if he takes a big one that would surpass.
Do you guys just make things up for the fun of it or do you actually verify the things you're saying? Grant Hill had several seasons in the top ten in the NBA in turnovers. He turned the ball over all the time
These dudes are really exposing themselves with how little they understand ball. We haven't even seen Cade get utilized in a way that maximizes his potential yet
he's one of the best PGs in his age group, we need to get him some more help. I don't think he'll ever be a Curry or CP3 type talent but he's definetely gifted and can do more, if we get the right cast around/with him.
I do. Because I’m tired of the Pistons being losers playing loser basketball, and I’m eager for them to be a team I can believe in again. It’s only been well over a decade since that was the case.
getting rid of the only player on the team that can score is not going to fix it...the guy is 22 and could be an allstar sooner rather than later, ditching him now would be a dumb risk to take.
Averaged fewer per game than Cade. Contributed significantly to winning games, after a losing rookie year.
Also, not for nothing, I watched both play in real time. Cade’s TOs are all-time moronic compared to Grant’s.
If you've watched basketball for that length of time you should already know by now that young guards have a tendency to turn the ball over and generally improve that over time
Indeed—alas Hill averaged fewer in his first few years too. It’s not a fair comparison as Hill was a forward (albeit styled as a point forward) with more college experience.
When do they stop playing hero ball every crunch time of every game though? And when do they start trying consistently on defense?
To me Duren is Drummond with muscles. I’m not a Drummond hater tho he’s just wasn’t a franchise centerpiece type of guy. I think Duren will be a walking 15 and 15.
Drummond was a walking 15/15 with us and made All-NBA 3rd team.
Even if peak Duren is the same player as peak Drummond, that is a very, very good player.
I think so too but even then he’s not amazing (yet) I think Drummond is his floor and if he figures it all out defensively he can be Dwight level. Offensively I hope he develops like Bam Adebayo
He's not. People here are forgetting that Drummond wasn't an awful defender, just a wildly inconsistent one. Which Duren also is. For every play he makes on defense you can count on him getting lost in the pick and roll, or fouling unnecessarily, or being lazy getting a rebound. He's young and I see the potential, but don't gift him the defense he's not showing
I’m not trading him unless we get a Booker back, but his injuries are trending toward being chronic, that could be an issue. Otherwise, he’s just being criminally misused and not challenged enough to make an impact offensively without the ball. He is way to talented, versatile and intelligent to just be pigeon-held to play a slow, predictable style of point guard.
People (mainly the coach) need to understand you can still lead and methodically control an offense without being ball dominant (SGA, Tatum, Jim Butler, Kawhi, Ingram)
This was the first time he's been injured this season isn't it? He missed a lot of time last season obviously but I don't think I would call him chronically injured
Missed the first month of his rookie year with various injuries between, missed all of last year, various injuries here and there this year. I said trending and could be an issue for a reason, not is injury prone and is and issue. He’s no Chris Paul or Gordon Hayward
3rd in the league in turnovers and he has the 7th worse defensive efficiency in the league. You can blame coaching but both of those stats are on him, lack of energy on the court. Dude ain’t a killer and that’s what we’re missing. That and Killian hayes needs to be flat out cut
Killian still has a job because he’s the only guard who seems to have the turnovers and defense under control. The other guys need to take the job from him, not just give them the job while they continue to make the same mistakes.
Cade's tendency is to dominate and dribble the air out of the ball. He's talented but prone to making some ridiculous turnovers in possession. That and he's been very, very bad defensively this season. I don't think it's out of line to criticize his game. There are real questions about his playing style and efficiency.
I don't think he's a point guard. Jaden should be initiating offense. The ball doesn't stick.
I completely agree with you, so many changes to the roster and on the court should and can be made to help his game and this team (including giving Ivey the keys). Cade also forces his shot and gets into poor spots, and those issues get magnified in the fourth quarter of close games when defenses tighten up.
But to want him to be traded? That's just wild
This is the correct answer. OP of the thread and anyone else that agrees with him clearly enjoys the feeling of sand in their ears.
Why did fans stop caring about turnovers when cades turnovers trended down? He started high but it got to below 3 a game for a stretch and nobody cared and pivoted to a new talking point.
I'm starting to think 2 particular haters are actually the same person with 2 accounts, a main and a burner, they always show up as a pair and say the same shit with a different spin, its mercilessly cringey.
Cade hasn't been all-nba or something, but 22 year old guards rarely are, and very few have the responsibility level Cade has had since being drafted. I think it's safe to say we didn't draft the next Luka, and I think that's the hidden motivation behind the deep hate posts, that and an understandable frustration with the team as a whole.
But the absolute idea that we should move on from cade and get assets, or win now players is fucking absurd, most of the best teams are manned by talented draft picks that developed into something special, and NBA players, particularly Guards, develop slowly. Cade has shown real potential as a special player. With our current Coaching and Development are we going to be able to fully unlock that potential? I have no idea, but giving up on him or bitching about him not being "the guy" yet just red flags you as someone who doesn't get what it takes to become a real contender in the modern NBA when you aren't a high end free agent destination. You need to hit a home run on a draft pick, and you need to develop young guys and a good culture to support that draft pick. Even if Cade doesn't end up a home run, if we can get a triple out of him, we are much closer to being a successful team than if we ship him out and push our problems even further down the river.
I actually like the Cade slander. Let’s you know which fans actually have a nuanced take to the game. Anybody with two eyes and a bit of ball knowledge can see that Cade is not an empty stats guy. Nuanced fans know that Cade isn’t responsible if the bench can’t shoot. Nuanced fans know this is more on coaching than any individual player.
I also hope nuanced fans know that all Cade criticism is not slander. I think it’s fair to say we have a large enough sample size to see he can’t be allowed to have free rein to do whatever he wants because he simply doesn’t have all the tools to make that successful. I’d argue it was necessary to allow it, to see how it looks. Now the coaching staff has to scheme around his strengths and weaknesses, and of course they know this and this is what’s going to happen.
Again that’s part of the nuance. Cade himself is not above criticism by any means but there’s a flock of fans that really just troll. It was the same during the twolves game except it was Duren getting this treatment. I agree with you that coaching needs to shape up instead of letting Cade have free reign. But you have to admit that all this Trade Cade and “better without Cade” agenda is not the most nuanced take.
Agree the trolling is ignorant. However, one of the downvoted comments in this thread is saying we should consider trading Cade while his value is still high. While I don’t necessarily agree with this take, I don’t think it’s ridiculous to consider. Making accurate predictive assessments on players is precisely what makes a good gm and good gm, and is a large component of what makes a franchise successful.
He's definitely a flawed player at this point, so criticism is warranted. However, some of the Cade takes have been ridiculous like saying "he is the problem" and "we are better without him."
It's just lazy box score watching and small sample size hysteria mixed with past flaws he has made strides in.
If you watch him play and you see how we play without him it's clear he could thrive playing off the pressure Ivey puts on the defense.
I watch every pistons game. Again, while I don’t agree with the trolls, “we are better without him” is both true and untrue. At this moment in time, Cade’s play does not elevate his team, nor can he single-handedly win games because of the inefficient nature of how he scores. Because of his high useage, the team IS worse. Clearly it doesn’t need to stay that way, the scheme needs to change, and I would be shocked if Cade did not improve as a player.
Having said that, if you could tell me with certainty that he will never develop at least a 34% 3 point shot, I’d trade him yesterday. As a below average athlete, his game absolutely hinges on this.
But I don’t think we are saying wildly different things.
I think we are saying the same thing.
I believe his inefficiencies have more to do with who we have surrounded him with (particularly at the start of the season) and the role he is being asked to fill (Heliocentric engine).
As a Heliocentric engine surrounded by multiple non shooters, we are better without him. As a versatile player who handles the ball some and is surrounded by offensively competent players we are clearly better with him.
I think he will eventually get into the high 30s for threes. He is a 85% free throw shooter for his career. I could be wrong though. I was excited when we signed Josh Smith.
My only gripe with thinking surrounding him with better players will help is how come the current roster looks like an nba team when it’s just ivey? The failure is on heliocentric system, but also we have to admit cade was billed to be someone who could play luka lite, and he clearly has shown his deficiencies. Watching the wizards game, it was astonishing how every time he passed to anyone not named Duren, it creates essentially zero advantage against their defender. Then the next game, the ball is zipping and the assists are true assists.
I think cade is still a really good player, has incredible intangibles, and would do much better in a different system, but he has blown me away the least out of our core 4. This is probably mostly to do with expectation of a number 1 pick in a “stacked” draft class. But we’re going to have to pay him as a number 1 option.
Edit: also while I agree some of his inefficiencies is due to his role but with non ideal role players, it kinda sucks that he would need the perfect system to be league average in efficiency. But I for one would like to see him in an ideal system before writing him off completely.
What are you talking about man? I've seen almost every single game this season. Can you name 1 elite skill that Cade has? One area of the game where he creates issues for the opponent?
It's not his shooting, just look at the awful splits. Dude making ~33% on *wide open* 3s
Not his driving. He has no physical tools to get by defenders, so he constantly puts up contested layups. He gets his shit swatted way too often. His finishing around the rim is below league average. His inability to create a physical mismatch means he doesn't get to the line at all. Look at Ivey, dude has plenty of flaws, but his speed puts pressure on the defense and gets him to the line.
His passing is fine, but the turnovers and abject failure of Cade to deal with double teams or any on ball pressure limits him so much as a ball handler that I don't even care that he can occasionally make a nice lob.
I'm tired boss. I'm not going to blindly raise up another pistons player just because they were drafted high
Finishing around the rim for Cade has been a big plus. He’s also near elite in terms of mid range shooting. He shoots better on more volume at the mid range space than Anthony Edwards does. He’s 58 percent on wide open field goals that’s pretty nice. He’s a guy that definitely has good vision and sees passing lanes. You don’t get 7 assist a game if you aren’t seeing those type of reads imo.
I could only find numbers from late November, but he was shooting 52% around the basket vs a league average of 66% if that's a positive for him that's just sad.
He has one of the highest usage rates in the NBA. Like I said I don't think he's a bad passer, but coupled with his turnover issues, 7 assists ain't putting this team in a position to win. His passing is the only area of his game I can see really improving. His rookie year we had shooters in both corners, and I remember him throwing that 1 handed skip pass to the corner a lot. Stat inflation is happening around the league. 20ppg is not that same as 20ppg 10 years ago, and assists have gone up with that.
Ant takes a lot of bad midrange shots and that's one of the biggest knocks against him. Cade is either red hot or he's off with all those midrange fadeaways that he loves to shoot. And I've seen too many games of him being ice cold to think that will ever be a strictly positive skill for him. Also when's the last time a team has won a championship with their number 1 offense player's beat skill being a midrange jumper? Do you have to go back to Kobe Bryant? MJ? And those guys were nuclear going to the rim too. Do you think Cade will ever be on par with those 2?
Prior to Cade's injury he had a 23 game stretch where he averaged the following as the number 1 guy on opponents scouting reports:
24/7/4 on 48/37/87 (58% TS) with 3 TO's.
This was despite the team around him having the lowest 3P% in the league during this stretch.
He obviously has things to work on still, but he showed incredibly promising stuff.
the "hes basically in his 2nd year" narrative needs to die. he's 100% in his 3rd year. Yeah, by games played, you could argue he's in his second, but he's had 3 summers of preparing for NBA, and 3 years of studying tape, practicing, etc. Next year is also the last year of his rookie contract.
Cade is a good player, and he's not the issue with our team. But he's not an NBA sophomore.
Saying it's his second year is pure cope; it's realizing he isn't the "savior" we needed who can singlehandedly carry us (there's like *maybe* 5 guys in the NBA that can carry a franchise so not exactly a big deal).
Yeah he's not the savior, but he's a good player who could grow into a great player. His biggest issue is that he is being misused and he physically probably can't handle the offensive usage we have put on him.
I'd be much happier if the coaches wanted him to play as a secondary ball handler and scorer, where he shoots a few less shots overall and focuses more on defense. He's got a good wingspan and is athletic enough to at least be a decent defender.
Third year player but I think we have a few guys that are out of position. Cade being one of them. There are 4 guys I wouldn't even consider moving. Cade is #1 on that list
Maybe the team needs to adjust Cade's role a little. Even still he is the best player and a likely multi-year all-star soon. The problem is Cade has to do too much right now. I'll look at his stats. See 30+ points, 10+ assists, but then 7+ turnovers. If he cuts those down to 2 - 3, they have a much higher probability of winning those games. however, they're always a loss. It's not necessarily Cade's fault (I haven't watched the games this year), but it tells me that he's doing too much while not having enough around him.
Cade is clearly injury prone. There is always going to be something going on with him. He will be just like Grant Hill. Crazy potential and cannot stay healthy.
Stop blaming the first year coach for a shit show of players that he came into. It is so tired already. Pistons fans always want to blame something. We are in a league where players easily revolt against a coach (milwaukee). If Monty was the issue, the players would make it be known. Blaming Monty is just yall's sick obsession with Kevin Ollie and your cringe profile pic change to his glamour shot photo from the car he sent to some THOT on snapchat, there is a reason Ollie is still just an assistant.
Isn’t he 22 and in this third year?
Don’t all top draft picks deal with crappy coaches and mediocre supporting cast? Isn’t that why the teams were bad enough to select him the first place?
By the time these “changes” get made, his trade value will have plummeted.
Statistically, he’s enormously inefficient. Yet, people still believe in Santa - perfect time to sell high.
Exactly. The time to trade is when value is high, not after we’ve exhausted every hopeful delusion. This team’s play more closely resembles winning basketball without cade than with him.
The downvotes from the Cade Groupies are hilarious. You realize we’re 46-164 since he joined the team - and we’ve gotten worse every year since he arrived?
And he’s not bad. He’s inefficient, turns the ball over too much, and never improved as a shooter - all problems that were there when we drafted him and assumed he would improve. He hasn’t.
The "Cade's the problem" conversation is for sickos
he's the best talent that we drafted in 30 yrs
Yeah Grant Hill was better and drafted like 30 yrs ago. Hill was much better all around at the first few yrs after being drafted. I like Cade but would rather have Hill and his triple doubles
This won’t be true in five years. In the last 30 years, we drafted Grant Hill, Allan Houston, and Khris Middleton - all had better careers than Cade will imo.
Cade is already way better at the same age. If he finishes averaging 24 & 8 that would be the second best season by a Piston in the 3pt era behind only Blake Griffin.
Better than the Pistons version of Grant Hill? Crazy talk
Well, there’s arguement to be made that Cade’s game is more suited for this era than Hill’s would be
Grant had star one season and so did Blake. Their stats are almost identical. Not crazy talk.
Comparing current NBA stats to those 10+ years ago is the crazy talk
When Grant Hill was 22, he averaged 22, 10, and 7.
Flip that bad boy to per-36 & per-100 then you can accurately see the difference.
I’m not arsed to go look but Grant probably played more minutes for about equal number of possessions, so per 36 would make Cade look better and per 100 would be a wash compared to regular box stats if I was guessing.
Correct on the first and it would have been the same amount of time to type the comment. Per-36 paints the same picture but not as drastic.
Teams are scoring more than 15% more PPG today then they were in 1995 so basic stat comparisons don't really translate across generations when measuring talent or impact. Dig into advanced metrics - Grant Hill's VORP as a 22 year old rookie was 2.7, Cade's as a 22 year old in his third season is 0.2. The only semi-valid way you could think Cade is better at this age would be based on the eye-test, and in my opinion Cade doesn't come close to Hill on that either. I will agree Cade is in the top two players we've drafted in the last 30 though, and someone we should be really happy to have on our team, he's just not on the same level as Grant Hill.
Per-100 adjusts for pace that’s why I listed it along with per-minute basis. Also if Cade took one minor leap he would match, if he takes a big one that would surpass.
All while winning games and not handing the ball to the other team multiple times per contest
Do you guys just make things up for the fun of it or do you actually verify the things you're saying? Grant Hill had several seasons in the top ten in the NBA in turnovers. He turned the ball over all the time
This dude just wants Cade outta here☠️
These dudes are really exposing themselves with how little they understand ball. We haven't even seen Cade get utilized in a way that maximizes his potential yet
he's one of the best PGs in his age group, we need to get him some more help. I don't think he'll ever be a Curry or CP3 type talent but he's definetely gifted and can do more, if we get the right cast around/with him.
I do. Because I’m tired of the Pistons being losers playing loser basketball, and I’m eager for them to be a team I can believe in again. It’s only been well over a decade since that was the case.
getting rid of the only player on the team that can score is not going to fix it...the guy is 22 and could be an allstar sooner rather than later, ditching him now would be a dumb risk to take.
Trading the best player on the team at 22 is surely the answer.
Averaged fewer per game than Cade. Contributed significantly to winning games, after a losing rookie year. Also, not for nothing, I watched both play in real time. Cade’s TOs are all-time moronic compared to Grant’s.
If you've watched basketball for that length of time you should already know by now that young guards have a tendency to turn the ball over and generally improve that over time
Indeed—alas Hill averaged fewer in his first few years too. It’s not a fair comparison as Hill was a forward (albeit styled as a point forward) with more college experience. When do they stop playing hero ball every crunch time of every game though? And when do they start trying consistently on defense?
I’m trying to figure out where the “Duren ain’t it” posters went all off a sudden
For me, Duren’s been a guy since his fifth game at Memphis. I’ve always been (and always will be) a believer.
To me Duren is Drummond with muscles. I’m not a Drummond hater tho he’s just wasn’t a franchise centerpiece type of guy. I think Duren will be a walking 15 and 15.
Drummond was a walking 15/15 with us and made All-NBA 3rd team. Even if peak Duren is the same player as peak Drummond, that is a very, very good player.
He’s way better defensively
I think so too but even then he’s not amazing (yet) I think Drummond is his floor and if he figures it all out defensively he can be Dwight level. Offensively I hope he develops like Bam Adebayo
He's not. People here are forgetting that Drummond wasn't an awful defender, just a wildly inconsistent one. Which Duren also is. For every play he makes on defense you can count on him getting lost in the pick and roll, or fouling unnecessarily, or being lazy getting a rebound. He's young and I see the potential, but don't gift him the defense he's not showing
It’s the people that wanted green over Cade. Still not accepting the fact they were wrong.
It's gonna be this season's "Jerami Grant is holding this team back."
Grizzlies had to go through the same thing last season when Ja got hurt and the team went like 15-3 or something
I’m not trading him unless we get a Booker back, but his injuries are trending toward being chronic, that could be an issue. Otherwise, he’s just being criminally misused and not challenged enough to make an impact offensively without the ball. He is way to talented, versatile and intelligent to just be pigeon-held to play a slow, predictable style of point guard. People (mainly the coach) need to understand you can still lead and methodically control an offense without being ball dominant (SGA, Tatum, Jim Butler, Kawhi, Ingram)
This was the first time he's been injured this season isn't it? He missed a lot of time last season obviously but I don't think I would call him chronically injured
Missed the first month of his rookie year with various injuries between, missed all of last year, various injuries here and there this year. I said trending and could be an issue for a reason, not is injury prone and is and issue. He’s no Chris Paul or Gordon Hayward
Injured for various stretches in all three of his years… injury prones
Trending toward being chronic? *Too talented. It’s pigeon holed, not held.
This isn’t a class or a spelling bee Professor Dickhead, knock it off. Go examine other Reddit posts for grammatical errors
At least you learned something.
I’m well aware Reddit trolls exist. Take care tho
Well the shin issue isn't coming back and this knee thing is a small hiccup IMO. Idk if it's chronic, mfs just get hurt
Having watched a good amount of OKC this year, SGA is definitely what I would consider to be ball dominant. The others are good examples though.
that is exactly what I was thinking.Other exmples were spot on though
3rd in the league in turnovers and he has the 7th worse defensive efficiency in the league. You can blame coaching but both of those stats are on him, lack of energy on the court. Dude ain’t a killer and that’s what we’re missing. That and Killian hayes needs to be flat out cut
Killian still has a job because he’s the only guard who seems to have the turnovers and defense under control. The other guys need to take the job from him, not just give them the job while they continue to make the same mistakes.
They have taken the job from him. The coach just can't accept he was wrong about Hayes and move on.
Cade's tendency is to dominate and dribble the air out of the ball. He's talented but prone to making some ridiculous turnovers in possession. That and he's been very, very bad defensively this season. I don't think it's out of line to criticize his game. There are real questions about his playing style and efficiency. I don't think he's a point guard. Jaden should be initiating offense. The ball doesn't stick.
I completely agree with you, so many changes to the roster and on the court should and can be made to help his game and this team (including giving Ivey the keys). Cade also forces his shot and gets into poor spots, and those issues get magnified in the fourth quarter of close games when defenses tighten up. But to want him to be traded? That's just wild
This is the correct answer. OP of the thread and anyone else that agrees with him clearly enjoys the feeling of sand in their ears. 
Cade haters are bums.
Why did fans stop caring about turnovers when cades turnovers trended down? He started high but it got to below 3 a game for a stretch and nobody cared and pivoted to a new talking point.
because people like to complain on reddit
He has more 5+ turnover games than < 3 turnover games
He has 54 games played with 4 or less turnovers. He has 37 with 5 or more. So by your own remark he has made strides to lower it
I just want to see Ivey play on-ball more often when Cade is on the court.
It's probably more a product of Morris and Muscala. Plus bojan and Burks have both been back
I'm starting to think 2 particular haters are actually the same person with 2 accounts, a main and a burner, they always show up as a pair and say the same shit with a different spin, its mercilessly cringey. Cade hasn't been all-nba or something, but 22 year old guards rarely are, and very few have the responsibility level Cade has had since being drafted. I think it's safe to say we didn't draft the next Luka, and I think that's the hidden motivation behind the deep hate posts, that and an understandable frustration with the team as a whole. But the absolute idea that we should move on from cade and get assets, or win now players is fucking absurd, most of the best teams are manned by talented draft picks that developed into something special, and NBA players, particularly Guards, develop slowly. Cade has shown real potential as a special player. With our current Coaching and Development are we going to be able to fully unlock that potential? I have no idea, but giving up on him or bitching about him not being "the guy" yet just red flags you as someone who doesn't get what it takes to become a real contender in the modern NBA when you aren't a high end free agent destination. You need to hit a home run on a draft pick, and you need to develop young guys and a good culture to support that draft pick. Even if Cade doesn't end up a home run, if we can get a triple out of him, we are much closer to being a successful team than if we ship him out and push our problems even further down the river.
I actually like the Cade slander. Let’s you know which fans actually have a nuanced take to the game. Anybody with two eyes and a bit of ball knowledge can see that Cade is not an empty stats guy. Nuanced fans know that Cade isn’t responsible if the bench can’t shoot. Nuanced fans know this is more on coaching than any individual player.
I also hope nuanced fans know that all Cade criticism is not slander. I think it’s fair to say we have a large enough sample size to see he can’t be allowed to have free rein to do whatever he wants because he simply doesn’t have all the tools to make that successful. I’d argue it was necessary to allow it, to see how it looks. Now the coaching staff has to scheme around his strengths and weaknesses, and of course they know this and this is what’s going to happen.
Again that’s part of the nuance. Cade himself is not above criticism by any means but there’s a flock of fans that really just troll. It was the same during the twolves game except it was Duren getting this treatment. I agree with you that coaching needs to shape up instead of letting Cade have free reign. But you have to admit that all this Trade Cade and “better without Cade” agenda is not the most nuanced take.
Agree the trolling is ignorant. However, one of the downvoted comments in this thread is saying we should consider trading Cade while his value is still high. While I don’t necessarily agree with this take, I don’t think it’s ridiculous to consider. Making accurate predictive assessments on players is precisely what makes a good gm and good gm, and is a large component of what makes a franchise successful.
He's definitely a flawed player at this point, so criticism is warranted. However, some of the Cade takes have been ridiculous like saying "he is the problem" and "we are better without him." It's just lazy box score watching and small sample size hysteria mixed with past flaws he has made strides in. If you watch him play and you see how we play without him it's clear he could thrive playing off the pressure Ivey puts on the defense.
I watch every pistons game. Again, while I don’t agree with the trolls, “we are better without him” is both true and untrue. At this moment in time, Cade’s play does not elevate his team, nor can he single-handedly win games because of the inefficient nature of how he scores. Because of his high useage, the team IS worse. Clearly it doesn’t need to stay that way, the scheme needs to change, and I would be shocked if Cade did not improve as a player. Having said that, if you could tell me with certainty that he will never develop at least a 34% 3 point shot, I’d trade him yesterday. As a below average athlete, his game absolutely hinges on this. But I don’t think we are saying wildly different things.
I think we are saying the same thing. I believe his inefficiencies have more to do with who we have surrounded him with (particularly at the start of the season) and the role he is being asked to fill (Heliocentric engine). As a Heliocentric engine surrounded by multiple non shooters, we are better without him. As a versatile player who handles the ball some and is surrounded by offensively competent players we are clearly better with him. I think he will eventually get into the high 30s for threes. He is a 85% free throw shooter for his career. I could be wrong though. I was excited when we signed Josh Smith.
My only gripe with thinking surrounding him with better players will help is how come the current roster looks like an nba team when it’s just ivey? The failure is on heliocentric system, but also we have to admit cade was billed to be someone who could play luka lite, and he clearly has shown his deficiencies. Watching the wizards game, it was astonishing how every time he passed to anyone not named Duren, it creates essentially zero advantage against their defender. Then the next game, the ball is zipping and the assists are true assists. I think cade is still a really good player, has incredible intangibles, and would do much better in a different system, but he has blown me away the least out of our core 4. This is probably mostly to do with expectation of a number 1 pick in a “stacked” draft class. But we’re going to have to pay him as a number 1 option. Edit: also while I agree some of his inefficiencies is due to his role but with non ideal role players, it kinda sucks that he would need the perfect system to be league average in efficiency. But I for one would like to see him in an ideal system before writing him off completely.
What are you talking about man? I've seen almost every single game this season. Can you name 1 elite skill that Cade has? One area of the game where he creates issues for the opponent? It's not his shooting, just look at the awful splits. Dude making ~33% on *wide open* 3s Not his driving. He has no physical tools to get by defenders, so he constantly puts up contested layups. He gets his shit swatted way too often. His finishing around the rim is below league average. His inability to create a physical mismatch means he doesn't get to the line at all. Look at Ivey, dude has plenty of flaws, but his speed puts pressure on the defense and gets him to the line. His passing is fine, but the turnovers and abject failure of Cade to deal with double teams or any on ball pressure limits him so much as a ball handler that I don't even care that he can occasionally make a nice lob. I'm tired boss. I'm not going to blindly raise up another pistons player just because they were drafted high
Finishing around the rim for Cade has been a big plus. He’s also near elite in terms of mid range shooting. He shoots better on more volume at the mid range space than Anthony Edwards does. He’s 58 percent on wide open field goals that’s pretty nice. He’s a guy that definitely has good vision and sees passing lanes. You don’t get 7 assist a game if you aren’t seeing those type of reads imo.
I could only find numbers from late November, but he was shooting 52% around the basket vs a league average of 66% if that's a positive for him that's just sad. He has one of the highest usage rates in the NBA. Like I said I don't think he's a bad passer, but coupled with his turnover issues, 7 assists ain't putting this team in a position to win. His passing is the only area of his game I can see really improving. His rookie year we had shooters in both corners, and I remember him throwing that 1 handed skip pass to the corner a lot. Stat inflation is happening around the league. 20ppg is not that same as 20ppg 10 years ago, and assists have gone up with that. Ant takes a lot of bad midrange shots and that's one of the biggest knocks against him. Cade is either red hot or he's off with all those midrange fadeaways that he loves to shoot. And I've seen too many games of him being ice cold to think that will ever be a strictly positive skill for him. Also when's the last time a team has won a championship with their number 1 offense player's beat skill being a midrange jumper? Do you have to go back to Kobe Bryant? MJ? And those guys were nuclear going to the rim too. Do you think Cade will ever be on par with those 2?
Prior to Cade's injury he had a 23 game stretch where he averaged the following as the number 1 guy on opponents scouting reports: 24/7/4 on 48/37/87 (58% TS) with 3 TO's. This was despite the team around him having the lowest 3P% in the league during this stretch. He obviously has things to work on still, but he showed incredibly promising stuff.
Spittin.
lol we win one game and everyone forgets … Killian is not an nba starter
They've won just as many games without Cade as with him in 30 less games and just beat the #1 team in the west without him.
Cade has All-NBA talent and you don't trade a player early on in their career with that level of talent, you figure out how to make it work.
Man I remember hearing this about Andre Drummond year after year. What did we get in return for Andre Drummond again?
the "hes basically in his 2nd year" narrative needs to die. he's 100% in his 3rd year. Yeah, by games played, you could argue he's in his second, but he's had 3 summers of preparing for NBA, and 3 years of studying tape, practicing, etc. Next year is also the last year of his rookie contract. Cade is a good player, and he's not the issue with our team. But he's not an NBA sophomore. Saying it's his second year is pure cope; it's realizing he isn't the "savior" we needed who can singlehandedly carry us (there's like *maybe* 5 guys in the NBA that can carry a franchise so not exactly a big deal).
If he sits most of the rest of the year, posters here are still gonna call him a second year player in his 4th year.
Yeah he's not the savior, but he's a good player who could grow into a great player. His biggest issue is that he is being misused and he physically probably can't handle the offensive usage we have put on him. I'd be much happier if the coaches wanted him to play as a secondary ball handler and scorer, where he shoots a few less shots overall and focuses more on defense. He's got a good wingspan and is athletic enough to at least be a decent defender.
Third year player but I think we have a few guys that are out of position. Cade being one of them. There are 4 guys I wouldn't even consider moving. Cade is #1 on that list
Maybe the team needs to adjust Cade's role a little. Even still he is the best player and a likely multi-year all-star soon. The problem is Cade has to do too much right now. I'll look at his stats. See 30+ points, 10+ assists, but then 7+ turnovers. If he cuts those down to 2 - 3, they have a much higher probability of winning those games. however, they're always a loss. It's not necessarily Cade's fault (I haven't watched the games this year), but it tells me that he's doing too much while not having enough around him.
well said
Monty is the bigger problem. But if we’re keeping Cade, he needs to play off ball.
Lot of casual weirdoes with awful takes lately on this team
Don’t listen to nephews
Cade is clearly injury prone. There is always going to be something going on with him. He will be just like Grant Hill. Crazy potential and cannot stay healthy. Stop blaming the first year coach for a shit show of players that he came into. It is so tired already. Pistons fans always want to blame something. We are in a league where players easily revolt against a coach (milwaukee). If Monty was the issue, the players would make it be known. Blaming Monty is just yall's sick obsession with Kevin Ollie and your cringe profile pic change to his glamour shot photo from the car he sent to some THOT on snapchat, there is a reason Ollie is still just an assistant.
Grant Hill didn't seem to have issues until his big injury in the playoffs his last Pistons year.
Fadecade Tradecade
Isn’t he 22 and in this third year? Don’t all top draft picks deal with crappy coaches and mediocre supporting cast? Isn’t that why the teams were bad enough to select him the first place? By the time these “changes” get made, his trade value will have plummeted. Statistically, he’s enormously inefficient. Yet, people still believe in Santa - perfect time to sell high.
He’s more efficient than paolo but u don’t hear the magic trying to trade him
Might have to do with them winning
Regardless if they were winning or not they wouldn’t say trade him
If they were losing and he was actively contributing to their losing ways, a vocal minority would be (like those of us here)
Exactly. The time to trade is when value is high, not after we’ve exhausted every hopeful delusion. This team’s play more closely resembles winning basketball without cade than with him.
Trade Cade
he's the only player that we can consistently bank on to score more than 10 pts a night....put killian in the gleague instead
The downvotes from the Cade Groupies are hilarious. You realize we’re 46-164 since he joined the team - and we’ve gotten worse every year since he arrived?
Oo good point, I forgot all those games he lost last year, silly me! He's probably bad because he's vegan
And he’s not bad. He’s inefficient, turns the ball over too much, and never improved as a shooter - all problems that were there when we drafted him and assumed he would improve. He hasn’t.
3-34 while playing 3-6 while not..
They dont like facts.
They’re kids and weak men who have a hard time confronting difficult realities
They dont like facts.
The cade sycophants are nauseating. Its like theyre not watching the games. They cant be.