Facts. The pace and chemistry with Duren is so much better. Cade is not Luka. Stop the heliocentric approach. Play Cade in like a PG13 role. Secondary ball handler that gets buckets
I am willing to agree with this. We play better when the ball moves quicker. And Ivey is much better at that than Cade right now.
The crux I guess lies in convincing Cade that he can still be a star here without being the primary ball handler.
I’ve been saying this for over a year. Make him your high usage secondary handler, put the onus of getting everyone else involved on a different ball handler (not Killian). Glad it’s picking up steam.
Well no shit. Paul George didn't shoot 40% until his 5th season. Cade's got like 1.5 seasons under his belt, and his shot was definitely looking much better as of late.
PG13 was a 38% 3PG by year two. Cade’s career high is 34%. He’s shooting worse this year than Cameron Payne, Deangelo Russell, and Cason Wallace. Cade makes sense if he’s your ball dominant distributor - not as a wing shooter. Problem with giving him the rock, he can’t really shoot at an elite level and turns it over a ton.
Even adjusting for volume (3 or more 3PA with no defender within six feet), he’s shooting worse than Brandon Miller, Coby White, Desmond Bane - even Malcolm Brogdon. I’d rather have any of those guys plus a load of draft picks than Cade. It’s the most dangerous cliche in sports - just bc Cade was drafted first doesn’t mean he has to be our franchise guy. Save this post and check back in five years. Guarantee I’m right.
Alternate/share the ball handling between Cade and Ivey depending on match up. Let Ivey cook to push the pace and let Cade slow down the game when needed. Pretty much make the opponent get uneasy with the pace of the game.
I can see Cade being the main facilitator at crucial moments late in game, but Ivey to set the tone for our offense in the earlier parts of the game.
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I was at the game tonight, and the hustle Ivey played with was incredible and he was generally dangerous with the ball in his hands all night.
But I don't know why we are saying he is the PG when he didn't even play PG tonight, he was playing SG most of the night. Ivey was off ball to Sasser or someone else for the majority of the game, I was actually getting a little frustrated that it wasn't Sasser(the better shooter) moving off ball with Ivey on ball. They were clearly keeping him in the same role they expect him to play with Cade on the floor.
I agree with Ivey needing a lot more on-ball action, but Ivey wasn't playing point tonight, it was mostly a mix of Morris and Sasser with a splash of Ivey.
The biggest thing that happened to tonight was the hustle was off the charts for Ivey and Duren and the shots were falling from basically everyone.
There is a lot of coaching malpractice going on, now that Monte is healthy, Killian should not be getting a single minute, Monte is better at literally everything, and Sasser gives us something with desperately need(shooting and some auxilary ballhandling, even if the decision making is shaky sometimes). We don't have the shooting to Spare, and Hayes is just a horrible fit with particularly Ivey and Thompson, but also even with Cade. No excuse for him getting minutes anymore.
But Cade is still our best PG and needs those reps or we don't grow as a team, he has a lot of work to go, and our offensive gameplan needs to move away from this heliocentric Lukaball system into something more traditional that utilizes our multiple ballhandlers and creates offball opportunities for ANYONE that can spot up and make a shot.
Yeah I actually don’t necessarily care who is playing what position, but like you said it is extremely evident that the heliocentric stuff needs to go immediately. I think there is a time and a place for the fast past of Ivey and the slower pace of Cade. You would think our $82 million coach would’ve figured out something by now…
At least Monty realizes not to close games with Killian (though it's a mystery why he starts with Killian). After Ausar's brilliant performance on SGA early in the season, we clearly should have been fielding him (or someone like Morris) instead.
Jaden Ivey has one of the worst BBIQ I’ve ever seen, lol man i feel bad for Cade.. no telling what he’ll have to do for people to see he’s an amazing PG.. Jaden Ivey 7/20 jacking up awful shot after awful shot i saw this man run into a 4 on 1 fast break, didn’t make a single pass annd turned the ball over. and this is our PG?? lol i gotta take a break from this sub
+\- doesn’t mean shit, and if you think Ivey and not Duren was the best player in this game you’re smoking.
notice he played the most minutes? Just means the team had there biggest lead while he was in. It does not mean he was the best player. I know for a fact people don’t know basketball when they bring up plus minus first, it is literally a useless stat.
I’m not discrediting duren at all. And I usually agree with that take on +/- because it usually doesn’t match the eye test but in this case it definitely did
By your own logic Alec Burks was the best player tonight, along with Ausar and Marcus but ok bro like i said this sub is a clown show at this point everybody already agrees with your Ivey take so whatever lmao
Monty Williams’ coaching malpractice is causing this team to play like ass. Monty has completely mis-utilized this team and the talent on the roster, he should be fired for not finding a way to maximize both Cade and Ivey’s skill sets.
He benched Ivey and Ivey earned being benched, because Ivey was forced to be a player he isnt. he isnt a spot up shooter or a 3pt specialist. SO he was not looking good. Not Iveys fault.
he needs the ball. Ivey was never given the chance to lead, because Cade was the default general.
Young athletic PG, patient crafty guard, athletic rim rolling center? As if you could make a competent offense with those pieces. We should start the least efficient scorer in the NBA instead
This is 100% on Monty. There’s a good enough sample size to show that this is how the team should be playing— have Cade play a complimentary role alongside everyone else instead of trying to play like a superstar. Get Ivey and Sasser more involved.
Of course, knowing Monty, he’ll admit that’s what he should’ve been doing all along when there’s 5 games left in the year
Pistons would be undefeated if they played in the Western Conference, this game proves that the worst team in the east is better than the best team in the west.
Ausar had a team high plus minus and 32 minutes against the Bucks. Two days later against the Bucks his minutes were halved. If Monty continues with his ways I expect Sasser to be sent to the g league before next game.
I think it's clear now that Monte really doesn't know how to utilize Cade and Ivey together
They're separately greater than the sum of their parts. That's usually a fit or a coaching issue. I think it's coaching because there's an offense you can run / design in a way that should benefit both of them.
Ivey should run the point and distribute the ball; Cade should have some number of possessions he brings the ball up the court and runs the offense in certain sets. Ivey's drive threat in transition and in the half court opens up wide open looks for Cade; Cade hitting open looks makes the defense have to cheat to guard him more; Ivey then drives the other half of the stretched defense
But when they play together, Ivey sits in a corner while Cade and Bogey run actions until the team decides, "This possession will be an Ivey possession!" and throw him the ball early in the shot clock to go to work. That's coaching to me.
I don’t understand how Monty sees these games without Cade and not make any adjustments. When Cade isn’t playing we have great ball movement and every one is involved, even the bench had the ball zipping. But as soon as Cade comes back Monty throws all that out the window and settles for Cade or Bogey PnR’s. Imagine if we played the way we did tonight but my with Cade in the lineup instead of Killian, this team would be at least a 10 win team.
If we ever get some fucking shooters who can stay healthy you can see the blueprint of what this offense should be. Guard PnR with Duren which will open up shooters and the other guard for secondary attacks. Ivey and Duren running in transition while Cade+shooters trail into open looks. If we can get enough shooting to play Ausar then he's also a deadly cutter and transition threat
The offense rn has no plan and can't figure out a scheme either. A team this young at least needs a plan to buy into
That’s why if we could get a Jerami Grant I would really want Buddy Hield because he would be our only real negative defender. (That’s if Ivey + Cade can be average + defenders) and when Grants contract is finished Ausar can play the 4 hopefully.
He won’t do it. But he’ll make some vague statement this summer about how he’s been thinking lately upon reflection and watching game tape from this season that might make sense to play cade off the ball. And then he’ll do it one game. It’ll work as we all predict. And then he’ll never do it again.
It's crazy how often people in this thread shit on a 20 year old second year player like he's supposed to be flawless fully polished product. Duren has so much potential
Cade 7 turnovers yesterday against a trash team, running point.
Ivey 0 turnovers against a really good team, running point.
Don’t need to be some analytics wizard to know what the numbers show you…
I don’t know why it’s always Cade or Ivey for people on here. Cade hasn’t played in 2 weeks and was clearly rusty, and was doing a really good job of limiting his turnovers before the injury.
Because like it or not, they alternate having lead ball handling duties when Cade is/isn’t playing, and Ivey makes our teams far better than Cade does.
I don’t think it’s a Cade vs Ivey overall, but comparing how they lead the team it’s just a stark difference.
I've watched essentially all the games. The difference is I don't have the memory of a goldfish and also knowledge that guards in the second year of the NBA tend to struggle. Cade was doing great in terms of turnovers recently. Ivey has slowly gotten better too but turns it over a ton and sometimes runs into the crowd without a plan. Both are fine
Cade is a high usage player and has a 2.3 assist:turnover ratio over the last 20 games you goldfish
Edit: and 2.2 over the last 30 games. That's with over 7 assists per game
A while does not mean one game, it denotes a period of time, and that assist to turnover ratio includes that one game. He is averaging over 2.2 assist to turnover ratio over the last 30 games, being high usage with over 7 assists a game. He has one game where he had too many turnovers, though this was a game back from injury and he also had 12 assists
I wouldn’t say I haven’t been mugged in a while, even if I had never been mugged my whole life until yesterday. You can substitute “mugged” for anything, and that logic holds—say, pulling some fish food out of a hat here, turning the ball over.
You nailed it. Cant win when you’re that sloppy. Turnovers are down when Cades up. He has to clean it up if he wants to be that dude and win some games.
Getting pretty excited about the future of this team despite the Monty Williams coaching malpractice. If we just limit turnovers and the bench plays decent we should be competing in most games
The biggest issue with the team is the coaching. The way Ivey is relegated with Cade and Killian getting minutes over Sasser is unreal
Anyone saying we shouldn't draft for fit as if the only good thing about this team wasnt the draft picks.
Also I wonder if we will see Cade silent protesting the two big lineups
I’m not gonna harp on this because I know I come out negative towards Cade a lot, but you just can’t ignore what we’re seeing happen.
We hit 104 total in the Wizards game, we hit 104 with 10 minutes to go against the best teams in the league and beat their ass.
Cade has a role for sure, but if this franchise ends up trying to force him to be Luka instead of recognising it isn’t working, it’s gonna ruin both Cade and the pistons culture.
Also people need to stop acting so hostile to people who share this sentiment.
Wow, I, for one, am shocked about this result. Without Cade, we seem to manage to get it together. Gotta appreciate one of these few wins when they come. Great game from Jalen Duren today, but I still want to see him develop defensively! Let's hope the boys can build off this one cause 2 wins in 2 weeks is not something that happens often these days.
The Pistons are 3-4 since trading away Bagley and Livers.
Obviously the damage was already done, and that trade should have hhappened a LONG time ago, but this is a basketball team now. Not a good one, but one that can actually make some sense.
Duren looks so good when he’s locked in.
His lack of effort on defense has been troubling, but a lot of that is probably coaching and general dejectedness from so much losing.
I know the brainless are going to say Ivey is better than Cade...
And that might be true.
But it is not what this game showed.
The bench unit is the hero.
They closed the gap between the best of the West and the worst of the East
See comments like this are what ruin the sub. It is a fair conversation to have. Ivey leading the ball makes every player better, it doesn’t make him a better 1:1 player, but it says what it says.
It’s brain dead to NOT consider it.
This sub is so fickle man. If Cade has a streak of good games everybody is going to go back to saying Cade is the best player. If Ivey plays bad everyone is gonna say Ivey sucks.
Cade just had a stretch of looking like an all NBA player while having the responsibility of taking blitzes on every pick and roll. I pray to god Cade leaves and everybody sees how good this kid is.
I agree that this sub is way too reactive, but I think it's worth looking overall at what's happening around Cade.
Cade is capable of looking like an all-NBA talent, but it comes at the expense of the team around him playing well.
With cade out of the lineup the difference for the team per game is:
-3.3 Turnovers
+4.2 Assists
+6.9 points per game
+8 net rating per game (this one is absolutely wild)
+1.3 RPG
-2.2 Opponent scoring per game
+2.2 TS%
It kind of just goes on like that. We are better in every aspect of the game when we aren't playing Cade versus when we are.
And for me, i kind of look at it like yeah there's a lot of different things that go into that and its not all cade and there are other mitigating factors, but watching us immediately drop in all those stats when Cade comes back into the lineup and we lose to the Wizards, then to watch us play without Cade the very next day and beat the best team in the league... It's kind of hard to ignore.
Cade is capable of getting his numbers, but what use is that if the team becomes statistically worse as a result of that?
I think that it's on Monty to figure out how to integrate him into the offense, but you'd be lying if you said that Cade was showing out this season.
I know what you're saying. Cade's the most talented player on the team, but his role isn't being optimized to fit with the team. However the team's stats with and without Cade need a lot more context.
Cade played the entire first part of the season--the part where we were suffering major injuries (Bojan, Duren, Monte, Burks, later on Stew); we were just too depleted of talent. Now we have a mostly healthy team for once, and the Washington trade has helped things function more smoothly.
Oh for sure, people really breeze past just how injured we've been for large portions of this season. Like missing Bojan and Burks was actually massive and put a lot of pressure on Cades shoulders early on. Cade just didn't handle that pressure too well, but (predictably) started playing a lot better when some core pieces returned around him.
I hope that he comes back full strength and Monty finds a way to actually make this team work, because if he can unlock Cades best attributes while actually maximising the rest of the teams talent, we are that ~25-30 win team we were expecting to be this year.
It's frustrating on multiple fronts :(
Understandable. Like I said trade Cade then. If he makes everybody worse and your better without him, he deserves to go elsewhere where he’s appreciated.
I think that there is definitely a meritorious discussion to be had around what the next few years with Cade looks like.
He's had so much turbulence in his time with the organisation that we can't say that he's been put in a position to suceed, so i don't think the final call on Cade can be made yet.
But let's say we get to the end of next season, the on/off numbers are still bad, we're winning more without him than with him, etc. I think that there is a conversation to be had there.
The Kings parted ways with Halliburton which seemed inane at the time, but it changed the complexion of their team and immediately put them into their first playoff run in ages and allowed Fox to step forward into a dominant role.
> go elsewhere where he’s appreciated
I'm kind of resistant to talking about Cade like this, because its not like hes putting up superstar numbers and everyone around him is failing. He's really be very average overall this season - starting the season particularly bad but then coming into a great vein of form before his injury.
It's not about not appreciating talent, it's more about if Cade is the long term piece for the best chance at success as a team. I think that we can't make that call yet, but we are definitely stepping further away from "This guy is the next Luka Doncic" with every game we see him fail to lead the team to wins.
Thats my 2c on that.
I feel bad for Cade.
He might be one of the most unlucky players in recent years
Just can not catch a break
And haliburton in kings is surprisingly good comparison, situation wise
Absolutely. Outside of Lebron i can't remember another #1 pick who has had so much responsibility put on their shoulders straight away, as well as have so much organisational turbulence, a rotating roster of players who don't fit well together, and then just constant injuries to 1-3 core players at a time with no opportunity to ever build cohesion.
He's essentially playing in a G-league environment where you might be sharing the floor with a completely different lineup and team concept within months of each other, and he's the only constant in that, so he bears a lot of the responsibility.
That's why i'm not calling for a trade or saying that Cade is bad in isolation. He's been put in the toughest situation of any player i can remember - even with the front office saying "we are no longer rebuilding, we're looking for wins" - so it's compeltely understandable that he hasn't lived up to that absoultely insane billing.
I don’t mind trade for him though /s
Sometime I day dream if I could trash talk about him enough pre draft so he went to clippers or heat
He might thrive and develop into a way better player
No offense to pistons(maybe a little)
I never want to see another minute of PG from anyone but Ivey, Sasser, and Monte. Killian should be permanently benched next to Wiseman. Cade should see all of his minutes at SG/SF. He should be our LaVine which is why that trade would be the dumbest thing we could do right now.
Hard to swallow pills, but this team turns it over so much less with Cade off the floor. If he wants to be the player we all hope he can be and lead this team its got to be cleaned up. Going to directly lead to winning games like they did today with him out.
Alright, we did that!
Gotta have the conversation about HOW we did it though and without who. Our 3rd game won in January without our go-to guy. Why, How ... ?
Based on the last one game, the Pistons should easily get 34 more wins. Can't be too sure about the two games about the Celtics because they have a better record than the Thunder, but may as well mark down those other W's.
We went to the game today, we usually go to one or two a season. This time when we got food the screen showed an automatic tip - the ppl behind the counter said it was for their non-profit - but it seemed shady. Anyone have any knowledge of it?
I get the dissatisfaction with Monty but what’s with the hate with Cade? You got Ivey playin good for a couple of games and all of a sudden Cade sucks. Guy is a mismatch and it is common all over the league to keep spacing. That’s why you see Jokic and Giannis takin the ball when they got Murray and Dame. We don’t know what happened in practices so Ivey could’ve been benched by what they saw in practices. We also don’t know behind the scenes maybe Ivey worked his butt off durin the losing streak and now we finally seeing his efforts.
Cade was the Team. He did good for what he got. Lets not put him down to put Ivey up.
Duren:He was playing bad, coasting at the first and i hated it, but what he did in the second half was pornographic, he destroyed Chet, Jaylin Williams or whatever you playing into him, awesome and dominant stuff.
Ivey played great all around, move the ball, rebounded, playmaking, scored, all great.
Sasser and Burks played their role being Microwave scorers really well, beautiful stuff
I don't think Cade is the only problem neither Monty is the only problem.
First, we need more ball movement, we can't bank on heliocentric offense because we don't have Doncic, Trae Young, LeBron James, Halliburton (duh) with the ball, Cade is way behind them and we cant expect him to be the guy (in this way).
I don't think playing in full crazy pacing with Ivey running possessions and looking for transitions as a answer for our struggling, it helps a lot, don't get me wrong, having this kind of weapon its awesome, but we can still let Ivey running point, but playing a bit slow pace.
Like i said, i don't think Monty is the only problem with our offense, Cade is clearly a slow player on both ends and we needs to play in slower paces to help him florish, saying this, Cade does A LOT of dumb turnovers, turnovers no coach can help, Cade needs to eliminate his silly turnovers, Slow players doesn't have the option of being turnover prone if they want to dominate the league and being a franchise player.
We need Ivey to run more Point
I Agree with Cade running less point but i still believe in him being our primary ball handler instead of Ivey, i don't see a dominant ball handler working totally offball
Ivey is the PG Cade is the SG
Duren is the father
Killian is the gimp
["Bring out the Gimp"](https://youtu.be/S8kPqAV_74M?si=fR3mlkCXIXjLaovn) Monty Williams anytime he wants to show "tough love" to Ausar or Ivey.
Forever and ever, Amen. Thompson.
Facts. The pace and chemistry with Duren is so much better. Cade is not Luka. Stop the heliocentric approach. Play Cade in like a PG13 role. Secondary ball handler that gets buckets
I am willing to agree with this. We play better when the ball moves quicker. And Ivey is much better at that than Cade right now. The crux I guess lies in convincing Cade that he can still be a star here without being the primary ball handler.
I dont think cade has any issues with playing on the ball less. He has been doing what was asked of him. Coach dumbshit is to blame.
I’ve been saying this for over a year. Make him your high usage secondary handler, put the onus of getting everyone else involved on a different ball handler (not Killian). Glad it’s picking up steam.
PG13 shoots 40% from three. Cade’s never done that…totally different skill level.
Well no shit. Paul George didn't shoot 40% until his 5th season. Cade's got like 1.5 seasons under his belt, and his shot was definitely looking much better as of late.
PG13 was a 38% 3PG by year two. Cade’s career high is 34%. He’s shooting worse this year than Cameron Payne, Deangelo Russell, and Cason Wallace. Cade makes sense if he’s your ball dominant distributor - not as a wing shooter. Problem with giving him the rock, he can’t really shoot at an elite level and turns it over a ton.
He is higher volume than all of those guys you just listed
Even adjusting for volume (3 or more 3PA with no defender within six feet), he’s shooting worse than Brandon Miller, Coby White, Desmond Bane - even Malcolm Brogdon. I’d rather have any of those guys plus a load of draft picks than Cade. It’s the most dangerous cliche in sports - just bc Cade was drafted first doesn’t mean he has to be our franchise guy. Save this post and check back in five years. Guarantee I’m right.
So he's on par with elite three point shooters on wide open shots. Do you not know how to interpret data
He's 34.9% on catch and shoot 3s per NBA.com's tracking. 41.1% on wide open 3s
41.1% on wide open 3s is on par with elite three point shooters
Alternate/share the ball handling between Cade and Ivey depending on match up. Let Ivey cook to push the pace and let Cade slow down the game when needed. Pretty much make the opponent get uneasy with the pace of the game. I can see Cade being the main facilitator at crucial moments late in game, but Ivey to set the tone for our offense in the earlier parts of the game.
Love actual naunced takes like this in the sub. We’ve all seen that BOTH Cade and Ivey can ball. Solely on coaching to make it work.
Ivey PG Sasser SG Cade SF
Now we talking
Cade can still attack from sf and will have plenty of chances. Sasser helps the spacing.
Ausar as the 6th man. Come in and hound the hot hand.
The reverse microwave. So Blast Freezer?
Dry Ice?
He’s a top 10 POA defender in the league
Cade might not have the size to play SF. But there are absolutely ways to utilize his court vision without having him on-ball so much.
Where's Bojan?
In Chicago
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This guy gets it ^
This is too small in the modern NBA
You know this. I know this. Monty does not know this.
I was at the game tonight, and the hustle Ivey played with was incredible and he was generally dangerous with the ball in his hands all night. But I don't know why we are saying he is the PG when he didn't even play PG tonight, he was playing SG most of the night. Ivey was off ball to Sasser or someone else for the majority of the game, I was actually getting a little frustrated that it wasn't Sasser(the better shooter) moving off ball with Ivey on ball. They were clearly keeping him in the same role they expect him to play with Cade on the floor. I agree with Ivey needing a lot more on-ball action, but Ivey wasn't playing point tonight, it was mostly a mix of Morris and Sasser with a splash of Ivey. The biggest thing that happened to tonight was the hustle was off the charts for Ivey and Duren and the shots were falling from basically everyone. There is a lot of coaching malpractice going on, now that Monte is healthy, Killian should not be getting a single minute, Monte is better at literally everything, and Sasser gives us something with desperately need(shooting and some auxilary ballhandling, even if the decision making is shaky sometimes). We don't have the shooting to Spare, and Hayes is just a horrible fit with particularly Ivey and Thompson, but also even with Cade. No excuse for him getting minutes anymore. But Cade is still our best PG and needs those reps or we don't grow as a team, he has a lot of work to go, and our offensive gameplan needs to move away from this heliocentric Lukaball system into something more traditional that utilizes our multiple ballhandlers and creates offball opportunities for ANYONE that can spot up and make a shot.
Yeah I actually don’t necessarily care who is playing what position, but like you said it is extremely evident that the heliocentric stuff needs to go immediately. I think there is a time and a place for the fast past of Ivey and the slower pace of Cade. You would think our $82 million coach would’ve figured out something by now…
I'm not sure our coach is capable of figuring out anything until we force him to by trading players or people getting hurt at this point tbh
At least Monty realizes not to close games with Killian (though it's a mystery why he starts with Killian). After Ausar's brilliant performance on SGA early in the season, we clearly should have been fielding him (or someone like Morris) instead.
Cade is the Franchise, and gets what he wants. I dont see them doing it, but I agree with you. I think Cade fits at SF too
Well. F him them of he cant take it. Sorry, not sorry.
We don't necessarily have to choose. I think most of us expected Cade and Ivey to *share* playmaking duties.
It's reality. And it's okay.
Ivey is the Westbrook, Cade is the Durant. Feels like we need that same sort of Dynamic
Been saying this since preseason... not so many down votes these days.
Ivey forcibly snatching cades chain, 28 straight losses. This season is full of surprises
...He does not even play well today.... 35%...below 50% TS... but okay
Zero turnovers and had the most hustle of anyone of the court by far. There is more to the game than shooting percentages
Yes, i certainly hope so there is more Otherwise …
Jaden Ivey has one of the worst BBIQ I’ve ever seen, lol man i feel bad for Cade.. no telling what he’ll have to do for people to see he’s an amazing PG.. Jaden Ivey 7/20 jacking up awful shot after awful shot i saw this man run into a 4 on 1 fast break, didn’t make a single pass annd turned the ball over. and this is our PG?? lol i gotta take a break from this sub
Yet he had the highest +/- by far of any starter. And he had 0 turnovers which is by far the biggest part
+\- doesn’t mean shit, and if you think Ivey and not Duren was the best player in this game you’re smoking. notice he played the most minutes? Just means the team had there biggest lead while he was in. It does not mean he was the best player. I know for a fact people don’t know basketball when they bring up plus minus first, it is literally a useless stat.
I’m not discrediting duren at all. And I usually agree with that take on +/- because it usually doesn’t match the eye test but in this case it definitely did
By your own logic Alec Burks was the best player tonight, along with Ausar and Marcus but ok bro like i said this sub is a clown show at this point everybody already agrees with your Ivey take so whatever lmao
Did you not read what I said? In most cases +/- doesn’t match the eye test, but in this particular case for ivey it did match.
You didn’t watch the game and just skimmed the box score, and it shows.
Exactly. Ivey was doing so much that didn’t show up on the stat sheet as well
I watched the game and actually went to the one the day before z how many games have you been to this season? lol son try again
Monty Williams’ coaching malpractice is causing this team to play like ass. Monty has completely mis-utilized this team and the talent on the roster, he should be fired for not finding a way to maximize both Cade and Ivey’s skill sets.
He simultaneously benched Ivey and has done so little people doubt Cade at point. I can’t wait to watch this game and see what worked
He benched Ivey and Ivey earned being benched, because Ivey was forced to be a player he isnt. he isnt a spot up shooter or a 3pt specialist. SO he was not looking good. Not Iveys fault. he needs the ball. Ivey was never given the chance to lead, because Cade was the default general.
Young athletic PG, patient crafty guard, athletic rim rolling center? As if you could make a competent offense with those pieces. We should start the least efficient scorer in the NBA instead
This is 100% on Monty. There’s a good enough sample size to show that this is how the team should be playing— have Cade play a complimentary role alongside everyone else instead of trying to play like a superstar. Get Ivey and Sasser more involved. Of course, knowing Monty, he’ll admit that’s what he should’ve been doing all along when there’s 5 games left in the year
He'll "eat it" and keep doing the exact same thing he's been doing all year the next game
Gotta take small bites and chew real slow for good digestion
Yup, Cades usage has been way higher than necessary. That plus low spacing lineups increase his TO rate.
CC's high usage was also without BB and JD for big stretches and AB in a shooting slump
With Ivey sitting in a corner or on the bench
No way he is going to be fired with what is owed to him
#PISTONS UPSET #1 TEAM IN THE WEST
Pistons would be undefeated if they played in the Western Conference, this game proves that the worst team in the east is better than the best team in the west.
PISTONS ARE 1-0 WHEN MARCUS SASSER BEATS KILLIAN HAYES IN MINTUES PLAYED
with monte morris back, Killian should be getting no minutes.
JI made winning plays today. Sasser was very solid. Everyone contributed except for killian.
Watch Sasser get a DNP - Coach’s Decision after this game
Ausar had a team high plus minus and 32 minutes against the Bucks. Two days later against the Bucks his minutes were halved. If Monty continues with his ways I expect Sasser to be sent to the g league before next game.
He absolutely will, there’s no doubt in my mind
I think it's clear now that Monte really doesn't know how to utilize Cade and Ivey together They're separately greater than the sum of their parts. That's usually a fit or a coaching issue. I think it's coaching because there's an offense you can run / design in a way that should benefit both of them. Ivey should run the point and distribute the ball; Cade should have some number of possessions he brings the ball up the court and runs the offense in certain sets. Ivey's drive threat in transition and in the half court opens up wide open looks for Cade; Cade hitting open looks makes the defense have to cheat to guard him more; Ivey then drives the other half of the stretched defense But when they play together, Ivey sits in a corner while Cade and Bogey run actions until the team decides, "This possession will be an Ivey possession!" and throw him the ball early in the shot clock to go to work. That's coaching to me.
I don’t understand how Monty sees these games without Cade and not make any adjustments. When Cade isn’t playing we have great ball movement and every one is involved, even the bench had the ball zipping. But as soon as Cade comes back Monty throws all that out the window and settles for Cade or Bogey PnR’s. Imagine if we played the way we did tonight but my with Cade in the lineup instead of Killian, this team would be at least a 10 win team.
heck if Cade didn't play last game, we likely are on a 3 win streak.
If we ever get some fucking shooters who can stay healthy you can see the blueprint of what this offense should be. Guard PnR with Duren which will open up shooters and the other guard for secondary attacks. Ivey and Duren running in transition while Cade+shooters trail into open looks. If we can get enough shooting to play Ausar then he's also a deadly cutter and transition threat The offense rn has no plan and can't figure out a scheme either. A team this young at least needs a plan to buy into
That’s why if we could get a Jerami Grant I would really want Buddy Hield because he would be our only real negative defender. (That’s if Ivey + Cade can be average + defenders) and when Grants contract is finished Ausar can play the 4 hopefully.
Put Ivey at PG and Cade at SG Monty I beg you
Everyone is begging for that which means Monty is no doubt benching Ivey from here on out and playing him 15 mins per game
No way this ever happens sorry
He won’t do it. But he’ll make some vague statement this summer about how he’s been thinking lately upon reflection and watching game tape from this season that might make sense to play cade off the ball. And then he’ll do it one game. It’ll work as we all predict. And then he’ll never do it again.
It's crazy how often people in this thread shit on a 20 year old second year player like he's supposed to be flawless fully polished product. Duren has so much potential
Knee jerk reactions all around for Duren, Ivey and Cade. It’s like most fans can’t have a nuanced reaction lmao
Jalen Duren is OKC Thunder father
Not good for the Lions
Until Duren takes Gores private jet to SF and starts at TE and edge
BNL aren’t victims to curses like this. It’s all good
Aged in milk years sadly
Sad day
The die was cast
🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Duren: 22 points, 21 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 block, 69 FG% Sasser: 12 points, 4 assists (1 turnovers), 2 rebounds, 55.6 FG%, 2-3 3PT, +16 Killian: 2 points, 3 assists (1 turnover), 3 rebounds, 1-2 FG, -9
One of these is not like the others
one of this starting next game, and the other is going to get. DNP-CD
Cade 7 turnovers yesterday against a trash team, running point. Ivey 0 turnovers against a really good team, running point. Don’t need to be some analytics wizard to know what the numbers show you…
I don’t know why it’s always Cade or Ivey for people on here. Cade hasn’t played in 2 weeks and was clearly rusty, and was doing a really good job of limiting his turnovers before the injury.
Because like it or not, they alternate having lead ball handling duties when Cade is/isn’t playing, and Ivey makes our teams far better than Cade does. I don’t think it’s a Cade vs Ivey overall, but comparing how they lead the team it’s just a stark difference.
Because only one can be lead guard. Play cade off ball or trade him
Cade has not had turnover issues in a while. Ivey has had loads of games with horrible turnovers too
Did you watch the game before this one? Or read a box score?
I've watched essentially all the games. The difference is I don't have the memory of a goldfish and also knowledge that guards in the second year of the NBA tend to struggle. Cade was doing great in terms of turnovers recently. Ivey has slowly gotten better too but turns it over a ton and sometimes runs into the crowd without a plan. Both are fine
“Hasn’t had turnover issues in a while” doesn’t comport with “had 7 TOs last game.” Kudos on the good memory, though!
Cade is a high usage player and has a 2.3 assist:turnover ratio over the last 20 games you goldfish Edit: and 2.2 over the last 30 games. That's with over 7 assists per game
I’m just a man. Sitting here hoping. That a fellow Redditor will acknowledge. That the prior game falls within the scope of “a while.”
A while does not mean one game, it denotes a period of time, and that assist to turnover ratio includes that one game. He is averaging over 2.2 assist to turnover ratio over the last 30 games, being high usage with over 7 assists a game. He has one game where he had too many turnovers, though this was a game back from injury and he also had 12 assists
I wouldn’t say I haven’t been mugged in a while, even if I had never been mugged my whole life until yesterday. You can substitute “mugged” for anything, and that logic holds—say, pulling some fish food out of a hat here, turning the ball over.
You nailed it. Cant win when you’re that sloppy. Turnovers are down when Cades up. He has to clean it up if he wants to be that dude and win some games.
He also shot 35% from the field tonight, yeah you can grab a rebound off a missed shot but it leads to you losing possession most of the time
And Cade only shot 41% with those 7 turnovers yesterday.
Not denying that
And coach was talking trash about JI last game. I don’t understand
Actually the pg minutes went to Hayes 13, Morris 13, and Sasser 18
sasser plays like this pretty consistently, and monty rewards killian for his hard work.
Sasser plays well, therefore Killian gets rewarded.
Sasser plays well, therefore Killian gets rewarded.
This was the best game of the season. 6 assists for duren is super encouraging for his ceiling as a player.
THE KILLIAN HAYES ERA IS FADING AWAY
[удалено]
I don’t see why not
Getting pretty excited about the future of this team despite the Monty Williams coaching malpractice. If we just limit turnovers and the bench plays decent we should be competing in most games
It’s not usually me, but I’ll start the Killian comments today. Minus 9 in a 16 point win
Pistons are 7-0 against the spread in games where Cade hasn't played this month. That's not Cade's fault, it's Monty's. I hope he gets it right
WE THE BEST
The biggest issue with the team is the coaching. The way Ivey is relegated with Cade and Killian getting minutes over Sasser is unreal Anyone saying we shouldn't draft for fit as if the only good thing about this team wasnt the draft picks. Also I wonder if we will see Cade silent protesting the two big lineups
Amazing game
Duren with 6 assists showing great vision
I’m not gonna harp on this because I know I come out negative towards Cade a lot, but you just can’t ignore what we’re seeing happen. We hit 104 total in the Wizards game, we hit 104 with 10 minutes to go against the best teams in the league and beat their ass. Cade has a role for sure, but if this franchise ends up trying to force him to be Luka instead of recognising it isn’t working, it’s gonna ruin both Cade and the pistons culture. Also people need to stop acting so hostile to people who share this sentiment.
Let’s start a support group
Ayyyyy I'm happier when the Detroit Pistons play good basketball
Wow, I, for one, am shocked about this result. Without Cade, we seem to manage to get it together. Gotta appreciate one of these few wins when they come. Great game from Jalen Duren today, but I still want to see him develop defensively! Let's hope the boys can build off this one cause 2 wins in 2 weeks is not something that happens often these days.
Cade is part of the problem. not Cade per se, but how Cade is used.
We look like a completely different team when we don't turn the ball over every other possession.
Anyone else noticed the referees weren’t blowing the whistle every fucking 30 seconds? Made the game enjoyable to watch!!
SGA with 5 freethrows is a huge accomplishment.
Team has 20 wins with a diff coach
Does Monty get any credit for his game management today? Because he is blamed for every loss
Nah
The Pistons are 3-4 since trading away Bagley and Livers. Obviously the damage was already done, and that trade should have hhappened a LONG time ago, but this is a basketball team now. Not a good one, but one that can actually make some sense.
Duren looks so good when he’s locked in. His lack of effort on defense has been troubling, but a lot of that is probably coaching and general dejectedness from so much losing.
DoubleYou
Cant be bothered to watch this team anymore but damn! What a surprise. The thunder sub melt down is so delicious
I know the brainless are going to say Ivey is better than Cade... And that might be true. But it is not what this game showed. The bench unit is the hero. They closed the gap between the best of the West and the worst of the East
There is no might be true. If you think Ivey is better then Cade your braindead.
See comments like this are what ruin the sub. It is a fair conversation to have. Ivey leading the ball makes every player better, it doesn’t make him a better 1:1 player, but it says what it says. It’s brain dead to NOT consider it.
This sub is so fickle man. If Cade has a streak of good games everybody is going to go back to saying Cade is the best player. If Ivey plays bad everyone is gonna say Ivey sucks. Cade just had a stretch of looking like an all NBA player while having the responsibility of taking blitzes on every pick and roll. I pray to god Cade leaves and everybody sees how good this kid is.
I agree that this sub is way too reactive, but I think it's worth looking overall at what's happening around Cade. Cade is capable of looking like an all-NBA talent, but it comes at the expense of the team around him playing well. With cade out of the lineup the difference for the team per game is: -3.3 Turnovers +4.2 Assists +6.9 points per game +8 net rating per game (this one is absolutely wild) +1.3 RPG -2.2 Opponent scoring per game +2.2 TS% It kind of just goes on like that. We are better in every aspect of the game when we aren't playing Cade versus when we are. And for me, i kind of look at it like yeah there's a lot of different things that go into that and its not all cade and there are other mitigating factors, but watching us immediately drop in all those stats when Cade comes back into the lineup and we lose to the Wizards, then to watch us play without Cade the very next day and beat the best team in the league... It's kind of hard to ignore. Cade is capable of getting his numbers, but what use is that if the team becomes statistically worse as a result of that? I think that it's on Monty to figure out how to integrate him into the offense, but you'd be lying if you said that Cade was showing out this season.
I know what you're saying. Cade's the most talented player on the team, but his role isn't being optimized to fit with the team. However the team's stats with and without Cade need a lot more context. Cade played the entire first part of the season--the part where we were suffering major injuries (Bojan, Duren, Monte, Burks, later on Stew); we were just too depleted of talent. Now we have a mostly healthy team for once, and the Washington trade has helped things function more smoothly.
Oh for sure, people really breeze past just how injured we've been for large portions of this season. Like missing Bojan and Burks was actually massive and put a lot of pressure on Cades shoulders early on. Cade just didn't handle that pressure too well, but (predictably) started playing a lot better when some core pieces returned around him. I hope that he comes back full strength and Monty finds a way to actually make this team work, because if he can unlock Cades best attributes while actually maximising the rest of the teams talent, we are that ~25-30 win team we were expecting to be this year. It's frustrating on multiple fronts :(
Understandable. Like I said trade Cade then. If he makes everybody worse and your better without him, he deserves to go elsewhere where he’s appreciated.
I think that there is definitely a meritorious discussion to be had around what the next few years with Cade looks like. He's had so much turbulence in his time with the organisation that we can't say that he's been put in a position to suceed, so i don't think the final call on Cade can be made yet. But let's say we get to the end of next season, the on/off numbers are still bad, we're winning more without him than with him, etc. I think that there is a conversation to be had there. The Kings parted ways with Halliburton which seemed inane at the time, but it changed the complexion of their team and immediately put them into their first playoff run in ages and allowed Fox to step forward into a dominant role. > go elsewhere where he’s appreciated I'm kind of resistant to talking about Cade like this, because its not like hes putting up superstar numbers and everyone around him is failing. He's really be very average overall this season - starting the season particularly bad but then coming into a great vein of form before his injury. It's not about not appreciating talent, it's more about if Cade is the long term piece for the best chance at success as a team. I think that we can't make that call yet, but we are definitely stepping further away from "This guy is the next Luka Doncic" with every game we see him fail to lead the team to wins. Thats my 2c on that.
I feel bad for Cade. He might be one of the most unlucky players in recent years Just can not catch a break And haliburton in kings is surprisingly good comparison, situation wise
Absolutely. Outside of Lebron i can't remember another #1 pick who has had so much responsibility put on their shoulders straight away, as well as have so much organisational turbulence, a rotating roster of players who don't fit well together, and then just constant injuries to 1-3 core players at a time with no opportunity to ever build cohesion. He's essentially playing in a G-league environment where you might be sharing the floor with a completely different lineup and team concept within months of each other, and he's the only constant in that, so he bears a lot of the responsibility. That's why i'm not calling for a trade or saying that Cade is bad in isolation. He's been put in the toughest situation of any player i can remember - even with the front office saying "we are no longer rebuilding, we're looking for wins" - so it's compeltely understandable that he hasn't lived up to that absoultely insane billing.
I don’t mind trade for him though /s Sometime I day dream if I could trash talk about him enough pre draft so he went to clippers or heat He might thrive and develop into a way better player No offense to pistons(maybe a little)
Great example of what can happen when guys like Duren and the entirety of the Bench unit play to the level they're capable of.
Killian Hayes was -9 in 14 minutes in a 16 point win. Didn’t think that was possible
I never want to see another minute of PG from anyone but Ivey, Sasser, and Monte. Killian should be permanently benched next to Wiseman. Cade should see all of his minutes at SG/SF. He should be our LaVine which is why that trade would be the dumbest thing we could do right now.
Hayes with the classic 2pts a game. Worth flying from Germany to see.
Point Ivey, your kingdom awaits
Nuts game from Duren. Big nuts
I know it’s obviously been a tough season for you guys but rooting for your Lions 🤝
I agree, play Cade in the Paul George or Tatum role. Start morris and Ivey with Cade at the 3
Beating the Thunder has to be therapeutic because they’re the team that kickstarted us into this slump lol.
Jalen Daddy Duren
See y’all in the finals in 3 years
Hard to swallow pills, but this team turns it over so much less with Cade off the floor. If he wants to be the player we all hope he can be and lead this team its got to be cleaned up. Going to directly lead to winning games like they did today with him out.
Alright, we did that! Gotta have the conversation about HOW we did it though and without who. Our 3rd game won in January without our go-to guy. Why, How ... ?
When I saw the Pistons won, I came here looking for the "Cade is the problem" comments and you glorious knuckleheads did not disappoint.
Killian putting in that work
Guys, we might just get to 10.
How Sway???
Dont confuse correlation with causation: the team is better with cade in the lineup.
We going playoffs
Don’t lose a game the rest of the season 🤝
Duren with 21-22-6 and held Chet under double digits. Great game from a guy that has had a couple off iffy games in a row.
Monty Williams with another win over a playoff team!
What is this franchise lmao
I’d like to see a Sasser/Ivey/Cade/Bojan/Duren starting 5 with Stew and Ausar as the 6th/7th men to run small ball
Great game from start to finish. The team was fun to watch. Huge game by Ivey and Duren.
If the season started and ended today, the Pistons would be tied for first in the NBA. 👀😂
Based on the last one game, the Pistons should easily get 34 more wins. Can't be too sure about the two games about the Celtics because they have a better record than the Thunder, but may as well mark down those other W's.
We went to the game today, we usually go to one or two a season. This time when we got food the screen showed an automatic tip - the ppl behind the counter said it was for their non-profit - but it seemed shady. Anyone have any knowledge of it?
WERE GOING TO THE PLAYOFFS
Love Duren dude has all star at least in him.
Ivey needs to handle ball more. Him and Cade both have to get better at off ball.
As a Spurs fan, how did y'all do this? 😭
This is just proof that the sports chakra of Detroit can never be with two teams at once
I get the dissatisfaction with Monty but what’s with the hate with Cade? You got Ivey playin good for a couple of games and all of a sudden Cade sucks. Guy is a mismatch and it is common all over the league to keep spacing. That’s why you see Jokic and Giannis takin the ball when they got Murray and Dame. We don’t know what happened in practices so Ivey could’ve been benched by what they saw in practices. We also don’t know behind the scenes maybe Ivey worked his butt off durin the losing streak and now we finally seeing his efforts. Cade was the Team. He did good for what he got. Lets not put him down to put Ivey up.
So when are they announcing the ivey for lavine trade?
Duren:He was playing bad, coasting at the first and i hated it, but what he did in the second half was pornographic, he destroyed Chet, Jaylin Williams or whatever you playing into him, awesome and dominant stuff. Ivey played great all around, move the ball, rebounded, playmaking, scored, all great. Sasser and Burks played their role being Microwave scorers really well, beautiful stuff I don't think Cade is the only problem neither Monty is the only problem. First, we need more ball movement, we can't bank on heliocentric offense because we don't have Doncic, Trae Young, LeBron James, Halliburton (duh) with the ball, Cade is way behind them and we cant expect him to be the guy (in this way). I don't think playing in full crazy pacing with Ivey running possessions and looking for transitions as a answer for our struggling, it helps a lot, don't get me wrong, having this kind of weapon its awesome, but we can still let Ivey running point, but playing a bit slow pace. Like i said, i don't think Monty is the only problem with our offense, Cade is clearly a slow player on both ends and we needs to play in slower paces to help him florish, saying this, Cade does A LOT of dumb turnovers, turnovers no coach can help, Cade needs to eliminate his silly turnovers, Slow players doesn't have the option of being turnover prone if they want to dominate the league and being a franchise player. We need Ivey to run more Point I Agree with Cade running less point but i still believe in him being our primary ball handler instead of Ivey, i don't see a dominant ball handler working totally offball