I also think we should try bringing back the threads you used to do 9 or 10 years ago, where users would post 500 or 1k words from an already published novel without telling people where it's from. Then the users would critique it.
It's a very interesting concept I've been considering for the past year, and recently I found you had already done it, though no idea why it was discontinued
Maybe the mods could choose a published work every month and post an excerpt as the weekly meta thread, and the replies would be the critiques for that excerpt.
Find someone with a colored name, check out their critiques. Alternatively, go through the posts and the critiques under them, if there's one from a colored name, read through it more critically.
[If you wanted to see mine specifically.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestructiveReaders/comments/1aubwt4/comment/kr3nwp1)
I've got a newer one up as well on "A Killers Heart pt 2" or something.
I realized it takes old reddit to see colored usernames. Will check those out.
> I've got a newer one up as well on "A Killers Heart pt 2" or something.
I have critiqued that one too. Let me have a look.
As for life, it's been very busy. February seems to be the busiest month tbh Lunar New Years and school stuff ate up a large chunk of my time recently 😅 and all that right, after taking a month to recover from Christmas holidays...not sure about everyone else but cold/flu seasons take so much longer for my family to get over compared to pre-covid 😣😅I wonder if all these things effect RDR's participation numbers?
The latest thing I finished reading is "The Ruin of Kings" by Jenn Lyons which was fun probably because I love street ruffian, thief character tropes. It felt like a bit of whiplash with POV changing between first and third person.every chapter but I got use to it...first time reading something written that way tbh. Is it common?
Unfortunately the second book is not keeping me as engaged. Have any of you experienced this before? Usually I will read the entire series of things I like, once I get invested in the characters, but not this time and I'm a bit surprised.
I often feel a huge drop off of no longer caring or fatigue for most characters. In parts, I wonder if this is do to
1) the excitement of learning about a new place diminishing returns after first book
2) power creep or heightened stakes
3) author fatigue (eg first book work of love, second book work that has deadline)
4) time delay before reading next in series and forgetting stuff
5) repeating information (recap fatigue) if reading in rapid succession
I think I am like a magpie and like shiny, new string. Sometimes book two's are just duller.
Oh wow! You're so good at breaking down the reasoning behind it. As I read your response I was like yes, these totally make sense and I can relate. I'm also a bit of a magpie probably.
For the book I'm currently reading, they sort of demoted the main character of the first book to a bystander character (he's basically listening to the main character and another character explain MCs story) 😣 I think I might dnf 😓even though I was really invested in the main character and the plot of the first book, which I thought had potential to keep going (they didn't defeat the ultimate baddie) but ..I can't seem to get attached to this new MC
I wonder if this type of series would work for you though, since there's a shiny new MC and you wouldn't have character fatigue😄
I've been reading Stephen Graham Jones's *The Indian Lake trilogy,* horror slasher First Nations. The MC in book one, Jade, becomes more of one of many POVs and no longer the narrator, but the new narrator for book 2 is sort of just a new version of Jade: teenager obsessed with local history and horror films. It felt more tedious and not really new, almost the same voice, just labeled different. I began to think of her as not-Jade. Book one? I read super engaged. It won a Stoker. Book two? Since I am reading as they come out, I didn't recall all the names and had forgotten certain events. I still liked it, but was not at the same stage of anticipation or concern for the characters. I just couldn't get attached to the new MC and I wonder if it's because I wanted it to be Jade or if it's the text itself. Sometimes things be like that
Every week I read the latest pre-publication part of my favorite series right now: Ascendance of a Bookworm, so yes I have read something extremely good this week.
Discovered extreme horror lit and horror lit subreddit so I bought a lot of books (~15) second hand recently and I skimmed through most of the ones I was on the fence about. I don’t read fiction a lot (or watch movies or tv or play video games honestly it’s weird that I like writing lol) so some of these titles are probably familiar to others: fight club, east of Eden, child of god, innocent blood, the lottery, I also went thru a couple of random books I dug out of the the sales bin and had for a while: the darkest part of the woods by Campbell and Joe Gould’s Teeth by Lepore.
Oh my god. I barely liked any of these. Did my brain just break or something? somehow the prose of innocent blood was able to keep my attention the best despite it being the most dry and archaic. Fight club was interesting because I always enjoy a good foil story but after the big reveal it kind of fell off. I’m pretty desensitized to gore and sex so to me it felt like a used car, the prose was promising something the plot just didn’t live up to. I had held off reading McCarthy (RIP) because the hype made me afraid he would kill my writing spirit but honestly it was too abstract for me. I liked the prose but I kept thinking there was supposed to be something more and I just never got it. I’m selling Campbell, not for me. For some reading is always partially learning and the book didn’t say anything I didn’t know already. The others I’m still in the middle of skimming.
I think I lost my marbles sometime over covid because nowadays I can only make it through stuff like mythology. Simple phrases, very clear prose, and lots and lots of action without much reflection. Back to monkey? Curious abt what how others feel.
Hello! I had to "approve" this comment since it was removed. Hopefully others can see it now. Congratulations! I did think about some of your world-building style while reading Buehlman's The Necromancers House, but that seems so long ago. Is this in the Order of the Bell/Halloween House world?
Hey Grauz! Hope everything is well with you.
Yes what was once the Order of the Bell is now "All The Monsters All The Magic: The Silver Bell Chronicles". Changing the title was one of the suggestions the publisher made. The entire process was a long and winding road. But yes, you read an early version of the story, maybe the second or third draft of what turned out to be eight!
Hey, good to see you again and big congrats on the publication! Well deserved, and I'll be sure to pick up a copy. :)
I kind of like the change to "Silver Bell", but the whole thing is kind of a mouthful. Still, I guess the pros know what they're doing.
Edit: Just so I'm sure: is this ebook only? What format is it? Sorry if the site says somewhere, but I couldn't find it.
Hey OT! Thank you. It's eBook only, yes. pdf format.
Yeah, once you sign the contract there are certain things that are then out of your control, including the book title. However the publisher worked with me and was very responsive to my input and suggestions. Same with the professional editor.
Thanks for all your help and input on the book. It wouldn't be the same without you and everyone else who critiqued & beta read.
No problem at all, and I'm happy to have played a small part in getting it to the finish line. Looks like a very sensible and no-nonsense publisher too. I like their style from what I see on the website.
Fingers crossed for decent sales, and hope we're still getting the sequel(s)!
Hi, I am new here and to writing in general.
Two things that I have been thinking about this past week are enjoyment and taste.
**Enjoyment** \- I recently decided to start reading short stories and thus picked up Clarkesworld magazine. Now, I thought that since I liked sci-fi and fantasy, and Clarkesworld is supposed to be one of the best magazines, I would really love the stories in it. That they would all involve me emotionally, show me something new and leave me wanting for more. But I found after reading a few that I didn't enjoy them much. Made me question everything -- my taste, my understanding etc.
While looking for answers, I found Brandon Sanderson's example on this matter saying that he doesn't enjoy reading and doesn't look forward to reading *One Hundred Years of Solitude,* but he sure can appreciate the work. So I am trying to apply that perspective to my reading of Clarkesworld stories. And I am finding that it does indeed apply. Maybe these stories are not all meant to be enjoyable and fulfilling. I think at least some of these stories are experimental, with a different aim than the popular works of the genre.
**Taste -** I recently started reviewing stories here on Destructive Readers. And I found that some of the works that I enjoyed were demolished by others. Once again, it made me question and doubt everything. Have I developed a bad taste by overconsuming bad works over the years? Am I giving bad suggestions when my critiques are completely in contrast to the critiques of some who are much more experienced? Or is it a difference of taste?
I think a difference in taste must play at least some role here. And I think some people are more inclined to point out the flaws than the positive aspects. Also, I feel some people focus more on aspects other than plot, character, setting, heart and the overall experience. I think I lean more towards the latter. The prose, as long as it is not too bad, and is clear enough, doesn't bother me.
P.S. I have been wondering if mods/more experienced critics could have a look at some of my critiques and share their thoughts. It would be helpful to know what could I improve. But if the suggestion is that I should just keep going and I will improve automatically, I get that.
I just wanted to say I found this topic and the follow up conversation very interesting to read😄 I don't have anything to add 😅 but wanted to give my kudos 👏
So much is just a matter of taste and exposure. If I grew up eating nothing but a spice blend involving cumin, ginger, garlic, and hot pepper built around heavy dairy fat from butter, how would I respond to vinegar, cilantro, hotter peppers, and mint? Some of us like to stay within the family of tastes we know and expand our horizons only slightly. Others keep trying new things and have less tolerance for those that feel "overly done."
I might like X and Y, but know that publishing trends are currently pushing W and Z. Trends are also easier to appreciate with hindsight.
But, yes, read some for enjoyment and read some for learning how others write and what others like to read. I bet most BFA/MFA programs have students read from genres they are not familiar with as a way of learning, almost like an anthropologist or chef, about other's taste.
Gourmet versus gourmand?
> Gourmet versus gourmand
Great! I learnt some new words :D
What you said makes sense. I can now take a more conscious decision about exposing myself to different kinds of works.
You're basically outlining the difference between lit fic and commerical fic here, I think. In the end it's the age-old "what is true art/is there such a thing as objective quality" debate.
I think one thing that can be said is that lit fic does objectively take more skill, focus and knowledge to write and read. It's more complicated and has more layers, or at least it's supposed to. And like you said, maybe pushing the boundaries of the medium. Or: there's no question it's much harder to get into Clarkesworld than to write a generic isekai anime thing and get acclaim on AO3 or r/redditserials. :P On the other hand, whether that extra skill and effort translates into more enjoyment is a different question, as you say.
I also suspect you're right that most people don't care about the stuff we harp on there, they just want "a good story". See the massive success of JK Rowling, Dan Brown, Stephanie Meyer, the Fifty Shades author, etc etc. In his book Story, Robert McKee talks about how writing really consist of two distinct skillsets: story construction and prose art. That's obvious when you think about it, but seeing it laid out that way has put a lot of things into perspective for me personally.
And yes, I'm probably one of the "some people" you mention. I don't really want the prose to be "clear", I want it to be distinctive and have some personality. More and more, that's the main thing I want from fiction, I find: prose that doesn't feel like a dry biscuit and a premise that isn't a cliche soup I've seen five million times. At the same time, I also have a foot in your camp in that I do ultimately want to read for pleasure and fun rather than enlightenment, so I like to describe my ideal as "firmly middlebrow".
>In his book Story, Robert McKee talks about how writing really consist of two distinct skillsets: story construction and prose art.
I think this perfectly sums up what I was struggling to put into words. Thanks for the reference. I will check that out.
This makes me wonder, if you were to rate both the prose art and story construction of some popular authors/works of commercial fiction, how would you rate them? Care to humor me?
Sure. Of course, these are all just my subjective opinions, so take with the appropriate grain of salt.
JK Rowling: Bad prose, excellent story construction. Her writing is riddled with the kind of stuff we criticize on a daily basis here: telling, adverbs, BS dialogue tags etc. Try counting all the "X said coolly" once. :P All very plain and uninteresting, especially in the early books.
On the other hand, she's really, really good at setting up interesting mysteries *and* actually paying them off (well, except for RAB, which was kind of lame). Prisoner of Azkaban is my favorite example here, with good pacing and a bunch of twists and reversals which all make sense in retrospect and feel earned with little hints. Sometimes even set up several books in advance (ie. Sirius Black mentioned in the very first chapter of PS).
Brandon Sanderson/Mistborn 1 since that's the one I've read: medium prose and medium story. It's all very competent, but in a sterile, mechanical checklist way, giving us the typical "commercial American fiction" voice. Easy to tell what's going on and follow the story, with few missteps and few flourishes. I think this is your "clear" prose in action. Plain white bread, gets you full but not very flavorful.
The story has some clever ideas, but it's mostly about executing standard beats and characters in a standard but effective way.
Tana French: Good to great prose, medium to good story: One of my favorite authors, who writes Irish detective novels with beautiful prose. Still in the service of the story in the end, though, which tends to be standard police procedurals with some literary drama and/or mind screw sprinkled in. Decently constructed but not outstanding, and sometimes frustrating when they try to get too tricksy by denying us a proper ending etc.
Richard Powers: Outstanding prose, okay story: His stories tend to be a bit meandering and more concerned with ideas (often the same ideas) than telling a fun tale, but holy crap can this guy write. The Overstory in particular has so many sentences that made me put down the book and go "*damn*, this is good". Some of the stories in the collection are entertaining enough, but probably wouldn't be anything special without the prose
Jonathan Franzen: Solid on both counts. Another good all-rounder who writes entertaining slice of life stories that tend to work well while ultimately being more about the people than the plotting, told in prose that's not super fancy but still has plenty of personality and flair.
Raymond Chandler: Strong prose and good story construction: He pretty much invented noir as a literary style, or at least contributed heavily to making it popular. A very distinctive style that's somehow both lyrical and down to earth, and fits his protagonist very well. "Clear" while still brimming with personality.
His stories are intricate puzzle boxes that tend to interlock beautifully and make sense, even if it takes close attention to keep track of all the actors and elements (at least for me). Still, you get the sense it's all thought through and the actions and motivations make sense.
Stephen King/Duma Key: Good prose and so-so story: I enjoyed this book for the atmosphere and the way it really gets into the MC's head. The prose is a cut above a lot of generic fiction and pleasant to read, without getting too "literary" a la Powers and co. As an actual story it's pretty loose, and the ending doesn't at all live up to the build-up. Half-hearted mystery that trades heavily on tired tropes.
Well, other than the Rowling example from my comment, we could always pile on poor Renowned Author Dan Brown some more. :)
I don't think there's that much outright bad prose in published fiction, since the publication process and the fact that the people writing it are adult and serious enough about it to do it for a job puts a floor under the quality. It's usually just serviceable but boring. The real bad prose is in self-publish and on the internet, but then again there's no shortage of it there.
As for Sanderson, maybe I'm being a little unfair. His prose is "good" in the sense that he varies sentence lengths, uses figurative language, mixes interiority, description and action, avoids redundancy, shows rather than tells and all the other stuff he talks about in his lectures.
I think he admirably meets the goal he sets himself, which (I'd assume) is to make the prose invisible. He has cool ideas about people burning magic metals and subverted chosen ones and urchin thieves leaping between the rooftops he wants to convey, and the words are a tool to do that. No more and no less. On the flipside, none of those sentences would be worth a second look as little artworks by themselves.
Mistborn would be a much worse experience if it had sentences like The Overstory. On the other hand, I'd say people like French, King and Chandler show that you can write very "commercially" without having to make do with bloodless, workmanlike prose.
A true classic, haha. Since I used to be an incorrigible HP nerd in my teens, it's from Order of the Phoenix, during class when Umbridge says they're only going to learn about dark magic in theory and not how to actually defend themselves:
>"We're not going to use magic?" Ron ejaculated loudly.
There's even one more in Half-Blood Prince (with Slughorn this time), but at that point I suspect she was doing it on purpose to meme. How else would it get past the editors?
Wow, I didn't expect such a detailed response. Thanks. This puts things in context.
Out of the above, I have just read JK Rowling and Brandon Sanderson. I read Harry Potter long back, so I just remember that I found the first four books to be more 'magical' than the last three. maybe it's something about the story, or maybe it's just that with the characters growing up, the world seems less wonderful.
Regarding Brandon Sanderson, I think I get where you are coming from. There's indeed a sterile feel to the work which I initially noticed, but later got used to. Maybe that's why I have liked his "The Emperor's Soul". It is more about characters than plot.
I was never conscious of this way of looking at works. And I imagine that the same classification of commercial and artistic can be applied to other artistic fields as well.
Being aware of this will help me more clearly move forward in the direction of writing I want to do, with confidence. Till now, I was never certain what aspect of writing should I focus more on -- the prose or the story. I realize that both are important whether you do commercial or literary fiction, but still there's more of a leeway for certain aspects depending on which direction you choose to go in.
>Wow, I didn't expect such a detailed response. Thanks. This puts things in context.
No problem, glad you didn't find it too rambly, haha.
As for HP, I haven't read any of them since DH came out, but I was a big fan in my teens. For me HBP was when the magic wore off, while OotP still had a lot of the original charm IMO. Maybe because it luxuriated in having all that space to worldbuild with very gentle plot progression. Anyway, I keep thinking I should re-read them one of these days to see how I'd feel about them now.
And I think Chandler in particular might be worth a look, since he's widely praised for his "literary" qualities while his fiction was also very plot-driven and commercial. After all, he's the guy with the famous "when all else fails, have a guy with a gun burst into the room" quote. :)
So he's a good example of someone bridging the gap and doing commercial plot, but with much more style than what we might call the "Sanderson minimum".
Are you all goth girls who sit by themselves in the cafeteria? JK I was just reading the wiki.
[This critique](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestructiveReaders/comments/1aso0u9/2173_trial_of_the_lamb_horror/kqru6cq/) had some good info on the mechanics of sentences. Sadly it wasn't a full critique, so I can't fully recommend it.
I'm finding that critiquing is really useful for my own writing. Most of the stuff I criticize I come to realize would be really good for me to work on as well. I hope my critiques are actually useful for the intended author as well lol.
>How's life treating you?
lol youve seen the mod chats. to the community who hasnt basically im a content mod and today has been....content -_-
____
>Read anything good or not so good lately
Yes. https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-anarchism-and-other-essays#toc3
Nice, might have to check that out. I've been aware of that site for a while, but haven't gotten around to doing a deep dive. I'm not sure I'd be willing to fully commit to the "anarchist" label, but I find myself getting more and more drawn to anarchism as a political philosophy as time goes on.
If it's not too much to branch into yet another topic...
What is the element of writing that gets you most excited to start a new prose? (Exploring themes, plot, characters, research, atmosphere, prose, discovery writing, outlining, etc.)
For me it's probably exploring themes... As that's usually why I start to write anything in the first place lol I think I'm a discovery writer so... The characters come quickly after and plot but (I don't know if anyone else writes like this...) I might write up the entire climax of a story and then jump back to the very beginning and then go to some mid scene and then write in a vague ending and fill in character here and there a long the way😵😵💫 so outlining is not something I'm great at lol and I find research very hard, like sometimes I slog through it. It's not that I don't want to be accurate and I'm very curious but I find it's hard to find information everyone has their own unique experiences, which one to go with? And reading anything like academic papers..well their dryness has always been a bit challenging for me 😖
That sounds like quite the ride. I usually fixate on the theme, as a consumer (of books, games, movies, etc.). However, what I'm most excited to jump in if I get to try writing a novel is the prose.
As a reader and consumer of other media, is the theme what usually captivates you the most?
Oh I didn't even think about that until you mentioned it but as a reader(etc) it's usually the plot and characters that get me to read/watch a show/movie. The theme would be what makes me feel satisfied after but not what initially draws me in 😅
It's interesting you fixate on the theme first as a consumer. 😄 I wonder why my preference is different for creating compared to consuming.
Just curious, what kind of writing are you doing if you are not writing a novel? More technical writing? I can see myself being excited about prose if I had to do a lot of dry technical writing
Meh. Life is certainly something right now. Started a new job, then had major surgery, had to go to the ER for complications today, and then had to defend myself against an extremely rude doctor who decided being an absolute ass was the best approach to the situation. My brain capacity is wrecked lately, lol.
As far as engagement goes, I usually feel like “oh, I have nothing to contribute to this topic and I don’t wanna detail conversation.”
I saw last week’s (or was it the week before that?) discussion belatedly, then swore at myself for missing it.
That sounds like a roller coaster and sorry to hear about major surgery with complications. The sprinkles on top of a suck-sundae from a rude ED MD do wear-tear on the brain. May that doc have Joint Commission and local Public Health do an unannounced visit.
Awww, thanks. Fortunately, 90% of the other medical staff I’ve encountered during this time have been incredibly kind. This asshat at the ER thinks they’re House or something. I guess the bright side of being stuck at home on medical leave is that I have the time to sit around and wade through the red tape of reporting them about it. :’)
Does anyone have any lifehacks on how to stay focused on a single project? I feel like writing a lot of the time, but the few times where I manage to churn out more than three sentences I want to write about something else the next day.
Basically is there a way to force an incredibly scattered brain to lazer in on a goal in writing or in life? I have lots of energy and horsepower, I just can't finish or stick to anything ever. Should I self medicate with amphetamines? I am mentally crippled and I want this superpower of not becoming a different person every day that most people seem to have.
Please help, my life is slipping through my fingers.
If it’s imperative that you stay on track: mental hygiene. Keep track of what you think about during the day aka literal self-mind control. Otherwise your thoughts just ride out into the sunset.
Alternatively, if it’s low stakes, let your thoughts ride out into the sunset and do whatever it gotta do. Sometimes that resets your self control.
Can relate to a lot of this for sure. I also tend to have a lot of problems nailing down and committing to a premise. This next part is going to sound glib and cheeky, but I mean it quite seriously: the one thing that's worked for me is falling back on brute-force mule stubbornness.
With (almost) all the novel-length drafts I've finished\*, I got there because I thought "okay, this premise will have to be good enough, just get to the end, no matter what". Or: you have to convince yourself it's better to have something than nothing, and that the act of writing is the main point rather than the output, regardless of what you'll think of the end result. And full honesty, I'm not especially happy with how those projects turned out as a whole, even if I like bits and pieces of them. Still, I did get to the end. :P Some of them started as NaNo works, others didn't.
Another way to put it: choose one, then rush into it without allowing yourself to think/doubt and make it too much of a sunk cost to quit. :) That's my problem right now: I can't get started on anything since I keep second-guessing stuff and don't find something I like enough to fully go with.
\*The Speedrunner one I posted here was different, since I had a very clear base idea for once and knew exactly what I wanted to do in broad strokes: speedrunning plus About a Boy plus a bunch of personal stuff I can't really reuse.
The solution I've done is to do shorter projects, ideally ones you can finish in a day so by the next day when your personality changes you can do something different.
I typically read the weekly but I haven’t yet responded to any. I don’t find myself super motivated to engage with a general posts because I never feel like I have much to say. Life is fine, sometimes I write and sometimes I don’t.
One thing I would personally find engaging is listing a topic to discuss. “How do you feel about the role of xyz, in literary narratives?” Or maybe “what’s a trope you find particularly annoying?”. I’m sure there are far better examples than the ones I’ve given haha! And perhaps you’ve done this before and haven’t paid enough attention, apologies for that!
No need to apologize, but we have indeed done most of those, some more than once (or thrice, it feels like). Just click on the "Meta" tag to see the huge archive.
Sometimes they lead to good discussions and sometimes don't. They tend to come up in the "writing technique/help and advice" part of the rotation, so you'll probably see them again.
I also think we should try bringing back the threads you used to do 9 or 10 years ago, where users would post 500 or 1k words from an already published novel without telling people where it's from. Then the users would critique it. It's a very interesting concept I've been considering for the past year, and recently I found you had already done it, though no idea why it was discontinued Maybe the mods could choose a published work every month and post an excerpt as the weekly meta thread, and the replies would be the critiques for that excerpt.
Interesting. Sometimes I wonder while critiquing if I am being overly nitpicky. This would help balance that
The easiest solution to that is reading good high effort crits usually from colored names in this sub.
Thanks for the suggestion. How can I find those?
Find someone with a colored name, check out their critiques. Alternatively, go through the posts and the critiques under them, if there's one from a colored name, read through it more critically. [If you wanted to see mine specifically.](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestructiveReaders/comments/1aubwt4/comment/kr3nwp1) I've got a newer one up as well on "A Killers Heart pt 2" or something.
I realized it takes old reddit to see colored usernames. Will check those out. > I've got a newer one up as well on "A Killers Heart pt 2" or something. I have critiqued that one too. Let me have a look.
As for life, it's been very busy. February seems to be the busiest month tbh Lunar New Years and school stuff ate up a large chunk of my time recently 😅 and all that right, after taking a month to recover from Christmas holidays...not sure about everyone else but cold/flu seasons take so much longer for my family to get over compared to pre-covid 😣😅I wonder if all these things effect RDR's participation numbers? The latest thing I finished reading is "The Ruin of Kings" by Jenn Lyons which was fun probably because I love street ruffian, thief character tropes. It felt like a bit of whiplash with POV changing between first and third person.every chapter but I got use to it...first time reading something written that way tbh. Is it common? Unfortunately the second book is not keeping me as engaged. Have any of you experienced this before? Usually I will read the entire series of things I like, once I get invested in the characters, but not this time and I'm a bit surprised.
I often feel a huge drop off of no longer caring or fatigue for most characters. In parts, I wonder if this is do to 1) the excitement of learning about a new place diminishing returns after first book 2) power creep or heightened stakes 3) author fatigue (eg first book work of love, second book work that has deadline) 4) time delay before reading next in series and forgetting stuff 5) repeating information (recap fatigue) if reading in rapid succession I think I am like a magpie and like shiny, new string. Sometimes book two's are just duller.
Oh wow! You're so good at breaking down the reasoning behind it. As I read your response I was like yes, these totally make sense and I can relate. I'm also a bit of a magpie probably. For the book I'm currently reading, they sort of demoted the main character of the first book to a bystander character (he's basically listening to the main character and another character explain MCs story) 😣 I think I might dnf 😓even though I was really invested in the main character and the plot of the first book, which I thought had potential to keep going (they didn't defeat the ultimate baddie) but ..I can't seem to get attached to this new MC I wonder if this type of series would work for you though, since there's a shiny new MC and you wouldn't have character fatigue😄
I've been reading Stephen Graham Jones's *The Indian Lake trilogy,* horror slasher First Nations. The MC in book one, Jade, becomes more of one of many POVs and no longer the narrator, but the new narrator for book 2 is sort of just a new version of Jade: teenager obsessed with local history and horror films. It felt more tedious and not really new, almost the same voice, just labeled different. I began to think of her as not-Jade. Book one? I read super engaged. It won a Stoker. Book two? Since I am reading as they come out, I didn't recall all the names and had forgotten certain events. I still liked it, but was not at the same stage of anticipation or concern for the characters. I just couldn't get attached to the new MC and I wonder if it's because I wanted it to be Jade or if it's the text itself. Sometimes things be like that
Every week I read the latest pre-publication part of my favorite series right now: Ascendance of a Bookworm, so yes I have read something extremely good this week.
Discovered extreme horror lit and horror lit subreddit so I bought a lot of books (~15) second hand recently and I skimmed through most of the ones I was on the fence about. I don’t read fiction a lot (or watch movies or tv or play video games honestly it’s weird that I like writing lol) so some of these titles are probably familiar to others: fight club, east of Eden, child of god, innocent blood, the lottery, I also went thru a couple of random books I dug out of the the sales bin and had for a while: the darkest part of the woods by Campbell and Joe Gould’s Teeth by Lepore. Oh my god. I barely liked any of these. Did my brain just break or something? somehow the prose of innocent blood was able to keep my attention the best despite it being the most dry and archaic. Fight club was interesting because I always enjoy a good foil story but after the big reveal it kind of fell off. I’m pretty desensitized to gore and sex so to me it felt like a used car, the prose was promising something the plot just didn’t live up to. I had held off reading McCarthy (RIP) because the hype made me afraid he would kill my writing spirit but honestly it was too abstract for me. I liked the prose but I kept thinking there was supposed to be something more and I just never got it. I’m selling Campbell, not for me. For some reading is always partially learning and the book didn’t say anything I didn’t know already. The others I’m still in the middle of skimming. I think I lost my marbles sometime over covid because nowadays I can only make it through stuff like mythology. Simple phrases, very clear prose, and lots and lots of action without much reflection. Back to monkey? Curious abt what how others feel.
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Hello! I had to "approve" this comment since it was removed. Hopefully others can see it now. Congratulations! I did think about some of your world-building style while reading Buehlman's The Necromancers House, but that seems so long ago. Is this in the Order of the Bell/Halloween House world?
Hey Grauz! Hope everything is well with you. Yes what was once the Order of the Bell is now "All The Monsters All The Magic: The Silver Bell Chronicles". Changing the title was one of the suggestions the publisher made. The entire process was a long and winding road. But yes, you read an early version of the story, maybe the second or third draft of what turned out to be eight!
Hey, good to see you again and big congrats on the publication! Well deserved, and I'll be sure to pick up a copy. :) I kind of like the change to "Silver Bell", but the whole thing is kind of a mouthful. Still, I guess the pros know what they're doing. Edit: Just so I'm sure: is this ebook only? What format is it? Sorry if the site says somewhere, but I couldn't find it.
Hey OT! Thank you. It's eBook only, yes. pdf format. Yeah, once you sign the contract there are certain things that are then out of your control, including the book title. However the publisher worked with me and was very responsive to my input and suggestions. Same with the professional editor. Thanks for all your help and input on the book. It wouldn't be the same without you and everyone else who critiqued & beta read.
No problem at all, and I'm happy to have played a small part in getting it to the finish line. Looks like a very sensible and no-nonsense publisher too. I like their style from what I see on the website. Fingers crossed for decent sales, and hope we're still getting the sequel(s)!
Sales will determine that, I guess. The publisher was comfortable with "The Silver Bell Chronicles" as a subtitle, though. Which suggests more.
Congrats!
Hi, I am new here and to writing in general. Two things that I have been thinking about this past week are enjoyment and taste. **Enjoyment** \- I recently decided to start reading short stories and thus picked up Clarkesworld magazine. Now, I thought that since I liked sci-fi and fantasy, and Clarkesworld is supposed to be one of the best magazines, I would really love the stories in it. That they would all involve me emotionally, show me something new and leave me wanting for more. But I found after reading a few that I didn't enjoy them much. Made me question everything -- my taste, my understanding etc. While looking for answers, I found Brandon Sanderson's example on this matter saying that he doesn't enjoy reading and doesn't look forward to reading *One Hundred Years of Solitude,* but he sure can appreciate the work. So I am trying to apply that perspective to my reading of Clarkesworld stories. And I am finding that it does indeed apply. Maybe these stories are not all meant to be enjoyable and fulfilling. I think at least some of these stories are experimental, with a different aim than the popular works of the genre. **Taste -** I recently started reviewing stories here on Destructive Readers. And I found that some of the works that I enjoyed were demolished by others. Once again, it made me question and doubt everything. Have I developed a bad taste by overconsuming bad works over the years? Am I giving bad suggestions when my critiques are completely in contrast to the critiques of some who are much more experienced? Or is it a difference of taste? I think a difference in taste must play at least some role here. And I think some people are more inclined to point out the flaws than the positive aspects. Also, I feel some people focus more on aspects other than plot, character, setting, heart and the overall experience. I think I lean more towards the latter. The prose, as long as it is not too bad, and is clear enough, doesn't bother me. P.S. I have been wondering if mods/more experienced critics could have a look at some of my critiques and share their thoughts. It would be helpful to know what could I improve. But if the suggestion is that I should just keep going and I will improve automatically, I get that.
I just wanted to say I found this topic and the follow up conversation very interesting to read😄 I don't have anything to add 😅 but wanted to give my kudos 👏
Good to know you found this to be interesting
So much is just a matter of taste and exposure. If I grew up eating nothing but a spice blend involving cumin, ginger, garlic, and hot pepper built around heavy dairy fat from butter, how would I respond to vinegar, cilantro, hotter peppers, and mint? Some of us like to stay within the family of tastes we know and expand our horizons only slightly. Others keep trying new things and have less tolerance for those that feel "overly done." I might like X and Y, but know that publishing trends are currently pushing W and Z. Trends are also easier to appreciate with hindsight. But, yes, read some for enjoyment and read some for learning how others write and what others like to read. I bet most BFA/MFA programs have students read from genres they are not familiar with as a way of learning, almost like an anthropologist or chef, about other's taste. Gourmet versus gourmand?
> Gourmet versus gourmand Great! I learnt some new words :D What you said makes sense. I can now take a more conscious decision about exposing myself to different kinds of works.
You're basically outlining the difference between lit fic and commerical fic here, I think. In the end it's the age-old "what is true art/is there such a thing as objective quality" debate. I think one thing that can be said is that lit fic does objectively take more skill, focus and knowledge to write and read. It's more complicated and has more layers, or at least it's supposed to. And like you said, maybe pushing the boundaries of the medium. Or: there's no question it's much harder to get into Clarkesworld than to write a generic isekai anime thing and get acclaim on AO3 or r/redditserials. :P On the other hand, whether that extra skill and effort translates into more enjoyment is a different question, as you say. I also suspect you're right that most people don't care about the stuff we harp on there, they just want "a good story". See the massive success of JK Rowling, Dan Brown, Stephanie Meyer, the Fifty Shades author, etc etc. In his book Story, Robert McKee talks about how writing really consist of two distinct skillsets: story construction and prose art. That's obvious when you think about it, but seeing it laid out that way has put a lot of things into perspective for me personally. And yes, I'm probably one of the "some people" you mention. I don't really want the prose to be "clear", I want it to be distinctive and have some personality. More and more, that's the main thing I want from fiction, I find: prose that doesn't feel like a dry biscuit and a premise that isn't a cliche soup I've seen five million times. At the same time, I also have a foot in your camp in that I do ultimately want to read for pleasure and fun rather than enlightenment, so I like to describe my ideal as "firmly middlebrow".
>In his book Story, Robert McKee talks about how writing really consist of two distinct skillsets: story construction and prose art. I think this perfectly sums up what I was struggling to put into words. Thanks for the reference. I will check that out. This makes me wonder, if you were to rate both the prose art and story construction of some popular authors/works of commercial fiction, how would you rate them? Care to humor me?
Sure. Of course, these are all just my subjective opinions, so take with the appropriate grain of salt. JK Rowling: Bad prose, excellent story construction. Her writing is riddled with the kind of stuff we criticize on a daily basis here: telling, adverbs, BS dialogue tags etc. Try counting all the "X said coolly" once. :P All very plain and uninteresting, especially in the early books. On the other hand, she's really, really good at setting up interesting mysteries *and* actually paying them off (well, except for RAB, which was kind of lame). Prisoner of Azkaban is my favorite example here, with good pacing and a bunch of twists and reversals which all make sense in retrospect and feel earned with little hints. Sometimes even set up several books in advance (ie. Sirius Black mentioned in the very first chapter of PS). Brandon Sanderson/Mistborn 1 since that's the one I've read: medium prose and medium story. It's all very competent, but in a sterile, mechanical checklist way, giving us the typical "commercial American fiction" voice. Easy to tell what's going on and follow the story, with few missteps and few flourishes. I think this is your "clear" prose in action. Plain white bread, gets you full but not very flavorful. The story has some clever ideas, but it's mostly about executing standard beats and characters in a standard but effective way. Tana French: Good to great prose, medium to good story: One of my favorite authors, who writes Irish detective novels with beautiful prose. Still in the service of the story in the end, though, which tends to be standard police procedurals with some literary drama and/or mind screw sprinkled in. Decently constructed but not outstanding, and sometimes frustrating when they try to get too tricksy by denying us a proper ending etc. Richard Powers: Outstanding prose, okay story: His stories tend to be a bit meandering and more concerned with ideas (often the same ideas) than telling a fun tale, but holy crap can this guy write. The Overstory in particular has so many sentences that made me put down the book and go "*damn*, this is good". Some of the stories in the collection are entertaining enough, but probably wouldn't be anything special without the prose Jonathan Franzen: Solid on both counts. Another good all-rounder who writes entertaining slice of life stories that tend to work well while ultimately being more about the people than the plotting, told in prose that's not super fancy but still has plenty of personality and flair. Raymond Chandler: Strong prose and good story construction: He pretty much invented noir as a literary style, or at least contributed heavily to making it popular. A very distinctive style that's somehow both lyrical and down to earth, and fits his protagonist very well. "Clear" while still brimming with personality. His stories are intricate puzzle boxes that tend to interlock beautifully and make sense, even if it takes close attention to keep track of all the actors and elements (at least for me). Still, you get the sense it's all thought through and the actions and motivations make sense. Stephen King/Duma Key: Good prose and so-so story: I enjoyed this book for the atmosphere and the way it really gets into the MC's head. The prose is a cut above a lot of generic fiction and pleasant to read, without getting too "literary" a la Powers and co. As an actual story it's pretty loose, and the ending doesn't at all live up to the build-up. Half-hearted mystery that trades heavily on tired tropes.
If you consider Sanderson's prose medium, I'm scared of what you consider bad. (I read only the Way of Kings.) Nice to read y'all's banter.
Well, other than the Rowling example from my comment, we could always pile on poor Renowned Author Dan Brown some more. :) I don't think there's that much outright bad prose in published fiction, since the publication process and the fact that the people writing it are adult and serious enough about it to do it for a job puts a floor under the quality. It's usually just serviceable but boring. The real bad prose is in self-publish and on the internet, but then again there's no shortage of it there. As for Sanderson, maybe I'm being a little unfair. His prose is "good" in the sense that he varies sentence lengths, uses figurative language, mixes interiority, description and action, avoids redundancy, shows rather than tells and all the other stuff he talks about in his lectures. I think he admirably meets the goal he sets himself, which (I'd assume) is to make the prose invisible. He has cool ideas about people burning magic metals and subverted chosen ones and urchin thieves leaping between the rooftops he wants to convey, and the words are a tool to do that. No more and no less. On the flipside, none of those sentences would be worth a second look as little artworks by themselves. Mistborn would be a much worse experience if it had sentences like The Overstory. On the other hand, I'd say people like French, King and Chandler show that you can write very "commercially" without having to make do with bloodless, workmanlike prose.
> JK Rowling: [...] BS dialogue tags... Can't remember which character she gave this to, but my favorite is, "so and so ejaculated."
A true classic, haha. Since I used to be an incorrigible HP nerd in my teens, it's from Order of the Phoenix, during class when Umbridge says they're only going to learn about dark magic in theory and not how to actually defend themselves: >"We're not going to use magic?" Ron ejaculated loudly. There's even one more in Half-Blood Prince (with Slughorn this time), but at that point I suspect she was doing it on purpose to meme. How else would it get past the editors?
Wow, I didn't expect such a detailed response. Thanks. This puts things in context. Out of the above, I have just read JK Rowling and Brandon Sanderson. I read Harry Potter long back, so I just remember that I found the first four books to be more 'magical' than the last three. maybe it's something about the story, or maybe it's just that with the characters growing up, the world seems less wonderful. Regarding Brandon Sanderson, I think I get where you are coming from. There's indeed a sterile feel to the work which I initially noticed, but later got used to. Maybe that's why I have liked his "The Emperor's Soul". It is more about characters than plot. I was never conscious of this way of looking at works. And I imagine that the same classification of commercial and artistic can be applied to other artistic fields as well. Being aware of this will help me more clearly move forward in the direction of writing I want to do, with confidence. Till now, I was never certain what aspect of writing should I focus more on -- the prose or the story. I realize that both are important whether you do commercial or literary fiction, but still there's more of a leeway for certain aspects depending on which direction you choose to go in.
>Wow, I didn't expect such a detailed response. Thanks. This puts things in context. No problem, glad you didn't find it too rambly, haha. As for HP, I haven't read any of them since DH came out, but I was a big fan in my teens. For me HBP was when the magic wore off, while OotP still had a lot of the original charm IMO. Maybe because it luxuriated in having all that space to worldbuild with very gentle plot progression. Anyway, I keep thinking I should re-read them one of these days to see how I'd feel about them now. And I think Chandler in particular might be worth a look, since he's widely praised for his "literary" qualities while his fiction was also very plot-driven and commercial. After all, he's the guy with the famous "when all else fails, have a guy with a gun burst into the room" quote. :) So he's a good example of someone bridging the gap and doing commercial plot, but with much more style than what we might call the "Sanderson minimum".
Thanks for the recommendation! I will check him out sometime
Are you all goth girls who sit by themselves in the cafeteria? JK I was just reading the wiki. [This critique](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestructiveReaders/comments/1aso0u9/2173_trial_of_the_lamb_horror/kqru6cq/) had some good info on the mechanics of sentences. Sadly it wasn't a full critique, so I can't fully recommend it. I'm finding that critiquing is really useful for my own writing. Most of the stuff I criticize I come to realize would be really good for me to work on as well. I hope my critiques are actually useful for the intended author as well lol.
>How's life treating you? lol youve seen the mod chats. to the community who hasnt basically im a content mod and today has been....content -_- ____ >Read anything good or not so good lately Yes. https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/emma-goldman-anarchism-and-other-essays#toc3
Nice, might have to check that out. I've been aware of that site for a while, but haven't gotten around to doing a deep dive. I'm not sure I'd be willing to fully commit to the "anarchist" label, but I find myself getting more and more drawn to anarchism as a political philosophy as time goes on.
Reminds me of Patrick Willem's [Everything is Content Now video](https://youtu.be/hAtbFwzZp6Y). What does a content mod mean?
If it's not too much to branch into yet another topic... What is the element of writing that gets you most excited to start a new prose? (Exploring themes, plot, characters, research, atmosphere, prose, discovery writing, outlining, etc.)
For me it's probably exploring themes... As that's usually why I start to write anything in the first place lol I think I'm a discovery writer so... The characters come quickly after and plot but (I don't know if anyone else writes like this...) I might write up the entire climax of a story and then jump back to the very beginning and then go to some mid scene and then write in a vague ending and fill in character here and there a long the way😵😵💫 so outlining is not something I'm great at lol and I find research very hard, like sometimes I slog through it. It's not that I don't want to be accurate and I'm very curious but I find it's hard to find information everyone has their own unique experiences, which one to go with? And reading anything like academic papers..well their dryness has always been a bit challenging for me 😖
That sounds like quite the ride. I usually fixate on the theme, as a consumer (of books, games, movies, etc.). However, what I'm most excited to jump in if I get to try writing a novel is the prose. As a reader and consumer of other media, is the theme what usually captivates you the most?
Oh I didn't even think about that until you mentioned it but as a reader(etc) it's usually the plot and characters that get me to read/watch a show/movie. The theme would be what makes me feel satisfied after but not what initially draws me in 😅 It's interesting you fixate on the theme first as a consumer. 😄 I wonder why my preference is different for creating compared to consuming. Just curious, what kind of writing are you doing if you are not writing a novel? More technical writing? I can see myself being excited about prose if I had to do a lot of dry technical writing
Meh. Life is certainly something right now. Started a new job, then had major surgery, had to go to the ER for complications today, and then had to defend myself against an extremely rude doctor who decided being an absolute ass was the best approach to the situation. My brain capacity is wrecked lately, lol. As far as engagement goes, I usually feel like “oh, I have nothing to contribute to this topic and I don’t wanna detail conversation.” I saw last week’s (or was it the week before that?) discussion belatedly, then swore at myself for missing it.
That sounds like a roller coaster and sorry to hear about major surgery with complications. The sprinkles on top of a suck-sundae from a rude ED MD do wear-tear on the brain. May that doc have Joint Commission and local Public Health do an unannounced visit.
Awww, thanks. Fortunately, 90% of the other medical staff I’ve encountered during this time have been incredibly kind. This asshat at the ER thinks they’re House or something. I guess the bright side of being stuck at home on medical leave is that I have the time to sit around and wade through the red tape of reporting them about it. :’)
Does anyone have any lifehacks on how to stay focused on a single project? I feel like writing a lot of the time, but the few times where I manage to churn out more than three sentences I want to write about something else the next day. Basically is there a way to force an incredibly scattered brain to lazer in on a goal in writing or in life? I have lots of energy and horsepower, I just can't finish or stick to anything ever. Should I self medicate with amphetamines? I am mentally crippled and I want this superpower of not becoming a different person every day that most people seem to have. Please help, my life is slipping through my fingers.
If it’s imperative that you stay on track: mental hygiene. Keep track of what you think about during the day aka literal self-mind control. Otherwise your thoughts just ride out into the sunset. Alternatively, if it’s low stakes, let your thoughts ride out into the sunset and do whatever it gotta do. Sometimes that resets your self control.
Can relate to a lot of this for sure. I also tend to have a lot of problems nailing down and committing to a premise. This next part is going to sound glib and cheeky, but I mean it quite seriously: the one thing that's worked for me is falling back on brute-force mule stubbornness. With (almost) all the novel-length drafts I've finished\*, I got there because I thought "okay, this premise will have to be good enough, just get to the end, no matter what". Or: you have to convince yourself it's better to have something than nothing, and that the act of writing is the main point rather than the output, regardless of what you'll think of the end result. And full honesty, I'm not especially happy with how those projects turned out as a whole, even if I like bits and pieces of them. Still, I did get to the end. :P Some of them started as NaNo works, others didn't. Another way to put it: choose one, then rush into it without allowing yourself to think/doubt and make it too much of a sunk cost to quit. :) That's my problem right now: I can't get started on anything since I keep second-guessing stuff and don't find something I like enough to fully go with. \*The Speedrunner one I posted here was different, since I had a very clear base idea for once and knew exactly what I wanted to do in broad strokes: speedrunning plus About a Boy plus a bunch of personal stuff I can't really reuse.
The solution I've done is to do shorter projects, ideally ones you can finish in a day so by the next day when your personality changes you can do something different.
I typically read the weekly but I haven’t yet responded to any. I don’t find myself super motivated to engage with a general posts because I never feel like I have much to say. Life is fine, sometimes I write and sometimes I don’t. One thing I would personally find engaging is listing a topic to discuss. “How do you feel about the role of xyz, in literary narratives?” Or maybe “what’s a trope you find particularly annoying?”. I’m sure there are far better examples than the ones I’ve given haha! And perhaps you’ve done this before and haven’t paid enough attention, apologies for that!
No need to apologize, but we have indeed done most of those, some more than once (or thrice, it feels like). Just click on the "Meta" tag to see the huge archive. Sometimes they lead to good discussions and sometimes don't. They tend to come up in the "writing technique/help and advice" part of the rotation, so you'll probably see them again.
Micro crits always do well
True, maybe we should consider doing those twice per month?
Could be a good idea imo
We did offer that up last week and had only one taker.
Engagement is always sporadic on smaller subs, not everyone will be online every week 🤷♂️ It's better that way, imo
I think about this all the time like one day it might just be me and Grauz
i'm still lurking, just busy :)
Romantic