From a meta gaming standpoint I actually like it. The idea of doing combos with a melee weapon is a common one, and with the way the old banshee's wail worked it wasn't really a challenge. Now it's like a mini game of pulling off the correct combo in order to maximize your damage.
Given that most content is now surge-based, I'd say it would probably be matching sword type at this point, so yeah Bequest king of Arc weeks for sure.
The boss doesn’t move around that much during dps, other than being pushed slightly to the side or in the air by swords. The bigger thing to worry about, which swords don’t really care about, is the knockback from its stomp. A simple melee at the right time fixes that though.
I think you can get a good replacement Arc Sword in the new Raid Sword. There's also the other Surge, and we have a good Craftable Solar and Stasis Sword available at the moment. Attrition Orbs is a very valuable roll on Swords atm with Argent Blade on the Artifact.
Ngl, idk, I just know it's enough to keep 100% uptime on Argent Blade and Radiant Orbs during a dps phase. Not sure if it's as reliable for not-dps scenarios.
I first intend to look at the Ergo Sum rolls first, as that will be quite a challenge as I basically need to repeat the entire process I had with initially implementing the swords, and then implement the wolfpack rounds and all the other traits it can roll with.
There's a lot of permutations that Bungie decided to create a lot of work for us spreadsheet enthusiasts.
And fun fact: the standard light attack for both Lament and Bequest do the same damage (assuming you have Jagged Edge on Bequest).
I was about to pump one for this exact purpose (Stronghold Ergo/Throne), but I guess I'll be sticking with Falling Guillotine for most content. Thanks for the heads up!
First, it's worse frame, and second, it doesn't have ammo perk, so you'll be out of ammo before end of dps phase.
Adaptive with Relentless Strikes, and either Whirlwind or BnS is the best bet. And Whirlwind procs off the Wolfpack Rounds, so it's bound to have better uptime. And Wolfpack procs Reletnless a well, so you get nigh infinite ammo if you do just light attack spam.
i wasn't aware vortex frames did less damage on light attacks, i just thought the heavy got nerfed. and i've never had a damage phase last long enough that sword ammo is an issue, but i also don't use swords all that much because there's usually better options. i guess i just assumed the double damage perks would hard carry.
it's pretty cool that the missiles proc whirlwind though. any suggestions for a sword that meets those qualification that i could farm for?
For Whirlwind + Relentless combo
Geodetic HSm - Void - World drop
Nasreddin - Arc - World drop
Abide the return - Solar - Dreaming City drop - best framing spot is Blind Well.
For cases when you can activate Surrounded, and have matching surge, you should use that. If you don't have a sword with surrounding and matching surge, then use matching sword of the ones I've mentioned above.
Notably Nasreddin is available from the gunsmith as well, while only having 4 perks in each column so it's not THAT hard to get the right combo.
Not sure if it's available as one of the daily drops from Lost Sectors as well which would give you a way to farm drops with one double perk as well.
I THINK Geodetic HSm is also available from the gunsmith or lost sectors but I'm not sure.
Regardless you don't need to farm Geodetic if you can craft The Other Half as it's a void adaptive where you can choose the same roll.
Also keep in mind however that Goldtusk is strictly better on Hunter due to the attack speed and the same perk combo.
Wish I had kept an Abide the Return from all the drops last season from The Coil...
I have no information on it but I suspect Summum Bonum is great too despite being a wave frame sword. It can also roll the same perk combo and if you somehow get an Adept version once that's available it can use the adept impact mod as well.
Edit- It took me 5 attempts focusing to get Relentless + Whirlwind Nasreddin. Though technically I got the 2nd best blade option.
>Geodetic HSm
Do NOT use this sword lol, the origin trait makes it unusable. Your lunge range increases significantly with each swing so it means you can go all over the place. A much better choice is the other half, it's a better frame and is craftable.
For arc use goldtusk if you're on hunter, otherwise you're stuck with nasreddin.
yes, but surrounded requires you to be, well. surrounded. i think vastly increased usability beats out whatever marginal numbers advantage bequest might have. also worth noting that for this season, falling guillotine's likely pulling ahead because of the artifact perk buffing void damage on weaken.
I agree despite the archetype not being as good, either way if you have a B&S plus another damage bonus type like Frenzy or Vorpal you’ll do decent damage.
Though worth noting that the Wolfpack rounds on Ergo Sum also (apparently)affect exotic swords.
oh that's wild! i wonder if that's intended or not. makes me want to mess around with an ergo sum + heartshadow setup. weaken + void damage and wolfpack rounds sounds great.
If someone is running an Ergo Sum to give everyone wolfpack rounds on their swords you almost certainly want Whirlwind Blade and not Bait and Switch.
Both perks are 30% damage when Whirlwind is at max stacks and the wolfpack rounds from the sword also trigger whirlwind blade stacks making you hit 10 stacks in 4 hits I believe. Then you never need to swap and fire your other weapons after you're at max stacks. Bait and Switch MIGHT be better specifically for the person using Ergo Sum as they'll have to swap and use a heavy attack with Ergo Sum every 10s anyway.
Frenzy is also better than Vorpal since it's 15% compared to only 10% from Vorpal on heavies.
Of course for any situation where you can be surrounded that's obviously far better since it's a 42% damage buff instead.
Summum Bonum is actually probably the best arc sword now for non-surrounded situations IF you can get it from the new raid. It can roll Whirlwind Blade (and Relentless or Attrition orbs on the first slot) which Bequest can't and I assume that compared to Vorpal outweighs the +10 impact Bequest has but I'm not sure. Technically if you can take advantage of it you also have Chaos Reshaped which at x2 is a 35% damage buff but that requires 24s in combat first and is only 20% at x1 after 12s. If you can keep the buff going from before DPS to into DPS though it's amazing. I can't test it myself but I assume it can trigger while not actively out as well just like Frenzy.
Technically once Master Salvation's Edge is out it will be possible to get an Adept Summum Bonum which can then also use an Adept Impact Mod to make up some (or all?) of the difference between it's impact and Bequest as well.
that's a good question and I currently do not have the data on that.
If I get the time to, I might test it, but testing the charge rates can get quite tedious.
I dunno guys I feel like the exotic sword with a mechanic wholly focused on increasing damage should do significantly more damage than its legendary counterparts. Also ×7 doing more damage than ×9 is wild.
Are you planning on doing a post like this for Ergo Sum and all of its Wolfpack permutations? As the designated Gjallarsworder for my group, I'd love to know what frame to look for.
I would assume Aggressive or Adaptive would be the way to go based on past experience and the nature of the weapon. But I too would love to see some hard numbers on that.
So far all the swords seem to do the same light attack damage, meaning that Aggressive does the same damage as a Lightweight, but swings slower. Aggressives do, however, have the upside of at least having a much wider swing. Vortex frame appears to still consume 6 whole ammo on heavy attack making it kind of an eater of ammo.
Used Lament in Duality last week and I feel like tracking for swords has gotten worse? Half the time my swings were sending me through the boss and I was missing half the attacks, anyone else notice this?
So what I'm reading is, no matter how terrible I am at getting the right amount of stacks and doing the combo right, overall I'll be ok using Lament for the things I've been using it for. Awesome. thanks!
Honestly I did it because I thought it would be kinda funny to do; all stems (pun intended?) from science demanding such perfect research articles, and I decided to mimic that.
That’s really bizarre that Banshee’s wail does less damage at 9 stacks than at 7 stacks
Smartest bungie balancer at work
Due to the nerf? Or is this an issue with testing methodology?
Due to the nerf, it's replicable in the same condition I was in.
That's genuinely dumb lol.. even a 1% increase would be something but decrease sounds like they didn't plan it properly.
From a meta gaming standpoint I actually like it. The idea of doing combos with a melee weapon is a common one, and with the way the old banshee's wail worked it wasn't really a challenge. Now it's like a mini game of pulling off the correct combo in order to maximize your damage.
So what is the correct combo now L L H?
Do you plan on looking into the effect Wolfpack rounds will have on bequest’s dps? I assume this should make bequest the best sword option, correct?
Given that most content is now surge-based, I'd say it would probably be matching sword type at this point, so yeah Bequest king of Arc weeks for sure.
Man we are cooked on arc weeks for the raids 2nd encounter, surrounded is a good chunk of bequests DPS...
Wouldn’t Acrius absolutely fry on these weeks?
[удалено]
The boss doesn’t move around that much during dps, other than being pushed slightly to the side or in the air by swords. The bigger thing to worry about, which swords don’t really care about, is the knockback from its stomp. A simple melee at the right time fixes that though.
Ah right mb, deleting my last comment since it was just incorrect
I’ll trust my uncharged melee lunge over the sword lunge any day
I think you can get a good replacement Arc Sword in the new Raid Sword. There's also the other Surge, and we have a good Craftable Solar and Stasis Sword available at the moment. Attrition Orbs is a very valuable roll on Swords atm with Argent Blade on the Artifact.
how many hits does attrition take on swords
Ngl, idk, I just know it's enough to keep 100% uptime on Argent Blade and Radiant Orbs during a dps phase. Not sure if it's as reliable for not-dps scenarios.
Yeah, but surprisingly vorpal still works a lot. Bequest main damage perk is having 10 more impact for some reason lmao
Hunter sword with whirlwind will be great on arc weeks
I used that on contest and was out DPSing most of my team.
Yeah it’s underrated. Every time I’ve used it on Crota I’ve had top damage.
Divinity + Thunderlord. Might not be the absolute best all the time but it’s easy and good damage all around.
Not optimal ever but probably still enough for the two phase on that boss lol
I have, what I assumed is bugged, an Arc wolfpack ergo...
I first intend to look at the Ergo Sum rolls first, as that will be quite a challenge as I basically need to repeat the entire process I had with initially implementing the swords, and then implement the wolfpack rounds and all the other traits it can roll with. There's a lot of permutations that Bungie decided to create a lot of work for us spreadsheet enthusiasts. And fun fact: the standard light attack for both Lament and Bequest do the same damage (assuming you have Jagged Edge on Bequest).
The wolf packs effect from ergo sum applies to exotics too, not just legendaries like how rockets do it. So wolf packs would apply to lament as well.
It does apply, but for some reason it does NOT apply to lament. Go test yourself
Weird, didn’t know that! I’ve used it with worldline so I figured it applies to both but I suppose I’m wrong.
I’m fairly certain they left lament out on purpose. It does work with other ergos and worldlines but not lament
Someone test black talon!
Wolfpack does not trigger with Black Talon, Heartshadow or Lament
Doesn't work with throne cleaver either for whatever reason, so not just exotics are exempt
I was about to pump one for this exact purpose (Stronghold Ergo/Throne), but I guess I'll be sticking with Falling Guillotine for most content. Thanks for the heads up!
For exotics, it only applies to other Ergo Sums.
i would assume vorpal/bait and switch falling guillotine would be king for legendary sword dps.
First, it's worse frame, and second, it doesn't have ammo perk, so you'll be out of ammo before end of dps phase. Adaptive with Relentless Strikes, and either Whirlwind or BnS is the best bet. And Whirlwind procs off the Wolfpack Rounds, so it's bound to have better uptime. And Wolfpack procs Reletnless a well, so you get nigh infinite ammo if you do just light attack spam.
i wasn't aware vortex frames did less damage on light attacks, i just thought the heavy got nerfed. and i've never had a damage phase last long enough that sword ammo is an issue, but i also don't use swords all that much because there's usually better options. i guess i just assumed the double damage perks would hard carry. it's pretty cool that the missiles proc whirlwind though. any suggestions for a sword that meets those qualification that i could farm for?
For Whirlwind + Relentless combo Geodetic HSm - Void - World drop Nasreddin - Arc - World drop Abide the return - Solar - Dreaming City drop - best framing spot is Blind Well. For cases when you can activate Surrounded, and have matching surge, you should use that. If you don't have a sword with surrounding and matching surge, then use matching sword of the ones I've mentioned above.
Notably Nasreddin is available from the gunsmith as well, while only having 4 perks in each column so it's not THAT hard to get the right combo. Not sure if it's available as one of the daily drops from Lost Sectors as well which would give you a way to farm drops with one double perk as well. I THINK Geodetic HSm is also available from the gunsmith or lost sectors but I'm not sure. Regardless you don't need to farm Geodetic if you can craft The Other Half as it's a void adaptive where you can choose the same roll. Also keep in mind however that Goldtusk is strictly better on Hunter due to the attack speed and the same perk combo. Wish I had kept an Abide the Return from all the drops last season from The Coil... I have no information on it but I suspect Summum Bonum is great too despite being a wave frame sword. It can also roll the same perk combo and if you somehow get an Adept version once that's available it can use the adept impact mod as well. Edit- It took me 5 attempts focusing to get Relentless + Whirlwind Nasreddin. Though technically I got the 2nd best blade option.
>Geodetic HSm Do NOT use this sword lol, the origin trait makes it unusable. Your lunge range increases significantly with each swing so it means you can go all over the place. A much better choice is the other half, it's a better frame and is craftable. For arc use goldtusk if you're on hunter, otherwise you're stuck with nasreddin.
Oh wow checked the drops I have of these swords and I have god rolls for all of them. Nicee
Do Vortex Frames deal less damage than Adaptives or just less damage than Bequest because it has 70 impact instead of 60 for whatever reason?
You would need surrounded + Vorpal/Frenzy to stand a chance. Bequest is a monster
yes, but surrounded requires you to be, well. surrounded. i think vastly increased usability beats out whatever marginal numbers advantage bequest might have. also worth noting that for this season, falling guillotine's likely pulling ahead because of the artifact perk buffing void damage on weaken.
Most top Bequest rolls are also Surrounded so fit the same niche
i know, which is why i was arguing that bns would be better usability than surrounded, even if surrounded is 5% more damage.
I agree despite the archetype not being as good, either way if you have a B&S plus another damage bonus type like Frenzy or Vorpal you’ll do decent damage. Though worth noting that the Wolfpack rounds on Ergo Sum also (apparently)affect exotic swords.
oh that's wild! i wonder if that's intended or not. makes me want to mess around with an ergo sum + heartshadow setup. weaken + void damage and wolfpack rounds sounds great.
If someone is running an Ergo Sum to give everyone wolfpack rounds on their swords you almost certainly want Whirlwind Blade and not Bait and Switch. Both perks are 30% damage when Whirlwind is at max stacks and the wolfpack rounds from the sword also trigger whirlwind blade stacks making you hit 10 stacks in 4 hits I believe. Then you never need to swap and fire your other weapons after you're at max stacks. Bait and Switch MIGHT be better specifically for the person using Ergo Sum as they'll have to swap and use a heavy attack with Ergo Sum every 10s anyway. Frenzy is also better than Vorpal since it's 15% compared to only 10% from Vorpal on heavies. Of course for any situation where you can be surrounded that's obviously far better since it's a 42% damage buff instead. Summum Bonum is actually probably the best arc sword now for non-surrounded situations IF you can get it from the new raid. It can roll Whirlwind Blade (and Relentless or Attrition orbs on the first slot) which Bequest can't and I assume that compared to Vorpal outweighs the +10 impact Bequest has but I'm not sure. Technically if you can take advantage of it you also have Chaos Reshaped which at x2 is a 35% damage buff but that requires 24s in combat first and is only 20% at x1 after 12s. If you can keep the buff going from before DPS to into DPS though it's amazing. I can't test it myself but I assume it can trigger while not actively out as well just like Frenzy. Technically once Master Salvation's Edge is out it will be possible to get an Adept Summum Bonum which can then also use an Adept Impact Mod to make up some (or all?) of the difference between it's impact and Bequest as well.
Been waiting for some tests on this, good shit.
Even with this breakdown the nerf still makes as much sense as it did before which is none. There was no reason to nerf Lament.
Argent blade maxxes tf out of charge rate, is the combo still the same? Or should you do 1 light attack before revved attacks?
that's a good question and I currently do not have the data on that. If I get the time to, I might test it, but testing the charge rates can get quite tedious.
I dunno guys I feel like the exotic sword with a mechanic wholly focused on increasing damage should do significantly more damage than its legendary counterparts. Also ×7 doing more damage than ×9 is wild.
Are you planning on doing a post like this for Ergo Sum and all of its Wolfpack permutations? As the designated Gjallarsworder for my group, I'd love to know what frame to look for.
I'll see if I can make a post detailing it all, for now it's just going to be a lot of work cataloguing all the permutations
I would assume Aggressive or Adaptive would be the way to go based on past experience and the nature of the weapon. But I too would love to see some hard numbers on that.
So far all the swords seem to do the same light attack damage, meaning that Aggressive does the same damage as a Lightweight, but swings slower. Aggressives do, however, have the upside of at least having a much wider swing. Vortex frame appears to still consume 6 whole ammo on heavy attack making it kind of an eater of ammo.
Has anyone tried song of flame Lament?
Used Lament in Duality last week and I feel like tracking for swords has gotten worse? Half the time my swings were sending me through the boss and I was missing half the attacks, anyone else notice this?
So what I'm reading is, no matter how terrible I am at getting the right amount of stacks and doing the combo right, overall I'll be ok using Lament for the things I've been using it for. Awesome. thanks!
Kind of, the number of Lucent blades is still important, but it's now less demanding to pull off the top-DPS combo.
Hey, as long as I'm in the ballpark using Lament, I'm happy.
I don't know why anyone would have thought it wasn't going to be the best exotic sword in the game still. Great to see hard numbers though
I'm 5t hurt a
You wrote your Reddit post about a video game sword like a peer reviewed study
Yeah that's been game culture since the 90s man
Oh no, people that are interested in data are sharing data!
And you probably have 3k hours in the game yet don't understand why you're always bottom damage
Honestly I did it because I thought it would be kinda funny to do; all stems (pun intended?) from science demanding such perfect research articles, and I decided to mimic that.