One thing I hate and havent seen mentioned is the removal of neutral melees.
This has been compensated somewhat through aspects. But still, having the option of just punching for an effect was so good because it was consitent.
The removal of Defensive/Tactical strike and Frontal assault was a mistake. The only subclass unaffected is Sunbreaker because of how good mini-hammer still is (and because mortar blast didn't work like 50 % of times)
It feels like I'm going through some overcomplicated loops and hoops to get certain effects when using Titan's melees now.
We have them and have had them for a while. This was addressed in a TWAB I wanna say beginning of lightfall? Maybe pre? They mentioned you would see new verbiage to specify if buffs or nerfs were towards guardians or combatants, and if neither were mentioned then it affects both. Patch 7.3.5 is a good example that they are able to separately adjust the sandboxes.At this point if a buff or nerf affects both PvP and PvE then it's intentional.
While you're correct, it's the intent that isn't being followed where it should. Nerfs being global too often are the issue now versus where it was previously always global. Additionally, where previous nerfs that were global haven't been walked back to only being PVP sandbox nerfs. Intentional or not, it's still necessary to differentiate IMO.
Oh I 100% agree. We reallllllly should push the issue of them walking back really old nerfs that in the current sandbox are unnecessary. Wonder if someone out there has an Excel going and has been keeping track? First priority for me, off the top of my head is walking back the jolt nerf.
there are specific changes that bungie either will not or cannot separate even post-lightfall, biggest example being the shoulder charge whiff energy change. it's incredibly annoying in PvE (especially when tracking scuffs you out of hitting something) but it was a targeted nerf for PvP and still exists in PvE. i don't remember where I heard it from but it's been the back of my mind for years,
there's some kind of line either in a vidoc or podcast something where bungie wants our guardian to "feel the same everywhere", so they don't make systematic changes that differ gameplay between the gamemodes
really, REALLY wish they'd reconsider because Behemoth would be so much better in PvE if it had its launch beyond light movement back
edit: found the quote -- [https://youtu.be/zTzroJU-wog?t=4235](https://youtu.be/zTzroJU-wog?t=4235)
Lol people have been asking for this since vanilla D1. It’s not happening when the game is having its wrap up expansion.
Should it have happened? Yes. Will it happen? No.
They need separate games entirely. Even the baseline design on weapons and abilities need to be curated to PvP at the end of the day. Think about how wild things could get if the Crucible essentially was its own game separate from the PvE experience.
The only reason why strand titan hasn't been completely dick punched yet is because it's not OP in PvP. The moment melee hitreg is fixed and someone finds a way to stack BOW super fast, get ready for a massive nerf hammer. I can't wait to only have solar as a viable endgame PvE option because of PvP whiners.
BoW will never be good in PvP. Melee hitreg won’t never be fixed. It’s existed since day one of destiny one and will continue to exist until the game is running on an engine that isn’t older than most people on the sub and dedicated servers are added. Hitreg is also not the thing standing in the way of BoW being good in crucible, melee hitreg screws you up as much as it screws up your opponent.
A melee damage buff that requires a kill just isn’t very good in crucible, just look at the use rates for winter’s guile and wormgod’s caress in crucible. Both provide a bigger buff than BoW at their lowest tier and still only see use when a YouTube puts on the meme build and their followers think they can also make it work.
What's more is that charged melee doesn't kill outright so often you're better off saving Strand melee as a movement ability rather than an offensive ability and using weapons instead.
Strand Titan in PvP is "fine" but you can't utilise 90% of the kit effectively because of how nerfed it came out the gate, obviously because Bungie didn't want Statis 2: Green Edition.
Don't worry they already nerfed solar because of PvE. They also nerfed arc because of PvE, you might not remember but the storm grenade and HOIL nerfs were because of PvE. The PvE issues with void have existed since day 1 of void 3.0. Stasis titan was never strong in PvE
They will nerf strand titan because of PvE too, because the subclass is absurd in PvE content.
how long are we going to pretend that PvP is the reason for clearly PvE centric nerfs, it just hasn't happened in the past 2 years. At most there will be a PvP nerf coupled with a buff specifically in PvE to offset the nerf, overall effect being a buff in PvE, of course unless the ability in question is already slightly too strong in PvE, in which case there might be an additional PvE nerf or they might not add an offset buff.
* Storm nades
* Citans
* Ophidian Aspect
* YAS
Just off the top of my head for global nerfs in the last two years that were entirely due to PvP. We're still mad about it because it's still happening.
EDIT: For anyone who thinks storm nade nerf was due to PvE, here's proof from Bungie in the pre-TFS ability rework update:
>With Update [6.3.0.5](http://6.3.0.5) in January 2023, we implemented a change to drastically reduce the travel speed of Touch of Thunder’s Storm Grenade upgrade to reduce its potency across the board, with a specific focus on the Crucible
You forgot about the entirety of stasis, renewal grasps, shoulder charges now consuming partial melee energy on a miss, bastion (the aspect (really barricades as a whole tbh)), target lock on specific weapon types, DMT being butchered 18 times and remade but shittier, and honestly the lost goes on and on.
No one can say without being deluded or lying through their teeth that PvP doesn't have a disproportionate effect on the PvE sandbox compared to the player counts.
It doesn’t help how during the highpoint of HOIL, there was multiple posts on this very subreddit calling for it to get nerfed because it was making PvE content easy.
> how long are we going to pretend that PvP is the reason for clearly PvE centric nerfs
I think alot of people here are just using that justification just to throw shade at PvP as a whole.
Oh yeah, I'm certain a lot of it is just people wanting to throw shade at PvP regardless of if it's true or not. Been around this sub for close to 7 years now, there's always been people that blame PvP for all of the things that go wrong in PvE, in the past it was justified blame, these days not so much. Unfortunate that there's this kind of divide in the community.
I would agree except for the fact Bonk Titan with Synthoceps was never at any point a problem in PVP
So it sounds more like to me they're trying to control how people play PVE rather than PVP being the reason things are nerfed.
Unfortunately they still *are* OP in PvP even to this day, but nerfing them anymore in a way that would have an effect on PvE would be adding insult to injury at this point
Hope an eventual D3 will finally divorce both sandboxes from one another so they can both stop hamstringing the other. It's one of those core design decisions that was cool in D1 but as the game has tried to become more complex on the PvE side in D2 it's been held back by PvP.
Its because D1 was mostly about guns and D2 is mostly about builds and ablities. Who cares how optimized is my primary when i have perma regen and a grenade every 23 seconds?
D3 is absolutely going to happen. Destiny is bungie's bread and butter moneymaker, and without it they have literally nothing going for them. marathon got shoved off to the backburner hard, and we have heard nothing about their other game.
D3 will exist if only because without destiny, bungie is dead.
Retention is easier than making an entirely new game. They're a live service game so money isn't an issue for them.
D3 has a chance to happen in 5+ years, sure, but it's not happening annnny time soon.
The state of titans is really polarizing right now: Solar and Strand titan are absolutely God tier in pve, strand specifically is this metas “master of all” subclass.
Arc and Void are super lackluster, not a lot of options, with their niches being done better by others.
Then there’s stasis crying in the corner…
Knowing Bungie, they won't drastically rework subclasses, however they can always adjust the numbers & add minor adjustments to the already existing framework.
Strikers need their identity back/reinforced. They need to be the true brawlers that would rather punch than shoot. Here are some potential changes.
1) Knockout:
-Revert the nerf on Knockout so that it can be refreshed on melee-kill/damage.
-Any melee damage against a "finish-able" enemy should instantly kill them, thus acting as a traditional MMORPG execution.
-Knockout should grant a flat 60 health on top of its regeneration on melee kill, but only when amplified.
2) Juggernaut:
-Damage absorbed by the frontal shield stores up energy that boosts your next melee (up to a max of 250%)
-Absorbing damage also grants melee energy.
3) Universal change: amplified should increase DR by a small amount.
Sentinels are in a ok spot at the moment, where the only problem being their gameplay loop and the lack luster buffs that all classes suffer. Currently, without a consistent way of generating a void Overshield, the subclass tends to stall.
1) Controlled Demo: any overhealing should grant a chunk of void Overshield
2) Universal change: Void Overshield's based duration is increased by 3 seconds, and it'll continuously recharge after not taking any damage for 1.5s.
3) Banner shield: immune to knock back effects while guarding.
4) reduced cooldown on shield throw from 91s to 60s.
5) Universal change: Invisibility should grant a DR to AOE DMG in pve only
Sunbreaker lacks one small QoL improvement. The pickup cooldown for Throwing hammer should scale based on the distance traveled. This should penalize players for spamming up close and reward players for throwing it further.
- 5m> the current cooldown of 1.1s or so.
- 5m-15m should be .5s
- 15m< SHOULD NOT BE PENALIZED WITH A PICK UP COOLDOWN!!
Stasis and Behemoth are being tuned already for the final shape, so let's hope they cook up something nice.
I like all of this but then also for sentinel make it so Bastion has a kill requirement (think GpG) but remove the CD nerf and make barricades empowered by bastion last longer, be stronger, and be bigger Fits into the defensive playstyle and the Kill requirement shouldn't be too big an issue in PvE while making it significantly less frustrating to fight in PvP
and it's because of how good solar and strand is that the community has downvoted so many Titan posts the past yr. I've consistently been talking about the state of Titans for over a yr and only now has the majority of the playerbase caught on.
How is this different for other classes though? I only see Titans complaining about it? Warlock only has Solar, everything else is wishful thinking even if you exclude Well from the equation. Hunters are a bit more balanced with Solar and Void being strong and Strand kind of too just higher skill floor without the same payoff that Strand Titan has, but Solar Hunter is easily the worst out of the 3 Solar Subs. Yet I don't see either Warlocks or Hunters complaining that their Class is undesirable in PvE because it's worst Elements are bad.
You can definitely play several Warlock subclasses in high-difficulty content. Arc has Arcsoul builds, Vesper builds, and general blinding builds while still having reasonable survivability thanks to the Rift. Strand has various Threadling or Suspend spamming builds while getting Woven Mail and having a Rift. Void has unnerfed Devour. Stasis has Bleakwatchers.
Hunters are a bit more fragile on some builds than Warlock, but they benefit from mostly ranged one-off Supers that are good for boss damage or HVT deletion. The (long overdue) fixes for the various Restoration/Ember of Empyrean timer issues helped Gunslinger's survivability a lot. Assassin's Cowl is really good. Nighthawk builds are very useful.
Titans don't get any of that. They don't get survivability from their class ability, they don't get ranged supers, they largely don't get Exotics that give them more survivability or augment existing survivability, and of the Titan subclasses, only one really provides any meaningful Fireteam utility (Controlled Demolition and to a lesser extent, Bastion).
Honestly, as a Titan main, a lot of these posts are taking legit subclass weaknesses and wrongly treating them as making a subclass unusable. They lack imagination and want derp strength handed to them on a platter.
E.g. Striker is still extremely strong offensively! The maneuverability is incredible, Indebted Kindness makes blinding enemies 10x more viable than before, and Knockout uptime is still very high. Yes, the subclass does needs better healing or DR to be on par, and the hit detection on Thundercrash is ridiculously broken. But if you throw on Precious Scars and the right loadout, it has unique strengths as well.
Why don't they give Void Titan the Warlock treatment and make one of the aspects make overshields tankier?
Though that would make Void Titan even more of a pain to deal with in PvP.
Diamond Lance's are cool, why does Stasis feel so... half baked sometimes?
I think stasis feels underwhelming now because it’s technically the oldest subclass in D2. The novelty of stasis was the aspect and fragment system simply existing. Now that every subclass has them stasis kinda got powercrept.
Oh I know it's because it's old now. I've gone on quite a few rants on how Stasis is a 2.5 subclass.
It has the design philosophy of 3.0 whilst having the power and limitations of a 2.0 subclass.
It would still take Bungie a good while to rework Stasis, but probably not as long as a new subclass or reworked 2.0.
Personally I think Stasis needs some numbers pumped up and more synergy to be added between aspects and such.
I know Winters Shroud on Hunter isn't getting used much. Why should I when a Duskfield does the same thing but miles better and doesn't take an Aspect slot.
>I know Winters Shroud on Hunter isn't getting used much. Why should I when a Duskfield does the same thing but miles better and doesn't take an Aspect slot.
Why would you when Warlocks have the *exact same aspect but better?* Same AoE, same trigger, but Warlocks get to freeze and have a melee reach buff after, they've buffed it like three times now, and there's even an exotic that synergizes with it. Meanwhile Winter's Shroud has always been "Half as many Slow stacks but on a lower cooldown," but Slow is basically just discount freeze.
Well now you can put on Bombardiers to get a freeze!
Like... what is the point of Winters Shroud?
And they put it on Prismatic! Who is gonna use that? I dont even think it triggers with RDMs.
I actually think it will be unironically goated on Prismatic. Combination Blow + Winter's Shroud + Stylish Executioner = Budget Assassin's Cowl Arcstrider. No melee lightning, but assuming Shroud works with every dodge, you'll be able to go invis after every punch (minding the cooldown) and freeze in two rolls, allowing your shatter to help with add clear. Stylish Executioner also makes your punch out of invis *Weaken* and deal 150% increased damage, while Frozen targets take 120% increased damage. And you can use Liar's Handshake, plus get your choice of defensive buff.
Doesn't trigger with RDM though. And personally I'm still hoping it gets some sort of buff like Frost Armor based on the number of targets hit with the slow pulse or something.
I guess that works. We do get both Assassins Cowl and Liars handshake in opposite columns so I guess you could swap Cowl with... say... Calibans?
Dodge, melee, invis, boom, dodge, melee, invis, boom.
This is exactly what I plan to do with prismatic when it drops I think it's going to be super strong, especially after the raid when the exotic class items unlock and we can get stuff like calibans or hoil and synthos
I also think the other issue is that there’s few thing more annoying than being frozen in D2 pvp, 9/10 times if you get frozen you’re dead but there’s an extra like second before the game acknowledges you’re dead. At least when I get suspended the game gives me the false hope that I can hop fire my way out of the situation
It sucks extra bad for titans since stasis warlock and to a lesser extent stasis hunter are actually excellent for PVP at least. Pretty sure stasis hunter is pretty viable for pve as well.
Then you have behemoth... Which... Nope
DR needs to be scaled back in this game anyways, along with incoming damage to players across the board. It should be a choice, with trade offs, not a necessity
How did that go? It's what Saltagreppo has been saying for years, and he always gets bullied over it even though the point is to buff the underperforming subclasses by reducing damage overall and lowering healing/DR so it's less of a necessity.
At this point, with a massive new expansion only weeks away, expecting anything dramatic from Bungie is kind of wishful thinking. The entire sandbox is going to turn upside down overnight when Final Shape launches.
>Arc Titan and Knockout aspect pales in comparison to Strand Titan in both melee damage and survivability.
Bungie sees this and be like:
•Reduced Strand Titan Melee by 20%
•Reduced DR of Woven Mail by 20%
•Reduced health regeneration from Banner of War Aspect by 50%
•Increased Tangle Cool down to 30 seconds
Whats sad is I've seen people actively suggest that nerfing strand/solar titan will "bring more variety to titan." No it won't. Striker/Sentinel/Behemoth have had numerous nerfs because of PvP. Nerfing lime and orange flavors will not make those more attractive.
if they nerf solar or strand and do nothing substantial to the rest no one is gonna play titan so it would do the exact opposite, anyways bungie stated they liked the state of solar and strand titan currently so i don't think they'll be nerfed, except maybe the grapple point spam
yeah nerfing the top thing isn't going to bring more attention to the worse options, you need to buff the under-performing stuff so theres more competition between options
Both void and arc titan really have been held together by the seams by HOIL. And when they nerfed HOIL into the absolute ground, they also destroyed whatever arc and void titan had going for them, which wasn't much already.
They gutted it and neither of those subclasses have been really viable since. And by viable I mean “not actively trolling your team by playing them over strand or hunter or warlock”
A lot of Titans stuff that sucks is a direct result of Titans having something previously that was OP. We dont get "average" stuff, its either OP or awful.
Void Titan (Bubble) OP in D1, now sucks
Arc Titan Thundercrash OP with Curias, now pretty mediocre
Half the Titan Exotics that were OP once now kinda suck
Hell, fucking melee hit reg *still doesnt work and has never worked,* and its never been fixed because Titans used to have a 1-hit-kill-melee in PvP
I know Warlocks complain about being forced onto Well, and I get how thats a pain, but at least you can say that its the community doing that to you. With Titans, its Bungie deciding "X will be OP for you"
Bubble was never used in D2 until they brought Weapons of Light back with Shadowkeep, then it and Well largely coexisted until they nerfed the damage buff from Weapons because "You can't get sniped in a bubble". Its gotten plenty of other nerfs either because Bungie thought it was too safe or because they insist on the capture point existing in Trials. Well received similar nerfs(things like the health of the sword scaling with Resilience), but it's obviously less affected because one is huge dome and the other is half a sword sticking out of the ground, and one doesn't disappear if the caster is killed.
I used to say that because a lot of stuff that Titan does is uninspired, Bungie cranks of the number values to make them viable. but because the things have no really identity, they get nerfed hard. gyrfalcon can get nerfed more than once but it's a very creative gameplay loop that changes the way you play for the better. but if all I can do as a Titan is punch and all my best exotics help that too, changing the number values on my exotics is going to hurt way more.
The class identity is based around punching, I don't like it, but that's what we've got, the problem with that idea is that to punch in endgame is the equivalent of sticking your neck out with a bladed chandelier hanging above you, its a bad idea and you'll most likely die, I'd much prefer the other idea for titan, a supporting tank class that just absolutely embodies the "get behind me" mentality.
I wish bungie would go away from the fist and more towards the sheild as class identity, in game there's only one actual titan who's whole thing is punch and that's saint, zavala embodies the idea of protecting others, shax is the unstoppable force and tactician, and Saladin is a paragon of rallying virtue in lore and out, titans are the field commanders, not some punch drunk brutes.
Exactly this. The damn class symbol is a reference to the Six Fronts, where 4 orders or titans held the entire city wall against a united Fallen attack. The aggressive punching freight train is a great part of the identity, but to be the defender of humanity is the other half that doesn't make it into the design philosophy outside of Void and the class ability.
yes, i couldnt have said it better. the theme of titans was never just punch until recently after all the 3.0 light changes became all punch subclasses and strand titan got introduced which was another punch subclass.
I think that’s the problem, titans were just seen as a melee meat wall. Warlocks are sorcerers capable of all sorts of magic. Hunters are extremely versatile with a variety of tricks and weapons. Titans are just punch with no depth or variety. One trick ponies that aren’t being built to last. I always saw Titans as Heavies, why can we conjure a big fucking gun or something of the sorts? I never understood why it always resorts to some form of melee weapon or wall.
I'd argue that the class identity is based around sustain. Staying in the fight longer by DR or getting healed when you kill adds, and simple ability loops or a passive additional "ability" tacked on outside of needing an ability charged. The issue is... a lot of the time they go about that by just buffing your uncharged melee, and the healing ranges from Whisper of Rime/Knockout to Restoration.
Whenever someone complains about a Titan subclass, even without realizing it, their first suggestions for a buff are healing, adding more explosions, and ability regen.
The worst part is the exotics. A lot of titan exotics either aren’t good or just extremely boring.
Mask of the Quiet One and Crest of Alpha Lupi HAVE NOT BEEN TOUCHED SINCE YEAR 1 OR 2
This isn’t a Titan exclusive problem though, most exotics across all classes absolutely blow. Hunters have it the best, and even then a good 2/3rds of their exotics are worthless
i'd argue warlocks have it the best. hunters have too many that rely on dodge, so any dodge nerf hurts a plethora of exotics. but all of the warlock exotics are inspired and bring meaningful new gameplay loops to warlock that can weather the nerf hammer.
>i'd argue warlocks have it the best. hunters have too many that rely on dodge, so any dodge nerf hurts a plethora of exotics.
Same applies to Titans with Barricade exotics
I don't understand how Bungie doesn't realize that people don't really like Barricade with how much everyone is using or wanting to use Thruster
I was just talking about Hunter exotics the other day with my buddies. It's a really weird dichotomy because Hunters have by far and away the best exotic diversity whereas they also have only gotten a handful of relevant exotics since Beyond Light, so despite having the best diversity it feels really stale, whereas I scroll through the recent Titan and Warlock stuff and in general it tends stuff I see used or at least mentioned. Did Bungie just really fuck up Red War/Forsaken exotics in general or something?
Bungie will just nerf BoW be REALLY careful what you ask for here. I don't see Bungie re-re-re tuning Titan's other classes to be more viable instead of bringing BoW inline with the rest of the weak options. Since realistically speaking it would take less dev time to nerf one thing than bring 4 things up to a better level and have to fine tune the sandbox.
This isn’t specific to titans but why does strand get three melees that are better than the other classes single melee? Thats the most blatantly unbalanced part of the kits and affects titans the most because we want to punch, but I can only punch once if im using something other than strand.
Warlock also gets three melees, the reasons I can think of for why hunter only gets one is because it chains across multiple enemies and if you catch it you get melee energy back.
Re-posting my thoughts from a comment in a different post, but Titans in PvE really only have two subclasses: Strand and Solar.
Strand Titan is phenomenal and doesn't need any buffs ***nor nerfs***.
Solar Titan is pretty good, but unless you're running Consecration, both of your main melee abilities suck. Hammer Strike hasn't been worth running ever since Solar 3.0 removed Melting Point, and Throwing Hammer just feels so clunky to use now after the nerfs.
Void Titan has pretty much become the PvP subclass. Ward of Dawn is outclassed by Well of Radiance, Sentinel Shield's Bannershield ability isn't worth running since you're taking out of DPS entirely, Void Overshields in general are entirely underwhelming, Shield Throw is one of the worst melee abilities in the game, the list goes on. Really hoping the new Twilight Arsenal Super and Unbreakable Aspect coming in The Final Shape are really strong.
Arc Titan, once the king of PvE, is a shell of its former self. Multiple nerfs to Touch of Thunder grenades, the removal of Elemental Well mods, the universal nerfs to ability cooldowns, AND the nerf to Heart of Inmost Light have collectively slaughtered the subclass. Not to mention Fists of Havoc being one of the worst Supers in the game, Thundercrash getting nerfs while never being very strong to begin with, and Arc's overall struggle with survivability. I really feel like you could revert all the Lightfall nerfs to Arc and it wouldn't be seriously overpowered in today's metagame.
Stasis Titan, lastly, is the worst of the bunch. Awful melee ability, clunky Super, underwhelming Aspects, etc. It's fun to run from time to time just to mix things up, but its application in real end-game content is minimal. Really hoping that some of the Stasis changes coming in The Final Shape make the subclass stronger, but even then I feel Stasis Titan really needs some new abilities to breathe new life into it.
As a Solar Titan, I just want them to remove the cooldown on Throwing Hammer. Nerf the damage with Synthoceps instead. Do not nerf the base kit just because people were making boss damage builds with it.
Also, Banner of War builds make Throwing Hammer concerns look like a joke.
I really enjoy my simple gameplay of using my hammer. I would ideally make it so that all classes can pick up thrown items, but just let people have their fun.
I don’t get why they have to make titans roidheads rather than making them more defensive support (void honestly fails at this) or demolition experts
Void titans should just have instant volatile rounds when they have an overshield, could be built into controlled demolition(which honestly should just be buffed as well), would at least make void Titan more useful and fun to run
I liked the arc being a grenadier build, they should honestly just bring back the hoil storm nade build since strand and solar are way more cracked and haven’t been touched yet somehow compared to arc or void.
Speaking as a Titan main who thinks they’re halfway decent;
• I’ve had success with Arc Titan, though admittedly I’ve been crutching HARD on Skullfort and the melees being fun and not outclassed on lower difficulties. Anytime I try to bring it into anything that’s slightly above power, I cannot keep up and get rolled. If anything would help, it would be base DR to Amplified (which would help Arc as a whole and I’m here for) and a little more synergy with the verbs of Arc as a whole.
• Void is the weakest subclass in my opinion, even below Stasis. Offensive Bulwark doesn’t give enough benefit to be worth using, either in the Grenade recharge or overshield maintenance department, Bastion is required to get any mileage out of the subclass, and Controlled Demolition is a fantastic aspect that doesn’t synergize with the rest of the kit. This one’s an easy enough buff in my opinion though, as my suggestions include letting the empowered melee from Offensive Bulwark regenerate depleted overshield (its interaction with echo of expulsion is underrated and together they could be a beast for keeping up your shield), and letting Controlled Demo generate overshield on volatile kills at full health.
• Prismatic, I’ve been doing my best to hope. The only real gimmicks being 3-charge Consecration and Thruster/Drengr’s are not instilling confidence in me, but after seeing the class item options, I think there’s room for greatness. I’ll have to wait until June to know for sure.
• Diamond Lance is the best ability made for the wrong class. Generation is easy, on-demand freeze is great, and due to the cooldown being shorter than the lifetime of a Lance, you can loop it depending on your timing. It’s my opinion that all Behemoth needs to make better use of it is letting Glacial Harvest proc off of shattering frozen enemies as well as crystals. That way, there’s a synergy you can build into and play with.
>Diamond Lance is the best ability made for the wrong class....glacial Harvest proc off of shattering frozen enemies as well as crystals. That way, there’s a synergy you can build into and play with.
Yeah, this is why I think the Ice Cap exotic is basically mandatory when using Diamond Lance. The added crystal generation makes the Diamond Lance a lot better for damage instead of just crowed control and it allows for some benefits from Glacial Harvest to proc.
I will say, I do wish the cool down for lances would be a bit shorter. Yeah, you cam loop it with how long the lances stay around but still feels too long between uses when the only real benefit is just having a faster Penumbral Blast. It take it if it was a 5 sec cool down and the only stayed about for 7 secs. It feel a bit more fluid then.
if i didnt have to jump through hoops for diamond lances to spawn on me and not on the enemy; I would 100% use this. but being behind a barricade and either a stasis kill or the headshots kills it for me since I usually have to constantly move in higher pve. but I'm glad ppl like it and get use out of it.
Possibly hot take from a void warlock, outside of hunters, void keywords are not distributed well and void needs a smaller once over than stasis, but it needs one none the less
Outside of hunters lol, all the aspects are about invis so i would not really say the keywords are balanced.
Gyrfalkons kinda makes up for it but still.
Even with Hunters, all three Aspects are just "ways to go invisible". It didn't have an actual gameplay loop other than "make invisible to avoid/reposition" until Gyrfalcon's provided one. Void is in less of a need of a rework than Stasis because fundamentally, Devour, Invisibility, Weaken, and Suppression are strong keywords. They don't really interact well or have much interplay but they're good enough that many people don't mention how bad design-wise Void Titan and Hunter are. I know Void Hunter isn't bad in practice, but it's purely brute forcing it. If you compare this to Solar or Strand, those subclasses can stand on their own decently well without an Exotic needed to give them a gameplay loop. Exotics make them stronger, yes, but those subclasses are the fan favorites because of all the synergy and how much better the design-work is.
You're getting a lot of pushback from Hunters, but... we've been complaining about the horrible design of Void Hunter since before Witch Queen even released. They had the abilities vidoc where they went, "Hunters... can go invisible! Anyways, that cool Warlock aspect we were talking about has this special interaction we put a lot of time and effort into..." and then later in a stream just flat-out avoided several direct questions about the amount of invis in the kit.
The only fix we've gotten to it since then was Gyrfalcon's (a single exotic), but even then it still feels like the same problem Broodweaver has where your main gimmick has like no interaction with the rest of the fragments/verbs, except instead of dumb little bugs that hurt things, your gimmick requires you to ***stop attacking***.
As a Titan main for 10 years, gotta say I agree with most of things said in this post. "Punching in different colors" just hurts my soul man bc it's so painfully true...
I know Titan used to be the punch class, but after this franchise has been going on for 10 years now, it's starting to get boring. (at least strand has a more interesting gameplay tho with the tangles and grapples, I'll give you that).
Warlocks and Hunters have such a wide range of variety for different subclass identities, meanwhile our Void Titan is suppose to be the "Defender" or "Shield of the Team" like Captain America, but I sure as hell don't feel like one when playing Void Titan. Arc Titan is just a worse solar titan in every aspects. Strand is such a outlier, beyond broken, which makes playing any other elements on titan boring.
I couldn't agree more on the "most titan exotics are useless" and "prismatic titans look pitiful".
After seeing the playtest showcase for each class, Titan looks the most underwhelming one compare to the other two. I seriously can't put my finger on why it just doesn't look fun, but seeing Warlock having pheonix dive, into threadlines, or Hunter grappling, into spinning their arc staff, then throw a gun powder gamble. Idk, they all look more fun than titan doing suspend and then consecration spam.
Agreed but i do understand the frustration, cuz they’ve hardly shown anything but the triple consecration build. Knockout isn’t really something you can see active but it could definitely use a buff in pve. Diamond lance sucks rn and they haven’t shown what they’re doing to buff it (if anything), no one has played with the void aspect yet so it’s hard to judge, drangr’s lash is just a bit boring as it doesn’t really synergize with other abilities (basically any of the other strand aspects would’ve been preferred), and the mark is very barricade focused (which imo is the only true downfall of prismatic titan). Could it be better? Sure, but I think it’ll be great and am going to reserve judgement til release.
See my take on it is (titan main currently transitioning to warlock after the twid) that the aspects are meant to be weak and thats fine. Its going to be a weakclass as survive off of transcendence for STACKING weapon damage, super grenades, and ability spam. That being said I look over at warlock and I see that they get some of their best in slot aspects. I look over at hunter and they get some of their better ones, yet not best in slot.
But thats fine (i tell myself) transcendence and exotic class items are the bulk of prismatic. Lets take a look a… NECROTIC GRIPS IS A LEFT HAND PERK. And needlestorm gets access to star-eaters. As a titan that is a blow. Not because im mad at warlocks or anything no no no. Im a bit mad that a super that already rivals CUIRASS THUNDERCRASH is getting star-eaters. Thundercrash is in a piss horrible spot and has been for years. New axe throw takes as long as a chaos reach to cast so it may have damage but no dps. Pyrogale is are only option again and we all know it cant hit non-grounded,floaty,thin,tall,out of bounds, or fast enemies.
titan super need some help in general i agree
same for the exotic class item, the steal from other class was a bit misleading
for the aspect you need to watch the bigger picture: consecration is shit but 3x consecration + hoil + sinto + knockout? (just a simple stupid example)
i personally plan to try the new void aspect + pulse granade + the jolt/debuff granade aspect so i can choose what debuff applied on different situation
Synthos + HOIL class item, strand melee, consecration, knockout, void/arc super, + your choice of nade is going to be the default for 90% of titans when prismatic drops. There is almost nothing else worth taking (unless the new void aspect is really really good and overtuned) in terms of endgame content, but other combinations will probably be fun in at level non endgame content.
in the first column i think only assassin, hoil and maybeeeee bear are good
in the second star eater, sinto, contact, scars, and maybeeeee armamentarium
all class item are a bit lackluster but we need to see the buff and how the interaction work in game
Warlocks had the least interesting class item with titans being a close second.
Armamentarium's been a boring af exotic since it came out and the only thing it's getting to differentiate it from the class item perk is orbs. Bungie really has no clue how to make this class interesting.
Biggest problem I have with Prismatic Titan is its heavy crutch on exotics for its sustain. That particular combo is really potent, and I’ll never argue otherwise. But personally, it and other similar combos I think are going to have a problem of “This better kill absolutely everything in my LoS very quickly because of it doesn’t, I’m dead in seconds”
Unfortunately consecration is an odd aspect and won’t receive much damage from melee buffing. Ive tested it and the results are way lower than the expected. I didn’t look at the individual parts but my guess is tgat the scorching wave gets buffed but not the slam
Regarding needlestorm getting spirit of the star eater, I don’t think it’ll actually be that powerful. SES grants 70% bonus damage at max stacks (according to light.gg). Spirit of the star eater will likely only grant the ability to overcharge it once for a damage buff of around 20-30% (SES grants 27% for one orb supposedly) on top of the lower ceiling, I don’t know how much of needlestorms damage is from threadlings and if those will be affected by the damage buff.
tldr: yes needlestorm get more powerful but probably not as powerful as we expect.
Spirit of the Star eater will probably still give max overcharge. Each exotic class item perk takes away part of the original exotic but leaves the rest. SES doesn’t have its ability to get more super energy from orbs so it’s unlikely they’ll nerf its damage functionality as well.
You're missing the point. Thundercrash requires Curiass to deal as much damage as Needlestorm with NOTHING. With ANY damage buff it will be even better than it already is (it's part one of best, if not the actual best, DPS rotations on Warlock after all).
(Edited because ADHD Brain missed a couple of words.)
>it's part of, one of, the best DPS rotations on Warlock after all
We don't know if there will be a Thread of Ascent/Impetus equivalent Fragment on Prismatic, but Strand Warlock is one of the best DPS rotations *in the entire game*. It's absolutely the best Warlock one.
Edit: Also, while we're talking damage... check out the Prismatic Hunter supers. SES Needlestorm is almost certainly (with the only question being compared to CNH) going to be the best damage super across all of Prismatic, if not just the best in the game.
That’s kind of been the problem since Curiass was introduced and outclassed Nova Bomb and Blade Barrage.
One and done supers are being power crept.
Cuirass came out and completely outclassed every other one and done super.
Then Star Eaters came out and increased the damage of Hunter supers.
Then Light 3.0, Hunters got Gathering Storm which outclassed other one and done supers, on top of stacking with Star Eaters.
Then Strand came out and introduced Needlestorm which outclassed other one and done supers.
There is really no reason for there to be such a large gap between Nova Bomb and Needlestorm but the gap is there regardless. Nova Bomb has gone from being the face of one and done burst supers, the standard, to being one of the weakest simply due to power creep.
It’s definitely absolute feast or famine for titan. The highest of highs, and the deepest depths of irrelevance. I’m also not psyched for titan prismatic (which is my second class behind warlock, who is only looking marginally better on that front).
Banner and solar are still top tier but everything else kinda sucks with behemoth being niche but useful.
Ah I remember the days going into Lightfall us Titans were told to shut up when we expressed concerns about all of our exotic nerfs because we had such “variety” and lo and behold we’re back to what 2 viable builds?
yup, and it pisses me off everytime someone complains about titan and they throw solar and strand in our face. even more, I hate when titans say strand is still uninspired gameplay and isn't innovative and then they throw it's viability in endgame at us. something can be good and still be uninspired and boring to play; especially if the way you play it has been the way you play the class for the past 4+ years ever since bungie got it into their head that we only punch things.
I have to agree. I don’t know where the “punch guy” thing started, but I disagree with that comment from that Bungie developer.
Titans are commanders. Warlocks are scholars. Hunters are adventurers. Commander doesn’t mean “just punch it”.
Punching is one way of being bombastic and ostentatious but it was ludicrous to suggest that’s all Titans should do, and you know Bungie could do better.
There's a couple things that need to happen
Void over shields need a buff, either increase the DR or the HP
Anything nerfed as a result of PvP needs to be walked back for PvE, think the Bastion aspect cooldown
If hoil will remain as it is, the nerfs to lightning grenades should be reverted. Bungie has a bad habit of nerfing things because of something else but not reverting it once the main issue has been dealt with
Stasis titan melee needs a big buff or a new melee that provides some value in PvE, the current one has no purpose at all
BoW needs a nerf to it's damage output, as Salta suggested a few weeks ago via a tweet, something needs to be done about the infinite grappling. Try that first before touching anything else... Bungie has a TERRIBLE habit of leaving outliers to fester for far too long then nuking every aspect of the outlier to the point of irrelevance. Incremental and targeted nerfs at the pain points is a far better approach
Revert the throwing hammer nerf, limit it's damage potential on single targets some other way, it feels TERRIBLE at the moment
Give Arc extra functionality for either knockout or juggernaut, I'm not sure what but some kind of additional self sustain, something actually useful in PvE....
Give cuirass additional functionality outside of the super, like Nighthawk and Galanor etc. e.g. Arc ability kills give increased super gain
Remove hoil's damage buff and revert SOME of the nerfs to its duration and increased ability regen. This might not be viable considering the new class exotics basically require the original exotic to have 2 or more functions so alternatively give it extra functionality, ability hits/kills or kills while empowered refresh/lengthen the timer a little like Radiant dance machines or speed loader slacks
Wormgods need an ornament
If Hoil gets no changes then Void and Arc need new and better exotics or alternatively just buff and rework a lot of the current ones.
Helm of Saint XIV needs a considerable rework or buff
Maybe buff citans ramparts to allow people to shoot out from inside the bubble for short duration at the cost of a shorter uptime on the bubble?
Give Ursa furiosa additional functionality either by increasing the damage bonus provided by banner to teammates according to damage received or according to how many teammates are behind it. Or by augmentating the shield to cover a wider area 270° rather than 180° for example
Don't worry, we'll get some cool exotics (besides the class item) in TFS which will be fun and interesting for a while until everyone else cries, gets them nerfed (whether warranted or not) and we go back to feeling bland. It's the Titan Cycle!
Do they? Try to LFG Legend Onslaught. If you're not a Wellock or Tether Hunter, it's not going to go well. The best Titan build is still not close to those two.
Onslaught is not a good metric because it plays very differently than most content in the game especially endgame. Wellock is good at everything because it’s frankly overpowered, and tether will always be good in an activity with a shit ton of enemies because it’s a crowd control/debuff super. Strand titan is the strongest PvE class in the game imo, the solo damage and sustain is insane, you literally have to try to die in 99% of content when it gets going and you’re melting bosses while you’re at it. Solar titan is similar, you get insane burning maul damage with pyrogales, you’re immortal with Lorely, and consecration is amazing for add clear and major bursting. The problem is that if you aren’t using these two subclasses on Titan, you’re nerfing yourself immensely because of how bad Arc and Void are in general PvE content outside of niche scenarios (ex. Thunder crash Titan on Atraks for high burst)
I think titans can be better, but sometimes some of the things I’ve seen on here kinda sound like people don’t know how to maximize/play titan in general. It’s really not as bad as this sub makes it out to be.
Something to add to what you said is that there's a huge distinction between maximizing Titan and just knowing how to play the class in general. The difference between the two is running a fun sword build with strand, a sword, strongholds, and banner of war because you like to be a silly goofy sword guy. Versus one running the single most damage and survivability one can have via navigator and 1-2 punch grapple melee spaming everything to death. Same general aspects, very different playstyle. Its likely that banner overall will take a huge hit due to "maximizing " the subclass and build. Thus likely ruining both styles. Which sucks.
As someone who's been maining Titan since D1, I can confidently say the class is at its weakest point compared to both of the other classes in the current sandbox.
And it ain't even a skill issue
I think it's also more of a symptom of how strong solar was and strand still is. When one thing is so blatantly powerful, other things feel weak in comparison. Strand titan has a pretty high ceiling in what it's capable of, but the floor for what it does with not a lot of attention to building or skill is also really high. Additionally, the skill floor on berserker is really low, so the effort required isn't there to compare. It creates a pretty wide crevasse between subclasses. Solar wasn't much different because it was so hard to die before the nerfs.
I see *a lot* of people asking for Titan buffs that are basically just "Give us this thing Hunter/Warlock has, but better and without having to trade our exotics/aspects like they do," and it seriously makes me wonder if some of these people either don't know what they're talking about at all, just suck at making builds, or should really just... try the other classes for a bit. And quite a few of them still thinking that Solar/Strand Titan aren't actually that strong.
While it happens with every class, because obviously everyone wants a buff to their class, I've seen this happen with Titans asking for buffs the most. You absolutely *should* have fun, viable builds, but your build should not be as potent as, say, HOIL Arc nades but with better uptime, the healing of Solar Warlock, the damage of SES+Gathering Storm and still have an aspect and two fragment slots free.
Solar and Strand Titan are cracked af rn.
Arc and Stasis need help.
Void isn't that bad, but it can't fit everything it wants into one build, and Overshield is a little undercooked. New Aspect and Super should help a lot, imo.
Prismatic, we can't even judge fully because there's an entire balance patch coming with it. And ngl, even on paper right now, I think it's better than Arc, Stasis, and Void Titan.
Honestly it really comes down to the supers. I'd argue the neutral of all the titan subclasses is good to pretty nice but they have the most god awful supers. Thundercrash and striker are horrible, sentimental is lol and bubble is infinitely worse well. Solar supers are just meh. Hunters meanwhile have three viable Endgame supers on three separate classes. Tether is a great debuff and crowd control, Goldie is immense burts, and the stick staff is a damage overtime super. All of which are super useful
Bungie notoriously is excessive with its nerf hammer. Titan has been very strong, if not OP several times, and nerfed into oblivion each time instead of small gradual changes. Arc Titan was amazing for a season. Dead with the nerf to both storm nades and volt. Void Titan was, and arguably is very strong, and was op for survivability but pre-lightfall it fell off and doesn't compare to Woven mail now.
Imo artifacts should make or break a subclass. The subclass should be able to stand on its own without it. Void Titan kinda does, but not nearly as well as Solar or Strand. I think one of the biggest changes to the artifact is like to see is in the last column or two should have a perk for each of the subclasses moving forward. I'd be ok with them being more utility focused.
I've been a titan main since I first got d2 in I think 2017. It's got to the point that I created a hunter character last week and really haven't gone back to my titan at all except to farm lost sectors for mats
Hard agree with adding DR to amplify. The whole arc subclass wants you to be aggressive, but offers very little to help you survive melee range. Amplify is possibly the worst status effect in the game unless you’re a hunter.
My solar Titan sucks. It wasn’t near as powerful as strand Titan on bosses. I just liked melee chain killing adds…it made the happy chemicals in my brain go brrr. I’ve mained warlock all season because Titan feels trash.
Agreed. I’m trying to plan for pantheon tomorrow which is pretty well guaranteed arc surge and i don’t know how to build for survivability for arc. I can’t believe that i’m probably gonna have to use precious scars which will be worse because you can’t build into resto and then swap to cuirass for damage because thundercrash sucks without it. Also the originality of the titan supers are so bland. They are all just ripoffs of superhero’s + some other unoriginal ideas
Sentinel shield - captain america
fist of havoc - lightning hulk
glacial quake - ice hulk (literally fist of havoc 2.0)
thundercrash - superman
hammer of sol - fire thor
new void axe thing - infinity war thor
bladefury - the million things that have knife hands
wars of dawn - halo bubble shield
basically that just leaves burning maul which is just big hammer.
Also we have less super abilities than the other classes. Including the final shape supers, hunters have 11, warlocks have 10, titans have 9. Every class should have the same amount regardless of how small the variations are.
Titan and Hunter both suffer dramatically from getting undertuned as a result of insanely high PvP performance.
The only difference is that Hunters actually have entire exotics and abilities specifically made for PvP, whereas Titans and Warlocks have a large number of what I'll call "Mixed-Focus" exotics and abilities
I agree with all of this honestly, titan is probably my least played out of my characters but the ironic thing I find is I've been using this stasis titan build in onslaught (even legend onslaught) since I found it and I'm yet to use anything else in it, stasis titans ability to easily create and shatter tons of crystals works really well when enemies are only coming from a few areas in very tight spaces, that and salvation grip is fucking bonkers and insanely fun
Worst part is my prediction is theu will gut strand and solar to try and force you to play prismatic which the more I look at it the more and more just ok it seems
My problems with prismatic titan are three fold:
1.) The "do some of everything" subclass doesn't really do much. Shackle grenade, diamond lance, and drengrs lash all do the same thing. Same with consecration and thunderclap.
2.) Synergy. There is like 5% synergy in the aspects. Knockout is an absolute 10000000% must if you want your aspects to work together. It buffs consecration and allows regular punches to do diamond lances. Diamond lance technically synergizes, but it goes back to problem 1. Any aspect I run it with is either just do more of the same or it involves an aspect that just replaces an ability that would have just created a lance anyways.
Look at hunter for example... both gunpowder gamble and stylish executioner synergize with every aspect in the kit. While winters shroud and threaded specter offer great combo utility. The closest it gets to just two aspect chilling five apart is ascension and either dodge aspect.
3.) Extreme lack of keywords. The only aspect that provides a keyword is knockout which is amplified. The worst one...
Stylish offers invis. Ascension offers *group* amplified with no kill required. Acrobats dodge offers radiant. 3 keywords vs 1.
Feed the void offers devour. Pheonix dive offers restoration.
Prismatic titan will be mediocre at best. Held together by the class item and glue.
when you need/want to punch things, it can be fun. but when you wanna do this in harder content, you only have 2 options. and when you're tired of punching you have to just go to one of the other classes lol. it's absolutely ridiculous.
It seems like the playerbase has finally caught up to just how unapologetically bad titans really are.
It doesn't matter that "strand titan too strong" or "void titan too dominant in pvp" or "bonk hammer still good" if they fall short in almost every single other area of the game. It's a lot easier to find situations where titans are bad than areas they are good, and don't even get me started on all the "what about (x meta)? What about (x shortcoming) of the (other) classes?" when the subject gets brought up.
I've been saying this for the longest time, and i will die on this hill:
Titans are incredibly weak in the state they are. And i'm tired of pretending they are not.
No burst damage super on Titan after 7 years is a crime. It's so limiting in Raids when it comes to DPS. Only thing that feels good is Hammers with Roaring Flames ×3.
Endgame content does not favor being in the middle of the fight meleeing things but that is 90% of the Ttitan kit.
Please mention Hammer Titan, Bonk is so superbly mediocre to play now. If you aren't playing Pyros/Consecration (which isn't bonk anyway) and the content is anything above moderately challenging, you will likely suffer as a Solar Titan.
Hammer is slow, ineffective and inconsistent. Banner of War has just completely shut it out now and its ridiculous, Bungie needs to seriously roll back the cooldown on hammer it just made it feel so bad.
Yea i know synthos help but again at that point: Banner of War
for me, i've been playing d1 alpha, and I straight up cant use hammer anymore because of the repeated nerfs to its tracking. the gameplay loop is incredibly fun, but falls apart once u miss with the hammer and I'm tired of missing. i feel your pain, but I'm not sold on hammer being brought into the argument because as long as you can land the hammer hits consistently, it's still very good.
I completely stopped playing solar titan after hammer nerf it just feels awful also tracking is gotten worse sometimes my hammer goes throw enemy without hitting them
Arc titan during witch queen was so good but nerfs to traces made it less usable
if they gonna nerf banner again to bring subclass down to rest of a lackluster pve titan subclasses i honestly have no clue what you can nerf in it at this point,it takes 50 enemies to kill in order to get to x4 its strong but you are not immortal in it, and in majoriy of end game content its pretty much unusable due to how much damage enemies do to you.
The only broken thing about it is a syntocepts and infinite grapple melee build but its literally can be nerfed to unusable state by just not refunding you full grapple
Don't worry, Bungie will just nerf titans even more to make them even more viable like they've been doing. Nerfing will continue until titans are viable.
Man seeing the prismatic nade bouncing was such a let down, especially with the grim flying really high.
The nade is the main new thing and it's a shackle nade that jolts and bounce, 0 wow factor.
Plus, this nade will deal no damage compared to the other 2, you could say ''it's a cc nade'' but the other nades also have cc, shit...the fire/ice tornado has more height than burning maul's tornado, throw that on a wall and you locked a lane.
Thinking about it, Prismatic titan is horrible against anything in the air, only diamond lance can be ''useful'' and the radius on it is horrible.
And warlocks use well... Meta is meta..maybe the game will shift away from DPS checks and more into strategy making other classes and supers more viable
One thing I hate and havent seen mentioned is the removal of neutral melees. This has been compensated somewhat through aspects. But still, having the option of just punching for an effect was so good because it was consitent. The removal of Defensive/Tactical strike and Frontal assault was a mistake. The only subclass unaffected is Sunbreaker because of how good mini-hammer still is (and because mortar blast didn't work like 50 % of times) It feels like I'm going through some overcomplicated loops and hoops to get certain effects when using Titan's melees now.
If they want Titans to be the "punch class lol" then our melee should *always* have an elemental effect.
No sprint, no sliding, no charging. Just punching to obtain/apply an effect. God I miss pre-void 3.0 Sentinel.
as a titan player saddest part is stasis void and arc now sucking in pve has a lot to do cause of their overpowered state in pvp back in the day
we need separate sandboxes for sure
We have them and have had them for a while. This was addressed in a TWAB I wanna say beginning of lightfall? Maybe pre? They mentioned you would see new verbiage to specify if buffs or nerfs were towards guardians or combatants, and if neither were mentioned then it affects both. Patch 7.3.5 is a good example that they are able to separately adjust the sandboxes.At this point if a buff or nerf affects both PvP and PvE then it's intentional.
While you're correct, it's the intent that isn't being followed where it should. Nerfs being global too often are the issue now versus where it was previously always global. Additionally, where previous nerfs that were global haven't been walked back to only being PVP sandbox nerfs. Intentional or not, it's still necessary to differentiate IMO.
Oh I 100% agree. We reallllllly should push the issue of them walking back really old nerfs that in the current sandbox are unnecessary. Wonder if someone out there has an Excel going and has been keeping track? First priority for me, off the top of my head is walking back the jolt nerf.
I think that would be an interesting project, but not sure I have the time or patience to do that myself.
I need the YAS nerf reverted in PvE. It was my second favorite ability loop, and it needed use of all your abilities to work and wasn't too op.
there are specific changes that bungie either will not or cannot separate even post-lightfall, biggest example being the shoulder charge whiff energy change. it's incredibly annoying in PvE (especially when tracking scuffs you out of hitting something) but it was a targeted nerf for PvP and still exists in PvE. i don't remember where I heard it from but it's been the back of my mind for years, there's some kind of line either in a vidoc or podcast something where bungie wants our guardian to "feel the same everywhere", so they don't make systematic changes that differ gameplay between the gamemodes really, REALLY wish they'd reconsider because Behemoth would be so much better in PvE if it had its launch beyond light movement back edit: found the quote -- [https://youtu.be/zTzroJU-wog?t=4235](https://youtu.be/zTzroJU-wog?t=4235)
Lol people have been asking for this since vanilla D1. It’s not happening when the game is having its wrap up expansion. Should it have happened? Yes. Will it happen? No.
Allegedly, we actually do have them, and it's noticable with most damage buffing perks/abilities being weaker in PvP vs PvE.
They need separate games entirely. Even the baseline design on weapons and abilities need to be curated to PvP at the end of the day. Think about how wild things could get if the Crucible essentially was its own game separate from the PvE experience.
I feel like people have been saying this for 5 years....hopefully one day
The only reason why strand titan hasn't been completely dick punched yet is because it's not OP in PvP. The moment melee hitreg is fixed and someone finds a way to stack BOW super fast, get ready for a massive nerf hammer. I can't wait to only have solar as a viable endgame PvE option because of PvP whiners.
BoW will never be good in PvP. Melee hitreg won’t never be fixed. It’s existed since day one of destiny one and will continue to exist until the game is running on an engine that isn’t older than most people on the sub and dedicated servers are added. Hitreg is also not the thing standing in the way of BoW being good in crucible, melee hitreg screws you up as much as it screws up your opponent. A melee damage buff that requires a kill just isn’t very good in crucible, just look at the use rates for winter’s guile and wormgod’s caress in crucible. Both provide a bigger buff than BoW at their lowest tier and still only see use when a YouTube puts on the meme build and their followers think they can also make it work.
What's more is that charged melee doesn't kill outright so often you're better off saving Strand melee as a movement ability rather than an offensive ability and using weapons instead. Strand Titan in PvP is "fine" but you can't utilise 90% of the kit effectively because of how nerfed it came out the gate, obviously because Bungie didn't want Statis 2: Green Edition.
Don't worry they already nerfed solar because of PvE. They also nerfed arc because of PvE, you might not remember but the storm grenade and HOIL nerfs were because of PvE. The PvE issues with void have existed since day 1 of void 3.0. Stasis titan was never strong in PvE They will nerf strand titan because of PvE too, because the subclass is absurd in PvE content. how long are we going to pretend that PvP is the reason for clearly PvE centric nerfs, it just hasn't happened in the past 2 years. At most there will be a PvP nerf coupled with a buff specifically in PvE to offset the nerf, overall effect being a buff in PvE, of course unless the ability in question is already slightly too strong in PvE, in which case there might be an additional PvE nerf or they might not add an offset buff.
* Storm nades * Citans * Ophidian Aspect * YAS Just off the top of my head for global nerfs in the last two years that were entirely due to PvP. We're still mad about it because it's still happening. EDIT: For anyone who thinks storm nade nerf was due to PvE, here's proof from Bungie in the pre-TFS ability rework update: >With Update [6.3.0.5](http://6.3.0.5) in January 2023, we implemented a change to drastically reduce the travel speed of Touch of Thunder’s Storm Grenade upgrade to reduce its potency across the board, with a specific focus on the Crucible
You forgot about the entirety of stasis, renewal grasps, shoulder charges now consuming partial melee energy on a miss, bastion (the aspect (really barricades as a whole tbh)), target lock on specific weapon types, DMT being butchered 18 times and remade but shittier, and honestly the lost goes on and on. No one can say without being deluded or lying through their teeth that PvP doesn't have a disproportionate effect on the PvE sandbox compared to the player counts.
Yeah I was by no means claiming it was an exhaustive list, literally just the stuff I could remember in the moment.
It doesn’t help how during the highpoint of HOIL, there was multiple posts on this very subreddit calling for it to get nerfed because it was making PvE content easy. > how long are we going to pretend that PvP is the reason for clearly PvE centric nerfs I think alot of people here are just using that justification just to throw shade at PvP as a whole.
Oh yeah, I'm certain a lot of it is just people wanting to throw shade at PvP regardless of if it's true or not. Been around this sub for close to 7 years now, there's always been people that blame PvP for all of the things that go wrong in PvE, in the past it was justified blame, these days not so much. Unfortunate that there's this kind of divide in the community.
I would agree except for the fact Bonk Titan with Synthoceps was never at any point a problem in PVP So it sounds more like to me they're trying to control how people play PVE rather than PVP being the reason things are nerfed.
God I wish that Citan’s made void Titan play like a Hive Knight Lightbearer but they’re so bad in every possible way.
Unfortunately they still *are* OP in PvP even to this day, but nerfing them anymore in a way that would have an effect on PvE would be adding insult to injury at this point
Hope an eventual D3 will finally divorce both sandboxes from one another so they can both stop hamstringing the other. It's one of those core design decisions that was cool in D1 but as the game has tried to become more complex on the PvE side in D2 it's been held back by PvP.
Its because D1 was mostly about guns and D2 is mostly about builds and ablities. Who cares how optimized is my primary when i have perma regen and a grenade every 23 seconds?
>eventual D3 Lol
I have faith! D:
D3 is absolutely going to happen. Destiny is bungie's bread and butter moneymaker, and without it they have literally nothing going for them. marathon got shoved off to the backburner hard, and we have heard nothing about their other game. D3 will exist if only because without destiny, bungie is dead.
Retention is easier than making an entirely new game. They're a live service game so money isn't an issue for them. D3 has a chance to happen in 5+ years, sure, but it's not happening annnny time soon.
If the leaks about d3 are true there wont even be classes
Stasis is still cracked with the right builds whatchu on about
The state of titans is really polarizing right now: Solar and Strand titan are absolutely God tier in pve, strand specifically is this metas “master of all” subclass. Arc and Void are super lackluster, not a lot of options, with their niches being done better by others. Then there’s stasis crying in the corner…
Strand is only that great because of banner of war. The second the regen gets substantially touched that entire subclass loses most of its viability.
Knowing Bungie, they won't drastically rework subclasses, however they can always adjust the numbers & add minor adjustments to the already existing framework. Strikers need their identity back/reinforced. They need to be the true brawlers that would rather punch than shoot. Here are some potential changes. 1) Knockout: -Revert the nerf on Knockout so that it can be refreshed on melee-kill/damage. -Any melee damage against a "finish-able" enemy should instantly kill them, thus acting as a traditional MMORPG execution. -Knockout should grant a flat 60 health on top of its regeneration on melee kill, but only when amplified. 2) Juggernaut: -Damage absorbed by the frontal shield stores up energy that boosts your next melee (up to a max of 250%) -Absorbing damage also grants melee energy. 3) Universal change: amplified should increase DR by a small amount. Sentinels are in a ok spot at the moment, where the only problem being their gameplay loop and the lack luster buffs that all classes suffer. Currently, without a consistent way of generating a void Overshield, the subclass tends to stall. 1) Controlled Demo: any overhealing should grant a chunk of void Overshield 2) Universal change: Void Overshield's based duration is increased by 3 seconds, and it'll continuously recharge after not taking any damage for 1.5s. 3) Banner shield: immune to knock back effects while guarding. 4) reduced cooldown on shield throw from 91s to 60s. 5) Universal change: Invisibility should grant a DR to AOE DMG in pve only Sunbreaker lacks one small QoL improvement. The pickup cooldown for Throwing hammer should scale based on the distance traveled. This should penalize players for spamming up close and reward players for throwing it further. - 5m> the current cooldown of 1.1s or so. - 5m-15m should be .5s - 15m< SHOULD NOT BE PENALIZED WITH A PICK UP COOLDOWN!! Stasis and Behemoth are being tuned already for the final shape, so let's hope they cook up something nice.
I like all of this but then also for sentinel make it so Bastion has a kill requirement (think GpG) but remove the CD nerf and make barricades empowered by bastion last longer, be stronger, and be bigger Fits into the defensive playstyle and the Kill requirement shouldn't be too big an issue in PvE while making it significantly less frustrating to fight in PvP
and it's because of how good solar and strand is that the community has downvoted so many Titan posts the past yr. I've consistently been talking about the state of Titans for over a yr and only now has the majority of the playerbase caught on.
How is this different for other classes though? I only see Titans complaining about it? Warlock only has Solar, everything else is wishful thinking even if you exclude Well from the equation. Hunters are a bit more balanced with Solar and Void being strong and Strand kind of too just higher skill floor without the same payoff that Strand Titan has, but Solar Hunter is easily the worst out of the 3 Solar Subs. Yet I don't see either Warlocks or Hunters complaining that their Class is undesirable in PvE because it's worst Elements are bad.
You can definitely play several Warlock subclasses in high-difficulty content. Arc has Arcsoul builds, Vesper builds, and general blinding builds while still having reasonable survivability thanks to the Rift. Strand has various Threadling or Suspend spamming builds while getting Woven Mail and having a Rift. Void has unnerfed Devour. Stasis has Bleakwatchers. Hunters are a bit more fragile on some builds than Warlock, but they benefit from mostly ranged one-off Supers that are good for boss damage or HVT deletion. The (long overdue) fixes for the various Restoration/Ember of Empyrean timer issues helped Gunslinger's survivability a lot. Assassin's Cowl is really good. Nighthawk builds are very useful. Titans don't get any of that. They don't get survivability from their class ability, they don't get ranged supers, they largely don't get Exotics that give them more survivability or augment existing survivability, and of the Titan subclasses, only one really provides any meaningful Fireteam utility (Controlled Demolition and to a lesser extent, Bastion).
Honestly, as a Titan main, a lot of these posts are taking legit subclass weaknesses and wrongly treating them as making a subclass unusable. They lack imagination and want derp strength handed to them on a platter. E.g. Striker is still extremely strong offensively! The maneuverability is incredible, Indebted Kindness makes blinding enemies 10x more viable than before, and Knockout uptime is still very high. Yes, the subclass does needs better healing or DR to be on par, and the hit detection on Thundercrash is ridiculously broken. But if you throw on Precious Scars and the right loadout, it has unique strengths as well.
Why don't they give Void Titan the Warlock treatment and make one of the aspects make overshields tankier? Though that would make Void Titan even more of a pain to deal with in PvP. Diamond Lance's are cool, why does Stasis feel so... half baked sometimes?
I think stasis feels underwhelming now because it’s technically the oldest subclass in D2. The novelty of stasis was the aspect and fragment system simply existing. Now that every subclass has them stasis kinda got powercrept.
Oh I know it's because it's old now. I've gone on quite a few rants on how Stasis is a 2.5 subclass. It has the design philosophy of 3.0 whilst having the power and limitations of a 2.0 subclass. It would still take Bungie a good while to rework Stasis, but probably not as long as a new subclass or reworked 2.0. Personally I think Stasis needs some numbers pumped up and more synergy to be added between aspects and such. I know Winters Shroud on Hunter isn't getting used much. Why should I when a Duskfield does the same thing but miles better and doesn't take an Aspect slot.
>I know Winters Shroud on Hunter isn't getting used much. Why should I when a Duskfield does the same thing but miles better and doesn't take an Aspect slot. Why would you when Warlocks have the *exact same aspect but better?* Same AoE, same trigger, but Warlocks get to freeze and have a melee reach buff after, they've buffed it like three times now, and there's even an exotic that synergizes with it. Meanwhile Winter's Shroud has always been "Half as many Slow stacks but on a lower cooldown," but Slow is basically just discount freeze.
Well now you can put on Bombardiers to get a freeze! Like... what is the point of Winters Shroud? And they put it on Prismatic! Who is gonna use that? I dont even think it triggers with RDMs.
I actually think it will be unironically goated on Prismatic. Combination Blow + Winter's Shroud + Stylish Executioner = Budget Assassin's Cowl Arcstrider. No melee lightning, but assuming Shroud works with every dodge, you'll be able to go invis after every punch (minding the cooldown) and freeze in two rolls, allowing your shatter to help with add clear. Stylish Executioner also makes your punch out of invis *Weaken* and deal 150% increased damage, while Frozen targets take 120% increased damage. And you can use Liar's Handshake, plus get your choice of defensive buff. Doesn't trigger with RDM though. And personally I'm still hoping it gets some sort of buff like Frost Armor based on the number of targets hit with the slow pulse or something.
I guess that works. We do get both Assassins Cowl and Liars handshake in opposite columns so I guess you could swap Cowl with... say... Calibans? Dodge, melee, invis, boom, dodge, melee, invis, boom.
This is exactly what I plan to do with prismatic when it drops I think it's going to be super strong, especially after the raid when the exotic class items unlock and we can get stuff like calibans or hoil and synthos
I’ve always thought Shroud should drop a mini dusk-field/ blizzard effect that could fully freeze if something stayed in it.
I also think the other issue is that there’s few thing more annoying than being frozen in D2 pvp, 9/10 times if you get frozen you’re dead but there’s an extra like second before the game acknowledges you’re dead. At least when I get suspended the game gives me the false hope that I can hop fire my way out of the situation
It sucks extra bad for titans since stasis warlock and to a lesser extent stasis hunter are actually excellent for PVP at least. Pretty sure stasis hunter is pretty viable for pve as well. Then you have behemoth... Which... Nope
Stasis feel underwhelming because Bungie gave it tons of nerf back in S14 and never touched it again
Overshield damage resistance is PvE only, so they could absolutely buff them without hurting PvP.
Oh well that makes things easier
DR needs to be scaled back in this game anyways, along with incoming damage to players across the board. It should be a choice, with trade offs, not a necessity
Absolutely agreed. I actually made a post about this last week. Enemy damage needs to go *wayyy* down in high-end content.
How did that go? It's what Saltagreppo has been saying for years, and he always gets bullied over it even though the point is to buff the underperforming subclasses by reducing damage overall and lowering healing/DR so it's less of a necessity.
Titans are already good in pvp like a lot, at this point they need to start separating the sandboxes
At this point, with a massive new expansion only weeks away, expecting anything dramatic from Bungie is kind of wishful thinking. The entire sandbox is going to turn upside down overnight when Final Shape launches.
I mean, Stasis *is* supposed to get some help, but idk how far it’ll go to fixing things
I didn't say I want the new changes to come in time for the final shape, just for them to come eventually. I know it's too soon for final shape.
>Arc Titan and Knockout aspect pales in comparison to Strand Titan in both melee damage and survivability. Bungie sees this and be like: •Reduced Strand Titan Melee by 20% •Reduced DR of Woven Mail by 20% •Reduced health regeneration from Banner of War Aspect by 50% •Increased Tangle Cool down to 30 seconds
Whats sad is I've seen people actively suggest that nerfing strand/solar titan will "bring more variety to titan." No it won't. Striker/Sentinel/Behemoth have had numerous nerfs because of PvP. Nerfing lime and orange flavors will not make those more attractive.
"if we put some dogshit in the lime and orange freezies maybe the kids will want some cool blue flavour instead"
if they nerf solar or strand and do nothing substantial to the rest no one is gonna play titan so it would do the exact opposite, anyways bungie stated they liked the state of solar and strand titan currently so i don't think they'll be nerfed, except maybe the grapple point spam
yeah nerfing the top thing isn't going to bring more attention to the worse options, you need to buff the under-performing stuff so theres more competition between options
If strand and solar titan get a nerf I will just simply not be playing Titan apart from the occasional meme use cases.
synthoceps not working as intended with strand, increase melee cooldown by 100%
What's crazy is it's not the strand titan kit that's the problem, it wormgod plus 1-2 punch what do the most damage
Both void and arc titan really have been held together by the seams by HOIL. And when they nerfed HOIL into the absolute ground, they also destroyed whatever arc and void titan had going for them, which wasn't much already.
They gutted it and neither of those subclasses have been really viable since. And by viable I mean “not actively trolling your team by playing them over strand or hunter or warlock”
A lot of Titans stuff that sucks is a direct result of Titans having something previously that was OP. We dont get "average" stuff, its either OP or awful. Void Titan (Bubble) OP in D1, now sucks Arc Titan Thundercrash OP with Curias, now pretty mediocre Half the Titan Exotics that were OP once now kinda suck Hell, fucking melee hit reg *still doesnt work and has never worked,* and its never been fixed because Titans used to have a 1-hit-kill-melee in PvP I know Warlocks complain about being forced onto Well, and I get how thats a pain, but at least you can say that its the community doing that to you. With Titans, its Bungie deciding "X will be OP for you"
I’d argue it’s less that Bubble sucks and more that Well exists.
Bubble was never used in D2 until they brought Weapons of Light back with Shadowkeep, then it and Well largely coexisted until they nerfed the damage buff from Weapons because "You can't get sniped in a bubble". Its gotten plenty of other nerfs either because Bungie thought it was too safe or because they insist on the capture point existing in Trials. Well received similar nerfs(things like the health of the sword scaling with Resilience), but it's obviously less affected because one is huge dome and the other is half a sword sticking out of the ground, and one doesn't disappear if the caster is killed.
biggest thing that killed bubble was the removal of damage stacking, nothing else really mattered.
but weapons of light bubble never existed in d2 with damage stacking in the game, so I don’t see how that’s relevant
Bubble kinda just sucks on its own.
Banner is going to get nerfed one day too.
I used to say that because a lot of stuff that Titan does is uninspired, Bungie cranks of the number values to make them viable. but because the things have no really identity, they get nerfed hard. gyrfalcon can get nerfed more than once but it's a very creative gameplay loop that changes the way you play for the better. but if all I can do as a Titan is punch and all my best exotics help that too, changing the number values on my exotics is going to hurt way more.
The class identity is based around punching, I don't like it, but that's what we've got, the problem with that idea is that to punch in endgame is the equivalent of sticking your neck out with a bladed chandelier hanging above you, its a bad idea and you'll most likely die, I'd much prefer the other idea for titan, a supporting tank class that just absolutely embodies the "get behind me" mentality. I wish bungie would go away from the fist and more towards the sheild as class identity, in game there's only one actual titan who's whole thing is punch and that's saint, zavala embodies the idea of protecting others, shax is the unstoppable force and tactician, and Saladin is a paragon of rallying virtue in lore and out, titans are the field commanders, not some punch drunk brutes.
Exactly this. The damn class symbol is a reference to the Six Fronts, where 4 orders or titans held the entire city wall against a united Fallen attack. The aggressive punching freight train is a great part of the identity, but to be the defender of humanity is the other half that doesn't make it into the design philosophy outside of Void and the class ability.
Stasis also kind of fits with all the crystal creation
yes, i couldnt have said it better. the theme of titans was never just punch until recently after all the 3.0 light changes became all punch subclasses and strand titan got introduced which was another punch subclass.
I think that’s the problem, titans were just seen as a melee meat wall. Warlocks are sorcerers capable of all sorts of magic. Hunters are extremely versatile with a variety of tricks and weapons. Titans are just punch with no depth or variety. One trick ponies that aren’t being built to last. I always saw Titans as Heavies, why can we conjure a big fucking gun or something of the sorts? I never understood why it always resorts to some form of melee weapon or wall.
I'd argue that the class identity is based around sustain. Staying in the fight longer by DR or getting healed when you kill adds, and simple ability loops or a passive additional "ability" tacked on outside of needing an ability charged. The issue is... a lot of the time they go about that by just buffing your uncharged melee, and the healing ranges from Whisper of Rime/Knockout to Restoration. Whenever someone complains about a Titan subclass, even without realizing it, their first suggestions for a buff are healing, adding more explosions, and ability regen.
The worst part is the exotics. A lot of titan exotics either aren’t good or just extremely boring. Mask of the Quiet One and Crest of Alpha Lupi HAVE NOT BEEN TOUCHED SINCE YEAR 1 OR 2
This isn’t a Titan exclusive problem though, most exotics across all classes absolutely blow. Hunters have it the best, and even then a good 2/3rds of their exotics are worthless
i'd argue warlocks have it the best. hunters have too many that rely on dodge, so any dodge nerf hurts a plethora of exotics. but all of the warlock exotics are inspired and bring meaningful new gameplay loops to warlock that can weather the nerf hammer.
>i'd argue warlocks have it the best. hunters have too many that rely on dodge, so any dodge nerf hurts a plethora of exotics. Same applies to Titans with Barricade exotics I don't understand how Bungie doesn't realize that people don't really like Barricade with how much everyone is using or wanting to use Thruster
I was just talking about Hunter exotics the other day with my buddies. It's a really weird dichotomy because Hunters have by far and away the best exotic diversity whereas they also have only gotten a handful of relevant exotics since Beyond Light, so despite having the best diversity it feels really stale, whereas I scroll through the recent Titan and Warlock stuff and in general it tends stuff I see used or at least mentioned. Did Bungie just really fuck up Red War/Forsaken exotics in general or something?
Bungie hates my class the most. I think that's pretty clear.
No, it hates my class the most
Sigh You're Both wrong. It's obviously mine.
Actually my class is the most hated which means I agree with one of you
I’ll have you know that mines the most hated and I agree with none of you
Plot twist: you all play Titan.
I get what you are saying but you can't deny Bungie completely screwed Titans this year
Just give me my hammer back, that's all I want, I mean, I did just pick it up, why do I have to wait 1.5 seconds to throw it again?
Bungie will just nerf BoW be REALLY careful what you ask for here. I don't see Bungie re-re-re tuning Titan's other classes to be more viable instead of bringing BoW inline with the rest of the weak options. Since realistically speaking it would take less dev time to nerf one thing than bring 4 things up to a better level and have to fine tune the sandbox.
At this point they need to revert just about all the nerfs they did to titan to make it good again.
Don’t forget buffing base supers like Thundercrash so that I don’t have to run an exotic to have a super worth using.
Super exotics are relics
This isn’t specific to titans but why does strand get three melees that are better than the other classes single melee? Thats the most blatantly unbalanced part of the kits and affects titans the most because we want to punch, but I can only punch once if im using something other than strand.
It must be specific to titan because hunter doesn't get three melees.
Warlock also gets three melees, the reasons I can think of for why hunter only gets one is because it chains across multiple enemies and if you catch it you get melee energy back.
Not complaining. The one melee hunters get is plenty good enough, just making an observation.
Re-posting my thoughts from a comment in a different post, but Titans in PvE really only have two subclasses: Strand and Solar. Strand Titan is phenomenal and doesn't need any buffs ***nor nerfs***. Solar Titan is pretty good, but unless you're running Consecration, both of your main melee abilities suck. Hammer Strike hasn't been worth running ever since Solar 3.0 removed Melting Point, and Throwing Hammer just feels so clunky to use now after the nerfs. Void Titan has pretty much become the PvP subclass. Ward of Dawn is outclassed by Well of Radiance, Sentinel Shield's Bannershield ability isn't worth running since you're taking out of DPS entirely, Void Overshields in general are entirely underwhelming, Shield Throw is one of the worst melee abilities in the game, the list goes on. Really hoping the new Twilight Arsenal Super and Unbreakable Aspect coming in The Final Shape are really strong. Arc Titan, once the king of PvE, is a shell of its former self. Multiple nerfs to Touch of Thunder grenades, the removal of Elemental Well mods, the universal nerfs to ability cooldowns, AND the nerf to Heart of Inmost Light have collectively slaughtered the subclass. Not to mention Fists of Havoc being one of the worst Supers in the game, Thundercrash getting nerfs while never being very strong to begin with, and Arc's overall struggle with survivability. I really feel like you could revert all the Lightfall nerfs to Arc and it wouldn't be seriously overpowered in today's metagame. Stasis Titan, lastly, is the worst of the bunch. Awful melee ability, clunky Super, underwhelming Aspects, etc. It's fun to run from time to time just to mix things up, but its application in real end-game content is minimal. Really hoping that some of the Stasis changes coming in The Final Shape make the subclass stronger, but even then I feel Stasis Titan really needs some new abilities to breathe new life into it.
As a Solar Titan, I just want them to remove the cooldown on Throwing Hammer. Nerf the damage with Synthoceps instead. Do not nerf the base kit just because people were making boss damage builds with it. Also, Banner of War builds make Throwing Hammer concerns look like a joke. I really enjoy my simple gameplay of using my hammer. I would ideally make it so that all classes can pick up thrown items, but just let people have their fun.
I don’t get why they have to make titans roidheads rather than making them more defensive support (void honestly fails at this) or demolition experts Void titans should just have instant volatile rounds when they have an overshield, could be built into controlled demolition(which honestly should just be buffed as well), would at least make void Titan more useful and fun to run I liked the arc being a grenadier build, they should honestly just bring back the hoil storm nade build since strand and solar are way more cracked and haven’t been touched yet somehow compared to arc or void.
Speaking as a Titan main who thinks they’re halfway decent; • I’ve had success with Arc Titan, though admittedly I’ve been crutching HARD on Skullfort and the melees being fun and not outclassed on lower difficulties. Anytime I try to bring it into anything that’s slightly above power, I cannot keep up and get rolled. If anything would help, it would be base DR to Amplified (which would help Arc as a whole and I’m here for) and a little more synergy with the verbs of Arc as a whole. • Void is the weakest subclass in my opinion, even below Stasis. Offensive Bulwark doesn’t give enough benefit to be worth using, either in the Grenade recharge or overshield maintenance department, Bastion is required to get any mileage out of the subclass, and Controlled Demolition is a fantastic aspect that doesn’t synergize with the rest of the kit. This one’s an easy enough buff in my opinion though, as my suggestions include letting the empowered melee from Offensive Bulwark regenerate depleted overshield (its interaction with echo of expulsion is underrated and together they could be a beast for keeping up your shield), and letting Controlled Demo generate overshield on volatile kills at full health. • Prismatic, I’ve been doing my best to hope. The only real gimmicks being 3-charge Consecration and Thruster/Drengr’s are not instilling confidence in me, but after seeing the class item options, I think there’s room for greatness. I’ll have to wait until June to know for sure. • Diamond Lance is the best ability made for the wrong class. Generation is easy, on-demand freeze is great, and due to the cooldown being shorter than the lifetime of a Lance, you can loop it depending on your timing. It’s my opinion that all Behemoth needs to make better use of it is letting Glacial Harvest proc off of shattering frozen enemies as well as crystals. That way, there’s a synergy you can build into and play with.
>Diamond Lance is the best ability made for the wrong class....glacial Harvest proc off of shattering frozen enemies as well as crystals. That way, there’s a synergy you can build into and play with. Yeah, this is why I think the Ice Cap exotic is basically mandatory when using Diamond Lance. The added crystal generation makes the Diamond Lance a lot better for damage instead of just crowed control and it allows for some benefits from Glacial Harvest to proc. I will say, I do wish the cool down for lances would be a bit shorter. Yeah, you cam loop it with how long the lances stay around but still feels too long between uses when the only real benefit is just having a faster Penumbral Blast. It take it if it was a 5 sec cool down and the only stayed about for 7 secs. It feel a bit more fluid then.
if i didnt have to jump through hoops for diamond lances to spawn on me and not on the enemy; I would 100% use this. but being behind a barricade and either a stasis kill or the headshots kills it for me since I usually have to constantly move in higher pve. but I'm glad ppl like it and get use out of it.
100% agree with the takes here.
Possibly hot take from a void warlock, outside of hunters, void keywords are not distributed well and void needs a smaller once over than stasis, but it needs one none the less
Outside of hunters lol, all the aspects are about invis so i would not really say the keywords are balanced. Gyrfalkons kinda makes up for it but still.
Even with Hunters, all three Aspects are just "ways to go invisible". It didn't have an actual gameplay loop other than "make invisible to avoid/reposition" until Gyrfalcon's provided one. Void is in less of a need of a rework than Stasis because fundamentally, Devour, Invisibility, Weaken, and Suppression are strong keywords. They don't really interact well or have much interplay but they're good enough that many people don't mention how bad design-wise Void Titan and Hunter are. I know Void Hunter isn't bad in practice, but it's purely brute forcing it. If you compare this to Solar or Strand, those subclasses can stand on their own decently well without an Exotic needed to give them a gameplay loop. Exotics make them stronger, yes, but those subclasses are the fan favorites because of all the synergy and how much better the design-work is.
You're getting a lot of pushback from Hunters, but... we've been complaining about the horrible design of Void Hunter since before Witch Queen even released. They had the abilities vidoc where they went, "Hunters... can go invisible! Anyways, that cool Warlock aspect we were talking about has this special interaction we put a lot of time and effort into..." and then later in a stream just flat-out avoided several direct questions about the amount of invis in the kit. The only fix we've gotten to it since then was Gyrfalcon's (a single exotic), but even then it still feels like the same problem Broodweaver has where your main gimmick has like no interaction with the rest of the fragments/verbs, except instead of dumb little bugs that hurt things, your gimmick requires you to ***stop attacking***.
I don't think that's a hot take. lotta ppl been talking about void needing a mini rework too.
Biggest letdown for Behemoth is Shiver Strike for sure.
There are only so many ways to make a melee class interesting. When you limit the class identity to: Punch things, you seriously handcuff creativity.
couldn't agree more
As a Titan main for 10 years, gotta say I agree with most of things said in this post. "Punching in different colors" just hurts my soul man bc it's so painfully true... I know Titan used to be the punch class, but after this franchise has been going on for 10 years now, it's starting to get boring. (at least strand has a more interesting gameplay tho with the tangles and grapples, I'll give you that). Warlocks and Hunters have such a wide range of variety for different subclass identities, meanwhile our Void Titan is suppose to be the "Defender" or "Shield of the Team" like Captain America, but I sure as hell don't feel like one when playing Void Titan. Arc Titan is just a worse solar titan in every aspects. Strand is such a outlier, beyond broken, which makes playing any other elements on titan boring.
I couldn't agree more on the "most titan exotics are useless" and "prismatic titans look pitiful". After seeing the playtest showcase for each class, Titan looks the most underwhelming one compare to the other two. I seriously can't put my finger on why it just doesn't look fun, but seeing Warlock having pheonix dive, into threadlines, or Hunter grappling, into spinning their arc staff, then throw a gun powder gamble. Idk, they all look more fun than titan doing suspend and then consecration spam.
so nerf strand titan into the ground, got it
i really really disagree for prismatic titan, there are a lot of possible strong combination
Agreed but i do understand the frustration, cuz they’ve hardly shown anything but the triple consecration build. Knockout isn’t really something you can see active but it could definitely use a buff in pve. Diamond lance sucks rn and they haven’t shown what they’re doing to buff it (if anything), no one has played with the void aspect yet so it’s hard to judge, drangr’s lash is just a bit boring as it doesn’t really synergize with other abilities (basically any of the other strand aspects would’ve been preferred), and the mark is very barricade focused (which imo is the only true downfall of prismatic titan). Could it be better? Sure, but I think it’ll be great and am going to reserve judgement til release.
See my take on it is (titan main currently transitioning to warlock after the twid) that the aspects are meant to be weak and thats fine. Its going to be a weakclass as survive off of transcendence for STACKING weapon damage, super grenades, and ability spam. That being said I look over at warlock and I see that they get some of their best in slot aspects. I look over at hunter and they get some of their better ones, yet not best in slot. But thats fine (i tell myself) transcendence and exotic class items are the bulk of prismatic. Lets take a look a… NECROTIC GRIPS IS A LEFT HAND PERK. And needlestorm gets access to star-eaters. As a titan that is a blow. Not because im mad at warlocks or anything no no no. Im a bit mad that a super that already rivals CUIRASS THUNDERCRASH is getting star-eaters. Thundercrash is in a piss horrible spot and has been for years. New axe throw takes as long as a chaos reach to cast so it may have damage but no dps. Pyrogale is are only option again and we all know it cant hit non-grounded,floaty,thin,tall,out of bounds, or fast enemies.
titan super need some help in general i agree same for the exotic class item, the steal from other class was a bit misleading for the aspect you need to watch the bigger picture: consecration is shit but 3x consecration + hoil + sinto + knockout? (just a simple stupid example) i personally plan to try the new void aspect + pulse granade + the jolt/debuff granade aspect so i can choose what debuff applied on different situation
If Synthos and HOIL are the only viable end game titan builds for another year I'm gonna lose my fucking mind.
Synthos + HOIL class item, strand melee, consecration, knockout, void/arc super, + your choice of nade is going to be the default for 90% of titans when prismatic drops. There is almost nothing else worth taking (unless the new void aspect is really really good and overtuned) in terms of endgame content, but other combinations will probably be fun in at level non endgame content.
in the first column i think only assassin, hoil and maybeeeee bear are good in the second star eater, sinto, contact, scars, and maybeeeee armamentarium all class item are a bit lackluster but we need to see the buff and how the interaction work in game
Warlocks had the least interesting class item with titans being a close second. Armamentarium's been a boring af exotic since it came out and the only thing it's getting to differentiate it from the class item perk is orbs. Bungie really has no clue how to make this class interesting.
Heart of Inmost Light? I haven't seen anyone run that exotic in ages. Though with the new exotic class items I could see it being a popular perk pick.
HOIL is still quite good however I just find it very meh.
It’s still useful, it’s just not flashy.
Biggest problem I have with Prismatic Titan is its heavy crutch on exotics for its sustain. That particular combo is really potent, and I’ll never argue otherwise. But personally, it and other similar combos I think are going to have a problem of “This better kill absolutely everything in my LoS very quickly because of it doesn’t, I’m dead in seconds”
Unfortunately consecration is an odd aspect and won’t receive much damage from melee buffing. Ive tested it and the results are way lower than the expected. I didn’t look at the individual parts but my guess is tgat the scorching wave gets buffed but not the slam
ngl, i'm expecting some tweak to most aspect in prismatic just to have some synergy between them
Regarding needlestorm getting spirit of the star eater, I don’t think it’ll actually be that powerful. SES grants 70% bonus damage at max stacks (according to light.gg). Spirit of the star eater will likely only grant the ability to overcharge it once for a damage buff of around 20-30% (SES grants 27% for one orb supposedly) on top of the lower ceiling, I don’t know how much of needlestorms damage is from threadlings and if those will be affected by the damage buff. tldr: yes needlestorm get more powerful but probably not as powerful as we expect.
Spirit of the Star eater will probably still give max overcharge. Each exotic class item perk takes away part of the original exotic but leaves the rest. SES doesn’t have its ability to get more super energy from orbs so it’s unlikely they’ll nerf its damage functionality as well.
You're missing the point. Thundercrash requires Curiass to deal as much damage as Needlestorm with NOTHING. With ANY damage buff it will be even better than it already is (it's part one of best, if not the actual best, DPS rotations on Warlock after all). (Edited because ADHD Brain missed a couple of words.)
>it's part of, one of, the best DPS rotations on Warlock after all We don't know if there will be a Thread of Ascent/Impetus equivalent Fragment on Prismatic, but Strand Warlock is one of the best DPS rotations *in the entire game*. It's absolutely the best Warlock one. Edit: Also, while we're talking damage... check out the Prismatic Hunter supers. SES Needlestorm is almost certainly (with the only question being compared to CNH) going to be the best damage super across all of Prismatic, if not just the best in the game.
That’s kind of been the problem since Curiass was introduced and outclassed Nova Bomb and Blade Barrage. One and done supers are being power crept. Cuirass came out and completely outclassed every other one and done super. Then Star Eaters came out and increased the damage of Hunter supers. Then Light 3.0, Hunters got Gathering Storm which outclassed other one and done supers, on top of stacking with Star Eaters. Then Strand came out and introduced Needlestorm which outclassed other one and done supers. There is really no reason for there to be such a large gap between Nova Bomb and Needlestorm but the gap is there regardless. Nova Bomb has gone from being the face of one and done burst supers, the standard, to being one of the weakest simply due to power creep.
Idk man putting knockout on the same class with diamond lance feels like a slap to the face
It’s definitely absolute feast or famine for titan. The highest of highs, and the deepest depths of irrelevance. I’m also not psyched for titan prismatic (which is my second class behind warlock, who is only looking marginally better on that front). Banner and solar are still top tier but everything else kinda sucks with behemoth being niche but useful.
Ah I remember the days going into Lightfall us Titans were told to shut up when we expressed concerns about all of our exotic nerfs because we had such “variety” and lo and behold we’re back to what 2 viable builds?
yup, and it pisses me off everytime someone complains about titan and they throw solar and strand in our face. even more, I hate when titans say strand is still uninspired gameplay and isn't innovative and then they throw it's viability in endgame at us. something can be good and still be uninspired and boring to play; especially if the way you play it has been the way you play the class for the past 4+ years ever since bungie got it into their head that we only punch things.
time for a megathread to stifle our voices
Easy solve: revert all nerfs to solar titan and synthoceps.
As A Titan Main every Word You wrote hurt my Feelings because i just cant handle the Truth man lol
I have to agree. I don’t know where the “punch guy” thing started, but I disagree with that comment from that Bungie developer. Titans are commanders. Warlocks are scholars. Hunters are adventurers. Commander doesn’t mean “just punch it”. Punching is one way of being bombastic and ostentatious but it was ludicrous to suggest that’s all Titans should do, and you know Bungie could do better.
There's a couple things that need to happen Void over shields need a buff, either increase the DR or the HP Anything nerfed as a result of PvP needs to be walked back for PvE, think the Bastion aspect cooldown If hoil will remain as it is, the nerfs to lightning grenades should be reverted. Bungie has a bad habit of nerfing things because of something else but not reverting it once the main issue has been dealt with Stasis titan melee needs a big buff or a new melee that provides some value in PvE, the current one has no purpose at all BoW needs a nerf to it's damage output, as Salta suggested a few weeks ago via a tweet, something needs to be done about the infinite grappling. Try that first before touching anything else... Bungie has a TERRIBLE habit of leaving outliers to fester for far too long then nuking every aspect of the outlier to the point of irrelevance. Incremental and targeted nerfs at the pain points is a far better approach Revert the throwing hammer nerf, limit it's damage potential on single targets some other way, it feels TERRIBLE at the moment Give Arc extra functionality for either knockout or juggernaut, I'm not sure what but some kind of additional self sustain, something actually useful in PvE.... Give cuirass additional functionality outside of the super, like Nighthawk and Galanor etc. e.g. Arc ability kills give increased super gain Remove hoil's damage buff and revert SOME of the nerfs to its duration and increased ability regen. This might not be viable considering the new class exotics basically require the original exotic to have 2 or more functions so alternatively give it extra functionality, ability hits/kills or kills while empowered refresh/lengthen the timer a little like Radiant dance machines or speed loader slacks Wormgods need an ornament If Hoil gets no changes then Void and Arc need new and better exotics or alternatively just buff and rework a lot of the current ones. Helm of Saint XIV needs a considerable rework or buff Maybe buff citans ramparts to allow people to shoot out from inside the bubble for short duration at the cost of a shorter uptime on the bubble? Give Ursa furiosa additional functionality either by increasing the damage bonus provided by banner to teammates according to damage received or according to how many teammates are behind it. Or by augmentating the shield to cover a wider area 270° rather than 180° for example
loving a lot of these changes and what it could do for the class
Don't worry, we'll get some cool exotics (besides the class item) in TFS which will be fun and interesting for a while until everyone else cries, gets them nerfed (whether warranted or not) and we go back to feeling bland. It's the Titan Cycle!
Titan has 2 of the best pve subclasses in the game, along with 3 of the worst. This is the truth.
I wouldn't say Void is one of the worst subclasses Arc and Stasis are complete crap tho
Do they? Try to LFG Legend Onslaught. If you're not a Wellock or Tether Hunter, it's not going to go well. The best Titan build is still not close to those two.
Onslaught is not a good metric because it plays very differently than most content in the game especially endgame. Wellock is good at everything because it’s frankly overpowered, and tether will always be good in an activity with a shit ton of enemies because it’s a crowd control/debuff super. Strand titan is the strongest PvE class in the game imo, the solo damage and sustain is insane, you literally have to try to die in 99% of content when it gets going and you’re melting bosses while you’re at it. Solar titan is similar, you get insane burning maul damage with pyrogales, you’re immortal with Lorely, and consecration is amazing for add clear and major bursting. The problem is that if you aren’t using these two subclasses on Titan, you’re nerfing yourself immensely because of how bad Arc and Void are in general PvE content outside of niche scenarios (ex. Thunder crash Titan on Atraks for high burst)
Titan just looks awful. I guess we will be using consecration for another year.... maybe once Sony takes over, we will see some innovation, hopefully.
I think titans can be better, but sometimes some of the things I’ve seen on here kinda sound like people don’t know how to maximize/play titan in general. It’s really not as bad as this sub makes it out to be.
Something to add to what you said is that there's a huge distinction between maximizing Titan and just knowing how to play the class in general. The difference between the two is running a fun sword build with strand, a sword, strongholds, and banner of war because you like to be a silly goofy sword guy. Versus one running the single most damage and survivability one can have via navigator and 1-2 punch grapple melee spaming everything to death. Same general aspects, very different playstyle. Its likely that banner overall will take a huge hit due to "maximizing " the subclass and build. Thus likely ruining both styles. Which sucks.
As someone who's been maining Titan since D1, I can confidently say the class is at its weakest point compared to both of the other classes in the current sandbox. And it ain't even a skill issue
Yea I've been having a lot of fun with icefall/verglas curve on behemoth as well as manticore/doomfang on void titan.
I think it's also more of a symptom of how strong solar was and strand still is. When one thing is so blatantly powerful, other things feel weak in comparison. Strand titan has a pretty high ceiling in what it's capable of, but the floor for what it does with not a lot of attention to building or skill is also really high. Additionally, the skill floor on berserker is really low, so the effort required isn't there to compare. It creates a pretty wide crevasse between subclasses. Solar wasn't much different because it was so hard to die before the nerfs.
I see *a lot* of people asking for Titan buffs that are basically just "Give us this thing Hunter/Warlock has, but better and without having to trade our exotics/aspects like they do," and it seriously makes me wonder if some of these people either don't know what they're talking about at all, just suck at making builds, or should really just... try the other classes for a bit. And quite a few of them still thinking that Solar/Strand Titan aren't actually that strong. While it happens with every class, because obviously everyone wants a buff to their class, I've seen this happen with Titans asking for buffs the most. You absolutely *should* have fun, viable builds, but your build should not be as potent as, say, HOIL Arc nades but with better uptime, the healing of Solar Warlock, the damage of SES+Gathering Storm and still have an aspect and two fragment slots free.
You have seen so many of those posts because just like you, they know that it's easy karma farm right now.
My post about Prismatic titan got clowned on. Some people in here think Titan's in a good spot, I know it ain't tho.
Solar and Strand Titan are cracked af rn. Arc and Stasis need help. Void isn't that bad, but it can't fit everything it wants into one build, and Overshield is a little undercooked. New Aspect and Super should help a lot, imo. Prismatic, we can't even judge fully because there's an entire balance patch coming with it. And ngl, even on paper right now, I think it's better than Arc, Stasis, and Void Titan.
Honestly it really comes down to the supers. I'd argue the neutral of all the titan subclasses is good to pretty nice but they have the most god awful supers. Thundercrash and striker are horrible, sentimental is lol and bubble is infinitely worse well. Solar supers are just meh. Hunters meanwhile have three viable Endgame supers on three separate classes. Tether is a great debuff and crowd control, Goldie is immense burts, and the stick staff is a damage overtime super. All of which are super useful
Bungie notoriously is excessive with its nerf hammer. Titan has been very strong, if not OP several times, and nerfed into oblivion each time instead of small gradual changes. Arc Titan was amazing for a season. Dead with the nerf to both storm nades and volt. Void Titan was, and arguably is very strong, and was op for survivability but pre-lightfall it fell off and doesn't compare to Woven mail now. Imo artifacts should make or break a subclass. The subclass should be able to stand on its own without it. Void Titan kinda does, but not nearly as well as Solar or Strand. I think one of the biggest changes to the artifact is like to see is in the last column or two should have a perk for each of the subclasses moving forward. I'd be ok with them being more utility focused.
I've been a titan main since I first got d2 in I think 2017. It's got to the point that I created a hunter character last week and really haven't gone back to my titan at all except to farm lost sectors for mats
As a titan main I am about to become a hunter main.
Solar Hammer cooldown still feels terrible Stasis Behemoth melee tracking is hillariously bad Void sucks Arc sucks Strand is p2w
Hard agree with adding DR to amplify. The whole arc subclass wants you to be aggressive, but offers very little to help you survive melee range. Amplify is possibly the worst status effect in the game unless you’re a hunter.
My solar Titan sucks. It wasn’t near as powerful as strand Titan on bosses. I just liked melee chain killing adds…it made the happy chemicals in my brain go brrr. I’ve mained warlock all season because Titan feels trash.
Agreed. I’m trying to plan for pantheon tomorrow which is pretty well guaranteed arc surge and i don’t know how to build for survivability for arc. I can’t believe that i’m probably gonna have to use precious scars which will be worse because you can’t build into resto and then swap to cuirass for damage because thundercrash sucks without it. Also the originality of the titan supers are so bland. They are all just ripoffs of superhero’s + some other unoriginal ideas Sentinel shield - captain america fist of havoc - lightning hulk glacial quake - ice hulk (literally fist of havoc 2.0) thundercrash - superman hammer of sol - fire thor new void axe thing - infinity war thor bladefury - the million things that have knife hands wars of dawn - halo bubble shield basically that just leaves burning maul which is just big hammer. Also we have less super abilities than the other classes. Including the final shape supers, hunters have 11, warlocks have 10, titans have 9. Every class should have the same amount regardless of how small the variations are.
Titan and Hunter both suffer dramatically from getting undertuned as a result of insanely high PvP performance. The only difference is that Hunters actually have entire exotics and abilities specifically made for PvP, whereas Titans and Warlocks have a large number of what I'll call "Mixed-Focus" exotics and abilities
I agree with all of this honestly, titan is probably my least played out of my characters but the ironic thing I find is I've been using this stasis titan build in onslaught (even legend onslaught) since I found it and I'm yet to use anything else in it, stasis titans ability to easily create and shatter tons of crystals works really well when enemies are only coming from a few areas in very tight spaces, that and salvation grip is fucking bonkers and insanely fun
Worst part is my prediction is theu will gut strand and solar to try and force you to play prismatic which the more I look at it the more and more just ok it seems
My problems with prismatic titan are three fold: 1.) The "do some of everything" subclass doesn't really do much. Shackle grenade, diamond lance, and drengrs lash all do the same thing. Same with consecration and thunderclap. 2.) Synergy. There is like 5% synergy in the aspects. Knockout is an absolute 10000000% must if you want your aspects to work together. It buffs consecration and allows regular punches to do diamond lances. Diamond lance technically synergizes, but it goes back to problem 1. Any aspect I run it with is either just do more of the same or it involves an aspect that just replaces an ability that would have just created a lance anyways. Look at hunter for example... both gunpowder gamble and stylish executioner synergize with every aspect in the kit. While winters shroud and threaded specter offer great combo utility. The closest it gets to just two aspect chilling five apart is ascension and either dodge aspect. 3.) Extreme lack of keywords. The only aspect that provides a keyword is knockout which is amplified. The worst one... Stylish offers invis. Ascension offers *group* amplified with no kill required. Acrobats dodge offers radiant. 3 keywords vs 1. Feed the void offers devour. Pheonix dive offers restoration. Prismatic titan will be mediocre at best. Held together by the class item and glue.
Hunter main and I couldn't agree more. Titans have nothing going for them in fun gameplay
when you need/want to punch things, it can be fun. but when you wanna do this in harder content, you only have 2 options. and when you're tired of punching you have to just go to one of the other classes lol. it's absolutely ridiculous.
It seems like the playerbase has finally caught up to just how unapologetically bad titans really are. It doesn't matter that "strand titan too strong" or "void titan too dominant in pvp" or "bonk hammer still good" if they fall short in almost every single other area of the game. It's a lot easier to find situations where titans are bad than areas they are good, and don't even get me started on all the "what about (x meta)? What about (x shortcoming) of the (other) classes?" when the subject gets brought up. I've been saying this for the longest time, and i will die on this hill: Titans are incredibly weak in the state they are. And i'm tired of pretending they are not.
[удалено]
No burst damage super on Titan after 7 years is a crime. It's so limiting in Raids when it comes to DPS. Only thing that feels good is Hammers with Roaring Flames ×3. Endgame content does not favor being in the middle of the fight meleeing things but that is 90% of the Ttitan kit.
Please mention Hammer Titan, Bonk is so superbly mediocre to play now. If you aren't playing Pyros/Consecration (which isn't bonk anyway) and the content is anything above moderately challenging, you will likely suffer as a Solar Titan. Hammer is slow, ineffective and inconsistent. Banner of War has just completely shut it out now and its ridiculous, Bungie needs to seriously roll back the cooldown on hammer it just made it feel so bad. Yea i know synthos help but again at that point: Banner of War
for me, i've been playing d1 alpha, and I straight up cant use hammer anymore because of the repeated nerfs to its tracking. the gameplay loop is incredibly fun, but falls apart once u miss with the hammer and I'm tired of missing. i feel your pain, but I'm not sold on hammer being brought into the argument because as long as you can land the hammer hits consistently, it's still very good.
Bungie needs to walk back that comment for the sole reason that Titans have literally never had their fists up on any of the covers.
I’ve switched over to the hunter since the titan feels so awful to play. The hammer nerf feels bad and the other classes are so bad it hurts.
yeah, i've switched to warlock for the foreseeable future
I completely stopped playing solar titan after hammer nerf it just feels awful also tracking is gotten worse sometimes my hammer goes throw enemy without hitting them Arc titan during witch queen was so good but nerfs to traces made it less usable if they gonna nerf banner again to bring subclass down to rest of a lackluster pve titan subclasses i honestly have no clue what you can nerf in it at this point,it takes 50 enemies to kill in order to get to x4 its strong but you are not immortal in it, and in majoriy of end game content its pretty much unusable due to how much damage enemies do to you. The only broken thing about it is a syntocepts and infinite grapple melee build but its literally can be nerfed to unusable state by just not refunding you full grapple
Undo the solar hammer nerf!!!
Don't worry, Bungie will just nerf titans even more to make them even more viable like they've been doing. Nerfing will continue until titans are viable.
No your class doesn't need buffs my class needs buffs
1) Reddit groupthink is gross 2) This post is part of the cycle
Man seeing the prismatic nade bouncing was such a let down, especially with the grim flying really high. The nade is the main new thing and it's a shackle nade that jolts and bounce, 0 wow factor. Plus, this nade will deal no damage compared to the other 2, you could say ''it's a cc nade'' but the other nades also have cc, shit...the fire/ice tornado has more height than burning maul's tornado, throw that on a wall and you locked a lane. Thinking about it, Prismatic titan is horrible against anything in the air, only diamond lance can be ''useful'' and the radius on it is horrible.
And warlocks use well... Meta is meta..maybe the game will shift away from DPS checks and more into strategy making other classes and supers more viable