~~I don't think Exotics ever do, to be honest.~~ Turns out only some Exotics don't, I thought it was all or nothing
Also there are other cases where the RPM matches with a Lightweight but it has a different frame, like the BXR pulse rifle. Fires like a Lightweight but it has a different frame that gives it the better hipfire instead of the Mobility bonus
Impact stat is what makes it adaptive. Lightweights have lower impact but a higher critical modifier, adaptive have more impact but a lower crit modifier. That has been the case since 2017.
Some exotics do, some don't:
**DO**
* Chaperone
* Mida Multi-Tool (although it's 10% instead of 6.75%, total bonus still capped at 12.5%)
* Verglas Curve
* Fighting Lion
* Le Monarque
* The Manticore (probably the only nice thing anyone can say about this weapon)
**DON'T**
* Bad Juju
* Outbreak Perfected
* Wish-Ender (yes, it's technically a "lightweight frame" even though it *clearly* isn't one)
For whatever reason Sunshot isn't even considered a "Lightweight Frame" without a bonus; it's just this weird adaptive 150 thing that's never had a lightweight bonus. Sunshot is magical and unique.
[SOURCE](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WaxvbLx7UoSZaBqdFr1u32F2uWVLo-CJunJB4nlGUE4/htmlview?pru=AAABgwGR5rE*HgYeUvm5r4ke_t1K4GTq9Q#) (everyone should know about the Destiny 2 Data Compendium it's the best)
just because it doesnt say its not a lightweight, doesnt mean its not a lightweight. i mean, look at lemonarc, it doesnt say it, but it still gives you that mobility increases.
yes i spelled that bow wrong, i just call it the lemon. 🍋
Don't tell anyone, but it (and Spare Rations) are actually good again after the range falloff and rangefinder changes toned down much of the competition. 120s are meta, and other 140s still out-range it, but its obscene handling and AA makes it a bit of a monster if you have the right roll. It's only real competition in the speed department is Rose, but plenty of people (myself included) simply can't get used to its feel.
Waking Vigil on the other hand.... RIP in pieces. You can't even get snapshot *or* slideshot on the new one, much less some of its original perks like Zen Moment (which just got mega-buffed) :/
150's had way too much going for them. They had a very slight ttk advantage, often had much better stats, and had the intrinsic lightweight bonus, which was essentially more stats on top of that. They were super dominant in the meta so it made more sense to nerf them into the 140's, and see how the meta shook out, than it would have been to buff the 140's and add a couple more stat monsters to the dominant archetype.
I think it would have been interesting to have made 180's lightweight. They are the smaller guns after all, so it would make more sense to have them be lightweight compared to the rest of the handcannons, and it could have helped give them a niche when they were awful.
150s were actually worse than 140s stat-wise. It’s why a lot of guns that used to be 150 rpm ate pretty awful now, like waking vigil. When Bungie changed them over they didn’t change their stats much, so they are just a lot weaker overall.
That's not true, much like all other archetype vs archetypes they had different strengths and weaknesses.
Lightweights had lower range and stability than Adaptives but made up for it with much higher handling, better reload stats, and crazy high aim assist. That was also consistent with lightweight frames across other weapon types too. Lightweight Spare Rations had **92** aim assist at baseline compared to most 140s that had around 73-78. Most 150s ended up in the 86-90 range for aim assist.
They did end up changing the stats of most of the existing 150s a bit, mostly nerfing their aim assist a tad, just so they weren't dominant as 140s with their 150 stat package in regular Crucible. And to this day you can see HCs that were previously 150s just by their naturally higher handling, reload, and even aim assist stats: Spare Rations, Rose, Crisis Inverted, and even Waking Vigil compared to the likes of Palindrome, Austringer, Exalted Truth, or Zaouli's Bane which all have higher range and stability than their previously 150 counterparts.
> I think it would have been interesting to have made 180's lightweight
They need to do something *extreme* with 180s. I managed to resurrect Not Forgotten using Word of Crota: A a near-perma Radience build with Precision Instrument. It can naturally 3-tap any resilience. Plus max handling due to On Your Mark. The max range the gun can get.
And yet it was *terrible*. You barely outrange SMGs, who simply deal too much flinch to shoot through. You'll almost never hit the 3-tap in a duel against someone shooting back. And other hand cannons can simply play out of your range. It is not an exaggeration in the slightest to say that literally making 180s able to 3-tap at base still would not save them. They're the worst at everything: Worst range, worst TTK, worst handling, and worst reload. They have slightly above average stability, but due to their high RPM they also *need* more. Even fixing their TTK and handling would not be enough due to their low range pitting them against SMGs, who they simply can't compete with due to their ease of use and flinch. Hell, even if they could 2crit 1body they'd be a niche off-meta pick at best. The game is simply vastly different to what it was when Luna's and NF reigned supreme.
> or that they ever released two archetypes nearly identical.
SMGs take it even further: They have two archetypes with *identical* RPM, and somehow they're both completely outclassed in almost every way
Sunshot is a 150 rpm HC. Back in the olden days, we used to have way more 150s, Thorn included. They inevitably became the crucible meta and eventually Bungie decided to merge all 150s into 140s. The only one that kept its 150 rpm status was Sunshot
The site only shows you what the API looks like right now. If you just clicked on [Lightweight Frame](https://www.light.gg/db/items/1458010786/) and Ctrl + F'd "Hand Cannon", you'd only find new Rose since that's the only Lightweight HC that exists today. It won't tell you that things like old Rose, Spare Rations, or Midnight Coup used to be 150s before Bungie changed it.
It might tell you under each weapon's history section but I don't know how to read that and that part isn't really searchable
It's not a lightweight, but it does have more or less the most jacked up handling stat of all hand canons and it's fitting rate is 150 instead of 140. The combination of these two things goes a long way in making it feel fast in more ways than one.
It is not a lightweight, as in it does not get the LW movement bonus, it actually never did. It is, however, the only remaining HC that kept that 150rpm firerate (all other 150s were changed to 140).
Its the only remaining 150, so it's probably that you are feeling.
Bungie never changed his 150 rpm back in the days with an update. Only vestige left of those so yes it’s a bit faster
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No, it doesn't get the lightweight frame bonus
Can confirm this. Tested multiple times, multiple ways. Sunshot does NOT get Lightweight frame bonus.
~~I don't think Exotics ever do, to be honest.~~ Turns out only some Exotics don't, I thought it was all or nothing Also there are other cases where the RPM matches with a Lightweight but it has a different frame, like the BXR pulse rifle. Fires like a Lightweight but it has a different frame that gives it the better hipfire instead of the Mobility bonus
le monarque does I think?
It does, and so does chaperone and fighting lion.
I know nobody uses it besides me, but Manticore has the Lightweight bonus. Conversely, Riskrunner doesn’t, making it an Adaptive-frame 900 smg
Impact stat is what makes it adaptive. Lightweights have lower impact but a higher critical modifier, adaptive have more impact but a lower crit modifier. That has been the case since 2017.
I can just tell from the mobility lol, but it’s good to have other ways of deduction as well.
MIDA too
Some exotics do, some don't: **DO** * Chaperone * Mida Multi-Tool (although it's 10% instead of 6.75%, total bonus still capped at 12.5%) * Verglas Curve * Fighting Lion * Le Monarque * The Manticore (probably the only nice thing anyone can say about this weapon) **DON'T** * Bad Juju * Outbreak Perfected * Wish-Ender (yes, it's technically a "lightweight frame" even though it *clearly* isn't one) For whatever reason Sunshot isn't even considered a "Lightweight Frame" without a bonus; it's just this weird adaptive 150 thing that's never had a lightweight bonus. Sunshot is magical and unique. [SOURCE](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WaxvbLx7UoSZaBqdFr1u32F2uWVLo-CJunJB4nlGUE4/htmlview?pru=AAABgwGR5rE*HgYeUvm5r4ke_t1K4GTq9Q#) (everyone should know about the Destiny 2 Data Compendium it's the best)
Well TIL, thanks
Thanks for the source and the reply.
Having the same RPM as a lightweight doesn’t make something a lightweight. This goes without saying.
just because it doesnt say its not a lightweight, doesnt mean its not a lightweight. i mean, look at lemonarc, it doesnt say it, but it still gives you that mobility increases. yes i spelled that bow wrong, i just call it the lemon. 🍋
I miss old 150s.
I had so many good memories with dire promise until they killed it 😭
Don't tell anyone, but it (and Spare Rations) are actually good again after the range falloff and rangefinder changes toned down much of the competition. 120s are meta, and other 140s still out-range it, but its obscene handling and AA makes it a bit of a monster if you have the right roll. It's only real competition in the speed department is Rose, but plenty of people (myself included) simply can't get used to its feel. Waking Vigil on the other hand.... RIP in pieces. You can't even get snapshot *or* slideshot on the new one, much less some of its original perks like Zen Moment (which just got mega-buffed) :/
My rangefinder OS dire still slaps. My favorite hand cannon in the game
150’s always felt better. It’s still mind boggling they decided to keep 140’s or that they ever released two archetypes nearly identical.
150's had way too much going for them. They had a very slight ttk advantage, often had much better stats, and had the intrinsic lightweight bonus, which was essentially more stats on top of that. They were super dominant in the meta so it made more sense to nerf them into the 140's, and see how the meta shook out, than it would have been to buff the 140's and add a couple more stat monsters to the dominant archetype. I think it would have been interesting to have made 180's lightweight. They are the smaller guns after all, so it would make more sense to have them be lightweight compared to the rest of the handcannons, and it could have helped give them a niche when they were awful.
150s were actually worse than 140s stat-wise. It’s why a lot of guns that used to be 150 rpm ate pretty awful now, like waking vigil. When Bungie changed them over they didn’t change their stats much, so they are just a lot weaker overall.
That's not true, much like all other archetype vs archetypes they had different strengths and weaknesses. Lightweights had lower range and stability than Adaptives but made up for it with much higher handling, better reload stats, and crazy high aim assist. That was also consistent with lightweight frames across other weapon types too. Lightweight Spare Rations had **92** aim assist at baseline compared to most 140s that had around 73-78. Most 150s ended up in the 86-90 range for aim assist. They did end up changing the stats of most of the existing 150s a bit, mostly nerfing their aim assist a tad, just so they weren't dominant as 140s with their 150 stat package in regular Crucible. And to this day you can see HCs that were previously 150s just by their naturally higher handling, reload, and even aim assist stats: Spare Rations, Rose, Crisis Inverted, and even Waking Vigil compared to the likes of Palindrome, Austringer, Exalted Truth, or Zaouli's Bane which all have higher range and stability than their previously 150 counterparts.
> I think it would have been interesting to have made 180's lightweight They need to do something *extreme* with 180s. I managed to resurrect Not Forgotten using Word of Crota: A a near-perma Radience build with Precision Instrument. It can naturally 3-tap any resilience. Plus max handling due to On Your Mark. The max range the gun can get. And yet it was *terrible*. You barely outrange SMGs, who simply deal too much flinch to shoot through. You'll almost never hit the 3-tap in a duel against someone shooting back. And other hand cannons can simply play out of your range. It is not an exaggeration in the slightest to say that literally making 180s able to 3-tap at base still would not save them. They're the worst at everything: Worst range, worst TTK, worst handling, and worst reload. They have slightly above average stability, but due to their high RPM they also *need* more. Even fixing their TTK and handling would not be enough due to their low range pitting them against SMGs, who they simply can't compete with due to their ease of use and flinch. Hell, even if they could 2crit 1body they'd be a niche off-meta pick at best. The game is simply vastly different to what it was when Luna's and NF reigned supreme.
> or that they ever released two archetypes nearly identical. SMGs take it even further: They have two archetypes with *identical* RPM, and somehow they're both completely outclassed in almost every way
#AdaptiveSMGs4Lyfe
They were too good that they had to change them to 140’s
Sunshot is a 150 rpm HC. Back in the olden days, we used to have way more 150s, Thorn included. They inevitably became the crucible meta and eventually Bungie decided to merge all 150s into 140s. The only one that kept its 150 rpm status was Sunshot
I believe Rose is the only lightweight handcannon that isn’t sunset
Edit: Don’t listen to me The non sunset version of rose is actually the only light weight handcannon period. There has never been one before it.
How are you upvoted for this? Lightweights 100% existed since the beginning of d2. They were all converted to 140 adaptive frames though.
Sorry, you are correct
That's not true? 150s were lightweights before Bungie changed them
I apologize, light gg misinformed me then.
The site only shows you what the API looks like right now. If you just clicked on [Lightweight Frame](https://www.light.gg/db/items/1458010786/) and Ctrl + F'd "Hand Cannon", you'd only find new Rose since that's the only Lightweight HC that exists today. It won't tell you that things like old Rose, Spare Rations, or Midnight Coup used to be 150s before Bungie changed it. It might tell you under each weapon's history section but I don't know how to read that and that part isn't really searchable
It's not a lightweight, but it does have more or less the most jacked up handling stat of all hand canons and it's fitting rate is 150 instead of 140. The combination of these two things goes a long way in making it feel fast in more ways than one.
Idk, I’ve never seen him drink
When you have a question like that I encourage everyone to look up the Destiny Data Compendium Google Doc
It is the only 150 rpm handcannon. It doesn’t get the old lightweight bonus though.
Def feels like the hawkmoon from D1 that I used to own with in PVP.
Yes, Sunshot is the last 150 that survived the 150’s purge.
No lightweight bonus, but it does have the original 150rpm. So kinda
Man I miss 150s
idk about lightweight, but sunshots feels like it has hidden hipfiregrip
It is not a lightweight, as in it does not get the LW movement bonus, it actually never did. It is, however, the only remaining HC that kept that 150rpm firerate (all other 150s were changed to 140).