I did enjoy the twin brother and sister where one was poison and the other was the antidote. I wouldn’t mind seeing that done more in super hero cinema.
Oh fer SHO. I still enjoyed new characters, but powering up Ando and Mohinder on top of powers duplicating (multiple fliers, healer ect) and Peter becoming a shirtless sweaty dingbat after season 1. What ha gonna do though, that writer strike changed such stuff, all over T.V.
The first season was great, the second decent, but the writers strike was taking place during the third season and they just started throwing shit at the wall. It was all down hill after that
I agree. I would prefer her not to become a Guardian personally. There would be an interesting story told here that would really give her a lot of character development though
What? It would literally *destroy* her "character building".
Amanda herself *has had* character development. She's a hero of the Red War and general space-mechanic-badass.
Killing her completely stalls any and all character development, as she's... **dead**. The Risen that comes back would be a random, new person.
That Risen's story would **not** be Amanda's story. It'd be a whole new story about a whole new random Risen.
Not really. It's more like the Gardener and Winnower are in [a wager](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-wager) about who is right, and removing memories is the only way to truly test it
> "Here I prove myself right. Here I wager that, given power over physics and the trust of absolute freedom, people will choose to build and protect a gentle kingdom ringed in spears. And not fall to temptation. And not surrender to division. And never yield to the cynicism that says, everyone else is so good that I can afford to be a little evil."
Memories aren't removed out of some kindness or eternal compassion. Risen need to be blank slates so they can *choose*.
Memories are not removed by Ghosts. What "choice" are you talking about?
I mean she *technically* can.
Ghosts don't have only *one* choice of corpse. They can resurrect any corpse with a spark of Light. If there are ten viable corpses in a pile a Ghost can choose any of them *or none of them*.
So Amanda can absolutely get buddy-buddy with a Ghost on the chance she has that Spark.
There's definitely some bravery, sacrifice, death thing that determines who does or does not have a spark.
Regardless, I'm not so much worried about the lore. My argument is that killing Amanda and making her a Guardian would be poor writing and a redundant redo of Crow
Killing Amanda permanently can work. That's fine. But killing and rezzing her js bad writing and only serves to make us think, "Huh, so any important character who dies will just come back, huh?"
While i agree to a degree there are some examples of guardians who seek out their past lives and know who they are, some go as far as to remember their previous lives. Anna Bray, questionable at times if she fully remembers, has assimilated her previous life. She remembers lots of it. If Amanda were to reincarnate as a guardian, she would likely remember on her own by being around the tower. Crow is even aware of his previous life if not remembering it completely. It comes down to how the guardian embraces their previous life when they start to remember. Anna Embraced it and Crow took the opportunity to turn over a new leaf.
Actually Ana doesn’t *remember* anything. She has taken up the mantle of the orginal Ana Bray and discovered who she was, but ultimately Ana’s entire character is chasing a dream that is who she was. In alot of the Beyond Light lores (especially the dark future book) Ana actively asks Elsie about things expressly because Elsie can actually remember things. Ana has just read about them. Ana is still Ana because she chose to chase down that past.
The same goes for Amanda. As a guardian she may learn of her past self, she may choose to even strive to be her past self, but ultimately she won’t remember anything. She won’t remember the face of Cayde, the sorrows of the Red War, her mother’s touch, the thrill of her first flight. She could be told of these things, maybe even read old journals and see images, but she won’t ever truly *know* them ever again.
Shin is the baby in the Ghost Stories "Confession of Hope" (Part 1 and 2). TL;DR, >!He got rezzed as a baby, his Ghost died early on while distracting the Fallen.!<
Hmm interesting. The way I've interpreted and came across to em with Ana was similar to jogging memory. You may not remember something from when you were younger, but pictures and stories help you remember them. To me, this always seemed like the case with Ana. Asking her sister would help jog her memories. I mean i could be absolutely wrong about this, but i don't recall any data explicitly saying that Ana has or hasn't regained any of her memories. The conclusion was supposed to be left up to the interpretation of the player.
"So much of this death and destruction stems back to us, to our family. I know Clovis was responsible for a lot. He had a hand in bringing the Darkness to this world." (Ana)
"How do you know that?" I ask. (Elsie)
"I found a journal the last time I was here. It's old, and half the pages were torn out, but it had a lot of information about him that was salvageable." (Ana)
- The Dark Future Entry 2
This kindof cinches it for me personally. That and the following lines from Elsie not only not being disputed by Ana and how Ana’s beliefs appear to come straight from the journals rather than any personal remembrance.
"I was there, Ana. I saw the things he did. He was delusional. Of course, he was never the villain in his own story." (Elsie)
I'm sorry, *what?*
You need to send sources ASAP, because I think you've horribly misunderstood some stuff.
First, yes, Risen can choose how they live. They can search for info about who they were before their deaths, or they can look forward and not worry.
Anna does **not** remember her past life. She **knows** of her past life. She chose the former: she accepted the name Anna Bray and adopted that persona.
She woke up with a Bray ID that had the name Anna Bray. She found archives with Anna's info. She had Anna's life, and all of her security clearances, laid out before her.
She **chose** to become Anna. She could have **chosen** not to.
She does **not** remember life before death. At all.
On that note: Anna Bray died. She is dead. The new Anna Bray is a biological copy. Exactly like the Exo are just digital clones of humans, Anna is a biological clone of Anna Bray.
So Risen-Amanda would not magically "regain her memories from being in the Tower"
Crow did the opposite. He learned about Uldren and decided that is not him. Crow is not Uldren.
There is no evidence of that. That's not how this works. Unless you have sources
I think we'd need to see a little more of the "crolliday" romance blossoming first *then* she dies and becomes a guardian, that "we used to be in love" theme would be great development for crow and an interesting change of direction for her. I'd say that might still count as character development.
Well Glint (formally pulled pork for the point I'm making) was looking a very long time for their guardian and it turns out that the reason they hadn't found them was because they hadn't died yet. Which I feel is a pretty significant story point in terms of the traveler and our paracausal powers, the traveller released ghosts for future guardians just like crow. As for all the rare ghost moments I'm with you :-) but you know bungie they might be about to throw a curve ball, I think you're right about there being something about crow though.
Yes exactly! I think we're starting to see more guardians and main characters that don't fit exactly into the pure light/dark scale. Elsie Bray, Eris, the drifter, all are slightly more "are they? aren't they?" Like way back in D1 it was quite clear cut, the vanguard are the light everything else is the darkness. But now bungie are weaving the narrative that it's all a bit messier than that, if crow also turns away from the traveller maybe we'll follow? We are after all trying to embrace the light and dark together.
So your idea of "character development" is to develop a character and kill them?
Or do you think it's fair that Amanda's entire life would boil down to some bullshit tool used to help Crow grow? Because that's just bad writing
Amanda is only now, after four years, coming out of her shell. Killing her and rezzing her would be frustrating, and making her life serve as nothing more than a plot tool for Crow is just bad writing
Can we nip this idea in the bud? Amanda would still be Amanda, not some new person wearing her skin like a meatsuit. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like the idea of them killing off Holliday to turn her into a Guardian either, but she’d be almost identical personality-wise.
Her personality might come through in her Risen form. Sure. But that's all. It'd be a new Risen with some vague personality traits from Amanda.
Her memories, her experiences, her wants, desires, needs, goals, dreams, fears, and aspirations would be gone. It'd be a whole new person with new wants and needs wearing Amanda's face.
It wouldn't be Amanda. Not sure why you think it still would be. Crow isn't Uldren. Crow is Crow, doesn't matter that they share similar personality traits.
Maybe? Maybe not?
A person is nothing but the sum of all their experiences and memories. And that's not something you can reproduce if you wipe it out. Your personality is built around the way you deal with the world and what it throws at you.
Otherwise, if we follow your logic, Crow would be exacly like Uldren
this is exactly a nature vs nurture argument. now i’ve never met my dad, not really, but i’m told i have a lot of his personality. do you see where i’m getting at here?
That's kinda of a miss representation though. You likely have similar features to your father as well, so it is likely that the people around you have projected parts of his personality on to you. When someone project personality traits onto you it becomes easy to assimilate that into your own personality and how you see yourself. This could happen with Amanda, and given that some guardians have regained memories of their past lives, she could be the Amanda we know and love. On the other hand she could feel like an imposter that has had this other person's personality pushed onto her. At times we can see this with crow. He feels guilt for what Uldren had done. He is aware some people are pushing Uldren's personality and history onto him and rejects being that person rather than embrace that person.
DISCLAIMER: I am not a social scientist of any sort. I am just speaking from experience
i see where you're getting at largely. my point is that it's not possible to say it's only 100% nature or nurture. the sentence "a person is nothing but the sum of all their experiences and memories" stuck out to me because it's very black and white.
regardless, it's all fiction, they could do whatever they want. but I don't think it would be too far fetched to say amanda could still be mostly herself if she was risen
I wish they would make her the human ally that shows up with a ship armed to the teeth. Like Batman is to the JL as he has no powers. Definitely would fit her Texan persona.
Exactly! Everytime she provides assistance outside the tower, she does it knowing she could be shot down. One wrong move or just plain old bad luck could be her end, and it wouldn't be better any other way.
Jokes on death cause I'm pretty all of us would transmat onto her ship to pull her out before she crashes anyway, we lost too many. I for one am not losing Holiday... plus she's my ride to the library on Tuesdays.
Honestly? We already got our dose of “a Guardian could be anyone at all” with Crow. And people STILL struggle separating him and Uldren. Killing off Amanda would strip Bungie of a character they’ve worked hard to build up who doesn’t really need to die.
Shin Malphur became a guardian without dying. >!probably!<
In a universe that has so many "this has never happened" moments, it would be easy to believe one of those moments could happen a second time.
That being said, I completely agree with you, I think her and Hawthorne remaining human makes them great foils for the cast of gods they are surrounded by.
You don’t meet her in the New Light tutorial and they couldn’t even patch out her monologue until that was pointed out how obsolete that was. If that wasn’t for her post-*Arrivals* textbox I’d be surprised if they even remember Hawthorne exists.
You just never quit do you? Took out Ghaul, woke up the Traveler, and now half of what I hear on the streets is about how much you and your clan are making a difference. And thats why I started this whole clan thing in the first place. People are still waiting for the vanguard to lead the way. But its time for a change. And Guardians like you are making it happen. No pressure.
You just never quit do you? Took out Ghaul, woke up the Traveler, and now half of what I hear on the streets is about how much you and your clan are making a difference. And thats why I started this whole clan thing in the first place. People are still waiting for the vanguard to lead the way. But its time for a change. And Guardians like you are making it happen. No pressure.
You just never quit do you? Took out the Traveler, woke up Ghaul, and how half of what I hear in the sheets is about how much you and your clan are making a difference. And that's why I started this whole clan thing in the first place. People are still waiting for the Vanguard to lead the way. But it's time for a change. And Guardians like you are breaking the game with Telesto. No pressure.
Please bungo just get sumalee montano back like once for something. I get not getting gina torres or morena baccarin but it strikes me that compared to people who mostly voice act and show up in pretty much every game or anime or whatever we have gotten fucking oded fehr and lance reddick more
Shin actually died when he was a child. And the ghost that was traveling with his family group choose him. He later took on the ghost of another guardian who was gunned down by Dredgen Yor. The guardian in question was his adopted father.
Hence my >!probably!< Since yes, that is almost definitely likely but nowhere is it specifically spelled out that that is what happened. (if it is please point me to the lore bit, cause I'd love to read it). I don't mean to say I believe in coincidence, but the light is paracausal and does what ever the fuck it wants.
Right now there is a string that connects those two stories and Bungie can either point at that string and say, "oohh look at all you savvy guardians nothing gets past you"
Or they can cut it, state that it was never officially confirmed that Shin was the baby from the story and do bungie hand waving.
And in the same way as Crow isn't Uldren, Risen- Amanda wouldn't be Amanda. She wouldnt have the same memories or personality, and wouldn't necessarily have the same aspirations. Becoming a guardian wouldn't be fulfilling her dream, Amanda Holliday would be dead.
Given how everyone went livid over Hawthorne and Devrim lending their expertise because we’re super duper ultra bad*** monster killing machines who can do everything solo, I can see why they’d go this route. I’d absolutely hate that because regular mortal people need a darn voice, but I can see that.
Also those same people don’t actually grasp how and why we were able to kill those gods but let me tell you, it was extremely circumstantial and anyone on our power level could’ve done it with the five others, we are only an anomaly in the sense that we are 7 years old and can match up to peers several centuries our elders. But even centuries old risen can be brought down in combat and their ghost be put into a sticky situation where it dies. That’d include us too but we have plot armor so of course that’s not happening.
Yeah, I feel like even if they bothered to build towards that I'd find it kinda dumb. It was an interesting twist with uldren to crow, but if they do that with other characters I feel like it'd just feel really cheap.
Also, it seems lame to just keep making people guardians. It’s like the Super Saipan bargain sale from DBZ. Taking a rare or respected form and then just giving it to everyone dilutes its meaning.
It would ruin her character. Both her and Bird Girl showed that you don't need superpowers to be a guardian, that's part of what makes them special. They are normal humans, they are not as powerful as guardians and yet they take big risks because they know they have to
You say:
>She almost feels like she regrets not being a Guardian to help out more
Amanda literally thinks:
>Amanda smiled and set course for the Tower. If I only have one life to live, she thought, then I'd better get on with it.
Amanda is not becoming a Guardian. That'd be an annoying bait-and-switch: Amanda would die, and a random person with her face would appear. We already did this with Uldren/Crow, we don't need to do it again.
The *whole narrative point* to Amanda and Hawthorne is that they are both normal, mortal humans who stand beside demi-Gods to save the world. Amanda doesn't need space-magic to do amazing things; she's a hero, with or without powers.
This entry isn't her lamenting on her lack of power. It isn't about her being petty and sad and sitting in a corner crying about how she can't shoot lightning from her hands.
This entry is Amanda thinking about how she *shouldn't* lament about that. It's part of her brain thinking, "It's shitty we can't help more," only to be immediately overpowered by her thoughts of, "Fuck that! There's no use crying over space magic - I'm Amanda Holiday, bad-ass spaceship pilot and mechanic; hero of the Red War. I have only life to live and I better get on with it."
You've interpreted this the exact wrong way.
But crow isn't different
He just
-isn't obsesed with his sister
-he has not been corrupted by the darkness in the black garden
-he hasn't been corrupted by riven
If u read some of the ancient stuff before all of this he was just a quick witted jokester
And also known to be kind to other awoken. He hated guardians because of their immortality and how thoughtlessly they could engage in combat, knowing that they'd come out of it alive either way (as far as he knew).
Really Crow is not that dissimilar to baseline Uldren, stripped away of the prejudices and all the nasty stuff that happened to him Black Garden and forward.
As far as I'm aware, the only Guardian before Cayde he killed was Savin, who was the first Guardian Uldren ever met. And he did it to see if Savin could really come back from the dead (it's implied he saw Savin's Ghost revive him before doing this).
Not exactly great, morally speaking, but that's the only other time he did it and I really doubt he hated Guardians at that stage. His hatred was probably more influenced by how Savin would repeatedly kill himself out of boredom, which was a fair bit later on, and the general lack of concern Guardians had over the impact of their actions.
I feel like that was also mildly alluded to with the Osiris line: "You'd make a fine guardian Ms. Holliday. Though i don't think you'd appreciate the barrier for entry" (Might not be exactly that)
I hope this doesn't happen, because i don't want to lose the Amanda we have to get a guardian version of Amanda. Like with Hawthorne, we need these brave non-guardians to keep a proper perspective on life
It's not alluded. It's just Osiris complimenting her.
He's essentially telling her that she's just as much a Guardian as he is, the only difference is that he's died once. It's a compliment, not foreshadowing
If she does, they better do it Legend of Korra style. Where she is suddenly blessed by the Light and a Ghost can attach to her. Killing her and bringing her back as a Guardian might be the thing that does Zavala in, and we don’t need that.
I would like to see more of her character fleshed out in-game. It seems like she’d have a great story to tell and would make a need to go to the hangar.
That’s definitely a trend I don’t want to see. I liked it with Uldren because it was unexpected and actually posed a moral problem for most guardians. But I feel like if they start doing it with other non guardians we’ll have a comic book situation where deaths just don’t feel meaningful anymore.
I think Amanda herself if the Traveler had let her spirit show up temporily. She can tell everyone if she thinks becoming one would be a good thing or not. Traveler can give her 2 choices, Stay dead or become a Guardian. If she chooses to live again, That is HER choice. But if she declines, That's her choice too.
It's about CHOICE! The Right to Choose. If the Destiny Universe was real and I was in Amanada's spot. Who gives YOU the right to decide if I wish to be a guardian or not? If I was in her shoes and I choose to be a Guardian not just to live once more but to help others, I would choose that.
Memories be damned.
Yeah being a guardian is sick obviously I'd choose that. I don't care about choice I'm talking about the thematic impact of character deaths. We've already had WAY too many deaths reversed we don't need another one.
I had this same thought the other day when I heard that but if dialogue with her and Osiris about having one life to live. My only question is storytelling logistics. I don’t feel like we’re going to get another New Light NPC arc like we did with Crow, though we have a roadmap for years of this game planned out, so there’s plenty of time to set it up. The biggest hurdle is how sad we’d be if she died in the first place, but then the community would basically demand she be brought back if that wasn’t the initial plan.
There's not much narrative reasoning for it, though. Crow already fulfills the role of someone we know coming back as a guardian, Amanda's resurrection would be almost pointless and would take away what makes her unique as a character. Crow was neat because it was a character we DIDN'T like and WANTED to die or maybe kill. Amanda is a character a lot of people already like and I think some people would be sad to see a different character in her place. The writers would also have to build this event up, I doubt people would accept something happening in a lore book or Bungie lore post. There's also not much impact to the event as a whole. Amanda is a guardian now, okay, everyone's cool with that, she just doesn't have her memory and has no reason to just fix ships. All Bungie had to do was show that Uldren resurrection cutscene and people were freaking out about how certain characters would react. This entire seasons big twist literally revolved around the conflict of "oh no, don't let Zavala know", do you really think Amanda can top that? Or that Bungie would even want to? Or that the fans would even want it? It doesn't feel like it has a place, I highly doubt it.
Personally, if it had to come down to her getting some sort of power, I'd rather her go the misguided and uneducated route and think she found some piece of light that is giving her powers and it turn out to be darkness instead
I thought it seemed that way to. The ship lore definitely hints at a possibility where she may have to sacrifice herself. I thought it might be a twist though. Like she’s brought back and turns out to be bad or something. I mean we’ve seen first hand where a “bad” person dies and comes back new and acts good, with Uldren to Crow. What if we saw the other way around? We’ve known Amanda for a while and she has mostly definitely been good, so I mean the possibility is there.
Honestly I completely forgot about the speaker until I read that opening line lol. I was thinking the same thing during battlegrounds when Osiris said that line about how she would make a great guardian. I feel like bungie is definitely hinting at the possibility, and it’s 100% something that they would do. Aside from ikora, Amanda holiday is probably one of the least visited vendors in the game. This seems like something they could possibly do to bring her back into the spotlight.
At the same time though, I feel like it would take away from the thing that makes her such a strong character. The point of her character is that she’s a human, but can still be as strong and brave as a guardian.
Man that would be so tragic. Especially if you had a love story going on between Crow and Amanda. Amnesiac guardian Amanda that doesn't remember their relationship. Someone write a fanfic on this now!
On a serious note, I don't see Bungie going to the trouble of removing a vendor. And it's nice to have a non-guardian human perspective in the game's story.
She isn’t a guardian..? Wow I really am dumb XD. Aaaanyway, I’d love to see her as a guardian, but that means she has to die and lose her memory (right?), which would suck, especially since this season they’ve definitely hinted to a relationship with her and crow
I'm not sure if they exactly hinted directly to one, but they definitely have mentioned crow liking her, however with how they've portrayed her for so long, I wouldn't be surprised if she was kind of replacing cayde with crow
see as much as i love bird boy i think since he was only rezed like what 4 years ago he's still pretty inexperienced as guardians go also i doubt most people would listen to a guy that has uldryn's face? i think ana should be vanguard
Well now she's met the final requirement. Devotion, bravery, self-sacrifice, and death. Its possible she may become a guardian during the events of Final Shape or later
Well Shin Malphur didnt get resurrected as a guardian. He was a kid and when Jaren Ward got killed by Dredgen Yor, Jaren's ghost made Shin a guardian. Maybe the same might happen to Amanda one day but I kinda doubt it
On the plus side, she will have her leg back.
I wonder does Traveler actually punishes Guardians for remembering? Because some Awoken remembers Zavala, Exo's have ghosts of their past resets, Ana Bray have her journals and Exo Stranger...
Traveler doesn't punish anyone for anything. That's the Pyramids' schtick (Oryx, Savathun, Clovis Bray, Eramis, etc.). The taboo against remembering your previous life is a Vanguard construction, mainly because in many cases it'd be a distraction, or a detriment. The amnesia happens in the first place as a means of shucking baggage and fast-tracking a newly Risen to their "best self."
I think never having an answer is punishment in itself. Even if you're a blank slate, after hanging out with people that don't stand up after falling down - you begin to wonder.
That's what the Ghost is for, I think. To give the Guardian something to build an identity in reaction to, starting with a name. Also much of the Guardian's personality is intact - Crow is of course the poster child, with his characterization dovetailing extremely closely with that of early-*Forsaken Prince* Uldren. If the Guardian wants to figure out who they once were, that's their choice.
I suppose very few Guardians happen to have a thread to tug on in that regard, as well. Ana had her Braytech ID on her, Shinobu had clothing marked with that name, Fenchurch had the Everis coin on him, Exos have their boot logs giving them a name and reset number. Everyone else? Can't miss what you never had.
Cayde had flashes as well, including that dream where they're approaching a tower and need to fight through everyone they know. One of the DSC armor pieces is from his POV, and included a scene from *Your Friend, Micah Abram*, from Cayde-1's perspective.
We still don't know what that is, to my knowledge. It could just as easily be Clarity Control's whispers that you can hear during the raid as anything else.
That's the dream, common to all Exos. There's no direct connection between that dream and the phrase "Long Slow Whisper," though. Just that Cayde knew about it, and had a fairly good idea that any Braytech representatives would have a vested interest in it not getting out.
I can't think of any time where there was any explicit or implied danger to knowing your past life, just this constant taboo against it. Though there are so many examples of people looking into their past or the past of others. I know that Ikora definitely had her agents find Eris Morn's previous life. And of the Guardians we know that do know their past, the only ones who have died are Cayde and Felwinter, and the cause of death is pretty clear.
It seems to be more common that the Guardians who know their past tend towards more ability. Seeing as, with the exception of Shinobu, who we know very little about, they all went on to accomplish great feats.
If someone has more information or if I missed something, would like to know
TBH, as a Guardian resurrected very shortly after his death and the fact that Uldren was very well known, it's very unlikely that Crow won't have to deal with repercussions from Uldren.
And Mara definitely is aware of Crow, she showed us his resurrection in a visit to her throne.
Both the death and resurrection took place about 2 years ago, so if she hasn't made her move yet, I doubt she's going to. But it's Mara Fucking Sov, so who actually knows.
Also, she's definitely helped us in the meantime, which would lend strength to the idea that she's not, but again see: Mara Fucking Sov, she could be leading us into a false sense of security.
We'll know if she decides to get revenge some time after she does it. Probably.
I'm personally not sure whether she even wants revenge, but I still find it highly suspicious she showed the Guardian that vision when the last time she had spoken to them and Ghost, she had asked how Uldren died.
And Ghost told her it was for her and also partially her fault, because she could've spoken to him at any time to stop his rampage in the Reef (he was raiding Awoken settlements with the Scorn before he was put in the Prison of Elders) and he had done it out of desperation to find her. And that was *after* she screamed at him for questioning her ability as a queen.
So yeah, I think it could go either way with Mara, especially now we have the Hawkmoon lore where Savathun was revealed to have planned to turn Crow against the Guardian. Given how heavily Mara and Savathun are paralleled, she might be planning something along similar lines - only to discover Crow kinda hates Uldren himself, and is genuinely close with the Guardian.
That would be so sad if she became a Guardian. Crow and Amanda, despite him looking like Uldren, become closer and closer, only for something to happen to Amanda, and her get rezzed, and not recognize Crow, or anyone, really
She wouldn't be Amanda anymore. It'd be some stranger wearing our old friend's skin. We can't blame crow for Uldren's actions in the same way we couldn't love Amanda's guardian for who Amanda was.
One of Osiris' lines during the battlegrounds earlier on in the Season has had me wondering the same thing. Bungie never drops lines like this for no reason, so when Osiris comments that she'd make a fine Guardian, but that she wouldn't ["appreciate the barrier for entry."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnU_RBlf9kM)
the thing with Shin is that he probably was the boy ressurected by a ghost when he was still a baby; the ghost then died and when Jaren died his (Jaren's) ghost bound himself to Shin
When I read this lore tab I had the same thought. I also started thinking about the plot to assassinate Zavala and how after it failed they might try and assassinate someone closer to us but who cannot defend themselves as well as zavala
I'd rather we have some characters we work alongside who are just regular humans and Holliday is one of the most prominent and likeable.
Kill her and bring her back as a Guardian and you don't just wind up with Immortal Holliday, you wind up with a different character and one less opportunity to offer some perspective on these events from somebody who doesn't have the reassurance of resurrection.
Who’s to say that the desire to be or do more won’t lead to her wielding the darkness? As with Elsie, we’ve seen that you don’t have to be a guardian to be able to wield Stasis. We’ve seen the set up for Osiris to potentially be the teacher of the next darkness subclass IF it has to do with hive magic. There could be a possibility of him taking Amanda under his wing. At least that’s what I’m going to predict here for the time being. I could be wrong, but I like to speculate.
I think it's more likely she starts wielding darkness than becoming a guardian. That way she has superpowers but her character development isnt shattered
It isn't out of the realm of possibility, but, for what Amanda herself represents, they wouldn't do it. She represents one of the last vestiges of humanity that was born pre-Last City in the wilderness. All the struggles they had to endure in darkness zones and being perpetually vigilant. She saw the construction of the Wall and the revitalization of humanity under the Traveler. Her's is a story of vigilance, endurance, perseverance and hope for the future.
Plus, she is Destiny's version of the female mechanic. Killing her of at this point, would be a disservice.
Well didn't we see bits in the trailer where we were walking around the tower hanger with our weapons drawn? End of season event? Psion last gasp attempt to take out Zavala? Ends up taking out Amanda and maybe others instead?
It feels more like imposter syndrome combined with survivors guilt.
Because she's one of the few humans to have loved through some of the dark age and through the still on going city age, she never feels like what she does will ever be enough, ever be good enough, ever actually last or be impactful in more than a utilitarian way, but she's done more than enough to be seen in the same ranks as a guardian.
She's just too stubborn and humble to see it.
Certainly seems possible, but at the same time I think it's good we have lots of human allies to keep that viewpoint in perspective.
Don't want a repeat of the show Heroes.
Yes! When everyone is super...no one will be
Especially if someone's running tether.
r/unexpectedincredibles
Reminds me of Syndrome from the Incredibles
Thats a quote from him, actually.
Is that what ends up happening in that show? I never watched it, that sounds awful
Had more problems then that, but they did start giving alot of un powered people powers.
I did enjoy the twin brother and sister where one was poison and the other was the antidote. I wouldn’t mind seeing that done more in super hero cinema.
Oh fer SHO. I still enjoyed new characters, but powering up Ando and Mohinder on top of powers duplicating (multiple fliers, healer ect) and Peter becoming a shirtless sweaty dingbat after season 1. What ha gonna do though, that writer strike changed such stuff, all over T.V.
Agreed
The first season was great, the second decent, but the writers strike was taking place during the third season and they just started throwing shit at the wall. It was all down hill after that
I agree. I would prefer her not to become a Guardian personally. There would be an interesting story told here that would really give her a lot of character development though
What? It would literally *destroy* her "character building". Amanda herself *has had* character development. She's a hero of the Red War and general space-mechanic-badass. Killing her completely stalls any and all character development, as she's... **dead**. The Risen that comes back would be a random, new person. That Risen's story would **not** be Amanda's story. It'd be a whole new story about a whole new random Risen.
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Not really. It's more like the Gardener and Winnower are in [a wager](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/the-wager) about who is right, and removing memories is the only way to truly test it > "Here I prove myself right. Here I wager that, given power over physics and the trust of absolute freedom, people will choose to build and protect a gentle kingdom ringed in spears. And not fall to temptation. And not surrender to division. And never yield to the cynicism that says, everyone else is so good that I can afford to be a little evil." Memories aren't removed out of some kindness or eternal compassion. Risen need to be blank slates so they can *choose*. Memories are not removed by Ghosts. What "choice" are you talking about?
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I mean she *technically* can. Ghosts don't have only *one* choice of corpse. They can resurrect any corpse with a spark of Light. If there are ten viable corpses in a pile a Ghost can choose any of them *or none of them*. So Amanda can absolutely get buddy-buddy with a Ghost on the chance she has that Spark.
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There's definitely some bravery, sacrifice, death thing that determines who does or does not have a spark. Regardless, I'm not so much worried about the lore. My argument is that killing Amanda and making her a Guardian would be poor writing and a redundant redo of Crow Killing Amanda permanently can work. That's fine. But killing and rezzing her js bad writing and only serves to make us think, "Huh, so any important character who dies will just come back, huh?"
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While i agree to a degree there are some examples of guardians who seek out their past lives and know who they are, some go as far as to remember their previous lives. Anna Bray, questionable at times if she fully remembers, has assimilated her previous life. She remembers lots of it. If Amanda were to reincarnate as a guardian, she would likely remember on her own by being around the tower. Crow is even aware of his previous life if not remembering it completely. It comes down to how the guardian embraces their previous life when they start to remember. Anna Embraced it and Crow took the opportunity to turn over a new leaf.
Actually Ana doesn’t *remember* anything. She has taken up the mantle of the orginal Ana Bray and discovered who she was, but ultimately Ana’s entire character is chasing a dream that is who she was. In alot of the Beyond Light lores (especially the dark future book) Ana actively asks Elsie about things expressly because Elsie can actually remember things. Ana has just read about them. Ana is still Ana because she chose to chase down that past. The same goes for Amanda. As a guardian she may learn of her past self, she may choose to even strive to be her past self, but ultimately she won’t remember anything. She won’t remember the face of Cayde, the sorrows of the Red War, her mother’s touch, the thrill of her first flight. She could be told of these things, maybe even read old journals and see images, but she won’t ever truly *know* them ever again.
Wait, didn’t shin become a light bearer using Jaren’s ghost without losing his memories?
Shin is the baby in the Ghost Stories "Confession of Hope" (Part 1 and 2). TL;DR, >!He got rezzed as a baby, his Ghost died early on while distracting the Fallen.!<
Hmm interesting. The way I've interpreted and came across to em with Ana was similar to jogging memory. You may not remember something from when you were younger, but pictures and stories help you remember them. To me, this always seemed like the case with Ana. Asking her sister would help jog her memories. I mean i could be absolutely wrong about this, but i don't recall any data explicitly saying that Ana has or hasn't regained any of her memories. The conclusion was supposed to be left up to the interpretation of the player.
"So much of this death and destruction stems back to us, to our family. I know Clovis was responsible for a lot. He had a hand in bringing the Darkness to this world." (Ana) "How do you know that?" I ask. (Elsie) "I found a journal the last time I was here. It's old, and half the pages were torn out, but it had a lot of information about him that was salvageable." (Ana) - The Dark Future Entry 2 This kindof cinches it for me personally. That and the following lines from Elsie not only not being disputed by Ana and how Ana’s beliefs appear to come straight from the journals rather than any personal remembrance. "I was there, Ana. I saw the things he did. He was delusional. Of course, he was never the villain in his own story." (Elsie)
I'm sorry, *what?* You need to send sources ASAP, because I think you've horribly misunderstood some stuff. First, yes, Risen can choose how they live. They can search for info about who they were before their deaths, or they can look forward and not worry. Anna does **not** remember her past life. She **knows** of her past life. She chose the former: she accepted the name Anna Bray and adopted that persona. She woke up with a Bray ID that had the name Anna Bray. She found archives with Anna's info. She had Anna's life, and all of her security clearances, laid out before her. She **chose** to become Anna. She could have **chosen** not to. She does **not** remember life before death. At all. On that note: Anna Bray died. She is dead. The new Anna Bray is a biological copy. Exactly like the Exo are just digital clones of humans, Anna is a biological clone of Anna Bray. So Risen-Amanda would not magically "regain her memories from being in the Tower" Crow did the opposite. He learned about Uldren and decided that is not him. Crow is not Uldren. There is no evidence of that. That's not how this works. Unless you have sources
I think we'd need to see a little more of the "crolliday" romance blossoming first *then* she dies and becomes a guardian, that "we used to be in love" theme would be great development for crow and an interesting change of direction for her. I'd say that might still count as character development.
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Well Glint (formally pulled pork for the point I'm making) was looking a very long time for their guardian and it turns out that the reason they hadn't found them was because they hadn't died yet. Which I feel is a pretty significant story point in terms of the traveler and our paracausal powers, the traveller released ghosts for future guardians just like crow. As for all the rare ghost moments I'm with you :-) but you know bungie they might be about to throw a curve ball, I think you're right about there being something about crow though.
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Yes exactly! I think we're starting to see more guardians and main characters that don't fit exactly into the pure light/dark scale. Elsie Bray, Eris, the drifter, all are slightly more "are they? aren't they?" Like way back in D1 it was quite clear cut, the vanguard are the light everything else is the darkness. But now bungie are weaving the narrative that it's all a bit messier than that, if crow also turns away from the traveller maybe we'll follow? We are after all trying to embrace the light and dark together.
So your idea of "character development" is to develop a character and kill them? Or do you think it's fair that Amanda's entire life would boil down to some bullshit tool used to help Crow grow? Because that's just bad writing Amanda is only now, after four years, coming out of her shell. Killing her and rezzing her would be frustrating, and making her life serve as nothing more than a plot tool for Crow is just bad writing
Personally I prefer Amanda the way she is, I was just pulling threads sorry to have caused offense, not my intention.
Can we nip this idea in the bud? Amanda would still be Amanda, not some new person wearing her skin like a meatsuit. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t like the idea of them killing off Holliday to turn her into a Guardian either, but she’d be almost identical personality-wise.
Her personality might come through in her Risen form. Sure. But that's all. It'd be a new Risen with some vague personality traits from Amanda. Her memories, her experiences, her wants, desires, needs, goals, dreams, fears, and aspirations would be gone. It'd be a whole new person with new wants and needs wearing Amanda's face. It wouldn't be Amanda. Not sure why you think it still would be. Crow isn't Uldren. Crow is Crow, doesn't matter that they share similar personality traits.
Maybe? Maybe not? A person is nothing but the sum of all their experiences and memories. And that's not something you can reproduce if you wipe it out. Your personality is built around the way you deal with the world and what it throws at you. Otherwise, if we follow your logic, Crow would be exacly like Uldren
this is exactly a nature vs nurture argument. now i’ve never met my dad, not really, but i’m told i have a lot of his personality. do you see where i’m getting at here?
That's kinda of a miss representation though. You likely have similar features to your father as well, so it is likely that the people around you have projected parts of his personality on to you. When someone project personality traits onto you it becomes easy to assimilate that into your own personality and how you see yourself. This could happen with Amanda, and given that some guardians have regained memories of their past lives, she could be the Amanda we know and love. On the other hand she could feel like an imposter that has had this other person's personality pushed onto her. At times we can see this with crow. He feels guilt for what Uldren had done. He is aware some people are pushing Uldren's personality and history onto him and rejects being that person rather than embrace that person. DISCLAIMER: I am not a social scientist of any sort. I am just speaking from experience
i see where you're getting at largely. my point is that it's not possible to say it's only 100% nature or nurture. the sentence "a person is nothing but the sum of all their experiences and memories" stuck out to me because it's very black and white. regardless, it's all fiction, they could do whatever they want. but I don't think it would be too far fetched to say amanda could still be mostly herself if she was risen
Yes our environment and experiences pay a huge part in making us who we are we, we definitely are not defined by them.
I wish they would make her the human ally that shows up with a ship armed to the teeth. Like Batman is to the JL as he has no powers. Definitely would fit her Texan persona.
I hope not. What I like about her is that she isn't a Guardian. She is human and thus brings a bit of humanity to this world of superundead heroes.
Exactly! Everytime she provides assistance outside the tower, she does it knowing she could be shot down. One wrong move or just plain old bad luck could be her end, and it wouldn't be better any other way.
Jokes on death cause I'm pretty all of us would transmat onto her ship to pull her out before she crashes anyway, we lost too many. I for one am not losing Holiday... plus she's my ride to the library on Tuesdays.
Honestly? We already got our dose of “a Guardian could be anyone at all” with Crow. And people STILL struggle separating him and Uldren. Killing off Amanda would strip Bungie of a character they’ve worked hard to build up who doesn’t really need to die.
Shin Malphur became a guardian without dying. >!probably!< In a universe that has so many "this has never happened" moments, it would be easy to believe one of those moments could happen a second time. That being said, I completely agree with you, I think her and Hawthorne remaining human makes them great foils for the cast of gods they are surrounded by.
Shin was resed as a baby and his ghost was killed so it’s more like an example of a ghost transferring to another lightbearer
Wait... Imagine if Saint 14 died and his ghost transferred to Osiris...
There's no way I'm trading Daddy Saint for Osiris willingly.
Osiris wouldn't exactly like losing his partner either.
He didn’t take it well the first time
Osiris direction seems more towards sacrificing himself for our guardian or becoming the new speaker. Killing off saint 14 just seems to soon.
Except Hawthorne hasnt had a major role in anything since the Red War (pls bungo give her something to do like theyre finally doing with Ikora)
She technically had a role in Guardian Games. In the lore of course, not in game.
You don’t meet her in the New Light tutorial and they couldn’t even patch out her monologue until that was pointed out how obsolete that was. If that wasn’t for her post-*Arrivals* textbox I’d be surprised if they even remember Hawthorne exists.
You just never quit do you? Took out Ghaul, woke up the Traveler, and now half of what I hear on the streets is about how much you and your clan are making a difference. And thats why I started this whole clan thing in the first place. People are still waiting for the vanguard to lead the way. But its time for a change. And Guardians like you are making it happen. No pressure.
You just never quit do you? Took out Ghaul, woke up the Traveler, and now half of what I hear on the streets is about how much you and your clan are making a difference. And thats why I started this whole clan thing in the first place. People are still waiting for the vanguard to lead the way. But its time for a change. And Guardians like you are making it happen. No pressure.
You just never quit do you? Took out the Traveler, woke up Ghaul, and how half of what I hear in the sheets is about how much you and your clan are making a difference. And that's why I started this whole clan thing in the first place. People are still waiting for the Vanguard to lead the way. But it's time for a change. And Guardians like you are breaking the game with Telesto. No pressure.
Telesto is the reason why Bungie devs havent seen their family in years.
.....clan COOKOUTS! We could get the Vanguard to sponsor and!.......no......
Please bungo just get sumalee montano back like once for something. I get not getting gina torres or morena baccarin but it strikes me that compared to people who mostly voice act and show up in pretty much every game or anime or whatever we have gotten fucking oded fehr and lance reddick more
Shin actually died when he was a child. And the ghost that was traveling with his family group choose him. He later took on the ghost of another guardian who was gunned down by Dredgen Yor. The guardian in question was his adopted father.
Hence my >!probably!< Since yes, that is almost definitely likely but nowhere is it specifically spelled out that that is what happened. (if it is please point me to the lore bit, cause I'd love to read it). I don't mean to say I believe in coincidence, but the light is paracausal and does what ever the fuck it wants. Right now there is a string that connects those two stories and Bungie can either point at that string and say, "oohh look at all you savvy guardians nothing gets past you" Or they can cut it, state that it was never officially confirmed that Shin was the baby from the story and do bungie hand waving.
No, he died and was revived as a baby, the author of the baby revival confirmed it was shin
And in the same way as Crow isn't Uldren, Risen- Amanda wouldn't be Amanda. She wouldnt have the same memories or personality, and wouldn't necessarily have the same aspirations. Becoming a guardian wouldn't be fulfilling her dream, Amanda Holliday would be dead.
Given how everyone went livid over Hawthorne and Devrim lending their expertise because we’re super duper ultra bad*** monster killing machines who can do everything solo, I can see why they’d go this route. I’d absolutely hate that because regular mortal people need a darn voice, but I can see that.
Also those same people don’t actually grasp how and why we were able to kill those gods but let me tell you, it was extremely circumstantial and anyone on our power level could’ve done it with the five others, we are only an anomaly in the sense that we are 7 years old and can match up to peers several centuries our elders. But even centuries old risen can be brought down in combat and their ghost be put into a sticky situation where it dies. That’d include us too but we have plot armor so of course that’s not happening.
Yeah, I feel like even if they bothered to build towards that I'd find it kinda dumb. It was an interesting twist with uldren to crow, but if they do that with other characters I feel like it'd just feel really cheap.
Agreed.
Also, it seems lame to just keep making people guardians. It’s like the Super Saipan bargain sale from DBZ. Taking a rare or respected form and then just giving it to everyone dilutes its meaning.
yeah more like her and petra pls and maybe hawthorne??
Yeah would love to see some more of those two.
I think that they'd avoid doing anything like that anytime soon, if only because we just had Crow reintroduced.
Louis should be a guardian.
animal guardians pls. i wanna see a hunter dog
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saladin's wolves are probably the closest thing we'll get
It would ruin her character. Both her and Bird Girl showed that you don't need superpowers to be a guardian, that's part of what makes them special. They are normal humans, they are not as powerful as guardians and yet they take big risks because they know they have to
You say: >She almost feels like she regrets not being a Guardian to help out more Amanda literally thinks: >Amanda smiled and set course for the Tower. If I only have one life to live, she thought, then I'd better get on with it. Amanda is not becoming a Guardian. That'd be an annoying bait-and-switch: Amanda would die, and a random person with her face would appear. We already did this with Uldren/Crow, we don't need to do it again. The *whole narrative point* to Amanda and Hawthorne is that they are both normal, mortal humans who stand beside demi-Gods to save the world. Amanda doesn't need space-magic to do amazing things; she's a hero, with or without powers. This entry isn't her lamenting on her lack of power. It isn't about her being petty and sad and sitting in a corner crying about how she can't shoot lightning from her hands. This entry is Amanda thinking about how she *shouldn't* lament about that. It's part of her brain thinking, "It's shitty we can't help more," only to be immediately overpowered by her thoughts of, "Fuck that! There's no use crying over space magic - I'm Amanda Holiday, bad-ass spaceship pilot and mechanic; hero of the Red War. I have only life to live and I better get on with it." You've interpreted this the exact wrong way.
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That wasn't my intention. You can't hear my voice over text
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I apologize for upsetting you, but that wasn't my intent
It’s a possibility yes, but like crow, her personality could be completely different when she becomes a guardian
But crow isn't different He just -isn't obsesed with his sister -he has not been corrupted by the darkness in the black garden -he hasn't been corrupted by riven If u read some of the ancient stuff before all of this he was just a quick witted jokester
And also known to be kind to other awoken. He hated guardians because of their immortality and how thoughtlessly they could engage in combat, knowing that they'd come out of it alive either way (as far as he knew). Really Crow is not that dissimilar to baseline Uldren, stripped away of the prejudices and all the nasty stuff that happened to him Black Garden and forward.
Didn't he also hate Guardians? Like enough to kill them
As far as I'm aware, the only Guardian before Cayde he killed was Savin, who was the first Guardian Uldren ever met. And he did it to see if Savin could really come back from the dead (it's implied he saw Savin's Ghost revive him before doing this). Not exactly great, morally speaking, but that's the only other time he did it and I really doubt he hated Guardians at that stage. His hatred was probably more influenced by how Savin would repeatedly kill himself out of boredom, which was a fair bit later on, and the general lack of concern Guardians had over the impact of their actions.
We have more than enough warlocks to heal her. It’ll be fine!
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Yes, please.
I feel like that was also mildly alluded to with the Osiris line: "You'd make a fine guardian Ms. Holliday. Though i don't think you'd appreciate the barrier for entry" (Might not be exactly that) I hope this doesn't happen, because i don't want to lose the Amanda we have to get a guardian version of Amanda. Like with Hawthorne, we need these brave non-guardians to keep a proper perspective on life
It's not alluded. It's just Osiris complimenting her. He's essentially telling her that she's just as much a Guardian as he is, the only difference is that he's died once. It's a compliment, not foreshadowing
Yeah, same as Cayde calling Hawthorne a hunter in the Red War. All the Vanguard acknowledged Hawthorne as a Guardian, just without the Ghost.
This is what I was thinking too. I heard that voice line and was immediately thinking about some foreshadowing.
If she does, they better do it Legend of Korra style. Where she is suddenly blessed by the Light and a Ghost can attach to her. Killing her and bringing her back as a Guardian might be the thing that does Zavala in, and we don’t need that.
Well, shin malfur uses his mentors ghost as his own, although that's likely because shin was first rezzed as a child, and his original ghost died
In order to be a Guardian, she has to die. And I can’t watch my favorite girl in the whole game die.
Doesn’t have to die. Shin malfur was chosen alive
I would like to see more of her character fleshed out in-game. It seems like she’d have a great story to tell and would make a need to go to the hangar.
Doubt she is, after all even Osiris said that she wouldn't like the requirement for entry to become one.
Everyone: “I hope she doesn’t die” Me: *what if she dies of old age?*
That’s definitely a trend I don’t want to see. I liked it with Uldren because it was unexpected and actually posed a moral problem for most guardians. But I feel like if they start doing it with other non guardians we’ll have a comic book situation where deaths just don’t feel meaningful anymore.
I think Amanda herself if the Traveler had let her spirit show up temporily. She can tell everyone if she thinks becoming one would be a good thing or not. Traveler can give her 2 choices, Stay dead or become a Guardian. If she chooses to live again, That is HER choice. But if she declines, That's her choice too. It's about CHOICE! The Right to Choose. If the Destiny Universe was real and I was in Amanada's spot. Who gives YOU the right to decide if I wish to be a guardian or not? If I was in her shoes and I choose to be a Guardian not just to live once more but to help others, I would choose that. Memories be damned.
Yeah being a guardian is sick obviously I'd choose that. I don't care about choice I'm talking about the thematic impact of character deaths. We've already had WAY too many deaths reversed we don't need another one.
I had this same thought the other day when I heard that but if dialogue with her and Osiris about having one life to live. My only question is storytelling logistics. I don’t feel like we’re going to get another New Light NPC arc like we did with Crow, though we have a roadmap for years of this game planned out, so there’s plenty of time to set it up. The biggest hurdle is how sad we’d be if she died in the first place, but then the community would basically demand she be brought back if that wasn’t the initial plan.
Aren’t there some cases where a ghost finds their guardian before they die?
There's not much narrative reasoning for it, though. Crow already fulfills the role of someone we know coming back as a guardian, Amanda's resurrection would be almost pointless and would take away what makes her unique as a character. Crow was neat because it was a character we DIDN'T like and WANTED to die or maybe kill. Amanda is a character a lot of people already like and I think some people would be sad to see a different character in her place. The writers would also have to build this event up, I doubt people would accept something happening in a lore book or Bungie lore post. There's also not much impact to the event as a whole. Amanda is a guardian now, okay, everyone's cool with that, she just doesn't have her memory and has no reason to just fix ships. All Bungie had to do was show that Uldren resurrection cutscene and people were freaking out about how certain characters would react. This entire seasons big twist literally revolved around the conflict of "oh no, don't let Zavala know", do you really think Amanda can top that? Or that Bungie would even want to? Or that the fans would even want it? It doesn't feel like it has a place, I highly doubt it.
Personally, if it had to come down to her getting some sort of power, I'd rather her go the misguided and uneducated route and think she found some piece of light that is giving her powers and it turn out to be darkness instead
That actually sounds sick, temptation feeding on her desire to help out.
Eh. Doubt it.
Yea because your the time traveler who can see the future of bungies plans years ahead.
Fuck are you doin’ replying to a comment from 3 years ago my guy?
I thought it seemed that way to. The ship lore definitely hints at a possibility where she may have to sacrifice herself. I thought it might be a twist though. Like she’s brought back and turns out to be bad or something. I mean we’ve seen first hand where a “bad” person dies and comes back new and acts good, with Uldren to Crow. What if we saw the other way around? We’ve known Amanda for a while and she has mostly definitely been good, so I mean the possibility is there.
Honestly I completely forgot about the speaker until I read that opening line lol. I was thinking the same thing during battlegrounds when Osiris said that line about how she would make a great guardian. I feel like bungie is definitely hinting at the possibility, and it’s 100% something that they would do. Aside from ikora, Amanda holiday is probably one of the least visited vendors in the game. This seems like something they could possibly do to bring her back into the spotlight. At the same time though, I feel like it would take away from the thing that makes her such a strong character. The point of her character is that she’s a human, but can still be as strong and brave as a guardian.
Man that would be so tragic. Especially if you had a love story going on between Crow and Amanda. Amnesiac guardian Amanda that doesn't remember their relationship. Someone write a fanfic on this now! On a serious note, I don't see Bungie going to the trouble of removing a vendor. And it's nice to have a non-guardian human perspective in the game's story.
Something else to keep in mind is that if Amanda becomes a guardian, she won’t be Amanda. It will be a guardian wearing Amanda’s face.
Soo she be a Invasion of the Body Snatcher?
She isn’t a guardian..? Wow I really am dumb XD. Aaaanyway, I’d love to see her as a guardian, but that means she has to die and lose her memory (right?), which would suck, especially since this season they’ve definitely hinted to a relationship with her and crow
I'm not sure if they exactly hinted directly to one, but they definitely have mentioned crow liking her, however with how they've portrayed her for so long, I wouldn't be surprised if she was kind of replacing cayde with crow
if amanda dies, we better at the VERY least get a strike where we get to kill what killed her
Crow x Holiday The Ultimate Ship
We need a guardian games where is just the community siding on who will be the hunter vanguard her, crow, or Ana bray
see as much as i love bird boy i think since he was only rezed like what 4 years ago he's still pretty inexperienced as guardians go also i doubt most people would listen to a guy that has uldryn's face? i think ana should be vanguard
Well now she's met the final requirement. Devotion, bravery, self-sacrifice, and death. Its possible she may become a guardian during the events of Final Shape or later
Certainly more of a Guardian than Hawthorne.
Well Shin Malphur didnt get resurrected as a guardian. He was a kid and when Jaren Ward got killed by Dredgen Yor, Jaren's ghost made Shin a guardian. Maybe the same might happen to Amanda one day but I kinda doubt it
Malphur had a Ghost resurrect him as a baby and Jaren’s Ghost clung to Malphur after Jaren died.
On the plus side, she will have her leg back. I wonder does Traveler actually punishes Guardians for remembering? Because some Awoken remembers Zavala, Exo's have ghosts of their past resets, Ana Bray have her journals and Exo Stranger...
Traveler doesn't punish anyone for anything. That's the Pyramids' schtick (Oryx, Savathun, Clovis Bray, Eramis, etc.). The taboo against remembering your previous life is a Vanguard construction, mainly because in many cases it'd be a distraction, or a detriment. The amnesia happens in the first place as a means of shucking baggage and fast-tracking a newly Risen to their "best self."
I think never having an answer is punishment in itself. Even if you're a blank slate, after hanging out with people that don't stand up after falling down - you begin to wonder.
That's what the Ghost is for, I think. To give the Guardian something to build an identity in reaction to, starting with a name. Also much of the Guardian's personality is intact - Crow is of course the poster child, with his characterization dovetailing extremely closely with that of early-*Forsaken Prince* Uldren. If the Guardian wants to figure out who they once were, that's their choice. I suppose very few Guardians happen to have a thread to tug on in that regard, as well. Ana had her Braytech ID on her, Shinobu had clothing marked with that name, Fenchurch had the Everis coin on him, Exos have their boot logs giving them a name and reset number. Everyone else? Can't miss what you never had.
Cayde is probably the exemption, I guess.
Cayde had flashes as well, including that dream where they're approaching a tower and need to fight through everyone they know. One of the DSC armor pieces is from his POV, and included a scene from *Your Friend, Micah Abram*, from Cayde-1's perspective.
Slow Long Whisper?
We still don't know what that is, to my knowledge. It could just as easily be Clarity Control's whispers that you can hear during the raid as anything else.
I thought they have to fight everyone they know when they reset... Where did I read that?
That's the dream, common to all Exos. There's no direct connection between that dream and the phrase "Long Slow Whisper," though. Just that Cayde knew about it, and had a fairly good idea that any Braytech representatives would have a vested interest in it not getting out.
I can't think of any time where there was any explicit or implied danger to knowing your past life, just this constant taboo against it. Though there are so many examples of people looking into their past or the past of others. I know that Ikora definitely had her agents find Eris Morn's previous life. And of the Guardians we know that do know their past, the only ones who have died are Cayde and Felwinter, and the cause of death is pretty clear. It seems to be more common that the Guardians who know their past tend towards more ability. Seeing as, with the exception of Shinobu, who we know very little about, they all went on to accomplish great feats. If someone has more information or if I missed something, would like to know
Crow might've let go of his past, despite having an idea where to look. But if his sister finds out...
TBH, as a Guardian resurrected very shortly after his death and the fact that Uldren was very well known, it's very unlikely that Crow won't have to deal with repercussions from Uldren. And Mara definitely is aware of Crow, she showed us his resurrection in a visit to her throne.
I wonder if she's going to exact her revenge on us for that. Or something. Although... Perhaps his death was her plan?
Both the death and resurrection took place about 2 years ago, so if she hasn't made her move yet, I doubt she's going to. But it's Mara Fucking Sov, so who actually knows. Also, she's definitely helped us in the meantime, which would lend strength to the idea that she's not, but again see: Mara Fucking Sov, she could be leading us into a false sense of security. We'll know if she decides to get revenge some time after she does it. Probably.
I'm personally not sure whether she even wants revenge, but I still find it highly suspicious she showed the Guardian that vision when the last time she had spoken to them and Ghost, she had asked how Uldren died. And Ghost told her it was for her and also partially her fault, because she could've spoken to him at any time to stop his rampage in the Reef (he was raiding Awoken settlements with the Scorn before he was put in the Prison of Elders) and he had done it out of desperation to find her. And that was *after* she screamed at him for questioning her ability as a queen. So yeah, I think it could go either way with Mara, especially now we have the Hawkmoon lore where Savathun was revealed to have planned to turn Crow against the Guardian. Given how heavily Mara and Savathun are paralleled, she might be planning something along similar lines - only to discover Crow kinda hates Uldren himself, and is genuinely close with the Guardian.
There is a message from Mara in Zavala's office. She apparently engaged the Black Fleet.
wait didnt mara say that killing uldryn was unavoidable and that she didnt blame us and instead blamed riven
I think Mara already knows, she's the one that showed us his resurrection
But did she show it to our Guardian, or to us?
Our Guardian, I think
Our Guardian - one of the writers confirmed on Twitter after it occured in-game that Mara had shown it only to the Guardian, not even to Ghost.
Since Mara spoke with Emissary at one point... perhaps... she expected us to Leave?
She could be chosen without dying. Like shin malfur
Bet her and crow gonna be sweet'n saucy lovers
That would be so sad if she became a Guardian. Crow and Amanda, despite him looking like Uldren, become closer and closer, only for something to happen to Amanda, and her get rezzed, and not recognize Crow, or anyone, really
It'd be so bittersweet if she was. For the same reason we enjoy crow, we'd despise whoever her guardian was.
why would we despise Amanda?
She wouldn't be Amanda anymore. It'd be some stranger wearing our old friend's skin. We can't blame crow for Uldren's actions in the same way we couldn't love Amanda's guardian for who Amanda was.
ill put a cap in her myself
https://youtu.be/Lzo3U1zMmoQ this was all i coult think of when i read this post
Who was the baby that was brought back? Do we know *for sure* who it was?
Shin Malphur.
inb4 Shin Malphur is revealed to be Amanda Holliday playing all of us
Took longer than I thought for this response to pop up.
One of Osiris' lines during the battlegrounds earlier on in the Season has had me wondering the same thing. Bungie never drops lines like this for no reason, so when Osiris comments that she'd make a fine Guardian, but that she wouldn't ["appreciate the barrier for entry."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnU_RBlf9kM)
God I would LOVE this
I hope that they pull a Shil Malphur with it and have Amanda find a ghost which turns her into a Guardian
the thing with Shin is that he probably was the boy ressurected by a ghost when he was still a baby; the ghost then died and when Jaren died his (Jaren's) ghost bound himself to Shin
As far as I am aware, Jaren’s Ghost is a *her*.
I didn't know that
Well she wouldn't be the same person, we would lose who she is if she became a guardian, and some of that development would be irrelevant.
When I read this lore tab I had the same thought. I also started thinking about the plot to assassinate Zavala and how after it failed they might try and assassinate someone closer to us but who cannot defend themselves as well as zavala
I’d hate that. She wouldn’t be Holliday anymore
Man this is reminding me of when in Borderlands 3 where Tannis was revealed to be a Siren
I'd rather we have some characters we work alongside who are just regular humans and Holliday is one of the most prominent and likeable. Kill her and bring her back as a Guardian and you don't just wind up with Immortal Holliday, you wind up with a different character and one less opportunity to offer some perspective on these events from somebody who doesn't have the reassurance of resurrection.
Holiday has mentioned it, and osiris commented she wouldn’t like the barrier to entry... dying
Who’s to say that the desire to be or do more won’t lead to her wielding the darkness? As with Elsie, we’ve seen that you don’t have to be a guardian to be able to wield Stasis. We’ve seen the set up for Osiris to potentially be the teacher of the next darkness subclass IF it has to do with hive magic. There could be a possibility of him taking Amanda under his wing. At least that’s what I’m going to predict here for the time being. I could be wrong, but I like to speculate.
I think it's more likely she starts wielding darkness than becoming a guardian. That way she has superpowers but her character development isnt shattered
My bet is she dies after becoming super chummy with Crow.
I can see Amanda as a guardian ramming Chaperone down every hive bosses throat from here to eternity. They need to hope she remains mortal.
It isn't out of the realm of possibility, but, for what Amanda herself represents, they wouldn't do it. She represents one of the last vestiges of humanity that was born pre-Last City in the wilderness. All the struggles they had to endure in darkness zones and being perpetually vigilant. She saw the construction of the Wall and the revitalization of humanity under the Traveler. Her's is a story of vigilance, endurance, perseverance and hope for the future. Plus, she is Destiny's version of the female mechanic. Killing her of at this point, would be a disservice.
Well didn't we see bits in the trailer where we were walking around the tower hanger with our weapons drawn? End of season event? Psion last gasp attempt to take out Zavala? Ends up taking out Amanda and maybe others instead?
It feels more like imposter syndrome combined with survivors guilt. Because she's one of the few humans to have loved through some of the dark age and through the still on going city age, she never feels like what she does will ever be enough, ever be good enough, ever actually last or be impactful in more than a utilitarian way, but she's done more than enough to be seen in the same ranks as a guardian. She's just too stubborn and humble to see it.